1
00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,080
Speaker 1: Welcome in Wins and Lost his podcast. I'm Clay Travis,

2
00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:05,480
Speaker 1: appreciate all of you hanging out with us. Excited to

3
00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:08,319
Speaker 1: bring in Will Kine now, who is now I think

4
00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:11,200
Speaker 1: officially a part of Fox News. Prior to that, he

5
00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:15,319
Speaker 1: was with ESPN for several years. Will, thanks for joining us,

6
00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:17,639
Speaker 1: my man. I've been watching you for for years and

7
00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,840
Speaker 1: been impressed with your radio show UH and UH and

8
00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:24,400
Speaker 1: your career in general. How excited are you to be

9
00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:26,759
Speaker 1: going back to the future, I guess a little bit

10
00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,080
Speaker 1: and going back into the political realm a little bit

11
00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:31,720
Speaker 1: more than the sports realm. We'll get to both, but

12
00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,479
Speaker 1: tell everybody what your newest gig is going to be.

13
00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,840
Speaker 1: I am only a little more excited to be joining

14
00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:41,680
Speaker 1: Fox News than I am to be talking to you

15
00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:45,040
Speaker 1: Clay Travis today. You and I have known each other,

16
00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,960
Speaker 1: talked offline, met in person, want and I have certainly

17
00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:52,120
Speaker 1: read your stuff, watched your material, listen to your radio

18
00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,040
Speaker 1: show over the years. I think you do an awesome job.

19
00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:58,880
Speaker 1: You're one of the few rational people in media, and

20
00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:00,680
Speaker 1: I'm excited, I think, for the first time, for you

21
00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:03,720
Speaker 1: and I to ever be talking on the air. But

22
00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,759
Speaker 1: just a little bit more excited than that I am

23
00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,200
Speaker 1: joining Fox News. I will be the new weekend co

24
00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,880
Speaker 1: host of Fox and Friends on Saturday and Sunday mornings

25
00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,840
Speaker 1: six at ten am Eastern Time. So that is awesome. Um,

26
00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,160
Speaker 1: And obviously for people out there who know, that's been

27
00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:24,160
Speaker 1: a prominent launching ground. Right, So you've got a great

28
00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,360
Speaker 1: gig now, and I'm sure you're gonna do an incredible job,

29
00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:28,000
Speaker 1: and I think you're gonna be very good at it.

30
00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:31,280
Speaker 1: But when you're part of that family, there are other

31
00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:35,279
Speaker 1: opportunities that could arise. So I'm sure you'll be used

32
00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:39,160
Speaker 1: and utilized in a wide variety of ways across all

33
00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,360
Speaker 1: of Fox News at different times. Right. That may be,

34
00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,479
Speaker 1: but I will say claim my priority walking through that

35
00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,120
Speaker 1: door is to continue to make Fox and Friends one

36
00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:51,880
Speaker 1: of the best shows in cable news. I know you

37
00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:56,360
Speaker 1: saw this because it's a fascinating stat a resounding win.

38
00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:00,240
Speaker 1: But Fox News primetime opinion shows eight to eleven are

39
00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:04,720
Speaker 1: not just beating their quote unquote competitors at CNN and MSNBC,

40
00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,519
Speaker 1: not just the most watched television shows in cable news,

41
00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:12,360
Speaker 1: but now they are beating network prime time shows on

42
00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:16,760
Speaker 1: the ABC in CBS. It shouldn't happen, Clay, It's beyond well.

43
00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,240
Speaker 1: It simply should not be happening because you and I

44
00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:23,000
Speaker 1: both know network television is distributed to more homes than

45
00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,600
Speaker 1: cable television. My goal is to make that same thing

46
00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,280
Speaker 1: happen for Fox and Friends on the weekend, may get

47
00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:32,880
Speaker 1: the most watch program in all of television. That's an

48
00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:34,560
Speaker 1: amazing goal, and it's one that a lot of people

49
00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:36,960
Speaker 1: would have said was crazy when Fox News was founded

50
00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,040
Speaker 1: so many years ago. We'll get to your current gig

51
00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,160
Speaker 1: and how you got there, but on wins and losses,

52
00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,200
Speaker 1: I like to talk with people about where they started

53
00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:47,919
Speaker 1: and how they ended up where they are. So let's

54
00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,480
Speaker 1: go back in time two years and years ago. You

55
00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,839
Speaker 1: were born in the state of Texas. What was your

56
00:02:55,040 --> 00:03:00,799
Speaker 1: growing up experience like there and how important was sports

57
00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:05,600
Speaker 1: to your overall development into what you became. I grew

58
00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,639
Speaker 1: up in a small town outside of Dallas, Sherman, Texas.

59
00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,200
Speaker 1: It's a town of about thirty five thousand people. It's

60
00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,600
Speaker 1: not a suburb of Dallas. It is a standalone rural

61
00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,320
Speaker 1: community about sixties sixty five miles north of Dallas. I

62
00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,200
Speaker 1: loved the way I grew up. It was one town

63
00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,040
Speaker 1: with one high school, with one middle school, and everybody

64
00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,399
Speaker 1: was integrated. When I grew up Clay that basically meant

65
00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,880
Speaker 1: black and white. We all went to school together. My

66
00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:35,000
Speaker 1: dad was an attorney. He was a plaintiffs lawyer. He

67
00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:40,320
Speaker 1: essentially then worked on contingency fiezas entire life. I told

68
00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,360
Speaker 1: your colleague Bobby Burak, this, that means if you win,

69
00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,520
Speaker 1: you make money, and if you leave, you make nothing more.

70
00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:48,960
Speaker 1: So that built me. That framed me when I made

71
00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,680
Speaker 1: my career choices. I knew that I wanted to hit

72
00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:55,000
Speaker 1: home runs. Everything I thought about when it came to

73
00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,280
Speaker 1: my career was if there is a ceiling. I'm not

74
00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,560
Speaker 1: that interested. Now We'll tell you as I've gotten older

75
00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,760
Speaker 1: and I've learned from others successes, and the truth is,

76
00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:06,840
Speaker 1: I think it's a big part of your success story.

77
00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,600
Speaker 1: Singles and doubles stacked up over time are the real

78
00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,560
Speaker 1: secret to success. Yes, people hit it over the fence. Yes,

79
00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,680
Speaker 1: people create Internet startups that they flip for billions of

80
00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,839
Speaker 1: dollars overnight or in six months. But most of the

81
00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,480
Speaker 1: time success is built the way Tom Brady built it.

82
00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,279
Speaker 1: It's built the way where Warren Buffett built it, and

83
00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,040
Speaker 1: I've come to appreciate that that's how my career will

84
00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:30,960
Speaker 1: be as well, because this has been a long time

85
00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,839
Speaker 1: in the making. It has been working for free on

86
00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,680
Speaker 1: numerous occasions. It's been working for less than my market

87
00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,200
Speaker 1: rate for most of my career. And those sacrifices are

88
00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:42,800
Speaker 1: essentially the singles I'm stacking up at some point for

89
00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:44,720
Speaker 1: what I hope adds up to a big run on

90
00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:47,159
Speaker 1: the scoreboard. Yeah, you know what, it's It's an interesting

91
00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,840
Speaker 1: part and I want to unpack that a little bit. Um.

92
00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,039
Speaker 1: One of the things I love about these conversations and

93
00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:54,000
Speaker 1: wins and losses is there's a lot of young people

94
00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,000
Speaker 1: who listen, right because a lot of people look at

95
00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,599
Speaker 1: the final destination and say, oh, I want to go there,

96
00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,200
Speaker 1: but they don't necessarily look at all of the steps

97
00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,720
Speaker 1: along the way to the final destination. And uh. And

98
00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,839
Speaker 1: I always like to ask people where they got their start.

99
00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:14,159
Speaker 1: What was the first media job you had? And do

100
00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:18,160
Speaker 1: you remember what you got paid to do it? So

101
00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:20,279
Speaker 1: you used two words, and I'm gonna have to answer

102
00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,479
Speaker 1: the question two ways because of the use of those

103
00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,680
Speaker 1: two words. You said media and job. I didn't have

104
00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,440
Speaker 1: a job for quite some time, but I was in

105
00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,520
Speaker 1: media for quite some time. So the first thing I

106
00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,320
Speaker 1: did out of law school, Clay is I wanted to

107
00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,599
Speaker 1: get involved in media, but at that time it meant

108
00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:38,800
Speaker 1: write a book. So the first thing I did after

109
00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,120
Speaker 1: my formal education is I set out to write the

110
00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,599
Speaker 1: Great American novel. Yeah, I can spare you it was crap.

111
00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,640
Speaker 1: It wasn't Great American. So that was fascinating. So where

112
00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,039
Speaker 1: did you What was your day to day like? So

113
00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:51,800
Speaker 1: when you graduate, let me go back for a minute,

114
00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:53,880
Speaker 1: because I want to circle bling around to the American novel.

115
00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:56,920
Speaker 1: So you went to if I'm correct, you went to Pepperdine.

116
00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:59,479
Speaker 1: So you talked about growing up in in this kind

117
00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,080
Speaker 1: of not a big city in Texas. That's a big trip.

118
00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,520
Speaker 1: What was your experience like, because I'll tell you mine.

119
00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:07,680
Speaker 1: I grew up in Nashville, which is, you know, a

120
00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,320
Speaker 1: decent sized city, but I went away to college at

121
00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:12,920
Speaker 1: George Washington, d C. It was a total culture shock.

122
00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:17,240
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine for you what going from Texas

123
00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:20,640
Speaker 1: to Pepperdine for people who don't know out in Malibu

124
00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,279
Speaker 1: must have been like for a Texas kid to find

125
00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:27,039
Speaker 1: himself in l a it was total culture shock. You know,

126
00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:28,839
Speaker 1: I later in life and we'll get there if we

127
00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,040
Speaker 1: need to move to New York City with my wife.

128
00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,200
Speaker 1: And it wasn't half the culture shock of an eighteen

129
00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:37,440
Speaker 1: year old movement from Sherman, Texas to southern California. And

130
00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,120
Speaker 1: here's why it was such a shock. Um College for

131
00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:46,800
Speaker 1: me was about athletics and it was about friendship. Eventually,

132
00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,960
Speaker 1: all my buddies went to Baylor in Texas and Texas

133
00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,359
Speaker 1: A and M, and they were doing the fraternity and

134
00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,840
Speaker 1: college football thing, and I felt like I was missing

135
00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,039
Speaker 1: out incredibly. On top of that, I was playing water

136
00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:02,240
Speaker 1: polo at Pepperdine and it was an absolute exercise over

137
00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:05,240
Speaker 1: four years in humility. Bottom line, man, I just wasn't

138
00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,040
Speaker 1: very good. I walked on and I'm proud of myself

139
00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,080
Speaker 1: for sticking through it and never quitting. But every day

140
00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:15,440
Speaker 1: it practiced. It was ego crushing humility, which is an

141
00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,720
Speaker 1: awesome life lesson. But in the beginning it was really

142
00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:20,920
Speaker 1: hard for me. After a year of being with my

143
00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,760
Speaker 1: teammates and making friends and relationships and putting in the

144
00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,960
Speaker 1: application to transfer to the University of Texas or s

145
00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,680
Speaker 1: m U, I decided I'm gonna stick this out. I

146
00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:32,600
Speaker 1: have the relationships I want to be on the team.

147
00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,840
Speaker 1: So I stayed at Pepperdine and I do think it

148
00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:40,720
Speaker 1: was personally a growth moment. But I would encourage anybody

149
00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,600
Speaker 1: out there, whatever your final education destination is, be it

150
00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:49,080
Speaker 1: medical school, law school, college, high school, make that be

151
00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:51,680
Speaker 1: in the place that you want to live. You should

152
00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,040
Speaker 1: finish your education where you want to start your career.

153
00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,560
Speaker 1: That's fascinating. So it's interesting you said that about your

154
00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,240
Speaker 1: sort of cultural disconnect and how tough it was. I

155
00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,080
Speaker 1: felt the same way. I put in applications after my

156
00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,920
Speaker 1: first year at George Washington. I was like, man, I

157
00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:12,000
Speaker 1: don't like this. Uh it's very East Coast um. People

158
00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,880
Speaker 1: are kind of assholes. It's very different than what I

159
00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:17,160
Speaker 1: was used to in the South. And I think in

160
00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,760
Speaker 1: retrospect also, I was soft, right, I mean I was.

161
00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:22,960
Speaker 1: I think like a lot of eighteen year old kids,

162
00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,400
Speaker 1: you think you're tough, you think you're smart, but then

163
00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:27,320
Speaker 1: you kind of get punched in the face a little

164
00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:29,320
Speaker 1: bit with the reality of life, and not that the

165
00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,319
Speaker 1: reality of life necessarily is reflected on a college campus

166
00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:34,560
Speaker 1: where you're still in a little bit of a cocoon,

167
00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,800
Speaker 1: but I was I'll be straightforward, I think I was

168
00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,280
Speaker 1: kind of a pussy at eighteen and nineteen years old

169
00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,600
Speaker 1: and being in a city setting and having to grow

170
00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:45,840
Speaker 1: up a little bit at least, and living in a

171
00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,800
Speaker 1: in a decent sized East Coast city. I came to

172
00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,680
Speaker 1: love Washington, d C. But I almost came back South

173
00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,360
Speaker 1: after my freshman year because I was like, this just

174
00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:59,720
Speaker 1: isn't a traditional college experience. And I've always been glad

175
00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,400
Speaker 1: that I was tough enough to stick it out and

176
00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:05,240
Speaker 1: that I didn't bail and transfer somewhere else. Not to

177
00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,080
Speaker 1: say that everybody out there who thinks about transferring it's

178
00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:10,880
Speaker 1: the wrong decision, but it sounds like for you and

179
00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,360
Speaker 1: for me, there was a there was a positive in

180
00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,520
Speaker 1: sticking it out and being tough enough, even if it

181
00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,600
Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily the same perfect experience that maybe we saw

182
00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,800
Speaker 1: others seem to be having. I love one thing you said.

183
00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,000
Speaker 1: You indicted yourself you were soft, and I felt the

184
00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,480
Speaker 1: same way, and that's guided me through a lot of

185
00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,000
Speaker 1: decisions I've made later in life. I just believe in

186
00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:36,040
Speaker 1: challenging yourself. I believe in being challenged intellectually in debate,

187
00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,760
Speaker 1: physically moving around, being around people are different than you.

188
00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,560
Speaker 1: That's why I went to California the first place. It's

189
00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:44,600
Speaker 1: why I moved to New York. It's why I send

190
00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:47,640
Speaker 1: my sons to school in Harlem. I think life should

191
00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:49,760
Speaker 1: be fairly hard. I think you should be put in

192
00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,920
Speaker 1: uncomfortable positions. I think you should be challenged, and I

193
00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,240
Speaker 1: think you should learn to grow through that. This is

194
00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:56,960
Speaker 1: probably why you and I agree on so many things

195
00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,480
Speaker 1: happening in this country. Where everybody protects themselves not just

196
00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:07,000
Speaker 1: from uncomfortable, unchallenging concepts, but from disagreement. We're creating generations,

197
00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:12,120
Speaker 1: and I use plural, generations of soft people unprepared for

198
00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,599
Speaker 1: the real world. Yeah, and look, and it's not necessarily

199
00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,840
Speaker 1: those people's fault either. Because you mentioned the parenting decision,

200
00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,040
Speaker 1: and we'll get into stead. There's all sorts of fascinating

201
00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,360
Speaker 1: decisions there for how you raise your kids. But I

202
00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,880
Speaker 1: think so much of our culture is about safety, is

203
00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,920
Speaker 1: m and bubble wrapping kids, and certainly the coronavirus is

204
00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,800
Speaker 1: this story in many ways writ large, what is like

205
00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,719
Speaker 1: I jotted down, uh, yesterday I was talking about in

206
00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:37,840
Speaker 1: my radio show, and I kind of keep notes you know,

207
00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,840
Speaker 1: one of the most essential questions that seems to come

208
00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,880
Speaker 1: up over and over again with the coronavirus is what

209
00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,600
Speaker 1: is acceptable risk and who gets to determine what that

210
00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:51,240
Speaker 1: acceptable risk is because you and I may feel, hey,

211
00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,160
Speaker 1: we're willing to take risk. I said this, Uh, you

212
00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:58,240
Speaker 1: know earlier today I took my kindergartener and walked him

213
00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,880
Speaker 1: to school. Physically in school. I think it's important for

214
00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,640
Speaker 1: my kids to be physically president school. I think it's

215
00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,360
Speaker 1: important for college football to be happening. But more important

216
00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,280
Speaker 1: than that, I think kids in college need to be

217
00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,320
Speaker 1: in school. They need to learn how to handle risk

218
00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,719
Speaker 1: and assess it and not constantly like be told that

219
00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,199
Speaker 1: it's brave to quit right like. That troubles me when

220
00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:21,760
Speaker 1: I hear people say, oh, it's so brave of the

221
00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,400
Speaker 1: Big Ten and the Pact twelve to quit and not

222
00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,600
Speaker 1: play sports this fall. Well, when did we start definding

223
00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:31,480
Speaker 1: bravery as the absence of something as opposed to the

224
00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,400
Speaker 1: action of something? Right? Um, So that that troubles me.

225
00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,679
Speaker 1: I'm gonna let you kind of get into this too,

226
00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,040
Speaker 1: But I think that's where we have very many agreements on. Now,

227
00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:42,560
Speaker 1: you went to law school, you came back to Texas.

228
00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,760
Speaker 1: I came back home and went to UH, went to Vanderbilt,

229
00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,439
Speaker 1: so we're somewhat similar in that respect. How did the

230
00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:51,920
Speaker 1: law school help you? How did it challenge you? How

231
00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,200
Speaker 1: did it help you to grow in UH? In your career?

232
00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,280
Speaker 1: Would you advise kids who are probably a lot of

233
00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,360
Speaker 1: them listening to us out there? Like I get this

234
00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:01,640
Speaker 1: ask question all the time. I bet you two as well.

235
00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,040
Speaker 1: Would you go to law school? I say yes because

236
00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,240
Speaker 1: of how much I learned? What about you? So this

237
00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,760
Speaker 1: conversation is awesome because we're bouncing all over the place

238
00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,600
Speaker 1: and following our curiosity. I'm afraid I'm leaving questions unanswered.

239
00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:15,200
Speaker 1: I never want to do that. You asked about my

240
00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,600
Speaker 1: career path, I'm always happy to return to it, but

241
00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,640
Speaker 1: this one is something I'm also very interested in your response.

242
00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:25,400
Speaker 1: So I have become very pessimistic on the future of

243
00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,959
Speaker 1: higher education. Clay, I am all talk right now because

244
00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,640
Speaker 1: my oldest son is twelve. I still have six years

245
00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,160
Speaker 1: to figure out if I'm going to commit to paying

246
00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:37,760
Speaker 1: for college, but right now I have serious, grave doubts

247
00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:41,120
Speaker 1: about paying hundreds of thousands of dollars a year or

248
00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,240
Speaker 1: seeing my son's going to debt at the levels of

249
00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,680
Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to go to

250
00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,520
Speaker 1: an institution that brainwashes them into ideas that I do

251
00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,640
Speaker 1: not believe. And I don't care, as I've stated, if

252
00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:54,960
Speaker 1: they're exposed to ideas that I disagree with. What I

253
00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,079
Speaker 1: care about is whether or not they're getting to be

254
00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,480
Speaker 1: exposed to any form of disagreement, because that's out college

255
00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,120
Speaker 1: is turned into a place of one sidedness and safe

256
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,760
Speaker 1: spaces and protection from any form of disagreement. So I'm

257
00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,920
Speaker 1: generally pessimistic about higher education in the United States. But

258
00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,920
Speaker 1: that being said, Man law school was invaluable. It helps

259
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,560
Speaker 1: me and everything I do. I know it does the

260
00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:20,280
Speaker 1: same for you because I listened to you, and I

261
00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,800
Speaker 1: hear how you think through things and how you frame conversations.

262
00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,440
Speaker 1: Law school simply organized my thoughts. I had a lot

263
00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:29,679
Speaker 1: of different thoughts going in different directions when I came

264
00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:31,720
Speaker 1: out of college. I kind of thought I knew what

265
00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,480
Speaker 1: I thought about certain issues, but I never had them

266
00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,400
Speaker 1: nailed down, and I never understood how they connected to

267
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,160
Speaker 1: each other, if I was being inconsistent or hypocritical, or

268
00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,559
Speaker 1: if I was contradicting myself. Law school helped me build

269
00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,760
Speaker 1: a framework, both an obvious one when I learned constitutional

270
00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,080
Speaker 1: law and the founding principles and documents of this country,

271
00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:55,400
Speaker 1: but also just philosophically what makes sense, like what values

272
00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,400
Speaker 1: connect with each other and which ones undercut the others.

273
00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:03,120
Speaker 1: Law school, to me, absolutely informs everything I do on television,

274
00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,199
Speaker 1: everything I do behind the scenes, and how I've organized

275
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,959
Speaker 1: my career when I've been entrepreneurial. Yeah. Look, I mean,

276
00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:10,920
Speaker 1: I think you just nailed it on so many different levels.

277
00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,360
Speaker 1: What I would say about law school is I think,

278
00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:15,000
Speaker 1: and I bet you kind of in many ways to

279
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,199
Speaker 1: do as well. A good judge knows that he has

280
00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,480
Speaker 1: to decide the case in front of him, but he

281
00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,160
Speaker 1: also has to think about the precedent that he's setting.

282
00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,080
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people in our industry of

283
00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,920
Speaker 1: sports media, and I know you're you can also broaden it,

284
00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,360
Speaker 1: and you're in the audience of media as well, but

285
00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,800
Speaker 1: a lot of people solve the case in front of

286
00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,160
Speaker 1: them right now, and they don't think about the precedent

287
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,000
Speaker 1: that they are setting going forward. So what I always

288
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,520
Speaker 1: think about is if you listen to my radio show,

289
00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:44,760
Speaker 1: or you read out kick, or you listen to my

290
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,640
Speaker 1: opinions or any of those things, there is a line

291
00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:51,440
Speaker 1: of consistency that runs through them, much like occurs with

292
00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:55,160
Speaker 1: a good judge, whether you're a liberal leaning judge, conservative

293
00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,960
Speaker 1: leaning judge, more down the middle, whatever it is, you

294
00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,800
Speaker 1: understand that if you're gonna make this argument about this

295
00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:05,200
Speaker 1: athlete on Monday, that on a year from now, the

296
00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,120
Speaker 1: logic still needs to be the same and the way

297
00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:08,720
Speaker 1: I picked up on it in my career. And I'm

298
00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,360
Speaker 1: curious if there was an AHA moment for you when

299
00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:15,280
Speaker 1: I started doing sports talk radio, I realized that most

300
00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:19,160
Speaker 1: people are such homers for their team that they can't

301
00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,080
Speaker 1: take it outside of what their team is doing and

302
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,680
Speaker 1: be logical. And I'll give you an example. I started

303
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,240
Speaker 1: doing sports talk radio in Nashville, Heartbeat of the SEC.

304
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,160
Speaker 1: Here everybody has favorite teams and there's always an n

305
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,880
Speaker 1: C double a infraction, or always a player getting in

306
00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,840
Speaker 1: trouble or a coach of foul of some form or fashion.

307
00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,240
Speaker 1: And I'd go on the radio and I'd be like, Okay,

308
00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:41,680
Speaker 1: here's what I think. And you know, Tennessee fans will

309
00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,800
Speaker 1: be upset, or Florida fans or Alabama fans, And I said, hey,

310
00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:49,680
Speaker 1: why can't you guys just pretend that this act, instead

311
00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:51,920
Speaker 1: of being done by the team that you root for,

312
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,400
Speaker 1: was done by the team that you hate the most.

313
00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,120
Speaker 1: If your response to what should happen to them from

314
00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:03,440
Speaker 1: a consequence show basis is different whether it's a Tennessee

315
00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:08,440
Speaker 1: guy or an Alabama guy. That's the very definition of bias,

316
00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,400
Speaker 1: and to me, it's such an instructive lesson to apply

317
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:17,680
Speaker 1: everywhere else. If I'm thinking differently about someone or something

318
00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:21,760
Speaker 1: or some situation, then I would be if somebody was

319
00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,240
Speaker 1: on quote unquote my team. That's a bias, and I

320
00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:27,800
Speaker 1: try to avoid it like the plague and sports isn't

321
00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,920
Speaker 1: interesting to me metaphor to use that. If you hate

322
00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,680
Speaker 1: a rival and arrival did something bad and you're like, oh,

323
00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:35,880
Speaker 1: you gotta throw that guy can never play in this

324
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,480
Speaker 1: league again, and you wouldn't say the same thing about

325
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,400
Speaker 1: your team, that's bias in its essence. That I had

326
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,560
Speaker 1: that kind of crystal ball moment at eight years old

327
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,200
Speaker 1: doing television, and that's been one of the guiding ethos

328
00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,880
Speaker 1: is behind basically every opinion I have is I have

329
00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,160
Speaker 1: to be consistent like a judge. I can't show bias.

330
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:57,680
Speaker 1: So you're touching on one of my favorite things about

331
00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,960
Speaker 1: being a sports fan. Certainly with big issues, issues that

332
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,760
Speaker 1: involve criminality, or issues that involved deep societal issues, you

333
00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:10,320
Speaker 1: want to accomplish that consistency regardless of your fandom. But

334
00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:16,320
Speaker 1: I love narrow minded tribalism and blind fandom in sports.

335
00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:23,400
Speaker 1: Yes it is. Here's the thing. Human beings are inherently tribal.

336
00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:25,720
Speaker 1: We are, and it's an ugly side of our nature

337
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,000
Speaker 1: most of the time. It is something that you have

338
00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,560
Speaker 1: to overcome, and you do it. I believe through the

339
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:34,760
Speaker 1: principles you and I are alluding to, you overcome racial tribalism,

340
00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:39,119
Speaker 1: gender tribalism, religious tribalism, and geographic tribalism by being a

341
00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:43,600
Speaker 1: man of principle. But sports man that's exempt from all

342
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:45,720
Speaker 1: of it. I can think that Dallas Cowboys can do

343
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:47,840
Speaker 1: no wrong, and I can see you all day long.

344
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,520
Speaker 1: The Texas Longhorns should be and it's a travity. They

345
00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,960
Speaker 1: aren't a top tier program in the United States. Over

346
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,600
Speaker 1: and overtime blue in the face because the truth is,

347
00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,879
Speaker 1: it's a harmless area of our culture and our society

348
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:06,960
Speaker 1: where we can just be blind fans just have base allegiances.

349
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,119
Speaker 1: I love that about sports. I think it's fun. I

350
00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:11,880
Speaker 1: don't think it's ugly. I love busting balls with somebody

351
00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,800
Speaker 1: over their team versus my team. It's really one of

352
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,120
Speaker 1: my favorite things about sports. Be sure to catch live

353
00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,160
Speaker 1: editions about Kicked the Coverage with Clay Travis week days

354
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,520
Speaker 1: at six am Eastern three am Pacific. We're talking to

355
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,640
Speaker 1: Will Kaine. This is the Wins and Losses Podcast. I'm

356
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,440
Speaker 1: Clay Travis. One of the great things about sports, I

357
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,479
Speaker 1: think probably the greatest thing is what you just hit on.

358
00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,119
Speaker 1: It unites us. Right, we all have different tribes. But

359
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:35,560
Speaker 1: what I always like to say is, whether you're a

360
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,600
Speaker 1: janitor or a neurosurgeon, if you're at the hospital break room,

361
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:40,800
Speaker 1: you can sit down and talk about what happened with

362
00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,120
Speaker 1: the local team, and you're on an equal footing with

363
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,639
Speaker 1: each other. Right, are we giving that up by this

364
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:53,280
Speaker 1: is a big question, but by allowing politics basically two

365
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:59,000
Speaker 1: in many ways infect our fandom. Depends on who you

366
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,680
Speaker 1: mean by we. I don't think the average American and

367
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,480
Speaker 1: the average fan is giving that up by looking at

368
00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,120
Speaker 1: their fellow fans and saying, I wonder what his politics are.

369
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,760
Speaker 1: But I think most in sports media are doing that,

370
00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,720
Speaker 1: they're totally incapable of extricating from each other whatever political

371
00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:19,800
Speaker 1: disagreements they might have, and enjoying this unifying section of

372
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:25,480
Speaker 1: our culture that is sports. It's a truly massive miscalculation

373
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:30,680
Speaker 1: by the sports media industry, and it's sad because culturally,

374
00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,120
Speaker 1: sports is a massive part of our society. That's what's

375
00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,240
Speaker 1: so sad about college football being canceled. Clay or at

376
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,919
Speaker 1: least the Big Ten in Pact twelve. We have no

377
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,760
Speaker 1: idea yet what we've lost. And I don't just mean economically,

378
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:45,960
Speaker 1: because those that might disagree with you or me would

379
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,000
Speaker 1: say your habit is sacrificed to others for your dollars.

380
00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,520
Speaker 1: I mean in terms of mental health. I mean in

381
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:56,560
Speaker 1: terms of the future prospects in these athletes careers. I

382
00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,879
Speaker 1: mean in terms of our ability to have these space

383
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,080
Speaker 1: where we can be unified and come together and have fun.

384
00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,400
Speaker 1: I don't think we fully know the cost of canceling

385
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,560
Speaker 1: college football. It's going to be huge. I don't disagree

386
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,159
Speaker 1: at all. We both went to law school, and I

387
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,840
Speaker 1: think one thing that that you learn in law school

388
00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,160
Speaker 1: is certainly how to make an argument. What I love

389
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,639
Speaker 1: about being in sports media is unlike when I was

390
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:22,800
Speaker 1: a practicing attorney, which I didn't like very much. And

391
00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,000
Speaker 1: I don't know if you practiced at all. Uh, And

392
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,040
Speaker 1: I'm curious on that. But you have to argue whatever

393
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,680
Speaker 1: side is paying you. And sometimes you're on the wrong

394
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,440
Speaker 1: side of an argument, and you're like, about halfway through

395
00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:35,640
Speaker 1: you know the case, or halfway through the argument, you're like, man,

396
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:37,639
Speaker 1: I'd a lot rather be on the other guy's side.

397
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:40,320
Speaker 1: I can pick which sides of arguments I want to

398
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,359
Speaker 1: be on. Did you practice and how much do you

399
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:47,680
Speaker 1: think in terms of arguing about sports, your legal training

400
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:52,000
Speaker 1: has been invaluable. You know, it's funny you bring that up,

401
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:53,920
Speaker 1: because I am the same as you. I don't ever

402
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,760
Speaker 1: have to compromise what I believe for my argument. Nobody

403
00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:58,520
Speaker 1: is paying me to say anything in nor what you

404
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,719
Speaker 1: take I don't belief. But you know, if I had

405
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:04,359
Speaker 1: gone on to be a lawyer and I didn't practice

406
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,399
Speaker 1: either very much either. Um, my father died when I

407
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,199
Speaker 1: was twenty five, and I went to wind up his

408
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,640
Speaker 1: practice and I clerked in law school for a criminal

409
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,280
Speaker 1: defense firm, I would have wanted to be a trial lawyer.

410
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,040
Speaker 1: And you and I aren't that far apart in age.

411
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,119
Speaker 1: The day in the age of the civil trial lawyer

412
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,399
Speaker 1: is almost gone. So that would have meant be a

413
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,160
Speaker 1: criminal lawyer, which would have meant being a prosecutor or.

414
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:30,720
Speaker 1: If you want to make some money in life, go

415
00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,720
Speaker 1: be a criminal defense attorney, in which case I really

416
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,440
Speaker 1: would have had to take money and defend people when

417
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,879
Speaker 1: I really would have rather not. Now I have buddies

418
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:44,359
Speaker 1: who do this, and I think it is truly noble.

419
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,600
Speaker 1: You have to fall back on the principle that the

420
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,960
Speaker 1: United States is a country where there is a burden

421
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 1: of proof. The Constitution affords everyone representation, and you are

422
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,240
Speaker 1: truly doing a service by giving them the best representation

423
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 1: that you can. The federal government or the state government

424
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 1: or their county government has a ton of resources at

425
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 1: its disposal, and they should be able to prove their

426
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,120
Speaker 1: case if it's coming to trial. I would have probably

427
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 1: told myself all that. I gotta tell you, Clay, I'm

428
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,120
Speaker 1: a little happy I never had to make that that decision.

429
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 1: So you I want to circle back around now, and

430
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,280
Speaker 1: I know I try to move in a linear fashion,

431
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,359
Speaker 1: but time sometimes like things stand out. You said you

432
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 1: started to write a novel, So what happened with the

433
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 1: novel writing? How long did you commit to it and

434
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,360
Speaker 1: when did you think, Man, I'm not very good at this,

435
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 1: and where did that lead you next? So when I

436
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,400
Speaker 1: graduated law school, I decided I was going to write

437
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:35,920
Speaker 1: this novel, and if I was going to do so,

438
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 1: I was going to move somewhere, live somewhere that it

439
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 1: always wanted to be. It basically came down to two

440
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,199
Speaker 1: different places for me, Hawaii or Montana. I chose to

441
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,760
Speaker 1: go to Montana. I drove with my dog up north

442
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,159
Speaker 1: with no real destination. I got to western Montana. I

443
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 1: didn't know a guy in the area. He put me

444
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 1: up for a couple of days and I started looking

445
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,439
Speaker 1: in the paper for a cabin to rent. I rented

446
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 1: this cabin and the I think then seventy five year

447
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 1: old lady said do you know horses? Do you need

448
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 1: a job? And I said, I know a little bit,

449
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:09,680
Speaker 1: and I do need a job. So she put me

450
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 1: in touch with her son who had a ranch in

451
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,119
Speaker 1: the area. He was a hunting outfitter in Montana. He

452
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,400
Speaker 1: took tourists or hunters on big elk and ram and

453
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 1: moose hunts up in the mountains of Montana. I worked

454
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 1: for him for a year and spent my off time

455
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 1: writing this horrendous novels. I did finish it, not unlike

456
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 1: what we were talking about earlier. I committed myself to

457
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 1: the project. And then, as I mentioned, after my dad

458
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 1: died and I moved back on the oldest of four

459
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 1: my youngest brothers, ten years younger than me, I wanted

460
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,199
Speaker 1: to be around as he was graduating from high school.

461
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 1: I went ahead and finished that novel. But in that process,

462
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 1: Clay not only that I realized my novel was crap,

463
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 1: but I also realized this is a really terrible way

464
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 1: to make a living. But I had also started to

465
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,160
Speaker 1: develop this entrepreneurial bug. So I wanted to marry writing

466
00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,719
Speaker 1: and media and business together, and that meant for me.

467
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: In the beginning newspapers. I didn't come from the kind

468
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,399
Speaker 1: of money will you go say, I'm going to buy

469
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 1: a radio station, But I was capable of learning the

470
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,399
Speaker 1: business and scrapping together enough money to buy small town

471
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 1: weekly newspapers in Texas. And I started to do that

472
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 1: and built a little business of three, four five community

473
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 1: newspapers that I eventually sold to a conglomerate. All Right,

474
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 1: I want to get back to that. But I'm fascinated

475
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 1: by the Montana experience because this is like yellow Stone

476
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 1: writ large. I've never been to Montana. I've never been

477
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,120
Speaker 1: to what I would call the real West uh and,

478
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: and I mean, you know, outside of California, Washington, Vegas,

479
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 1: you know that area, even Colorado. I really want to

480
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 1: get up there. What what time of year did you

481
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 1: go to Montana? What was it like? You lived in

482
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 1: a cabin by yourself, writing writing a novel? Like did

483
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 1: you know anybody? Did you make any friends? Like? What

484
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 1: kind of social interactions did you have there? So I

485
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 1: took the bar, which, as you know, was probably in

486
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: about July. I went home and hung out my buddies

487
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 1: for the month of August, or at least part of

488
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 1: that month, and I moved to Montana in August early September,

489
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 1: and I lived there for a year. My friend was

490
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: the rancher that I worked for, a year old cowboy.

491
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 1: I had another buddy who was his nephew, and I

492
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 1: hung out with his son some. But the truth is,

493
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 1: I'm pretty comfortable spending time on my own. You know.

494
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 1: I look back sometimes Clay at my twenties and I go, Wow,

495
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 1: what if you'd been in New York City? Then what

496
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: if you had been in Los Angeles at that time?

497
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,640
Speaker 1: Might have had some fun. And so I do look

498
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 1: back hunting go well. I made some choices to be

499
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: alone and work on a ranch, but I honestly I

500
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: wouldn't trade it for that that that momentary. What did

501
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 1: you do on the ranch? Like? Were you riding a

502
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: horse around like a cowboy? Like? What was your day

503
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 1: to day when you were living in Montana? Build fences, um,

504
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: throw bales of hay, stack him in the barn. And

505
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 1: then we were shoe horses, and then we were a

506
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 1: hunting outfitter. So in Montana and supposed to growing up

507
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: in Texas the way deer hunting was, and I don't

508
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 1: know what it's like in Tennessee, probably the same as Texas.

509
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: It's pretty small land. It's often a feeder. You sit

510
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 1: in a box of blinds and wait for the deer

511
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,640
Speaker 1: to come. In Montana, you ride back into government land.

512
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 1: I believe the land in Montana is government land. You ride,

513
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 1: in our case, thirteen miles back into a camp. We

514
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,239
Speaker 1: had you stay back in there a week and my

515
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,880
Speaker 1: job was to pack the mules, take everything on and off.

516
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: Learn how to saddle everybody's horse, put it together. Learn

517
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 1: how to pack a mule, bring him into camp, stay

518
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 1: for four or five days, take him out of camp.

519
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: I wasn't a hunting guid. I didn't know the area

520
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: well enough to be that. But I was essentially like

521
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 1: the low man on the totem pole. Hey, get the horses,

522
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 1: saddle the horses, pack the mules. Do you ever have

523
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 1: any grizzly bear experiences? Man, I have never seen a

524
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 1: grizzly bear. And I just did this trip fifteen states,

525
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 1: seven thousand miles, hit every state in the West, including Yellowstone,

526
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 1: and I've never seen a grizzly So I mean, was

527
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,359
Speaker 1: that a fear when you guys were taking people into

528
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 1: the into the camping area where you cognizant of the

529
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 1: danger of grizzly bears? Was that talked about at all?

530
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 1: It was definitely talked about. I don't know that it

531
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: was a fear. I remember when I moved to Montana.

532
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: I was talking this old guy and I have a

533
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: three seven. I have a lot of guns, not in

534
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 1: New York, but I had at seven and I carried

535
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,479
Speaker 1: up there to kind of have his my side arm.

536
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: Should we go out into the mountains. And this whole

537
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 1: guy said to me, you know what you can do

538
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 1: with this gun? Will I was like, what, you need

539
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: to file the sights off so that you can get

540
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 1: a bear. It's useful with a bear because it file

541
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 1: the sights off. Why would I do that? He said,

542
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 1: So when that grizzly takes it to you and takes

543
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 1: it from me and shoves up your butt, it won't

544
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 1: hurt of that. That's pretty fantastic, all right. So I'm

545
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: fascinated by the entire like the Montana experience, because I

546
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: graduated from law school and moved to the Caribbean, which

547
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 1: is obviously a different experience. But you said you talked

548
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 1: about Hawaii potentially. I got married, took the bar, we

549
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,400
Speaker 1: moved to the Caribbean. I spent a couple of years

550
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,880
Speaker 1: down there in the US Verse in Islands as an attorney.

551
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 1: I'm still licensed down there. And that was a crazy

552
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 1: unique life experience that my wife and I had. We

553
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: didn't have kids yet, all those things. So you come

554
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 1: back and how successful is this business to start to

555
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 1: buy small newspapers because this is before the internet was

556
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 1: taken off. But did you start to look around and say, hey,

557
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 1: maybe the print paper business is not necessarily the wave

558
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: of the future. Yeah. So I picked two niches that

559
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,439
Speaker 1: I thought insulated me from circulation to claim. So the

560
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: first was I wanted to buy community newspapers in the

561
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: growth path of Dallas. Dallas is an absolutely booming metropolis

562
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: to this day and has been for about twenty years.

563
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 1: I mean, fortune companies situating their headquarters in suburbs north

564
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: of Dallas, Homes going up everywhere. I mean, by default, Clay,

565
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: my circulation should go up because thousands of people are

566
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: moving in on a monthly basis. So I picked suburban

567
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: growth path cities to buy newspapers to insulate myself from

568
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: circulation decline. And in the other niche I was interested

569
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: in was the Latino market because it was also a

570
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 1: demographic that was absolutely booming. So, knowing that print was declining,

571
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: I wanted to find some demographics and markets that were

572
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: growing to offset that. How many business how many employees

573
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: did you have? How would you assess the overall success

574
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: of the business. Because you're a young guy to be

575
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: doing this, Yeah, I mean I had I think, uh,

576
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 1: probably at most somewhere around ten a dozen employees. It

577
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 1: was definitely a small business, but it was an absolute success.

578
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: I mean I didn't get generationally wealthy or set myself

579
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 1: up for life, but you know, I quadrupled my money

580
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: and quadrupled my investment on the in and out over

581
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: a three year period. It was it was a good idea. Okay,

582
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: so you finded your quadruple your money, You've done a

583
00:29:55,040 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 1: small business, you've graduated from law school. What then? So

584
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: I had made some money and I was entrepreneurly inclined.

585
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: So then that brings me to the Latino market. The

586
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 1: other market I wanted to be involved in was the

587
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: Hispanic market. Actually switched terms there for a reason. So

588
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: the word Hispanic is a government since this created term,

589
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean a lot. It actually masks over the

590
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: differences of people from Chile to Puerto Rico, Mexico to

591
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: Argentina and pretend that they're all the same. What more,

592
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: it treats everybody who is a first generation immigrant to

593
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 1: a third generation immigrant exactly as they are the same.

594
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: So I had to find something what is truly applicable

595
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: appealing to everybody in the quote unquote Hispanic market, and

596
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: sports doesn't even actually qualify because Caribbean nations are more

597
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 1: into baseball where Latin American nations are more into soccer.

598
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: So what could I find? It truly appealed to everyone.

599
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 1: My wife is from West Texas. In West Texas there's

600
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: much bigger Latino population there is where I grew up,

601
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: at least at that time. Now most of Texas has

602
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: a very large Latino population. So one of the few

603
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: things that everybody from Mexico to Puerto Rico, or actually

604
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: Puerto Rico's to one outlier, but Mexico to Cuba to

605
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 1: South America do is when a young girl turns fifteen,

606
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: she has the Kington era. It's a big coming of

607
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: age party. It's like a bot mitzvah if you're Jewish,

608
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: or a debutante ball if you're from the South. It

609
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: looks like a wedding. It's a huge consumer event. It's

610
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: massively important. And at that time, or just prior to that,

611
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 1: I had gotten married. My wife brought home The Knot.

612
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: Do you remember the Not? The magazine and website that

613
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: helps you play it's a great business. And I used

614
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 1: to see that she brought home that magazine. I was like,

615
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: look at this thing. It's at the editorial content is

616
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: the advertisements they're getting paid to fill out their home pages.

617
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: So I modeled the business on the knot and started

618
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: this magazine, website and event company to help young Latina

619
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: girls plan their Kensan era. How about that? That is amazing?

620
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: So how successful were you as a Keen signior And

621
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: was this around the time that wasn't there a MTV

622
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: show like the Keenson Era like concept? Was this before

623
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: that or around the same time? I think I was

624
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: a little before that, and then you were like a

625
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: kes era. Uh so, how I mean? It sounds like

626
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: it's a crazy idea, but also one that was likely

627
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: to work. Did it work? So here's this business story.

628
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: I raised outside financing from this from a hedge fund,

629
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: some guys that I truly respect. The business got off

630
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: to a great start. We got it off the ground,

631
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: quickly acquired a place in the market with the consumer

632
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: and the advertisers. I made plenty of my own entrepreneurial mistakes,

633
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: and I believe any entrepreneur has to own their own failures.

634
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 1: Two thousand nine happens a recession, and when you were

635
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 1: playing in a tight niche, you don't have a lot

636
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,959
Speaker 1: of room for a market downturn. So at that time

637
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: advertising drives up, the business gets tougher, and I have

638
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: to make a decision do you go back to the

639
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: well and raise more money? And then, as anybody who

640
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: starts a business like this, ask yourself, what's the exit potential?

641
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: Is it worth it on the back end for the

642
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: money I'd have to raise two hopefully cash in on

643
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: the exit. And we decided it was not. It was

644
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: a failure. I failed. Yeah, I always supportant about that,

645
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: Clay go ahead. I'm sorry, No, No, I was gonna say,

646
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: what did you learn? Because that's that's I think the

647
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: biggest question that comes. I mean, this is wins and losses,

648
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 1: and everybody wants to win, but I think oftentimes you

649
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: can learn more losing way more than anything I ever

650
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: learned from winning way more so. The biggest thing I

651
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: learned is this, I know how to make money. I

652
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: know how to succeed. What I need to be cognizant

653
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: of is I need to be passionate every day about

654
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 1: the actual content that I am putting out, about the

655
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: actual business that I'm engaged in. And for better or worse,

656
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: King Sanerra's and the passions of fifteen year old Latino

657
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,959
Speaker 1: girls were not my passion and I made which, by

658
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: the way, would be a lot creepier if it was

659
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: if you were like, yeah, you know, if I were,

660
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: if you're like, you know what I'm really passionate about

661
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 1: as a you know, thirty five year old grown man

662
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 1: fifteen year old girl parties, you'd be like, I don't

663
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: know about that, dude. You might get rich, but you

664
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 1: might also go to jail. Um. That's exactly the lesson

665
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 1: I learned. And then I said to myself, Okay, whatever

666
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,359
Speaker 1: you do next, just really care. And from growing up

667
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 1: at the dinner table debating with my dad to law

668
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 1: school in the Socratic method, in the topics that I

669
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 1: cared about, I always cared about debate, ideas, conversation, and

670
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 1: I just decided at that time, whatever I do next,

671
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to care about it. And this is kind

672
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: of what I care about. I care about debating the

673
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 1: most important ideas in society. So from there you go,

674
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 1: what's the next step. So this is around two thousand

675
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 1: and ten eleven. What's the year and what's the next step?

676
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,879
Speaker 1: So the next step is I start Because I don't

677
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: ever been an entrepreneur and never had a job. As

678
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, I started with a television pilot. I

679
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 1: produced a TV pilot. I decided everything on TV was

680
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 1: not worthy of the national moment. It was Obama McCain,

681
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,919
Speaker 1: or maybe it was Obama Romney, I can't remember the moment,

682
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:20,320
Speaker 1: but it was important, and I created television pilot. It

683
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 1: really didn't go anywhere because, as you know at that time,

684
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 1: networks like Fox or CNN or ESPN for that matter,

685
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 1: don't really buy outside programming. They do it themselves. But

686
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,439
Speaker 1: what it did do is it led a relationship. Led

687
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: to a relationship for me with National Review, which is

688
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 1: a conservative political magazine. And I am conservative with a

689
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 1: libertarian bent in my political ideology. So I started doing

690
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: stuff for National Review for free. This gets to the

691
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: first question you asked me. I was always doing stuff

692
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: for free, always doing stuff below market, whether or not

693
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 1: it was going to work for small town newspapers in

694
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: Central Texas when I had a law degree and my

695
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: buddies were making a d twenty thousand dollars a year

696
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 1: out of law school and I would make nineteen dollars

697
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: writing articles on the school board in Atlanto, Texas or

698
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: working for free at National Review. I told them I'll

699
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 1: do this, but in exchange, I want you to introduce

700
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,919
Speaker 1: me to everybody you know in television. And the first

701
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 1: relationship that really sent me to was Fox News and

702
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,760
Speaker 1: so I started doing stuff for Fox News for free again.

703
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 1: And then one night, after I built up enough television appearances,

704
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: I guessed at the email address of the president of

705
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 1: CNN that time. His name was John Klein, and I

706
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: guessed it was first name dot last name at Turner

707
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,800
Speaker 1: dot com or something, and I sent him an email

708
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 1: and said, you really need somebody like me at CNN.

709
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: Here's a clip, and he responded within fifteen minutes. You're right,

710
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: come on in, let's talk. That's amazing. And so what

711
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 1: did you do at CNN? So, by the way, what

712
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 1: was the first time you were on air ever? Do

713
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: you remember what you were talking about? I don't remember

714
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 1: when exactly it was, but it would have probably been

715
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 1: on Fox News dot com. They used to have a

716
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 1: show called the Strategy Room, And I have no idea

717
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 1: what I was talking about, but that our first time

718
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: on bombitcare? Now that did you go back and watch?

719
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 1: The reason why I ask is did you go back

720
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 1: and watch yourself on television because one of the things

721
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 1: that I think is fascinating is, um, you're coming from

722
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 1: the writing side, and uh, you know, I started writing

723
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: that I did a radio, that I did TV. I

724
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: liked you the first time I ever did television. You

725
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,399
Speaker 1: have to learn how to do television right. You could

726
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: be there as some people who are better at it

727
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 1: like anything else, Like right, there's some people who step

728
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:36,720
Speaker 1: on a basketball court and the first time they shoot

729
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: a basketball, they look natural doing it. But there are

730
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 1: other people who have to work at it a little bit.

731
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 1: And the example I like to use is you have

732
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: to stare right at the television camera or it looks weird, right.

733
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: And that's something that people have never been on television

734
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 1: don't understand. But if you have a normal conversation with

735
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: somebody and you stare at them the whole time, that

736
00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: looks super weird. So automatically, just by being on tell vision,

737
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,800
Speaker 1: you have to do something that is counter to whatever

738
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: you would do in a normal relationship. And the reason

739
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 1: why I bring it up is the first time I

740
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 1: ever went on television, I went back and watched and

741
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 1: somebody kept saying, Man, what were you seeing out of

742
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: the corner of your eye. It was because I was

743
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 1: averting my gaze right Like I wasn't staring at the

744
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: camera because I was treating the camera like it was

745
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,760
Speaker 1: someone else's eyes. But on television, if somebody's not looking

746
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: directly at you, you're like, oh, that person is shifting.

747
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:27,760
Speaker 1: You can't trust them, And it would be the exact

748
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 1: opposite and an in person relationship. So that's why I asked, like,

749
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 1: the first time that you go on, did you go

750
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: back and like sort of scout yourself and be like, Oh,

751
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: I did well there. I moved too much there, Like

752
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: how did you self assess? Because you're good at television,

753
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: how did you self scout to get better? Was there

754
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: any sort of epiphany you had as you were doing television?

755
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 1: So I have a couple of things to say on that.

756
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,320
Speaker 1: When you first started asking me the question, I almost

757
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,800
Speaker 1: dismissed it internally because I was like, just be yourself,

758
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 1: be second nature, be smart. And I do think that's

759
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: where you get Eventually, a guy like you, Clay, who

760
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:03,839
Speaker 1: is smart, You're gonna go in. You're gonna have unique thoughts,

761
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 1: You're gonna be brave enough to share them. Television dynamics

762
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 1: be damned. All of that is small fries compared to

763
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: actually giving people good, intelligent, unique content. That being said,

764
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 1: as you were talking about the question, I did remember

765
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 1: that my first real big boy television appearance was on

766
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 1: Fox and Friends, and it was in the studio. And

767
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,280
Speaker 1: not only is it unnatural to stare into a black box,

768
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 1: as you said, but there's all these other external input.

769
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 1: Two or three people usher you to a chair very quickly.

770
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: They put this thing in your ear that you've never

771
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 1: had before, and all of a sudden you hear things

772
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 1: that are distracting you from what you're thinking about. They

773
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 1: clip a mic on and out the corner of your

774
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: eye you see the other people in the studio, which

775
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,840
Speaker 1: normal circumstances you would be talking directly to talking to

776
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 1: another black box. And then these lights flashed down in

777
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: your face, and everything is distracting you from exactly what

778
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 1: it is you want to say and be natural and

779
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 1: be smart, but you get conditioned to it. I mean,

780
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 1: if somebody gives you the opportunity, and that's key, if

781
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,720
Speaker 1: they give you the opportunity to actually take some balls,

782
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 1: take some strikes, take some cuts to plate, then you

783
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 1: will get used to all of that. I'll tell you this, man,

784
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: I don't go back and watch myself now, and I

785
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,760
Speaker 1: don't know. I might be a mistake. I really probably should,

786
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 1: but I can barely stand to watch myself, much like

787
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: I don't watch. I don't watch now. I thought early on,

788
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: because it's a new discipline. I wanted to know what

789
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 1: what I looked like to other people. Um And now

790
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:30,359
Speaker 1: I never go back and watch, and I don't go

791
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: back and listen very much to radio anymore. But early

792
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 1: on in radio, I noticed that I had ticks right.

793
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,359
Speaker 1: I would say, there would be words that are unnecessary

794
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 1: that I would use, and I tried to knock it out, like,

795
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 1: for instance, I remember the first time I went on

796
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 1: starting to go on as a guest, I said, you

797
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 1: know all the time, and and somebody like somebody reached

798
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: out and they said, did you realize that during the

799
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,399
Speaker 1: course of that fifteen minute interview you said, you know

800
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 1: seventy eight times? So I no way. And you go

801
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 1: back and you listen, and you realize we all have

802
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 1: speech patterns, and maybe you're a little bit more nervous,

803
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: and so you tend to feel like you need to

804
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,359
Speaker 1: fill that silence and so you learn how to do

805
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 1: it better. But I think you can overtrain right and uh,

806
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 1: but I think early on there are important lessons that

807
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,439
Speaker 1: you can pick up because doing television well require some

808
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 1: unnatural reactions in order to look natural, if that makes sense. Well,

809
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 1: talking about those verbal ticks, there's a contagion at places

810
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 1: like MSNBC. It's not just that you have to wear eyeglasses,

811
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 1: but that you say the word right at the end

812
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 1: of every sentence, so that that's forced the listener to

813
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 1: agree with every point you're making. Right. And so I

814
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: have another really intelligent point that I'm gonna need to

815
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 1: put these glasses on four and you're gonna like it right.

816
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 1: And I can't stand that verbal tick that is seemingly

817
00:41:56,080 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 1: contagious at MSNBC. Um, you don't win. There's something you

818
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 1: and I agree on, and that is the best mechanism

819
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 1: for developing your thoughts. And the best medium out there

820
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 1: is absolutely radio. You talked about honing your craft and

821
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 1: how you talk. Radio teaches you, I think the right

822
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 1: way to do it, because you first of all have

823
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 1: a big runway, you have elbow room. You can actually

824
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 1: explain your thoughts. You can connect with the listener in

825
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: a way then no other platform really can connect. But

826
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:26,840
Speaker 1: you shouldn't take that for granted. And I think most

827
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: people who in radio do take it for granted. They think,

828
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: turn the blue light on, start talking, and I will

829
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 1: be interesting enough, And it's not true. So what you

830
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: learn to hone is the order of your thoughts. Tell

831
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: the audience what you're talking about, tell them what your

832
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: point of view is, give them almost your conclusion to start,

833
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 1: and then back it up after so they know what

834
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 1: the hell we're talking about. You do continue throughout your

835
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: career to learn how to hone your message in a

836
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,879
Speaker 1: way that makes people want to listen. And I think

837
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 1: radio is absolutely the best mechanism learning that. How did

838
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 1: you go from CNN to ESPN? So that in my career,

839
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 1: art to me is the least interesting part of my

840
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: career because at that point it becomes more traditional. So

841
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 1: at some point at CNN and then there was a

842
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 1: little stretch Clay where I had some appearances on the

843
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 1: view and there was the potential for me to become

844
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: one of the first male hosts. Yeah yeah. In fact,

845
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 1: I got to know Whoopi Goldberg during that time, went

846
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 1: out to her house asked her for career advice. But

847
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 1: throughout that process, I decided that the career wasn't going

848
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 1: where I wanted to go. So I switched agents. I

849
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: switched to C A A, which I know you're there.

850
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 1: I'm no longer at A, but I switched to C

851
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: A A. I switched to Nick con and Nick has

852
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 1: deep relationships in sports. Um he knew that I had

853
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 1: deep interest in sports, and he started to guide me

854
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 1: towards the ESPN. I developed relationships with some people. There's

855
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 1: some very good people there, like Rob Savanelli invested in me,

856
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,320
Speaker 1: who understands what it is to think outside the box.

857
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 1: And it actually took a couple of years for those

858
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:10,879
Speaker 1: relationships to coalesce into hiring me at ESPN. But it really,

859
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 1: honestly is a more traditional hiring process than sending a

860
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 1: dude an email in the middle of the night. So

861
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:19,839
Speaker 1: let's talk about ESPN and some of the ways that

862
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 1: sports media covers sports in general. You obviously had a

863
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 1: lot of success at ESPN. You mentioned your radio show.

864
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: You mentioned you didn't mention it, but you were on

865
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 1: first take. Did you feel comfortable sharing what you actually

866
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: thought initially at ESPN and why do you think it

867
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 1: is in sports media. We talked a lot about political

868
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 1: bias that exists in the media at large, but I

869
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 1: would argue that there is more of a self selecting

870
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 1: bias almost in sports than in the political arena at all.

871
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:56,400
Speaker 1: Why do you think that is. There's a couple of

872
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 1: broad questions, but I'm just kind of curious what your

873
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: experience was there. When I first joined the ESPN, I

874
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 1: first got a little more invested in the sports media world,

875
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 1: and I should say in the sports media world, because

876
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:11,720
Speaker 1: you asked me earlier, was I always invested in sports?

877
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 1: My first real memory is NFC Championship game. It's versus

878
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 1: the Cowboys and Joe Montana throwing up a prayer that

879
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,800
Speaker 1: Dwight Clark brings down and catch him on his fingers

880
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 1: and make six year old Will cry. I have loved

881
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:28,240
Speaker 1: sports since I was a kid, deeply and paid attention

882
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 1: at every step. But when I really joined the espiis

883
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 1: when I started paying attention to sports media. And I

884
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 1: came across you, and one of the things you said

885
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 1: at that time was sports media is even more insular

886
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 1: and more monolithic in terms of point of view than

887
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 1: political media. And you were absolutely right. It is further

888
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:55,280
Speaker 1: left and more monolithically left than any other news media,

889
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 1: and that is saying something because the rest of news

890
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 1: is also incredibly biased and leaning left. Um, why does

891
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: that happen? So there's a self selection mechanism, like you

892
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 1: talked about, of people who choose to go into media.

893
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: I think, just like most people in the oil industry

894
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: tend to be conservative, the people that choose to go

895
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 1: into media tend to be on the left. But that

896
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: doesn't mean it's exclusive. There are people who share my

897
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 1: points of view, and this now brings in the other

898
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 1: self selection mechanism. What you bring up is whether or

899
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 1: not you want to share those out loud. It wasn't

900
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:31,399
Speaker 1: hard for me at all. Man. I had come from

901
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 1: politics that was much more rough and tumble, and I

902
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 1: was maybe even naive that my point of view would

903
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: be so out of the ordinary in sports. So I

904
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: never thought twice. I never thought about the cost, not

905
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 1: that I would have changed anyway, because I don't really

906
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:48,840
Speaker 1: think I have that capability, but it's only increased. And

907
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 1: you know that everyone listening knows that. I mean, if

908
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 1: you share a point of view that the guardians of

909
00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: sports media, whether or not. Those are the critics, the loggers,

910
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 1: the on air talentcy executives, whoever it may be, don't

911
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 1: like you are absolutely at risk of being branded a racist.

912
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: You're at risk of being branded someone on the wrong

913
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 1: side of history and that moral and you really should,

914
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:17,840
Speaker 1: in their estimation, have your platform taken away? Has that

915
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 1: gotten worse every year as you were at ESPN And

916
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 1: do you attribute that to social media? Do you attributed

917
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 1: to Donald Trump? I think everything you said is true.

918
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 1: Why did it continue to grow? It seems like to

919
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 1: me because you talked about earlier in our conversation the

920
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:35,839
Speaker 1: fact that you got a twelve year old and you're

921
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:38,759
Speaker 1: not sure if college is the right idea for him,

922
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 1: because college used to be, in a traditional sense, a

923
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 1: place where people went to challenge their mind. You may

924
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 1: not be a communist, but you learn about communism. You

925
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 1: may not be a hard core capitalist, but you learn

926
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 1: about capitalism. Right. You challenge your mind so that you're

927
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 1: more comfortable and aware of the world. You expand your

928
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 1: universe of comprehension. It seems to me now that so

929
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,399
Speaker 1: much of what goes on is sideloed and you're only

930
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 1: allowed to have one idea I've seen it just grow

931
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 1: at an exponential rate. Since all the Corona bros out

932
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:12,399
Speaker 1: there are worried about exponential growth, what I have seen

933
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 1: to actually grow exponentially is in my career. So I

934
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 1: started out kicking two thousand eleven. Um. You know, we

935
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 1: were a zany kind of fun, college football centered sports

936
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 1: site for several years, and then along the way, I

937
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,840
Speaker 1: was like, wait a minute, Suddenly there's only one opinion

938
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 1: that you can have, and it seems like it's just

939
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 1: accelerated to such an extent where here as we set

940
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 1: having this conversation in it feels almost like the McCarthy era.

941
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 1: Obviously we're super young, but we study history where there's

942
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 1: only one right answer for things. How did you see

943
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 1: that evolve inside of ESPN and also just in the

944
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 1: larger sports media. She's had a couple of things there

945
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 1: I want to respond to. Let's start with college and

946
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,879
Speaker 1: then we'll get to sports media and ESPN. I've been

947
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 1: having this conversation with myself as drove around the country.

948
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 1: You talked about the role of college in the traditional

949
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 1: success path of the American dream. It's absolutely true. You

950
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 1: can see the stats were at large if a child

951
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 1: goes to college, the likelihood he makes X dollars is

952
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 1: multiplied exponentially. The likelihood he's going to be a success

953
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 1: goes remarkably up. And we should therefore obviously focus on

954
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: education higher education. But I've been thinking about that more

955
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:26,439
Speaker 1: and more. What does that require? What does that mean?

956
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 1: And what it means is you're going to go to

957
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 1: an institution where they are going to require you to

958
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 1: fall into lockstep with their point of view. And even

959
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 1: if you were okay with that in exchange for being

960
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 1: a success in life, I would ask you what is

961
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 1: success in It's going into corporate America and then falling

962
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 1: into other institutions which are shown to be some of

963
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 1: the most spineless leaders in American history, who will say

964
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 1: if you don't fall inline, not only were not going

965
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 1: to promote you, if you don't submit to the majority

966
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 1: point of view, or rather, i'm sorry, the minority ex

967
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,320
Speaker 1: dreamly loud point of view, then we're going to potentially

968
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 1: fire you. I started thinking about who I want my

969
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:08,760
Speaker 1: sons to be. I'm like, is being rich that important?

970
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 1: Is being quote unquote successful so important that you have

971
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 1: to sell out your principles, your values, your manhood, that

972
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: you have to just fall in line, that you have

973
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:20,919
Speaker 1: to agree or be fired, that you tuck your tail

974
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 1: between your legs and you went for your way to

975
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 1: your golden handcuffs. I don't want that for my kids.

976
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 1: Don't want them to be men and if college and

977
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 1: that traditional success path to find that's the kind of

978
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 1: person they're gonna be. I have real doubts and concerns

979
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:36,759
Speaker 1: about it. I'd rather them go be a man in

980
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 1: Montana and learn how to make a living on his

981
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:41,799
Speaker 1: own and live by his own principles. That's what I

982
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 1: am right now. But again, I'm all talked. I got

983
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 1: six years to figure this out. That's fantastic. And then

984
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 1: the other part of that, because that was such an

985
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:54,360
Speaker 1: interesting answer, like the evolution at your time at ESPN,

986
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 1: did you see a sort of what I would say

987
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:02,840
Speaker 1: is shrinking of the the universe of acceptable opinion? To

988
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 1: kind of sum it up, like it seems as if

989
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 1: with social media and sports media in particular, that the

990
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 1: number of opinions that someone is allowed to have the

991
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 1: space for those opinions has increasingly shrunk. Would you agree

992
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 1: with that and did you notice it? And how would

993
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 1: you attribute that to occurring? Why did it occur? So

994
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:23,720
Speaker 1: let's talk about ESPN and the sports media and why occurred.

995
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:25,879
Speaker 1: So I will say this, no one in five years

996
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:28,880
Speaker 1: at ESPN ever told me what to say or what

997
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:32,399
Speaker 1: I could not say. No one at ESPN made me

998
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:37,800
Speaker 1: feel unwanted. The executives there, I truly believe wanted most

999
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 1: of the time me on the network. There might have

1000
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:42,840
Speaker 1: been times when they thought I'm not right for a

1001
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 1: certain show or a certain audience. They might have had

1002
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 1: their doubts about me personally. I'll never know because they

1003
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 1: didn't share it. But I felt fairly comfortable at ESPN

1004
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:55,840
Speaker 1: in terms of support. But I was an outlier. Everybody

1005
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,359
Speaker 1: knows that. You know that my opinion was in the

1006
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 1: minority there. In two thousand sixteen, you really saw this

1007
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:05,359
Speaker 1: stuff take off, right Colin Kaepernick Niels and we begin

1008
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,839
Speaker 1: to have these conversations around race. They weren't exclusively around race.

1009
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 1: There was trans issues, There was issues about sexual assault charges.

1010
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 1: We talked about principles earlier. Clay, I'm a big believer

1011
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:20,320
Speaker 1: in reasonable doubt, in burden of proof. Almost every accusation

1012
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 1: against an athlete, be they black, white, man, or woman.

1013
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 1: I just want you to make your case before you

1014
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 1: brand and and totally condemned them as guilty. So all

1015
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 1: of these issues are sensitive, and it starts to really

1016
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 1: peak more than two thousand sixteen, and I do think

1017
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 1: it goes away in sevent nine. And then the answer

1018
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 1: your question, I don't think this is unique to ESPN.

1019
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:44,400
Speaker 1: I think it's in sports media writ large, and I

1020
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:46,840
Speaker 1: think it's in media at large. Over the last six months,

1021
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 1: this idea that you can only have one a point

1022
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 1: of view has absolutely had rocket boosters on it. Again,

1023
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:55,839
Speaker 1: it did never manifest in we don't want will on air.

1024
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:58,799
Speaker 1: ESPN supported me, they wanted me, they wanted me to

1025
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:02,239
Speaker 1: stay at ESPN. My contract was up and we were negotiating.

1026
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:06,439
Speaker 1: But I think the role of social media, the role

1027
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 1: of blogs and critics, the role of like mindedness and

1028
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:15,439
Speaker 1: media has really forced everything to become monolithically one point

1029
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 1: of view. How does it change fracturization. Honestly, it changes

1030
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 1: with probably institutions like OutKick. It changes because media will

1031
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: continue to be made up of smaller, more independent, more

1032
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 1: independently minded organizations. From you and Jason and Bobby and

1033
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 1: Ryan and all the guys over there to OutKick and

1034
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: what you're doing to Portnoy and Big Cat and what

1035
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 1: those guys are doing at barstool, guys like Ben Shapiro.

1036
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:50,359
Speaker 1: I think kata fracture up and that's where independence will

1037
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:55,120
Speaker 1: be earned. How much does creative freedom matter to you?

1038
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:59,239
Speaker 1: Being able to say exactly what you think and not

1039
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:03,319
Speaker 1: have to war worry about it costing you your job? Incredibly?

1040
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 1: I loved the Will Kaine Show. I mean, Clay, you

1041
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 1: do radio. I think you can probably identify with this.

1042
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 1: I love the idea that there was three hours of

1043
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 1: blank space every day and I pretty much could talk

1044
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 1: about whatever I want. However I wanted to shape those

1045
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:21,440
Speaker 1: three hours meant the world to me. I just indicted

1046
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 1: mainstream media and big media companies writ large. I will

1047
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:26,840
Speaker 1: say this to you, and I'm not saying it because

1048
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 1: I'm being a good soldier. It was one of the

1049
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 1: decisions that led me to joining them. But Fox News

1050
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:35,480
Speaker 1: is an institution that has shown backbone and leadership and

1051
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:38,840
Speaker 1: willingness to stand up against online mobs and cancel culture

1052
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:43,719
Speaker 1: and embrace I truly believe this embrace differing viewpoints on

1053
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 1: their airwaves. I would there is no mainstream media, big

1054
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:52,880
Speaker 1: media company that I would rather work for. Than Fox News.

1055
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 1: Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in

1056
00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:59,480
Speaker 1: the nation. Catch all of our shows at Fox Sports

1057
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 1: Radio dot com and within the I Heart Radio app.

1058
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:05,799
Speaker 1: Search f s R to listen live. We're talking to

1059
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:10,080
Speaker 1: Will Kaine Wins and Losses. I'm Clay Travis. Um. Why

1060
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:12,359
Speaker 1: do you think? So? Let me take a step back.

1061
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 1: Did you feel as if you were disliked internally at

1062
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 1: ESPN by other people on air because of your opinions

1063
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:26,680
Speaker 1: or did you have really good relationships with people behind

1064
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 1: the scenes, even if publicly sometimes they disagreed with you.

1065
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 1: How would you assess your overall experience with co workers

1066
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 1: at ESPN given the fact that you were outspoken and

1067
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:40,800
Speaker 1: frankly sometimes uh not supported by a lot of other people,

1068
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 1: at least publicly in what you were saying, The vast

1069
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 1: majority relationships were really good. I mean that really good.

1070
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:51,800
Speaker 1: I hope they were all authentic. Um. I really think

1071
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 1: that they did appreciate me, did like me, did take

1072
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:57,919
Speaker 1: the time to invest and understand who I am, why

1073
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:00,839
Speaker 1: I think what I think. I'm sure there are some

1074
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 1: who didn't like me. The truth is about those that

1075
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 1: didn't like me, we probably didn't interact a whole lot.

1076
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 1: They probably didn't give me a shot, didn't really invest

1077
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:10,360
Speaker 1: in understanding who I was. But for the vast majority

1078
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 1: of relationships whennot they were Stephen A. Smith or Marcus

1079
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 1: Spears or Damie al Woody or Dan Orlovsky or Tim Hasselbeck,

1080
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:20,360
Speaker 1: there were good relationships that I sincerely hope to maintain.

1081
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:23,280
Speaker 1: How often would people come up to you at ESPN

1082
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:25,880
Speaker 1: and say, I don't want people to know it, but

1083
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:28,359
Speaker 1: I agree with a huge percentage of what you say,

1084
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:35,320
Speaker 1: keep doing it. It happened. It definitely happened. And you know, Clay,

1085
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 1: I heard you talk about that because I remember you

1086
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:39,239
Speaker 1: talk about people that would send you messages behind I

1087
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 1: I have a just so you know, and I'm this

1088
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:43,680
Speaker 1: is not going to shock you. There are I have

1089
00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:46,000
Speaker 1: a lot of really good friends at ESPN. People are like, oh,

1090
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 1: you know, I don't look I I have a lot

1091
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:50,480
Speaker 1: of really people that I considered to be good friends

1092
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:53,840
Speaker 1: and also good professional friends. And many of those people

1093
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:56,000
Speaker 1: reach out to me regularly and they say, man, I

1094
00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:58,839
Speaker 1: love out kick, I love what you're doing. Keep doing it.

1095
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:01,319
Speaker 1: H You're right in a lot of the criticisms that

1096
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:04,319
Speaker 1: you levy about sports media and ESPN is obviously the

1097
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:07,680
Speaker 1: biggest mirror to reflect sports media. I don't think it's

1098
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 1: an ESPN exclusive issue. I think they just are bigger,

1099
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:14,040
Speaker 1: so they magnify sometimes more. Uh So, I know there

1100
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:17,480
Speaker 1: is a deep well of people at ESPN with a

1101
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 1: strong belief system in uh in things that might seem counterintuitive.

1102
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 1: And Jason Whitlock, I thought recently said uh that that

1103
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:27,280
Speaker 1: he thinks that it goes on in sports media too,

1104
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 1: where there's a lot of guys making seventy five thousand

1105
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 1: dollars a year out there and they got to take

1106
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 1: care of their family, and they're like, man, I can

1107
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 1: say what I actually think on social media, but if

1108
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 1: I do, I might lose my job, and then it's

1109
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 1: not easy for me to go get another seventy five

1110
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 1: or a hundred thousand dollar job. I'm fifty six years old.

1111
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:47,480
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to play out the thread on my career.

1112
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:49,720
Speaker 1: I think there's a huge number of people out there

1113
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:51,520
Speaker 1: like that. But I'm curious whether they come up to

1114
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 1: you internally and whether you had some of those conversations

1115
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 1: as well. I did, And I would say three things

1116
00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:00,439
Speaker 1: in response to that. I think the number of people

1117
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 1: who agree with what I have to say is actually growing.

1118
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:06,640
Speaker 1: I think as the points of view have gotten more extreme.

1119
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:09,440
Speaker 1: I'm not just talking about ESPN. I'm talking about in

1120
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:12,440
Speaker 1: the nation as a whole, but particularly in the media

1121
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 1: as a whole, and the need even more particularly in

1122
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:18,680
Speaker 1: sports media, has gotten more extreme. I think more people

1123
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 1: are um gravitating to my positions once they see grounded

1124
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:26,400
Speaker 1: in reason and rationality, and they're starting to see the

1125
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:29,080
Speaker 1: cost of some of these extreme points of view. Trust me,

1126
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:31,920
Speaker 1: I live in New York City. I can tell you firsthand.

1127
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 1: I have seen the cost of these kind of ideas implemented.

1128
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 1: Number two, Um, I can't help it, and I would

1129
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 1: tell my friends this. I am a little disappointed sometimes

1130
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:47,360
Speaker 1: that they feel this way privately but don't say it publicly.

1131
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:50,600
Speaker 1: I mean sometimes it can be even as as an

1132
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 1: oxuous is saying I think wil Kaine is good or

1133
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:56,480
Speaker 1: Wilkaine is right, or you know, one of those statements

1134
00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:59,200
Speaker 1: that somehow ends up being controversial. I do wish a

1135
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:03,120
Speaker 1: little bit people were more forthcoming with their points of view.

1136
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 1: But then my third point is I understand, just like

1137
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 1: you said with Whitlock, I understand it's a very rational

1138
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 1: choice to make to be quiet. Your job will probably

1139
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:16,720
Speaker 1: be threatened, your reputation will most definitely be threatened, And

1140
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:20,320
Speaker 1: so I understand why people would make those very rational

1141
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 1: self preservationist um choices. How often have you written a

1142
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:31,600
Speaker 1: tweet and deleted it before you sent it? Um? This

1143
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:34,840
Speaker 1: is a real weakness in my game. I don't love Twitter.

1144
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 1: I don't love social media. You're really good at it,

1145
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 1: you truly are. I don't tweet a ton. You probably

1146
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:43,960
Speaker 1: know that, and it's good for your career. You as

1147
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:47,720
Speaker 1: in the proverbial you everyone because you have to be heard.

1148
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 1: I just think it's a really crap platform, Clay. I

1149
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 1: just don't think it lends itself to any sort of

1150
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:57,200
Speaker 1: really interesting thoughts. It doesn't lend itself to back and force.

1151
00:59:57,280 --> 01:00:01,560
Speaker 1: It's extremely negative, and I actually think, like your colleague

1152
01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 1: Jason has said inny Times, I actually think it's a

1153
01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:06,720
Speaker 1: really big contributors to the negativity going on in society.

1154
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:10,440
Speaker 1: So I don't really tweet delete, tweet delete, I just

1155
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 1: honestly don't tweet that much. I need to, I need

1156
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:16,320
Speaker 1: to tweet more. I know it's good for my career,

1157
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 1: and I get all myself about it. I just don't

1158
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:22,080
Speaker 1: like the platform. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I I

1159
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:27,640
Speaker 1: totally understand that that perspective, and I feel like Twitter

1160
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:31,480
Speaker 1: has been great for me personally and awful for the

1161
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:34,920
Speaker 1: country as a whole. And that dichotomy that I feel is,

1162
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:37,560
Speaker 1: I do think it. It has helped to elevate what

1163
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:40,040
Speaker 1: we do at out kick, It's helped to distribute our

1164
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 1: ideas to a larger audience. But I also think that

1165
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 1: the overall tone of Twitter is so negative. I'll tell

1166
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:49,439
Speaker 1: you what I've done, and and this has been really

1167
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:53,200
Speaker 1: in the last couple of years. I rarely read mentions, right,

1168
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 1: other than the people that I follow, Like I'll go

1169
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:57,680
Speaker 1: and see what they're tweeting about and stuff like that.

1170
01:00:57,760 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 1: I enjoy it, and certainly I enjoy it for news,

1171
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 1: but it's it's interesting, Like as a writer, I learned

1172
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:06,480
Speaker 1: years and years ago never read the mentions to what

1173
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:08,840
Speaker 1: people write but below your article, and I would never

1174
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:12,560
Speaker 1: do it. But there's something seductive, and certainly our industry

1175
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:15,640
Speaker 1: creates a lot of narcissists, right, I mean, it's not

1176
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:17,240
Speaker 1: a surprise that if you decide you want to be

1177
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:19,400
Speaker 1: on television or you want people to pay attention to you,

1178
01:01:19,640 --> 01:01:23,520
Speaker 1: that you may well have narcissistic tendencies. And what Twitter creates,

1179
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:27,520
Speaker 1: I believe, is the idea that everybody cares about everything

1180
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 1: that you think because there's one or two people constantly

1181
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:34,120
Speaker 1: in your mentioned saying it. And I think the mentions

1182
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:39,600
Speaker 1: are actually more troubling and problematic than the actual megaphone

1183
01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:42,080
Speaker 1: of Twitter. And so what I've found is it's like

1184
01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 1: every YouTube comment threat eventually ends in a fight. If

1185
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:47,720
Speaker 1: you're a sports fan and you go on any sports

1186
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:50,680
Speaker 1: message board, people start off talking about whether the backup

1187
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:53,440
Speaker 1: quarterbacks should be starting or not, and eventually it ends

1188
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:56,120
Speaker 1: up in an attack between two different people over something

1189
01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:58,320
Speaker 1: that has nothing to do with it. Most of what

1190
01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:01,640
Speaker 1: people say on Twitter, even the mentions underneath what I

1191
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 1: have said or what you have said, I have found

1192
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:06,160
Speaker 1: is about them, not about you. And it's not that

1193
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:09,160
Speaker 1: efficient or effective of a use of time. It's a megaphone,

1194
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:12,840
Speaker 1: not a conversational device. And once I kind of got

1195
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 1: that idea around it and stopped caring about what people

1196
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 1: say in response, I think that has been a more

1197
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:21,920
Speaker 1: effective tool for me to use to go out. Well

1198
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:24,400
Speaker 1: a couple of things. I think that's really disciplined. That

1199
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 1: shows a lot of disciplines, and I look at your mentions.

1200
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:29,600
Speaker 1: It's the right choice. But it's also actually a pretty

1201
01:02:29,600 --> 01:02:32,560
Speaker 1: difficult thing to do because everyone's instinct is what are

1202
01:02:32,560 --> 01:02:35,320
Speaker 1: people saying about what I just said said, which is why,

1203
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:38,440
Speaker 1: which is why, which is why the app works. Right.

1204
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:41,160
Speaker 1: It goes right into our primal instinct to see what

1205
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:44,040
Speaker 1: other people think about us, whether they like it, whether

1206
01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:46,120
Speaker 1: they retweet it, whether they hate us like it's a

1207
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:49,200
Speaker 1: It goes to the primal instincts. I understand why it works,

1208
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 1: and yes, it is fascinating. Yeah, you brought up narcissism,

1209
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:54,840
Speaker 1: and you're absolutely right about the people that choose to

1210
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:58,240
Speaker 1: go into media are largely narcissistic in some way. Now,

1211
01:02:58,240 --> 01:03:02,040
Speaker 1: what is narcissism. It is not confidence, but it's insecurity.

1212
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:04,280
Speaker 1: It's a need for an ego feed and it's the

1213
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:06,439
Speaker 1: opposite of how I like to engage. I just sung

1214
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:09,320
Speaker 1: the praises of the platform of radio to you just

1215
01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:12,080
Speaker 1: a moment ago, but I treated radio as an open forum.

1216
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:15,000
Speaker 1: If you disagreed with me, I wanted you to call in.

1217
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:17,640
Speaker 1: I know you've done the same thing because all the time, yes,

1218
01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:20,360
Speaker 1: I want to hear you, I want you to challenge

1219
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:24,200
Speaker 1: my ideas. Where Twitter is full of that insecurity. See,

1220
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:26,439
Speaker 1: that's how a man handles his business. In my mind,

1221
01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:30,000
Speaker 1: that is confidence, that is quote unquote face to face

1222
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:32,680
Speaker 1: right where Twitter, I feel, is full of even more

1223
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:37,400
Speaker 1: insecurity and more little backstabby, back and forth fight. I'm

1224
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:39,880
Speaker 1: gonna give you an example that this isn't about you, Okay.

1225
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:44,760
Speaker 1: I haven't agreed with everything you had to say on coronavirus. Honestly,

1226
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:48,480
Speaker 1: I think you're probably right on coronavirus. But that's higher

1227
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:50,440
Speaker 1: percentage that my wife believes, by the way, so I'll

1228
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:53,360
Speaker 1: take it. Well. I think you were, especially in the beginning.

1229
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:55,360
Speaker 1: I think you were a little too dismissive of coronavirus.

1230
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:58,080
Speaker 1: I think you're having totally totally wrong. I got the

1231
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:00,800
Speaker 1: I believe the China numbers, which was a failure. I

1232
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:06,720
Speaker 1: trusted the WHO. Yeah, like it's right. I mean, you know,

1233
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:10,160
Speaker 1: I try to get my facts right, and when I

1234
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:13,560
Speaker 1: base an opinion on a failed fact factual model, I

1235
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:16,080
Speaker 1: mean that's what actually makes me feel sick to my stomach.

1236
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:18,640
Speaker 1: Not being wrong about who's gonna win a game? Right,

1237
01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:21,200
Speaker 1: like whatever you can, but when your facts are wrong,

1238
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:24,320
Speaker 1: it leads you to the wrong destination, and that's one

1239
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 1: of the big problems with Twitter. There's a lot of

1240
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:28,080
Speaker 1: factual and accuracies in general. But yes, sorry to cut

1241
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:31,240
Speaker 1: you off. Yes that is I'll take that's higher than

1242
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:34,960
Speaker 1: my wife. Um. By the way, I do that with everybody,

1243
01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:36,800
Speaker 1: and it's a sign of respect. I think to sell

1244
01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:38,720
Speaker 1: someone where I think they were wrong, I don't like

1245
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 1: the oh you're always right stuff. Yeah, Um, I think

1246
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:43,520
Speaker 1: you were also wrong on Greg Siano. For what it's worth,

1247
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:45,640
Speaker 1: I don't think what you did at University of Tennessee

1248
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:47,240
Speaker 1: was a good thing. I thought you didn't give him

1249
01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:49,400
Speaker 1: the benefit of the doubt, as we talked about burden

1250
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:51,200
Speaker 1: of proof earlier. But all I'm doing by that, it's

1251
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:53,680
Speaker 1: not rehashing those debates with you. I'm telling you like

1252
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:56,000
Speaker 1: I'm willing to tell everyone where I think they're wrong.

1253
01:04:56,360 --> 01:04:58,200
Speaker 1: And I don't see it as a sign of disrespect.

1254
01:04:58,280 --> 01:05:00,760
Speaker 1: I see it as the opposite, a sign kind of respect.

1255
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:03,240
Speaker 1: And now to take this back to full circle, by

1256
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:06,200
Speaker 1: the way, you're right on almost everything. Otherwise, I mean,

1257
01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:09,040
Speaker 1: you're right we should play college football. You're right on

1258
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:10,760
Speaker 1: on on a lot of these things. But I saw

1259
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:12,720
Speaker 1: that back and forth with Revel and I'm just like,

1260
01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:15,280
Speaker 1: you know, I can have a conversation with Clay about

1261
01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:17,440
Speaker 1: coronavirus for a while. It may not be that interesting

1262
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:19,600
Speaker 1: because we might mostly agree. But whatever is going on

1263
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:22,400
Speaker 1: with Rebel and Clay right now, it's probably entertaining for

1264
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:26,320
Speaker 1: a lot of people, But like you know, it's not productive.

1265
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:28,840
Speaker 1: You know, it's not working to help solve the issue.

1266
01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 1: It's it's just you guys going back and forth at

1267
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:35,080
Speaker 1: each other and really extending no goodwill to each other.

1268
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:37,200
Speaker 1: By the way, Clay, I don't think you're wrong on

1269
01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:39,200
Speaker 1: that side of the debate. I think Darren is wrong.

1270
01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:41,480
Speaker 1: I think Darren is like all these guys you call

1271
01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:45,120
Speaker 1: Corona Bros. And caving into I guess the new normal,

1272
01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:47,800
Speaker 1: which has not been the curve but zero percent transmission

1273
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:50,480
Speaker 1: rate and peddling in fear. I think Darren is doing

1274
01:05:50,520 --> 01:05:53,240
Speaker 1: all of those things. But I just don't feel personally

1275
01:05:53,240 --> 01:05:56,040
Speaker 1: compelled to go to Twitter and have that fight with him. Yeah,

1276
01:05:56,080 --> 01:05:58,080
Speaker 1: it's an interesting boy. I like Darren. You know, I

1277
01:05:58,120 --> 01:06:00,120
Speaker 1: consider Darren to be a friend. He may be that

1278
01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:03,120
Speaker 1: with me now, and this kind of goes to, uh,

1279
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:06,320
Speaker 1: the way I live life in general. It's really hard

1280
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:10,040
Speaker 1: to offend me and what And I'm curious if you've

1281
01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:12,080
Speaker 1: found this. I mean, I think you may well be

1282
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:15,960
Speaker 1: similar in that respect. If somebody disagrees with me, I

1283
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:20,480
Speaker 1: take my opinion seriously, but I don't take myself very seriously.

1284
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:23,640
Speaker 1: And so if somebody's like, hey, you're an idiot for

1285
01:06:23,680 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 1: that opinion, I'm wide open to the idea that I

1286
01:06:26,680 --> 01:06:29,160
Speaker 1: might be wrong, right, it doesn't bother me. And maybe

1287
01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:31,680
Speaker 1: that's the lawyer as well, where you're used to having

1288
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:34,760
Speaker 1: to make opinions and sometimes the judge comes down or

1289
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:37,600
Speaker 1: the court comes down, or whoever. The deciding factor is

1290
01:06:37,640 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 1: if you're in law school, mood court, mock trial, whatever

1291
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:42,120
Speaker 1: it is, somebody comes down and says, hey, this side

1292
01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:44,400
Speaker 1: with a better argument. And so that's kind of how

1293
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:47,640
Speaker 1: the law works. One side wins, one side loses. It's

1294
01:06:47,680 --> 01:06:51,240
Speaker 1: adversarial and system kind of like sports. And so I

1295
01:06:51,280 --> 01:06:54,480
Speaker 1: don't get upset, and I have short memories even for

1296
01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:57,160
Speaker 1: people who attack me. And I don't know if that's

1297
01:06:57,200 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 1: a character benefit or a character flaw. Is what my

1298
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:03,080
Speaker 1: wife says is you're the guy if if people say

1299
01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:06,840
Speaker 1: ten negatives and one person says a positive, you remember

1300
01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:09,480
Speaker 1: the positive and and and it is true, like that

1301
01:07:09,520 --> 01:07:13,600
Speaker 1: helps you on Twitter. That's that's true. So I I

1302
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:17,320
Speaker 1: have a psychology where I don't get that worked up

1303
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:21,000
Speaker 1: by people being disagreeing with me. Does that makes sense?

1304
01:07:21,040 --> 01:07:23,640
Speaker 1: Like it? It doesn't really kind of, And I don't

1305
01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:27,360
Speaker 1: know what that is about my psychology. I think I

1306
01:07:27,480 --> 01:07:30,960
Speaker 1: know what it is. Would ane it? Well? I think

1307
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:34,640
Speaker 1: you're confident in who you are. It's it's you know.

1308
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:36,840
Speaker 1: Somebody asked me for radio advice this morning, and I

1309
01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:39,000
Speaker 1: told him exactly what you just said. Take what you

1310
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:42,160
Speaker 1: say very seriously. Do not take yourself seriously. But the

1311
01:07:42,200 --> 01:07:44,640
Speaker 1: corollary to that is if you're confident enough about who

1312
01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:47,520
Speaker 1: you are, not just being told you're wrong. But in

1313
01:07:47,560 --> 01:07:49,680
Speaker 1: the case of my radio show, I allowed people in

1314
01:07:49,720 --> 01:07:51,680
Speaker 1: the air to say you are a racist to me

1315
01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:54,280
Speaker 1: on air. I required them to back it up, and

1316
01:07:54,320 --> 01:07:57,040
Speaker 1: I sometimes got mad, but I usually got over it

1317
01:07:57,040 --> 01:07:59,160
Speaker 1: pretty quickly. I do have a hot temper, but I

1318
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:02,120
Speaker 1: get over it pretty quickly, and I will let that

1319
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:04,800
Speaker 1: person come back on my radio show. But the end

1320
01:08:05,560 --> 01:08:08,080
Speaker 1: underlying factor is I know who I am and they

1321
01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:10,760
Speaker 1: get to define it. I define who I am. I

1322
01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:13,480
Speaker 1: imagine you feel somewhat the same way. So I don't

1323
01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:16,479
Speaker 1: hold really big grudges, but I don't get that mad

1324
01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:19,719
Speaker 1: when somebody tells me I'm wrong. Yeah, I'm very confident

1325
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:22,600
Speaker 1: in what I believe and if I were. What I

1326
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:25,000
Speaker 1: always say is the people you have to watch out

1327
01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:27,479
Speaker 1: for are the people that are trying too hard to

1328
01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:29,680
Speaker 1: tell you what they are. And what I mean by

1329
01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:31,479
Speaker 1: that is I've just seen it happen in social media

1330
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:34,120
Speaker 1: so many times. Like, the guys who are the biggest

1331
01:08:34,160 --> 01:08:37,400
Speaker 1: creeps are not the people who are out there, uh,

1332
01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:39,679
Speaker 1: They're the people that are out there going way over

1333
01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:43,599
Speaker 1: the top with stuff, right Like, time after time after time,

1334
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:46,120
Speaker 1: they're trying to cover up for something. I'll give you

1335
01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:50,280
Speaker 1: an easy example, the people who are fundamentally like opposed

1336
01:08:50,320 --> 01:08:53,640
Speaker 1: to gay people. It's amazing how often those people are

1337
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:57,799
Speaker 1: actually gay. What they're actually combating is their internal interest

1338
01:08:57,920 --> 01:09:00,680
Speaker 1: in the same sex, and so they are tacking it

1339
01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:04,160
Speaker 1: way over the top aggressive right. For me, I always

1340
01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:06,640
Speaker 1: even back at seventeen or eighteen years old, I grew

1341
01:09:06,720 --> 01:09:08,960
Speaker 1: up in Nashville. I didn't know any gay people really

1342
01:09:09,040 --> 01:09:11,040
Speaker 1: very much growing up, but we went away to college

1343
01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:13,240
Speaker 1: there was a lot of gw My first thought as

1344
01:09:13,280 --> 01:09:16,200
Speaker 1: an eighteen year old was I love gay dudes. That's

1345
01:09:16,240 --> 01:09:19,240
Speaker 1: a lot less competition for girls, Like I still don't

1346
01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:22,640
Speaker 1: understand why, guys, that isn't the number one reaction when

1347
01:09:22,640 --> 01:09:25,320
Speaker 1: you're an eighteen year old college kid and the campus

1348
01:09:25,360 --> 01:09:29,520
Speaker 1: is swarming with girls like GW had a huge gay population,

1349
01:09:29,920 --> 01:09:31,880
Speaker 1: and I was like, man, this is awesome for me.

1350
01:09:32,200 --> 01:09:34,280
Speaker 1: There's a lot better options that I'm gonna have because

1351
01:09:34,280 --> 01:09:36,519
Speaker 1: those good looking dudes are gay and they're not interested

1352
01:09:36,520 --> 01:09:39,000
Speaker 1: in girls at all. Right, Like, maybe that it's self interested,

1353
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:42,799
Speaker 1: but I don't care very much about what other people

1354
01:09:42,960 --> 01:09:45,320
Speaker 1: think or do. And I heard you say your libertarian

1355
01:09:45,360 --> 01:09:49,040
Speaker 1: bent earlier, like I want for like I believe in

1356
01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:51,559
Speaker 1: capitalism and I believe in free speech. And I obviously

1357
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:54,080
Speaker 1: got in trouble on CNN c ann perspective for saying

1358
01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:56,640
Speaker 1: I believe in the First Amendment, Boobs. I'm a heterosexual

1359
01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:59,600
Speaker 1: guy who likes most things that heterosexual guys like. But

1360
01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:01,880
Speaker 1: that does it mean that everybody has to be a

1361
01:10:01,880 --> 01:10:05,120
Speaker 1: heterosexual guy. But I also don't think we should apologize

1362
01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:07,720
Speaker 1: for our masculinity, which is a big part of I

1363
01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:11,080
Speaker 1: think several of your different stories, like we have feminized

1364
01:10:11,160 --> 01:10:13,400
Speaker 1: so many things that seems to be in this country

1365
01:10:13,439 --> 01:10:18,360
Speaker 1: that men are shrinking from the responsibilities of manhood. And

1366
01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:21,519
Speaker 1: you know, like having a disagreement is not a bad thing,

1367
01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:24,639
Speaker 1: right uh and and having a face taking along of it.

1368
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:27,479
Speaker 1: Losing is not like losing is not a bad thing.

1369
01:10:27,560 --> 01:10:30,400
Speaker 1: That's that's how you grow as an individual. In fact,

1370
01:10:30,439 --> 01:10:33,479
Speaker 1: I think I totally agree. There's lots of un fact

1371
01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:35,120
Speaker 1: with what you just said. Let me just see if

1372
01:10:35,120 --> 01:10:37,120
Speaker 1: I can remember a couple of them. First. I totally

1373
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:39,200
Speaker 1: agree that the people that seeing the loudest about their

1374
01:10:39,200 --> 01:10:43,160
Speaker 1: own virtues and cast the most accusations usually are hiding

1375
01:10:43,240 --> 01:10:45,800
Speaker 1: something big, bad, and ugly. I think most of the

1376
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:49,240
Speaker 1: people that yell racist at everybody else online make I

1377
01:10:49,240 --> 01:10:51,519
Speaker 1: would suspect because I have seen it in my private

1378
01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:56,960
Speaker 1: life some of the most racist Amen. Amen, yes, um.

1379
01:10:57,040 --> 01:11:00,479
Speaker 1: And it applies across the spectrum um every issue. I

1380
01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:03,080
Speaker 1: feel like the ones that preached the loudest and cast

1381
01:11:03,120 --> 01:11:09,480
Speaker 1: the biggest accusations are really talking about themselves in some way. Um,

1382
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:10,800
Speaker 1: what else did you talk about? I said I was

1383
01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:13,360
Speaker 1: going to remember, but I'm masculinity. I think you probably

1384
01:11:13,400 --> 01:11:16,519
Speaker 1: agree in many ways with Like I have three boys,

1385
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:20,479
Speaker 1: do you have four? To us by the way, I

1386
01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:22,800
Speaker 1: wish i'd had one more. I would keep going, I

1387
01:11:22,840 --> 01:11:24,840
Speaker 1: would have a fourth. My wife is tap has has

1388
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:26,559
Speaker 1: said that you can't, we can't have any more kids.

1389
01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:29,960
Speaker 1: But I've got three boys. I try to think about

1390
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:33,280
Speaker 1: the world in which I want to raise them. And

1391
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:36,000
Speaker 1: it's okay to be in touch with your emotions. I'm

1392
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:40,400
Speaker 1: fine with that, but when your emotions tip over into fear,

1393
01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:43,880
Speaker 1: I don't want to raise children who are afraid of

1394
01:11:43,920 --> 01:11:46,040
Speaker 1: the world. And I used that earlier as example. I

1395
01:11:46,040 --> 01:11:49,000
Speaker 1: said this today, I took my kindergartener to school. All

1396
01:11:49,080 --> 01:11:51,120
Speaker 1: my kids are gonna be going to in person school.

1397
01:11:51,479 --> 01:11:53,400
Speaker 1: I think it's important. I've talked to my kids about

1398
01:11:53,400 --> 01:11:57,679
Speaker 1: the coronavirus the same way eight percent of the times correct,

1399
01:11:57,800 --> 01:11:59,760
Speaker 1: as you said, But I've tried to talk to them

1400
01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:03,880
Speaker 1: as adults to understand that you can't allow fear to

1401
01:12:04,000 --> 01:12:06,280
Speaker 1: dictate all the choices that you make. And it seems

1402
01:12:06,320 --> 01:12:10,360
Speaker 1: to me that as a society, we are treating fear

1403
01:12:10,840 --> 01:12:14,599
Speaker 1: as if it is something to be avoided, as opposed

1404
01:12:14,680 --> 01:12:18,439
Speaker 1: to something that is to be accepted and understood as

1405
01:12:18,439 --> 01:12:21,559
Speaker 1: a part of adulthood, and that troubles me in many ways.

1406
01:12:21,600 --> 01:12:23,640
Speaker 1: And so I think about that from the parenting perspective.

1407
01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:25,760
Speaker 1: What am I trying to instill in my kids? We

1408
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:28,040
Speaker 1: talked about when you and I both went away to college,

1409
01:12:28,320 --> 01:12:31,439
Speaker 1: maybe we were a little bit uh soft, right, um?

1410
01:12:31,479 --> 01:12:34,000
Speaker 1: And I think the world creates a lot of soft people,

1411
01:12:34,360 --> 01:12:37,519
Speaker 1: and when hard times come, I'm not sure that soft

1412
01:12:37,560 --> 01:12:40,920
Speaker 1: people can cope. Does that make sense? Man? You are

1413
01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:44,280
Speaker 1: singing my song, Fear is winning the day in the world.

1414
01:12:44,400 --> 01:12:46,400
Speaker 1: I've been saying this on some of this media tour

1415
01:12:46,479 --> 01:12:48,800
Speaker 1: that I've been going through. I think corporate leadership is

1416
01:12:48,880 --> 01:12:52,160
Speaker 1: absolutely beholden to fear. Right now, you can go read

1417
01:12:52,200 --> 01:12:54,920
Speaker 1: my interview with Bobby Burrack at OutKick dot com see

1418
01:12:54,920 --> 01:12:56,439
Speaker 1: what I had to say about that. But I want

1419
01:12:56,479 --> 01:12:58,920
Speaker 1: to say something different about what you just said about

1420
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:02,800
Speaker 1: raising boys and racing fear. I have sat at the

1421
01:13:02,840 --> 01:13:05,720
Speaker 1: top of a cliff with my youngest son, who was

1422
01:13:05,760 --> 01:13:09,800
Speaker 1: a little more less of a daredevil than my oldest son,

1423
01:13:10,240 --> 01:13:12,519
Speaker 1: and said, we're going to jump. We're going to jump

1424
01:13:12,520 --> 01:13:16,240
Speaker 1: into this ocean. We're gonna take this jump. And he's afraid,

1425
01:13:16,360 --> 01:13:19,360
Speaker 1: and I said to him, fear is rational, Fear is fine.

1426
01:13:19,439 --> 01:13:22,719
Speaker 1: Don't be embarrassed about fear. Fear is absolutely part of life.

1427
01:13:22,720 --> 01:13:25,439
Speaker 1: The only question is what do you do with fear?

1428
01:13:25,880 --> 01:13:27,960
Speaker 1: Do you let it win? Do you let it dictate

1429
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:31,519
Speaker 1: your next action. You should feel fear. It's rational. It's

1430
01:13:31,560 --> 01:13:34,320
Speaker 1: telling you by the way that bear is big, I

1431
01:13:34,400 --> 01:13:37,599
Speaker 1: want to run. But if it's a black bear, you

1432
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:41,120
Speaker 1: should not run. You should stand tall, you should act big,

1433
01:13:41,160 --> 01:13:43,479
Speaker 1: you should be loud, you should back down the bear.

1434
01:13:44,040 --> 01:13:46,840
Speaker 1: The fear is okay, but what you do with the

1435
01:13:46,920 --> 01:13:50,280
Speaker 1: fear is what's important. I don't care much about skateboarding Clay,

1436
01:13:50,280 --> 01:13:52,360
Speaker 1: but I got both of my boys into skateboarding when

1437
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:54,479
Speaker 1: they were young, and I got him into it for

1438
01:13:54,520 --> 01:13:57,559
Speaker 1: that reason. I wanted him to learn to drop in,

1439
01:13:57,640 --> 01:14:01,120
Speaker 1: to crash on concrete, to over um their fear. I

1440
01:14:01,160 --> 01:14:03,720
Speaker 1: never wanted them to be protected from fear. I just

1441
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:07,320
Speaker 1: wanted to learn how to overcome fear. It's it's so

1442
01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:09,759
Speaker 1: well said, and I think that's honestly. What's so important

1443
01:14:09,760 --> 01:14:13,080
Speaker 1: about sports is because sports teaches you how to put

1444
01:14:13,200 --> 01:14:16,599
Speaker 1: everything you have into trying to win, regardless of how

1445
01:14:16,640 --> 01:14:20,000
Speaker 1: good you are, and sometimes you're still gonna fail, and

1446
01:14:20,240 --> 01:14:23,000
Speaker 1: understanding how to deal, which is why this podcast is

1447
01:14:23,040 --> 01:14:26,599
Speaker 1: called Wins and Losses understanding how to learn from your

1448
01:14:26,680 --> 01:14:30,720
Speaker 1: losses that ultimately you've gotta keep getting back up right,

1449
01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:32,840
Speaker 1: and everybody is going to get knocked down. And my

1450
01:14:32,960 --> 01:14:36,600
Speaker 1: concern is so many people now today are afraid of

1451
01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:39,200
Speaker 1: getting knocked down. They're not even getting knocked down will

1452
01:14:39,479 --> 01:14:42,479
Speaker 1: They're afraid of getting knocked down, and so they never

1453
01:14:42,640 --> 01:14:47,200
Speaker 1: actually take any risk or actually experience any significant success

1454
01:14:47,240 --> 01:14:51,479
Speaker 1: because they're so worried about the possibility of getting knocked

1455
01:14:51,520 --> 01:14:55,120
Speaker 1: down that they don't do what they really should. And

1456
01:14:55,280 --> 01:14:58,240
Speaker 1: you've talked about challenges earlier and everything else, like we interviewed,

1457
01:14:58,280 --> 01:15:00,519
Speaker 1: I got to interview that the president a couple of

1458
01:15:00,560 --> 01:15:03,320
Speaker 1: days ago. I want to feel, yeah, I want to

1459
01:15:03,360 --> 01:15:05,839
Speaker 1: fill that that nervousness in the pit of my stomach

1460
01:15:06,439 --> 01:15:09,120
Speaker 1: a lot of times every year to find some new

1461
01:15:09,240 --> 01:15:11,840
Speaker 1: challenge to embrace, because if you're not doing that, you're

1462
01:15:11,840 --> 01:15:14,920
Speaker 1: not growing in any way. I totally agree, man, and

1463
01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:17,720
Speaker 1: raising boys is one of the most clarifying factors on this.

1464
01:15:17,920 --> 01:15:20,840
Speaker 1: I wanted them to not make the travel team from

1465
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:23,439
Speaker 1: time to time. I wanted them to not get off

1466
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:27,120
Speaker 1: the bench and realize that that stinks. Okay, what are

1467
01:15:27,120 --> 01:15:29,519
Speaker 1: we gonna do to to fix that issue? I'm not

1468
01:15:29,560 --> 01:15:31,439
Speaker 1: going to go to the coach and telling you should

1469
01:15:31,439 --> 01:15:34,760
Speaker 1: be playing. What are you gonna do to fix that situation.

1470
01:15:34,880 --> 01:15:37,400
Speaker 1: You've got to deal with failures, You've gotta deal with loss.

1471
01:15:37,479 --> 01:15:40,679
Speaker 1: You could give your kids if you could adopt one

1472
01:15:40,760 --> 01:15:43,680
Speaker 1: trait for yourself in life, it would be resilience. My

1473
01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:47,080
Speaker 1: only pessimistic thought in response to that is, you know,

1474
01:15:47,120 --> 01:15:49,320
Speaker 1: I said it to you earlier in the show. I said,

1475
01:15:49,479 --> 01:15:51,800
Speaker 1: we're raising generations of people who are unprepared for the

1476
01:15:51,840 --> 01:15:54,679
Speaker 1: real world. All these safe spaces is protection from fair

1477
01:15:55,240 --> 01:15:58,120
Speaker 1: They're unprepared for the real world right now. And this

1478
01:15:58,240 --> 01:16:00,760
Speaker 1: is a pessimistic point of view. They are shaping the

1479
01:16:00,800 --> 01:16:03,519
Speaker 1: real world. The real world is not shaping them. They've

1480
01:16:03,560 --> 01:16:07,040
Speaker 1: imported the safe spaces from college into the corporate chain

1481
01:16:07,040 --> 01:16:10,519
Speaker 1: of America. They have turned the entire country into a

1482
01:16:10,560 --> 01:16:13,960
Speaker 1: place where we will not withstand this agreement. We will

1483
01:16:13,960 --> 01:16:16,280
Speaker 1: not let you fail. We will not let anything negative

1484
01:16:16,320 --> 01:16:18,760
Speaker 1: happen to you in your life. I don't think it's sustainable.

1485
01:16:18,840 --> 01:16:21,240
Speaker 1: I think they will ultimately fail, but make no mistake.

1486
01:16:21,240 --> 01:16:23,360
Speaker 1: In the short term. Right now, I think they're winning

1487
01:16:23,360 --> 01:16:26,679
Speaker 1: the culture war well, and that's my biggest concern. Um

1488
01:16:26,760 --> 01:16:29,719
Speaker 1: and Frankly, I've said this before. I want to make

1489
01:16:29,880 --> 01:16:32,599
Speaker 1: you know, certainly, OutKick. The thing that I like is

1490
01:16:33,120 --> 01:16:35,240
Speaker 1: we have a voice in a big way I think

1491
01:16:35,280 --> 01:16:37,439
Speaker 1: without Kick, and you certainly have a big voice with

1492
01:16:37,479 --> 01:16:42,200
Speaker 1: Fox News. But imagine if Fox News didn't exist, Imagine

1493
01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:46,360
Speaker 1: if out Kick didn't exist. In sports media, what's scary

1494
01:16:46,439 --> 01:16:49,360
Speaker 1: to me is we don't really have a marketplace of

1495
01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:53,080
Speaker 1: ideas now. I love seeing Fox News rewarded for the

1496
01:16:53,120 --> 01:16:55,680
Speaker 1: marketplace that they share. And maybe you can argue if

1497
01:16:55,720 --> 01:16:58,160
Speaker 1: Fox News didn't exist, somebody else would come along and

1498
01:16:58,200 --> 01:17:00,960
Speaker 1: fill that vacuum. But I think the number of people

1499
01:17:00,960 --> 01:17:04,400
Speaker 1: who are like the Murdocks, that are willing to be

1500
01:17:04,560 --> 01:17:08,000
Speaker 1: involved in the marketplace of ideas and and and be

1501
01:17:08,120 --> 01:17:11,600
Speaker 1: willing to accept the side I right, like the society

1502
01:17:11,720 --> 01:17:14,719
Speaker 1: people who are gonna say like, oh, you know, that's

1503
01:17:14,800 --> 01:17:17,880
Speaker 1: uh that those are those uh, those rebel murdocks and stuff.

1504
01:17:18,280 --> 01:17:21,200
Speaker 1: I think that that is a rare thing, certainly in

1505
01:17:21,240 --> 01:17:24,800
Speaker 1: the media, and so I wonder I think, you know,

1506
01:17:24,880 --> 01:17:29,280
Speaker 1: in sports media there's almost no marketplace of ideas. That's

1507
01:17:29,280 --> 01:17:31,839
Speaker 1: what scares me, right, is that the marketplace of ideas

1508
01:17:31,880 --> 01:17:34,040
Speaker 1: is going to continue to constrict. I love what you

1509
01:17:34,080 --> 01:17:35,840
Speaker 1: said about all the different people who are, you know,

1510
01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:39,880
Speaker 1: kind of creating their own lane, so to speak. But

1511
01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:42,320
Speaker 1: that still is scary. And I'm glad that we're involved

1512
01:17:42,360 --> 01:17:44,280
Speaker 1: in the fight. But if I wasn't involved in the fight,

1513
01:17:44,320 --> 01:17:46,360
Speaker 1: I'd be sitting on the sidelines as a sports fan

1514
01:17:46,760 --> 01:17:48,920
Speaker 1: and as a as an as an American and somebody

1515
01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:51,760
Speaker 1: who's proud uh to to be a to be living

1516
01:17:51,760 --> 01:17:54,919
Speaker 1: in America, and feel like our entire lifestyle is under assault.

1517
01:17:56,360 --> 01:17:58,559
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. The culture war is not being

1518
01:17:58,600 --> 01:18:01,519
Speaker 1: lost to a massive ship in the majority opinion of

1519
01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:05,280
Speaker 1: the country. The decisions of corporate leaders are not being

1520
01:18:05,320 --> 01:18:08,920
Speaker 1: made because their consumer base has changed. The decisions by

1521
01:18:08,960 --> 01:18:12,719
Speaker 1: advertisers are not because their consumers are telling them place

1522
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:14,800
Speaker 1: your ads here or do not place your ads here.

1523
01:18:15,200 --> 01:18:19,040
Speaker 1: What is happening is a small, loud, extreme minority is

1524
01:18:19,080 --> 01:18:22,160
Speaker 1: scaring the hell out of everybody, and they don't have

1525
01:18:22,240 --> 01:18:26,000
Speaker 1: I guess, the spying to stand up to even protect

1526
01:18:26,040 --> 01:18:29,040
Speaker 1: their own bottom line, to protect their own shareholders, to

1527
01:18:29,080 --> 01:18:32,320
Speaker 1: protect their own ratings. I'm telling you, it is a

1528
01:18:32,360 --> 01:18:36,479
Speaker 1: suicidal agreement that they're making. These companies that make this

1529
01:18:36,640 --> 01:18:39,720
Speaker 1: bargain to give into the fear they will fail. It

1530
01:18:39,800 --> 01:18:43,160
Speaker 1: may take some time because glaciers melt slowly, but they

1531
01:18:43,200 --> 01:18:46,519
Speaker 1: will fail. And in the meantime, there is a massive

1532
01:18:46,760 --> 01:18:49,960
Speaker 1: market opening. And I think this applies to everything. Media

1533
01:18:50,080 --> 01:18:54,000
Speaker 1: choices like out Kicking, Fox News Present and both of

1534
01:18:54,040 --> 01:18:57,200
Speaker 1: whom success show there is a massive market for this.

1535
01:18:57,640 --> 01:18:59,640
Speaker 1: But also beyond that, there will have to be some

1536
01:18:59,760 --> 01:19:02,519
Speaker 1: edic factional choices. There will have to be some career

1537
01:19:02,560 --> 01:19:04,880
Speaker 1: path choices. Like I talked about earlier, with my kids,

1538
01:19:05,240 --> 01:19:07,360
Speaker 1: It's not gonna be that people are can continue to

1539
01:19:07,400 --> 01:19:11,000
Speaker 1: send their children off to these factories of indoctrinated thought.

1540
01:19:11,280 --> 01:19:13,280
Speaker 1: They're not going to say, go make a hundred fifty

1541
01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:16,479
Speaker 1: dollars working for this corporation that has told you you

1542
01:19:16,520 --> 01:19:19,680
Speaker 1: are born inherently evil and racist. They're not going to

1543
01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:24,400
Speaker 1: continue to do this. Media, sports, media, that's just the start.

1544
01:19:24,560 --> 01:19:27,320
Speaker 1: People are gonna have to make choices, and I do

1545
01:19:27,439 --> 01:19:30,320
Speaker 1: believe for the entrepreneurs and the business owners and the

1546
01:19:30,360 --> 01:19:35,120
Speaker 1: media personalities that choose to do so, they're walking into

1547
01:19:35,600 --> 01:19:38,960
Speaker 1: a massive market a majority opinion. Be sure to catch

1548
01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:42,200
Speaker 1: live editions about Kicked the coverage with Clay Travis weekdays

1549
01:19:42,240 --> 01:19:45,600
Speaker 1: at six am Eastern three am Pacific Man, this has

1550
01:19:45,600 --> 01:19:49,160
Speaker 1: been a fascinating conversation. Tell people again, I'm Clay Travis

1551
01:19:49,160 --> 01:19:51,439
Speaker 1: Wins and Losses with Will Caine. You can follow Will.

1552
01:19:51,520 --> 01:19:54,200
Speaker 1: I think it's just simple at Will Kine. But where

1553
01:19:54,200 --> 01:19:58,439
Speaker 1: can people watch you and starting win? I start this

1554
01:19:58,800 --> 01:20:02,200
Speaker 1: Saturday on Box and Friends Weekend with my friends Pete

1555
01:20:02,200 --> 01:20:05,519
Speaker 1: Hexeth and Jedediah Beela. You'll be six to ten Eastern

1556
01:20:05,640 --> 01:20:08,800
Speaker 1: every Saturday morning and Sunday morning on Fox News, and

1557
01:20:08,800 --> 01:20:11,400
Speaker 1: then as time allows. I am not walking away from sports.

1558
01:20:11,439 --> 01:20:14,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna stay involved in the sports world. I love sports.

1559
01:20:14,120 --> 01:20:15,559
Speaker 1: You couldn't keep me out of it if I want.

1560
01:20:15,880 --> 01:20:19,000
Speaker 1: I consider this a new opening door from my career,

1561
01:20:19,120 --> 01:20:21,680
Speaker 1: not closing any So I'd love it, man, I'd love

1562
01:20:21,680 --> 01:20:25,639
Speaker 1: it if your listeners, your readers, your fans, all um,

1563
01:20:25,640 --> 01:20:27,040
Speaker 1: come join us over and I hope you and I

1564
01:20:27,160 --> 01:20:29,120
Speaker 1: keep talking. Man, there's been a long time into making

1565
01:20:29,640 --> 01:20:32,400
Speaker 1: and um, and I appreciate what you guys are doing. No, look,

1566
01:20:32,439 --> 01:20:36,400
Speaker 1: I love to get you on the radio show regularly. Um.

1567
01:20:36,760 --> 01:20:39,280
Speaker 1: We need to talk about that offline at some point,

1568
01:20:39,360 --> 01:20:42,160
Speaker 1: but I think our listeners would love hearing from you

1569
01:20:42,240 --> 01:20:43,880
Speaker 1: on a regular basis. I think we'd have a lot

1570
01:20:43,920 --> 01:20:46,479
Speaker 1: of fascinating conversations, and I don't want you to leave

1571
01:20:46,560 --> 01:20:49,280
Speaker 1: completely the world of sports either. This has been awesome, man.

1572
01:20:49,360 --> 01:20:51,040
Speaker 1: I appreciate the time. I know how busy you are

1573
01:20:51,040 --> 01:20:53,320
Speaker 1: getting ready for that new show to launch. Encourage everybody

1574
01:20:53,320 --> 01:20:55,719
Speaker 1: to go watch it. Fox and Friends on the Weekend

1575
01:20:55,720 --> 01:20:58,000
Speaker 1: with Will Caine. Go follow him on Twitter telling me

1576
01:20:58,120 --> 01:21:00,200
Speaker 1: enjoyed the conversation and if you enjoyed this and go

1577
01:21:00,280 --> 01:21:02,920
Speaker 1: check out some of our other long form conversations. Thanks

1578
01:21:02,960 --> 01:21:04,800
Speaker 1: my man, I'm rooting for you. It's great to get

1579
01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:07,800
Speaker 1: to spend as much time talking as we just did. Thanks, Clay,

1580
01:21:07,880 --> 01:21:10,160
Speaker 1: keep up the good work, man, appreciate it. That's Will Kaine.

1581
01:21:10,160 --> 01:21:13,280
Speaker 1: I'm Clay Travis. This is Wins and Losses. Go subscribe

1582
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:17,440
Speaker 1: thirty whatever the number is. Long form conversations, hardly any commercials.

1583
01:21:17,600 --> 01:21:19,760
Speaker 1: You're gonna love it. Look forward to it. Thanks again

1584
01:21:19,760 --> 01:21:21,120
Speaker 1: to Will Kine, and thanks to you guys.