WEBVTT - Clay Talks With Will Cain 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.080 Welcome in Wins and Lost his podcast. I'm Clay Travis, 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:05.480 appreciate all of you hanging out with us. Excited to 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:08.319 bring in Will Kine now, who is now I think 0:00:08.320 --> 0:00:11.200 officially a part of Fox News. Prior to that, he 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:15.319 was with ESPN for several years. Will, thanks for joining us, 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:17.639 my man. I've been watching you for for years and 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:20.840 been impressed with your radio show UH and UH and 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:24.400 your career in general. How excited are you to be 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:26.759 going back to the future, I guess a little bit 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:29.080 and going back into the political realm a little bit 0:00:29.080 --> 0:00:31.720 more than the sports realm. We'll get to both, but 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:34.479 tell everybody what your newest gig is going to be. 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:39.840 I am only a little more excited to be joining 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:41.680 Fox News than I am to be talking to you 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:45.040 Clay Travis today. You and I have known each other, 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:48.960 talked offline, met in person, want and I have certainly 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:52.120 read your stuff, watched your material, listen to your radio 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:55.040 show over the years. I think you do an awesome job. 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:58.880 You're one of the few rational people in media, and 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:00.680 I'm excited, I think, for the first time, for you 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:03.720 and I to ever be talking on the air. But 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:06.759 just a little bit more excited than that I am 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:09.200 joining Fox News. I will be the new weekend co 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:12.880 host of Fox and Friends on Saturday and Sunday mornings 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:16.840 six at ten am Eastern Time. So that is awesome. Um, 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:20.160 And obviously for people out there who know, that's been 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:24.160 a prominent launching ground. Right, So you've got a great 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:26.360 gig now, and I'm sure you're gonna do an incredible job, 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:28.000 and I think you're gonna be very good at it. 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:31.280 But when you're part of that family, there are other 0:01:31.360 --> 0:01:35.279 opportunities that could arise. So I'm sure you'll be used 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:39.160 and utilized in a wide variety of ways across all 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:42.360 of Fox News at different times. Right. That may be, 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:45.479 but I will say claim my priority walking through that 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:49.120 door is to continue to make Fox and Friends one 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:51.880 of the best shows in cable news. I know you 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:56.360 saw this because it's a fascinating stat a resounding win. 0:01:56.480 --> 0:02:00.240 But Fox News primetime opinion shows eight to eleven are 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:04.720 not just beating their quote unquote competitors at CNN and MSNBC, 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:08.519 not just the most watched television shows in cable news, 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:12.360 but now they are beating network prime time shows on 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:16.760 the ABC in CBS. It shouldn't happen, Clay, It's beyond well. 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:19.240 It simply should not be happening because you and I 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:23.000 both know network television is distributed to more homes than 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:26.600 cable television. My goal is to make that same thing 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:29.280 happen for Fox and Friends on the weekend, may get 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:32.880 the most watch program in all of television. That's an 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:34.560 amazing goal, and it's one that a lot of people 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:36.960 would have said was crazy when Fox News was founded 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:40.040 so many years ago. We'll get to your current gig 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:42.160 and how you got there, but on wins and losses, 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:45.200 I like to talk with people about where they started 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:47.919 and how they ended up where they are. So let's 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:51.480 go back in time two years and years ago. You 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:54.839 were born in the state of Texas. What was your 0:02:55.040 --> 0:03:00.799 growing up experience like there and how important was sports 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:05.600 to your overall development into what you became. I grew 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:08.639 up in a small town outside of Dallas, Sherman, Texas. 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:11.200 It's a town of about thirty five thousand people. It's 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:14.600 not a suburb of Dallas. It is a standalone rural 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:18.320 community about sixties sixty five miles north of Dallas. I 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:21.200 loved the way I grew up. It was one town 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:24.040 with one high school, with one middle school, and everybody 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:27.399 was integrated. When I grew up Clay that basically meant 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:30.880 black and white. We all went to school together. My 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:35.000 dad was an attorney. He was a plaintiffs lawyer. He 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:40.320 essentially then worked on contingency fiezas entire life. I told 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:43.360 your colleague Bobby Burak, this, that means if you win, 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:45.520 you make money, and if you leave, you make nothing more. 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:48.960 So that built me. That framed me when I made 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:51.680 my career choices. I knew that I wanted to hit 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:55.000 home runs. Everything I thought about when it came to 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:58.280 my career was if there is a ceiling. I'm not 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:01.560 that interested. Now We'll tell you as I've gotten older 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:04.760 and I've learned from others successes, and the truth is, 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:06.840 I think it's a big part of your success story. 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:10.600 Singles and doubles stacked up over time are the real 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:14.560 secret to success. Yes, people hit it over the fence. Yes, 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:17.680 people create Internet startups that they flip for billions of 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:20.839 dollars overnight or in six months. But most of the 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:23.480 time success is built the way Tom Brady built it. 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:26.279 It's built the way where Warren Buffett built it, and 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:29.040 I've come to appreciate that that's how my career will 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:30.960 be as well, because this has been a long time 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:33.839 in the making. It has been working for free on 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:36.680 numerous occasions. It's been working for less than my market 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:40.200 rate for most of my career. And those sacrifices are 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:42.800 essentially the singles I'm stacking up at some point for 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:44.720 what I hope adds up to a big run on 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:47.159 the scoreboard. Yeah, you know what, it's It's an interesting 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:49.840 part and I want to unpack that a little bit. Um. 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:52.039 One of the things I love about these conversations and 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:54.000 wins and losses is there's a lot of young people 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:57.000 who listen, right because a lot of people look at 0:04:57.040 --> 0:05:00.599 the final destination and say, oh, I want to go there, 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:04.200 but they don't necessarily look at all of the steps 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:07.720 along the way to the final destination. And uh. And 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:10.839 I always like to ask people where they got their start. 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:14.159 What was the first media job you had? And do 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:18.160 you remember what you got paid to do it? So 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:20.279 you used two words, and I'm gonna have to answer 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:22.479 the question two ways because of the use of those 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:25.680 two words. You said media and job. I didn't have 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:28.440 a job for quite some time, but I was in 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:31.520 media for quite some time. So the first thing I 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:34.320 did out of law school, Clay is I wanted to 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:36.599 get involved in media, but at that time it meant 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:38.800 write a book. So the first thing I did after 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:41.120 my formal education is I set out to write the 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:44.599 Great American novel. Yeah, I can spare you it was crap. 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:47.640 It wasn't Great American. So that was fascinating. So where 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:50.039 did you What was your day to day like? So 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:51.800 when you graduate, let me go back for a minute, 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:53.880 because I want to circle bling around to the American novel. 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:56.920 So you went to if I'm correct, you went to Pepperdine. 0:05:56.960 --> 0:05:59.479 So you talked about growing up in in this kind 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:03.080 of not a big city in Texas. That's a big trip. 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:05.520 What was your experience like, because I'll tell you mine. 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:07.680 I grew up in Nashville, which is, you know, a 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:10.320 decent sized city, but I went away to college at 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:12.920 George Washington, d C. It was a total culture shock. 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:17.240 I can't even imagine for you what going from Texas 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:20.640 to Pepperdine for people who don't know out in Malibu 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:23.279 must have been like for a Texas kid to find 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:27.039 himself in l a it was total culture shock. You know, 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:28.839 I later in life and we'll get there if we 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:31.040 need to move to New York City with my wife. 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:33.200 And it wasn't half the culture shock of an eighteen 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:37.440 year old movement from Sherman, Texas to southern California. And 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:41.120 here's why it was such a shock. Um College for 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:46.800 me was about athletics and it was about friendship. Eventually, 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:49.960 all my buddies went to Baylor in Texas and Texas 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:52.359 A and M, and they were doing the fraternity and 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:54.840 college football thing, and I felt like I was missing 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:58.039 out incredibly. On top of that, I was playing water 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:02.240 polo at Pepperdine and it was an absolute exercise over 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:05.240 four years in humility. Bottom line, man, I just wasn't 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:08.040 very good. I walked on and I'm proud of myself 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:11.080 for sticking through it and never quitting. But every day 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:15.440 it practiced. It was ego crushing humility, which is an 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:18.720 awesome life lesson. But in the beginning it was really 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:20.920 hard for me. After a year of being with my 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:24.760 teammates and making friends and relationships and putting in the 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:27.960 application to transfer to the University of Texas or s 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:30.680 m U, I decided I'm gonna stick this out. I 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:32.600 have the relationships I want to be on the team. 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:35.840 So I stayed at Pepperdine and I do think it 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:40.720 was personally a growth moment. But I would encourage anybody 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:44.600 out there, whatever your final education destination is, be it 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:49.080 medical school, law school, college, high school, make that be 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:51.680 in the place that you want to live. You should 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:55.040 finish your education where you want to start your career. 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:58.560 That's fascinating. So it's interesting you said that about your 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:02.240 sort of cultural disconnect and how tough it was. I 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:05.080 felt the same way. I put in applications after my 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:07.920 first year at George Washington. I was like, man, I 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:12.000 don't like this. Uh it's very East Coast um. People 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:14.880 are kind of assholes. It's very different than what I 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:17.160 was used to in the South. And I think in 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:20.760 retrospect also, I was soft, right, I mean I was. 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:22.960 I think like a lot of eighteen year old kids, 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:25.400 you think you're tough, you think you're smart, but then 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:27.320 you kind of get punched in the face a little 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:29.320 bit with the reality of life, and not that the 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:32.319 reality of life necessarily is reflected on a college campus 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:34.560 where you're still in a little bit of a cocoon, 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:37.800 but I was I'll be straightforward, I think I was 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:40.280 kind of a pussy at eighteen and nineteen years old 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:43.600 and being in a city setting and having to grow 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:45.840 up a little bit at least, and living in a 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:48.800 in a decent sized East Coast city. I came to 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:52.680 love Washington, d C. But I almost came back South 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:55.360 after my freshman year because I was like, this just 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:59.720 isn't a traditional college experience. And I've always been glad 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:02.400 that I was tough enough to stick it out and 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:05.240 that I didn't bail and transfer somewhere else. Not to 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:08.080 say that everybody out there who thinks about transferring it's 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:10.880 the wrong decision, but it sounds like for you and 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:14.360 for me, there was a there was a positive in 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:17.520 sticking it out and being tough enough, even if it 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:20.600 wasn't necessarily the same perfect experience that maybe we saw 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:23.800 others seem to be having. I love one thing you said. 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:27.000 You indicted yourself you were soft, and I felt the 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:29.480 same way, and that's guided me through a lot of 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:32.000 decisions I've made later in life. I just believe in 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:36.040 challenging yourself. I believe in being challenged intellectually in debate, 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:39.760 physically moving around, being around people are different than you. 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:42.560 That's why I went to California the first place. It's 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:44.600 why I moved to New York. It's why I send 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:47.640 my sons to school in Harlem. I think life should 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:49.760 be fairly hard. I think you should be put in 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:52.920 uncomfortable positions. I think you should be challenged, and I 0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:55.240 think you should learn to grow through that. This is 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:56.960 probably why you and I agree on so many things 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:00.480 happening in this country. Where everybody protects themselves not just 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:07.000 from uncomfortable, unchallenging concepts, but from disagreement. We're creating generations, 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:12.120 and I use plural, generations of soft people unprepared for 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.599 the real world. Yeah, and look, and it's not necessarily 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:18.840 those people's fault either. Because you mentioned the parenting decision, 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:21.040 and we'll get into stead. There's all sorts of fascinating 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:24.360 decisions there for how you raise your kids. But I 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:26.880 think so much of our culture is about safety, is 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:29.920 m and bubble wrapping kids, and certainly the coronavirus is 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:32.800 this story in many ways writ large, what is like 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:35.719 I jotted down, uh, yesterday I was talking about in 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:37.840 my radio show, and I kind of keep notes you know, 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:40.840 one of the most essential questions that seems to come 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:43.880 up over and over again with the coronavirus is what 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:47.600 is acceptable risk and who gets to determine what that 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:51.240 acceptable risk is because you and I may feel, hey, 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:54.160 we're willing to take risk. I said this, Uh, you 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:58.240 know earlier today I took my kindergartener and walked him 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:01.880 to school. Physically in school. I think it's important for 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:04.640 my kids to be physically president school. I think it's 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:07.360 important for college football to be happening. But more important 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:09.280 than that, I think kids in college need to be 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:12.320 in school. They need to learn how to handle risk 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:16.719 and assess it and not constantly like be told that 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:20.199 it's brave to quit right like. That troubles me when 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:21.760 I hear people say, oh, it's so brave of the 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:24.400 Big Ten and the Pact twelve to quit and not 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:27.600 play sports this fall. Well, when did we start definding 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:31.480 bravery as the absence of something as opposed to the 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:34.400 action of something? Right? Um, So that that troubles me. 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:36.679 I'm gonna let you kind of get into this too, 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:40.040 But I think that's where we have very many agreements on. Now, 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:42.560 you went to law school, you came back to Texas. 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:45.760 I came back home and went to UH, went to Vanderbilt, 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:48.439 so we're somewhat similar in that respect. How did the 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:51.920 law school help you? How did it challenge you? How 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:55.200 did it help you to grow in UH? In your career? 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:57.280 Would you advise kids who are probably a lot of 0:11:57.280 --> 0:11:59.360 them listening to us out there? Like I get this 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:01.640 ask question all the time. I bet you two as well. 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:05.040 Would you go to law school? I say yes because 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:08.240 of how much I learned? What about you? So this 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:10.760 conversation is awesome because we're bouncing all over the place 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:13.600 and following our curiosity. I'm afraid I'm leaving questions unanswered. 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:15.200 I never want to do that. You asked about my 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:17.600 career path, I'm always happy to return to it, but 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:20.640 this one is something I'm also very interested in your response. 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:25.400 So I have become very pessimistic on the future of 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:28.959 higher education. Clay, I am all talk right now because 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:31.640 my oldest son is twelve. I still have six years 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:33.160 to figure out if I'm going to commit to paying 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:37.760 for college, but right now I have serious, grave doubts 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:41.120 about paying hundreds of thousands of dollars a year or 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:44.240 seeing my son's going to debt at the levels of 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:46.680 hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to go to 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:49.520 an institution that brainwashes them into ideas that I do 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:52.640 not believe. And I don't care, as I've stated, if 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:54.960 they're exposed to ideas that I disagree with. What I 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:57.079 care about is whether or not they're getting to be 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:00.480 exposed to any form of disagreement, because that's out college 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:04.120 is turned into a place of one sidedness and safe 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:07.760 spaces and protection from any form of disagreement. So I'm 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:11.920 generally pessimistic about higher education in the United States. But 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:15.920 that being said, Man law school was invaluable. It helps 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:18.560 me and everything I do. I know it does the 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:20.280 same for you because I listened to you, and I 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:23.800 hear how you think through things and how you frame conversations. 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:27.440 Law school simply organized my thoughts. I had a lot 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:29.679 of different thoughts going in different directions when I came 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:31.720 out of college. I kind of thought I knew what 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:34.480 I thought about certain issues, but I never had them 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:37.400 nailed down, and I never understood how they connected to 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:41.160 each other, if I was being inconsistent or hypocritical, or 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:44.559 if I was contradicting myself. Law school helped me build 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:47.760 a framework, both an obvious one when I learned constitutional 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:51.080 law and the founding principles and documents of this country, 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:55.400 but also just philosophically what makes sense, like what values 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:58.400 connect with each other and which ones undercut the others. 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:03.120 Law school, to me, absolutely informs everything I do on television, 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:06.199 everything I do behind the scenes, and how I've organized 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:08.959 my career when I've been entrepreneurial. Yeah. Look, I mean, 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:10.920 I think you just nailed it on so many different levels. 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:13.360 What I would say about law school is I think, 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:15.000 and I bet you kind of in many ways to 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:18.199 do as well. A good judge knows that he has 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:20.480 to decide the case in front of him, but he 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:23.160 also has to think about the precedent that he's setting. 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:26.080 I think a lot of people in our industry of 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:28.920 sports media, and I know you're you can also broaden it, 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:31.360 and you're in the audience of media as well, but 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:33.800 a lot of people solve the case in front of 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:37.160 them right now, and they don't think about the precedent 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:40.000 that they are setting going forward. So what I always 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:42.520 think about is if you listen to my radio show, 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:44.760 or you read out kick, or you listen to my 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:47.640 opinions or any of those things, there is a line 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:51.440 of consistency that runs through them, much like occurs with 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:55.160 a good judge, whether you're a liberal leaning judge, conservative 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:57.960 leaning judge, more down the middle, whatever it is, you 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:00.800 understand that if you're gonna make this argument about this 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:05.200 athlete on Monday, that on a year from now, the 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:07.120 logic still needs to be the same and the way 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:08.720 I picked up on it in my career. And I'm 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:11.360 curious if there was an AHA moment for you when 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:15.280 I started doing sports talk radio, I realized that most 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:19.160 people are such homers for their team that they can't 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:22.080 take it outside of what their team is doing and 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:24.680 be logical. And I'll give you an example. I started 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:28.240 doing sports talk radio in Nashville, Heartbeat of the SEC. 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:31.160 Here everybody has favorite teams and there's always an n 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:33.880 C double a infraction, or always a player getting in 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:36.840 trouble or a coach of foul of some form or fashion. 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:39.240 And I'd go on the radio and I'd be like, Okay, 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:41.680 here's what I think. And you know, Tennessee fans will 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:44.800 be upset, or Florida fans or Alabama fans, And I said, hey, 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:49.680 why can't you guys just pretend that this act, instead 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:51.920 of being done by the team that you root for, 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:55.400 was done by the team that you hate the most. 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:59.120 If your response to what should happen to them from 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:03.440 a consequence show basis is different whether it's a Tennessee 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:08.440 guy or an Alabama guy. That's the very definition of bias, 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:12.400 and to me, it's such an instructive lesson to apply 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:17.680 everywhere else. If I'm thinking differently about someone or something 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:21.760 or some situation, then I would be if somebody was 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:25.240 on quote unquote my team. That's a bias, and I 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:27.800 try to avoid it like the plague and sports isn't 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:30.920 interesting to me metaphor to use that. If you hate 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:33.680 a rival and arrival did something bad and you're like, oh, 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:35.880 you gotta throw that guy can never play in this 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:38.480 league again, and you wouldn't say the same thing about 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:41.400 your team, that's bias in its essence. That I had 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:44.560 that kind of crystal ball moment at eight years old 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:47.200 doing television, and that's been one of the guiding ethos 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:50.880 is behind basically every opinion I have is I have 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:54.160 to be consistent like a judge. I can't show bias. 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:57.680 So you're touching on one of my favorite things about 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:01.960 being a sports fan. Certainly with big issues, issues that 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:05.760 involve criminality, or issues that involved deep societal issues, you 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:10.320 want to accomplish that consistency regardless of your fandom. But 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:16.320 I love narrow minded tribalism and blind fandom in sports. 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:23.400 Yes it is. Here's the thing. Human beings are inherently tribal. 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:25.720 We are, and it's an ugly side of our nature 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:28.000 most of the time. It is something that you have 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:30.560 to overcome, and you do it. I believe through the 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:34.760 principles you and I are alluding to, you overcome racial tribalism, 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:39.119 gender tribalism, religious tribalism, and geographic tribalism by being a 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:43.600 man of principle. But sports man that's exempt from all 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:45.720 of it. I can think that Dallas Cowboys can do 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:47.840 no wrong, and I can see you all day long. 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:51.520 The Texas Longhorns should be and it's a travity. They 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:54.960 aren't a top tier program in the United States. Over 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:57.600 and overtime blue in the face because the truth is, 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:00.879 it's a harmless area of our culture and our society 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:06.960 where we can just be blind fans just have base allegiances. 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:09.119 I love that about sports. I think it's fun. I 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:11.880 don't think it's ugly. I love busting balls with somebody 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:14.800 over their team versus my team. It's really one of 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:17.120 my favorite things about sports. Be sure to catch live 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:20.160 editions about Kicked the Coverage with Clay Travis week days 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:23.520 at six am Eastern three am Pacific. We're talking to 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:25.640 Will Kaine. This is the Wins and Losses Podcast. I'm 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:28.440 Clay Travis. One of the great things about sports, I 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:30.479 think probably the greatest thing is what you just hit on. 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:34.119 It unites us. Right, we all have different tribes. But 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:35.560 what I always like to say is, whether you're a 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:38.600 janitor or a neurosurgeon, if you're at the hospital break room, 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:40.800 you can sit down and talk about what happened with 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:44.120 the local team, and you're on an equal footing with 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:48.639 each other. Right, are we giving that up by this 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:53.280 is a big question, but by allowing politics basically two 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:59.000 in many ways infect our fandom. Depends on who you 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:01.680 mean by we. I don't think the average American and 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:04.480 the average fan is giving that up by looking at 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:08.120 their fellow fans and saying, I wonder what his politics are. 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:11.760 But I think most in sports media are doing that, 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:15.720 they're totally incapable of extricating from each other whatever political 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:19.800 disagreements they might have, and enjoying this unifying section of 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:25.480 our culture that is sports. It's a truly massive miscalculation 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:30.680 by the sports media industry, and it's sad because culturally, 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:34.120 sports is a massive part of our society. That's what's 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:37.240 so sad about college football being canceled. Clay or at 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:39.919 least the Big Ten in Pact twelve. We have no 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:43.760 idea yet what we've lost. And I don't just mean economically, 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:45.960 because those that might disagree with you or me would 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:49.000 say your habit is sacrificed to others for your dollars. 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:52.520 I mean in terms of mental health. I mean in 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:56.560 terms of the future prospects in these athletes careers. I 0:19:56.600 --> 0:19:59.879 mean in terms of our ability to have these space 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:03.080 where we can be unified and come together and have fun. 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:06.400 I don't think we fully know the cost of canceling 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:10.560 college football. It's going to be huge. I don't disagree 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:13.159 at all. We both went to law school, and I 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:15.840 think one thing that that you learn in law school 0:20:15.880 --> 0:20:18.160 is certainly how to make an argument. What I love 0:20:18.200 --> 0:20:20.639 about being in sports media is unlike when I was 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:22.800 a practicing attorney, which I didn't like very much. And 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:25.000 I don't know if you practiced at all. Uh, And 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:28.040 I'm curious on that. But you have to argue whatever 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:30.680 side is paying you. And sometimes you're on the wrong 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:33.440 side of an argument, and you're like, about halfway through 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:35.640 you know the case, or halfway through the argument, you're like, man, 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:37.639 I'd a lot rather be on the other guy's side. 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:40.320 I can pick which sides of arguments I want to 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:43.359 be on. Did you practice and how much do you 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:47.680 think in terms of arguing about sports, your legal training 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:52.000 has been invaluable. You know, it's funny you bring that up, 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:53.920