WEBVTT - Power in Publishing with Chris Jackson 0:00:15.396 --> 0:00:24.396 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:24.436 --> 0:00:28.076 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:28.556 --> 0:00:33.196 I'm Noah Feldman. Today's show is part of our mini 0:00:33.316 --> 0:00:39.156 series on Power in Media Broadly. Here to discuss power 0:00:39.316 --> 0:00:43.876 in publishing and the capacity of editorial voices in shaping 0:00:43.916 --> 0:00:48.436 the direction of the world is Chris Jackson. Chris is 0:00:48.436 --> 0:00:51.876 the publisher and editor in chief of the One World 0:00:51.996 --> 0:00:56.316 imprint of Random House. Chris and One World publish some 0:00:56.396 --> 0:01:00.756 of the best known writers in the world today, Tanahasi Coates, 0:01:01.116 --> 0:01:05.796 Brian Stevenson, Jay z Eddie Wong, to name just a 0:01:05.836 --> 0:01:09.156 few of the most prominent. Chris has already played a 0:01:09.676 --> 0:01:14.156 major role in shaping the American literary landscape, in particular 0:01:14.236 --> 0:01:17.956 bringing diverse voices and the voices of black writers into 0:01:18.036 --> 0:01:22.236 a range of national conversations. Just last year, he won 0:01:22.516 --> 0:01:26.436 the Center for Fiction's Medal for Editorial Excellence, which in 0:01:26.476 --> 0:01:30.996 the world of publishing is a very big deal. In short, 0:01:31.356 --> 0:01:33.716 there's nobody I can think of better than Chris to 0:01:33.756 --> 0:01:38.036 talk about how the power of publishing can be deployed 0:01:38.156 --> 0:01:43.316 to achieve very concrete and specific, real world goals. Chris, 0:01:43.356 --> 0:01:49.356 thank you so much. For joining us. I want to 0:01:49.396 --> 0:01:52.116 start with some of what is the day to day 0:01:52.156 --> 0:01:54.956 building blocks of your industry. But I think a lot 0:01:54.996 --> 0:01:56.716 of people don't know about and this is based on 0:01:56.756 --> 0:01:59.076 my own experience, which is that until I published a book, 0:01:59.276 --> 0:02:02.036 I basically understood nothing about who the various people were 0:02:02.076 --> 0:02:04.436 involved in publishing books. And that made me realize that 0:02:04.516 --> 0:02:07.396 a lot of people just don't know. So you're both 0:02:07.436 --> 0:02:11.196 publisher and editor in chief of One World, which is 0:02:11.396 --> 0:02:13.716 an imprint of Random House, Right, you have a huge 0:02:13.716 --> 0:02:15.916 amount of power in the world in which you operate. 0:02:16.756 --> 0:02:19.116 Could you explain just at a basic level, what does 0:02:19.116 --> 0:02:20.916 it mean on a day to day basis that you're 0:02:20.996 --> 0:02:24.916 both publisher and editor in chief of your imprint. So 0:02:24.996 --> 0:02:26.876 to be the publisher of the imprint means that I'm 0:02:26.876 --> 0:02:30.876 supposed to oversee everything that happens with the books, you know, 0:02:30.916 --> 0:02:32.716 the way we market them, the way we solve them, 0:02:32.756 --> 0:02:35.596 the way we design them. So that's the publisher role. 0:02:35.836 --> 0:02:40.076 I'm also responsible for the financial performance of the imprint 0:02:40.076 --> 0:02:42.796 within the larger company as the publisher. As the editor 0:02:42.796 --> 0:02:44.956 in chief, I'm the one who has to prove our 0:02:44.996 --> 0:02:48.436 acquisitions and and then I work with with our editors 0:02:48.436 --> 0:02:51.916 on developing the books, as well as editing and acquiring 0:02:51.916 --> 0:02:54.676 a number of them myself. So it's sort of an 0:02:54.756 --> 0:02:57.756 editorial hat and a business hat. It's it's a lot. 0:02:57.836 --> 0:02:59.836 It's a lot, but I wouldn't I wouldn't want to 0:02:59.876 --> 0:03:01.316 have one without the other. I mean, I think it's 0:03:01.316 --> 0:03:03.356 really important as an editor that I also get to 0:03:03.356 --> 0:03:06.396 see what's going on in terms of the overall publication 0:03:06.436 --> 0:03:08.156 of the book. I think it's important, you know, just 0:03:08.196 --> 0:03:09.676 as a person, as a human being. The reason I 0:03:09.716 --> 0:03:11.716 got into the industry in the first place was to 0:03:11.796 --> 0:03:14.276 work with writers and to help, you know, sort of 0:03:14.276 --> 0:03:16.796 collaborate with them on developing their ideas and stories. So 0:03:16.916 --> 0:03:20.876 that's really essential to my identity as a as a worker. 0:03:21.996 --> 0:03:25.276 I want to know about how the situation that you're 0:03:25.316 --> 0:03:28.756 in right now evolved in the following sense. So I 0:03:28.796 --> 0:03:30.876 know that One World was originally founded back in the 0:03:30.876 --> 0:03:35.316 early nineties with a focus not exclusively on African American writers. 0:03:36.036 --> 0:03:38.276 But when you became the publisher and editor in chief 0:03:38.276 --> 0:03:40.116 of it just a few years ago, I guess almost 0:03:40.156 --> 0:03:42.836 five years ago, it had sort of I wouldn't say 0:03:42.836 --> 0:03:45.196 it had disappeared, but it had kind of declined from 0:03:45.196 --> 0:03:49.676 prominence right now. Oh, it literally didn't exist. It had 0:03:49.716 --> 0:03:53.196 stopped existing yet. Okay, so you revived it, as it were. 0:03:53.516 --> 0:03:56.676 I brought it back to life. And so when you 0:03:56.796 --> 0:03:59.796 did that, I guess you already knew that some of 0:03:59.836 --> 0:04:02.996 the famous successful writers whom you worked with were going 0:04:03.036 --> 0:04:04.796 to come with you to that imprint or did you 0:04:04.876 --> 0:04:08.796 not know that at all? I suspected that they would 0:04:08.796 --> 0:04:10.556 come with me. I mean, I think the editor writer 0:04:10.596 --> 0:04:14.556 relationship can be really important and really intimate and not 0:04:14.596 --> 0:04:17.476 something that can be easily exchanged. I think, particularly with 0:04:17.476 --> 0:04:19.156 the writers that I worked with, because I felt like 0:04:19.196 --> 0:04:21.716 I was working with writers who with whom I shared 0:04:21.756 --> 0:04:23.476 a sense of mission, and I was trying to create 0:04:23.516 --> 0:04:26.996 a publishing house that was devoted to that mission, and 0:04:27.076 --> 0:04:30.276 it was happening all within the same larger corporate entities. 0:04:30.276 --> 0:04:33.716 So it wasn't that difficult to pull them over into 0:04:34.396 --> 0:04:35.716 my list. I don't think I would have done it 0:04:35.756 --> 0:04:37.916 if I didn't know that I could bring For instance, 0:04:37.916 --> 0:04:40.436 Sanahasey Coats, who had originally worked with at the previous 0:04:40.476 --> 0:04:42.156 imprint I had worked with, which is a place called 0:04:42.156 --> 0:04:44.556 Spiegel and Grau. You know, I knew he was gonna 0:04:44.796 --> 0:04:46.956 come with me, and he was someone who I thought 0:04:46.956 --> 0:04:48.836 was sort of foundational to what I wanted to do 0:04:49.316 --> 0:04:51.596 as an editor and as a publisher. Other writers like 0:04:51.636 --> 0:04:55.596 Brian Stevenson, Trevor Noah, I was pretty confident they would 0:04:55.596 --> 0:04:57.436 also come with me, some of the bigger names, to 0:04:57.436 --> 0:05:00.956 help build this new thing. How much have you thought, 0:05:01.436 --> 0:05:05.196 I'm already working with extremely prominent African American public intellectuals 0:05:05.276 --> 0:05:09.676 and writers, and if we group ourselves as a word 0:05:09.676 --> 0:05:13.956 together under a single imprint, that will have a kind 0:05:13.996 --> 0:05:17.516 of doubly empowering effect on their voices, right, And how 0:05:17.596 --> 0:05:19.876 much of you thought, well, it's just an efficiency question. 0:05:20.196 --> 0:05:22.196 You know, I'm already working on these with these folks, 0:05:22.276 --> 0:05:24.476 or in some cases, I'm hoping to work with these folks, 0:05:24.516 --> 0:05:26.436 and so why not do it under this framework where 0:05:26.436 --> 0:05:29.636 I'll have more control over the process. Yeah, I think 0:05:29.636 --> 0:05:32.796 it's it's probably some combination of those two things. I mean, 0:05:32.836 --> 0:05:34.276 one of the important things to know about one world, 0:05:34.476 --> 0:05:37.236 it's not just African American writers, right to me, the 0:05:37.276 --> 0:05:39.036 idea is that it was an imprint that was going 0:05:39.036 --> 0:05:41.636 to have writers that represent the country as it actually is, 0:05:41.756 --> 0:05:45.396 rather than the sort of very monocultural narrow way that 0:05:45.876 --> 0:05:49.396 typically publishing has worked, which has excluded much of the country, 0:05:49.476 --> 0:05:52.996 particularly as the country develops and evolves demographically, but also 0:05:53.036 --> 0:05:57.796 in terms of sensibility and ideologies. So I wanted to 0:05:57.796 --> 0:06:00.876 bring together a group of writers who I thought represented 0:06:00.956 --> 0:06:04.956 what I saw as an emerging America or ignored or 0:06:04.996 --> 0:06:08.276 occluded America, and bring them together in one place so 0:06:08.356 --> 0:06:11.356 that we could not just publish these individual voices, but 0:06:11.436 --> 0:06:13.516 that I could think about audiences in a different way 0:06:13.516 --> 0:06:15.916 and think about how do we find audiences that are 0:06:15.916 --> 0:06:17.516 interested in these books, so that I could go back 0:06:17.516 --> 0:06:19.156 to them and say, well, you love to this, you'll 0:06:19.156 --> 0:06:21.956 love this other book as well, And also create a 0:06:21.996 --> 0:06:24.596 support network of writers that the writers who work within 0:06:24.596 --> 0:06:27.516 the imprint, we find ways to connect them so they 0:06:27.516 --> 0:06:29.876 can do events together and they can support each other 0:06:29.916 --> 0:06:33.596 in various ways. Because there is a loose sort of 0:06:33.636 --> 0:06:36.716 mission to all these books, even though I think there's 0:06:36.916 --> 0:06:40.316 some heterogeneity in terms of how the writers represent that mission, 0:06:40.516 --> 0:06:43.076 and certainly they don't agree with each other on everything 0:06:43.116 --> 0:06:45.516 even remotely, and a lot of them are actually in 0:06:45.596 --> 0:06:48.876 fierce disagreement with each other over some things. But there 0:06:48.996 --> 0:06:51.076 is a sense that they're all pushing in more or 0:06:51.156 --> 0:06:53.356 less the same direction and want to be in dialogue 0:06:53.356 --> 0:06:55.676 with each other or in conversation with each other, even 0:06:55.716 --> 0:07:00.076 when that conversation includes some disagreement. So that's what I 0:07:00.116 --> 0:07:02.516 wanted to do. The idea of a publishing house has 0:07:02.516 --> 0:07:04.716 always been that it's a house. It's a place where 0:07:04.716 --> 0:07:07.756 a bunch of people will find their rooms, you know, 0:07:07.796 --> 0:07:10.196 but there's a sense of connection between them that they're 0:07:10.196 --> 0:07:14.916 all kind of after the same thing. I think, as 0:07:14.956 --> 0:07:18.716 an outsider or a semi outsider this industry, that you're 0:07:18.716 --> 0:07:22.956 doing something extremely original in conceiving a publishing house in 0:07:22.996 --> 0:07:25.396 that way, and conceiving the group of people with whom 0:07:25.436 --> 0:07:28.556 you work as in some ways mutually self supporting, even 0:07:28.636 --> 0:07:31.916 where they disagree with each other. I mean, maybe people 0:07:31.956 --> 0:07:35.236 talk that way maybe in the nineteen thirties, you know, 0:07:35.436 --> 0:07:37.516 or fifties, but I'm not even sure that they did. 0:07:37.556 --> 0:07:39.836 I mean, I think the way they used cultural capital 0:07:39.836 --> 0:07:41.756 at the time was more maybe they would see each 0:07:41.756 --> 0:07:44.516 other at cocktail parties, and you know, maybe they were 0:07:44.636 --> 0:07:47.476 very very loosely associated with certain editors, But I don't 0:07:47.516 --> 0:07:50.316 think that even in its glory days, knob for for 0:07:50.436 --> 0:07:54.356 our Strauss thought of its writers as a house in 0:07:54.396 --> 0:07:56.956 the sense that you're describing, you know, I think when 0:07:56.956 --> 0:07:58.476 they use the word house, I mean use them this 0:07:58.556 --> 0:08:01.516 wonderfully metaphoric, rich way of where the writers were, the 0:08:01.516 --> 0:08:03.676 people who lived in the house. But I think they 0:08:03.756 --> 0:08:06.596 meant it historically when they said house, they meant like 0:08:06.996 --> 0:08:09.956 the merchant banks that called themselves house. Yeah, now you're right, 0:08:10.436 --> 0:08:14.196 bit of business house, So I think I've been that's usable. 0:08:14.836 --> 0:08:16.796 But it's not just I mean, it's not just home here. 0:08:16.876 --> 0:08:21.876 It's also extremely innovative from a publishing industry perspective, because 0:08:21.916 --> 0:08:25.596 you're describing something much more collaborative and collective and mutually 0:08:25.636 --> 0:08:28.836 self reinforcing. And I'm wondering, first of all, am I 0:08:28.956 --> 0:08:31.756 right that what you're doing is really pretty radically new? 0:08:32.276 --> 0:08:34.996 And second, where'd you get the idea for it? Yeah? 0:08:35.036 --> 0:08:37.156 I'm not sure I would call it radically new. I 0:08:37.156 --> 0:08:39.276 think there is some version of this that happens in 0:08:39.276 --> 0:08:41.356 a lot of publishing companies. But when I first started 0:08:41.396 --> 0:08:44.716 in publishing, it was a long time ago, and one 0:08:44.756 --> 0:08:47.996 of the sort of publishing houses at the time was Vintage, 0:08:48.076 --> 0:08:50.436 which was being run by Sunni Meta, who would eventually 0:08:50.716 --> 0:08:53.356 run off Knap and was sort of a legend in 0:08:53.356 --> 0:08:55.476 the industry, eventually become a legend industry. And he had 0:08:55.476 --> 0:08:57.956 started this this this group of books, I think it 0:08:57.956 --> 0:09:01.636 was called Vintage Originals, and and in that list were 0:09:01.716 --> 0:09:03.876 a group of writers who in like the nineteen eighties. 0:09:03.876 --> 0:09:05.756 This is actually before I even got into publishing. It's 0:09:05.796 --> 0:09:07.916 like when I was becoming publishing aware, it was like 0:09:07.956 --> 0:09:11.156 in the nineteen eighties, there were they published writers, you know, 0:09:11.396 --> 0:09:14.636 like Jay mcinarry and um, you know, sort of these 0:09:14.676 --> 0:09:17.476 young New York writers in these paperback originals that all 0:09:17.516 --> 0:09:20.756 were kind of designed the same and all sort of 0:09:20.796 --> 0:09:24.956 presented a kind of common vision of what it meant 0:09:24.996 --> 0:09:29.876 to be, you know, young and you know, disilutioned, preemptively disillusioned, 0:09:29.916 --> 0:09:35.356 and probably coke adduled lines of coke in the downstairs 0:09:35.396 --> 0:09:38.596 bathroom at exactly. That was precisely that you're not what 0:09:38.636 --> 0:09:40.916 it was. But to me, what was interesting about it 0:09:40.956 --> 0:09:44.756 was that it did present almost like a coherent vision 0:09:44.876 --> 0:09:48.716 that in its little way because of the kind of critical, 0:09:48.756 --> 0:09:51.636 massive writers that kind of came through that same list, 0:09:51.676 --> 0:09:53.436 and that people could read one and they read another, 0:09:53.436 --> 0:09:56.036 and there was a sort of series association with the books. 0:09:56.356 --> 0:10:00.396 It did shift our sense of what American culture was 0:10:00.476 --> 0:10:02.156 at that time, for better or for worse. It wasn't 0:10:02.156 --> 0:10:04.836 even necessarily it may have been a trivial shift in 0:10:04.876 --> 0:10:08.196 some ways, but you could see how one writer might 0:10:08.236 --> 0:10:10.156 not be able to do that. At five or ten 0:10:10.196 --> 0:10:13.356 writers working in succession and in some loose association with 0:10:13.396 --> 0:10:15.276 each other could have that kind of effect. And that 0:10:15.316 --> 0:10:17.996 was really intriguing to me, because, you know, someone who 0:10:17.996 --> 0:10:20.676 had studied African American literature and been even from as 0:10:20.676 --> 0:10:23.396 a child, was like sort of obsessed with African American literature. 0:10:24.276 --> 0:10:26.556 You know, African American literature is a history of movements. 0:10:26.636 --> 0:10:30.676 It's the Harlem Renaissance. It's black feminist writers in the 0:10:30.756 --> 0:10:34.636 nineteen seventies, Tony Morrison and Alice Walker and Audrey Lord 0:10:34.636 --> 0:10:36.916 and people like that. It was the Black Arts movement 0:10:36.916 --> 0:10:39.156 in the nineteen sixties. We had poets like Mary Baraka 0:10:39.276 --> 0:10:43.716 and Sonya Sanchez and Larry Neil and so forth that 0:10:43.836 --> 0:10:46.636 represented that moment in time. And each one of those 0:10:46.716 --> 0:10:50.756 literary movements, you know, the sort of communist affiliated then 0:10:50.916 --> 0:10:54.516 broke away from communist group of writers like Ellison and 0:10:54.756 --> 0:10:57.596 Richard Wright. So you have these moments, and again it's 0:10:57.636 --> 0:11:00.996 because of the connections between the writers. They were able 0:11:01.036 --> 0:11:04.476 to not just represent themselves, but to power a shift 0:11:04.596 --> 0:11:08.356 in the culture that was essential, and that was always 0:11:08.436 --> 0:11:09.876 very exciting to me. I didn't want to just be 0:11:09.916 --> 0:11:12.756 an editor who opportunitistally published whatever happened to be solving 0:11:12.796 --> 0:11:14.676 at the moment. I want to think about how do 0:11:14.716 --> 0:11:17.996 you create a shift in culture? And I think you 0:11:17.996 --> 0:11:20.876 can only do that by having some kind of cohesion 0:11:20.916 --> 0:11:23.716 around what you're doing. So yeah, that's why I thought 0:11:23.756 --> 0:11:25.316 it was an important idea, and I think it also 0:11:25.316 --> 0:11:29.836 obviously has a business outcome as well, you know, because 0:11:29.836 --> 0:11:33.076 you're able to identify audiences and build them. I think 0:11:33.076 --> 0:11:37.796 someone like Tanahassi in some ways helped people identify an 0:11:37.836 --> 0:11:41.756 audience that was hungry for new ways of thinking about 0:11:41.876 --> 0:11:44.876 sort of this basic American problem of racism. And I 0:11:44.876 --> 0:11:46.916 think it was an interesting project to think about, well, 0:11:46.956 --> 0:11:48.956 how do we fill in more gaps in that story 0:11:49.356 --> 0:11:52.236 for that reader, and how do we expand beyond the 0:11:52.316 --> 0:11:54.276 core reader who we think of as being like maybe 0:11:54.276 --> 0:11:56.316 a black person or being someone who's like a leftist 0:11:56.716 --> 0:11:58.956 who cares about these things, and making it into something 0:11:58.996 --> 0:12:02.236 even bigger how do we kind of expand at wedge 0:12:02.276 --> 0:12:03.956 that we start from one writer with the next, and 0:12:03.996 --> 0:12:06.476 the next and the next, until you actually have a 0:12:06.516 --> 0:12:11.956 culture defining group of writers. That aspiration is really exciting 0:12:12.116 --> 0:12:15.276 and it is really wonderfully ambitious. I want to ask 0:12:15.276 --> 0:12:17.156 you about the nature of the movement that you think 0:12:17.316 --> 0:12:19.596 is emerging now when you compare it to some of 0:12:19.596 --> 0:12:22.796 those other historical presidents, and they're all fascinating in their 0:12:22.836 --> 0:12:27.516 own rights, how would you characterize the literary intellectual social 0:12:27.556 --> 0:12:30.756 movement that you're trying to catalyze right now? I agree 0:12:30.796 --> 0:12:33.596 that Tanahassi Coats is essential to it and central to 0:12:33.716 --> 0:12:36.436 its public intellectual face. But as you pointed out, some 0:12:36.516 --> 0:12:38.556 of the people in this circle don't agree with him 0:12:38.596 --> 0:12:41.636 on a bunch of concrete propositions. Right well, I think so. 0:12:41.676 --> 0:12:43.116 I think that's one of the things that's really interesting. 0:12:43.316 --> 0:12:46.036 I do think there is some friction and some disagreement 0:12:46.076 --> 0:12:48.396 that I think has been productive in some ways. I 0:12:48.396 --> 0:12:52.836 think then there's a kind of unproductive friction that exists 0:12:52.836 --> 0:12:55.796 from other directions. But going back to Tanahassi again is 0:12:55.836 --> 0:12:57.276 being like sort of in some ways a model. And 0:12:57.396 --> 0:12:59.796 you know, even before Tanahasi network with Brian Stevenson, you 0:12:59.836 --> 0:13:03.956 know who's this lawyer Death Penalty, primarily lawyer who runs 0:13:03.956 --> 0:13:07.076 an organization called Eji in Alabama. And I did a 0:13:07.036 --> 0:13:10.156 book called Just Mercy with Brian, and I would say 0:13:10.156 --> 0:13:13.196 those two were probably like definitive to me of what's 0:13:13.396 --> 0:13:16.596 transpired since then, not just in publishing, but in I 0:13:16.636 --> 0:13:18.876 think a kind of reckoning that's happening in a larger 0:13:18.876 --> 0:13:21.036 way in this country. And I think what both of 0:13:21.036 --> 0:13:24.316 those books did, meaning Just Mercy and Between the World 0:13:24.356 --> 0:13:28.396 and Me, is that they combined kind of personal narrative 0:13:28.796 --> 0:13:34.316 with some kind of contemporary storytelling and reportage with a 0:13:34.396 --> 0:13:39.836 deep dive into history and the sort of historical antecedents 0:13:39.956 --> 0:13:43.036 for events that were happening right before us here in 0:13:43.076 --> 0:13:45.876 the present. And I think that's the thing that's most 0:13:46.036 --> 0:13:49.596 definitive of this moment is unlike you know, you look 0:13:49.636 --> 0:13:52.036 at the Black Arts movement, where it was about declaring 0:13:52.156 --> 0:13:57.196 like certain revolutionary ideas about black identity right or in 0:13:57.356 --> 0:13:59.356 you know, the case of like the Audrey Lord, Tony 0:13:59.396 --> 0:14:02.436 Morris and Alice Walker moment, it was about exploring ideas 0:14:02.436 --> 0:14:05.476 of black feminism but also looking at politics in this 0:14:05.636 --> 0:14:09.716 more intersectional way. I think what this moment is about 0:14:09.876 --> 0:14:13.036 is really a historical reckoning, a way of going back 0:14:13.516 --> 0:14:19.436 into history to trace the structural and systemic, you know, 0:14:19.476 --> 0:14:23.236 decisions that were made through policy over history and how 0:14:23.276 --> 0:14:27.996 they've shaped the tragedies of our contemporary situation around race 0:14:28.036 --> 0:14:30.796 and racism. And I think that historical reckoning has been 0:14:31.436 --> 0:14:34.196 has been the great superpower I think of this generation 0:14:34.196 --> 0:14:36.356 of writers, which is why you saw, like last year, 0:14:36.396 --> 0:14:39.196 even with the protest movements, you know, how much it 0:14:39.276 --> 0:14:43.156 was about pulling down statutes and pulling down monuments and 0:14:43.716 --> 0:14:48.116 thinking about the persistence of the heroism of the Civil War, 0:14:48.356 --> 0:14:50.396 you know, generals who are who are put up on 0:14:50.396 --> 0:14:53.276 these pedestals or even the founding fathers, and really actually 0:14:53.316 --> 0:14:55.836 not just saying, Okay, this thing happened to this one 0:14:55.876 --> 0:14:58.316 man by the police, but thinking about what are the police? 0:14:58.836 --> 0:15:01.156 You know, what are the policy decisions that brought us here? 0:15:01.196 --> 0:15:04.036 What is our national identity? You know, like really going 0:15:04.116 --> 0:15:08.436 to the route while also being completely clear eyed about 0:15:08.476 --> 0:15:11.636 what's right and one of us. I think I think 0:15:11.676 --> 0:15:14.316 that's the thing that distinguishes this group of writers in 0:15:14.356 --> 0:15:17.996 this moment. I think that was an extraordinary description of 0:15:18.916 --> 0:15:22.356 some family shared characteristics and how they're driving a public conversation. 0:15:22.716 --> 0:15:25.356 I want to ask about a difference of nuance, let's say, 0:15:25.636 --> 0:15:29.756 between Brian's approach and Tanassi Coats's approach. So, you know, 0:15:29.796 --> 0:15:32.276 in my world, which is the world of law schools, 0:15:32.276 --> 0:15:34.596 Brian is he's a god. I mean, I was going 0:15:34.636 --> 0:15:36.076 to say something close to a god, but that's not 0:15:36.116 --> 0:15:39.116 actually true. He is just a god. He was a saint, 0:15:39.476 --> 0:15:40.836 you know when I when I first met him, when 0:15:40.836 --> 0:15:42.836 I was a baby law professor, and then he ascended 0:15:42.836 --> 0:15:47.076 to that status. And part of it is, for sure 0:15:47.636 --> 0:15:51.196 the depth of his capacity to engage with concrete stories, 0:15:51.196 --> 0:15:53.236 which is a great lawyer, to lee tactic and skill, 0:15:54.556 --> 0:15:57.756 and to take into account the historical background. But it's 0:15:57.796 --> 0:16:02.756 also true that his vision, broadly speaking, is one of 0:16:02.876 --> 0:16:07.116 faith and trust in the capacity of justice, not always 0:16:07.116 --> 0:16:09.276 in the real world institutions of justice, which he spent 0:16:09.316 --> 0:16:11.476 a lot of his time showing or broken, but in 0:16:11.476 --> 0:16:14.996 the capacity of justice as a concept to get us 0:16:14.996 --> 0:16:18.476 where we would like to go, and also in the 0:16:18.516 --> 0:16:22.316 possibility of using the tools of the justice system, even 0:16:22.396 --> 0:16:26.756 when the system is broken, to try to reshape and 0:16:26.916 --> 0:16:30.676 rebuild that set of institutions in a better way to 0:16:30.796 --> 0:16:33.276 make it work. Well, right, I'm not saying that Brian 0:16:33.276 --> 0:16:36.076 Stevenson doesn't have a critical line going through his thought. 0:16:36.076 --> 0:16:39.196 For sure, he does. But he also very self consciously 0:16:39.876 --> 0:16:43.196 has identified himself as a person who is you know, 0:16:43.316 --> 0:16:47.036 he is a profit of the possibilities of improvement, right, 0:16:47.276 --> 0:16:51.276 and say he literally, not just metaphorically, he literally saves 0:16:51.316 --> 0:16:53.756 the lives of people who are you know, actually innocent 0:16:53.876 --> 0:16:58.836 or whom the system has condemned wrongfully and it works sometimes, yeah, 0:16:59.076 --> 0:17:01.876 you know, And that's central to why that book is 0:17:01.916 --> 0:17:04.676 so great, But it's also central to why his career 0:17:04.796 --> 0:17:10.036 is so powerful. Yeah. In contrast, Tanahaso, as a kind 0:17:10.036 --> 0:17:15.756 of self identified writer's writer and intellectual, often says, and 0:17:15.916 --> 0:17:17.636 I think I've even heard some conversations where you and 0:17:17.636 --> 0:17:20.236 he had talked about this, that he doesn't think his 0:17:20.356 --> 0:17:24.596 job really is to make it better, to provide solutions. 0:17:24.676 --> 0:17:26.556 His job is to tell you what it is, to 0:17:26.556 --> 0:17:29.756 tell it like it is, and to lay out the truth. 0:17:30.356 --> 0:17:33.596 And some of his critics, I think, some degree unfairly 0:17:33.996 --> 0:17:36.316 have tried to put him into the box of people 0:17:36.316 --> 0:17:38.796 who think it's just so broken it can't be fixed. 0:17:39.196 --> 0:17:41.036 And I don't think he ever goes quite that far, 0:17:41.516 --> 0:17:44.036 but he does have a powerful intellectual capacity to be 0:17:44.076 --> 0:17:48.556 skeptical of fixes that other people put forward. Let's say, So, 0:17:48.636 --> 0:17:52.636 I guess I'm wondering how you think about this nuance 0:17:52.676 --> 0:17:55.556 of difference between these two figures whom you're describing, I 0:17:55.556 --> 0:17:58.916 think correctly as as exemplary in this current intellectual movement, 0:17:58.916 --> 0:18:01.596 and both of whom are part of your movement. Yeah, 0:18:01.636 --> 0:18:04.156 so I think that's an interesting distinction. It's one that 0:18:04.196 --> 0:18:07.276 I think people make a lot about, particularly in that 0:18:07.356 --> 0:18:10.676 critique of name critique, but like that sort of observation 0:18:10.716 --> 0:18:14.716 about Tana Hassi, and I think it goes to one 0:18:14.756 --> 0:18:16.756 of these things I think has been a bad thing 0:18:16.756 --> 0:18:18.916 that's happened over this period of time, which is this 0:18:18.956 --> 0:18:22.316 conflation of because an idea is presented in the form 0:18:22.316 --> 0:18:23.876 of a book, that all books are trying to do 0:18:23.916 --> 0:18:26.756 the same thing. And I think that Brian clearly has 0:18:26.796 --> 0:18:30.116 a certain kind of mission, specific mission that he is 0:18:30.196 --> 0:18:32.516 engaged in, a specific project that he's engaged and I 0:18:32.556 --> 0:18:35.236 could think as both a lawyer and as a communicator 0:18:35.396 --> 0:18:38.196 and as a leader, and I think Tana Hassei has 0:18:38.196 --> 0:18:40.236 a has a different one. You know, it reminds me 0:18:40.356 --> 0:18:41.676 like the books. Some of the books that I love 0:18:41.716 --> 0:18:44.356 the most when I was growing up were books that 0:18:44.436 --> 0:18:49.236 were that you could characterize as quote unquote negative, whether 0:18:49.316 --> 0:18:55.516 it was you know, Joseph Heller or Selene or whatever 0:18:55.716 --> 0:18:58.476 like it was. These are people who were writing about 0:18:58.516 --> 0:19:01.476 the horrors of particular historical moment, and they were writing 0:19:01.476 --> 0:19:04.156 with black humor. They were writing with no attempt to 0:19:04.236 --> 0:19:07.316 solve a problem, but merely to name it and to 0:19:07.436 --> 0:19:11.156 observe it. And that was very powerful and useful. And 0:19:11.196 --> 0:19:14.556 sometimes a reader needs to be devastated. They don't necessarily 0:19:14.596 --> 0:19:18.356 need to be hopeful. Thinking of a reader is being 0:19:19.156 --> 0:19:21.916 human being that has lots of points of input and 0:19:21.956 --> 0:19:23.956 a life that goes on beyond the book. There. I 0:19:23.996 --> 0:19:27.236 think we should give people the credit for being able 0:19:27.276 --> 0:19:29.756 to read a work of tragedy. And I think that's 0:19:29.756 --> 0:19:32.996 what Tanahassie in some cases is doing as a writer, 0:19:33.116 --> 0:19:37.996 as a literary figure, as an advocate, not as a 0:19:38.036 --> 0:19:41.476 politician certainly, but as someone who is as a writer 0:19:41.596 --> 0:19:45.436 feels like his job is to mind his own mind 0:19:45.676 --> 0:19:49.276 and feelings and to convey it in as powerful way 0:19:49.316 --> 0:19:53.436 as possible. That said, Tanahasi's the most famous nonliterary piece 0:19:53.476 --> 0:19:56.676 probably is his essay on reparations. And if there is 0:19:56.716 --> 0:20:00.476 anything more hopeful than the idea of presenting a case 0:20:00.516 --> 0:20:02.956 to reparations, I don't know what it is. He was 0:20:02.996 --> 0:20:06.036 not saying this is a hopeless situation. He laid out 0:20:06.076 --> 0:20:11.236 the historical roots of whether it's lining, and all the 0:20:11.316 --> 0:20:15.156 things that have created a system of segregation and wealth 0:20:15.556 --> 0:20:19.796 depletion and exploitation, and he said, but here's a possible 0:20:19.916 --> 0:20:22.876 solution if we're willing to do it. And I think 0:20:23.556 --> 0:20:27.276 Brian in his way, offers the same kind of hard choice, 0:20:27.316 --> 0:20:32.876 which is we've created this system of mass incarceration, disproportionate punishment, 0:20:33.636 --> 0:20:36.116 but here is a solution if we're willing to take it. 0:20:36.196 --> 0:20:39.196 And I think Brian rightfully, you know, he comes out 0:20:39.236 --> 0:20:41.196 of a different tradition. He comes out of the civil 0:20:41.236 --> 0:20:45.276 rights tradition in the South, and it certainly intellectually he 0:20:45.276 --> 0:20:48.756 comes out of that tradition, and so his goal is 0:20:48.796 --> 0:20:53.916 to inspire with that sense of hope and possibility. But 0:20:53.956 --> 0:20:56.276 I think they're basically in some ways saying the same thing, 0:20:56.276 --> 0:20:59.716 which is that we've created a dire situation that has 0:20:59.756 --> 0:21:04.036 cost us enormously as a society, and there's a solution 0:21:04.076 --> 0:21:08.316 if we're willing to take it, and it's hard. Both 0:21:08.396 --> 0:21:12.196 fiction and fiction can be important parts of historical reckoning 0:21:12.756 --> 0:21:16.556 of the kind that you're describing. And certainly the other 0:21:17.116 --> 0:21:20.516 African American literary movements that you've described all had some 0:21:20.636 --> 0:21:26.436 components of powerful nonfiction writers, essayists, memoirists, and also fiction writers. Right, 0:21:26.556 --> 0:21:29.036 how do you think of the balance? I mean, many 0:21:29.076 --> 0:21:33.116 of the writers you publish are primarily nonfiction writers, although 0:21:33.156 --> 0:21:35.676 in some cases I mean Tonahasi published a novel that 0:21:35.716 --> 0:21:38.316