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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. It was the blustery, cold

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Speaker 1: winter night near Rochester when Detective Mark A. Liberatory arrives

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Speaker 1: to a scene. What he sees then he will never forget.

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Speaker 1: A beautiful, young twenty nine year old mom, Kathy Krausneck,

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Speaker 1: dead in her bed, an axe lodged in her head

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Speaker 1: in the last hours, A stunning, stunning turn of events.

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thanks for being

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Speaker 1: with us here at Fox Nation. In series XEM one eleven,

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Speaker 1: when the detective arrived at the scene, husband Jim Krassneck

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Speaker 1: tells cops he arrived home from work and found his

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Speaker 1: wife body. His three and a half year old little girl, Sarah,

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Speaker 1: was also home and unarmed. Minutes later, husband wanders over

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Speaker 1: to the neighbor's house, traumatized in shock with the baby girl,

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Speaker 1: Sarah in his arms. The neighbor immediately calls nine point

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Speaker 1: one after Jim says Kathy's dead. That was just the

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Speaker 1: beginning of a scenario that began to unfold that winter

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Speaker 1: night in the last hours. A suspect has been named,

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Speaker 1: but let's go back to the beginning.

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Speaker 2: When officers arrived at the neighbor's house They were ultimately

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Speaker 2: led to the home of James, his wife Kathleen, and

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Speaker 2: their daughter Sarah, who resided at thirty three Dell Reel Drive.

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Speaker 2: Officers arrived at the house to find Kathleen deceased. She

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Speaker 2: died from a single blow to her head from an axe.

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Speaker 3: Gary Printy was an investigator on the case since day one.

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Speaker 3: Printy says he'll never forget arriving to the scene that day.

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Speaker 4: It was not a pleasant scene. It was the first

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Speaker 4: one that I had ever seen this violence, and I

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Speaker 4: hope I never see another one. The police knocked on

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Speaker 4: our door after midnight. Firstly they said there's been a No,

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Speaker 4: they didn't call her murder. They've been there was a

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Speaker 4: homicide and that was Kathy.

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Speaker 1: Wow, you were hearing from our friends at WROC News A.

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Speaker 1: That was reporter Kela Green and others what happened to Kathleen.

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Speaker 1: Kathleen found in her bed with an axe embedded deeply

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Speaker 1: in her forehead. It sounds like the stuff that horror

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Speaker 1: movies are made of. You don't expect that in real life.

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Speaker 1: For this lovely wife and mother to be found with

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Speaker 1: an axe embedded in her four it it reminds you

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Speaker 1: of the horrible histories of nursing rhymes like how does

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Speaker 1: it go, doctor Bethany Marshall? Forty wax, Lizzie, how does

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Speaker 1: it go? Doctor Bethany? That's right?

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Speaker 5: And the Grim's fairy tales where children are shoved in ovens,

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Speaker 5: and all the horrible fairy tales that we heard growing up.

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Speaker 5: I do not remember the forty wax.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you know, doctor Bethany Marshall. As much as I

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Speaker 1: appreciate you and all your many, many many degrees and papers,

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Speaker 1: I had to go to Jackie Howard in the studio.

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Speaker 1: How does it go, Jackie? Lizzie?

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Speaker 6: What Bordon took an astgate?

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Speaker 5: Her mother?

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Speaker 7: Forty?

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Speaker 1: Okay? Thank you? See, I had to go to her

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Speaker 1: institutional memory of horror. I mean, Asie Grace, this is

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Speaker 1: crime stories. Thank you for being with us. My point

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Speaker 1: is it's almost too awful to take can with me

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Speaker 1: an all star paddle, and boy do I mean it

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Speaker 1: joining me. Cloyd Steiger thirty six years, SEATTLEPD, twenty two

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Speaker 1: years homicide, author of Seattle's Forgotten serial killer, Gary jen Grant.

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Speaker 1: You can find him at Cloydsteiger dot com. Kathleen Murphy,

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Speaker 1: she knows her way around to North Carolina courtroom and beyond.

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Speaker 1: Renowned psychoanalyst out of LA doctor Bethany Marshall at doctor

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Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall dot com, South Carolina medical examiner and author

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Speaker 1: of homicide investigation field Guide, And you may not agree

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Speaker 1: with me, but I gotta tell you that is quite

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Speaker 1: the read homicide investigation of field Guide. Doctor Michelle Dupree

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Speaker 1: joining me right now, reporter with The Democrat and Chronicle,

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Speaker 1: former co author of an upcoming book on this very

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Speaker 1: topic at krassneck dot com. Nancy Monahan, Nancy, Before I

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Speaker 1: go to you, I've got to go to doctor Michelle Dupree.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Michelle, an axe embedded in this woman's forehead and

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Speaker 1: she couldn't have been more defenseless. She apparently was asleep

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Speaker 1: in bed, Doctor Michelle. What, Doctor Michelle Dupree does an

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Speaker 1: act actually, at one blow with an axe to the skull,

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Speaker 1: I assume, depending on the velocity, would crack the skull

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Speaker 1: and go directly into the brain.

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Speaker 8: Yes. Absolutely, what a gruesome scene that must have been.

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Speaker 8: The act would have obviously fractured the skull and gone

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Speaker 8: deep into the actual surface of the brain, causing obviously

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Speaker 8: extensive damage and death.

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Speaker 1: How much force would it require to actually crack the skull?

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Speaker 1: For instance, I've seen cases where someone has been bludging

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Speaker 1: dead and the medical examiner would state, for instance, this

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Speaker 1: is the same velocity as you would get from a

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Speaker 1: car crash at sixty mph. What velocity would it take

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Speaker 1: with an act single blow to crack open the skull,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Michelle Dupree.

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Speaker 8: Because the acts is a sharp force instrument, it is

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Speaker 8: going to crack the skull with a little less force

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Speaker 8: than you might expect. However, our skulls are very thick,

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Speaker 8: and it would still require an extensive amount of force

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Speaker 8: to do that.

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Speaker 1: You know, when you say our skulls are very thick,

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Speaker 1: would you explain what you mean by that? Because every

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Speaker 1: time somebody feels a little lump or they have a

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Speaker 1: pimple or assist, they think they have brain cancer or

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Speaker 1: a tumor. But there is a very thick skull between

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Speaker 1: your skin and your brain. So how thick is the skull?

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Speaker 8: What, Nancy? The skull actually varies in thickness depending on

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Speaker 8: where we are talking about. So the location though of

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Speaker 8: this in this case is the forehead, and the forehead

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Speaker 8: is one of the thicker parts. Approximately a quarter of

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Speaker 8: an inch to three quarters of an inch thick in places.

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Speaker 1: And the skull is made of, of course bone. But

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Speaker 1: what do you compare the density of the skull to

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Speaker 1: Is it like a board, is it like cement? What's

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Speaker 1: the density?

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Speaker 8: Well, that's that interesting question. I've never really quite thought

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Speaker 8: about it. It's more than that's.

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Speaker 1: The first time I've thought about it. Doctor.

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Speaker 8: The density is certainly more like a board rather than

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Speaker 8: a concrete. It is not as hard as concrete would be.

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Speaker 8: And again, because the bone is somewhat poorous, it is

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Speaker 8: going to be less dense than that.

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Speaker 1: Guys, we are talking about a beautiful young woman, Kathleen

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Speaker 1: Kraussneck found bludgeon did well, I don't think bludgeon is

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Speaker 1: the right word. She was attacked with an axe, one

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Speaker 1: blow to the head. The weapon interesting found, wiped clean

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Speaker 1: of any fingerprints, and a window broken from the outside. Well,

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Speaker 1: there's another issue. Many times I've been asked, how do

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Speaker 1: you tell if AA's windows screen has been sliced from

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Speaker 1: the outside of the inside. You may not be able

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Speaker 1: to tell with the naked eye, but once you put

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Speaker 1: the screen under a microscope, you can actually see which

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Speaker 1: way the metal in the screen is bent. If it's

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Speaker 1: bent toward the inside of the room, it was slashed

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Speaker 1: from the outside. If it's bent, and you really do

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Speaker 1: have to look under a microscope to see this outward

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Speaker 1: toward the yard or the outside, then you know it

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Speaker 1: was staged and it was cut from the inside. Let's

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Speaker 1: go to our veteran reporter, Nancy Monahan, formerly with a

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Speaker 1: Democrat and Chronicle and co author on a book on

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Speaker 1: her murder. Nancy, thanks so much for being with us.

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Speaker 1: It's a real pleasure to have someone so close to

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Speaker 1: the case to explain a lot of the evidence to us.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about the severity of the attack. What can

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Speaker 1: you tell me about the attack on Kathleen Krassnek just

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Speaker 1: twenty nine years old.

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Speaker 9: It was one X blow to her left temple, and

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Speaker 9: how far that wound went. I think it was pretty significant,

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Speaker 9: and she was asleep, as most X murder victims are.

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Speaker 9: It's hard to chase down somebody with an ax, so

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Speaker 9: you wouldn't pick an axe if you had to chase

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Speaker 9: somebody down the street. I do want to mention that

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Speaker 9: the broken window was downstairs. It was the door from

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Speaker 9: the garage to the kitchen that was broken.

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Speaker 1: Hold on, hold on, let me digest what you just said.

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Speaker 1: So the broken window not in the.

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Speaker 9: Bedroom, It was downstairs. It was the door between the

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Speaker 9: garage into the kitchen.

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Speaker 1: So it's the door from the garage into the kitchen.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if that garage had a one of the

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Speaker 1: doors that you have to have a code to or

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Speaker 1: you have to have an access or it may have

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Speaker 1: even been left open.

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Speaker 9: It was open. There was no Yes, it was easy

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Speaker 9: to get access to the garage. The door to the

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Speaker 9: garage was locked.

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Speaker 1: And let me think, now, from the garage into the kitchen.

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Speaker 1: So do we know which side of the glass was on.

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Speaker 9: Yes, they determined that had been broken from the outside.

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Speaker 1: Do you think the person crawled through the door or

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Speaker 1: they just broke the door in order to get to

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Speaker 1: the door handle.

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Speaker 9: Just broke the window to get to the handle.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. In the last hours, a

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Speaker 1: bizarre turn of events in the investigation of the brutal

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Speaker 1: murder of twenty nine year old mom Kathy Krausnick. Dispatch

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Speaker 1: immediately sends first responders to the scene. Brighton Police Lieutenant

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Speaker 1: Bill Flood arrived. He sees Jim Krausnick moaning and crying

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Speaker 1: in shock. Jim Krausnick, a Kodak Company economists, had left

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Speaker 1: for work that morning at the usual time around six

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Speaker 1: thirty am. Stayed gone all day, as he normally did.

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Speaker 1: Kathy had planned to stay home and take care of

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Speaker 1: their little girl. Detective Bill Flood stated at the time

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Speaker 1: he could tell little Sarah had been left alone. It

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Speaker 1: was very obvious to the detective this child had dressed herself,

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Speaker 1: and the little girl was very confused about what had happened.

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Speaker 1: She kept saying she had seen a quote bad man

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Speaker 1: sleeping in mommy and Daddy's bed with an axe in

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Speaker 1: his head. When asked if the assailant was black or white,

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Speaker 1: she said he was quote many colors. But Detective Bill

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Speaker 1: Flood is convinced little three year old Sarah had not

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Speaker 1: seen a man in the bed at all, that it

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Speaker 1: was her own mother in bed covered in blood. The

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Speaker 1: murder in itself was hard to believe, but then you

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Speaker 1: add the overlay that the three year old daughter had

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Speaker 1: been left alone in the house with her murdered mother.

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Speaker 1: Who would do that? Joining me? Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina

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Speaker 1: family attorney Cloyd Stiger, doctor Bethany Marshall doctor Michelle Dupre

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Speaker 1: and Nancy Monahan. I'm very curious Cloyd Stiger how they

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Speaker 1: could tell she was asleep at the time she was attacked.

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Speaker 8: I would guess it was because the way the body

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Speaker 8: was laying in, the lack of any defensive wounds or

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Speaker 8: anything like that.

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Speaker 1: You know what's really interesting to me, so many facts

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Speaker 1: in details, Doctor Bethany Marshall. The axe was wiped clean.

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Speaker 1: Now that is a big red flag to me, because,

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Speaker 1: yes it's anecdotal, it's based on all the cases I've investigated, tried,

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Speaker 1: or covered. But typically random attackers do not take time

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Speaker 1: to stage the saint to clean up the weapon. They

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Speaker 1: leave the weapon in her skull, but they wipe it clean.

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Speaker 1: Or is the weapon still in her skull? Nancy Monahan,

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Speaker 1: Oh yes it was, Yes, it was wow. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: doctor bean A Marshall, who would think to wipe clean

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Speaker 1: the murder weapon?

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Speaker 5: Well, this tells me that this was not a crime

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Speaker 5: of opportunity, right. This is not somebody who's just broke

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Speaker 5: into the house to ransack and find jewelry or cash.

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Speaker 5: This is not somebody who just wanted to commit a

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Speaker 5: rape homicide. She wasn't sexually violated. So whoever did this

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Speaker 5: knew her, and I would want to know who had

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Speaker 5: she been in contact with. Did she have any admirers,

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Speaker 5: Was she having an affair? Was she being stalked? Was

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Speaker 5: there a person in the neighborhood who had taken a

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Speaker 5: special interest in her? The fact that somebody embedded an

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Speaker 5: axe in her forehead and then wiped up the evidence

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Speaker 5: means that this is somebody who had tremendous rage towards her,

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Speaker 5: And to me, that speaks of a crime of passion.

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Speaker 5: Whether it's espouse, a stalker, an ex boyfriend, but somebody

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Speaker 5: who took a very special interest in her and felt

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Speaker 5: that she had maybe jilted them or rejected them in

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Speaker 5: some way.

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Speaker 1: I'm also curious to Nancy Monahan, former reporter, Democrat and

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Speaker 1: Chronicle Nancy, was she sex assaulted or had anything been

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Speaker 1: stolen from the home?

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Speaker 8: No?

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Speaker 9: To both, she was not and nothing had been taken.

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine the shock it would bring on when

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Speaker 1: you come in and find your wife dead with the

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Speaker 1: acts still embedded in her head. Doctor Bethany Marshall, I

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Speaker 1: just keep saying, it doesn't even sound real. It sounds

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Speaker 1: like it's from a horror movie.

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Speaker 8: Right.

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Speaker 5: So you imagine her husband comes home around five pm. Right.

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Speaker 5: I imagine he was an executive. I think he had

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Speaker 5: a doctorate. He comes in, he sees his wife with

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Speaker 5: an axe embedded in her skull. I'm wondering, are there

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Speaker 5: any nine one one calls it? Has anyone spoken to

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Speaker 5: his demeanor when he called the police? Did he seem calm?

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Speaker 5: Did he seem agitated? I mean, I think that type

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Speaker 5: of behavioral evidence would be so important in beginning to

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Speaker 5: try to solve this crime, since in these sorts of crimes,

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Speaker 5: you always look to the spouse first. So I'm wondering,

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Speaker 5: what how did he behave after he found his wife

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Speaker 5: with the axe embedded in her skull? Are there any

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Speaker 5: detectives or policemen who were working working that particular crime

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Speaker 5: who spoke.

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Speaker 1: To that Well, You're absolutely right. In every homicide investigation,

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Speaker 1: the first place cops the detective's look is at the spouse,

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Speaker 1: the boyfriend, the ex the ex spouse, And as you

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Speaker 1: were pointing out, anybody in the neighborhood or at work

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Speaker 1: that had been paying special attention to her. Take a

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Speaker 1: listen to what her sister, Annette's lasser tells Wham thirteen.

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Speaker 10: James Krausnick told police he'd come home from his Kodak

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Speaker 10: job to find his twenty nine year old wife dead

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Speaker 10: with an axe embedded in her skull. The couple's three

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Speaker 10: and a half year old daughter had spent the day

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Speaker 10: alone in the home with her mother's corpse.

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Speaker 11: I've ever dropping to my knees in my dorm room.

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Speaker 11: I just couldn't believe it. She was my favorite sister

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Speaker 11: and my best friend.

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Speaker 1: To Nancy Monahan and former reporter Democrat and Chronicle and

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Speaker 1: who has also co authored a book on this murder.

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Speaker 1: Nancy question. The sister gets the call about the murderer,

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Speaker 1: and the three year old little girl was in her

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Speaker 1: crib all day with her mother dead.

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Speaker 9: She was not in her crib. She was in the

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Speaker 9: house all day long, wandering around. She had been in

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Speaker 9: the bedroom, saw her mother actually had a little blood

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Speaker 9: on her clothing, but didn't recognize that her as her mother,

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Speaker 9: And she was wandering around the house all day. By

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Speaker 9: the time her husband, Kathy's husband, came home, little Sarah

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Speaker 9: was back in her bedroom and she had tried to

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Speaker 9: dress herself. She had on two sweaters backwards.

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Speaker 1: You know what just that detail is so heartbreaking to

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Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer. To leave the three

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Speaker 1: year old little girl wandering around the house all day long,

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Speaker 1: she goes and finds her mom's body. Nancy Monthganue clarified

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Speaker 1: that because she actually had blood I think, she said,

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Speaker 1: on some of the little girl's clothing, so she had

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Speaker 1: made it to her mom and had come to try

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Speaker 1: to dress herself, putting on her sweaters backwards. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's the kind of thing a child never forgets. Kathleen Murphy, that.

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Speaker 7: Child will never forget that experience. And Nancy with that

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Speaker 7: child wandering around the house for the entire day, I

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Speaker 7: just wonder what.

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Speaker 9: Did she see?

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Speaker 7: And at three and a half years old, what has

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Speaker 7: she vocalized at that point to the police officers, Because

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Speaker 7: at that age she's old enough to tell somebody what

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Speaker 7: she saw and what she interviewed.

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Speaker 1: You know, I have a question to doctor Bethany Marshall,

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Speaker 1: what can you tell me about the brutality behind twenty

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Speaker 1: nine year old Kathleen's axe murder and what does that

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Speaker 1: tell you about her killer?

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Speaker 5: It tells me that the killer had a relationship with her,

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Speaker 5: And what I mean by that that was maybe in

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Speaker 5: love with her, had a preoccupation with her, was fascinated

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Speaker 5: by her, felt rejected by her. But whoever put this

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Speaker 5: axe in her skull was obsessed with his victim. You

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Speaker 5: don't kill somebody in that kind of an overkill, brutal

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Speaker 5: kind of way unless you have feelings, right, feelings of rejection,

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Speaker 5: rage and the hostility, feeling jilted in some way, and

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Speaker 5: unless those feelings have been brewing for some time. So

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Speaker 5: whoever did this knew her over months or even years, Nancy,

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Speaker 5: Because these feelings don't just crop up in five minutes.

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Speaker 5: You don't just break into a house start looking for

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Speaker 5: cash and jewelry. See a woman and oh I am

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Speaker 5: so enraged, I'm just going to put an axe in

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Speaker 5: her forehead. No, you are going to have a relationship

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Speaker 5: with that person. That's what the brutality tells me.

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Speaker 1: Nancy Monahan, for her reporter with Democrat and Chronicle, who

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Speaker 1: has sivily researched the murder, tell me about the brutality

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Speaker 1: of Kathleen's murder.

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Speaker 9: I've done a lot of research on axe murders and

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Speaker 9: and they are they are very personal. Uh, they are

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Speaker 9: always filled with rage and I mean it is a

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Speaker 9: statement well beyond any other weapon that someone someone can

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Speaker 9: use and all it takes, and then all it took

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Speaker 9: in this case was that one major blow that cracked

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Speaker 9: her skull open. Interestingly, there was no blood on the wall,

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Speaker 9: you know, it didn't spatter. There was certainly after the

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Speaker 9: you know, after the acts went in, the blood did

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Speaker 9: run down and there was a lot of blood on

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Speaker 9: her and the bed and that's that's what the young girl, Sarah,

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Speaker 9: the daughter saw.

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Speaker 1: Well we also know this there was premeditation because unless

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Speaker 1: they sleep with an axe by their bed, somebody, as

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Speaker 1: Jackie's pointing out, had to bring that axe upstairs. Not

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Speaker 1: only that the killer thought to wipe the ex clim

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace liberatorian partner Steve Hunt of

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Speaker 1: Brighton PD, they say the first investigators that the scene

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Speaker 1: found no real significant forensic clues like fingerprints or fibers.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty two, at the time of the murder,

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Speaker 1: DNA was not an investigative tool. But there was something

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Speaker 1: about that scene that really struck them. It looked as

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Speaker 1: if someone had been in the midst of a burglary

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Speaker 1: and stopped. There was a door leading into the house

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Speaker 1: that had a pane of glass broken. Outside, there was

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Speaker 1: a heavy axe called a mall m aul. It was

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Speaker 1: on the ground, leaning up against the wall, right beside

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Speaker 1: the window. The axe was at the door and the

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Speaker 1: one found lodged in Kathy's head both belonged to the

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Speaker 1: krows Necks. And in the dining room there were very

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Speaker 1: valuable items scattered everywhere, just strown. There was a tea

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Speaker 1: set on the floor, but oddly everything was standing straight up.

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Speaker 1: Did the perp plan to put it in a bag?

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Speaker 1: Because there was a black garbage bag next to the

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Speaker 1: silver tea set. A faint shoe print was there, as

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Speaker 1: if someone had stepped in it to hold the bag open.

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Speaker 1: But the single most important aspect of a burglary was missing.

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Speaker 1: Nothing had been taken. Did Kathy Krausneck come upon a burglar? Well,

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Speaker 1: in the last hours a suspect has been identified.

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Speaker 4: Oh, we found out for sure that he didn't never

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Speaker 4: pass his He got his doctors. Well, then I knew

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Speaker 4: them because he'd lied to hear that he had.

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Speaker 1: All the time you are hearing Robert Schlosser, Kathleen's father,

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Speaker 1: he's talking to the Rochester Democrat and chronicle to Nancy Monahan.

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Speaker 1: You know it may have been considered irrelevant at the time,

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Speaker 1: but I find it very relevant when you find out,

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Speaker 1: for all the time you have courted and been married,

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Speaker 1: your husband has been lying to you about earning his

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Speaker 1: pH d. What can you tell me, Nancy Monahan joining

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Speaker 1: me who has co authored a book on Kathleen Crossneck's murder. Nancy,

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Speaker 1: what did he claim he had his pH d in.

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Speaker 9: Economy? He was a PhD, said he was a PhD economist.

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Speaker 9: He had not, in fact earned his PhD, which was

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Speaker 9: one of the really striking issues in this whole affair.

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Speaker 9: He did, and he had finished his dissertation. He had

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Speaker 9: done all the coursework. All he had to do was

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Speaker 9: make a few changes in his dissertation, which he never did.

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Speaker 9: He lied to his co workers at Lynchburg. He got

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Speaker 9: the job at Kodak based on the fact that he

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Speaker 9: had the PhD or said he had the PhD, and

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Speaker 9: he never did. And even when Kodak was pressing him

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Speaker 9: to show proof that he had the PhD after he

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Speaker 9: had started working. This was a major issue in the

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Speaker 9: household and at Kodak because he was under pressure to

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Speaker 9: produce it. He kept saying that that it had been

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Speaker 9: there was some paperwork mix up at Colorado State where

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Speaker 9: he had attended and done all his work, and to

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Speaker 9: the end he claimed that he had the PhD. But

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Speaker 9: he didn't.

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Speaker 1: Very interested in his line about who he really is.

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Speaker 1: I'm really curious about what he claimed he wrote his

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Speaker 1: dissertation about, because I remember how hard my sister, who

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Speaker 1: went to the Wharton School and actually became a professor there,

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Speaker 1: how hard she worked getting her PhD. I mean it

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Speaker 1: is hard. I mean, technically speaking, Kathleen Murphy, we're juris

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Speaker 1: doctorates because he went through three years of law school.

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Speaker 1: But I don't think many lawyers had to write a dissertation.

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Speaker 1: It's very, very hard to do, Kathleen Murphy.

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Speaker 7: I couldn't imagine it except to say, Nancy that do

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Speaker 7: you remember studying for the bar and taking the bar

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Speaker 7: exam and knowing that if you didn't pass, you weren't

396
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Speaker 7: going to be that practicing lawyer. It's intense and it

397
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Speaker 7: is a.

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Speaker 1: Professional Kathleen Murphy. I can't. Maybe a block got it out,

399
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Speaker 1: but the bar either. I said, two or three days

400
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Speaker 1: you'd have to go back. You didn't finish it in

401
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Speaker 1: one day and it would take eight hours. And I

402
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Speaker 1: remember going in and I would not even get up

403
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Speaker 1: while we were taking the test to even go to

404
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Speaker 1: the bathroom because I did not literally want to miss

405
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Speaker 1: one minute that could risk not completing it or not

406
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Speaker 1: being able to go back over and check my answers.

407
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Speaker 1: And it was almost like I lost track of time

408
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Speaker 1: and space during the bar, I sat down and all

409
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Speaker 1: of a sudden, the day the eight hours were over,

410
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Speaker 1: and when I finished the bar Kathleen, it was being

411
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Speaker 1: held in Atlanta, and had to drive back to my

412
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Speaker 1: apartment in make And, which was about a two hour drive.

413
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Speaker 1: I got in the car and I had to get

414
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Speaker 1: out from behind the wheel. Somebody else had to drive,

415
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Speaker 1: and I had to lay down in the back seat

416
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Speaker 1: because it felt like the moment I had finished the

417
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Speaker 1: bar after whatever two or three days and sat down

418
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Speaker 1: in the car, it felt like somebody hit me in

419
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Speaker 1: the head with a cement brick. And I mean, I

420
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Speaker 1: had never felt anything like it in my life. I

421
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,679
Speaker 1: could hardly even see that's when it kicked in. But

422
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: I remember Kathleen going to get my ll M at NYU.

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Speaker 1: We had paper after paper after paper. But I guess

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Speaker 1: you could compare it to that to doctor Bethany Marshall,

425
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Speaker 1: psychoanalyst out of Beverly Hills. Doctor Bethany, why do people

426
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Speaker 1: lie about their credentials? I mean, he had a college degree.

427
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Speaker 1: He could have gone back and finished the dissertation, made

428
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Speaker 1: the change. He heard what Nancy Mona had said, but

429
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Speaker 1: he didn't. He chose to lie about it instead.

430
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Speaker 5: This guy falls into a very special category, and he's

431
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:37,200
Speaker 5: not alone. He's what we call ABD abd is all

432
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Speaker 5: the dissertation. There's a subject.

433
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Speaker 1: Wait wait wait wait, wait wait wait wait white wait,

434
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Speaker 1: I've never heard that before and a b D. I'm

435
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Speaker 1: writing it down. Oh but the dissertation, Okay, go ahead.

436
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 5: I actually treated a couple a number of years ago

437
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 5: where the husband claimed that he got his dissertation and

438
00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,400
Speaker 5: the wife found out and I.

439
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 7: Learned all of about this.

440
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 5: It's a group of people who go through all of

441
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 5: their training and for some reason, they do not want

442
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 5: to defend their dissertation. And by defend, defending a dissertation

443
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 5: means that you've already written, met, you already have your

444
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 5: committee of three people. Defending doesn't mean that you talk

445
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 5: about your dissertation. You have to sit down and listen

446
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 5: to your committee criticize and tear apart your dissertation, so

447
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 5: you have to hear what they have to say about

448
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 5: your body of work. But think about this, Nancy. So

449
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 5: if I think of my education, I have three years

450
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 5: of college, four years of graduate school, and in sixteen

451
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,360
Speaker 5: years of postgraduate in order to become a psychoanalyst. Imagine

452
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,439
Speaker 5: going through all of that and not being able to

453
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 5: sit down and hear what other people have to say

454
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 5: about your body of work. I mean, what I've seen

455
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 5: with people who are ABD is that they are very

456
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 5: avoidant individuals, and usually they are avoidant in every part

457
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 5: of their life. They do not want to be criticized,

458
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 5: They do not want people to look down on them.

459
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 5: Sometimes they have social anxiety. So if Crowdsneck falls into

460
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 5: this category, this is not the only thing he's lying

461
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 5: about in his life. There are probably many things that

462
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 5: he has not faced or been responsible about. And this

463
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 5: is not a man who can tolerate criticism. Because he

464
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 5: did not want to present his dissertation to his committee.

465
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 1: To Nancy Monahan, who has actually written a book about

466
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: this murder. Nancy, what was his undergrad degree? And I'm

467
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,640
Speaker 1: sure his wife, Kathleen Krassneck would have loved him if

468
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 1: he had said I'm working on my PhD. I don't

469
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: think that would have changed his family. Kodak would probably

470
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: have hired him anyway, knowing that he was working on

471
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: his dissertation. What was his undergrad degree in? If you know, Nancy, it.

472
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 9: Was some sort of a business degree. But you remember

473
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 9: Kathleen did not know this in the beginning. He went

474
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 9: right from Colorado State and his dissertation to his teaching

475
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 9: job at Lynchburg and was saying that he was working

476
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 9: on it. His colleagues they knew that he didn't have it,

477
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 9: and that he was supposedly working on it, just filing

478
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 9: the corrections. So it was a good while. In fact,

479
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 9: I believe it was after they moved to Rochester before

480
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 9: Kathleen found out that there was no degree, and it

481
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 9: was only a few months before her death.

482
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: You know, just very I wouldn't say obsessed, but I'm

483
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: fascinated with a desire to lie. And sometimes Doctor Bethany,

484
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: my children will come home and say so and so

485
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: Johnny said that his dad works for special ops and

486
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: this and that, and he has, you know, a treasure

487
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,719
Speaker 1: chest of gold coins, hid and blah blah, And I say, children,

488
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,959
Speaker 1: by wa wait, be nice to Johnny because not his

489
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: real name. Because I believe people boast and lie to

490
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: make themselves feel better about themselves, because they obviously have

491
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: some kind of insecurity. They can't just be who they are.

492
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: Why do people puff themselves up, for instance, on their resume,

493
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: not just to get a job, but in lives? Why

494
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: do you lie about it?

495
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 5: Why do people lie? For three different reasons. First, there's

496
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 5: the pathological liar. The pathological liar says whatever comes to

497
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 5: their mind to actually manipulate the people around them. They're

498
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 5: more callous, manipulative, and they kind of fall into this

499
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 5: category of puffery and they don't think they'll be caught

500
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 5: for their lives. The second category of lying is what

501
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 5: we call compulsive lying. Compulsive lying is when you when

502
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 5: you quickly say whatever comes to your mind in order

503
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 5: to please another person, Like if I had I saw

504
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 5: this couple where the wife would say that the husband

505
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 5: did you get the milk at the grocery store And

506
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 5: she's saying, hey, yeah, I got it, and she look

507
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 5: in the refrigerator there was no milk, and he wanted

508
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 5: to please her in that moment, not thinking that she

509
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 5: would catch him. We go back to the first category.

510
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 5: I think this guy was probably pretty sociopathic in different

511
00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 5: areas of his life, and probably lied extensively and had

512
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 5: this whole kind of an alter ego or personality that

513
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 5: he presented to the people around him, And a part

514
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 5: of it was a cover for the avoidance of not,

515
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 5: you know, finishing the dissertation. But I wouldn't be surprised

516
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 5: if he told other stories about himself too, more in

517
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 5: that manipulative kind of way. Just it's puffery, but it's

518
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 5: also manipulation. He's manipulating how people see him for his

519
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 5: own gratification.

520
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: The way that the murder of Kathy Krausnik unfolded her

521
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 1: body there in the home and acts literally in her head.

522
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: Her little girl, three year old Sarah, wandering around the

523
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: house in mismatched clothes alone with mommy's body sounds like

524
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: one of the most horrific TV made for movie crime

525
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: shows I've ever heard, But it's real. I find it

526
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 1: interesting and probative. It proves something that she was attacked

527
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: in her face, in her forehead. Of course, she had

528
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: to be a shrink to figure out what that means.

529
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: But I know this. Although her husband, James Krausnick, had

530
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: the higher paying job that he wanted, trouble was brewing.

531
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 1: His bosses at Kodak were asking him about his PhD.

532
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 1: He kept promising to give them evidence that he had

533
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: in fact gotten the degree. Pressure was mounting at work,

534
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 1: he became distant at home. Wife Kathy actually told her

535
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 1: friends he would come home from work angry. Police later

536
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: said it appeared he had been sleeping in the den.

537
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:37,479
Speaker 1: The marriage strained, Kathy had started talking about leaving and

538
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: taking Sarah home to Michigan. So many factors swirling around

539
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: the murder of Kathleen Krausnick, just twenty nine years old

540
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: at the time of her death, and then a twist

541
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: in the case.

542
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 10: Brighton Police renewed their efforts on the case four years

543
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 10: ago and listing help from the FBI. What led to

544
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 10: the arrest today has no been revealed, but Kathleen's sister

545
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 10: believes she knows the motive.

546
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 11: I believe, knowing my sister, she was all about education

547
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 11: that Jim did not actually pass his verbal dessertation, so

548
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 11: he did not earn his PhD, and he lied about it,

549
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 11: and he was calling himself doctor Krausnik. When she found out,

550
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 11: I am certain she confronted him on it, he snapped,

551
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 11: and I believe that's when he killed her.

552
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: You're hearing Kathleen's sister murder over a pH D. That's

553
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: a little far fast, you know. When people go that

554
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: far to almost get their PhD, to go through all

555
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: that education, you'd think they were well reasoned and wouldn't

556
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: commit a murder. But take a listen to this.

557
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 3: The trial of the husband accused in the Brighton axe

558
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 3: murder could hinge on what a nationally known doctor has

559
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 3: to say about one small but key detail. Doctor Michael

560
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 3: Baden is known as the celebrity pathologist.

561
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: The expert has.

562
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 3: Conducted over twenty thousand autopsies and investigated the assassinations of

563
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 3: President John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King Junior. Now

564
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 3: Brighton police say the timeline is crucial. Thirteen WRAM reports

565
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 3: that James Krausneck told authorities his wife and daughter were

566
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,280
Speaker 3: sleeping when he left for work at six thirty am.

567
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,800
Speaker 3: His wife died of a single blow to her head

568
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 3: with an axe. After an autopsy, the medical examiner ruled

569
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 3: the time of death was actually between two thirty and

570
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 3: nine thirty. Am plenty of time for her husband to

571
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 3: have completed the crime before he left for work. And

572
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 3: that's why Brighton police are bringing on doctor Baden to

573
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 3: confirm the timeline.

574
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 1: Wow, our friend's at w E N Why that was,

575
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:56,840
Speaker 1: Olivia Jadquith to Nancy Monahan, former reporter, Democrat and Chronicle. Nancy,

576
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: after all these years, why to police now bullied Kathleen's husband,

577
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 1: James is the killer? And what can you tell me

578
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:05,760
Speaker 1: about the evidence supporting their client?

579
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 9: Well, the time of death is clearly one of the

580
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:14,720
Speaker 9: big issues that they are pursuing. And whoever was speaking there,

581
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 9: it was correct that they've originally said it was between

582
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 9: two thirty and nine thirty. He left the house at

583
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 9: six thirty. And if they can narrow that time of

584
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 9: death to anything that's close to being before six thirty,

585
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 9: their case obviously is a whole lot stronger. That time

586
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,840
Speaker 9: of death has always been one of the key factors

587
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 9: in this case. And the other thing is there was

588
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 9: no DNA in nineteen eighty two when this happened. I

589
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 9: know that they have had said, sent several pieces of

590
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 9: evidence and did some DNA testing. However, it's really difficult

591
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 9: to understand what exactly they would if they found anything

592
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 9: on the DNA that would be useful now against mister Krausnak.

593
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 9: He lived there, his DNA was all over the house,

594
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 9: so that's uncertain. They're keeping the evidence quite close to

595
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 9: the best, but time of death is clearly a key one.

596
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: The case remained unsolved for decades, but the FBI's Cold

597
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,280
Speaker 1: Case Working Group took it back up in twenty sixteen

598
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: and carried out new forensic tests. Based on those forensic tests,

599
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,799
Speaker 1: detectives now point the finger at the husband who lied

600
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: about his PhD. No one else's DNA turned up in

601
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: the home. No rape, no theft, the axed wipe claim

602
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 1: that means the scene was stage. The grand jury and

603
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 1: silt in indictment against the husband, charging him with secondary

604
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: murder in the first of his four wives, Nancy Monahan,

605
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 1: who were these other women?

606
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 9: He married his second wife in Michigan. After this happened,

607
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 9: he took Sarah and went back to Michigan, and that

608
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 9: was in nineteen eighty two, and he married his second

609
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 9: wife in nineteen eighty six. They were only married a

610
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 9: very short time and a difficult situation and then he

611
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 9: married his third wife around late eighties or maybe nineteen ninety.

612
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 9: I don't have the date in front of me, but

613
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 9: we do know that they were married about five years.

614
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,359
Speaker 9: And now he's married to his fourth wife. They've been married, oh,

615
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 9: at least ten years or so, probably a little longer.

616
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 1: I can tell you this. The fact that the killer

617
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 1: managed to walk free for all these years, in my mind,

618
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 1: makes the case even worse. I don't understand the fact

619
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,720
Speaker 1: that there was no one else's DNA there. The scene

620
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: was stage. He leaves immediately after the murderer and refuses

621
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: to speak to police, then moves again. Did he ever,

622
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,359
Speaker 1: Nancy Monahan, submit to a polygraph or did he ever

623
00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,760
Speaker 1: sit down and talk to police? And where was the funeral?

624
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 9: Talked to police that evening that night, right after the discovery,

625
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 9: but his parents drove from Michigan overnight and he had

626
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 9: promised to come back to the police station the next morning.

627
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 9: He did not. He and Sarah went with the parents

628
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 9: and went up back to Michigan. He never had a polygraph,

629
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:22,399
Speaker 9: He was never interviewed by the police. He did hire

630
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 9: a lawyer, who, as defense lawyers do, do not allow

631
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 9: the police to talk to him without conditions. So no,

632
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 9: he never spoke to police until in twenty sixteen, an

633
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,800
Speaker 9: investigator from the Brighton Police Department did go to Gig

634
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,359
Speaker 9: Harbor in Washington where he was living then with an

635
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 9: FBI agent and they did speak to him then.

636
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 1: At that time, we also know that there were marital problems.

637
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: He was sleeping on the sofa. We also know that

638
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 1: he claimed he would let the daughter talk to police

639
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 1: and have an interview, but that never opened. While he

640
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: seemingly appeared to be cooperative, he never followed through and

641
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 1: left town. As it stands right now, the husband of

642
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: Kathy Krausneck murdered with an axe, convicted forty years after

643
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: her death Nancy.

644
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 6: Not long after, James Krassneck was convicted of killing his wife.

645
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 6: The convicted killer has died in prison. Krausneck died from

646
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 6: esophageal cancer while appealing his conviction.

647
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 1: Goodbye friend,