1 00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:24,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:24,436 --> 00:00:28,076 Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:28,556 --> 00:00:33,196 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. Today's show is part of our mini 4 00:00:33,316 --> 00:00:39,156 Speaker 1: series on Power in Media Broadly. Here to discuss power 5 00:00:39,316 --> 00:00:43,876 Speaker 1: in publishing and the capacity of editorial voices in shaping 6 00:00:43,916 --> 00:00:48,436 Speaker 1: the direction of the world is Chris Jackson. Chris is 7 00:00:48,436 --> 00:00:51,876 Speaker 1: the publisher and editor in chief of the One World 8 00:00:51,996 --> 00:00:56,316 Speaker 1: imprint of Random House. Chris and One World publish some 9 00:00:56,396 --> 00:01:00,756 Speaker 1: of the best known writers in the world today, Tanahasi Coates, 10 00:01:01,116 --> 00:01:05,796 Speaker 1: Brian Stevenson, Jay z Eddie Wong, to name just a 11 00:01:05,836 --> 00:01:09,156 Speaker 1: few of the most prominent. Chris has already played a 12 00:01:09,676 --> 00:01:14,156 Speaker 1: major role in shaping the American literary landscape, in particular 13 00:01:14,236 --> 00:01:17,956 Speaker 1: bringing diverse voices and the voices of black writers into 14 00:01:18,036 --> 00:01:22,236 Speaker 1: a range of national conversations. Just last year, he won 15 00:01:22,516 --> 00:01:26,436 Speaker 1: the Center for Fiction's Medal for Editorial Excellence, which in 16 00:01:26,476 --> 00:01:30,996 Speaker 1: the world of publishing is a very big deal. In short, 17 00:01:31,356 --> 00:01:33,716 Speaker 1: there's nobody I can think of better than Chris to 18 00:01:33,756 --> 00:01:38,036 Speaker 1: talk about how the power of publishing can be deployed 19 00:01:38,156 --> 00:01:43,316 Speaker 1: to achieve very concrete and specific, real world goals. Chris, 20 00:01:43,356 --> 00:01:49,356 Speaker 1: thank you so much. For joining us. I want to 21 00:01:49,396 --> 00:01:52,116 Speaker 1: start with some of what is the day to day 22 00:01:52,156 --> 00:01:54,956 Speaker 1: building blocks of your industry. But I think a lot 23 00:01:54,996 --> 00:01:56,716 Speaker 1: of people don't know about and this is based on 24 00:01:56,756 --> 00:01:59,076 Speaker 1: my own experience, which is that until I published a book, 25 00:01:59,276 --> 00:02:02,036 Speaker 1: I basically understood nothing about who the various people were 26 00:02:02,076 --> 00:02:04,436 Speaker 1: involved in publishing books. And that made me realize that 27 00:02:04,516 --> 00:02:07,396 Speaker 1: a lot of people just don't know. So you're both 28 00:02:07,436 --> 00:02:11,196 Speaker 1: publisher and editor in chief of One World, which is 29 00:02:11,396 --> 00:02:13,716 Speaker 1: an imprint of Random House, Right, you have a huge 30 00:02:13,716 --> 00:02:15,916 Speaker 1: amount of power in the world in which you operate. 31 00:02:16,756 --> 00:02:19,116 Speaker 1: Could you explain just at a basic level, what does 32 00:02:19,116 --> 00:02:20,916 Speaker 1: it mean on a day to day basis that you're 33 00:02:20,996 --> 00:02:24,916 Speaker 1: both publisher and editor in chief of your imprint. So 34 00:02:24,996 --> 00:02:26,876 Speaker 1: to be the publisher of the imprint means that I'm 35 00:02:26,876 --> 00:02:30,876 Speaker 1: supposed to oversee everything that happens with the books, you know, 36 00:02:30,916 --> 00:02:32,716 Speaker 1: the way we market them, the way we solve them, 37 00:02:32,756 --> 00:02:35,596 Speaker 1: the way we design them. So that's the publisher role. 38 00:02:35,836 --> 00:02:40,076 Speaker 1: I'm also responsible for the financial performance of the imprint 39 00:02:40,076 --> 00:02:42,796 Speaker 1: within the larger company as the publisher. As the editor 40 00:02:42,796 --> 00:02:44,956 Speaker 1: in chief, I'm the one who has to prove our 41 00:02:44,996 --> 00:02:48,436 Speaker 1: acquisitions and and then I work with with our editors 42 00:02:48,436 --> 00:02:51,916 Speaker 1: on developing the books, as well as editing and acquiring 43 00:02:51,916 --> 00:02:54,676 Speaker 1: a number of them myself. So it's sort of an 44 00:02:54,756 --> 00:02:57,756 Speaker 1: editorial hat and a business hat. It's it's a lot. 45 00:02:57,836 --> 00:02:59,836 Speaker 1: It's a lot, but I wouldn't I wouldn't want to 46 00:02:59,876 --> 00:03:01,316 Speaker 1: have one without the other. I mean, I think it's 47 00:03:01,316 --> 00:03:03,356 Speaker 1: really important as an editor that I also get to 48 00:03:03,356 --> 00:03:06,396 Speaker 1: see what's going on in terms of the overall publication 49 00:03:06,436 --> 00:03:08,156 Speaker 1: of the book. I think it's important, you know, just 50 00:03:08,196 --> 00:03:09,676 Speaker 1: as a person, as a human being. The reason I 51 00:03:09,716 --> 00:03:11,716 Speaker 1: got into the industry in the first place was to 52 00:03:11,796 --> 00:03:14,276 Speaker 1: work with writers and to help, you know, sort of 53 00:03:14,276 --> 00:03:16,796 Speaker 1: collaborate with them on developing their ideas and stories. So 54 00:03:16,916 --> 00:03:20,876 Speaker 1: that's really essential to my identity as a as a worker. 55 00:03:21,996 --> 00:03:25,276 Speaker 1: I want to know about how the situation that you're 56 00:03:25,316 --> 00:03:28,756 Speaker 1: in right now evolved in the following sense. So I 57 00:03:28,796 --> 00:03:30,876 Speaker 1: know that One World was originally founded back in the 58 00:03:30,876 --> 00:03:35,316 Speaker 1: early nineties with a focus not exclusively on African American writers. 59 00:03:36,036 --> 00:03:38,276 Speaker 1: But when you became the publisher and editor in chief 60 00:03:38,276 --> 00:03:40,116 Speaker 1: of it just a few years ago, I guess almost 61 00:03:40,156 --> 00:03:42,836 Speaker 1: five years ago, it had sort of I wouldn't say 62 00:03:42,836 --> 00:03:45,196 Speaker 1: it had disappeared, but it had kind of declined from 63 00:03:45,196 --> 00:03:49,676 Speaker 1: prominence right now. Oh, it literally didn't exist. It had 64 00:03:49,716 --> 00:03:53,196 Speaker 1: stopped existing yet. Okay, so you revived it, as it were. 65 00:03:53,516 --> 00:03:56,676 Speaker 1: I brought it back to life. And so when you 66 00:03:56,796 --> 00:03:59,796 Speaker 1: did that, I guess you already knew that some of 67 00:03:59,836 --> 00:04:02,996 Speaker 1: the famous successful writers whom you worked with were going 68 00:04:03,036 --> 00:04:04,796 Speaker 1: to come with you to that imprint or did you 69 00:04:04,876 --> 00:04:08,796 Speaker 1: not know that at all? I suspected that they would 70 00:04:08,796 --> 00:04:10,556 Speaker 1: come with me. I mean, I think the editor writer 71 00:04:10,596 --> 00:04:14,556 Speaker 1: relationship can be really important and really intimate and not 72 00:04:14,596 --> 00:04:17,476 Speaker 1: something that can be easily exchanged. I think, particularly with 73 00:04:17,476 --> 00:04:19,156 Speaker 1: the writers that I worked with, because I felt like 74 00:04:19,196 --> 00:04:21,716 Speaker 1: I was working with writers who with whom I shared 75 00:04:21,756 --> 00:04:23,476 Speaker 1: a sense of mission, and I was trying to create 76 00:04:23,516 --> 00:04:26,996 Speaker 1: a publishing house that was devoted to that mission, and 77 00:04:27,076 --> 00:04:30,276 Speaker 1: it was happening all within the same larger corporate entities. 78 00:04:30,276 --> 00:04:33,716 Speaker 1: So it wasn't that difficult to pull them over into 79 00:04:34,396 --> 00:04:35,716 Speaker 1: my list. I don't think I would have done it 80 00:04:35,756 --> 00:04:37,916 Speaker 1: if I didn't know that I could bring For instance, 81 00:04:37,916 --> 00:04:40,436 Speaker 1: Sanahasey Coats, who had originally worked with at the previous 82 00:04:40,476 --> 00:04:42,156 Speaker 1: imprint I had worked with, which is a place called 83 00:04:42,156 --> 00:04:44,556 Speaker 1: Spiegel and Grau. You know, I knew he was gonna 84 00:04:44,796 --> 00:04:46,956 Speaker 1: come with me, and he was someone who I thought 85 00:04:46,956 --> 00:04:48,836 Speaker 1: was sort of foundational to what I wanted to do 86 00:04:49,316 --> 00:04:51,596 Speaker 1: as an editor and as a publisher. Other writers like 87 00:04:51,636 --> 00:04:55,596 Speaker 1: Brian Stevenson, Trevor Noah, I was pretty confident they would 88 00:04:55,596 --> 00:04:57,436 Speaker 1: also come with me, some of the bigger names, to 89 00:04:57,436 --> 00:05:00,956 Speaker 1: help build this new thing. How much have you thought, 90 00:05:01,436 --> 00:05:05,196 Speaker 1: I'm already working with extremely prominent African American public intellectuals 91 00:05:05,276 --> 00:05:09,676 Speaker 1: and writers, and if we group ourselves as a word 92 00:05:09,676 --> 00:05:13,956 Speaker 1: together under a single imprint, that will have a kind 93 00:05:13,996 --> 00:05:17,516 Speaker 1: of doubly empowering effect on their voices, right, And how 94 00:05:17,596 --> 00:05:19,876 Speaker 1: much of you thought, well, it's just an efficiency question. 95 00:05:20,196 --> 00:05:22,196 Speaker 1: You know, I'm already working on these with these folks, 96 00:05:22,276 --> 00:05:24,476 Speaker 1: or in some cases, I'm hoping to work with these folks, 97 00:05:24,516 --> 00:05:26,436 Speaker 1: and so why not do it under this framework where 98 00:05:26,436 --> 00:05:29,636 Speaker 1: I'll have more control over the process. Yeah, I think 99 00:05:29,636 --> 00:05:32,796 Speaker 1: it's it's probably some combination of those two things. I mean, 100 00:05:32,836 --> 00:05:34,276 Speaker 1: one of the important things to know about one world, 101 00:05:34,476 --> 00:05:37,236 Speaker 1: it's not just African American writers, right to me, the 102 00:05:37,276 --> 00:05:39,036 Speaker 1: idea is that it was an imprint that was going 103 00:05:39,036 --> 00:05:41,636 Speaker 1: to have writers that represent the country as it actually is, 104 00:05:41,756 --> 00:05:45,396 Speaker 1: rather than the sort of very monocultural narrow way that 105 00:05:45,876 --> 00:05:49,396 Speaker 1: typically publishing has worked, which has excluded much of the country, 106 00:05:49,476 --> 00:05:52,996 Speaker 1: particularly as the country develops and evolves demographically, but also 107 00:05:53,036 --> 00:05:57,796 Speaker 1: in terms of sensibility and ideologies. So I wanted to 108 00:05:57,796 --> 00:06:00,876 Speaker 1: bring together a group of writers who I thought represented 109 00:06:00,956 --> 00:06:04,956 Speaker 1: what I saw as an emerging America or ignored or 110 00:06:04,996 --> 00:06:08,276 Speaker 1: occluded America, and bring them together in one place so 111 00:06:08,356 --> 00:06:11,356 Speaker 1: that we could not just publish these individual voices, but 112 00:06:11,436 --> 00:06:13,516 Speaker 1: that I could think about audiences in a different way 113 00:06:13,516 --> 00:06:15,916 Speaker 1: and think about how do we find audiences that are 114 00:06:15,916 --> 00:06:17,516 Speaker 1: interested in these books, so that I could go back 115 00:06:17,516 --> 00:06:19,156 Speaker 1: to them and say, well, you love to this, you'll 116 00:06:19,156 --> 00:06:21,956 Speaker 1: love this other book as well, And also create a 117 00:06:21,996 --> 00:06:24,596 Speaker 1: support network of writers that the writers who work within 118 00:06:24,596 --> 00:06:27,516 Speaker 1: the imprint, we find ways to connect them so they 119 00:06:27,516 --> 00:06:29,876 Speaker 1: can do events together and they can support each other 120 00:06:29,916 --> 00:06:33,596 Speaker 1: in various ways. Because there is a loose sort of 121 00:06:33,636 --> 00:06:36,716 Speaker 1: mission to all these books, even though I think there's 122 00:06:36,916 --> 00:06:40,316 Speaker 1: some heterogeneity in terms of how the writers represent that mission, 123 00:06:40,516 --> 00:06:43,076 Speaker 1: and certainly they don't agree with each other on everything 124 00:06:43,116 --> 00:06:45,516 Speaker 1: even remotely, and a lot of them are actually in 125 00:06:45,596 --> 00:06:48,876 Speaker 1: fierce disagreement with each other over some things. But there 126 00:06:48,996 --> 00:06:51,076 Speaker 1: is a sense that they're all pushing in more or 127 00:06:51,156 --> 00:06:53,356 Speaker 1: less the same direction and want to be in dialogue 128 00:06:53,356 --> 00:06:55,676 Speaker 1: with each other or in conversation with each other, even 129 00:06:55,716 --> 00:07:00,076 Speaker 1: when that conversation includes some disagreement. So that's what I 130 00:07:00,116 --> 00:07:02,516 Speaker 1: wanted to do. The idea of a publishing house has 131 00:07:02,516 --> 00:07:04,716 Speaker 1: always been that it's a house. It's a place where 132 00:07:04,716 --> 00:07:07,756 Speaker 1: a bunch of people will find their rooms, you know, 133 00:07:07,796 --> 00:07:10,196 Speaker 1: but there's a sense of connection between them that they're 134 00:07:10,196 --> 00:07:14,916 Speaker 1: all kind of after the same thing. I think, as 135 00:07:14,956 --> 00:07:18,716 Speaker 1: an outsider or a semi outsider this industry, that you're 136 00:07:18,716 --> 00:07:22,956 Speaker 1: doing something extremely original in conceiving a publishing house in 137 00:07:22,996 --> 00:07:25,396 Speaker 1: that way, and conceiving the group of people with whom 138 00:07:25,436 --> 00:07:28,556 Speaker 1: you work as in some ways mutually self supporting, even 139 00:07:28,636 --> 00:07:31,916 Speaker 1: where they disagree with each other. I mean, maybe people 140 00:07:31,956 --> 00:07:35,236 Speaker 1: talk that way maybe in the nineteen thirties, you know, 141 00:07:35,436 --> 00:07:37,516 Speaker 1: or fifties, but I'm not even sure that they did. 142 00:07:37,556 --> 00:07:39,836 Speaker 1: I mean, I think the way they used cultural capital 143 00:07:39,836 --> 00:07:41,756 Speaker 1: at the time was more maybe they would see each 144 00:07:41,756 --> 00:07:44,516 Speaker 1: other at cocktail parties, and you know, maybe they were 145 00:07:44,636 --> 00:07:47,476 Speaker 1: very very loosely associated with certain editors, But I don't 146 00:07:47,516 --> 00:07:50,316 Speaker 1: think that even in its glory days, knob for for 147 00:07:50,436 --> 00:07:54,356 Speaker 1: our Strauss thought of its writers as a house in 148 00:07:54,396 --> 00:07:56,956 Speaker 1: the sense that you're describing, you know, I think when 149 00:07:56,956 --> 00:07:58,476 Speaker 1: they use the word house, I mean use them this 150 00:07:58,556 --> 00:08:01,516 Speaker 1: wonderfully metaphoric, rich way of where the writers were, the 151 00:08:01,516 --> 00:08:03,676 Speaker 1: people who lived in the house. But I think they 152 00:08:03,756 --> 00:08:06,596 Speaker 1: meant it historically when they said house, they meant like 153 00:08:06,996 --> 00:08:09,956 Speaker 1: the merchant banks that called themselves house. Yeah, now you're right, 154 00:08:10,436 --> 00:08:14,196 Speaker 1: bit of business house, So I think I've been that's usable. 155 00:08:14,836 --> 00:08:16,796 Speaker 1: But it's not just I mean, it's not just home here. 156 00:08:16,876 --> 00:08:21,876 Speaker 1: It's also extremely innovative from a publishing industry perspective, because 157 00:08:21,916 --> 00:08:25,596 Speaker 1: you're describing something much more collaborative and collective and mutually 158 00:08:25,636 --> 00:08:28,836 Speaker 1: self reinforcing. And I'm wondering, first of all, am I 159 00:08:28,956 --> 00:08:31,756 Speaker 1: right that what you're doing is really pretty radically new? 160 00:08:32,276 --> 00:08:34,996 Speaker 1: And second, where'd you get the idea for it? Yeah? 161 00:08:35,036 --> 00:08:37,156 Speaker 1: I'm not sure I would call it radically new. I 162 00:08:37,156 --> 00:08:39,276 Speaker 1: think there is some version of this that happens in 163 00:08:39,276 --> 00:08:41,356 Speaker 1: a lot of publishing companies. But when I first started 164 00:08:41,396 --> 00:08:44,716 Speaker 1: in publishing, it was a long time ago, and one 165 00:08:44,756 --> 00:08:47,996 Speaker 1: of the sort of publishing houses at the time was Vintage, 166 00:08:48,076 --> 00:08:50,436 Speaker 1: which was being run by Sunni Meta, who would eventually 167 00:08:50,716 --> 00:08:53,356 Speaker 1: run off Knap and was sort of a legend in 168 00:08:53,356 --> 00:08:55,476 Speaker 1: the industry, eventually become a legend industry. And he had 169 00:08:55,476 --> 00:08:57,956 Speaker 1: started this this this group of books, I think it 170 00:08:57,956 --> 00:09:01,636 Speaker 1: was called Vintage Originals, and and in that list were 171 00:09:01,716 --> 00:09:03,876 Speaker 1: a group of writers who in like the nineteen eighties. 172 00:09:03,876 --> 00:09:05,756 Speaker 1: This is actually before I even got into publishing. It's 173 00:09:05,796 --> 00:09:07,916 Speaker 1: like when I was becoming publishing aware, it was like 174 00:09:07,956 --> 00:09:11,156 Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties, there were they published writers, you know, 175 00:09:11,396 --> 00:09:14,636 Speaker 1: like Jay mcinarry and um, you know, sort of these 176 00:09:14,676 --> 00:09:17,476 Speaker 1: young New York writers in these paperback originals that all 177 00:09:17,516 --> 00:09:20,756 Speaker 1: were kind of designed the same and all sort of 178 00:09:20,796 --> 00:09:24,956 Speaker 1: presented a kind of common vision of what it meant 179 00:09:24,996 --> 00:09:29,876 Speaker 1: to be, you know, young and you know, disilutioned, preemptively disillusioned, 180 00:09:29,916 --> 00:09:35,356 Speaker 1: and probably coke adduled lines of coke in the downstairs 181 00:09:35,396 --> 00:09:38,596 Speaker 1: bathroom at exactly. That was precisely that you're not what 182 00:09:38,636 --> 00:09:40,916 Speaker 1: it was. But to me, what was interesting about it 183 00:09:40,956 --> 00:09:44,756 Speaker 1: was that it did present almost like a coherent vision 184 00:09:44,876 --> 00:09:48,716 Speaker 1: that in its little way because of the kind of critical, 185 00:09:48,756 --> 00:09:51,636 Speaker 1: massive writers that kind of came through that same list, 186 00:09:51,676 --> 00:09:53,436 Speaker 1: and that people could read one and they read another, 187 00:09:53,436 --> 00:09:56,036 Speaker 1: and there was a sort of series association with the books. 188 00:09:56,356 --> 00:10:00,396 Speaker 1: It did shift our sense of what American culture was 189 00:10:00,476 --> 00:10:02,156 Speaker 1: at that time, for better or for worse. It wasn't 190 00:10:02,156 --> 00:10:04,836 Speaker 1: even necessarily it may have been a trivial shift in 191 00:10:04,876 --> 00:10:08,196 Speaker 1: some ways, but you could see how one writer might 192 00:10:08,236 --> 00:10:10,156 Speaker 1: not be able to do that. At five or ten 193 00:10:10,196 --> 00:10:13,356 Speaker 1: writers working in succession and in some loose association with 194 00:10:13,396 --> 00:10:15,276 Speaker 1: each other could have that kind of effect. And that 195 00:10:15,316 --> 00:10:17,996 Speaker 1: was really intriguing to me, because, you know, someone who 196 00:10:17,996 --> 00:10:20,676 Speaker 1: had studied African American literature and been even from as 197 00:10:20,676 --> 00:10:23,396 Speaker 1: a child, was like sort of obsessed with African American literature. 198 00:10:24,276 --> 00:10:26,556 Speaker 1: You know, African American literature is a history of movements. 199 00:10:26,636 --> 00:10:30,676 Speaker 1: It's the Harlem Renaissance. It's black feminist writers in the 200 00:10:30,756 --> 00:10:34,636 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, Tony Morrison and Alice Walker and Audrey Lord 201 00:10:34,636 --> 00:10:36,916 Speaker 1: and people like that. It was the Black Arts movement 202 00:10:36,916 --> 00:10:39,156 Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties. We had poets like Mary Baraka 203 00:10:39,276 --> 00:10:43,716 Speaker 1: and Sonya Sanchez and Larry Neil and so forth that 204 00:10:43,836 --> 00:10:46,636 Speaker 1: represented that moment in time. And each one of those 205 00:10:46,716 --> 00:10:50,756 Speaker 1: literary movements, you know, the sort of communist affiliated then 206 00:10:50,916 --> 00:10:54,516 Speaker 1: broke away from communist group of writers like Ellison and 207 00:10:54,756 --> 00:10:57,596 Speaker 1: Richard Wright. So you have these moments, and again it's 208 00:10:57,636 --> 00:11:00,996 Speaker 1: because of the connections between the writers. They were able 209 00:11:01,036 --> 00:11:04,476 Speaker 1: to not just represent themselves, but to power a shift 210 00:11:04,596 --> 00:11:08,356 Speaker 1: in the culture that was essential, and that was always 211 00:11:08,436 --> 00:11:09,876 Speaker 1: very exciting to me. I didn't want to just be 212 00:11:09,916 --> 00:11:12,756 Speaker 1: an editor who opportunitistally published whatever happened to be solving 213 00:11:12,796 --> 00:11:14,676 Speaker 1: at the moment. I want to think about how do 214 00:11:14,716 --> 00:11:17,996 Speaker 1: you create a shift in culture? And I think you 215 00:11:17,996 --> 00:11:20,876 Speaker 1: can only do that by having some kind of cohesion 216 00:11:20,916 --> 00:11:23,716 Speaker 1: around what you're doing. So yeah, that's why I thought 217 00:11:23,756 --> 00:11:25,316 Speaker 1: it was an important idea, and I think it also 218 00:11:25,316 --> 00:11:29,836 Speaker 1: obviously has a business outcome as well, you know, because 219 00:11:29,836 --> 00:11:33,076 Speaker 1: you're able to identify audiences and build them. I think 220 00:11:33,076 --> 00:11:37,796 Speaker 1: someone like Tanahassi in some ways helped people identify an 221 00:11:37,836 --> 00:11:41,756 Speaker 1: audience that was hungry for new ways of thinking about 222 00:11:41,876 --> 00:11:44,876 Speaker 1: sort of this basic American problem of racism. And I 223 00:11:44,876 --> 00:11:46,916 Speaker 1: think it was an interesting project to think about, well, 224 00:11:46,956 --> 00:11:48,956 Speaker 1: how do we fill in more gaps in that story 225 00:11:49,356 --> 00:11:52,236 Speaker 1: for that reader, and how do we expand beyond the 226 00:11:52,316 --> 00:11:54,276 Speaker 1: core reader who we think of as being like maybe 227 00:11:54,276 --> 00:11:56,316 Speaker 1: a black person or being someone who's like a leftist 228 00:11:56,716 --> 00:11:58,956 Speaker 1: who cares about these things, and making it into something 229 00:11:58,996 --> 00:12:02,236 Speaker 1: even bigger how do we kind of expand at wedge 230 00:12:02,276 --> 00:12:03,956 Speaker 1: that we start from one writer with the next, and 231 00:12:03,996 --> 00:12:06,476 Speaker 1: the next and the next, until you actually have a 232 00:12:06,516 --> 00:12:11,956 Speaker 1: culture defining group of writers. That aspiration is really exciting 233 00:12:12,116 --> 00:12:15,276 Speaker 1: and it is really wonderfully ambitious. I want to ask 234 00:12:15,276 --> 00:12:17,156 Speaker 1: you about the nature of the movement that you think 235 00:12:17,316 --> 00:12:19,596 Speaker 1: is emerging now when you compare it to some of 236 00:12:19,596 --> 00:12:22,796 Speaker 1: those other historical presidents, and they're all fascinating in their 237 00:12:22,836 --> 00:12:27,516 Speaker 1: own rights, how would you characterize the literary intellectual social 238 00:12:27,556 --> 00:12:30,756 Speaker 1: movement that you're trying to catalyze right now? I agree 239 00:12:30,796 --> 00:12:33,596 Speaker 1: that Tanahassi Coats is essential to it and central to 240 00:12:33,716 --> 00:12:36,436 Speaker 1: its public intellectual face. But as you pointed out, some 241 00:12:36,516 --> 00:12:38,556 Speaker 1: of the people in this circle don't agree with him 242 00:12:38,596 --> 00:12:41,636 Speaker 1: on a bunch of concrete propositions. Right well, I think so. 243 00:12:41,676 --> 00:12:43,116 Speaker 1: I think that's one of the things that's really interesting. 244 00:12:43,316 --> 00:12:46,036 Speaker 1: I do think there is some friction and some disagreement 245 00:12:46,076 --> 00:12:48,396 Speaker 1: that I think has been productive in some ways. I 246 00:12:48,396 --> 00:12:52,836 Speaker 1: think then there's a kind of unproductive friction that exists 247 00:12:52,836 --> 00:12:55,796 Speaker 1: from other directions. But going back to Tanahassi again is 248 00:12:55,836 --> 00:12:57,276 Speaker 1: being like sort of in some ways a model. And 249 00:12:57,396 --> 00:12:59,796 Speaker 1: you know, even before Tanahasi network with Brian Stevenson, you 250 00:12:59,836 --> 00:13:03,956 Speaker 1: know who's this lawyer Death Penalty, primarily lawyer who runs 251 00:13:03,956 --> 00:13:07,076 Speaker 1: an organization called Eji in Alabama. And I did a 252 00:13:07,036 --> 00:13:10,156 Speaker 1: book called Just Mercy with Brian, and I would say 253 00:13:10,156 --> 00:13:13,196 Speaker 1: those two were probably like definitive to me of what's 254 00:13:13,396 --> 00:13:16,596 Speaker 1: transpired since then, not just in publishing, but in I 255 00:13:16,636 --> 00:13:18,876 Speaker 1: think a kind of reckoning that's happening in a larger 256 00:13:18,876 --> 00:13:21,036 Speaker 1: way in this country. And I think what both of 257 00:13:21,036 --> 00:13:24,316 Speaker 1: those books did, meaning Just Mercy and Between the World 258 00:13:24,356 --> 00:13:28,396 Speaker 1: and Me, is that they combined kind of personal narrative 259 00:13:28,796 --> 00:13:34,316 Speaker 1: with some kind of contemporary storytelling and reportage with a 260 00:13:34,396 --> 00:13:39,836 Speaker 1: deep dive into history and the sort of historical antecedents 261 00:13:39,956 --> 00:13:43,036 Speaker 1: for events that were happening right before us here in 262 00:13:43,076 --> 00:13:45,876 Speaker 1: the present. And I think that's the thing that's most 263 00:13:46,036 --> 00:13:49,596 Speaker 1: definitive of this moment is unlike you know, you look 264 00:13:49,636 --> 00:13:52,036 Speaker 1: at the Black Arts movement, where it was about declaring 265 00:13:52,156 --> 00:13:57,196 Speaker 1: like certain revolutionary ideas about black identity right or in 266 00:13:57,356 --> 00:13:59,356 Speaker 1: you know, the case of like the Audrey Lord, Tony 267 00:13:59,396 --> 00:14:02,436 Speaker 1: Morris and Alice Walker moment, it was about exploring ideas 268 00:14:02,436 --> 00:14:05,476 Speaker 1: of black feminism but also looking at politics in this 269 00:14:05,636 --> 00:14:09,716 Speaker 1: more intersectional way. I think what this moment is about 270 00:14:09,876 --> 00:14:13,036 Speaker 1: is really a historical reckoning, a way of going back 271 00:14:13,516 --> 00:14:19,436 Speaker 1: into history to trace the structural and systemic, you know, 272 00:14:19,476 --> 00:14:23,236 Speaker 1: decisions that were made through policy over history and how 273 00:14:23,276 --> 00:14:27,996 Speaker 1: they've shaped the tragedies of our contemporary situation around race 274 00:14:28,036 --> 00:14:30,796 Speaker 1: and racism. And I think that historical reckoning has been 275 00:14:31,436 --> 00:14:34,196 Speaker 1: has been the great superpower I think of this generation 276 00:14:34,196 --> 00:14:36,356 Speaker 1: of writers, which is why you saw, like last year, 277 00:14:36,396 --> 00:14:39,196 Speaker 1: even with the protest movements, you know, how much it 278 00:14:39,276 --> 00:14:43,156 Speaker 1: was about pulling down statutes and pulling down monuments and 279 00:14:43,716 --> 00:14:48,116 Speaker 1: thinking about the persistence of the heroism of the Civil War, 280 00:14:48,356 --> 00:14:50,396 Speaker 1: you know, generals who are who are put up on 281 00:14:50,396 --> 00:14:53,276 Speaker 1: these pedestals or even the founding fathers, and really actually 282 00:14:53,316 --> 00:14:55,836 Speaker 1: not just saying, Okay, this thing happened to this one 283 00:14:55,876 --> 00:14:58,316 Speaker 1: man by the police, but thinking about what are the police? 284 00:14:58,836 --> 00:15:01,156 Speaker 1: You know, what are the policy decisions that brought us here? 285 00:15:01,196 --> 00:15:04,036 Speaker 1: What is our national identity? You know, like really going 286 00:15:04,116 --> 00:15:08,436 Speaker 1: to the route while also being completely clear eyed about 287 00:15:08,476 --> 00:15:11,636 Speaker 1: what's right and one of us. I think I think 288 00:15:11,676 --> 00:15:14,316 Speaker 1: that's the thing that distinguishes this group of writers in 289 00:15:14,356 --> 00:15:17,996 Speaker 1: this moment. I think that was an extraordinary description of 290 00:15:18,916 --> 00:15:22,356 Speaker 1: some family shared characteristics and how they're driving a public conversation. 291 00:15:22,716 --> 00:15:25,356 Speaker 1: I want to ask about a difference of nuance, let's say, 292 00:15:25,636 --> 00:15:29,756 Speaker 1: between Brian's approach and Tanassi Coats's approach. So, you know, 293 00:15:29,796 --> 00:15:32,276 Speaker 1: in my world, which is the world of law schools, 294 00:15:32,276 --> 00:15:34,596 Speaker 1: Brian is he's a god. I mean, I was going 295 00:15:34,636 --> 00:15:36,076 Speaker 1: to say something close to a god, but that's not 296 00:15:36,116 --> 00:15:39,116 Speaker 1: actually true. He is just a god. He was a saint, 297 00:15:39,476 --> 00:15:40,836 Speaker 1: you know when I when I first met him, when 298 00:15:40,836 --> 00:15:42,836 Speaker 1: I was a baby law professor, and then he ascended 299 00:15:42,836 --> 00:15:47,076 Speaker 1: to that status. And part of it is, for sure 300 00:15:47,636 --> 00:15:51,196 Speaker 1: the depth of his capacity to engage with concrete stories, 301 00:15:51,196 --> 00:15:53,236 Speaker 1: which is a great lawyer, to lee tactic and skill, 302 00:15:54,556 --> 00:15:57,756 Speaker 1: and to take into account the historical background. But it's 303 00:15:57,796 --> 00:16:02,756 Speaker 1: also true that his vision, broadly speaking, is one of 304 00:16:02,876 --> 00:16:07,116 Speaker 1: faith and trust in the capacity of justice, not always 305 00:16:07,116 --> 00:16:09,276 Speaker 1: in the real world institutions of justice, which he spent 306 00:16:09,316 --> 00:16:11,476 Speaker 1: a lot of his time showing or broken, but in 307 00:16:11,476 --> 00:16:14,996 Speaker 1: the capacity of justice as a concept to get us 308 00:16:14,996 --> 00:16:18,476 Speaker 1: where we would like to go, and also in the 309 00:16:18,516 --> 00:16:22,316 Speaker 1: possibility of using the tools of the justice system, even 310 00:16:22,396 --> 00:16:26,756 Speaker 1: when the system is broken, to try to reshape and 311 00:16:26,916 --> 00:16:30,676 Speaker 1: rebuild that set of institutions in a better way to 312 00:16:30,796 --> 00:16:33,276 Speaker 1: make it work. Well, right, I'm not saying that Brian 313 00:16:33,276 --> 00:16:36,076 Speaker 1: Stevenson doesn't have a critical line going through his thought. 314 00:16:36,076 --> 00:16:39,196 Speaker 1: For sure, he does. But he also very self consciously 315 00:16:39,876 --> 00:16:43,196 Speaker 1: has identified himself as a person who is you know, 316 00:16:43,316 --> 00:16:47,036 Speaker 1: he is a profit of the possibilities of improvement, right, 317 00:16:47,276 --> 00:16:51,276 Speaker 1: and say he literally, not just metaphorically, he literally saves 318 00:16:51,316 --> 00:16:53,756 Speaker 1: the lives of people who are you know, actually innocent 319 00:16:53,876 --> 00:16:58,836 Speaker 1: or whom the system has condemned wrongfully and it works sometimes, yeah, 320 00:16:59,076 --> 00:17:01,876 Speaker 1: you know, And that's central to why that book is 321 00:17:01,916 --> 00:17:04,676 Speaker 1: so great, But it's also central to why his career 322 00:17:04,796 --> 00:17:10,036 Speaker 1: is so powerful. Yeah. In contrast, Tanahaso, as a kind 323 00:17:10,036 --> 00:17:15,756 Speaker 1: of self identified writer's writer and intellectual, often says, and 324 00:17:15,916 --> 00:17:17,636 Speaker 1: I think I've even heard some conversations where you and 325 00:17:17,636 --> 00:17:20,236 Speaker 1: he had talked about this, that he doesn't think his 326 00:17:20,356 --> 00:17:24,596 Speaker 1: job really is to make it better, to provide solutions. 327 00:17:24,676 --> 00:17:26,556 Speaker 1: His job is to tell you what it is, to 328 00:17:26,556 --> 00:17:29,756 Speaker 1: tell it like it is, and to lay out the truth. 329 00:17:30,356 --> 00:17:33,596 Speaker 1: And some of his critics, I think, some degree unfairly 330 00:17:33,996 --> 00:17:36,316 Speaker 1: have tried to put him into the box of people 331 00:17:36,316 --> 00:17:38,796 Speaker 1: who think it's just so broken it can't be fixed. 332 00:17:39,196 --> 00:17:41,036 Speaker 1: And I don't think he ever goes quite that far, 333 00:17:41,516 --> 00:17:44,036 Speaker 1: but he does have a powerful intellectual capacity to be 334 00:17:44,076 --> 00:17:48,556 Speaker 1: skeptical of fixes that other people put forward. Let's say, So, 335 00:17:48,636 --> 00:17:52,636 Speaker 1: I guess I'm wondering how you think about this nuance 336 00:17:52,676 --> 00:17:55,556 Speaker 1: of difference between these two figures whom you're describing, I 337 00:17:55,556 --> 00:17:58,916 Speaker 1: think correctly as as exemplary in this current intellectual movement, 338 00:17:58,916 --> 00:18:01,596 Speaker 1: and both of whom are part of your movement. Yeah, 339 00:18:01,636 --> 00:18:04,156 Speaker 1: so I think that's an interesting distinction. It's one that 340 00:18:04,196 --> 00:18:07,276 Speaker 1: I think people make a lot about, particularly in that 341 00:18:07,356 --> 00:18:10,676 Speaker 1: critique of name critique, but like that sort of observation 342 00:18:10,716 --> 00:18:14,716 Speaker 1: about Tana Hassi, and I think it goes to one 343 00:18:14,756 --> 00:18:16,756 Speaker 1: of these things I think has been a bad thing 344 00:18:16,756 --> 00:18:18,916 Speaker 1: that's happened over this period of time, which is this 345 00:18:18,956 --> 00:18:22,316 Speaker 1: conflation of because an idea is presented in the form 346 00:18:22,316 --> 00:18:23,876 Speaker 1: of a book, that all books are trying to do 347 00:18:23,916 --> 00:18:26,756 Speaker 1: the same thing. And I think that Brian clearly has 348 00:18:26,796 --> 00:18:30,116 Speaker 1: a certain kind of mission, specific mission that he is 349 00:18:30,196 --> 00:18:32,516 Speaker 1: engaged in, a specific project that he's engaged and I 350 00:18:32,556 --> 00:18:35,236 Speaker 1: could think as both a lawyer and as a communicator 351 00:18:35,396 --> 00:18:38,196 Speaker 1: and as a leader, and I think Tana Hassei has 352 00:18:38,196 --> 00:18:40,236 Speaker 1: a has a different one. You know, it reminds me 353 00:18:40,356 --> 00:18:41,676 Speaker 1: like the books. Some of the books that I love 354 00:18:41,716 --> 00:18:44,356 Speaker 1: the most when I was growing up were books that 355 00:18:44,436 --> 00:18:49,236 Speaker 1: were that you could characterize as quote unquote negative, whether 356 00:18:49,316 --> 00:18:55,516 Speaker 1: it was you know, Joseph Heller or Selene or whatever 357 00:18:55,716 --> 00:18:58,476 Speaker 1: like it was. These are people who were writing about 358 00:18:58,516 --> 00:19:01,476 Speaker 1: the horrors of particular historical moment, and they were writing 359 00:19:01,476 --> 00:19:04,156 Speaker 1: with black humor. They were writing with no attempt to 360 00:19:04,236 --> 00:19:07,316 Speaker 1: solve a problem, but merely to name it and to 361 00:19:07,436 --> 00:19:11,156 Speaker 1: observe it. And that was very powerful and useful. And 362 00:19:11,196 --> 00:19:14,556 Speaker 1: sometimes a reader needs to be devastated. They don't necessarily 363 00:19:14,596 --> 00:19:18,356 Speaker 1: need to be hopeful. Thinking of a reader is being 364 00:19:19,156 --> 00:19:21,916 Speaker 1: human being that has lots of points of input and 365 00:19:21,956 --> 00:19:23,956 Speaker 1: a life that goes on beyond the book. There. I 366 00:19:23,996 --> 00:19:27,236 Speaker 1: think we should give people the credit for being able 367 00:19:27,276 --> 00:19:29,756 Speaker 1: to read a work of tragedy. And I think that's 368 00:19:29,756 --> 00:19:32,996 Speaker 1: what Tanahassie in some cases is doing as a writer, 369 00:19:33,116 --> 00:19:37,996 Speaker 1: as a literary figure, as an advocate, not as a 370 00:19:38,036 --> 00:19:41,476 Speaker 1: politician certainly, but as someone who is as a writer 371 00:19:41,596 --> 00:19:45,436 Speaker 1: feels like his job is to mind his own mind 372 00:19:45,676 --> 00:19:49,276 Speaker 1: and feelings and to convey it in as powerful way 373 00:19:49,316 --> 00:19:53,436 Speaker 1: as possible. That said, Tanahasi's the most famous nonliterary piece 374 00:19:53,476 --> 00:19:56,676 Speaker 1: probably is his essay on reparations. And if there is 375 00:19:56,716 --> 00:20:00,476 Speaker 1: anything more hopeful than the idea of presenting a case 376 00:20:00,516 --> 00:20:02,956 Speaker 1: to reparations, I don't know what it is. He was 377 00:20:02,996 --> 00:20:06,036 Speaker 1: not saying this is a hopeless situation. He laid out 378 00:20:06,076 --> 00:20:11,236 Speaker 1: the historical roots of whether it's lining, and all the 379 00:20:11,316 --> 00:20:15,156 Speaker 1: things that have created a system of segregation and wealth 380 00:20:15,556 --> 00:20:19,796 Speaker 1: depletion and exploitation, and he said, but here's a possible 381 00:20:19,916 --> 00:20:22,876 Speaker 1: solution if we're willing to do it. And I think 382 00:20:23,556 --> 00:20:27,276 Speaker 1: Brian in his way, offers the same kind of hard choice, 383 00:20:27,316 --> 00:20:32,876 Speaker 1: which is we've created this system of mass incarceration, disproportionate punishment, 384 00:20:33,636 --> 00:20:36,116 Speaker 1: but here is a solution if we're willing to take it. 385 00:20:36,196 --> 00:20:39,196 Speaker 1: And I think Brian rightfully, you know, he comes out 386 00:20:39,236 --> 00:20:41,196 Speaker 1: of a different tradition. He comes out of the civil 387 00:20:41,236 --> 00:20:45,276 Speaker 1: rights tradition in the South, and it certainly intellectually he 388 00:20:45,276 --> 00:20:48,756 Speaker 1: comes out of that tradition, and so his goal is 389 00:20:48,796 --> 00:20:53,916 Speaker 1: to inspire with that sense of hope and possibility. But 390 00:20:53,956 --> 00:20:56,276 Speaker 1: I think they're basically in some ways saying the same thing, 391 00:20:56,276 --> 00:20:59,716 Speaker 1: which is that we've created a dire situation that has 392 00:20:59,756 --> 00:21:04,036 Speaker 1: cost us enormously as a society, and there's a solution 393 00:21:04,076 --> 00:21:08,316 Speaker 1: if we're willing to take it, and it's hard. Both 394 00:21:08,396 --> 00:21:12,196 Speaker 1: fiction and fiction can be important parts of historical reckoning 395 00:21:12,756 --> 00:21:16,556 Speaker 1: of the kind that you're describing. And certainly the other 396 00:21:17,116 --> 00:21:20,516 Speaker 1: African American literary movements that you've described all had some 397 00:21:20,636 --> 00:21:26,436 Speaker 1: components of powerful nonfiction writers, essayists, memoirists, and also fiction writers. Right, 398 00:21:26,556 --> 00:21:29,036 Speaker 1: how do you think of the balance? I mean, many 399 00:21:29,076 --> 00:21:33,116 Speaker 1: of the writers you publish are primarily nonfiction writers, although 400 00:21:33,156 --> 00:21:35,676 Speaker 1: in some cases I mean Tonahasi published a novel that 401 00:21:35,716 --> 00:21:38,316 Speaker 1: was very well received recently. But how do you think 402 00:21:38,316 --> 00:21:42,036 Speaker 1: about that balance of fiction nonfiction as you develop a 403 00:21:42,116 --> 00:21:44,636 Speaker 1: group of writers who, as you've said, are not just 404 00:21:45,236 --> 00:21:46,876 Speaker 1: you know, they're not You're not just trying to sell books. 405 00:21:46,876 --> 00:21:49,716 Speaker 1: You're trying to shape and influence a way of engaging 406 00:21:49,756 --> 00:21:52,636 Speaker 1: with the world. Yeah. Now, I think fiction's really important. 407 00:21:52,636 --> 00:21:54,876 Speaker 1: I think poetry also is really important, and I think, 408 00:21:55,196 --> 00:21:57,996 Speaker 1: you know, screenwriting and playwriting are also very important. And 409 00:21:58,076 --> 00:22:00,396 Speaker 1: this is something I believe also very deeply, which is 410 00:22:00,436 --> 00:22:03,036 Speaker 1: that part of the political project is a project of 411 00:22:03,076 --> 00:22:06,356 Speaker 1: imagination and can you can you fight for something that 412 00:22:06,396 --> 00:22:09,636 Speaker 1: you can't see? You know? And sometimes we have to 413 00:22:09,756 --> 00:22:13,596 Speaker 1: imagine the thing that we want. And I think there's 414 00:22:13,636 --> 00:22:16,116 Speaker 1: a lot of writers who can maybe get slotted in 415 00:22:16,156 --> 00:22:19,476 Speaker 1: this kind of category of afrofuturism, that very sort of 416 00:22:19,516 --> 00:22:23,196 Speaker 1: imaginative space. But I think that is very complementary to 417 00:22:23,756 --> 00:22:26,956 Speaker 1: the nonfiction work because I think this is one of 418 00:22:26,996 --> 00:22:30,076 Speaker 1: the great things in one of the real challenges of 419 00:22:30,156 --> 00:22:32,196 Speaker 1: sort of African American history, but also history of a 420 00:22:32,196 --> 00:22:34,236 Speaker 1: lot of other marginalized groups, which is that you wake up, 421 00:22:34,316 --> 00:22:36,996 Speaker 1: you know, the first day of your consciousness, whether it's 422 00:22:37,036 --> 00:22:38,836 Speaker 1: you know, as a child or where you get older, 423 00:22:38,876 --> 00:22:40,396 Speaker 1: and you have like a moment of awakening to the 424 00:22:40,396 --> 00:22:43,276 Speaker 1: world that you're in. And it can be depressing, it 425 00:22:43,316 --> 00:22:45,916 Speaker 1: can be it can feel overwhelming, it can feel like 426 00:22:45,956 --> 00:22:49,556 Speaker 1: there are problems that you need to understand, but there's 427 00:22:49,596 --> 00:22:52,836 Speaker 1: also a world that you want to create. And I 428 00:22:52,876 --> 00:22:55,676 Speaker 1: think a lot of the works that we're talking about, 429 00:22:55,916 --> 00:22:57,916 Speaker 1: when they kind of go back into history and kind 430 00:22:57,916 --> 00:23:00,596 Speaker 1: of untangle the roots of some of our present problems 431 00:23:00,596 --> 00:23:04,796 Speaker 1: and tragedies, help explain that the sort of backwards looking part. 432 00:23:04,876 --> 00:23:06,836 Speaker 1: And I think sometimes it's our fiction that can help 433 00:23:06,916 --> 00:23:10,396 Speaker 1: us explain, can help us see something that's not there yet. 434 00:23:10,636 --> 00:23:12,556 Speaker 1: I also think that fiction is important. You know. I'm 435 00:23:12,596 --> 00:23:16,236 Speaker 1: doing the sixteen nineteen Project book this fall, and that 436 00:23:16,276 --> 00:23:18,956 Speaker 1: book is going to be a mix of nonfiction essays 437 00:23:19,076 --> 00:23:21,916 Speaker 1: and fiction. So there's going to be a great deal 438 00:23:21,916 --> 00:23:24,076 Speaker 1: of fiction in that book by really the best writers. 439 00:23:24,156 --> 00:23:26,476 Speaker 1: Fiction and poetry from the best writers who are working today. 440 00:23:26,716 --> 00:23:29,556 Speaker 1: And what they're doing is going back into history and 441 00:23:29,676 --> 00:23:32,796 Speaker 1: trying to imagine the interior lives of the people who 442 00:23:32,916 --> 00:23:36,636 Speaker 1: lived through the events that the essays are unpacking in 443 00:23:36,676 --> 00:23:40,396 Speaker 1: a nonfiction way, in an argumentative nonfiction way. But what 444 00:23:40,476 --> 00:23:42,476 Speaker 1: was it like to actually live it again? I think 445 00:23:42,516 --> 00:23:44,436 Speaker 1: that's one of the powerful things that's happening. You know, 446 00:23:44,516 --> 00:23:46,716 Speaker 1: I talked about what describes this moment makes it different 447 00:23:46,716 --> 00:23:49,036 Speaker 1: from some of these other historical moments, is I think 448 00:23:49,156 --> 00:23:51,676 Speaker 1: so much of it is in both imagining the future 449 00:23:51,676 --> 00:23:54,516 Speaker 1: but also looking back and understanding how we got here. 450 00:23:54,556 --> 00:23:56,716 Speaker 1: You look at the works of Colson Whitehead. Colton is 451 00:23:56,756 --> 00:24:00,076 Speaker 1: someone who I've always loved, and in part it's because 452 00:24:00,236 --> 00:24:02,916 Speaker 1: of the way that he kind of pointed our imaginations forward, 453 00:24:03,116 --> 00:24:05,836 Speaker 1: right but his last the sort of cycle of novels 454 00:24:05,876 --> 00:24:08,796 Speaker 1: that he's on right now, starting with The Underground Railroad 455 00:24:09,756 --> 00:24:11,516 Speaker 1: and then with Nickel Boys, and then he has another 456 00:24:11,516 --> 00:24:15,556 Speaker 1: one coming soon that go back into history are to 457 00:24:15,676 --> 00:24:18,436 Speaker 1: help us see that past with a new clarity. And 458 00:24:18,476 --> 00:24:20,996 Speaker 1: I think that's something that again is very indicative of 459 00:24:21,076 --> 00:24:24,116 Speaker 1: this age that the fiction and nonfiction are working, I 460 00:24:24,156 --> 00:24:26,996 Speaker 1: think hand in hand in that way, and in creating 461 00:24:26,996 --> 00:24:31,836 Speaker 1: this reckoning. The idea that it's possible to have profound 462 00:24:31,836 --> 00:24:37,316 Speaker 1: power over a culture and over imagination through curating a 463 00:24:37,396 --> 00:24:41,396 Speaker 1: collection of writers is emerging to me as a powerful 464 00:24:41,436 --> 00:24:43,876 Speaker 1: theme of our conversation. And I want to ask you 465 00:24:43,916 --> 00:24:46,876 Speaker 1: about what must be one challenging part of it. To 466 00:24:46,996 --> 00:24:49,356 Speaker 1: do this really well, you need a combination. You need 467 00:24:50,076 --> 00:24:52,396 Speaker 1: the people, the public intellectuals who are at the top 468 00:24:52,436 --> 00:24:56,396 Speaker 1: of their game, Tanhasi or Close and Whitehead. And yet 469 00:24:56,436 --> 00:24:59,356 Speaker 1: you also must be looking for brand new voices. You 470 00:24:59,436 --> 00:25:02,276 Speaker 1: must always be going through the manuscript's emissions and asking 471 00:25:02,276 --> 00:25:04,196 Speaker 1: people and keeping your ear to to the ground to 472 00:25:04,276 --> 00:25:06,556 Speaker 1: try to figure out who who are new exciting voices. 473 00:25:07,556 --> 00:25:09,636 Speaker 1: What's the trick too, If there is a trick to 474 00:25:09,716 --> 00:25:14,316 Speaker 1: trying to balance all those different components so that the 475 00:25:14,396 --> 00:25:18,916 Speaker 1: curating process doesn't become closed, how is it possible for 476 00:25:19,076 --> 00:25:21,156 Speaker 1: you to make sure that new voices, like you're always 477 00:25:21,196 --> 00:25:24,436 Speaker 1: looking for make their way in, right. I mean, I 478 00:25:24,476 --> 00:25:26,356 Speaker 1: think this is one of the useful things about having 479 00:25:26,636 --> 00:25:31,636 Speaker 1: a sort of team that works with me, because you know, 480 00:25:31,636 --> 00:25:34,156 Speaker 1: it is actually a lot to be you know, for instance, 481 00:25:34,156 --> 00:25:36,196 Speaker 1: I said I was working on the sixty nineteen project book. 482 00:25:36,196 --> 00:25:40,076 Speaker 1: You can only imagine how much attention, like every single 483 00:25:40,196 --> 00:25:42,476 Speaker 1: piece of punctuation in that book I have to pay 484 00:25:42,476 --> 00:25:46,636 Speaker 1: attention to because I know that one wrong sentence, one 485 00:25:46,716 --> 00:25:51,756 Speaker 1: wrong comma, and the weight of you know, twenty five 486 00:25:51,956 --> 00:25:57,236 Speaker 1: state legislature will land on us. So that's very preoccupying, right, 487 00:25:57,276 --> 00:25:59,276 Speaker 1: And then I'm also trying to work with as you said, 488 00:25:59,316 --> 00:26:02,276 Speaker 1: like some of these writers are are already very big 489 00:26:02,676 --> 00:26:05,276 Speaker 1: writers who are coming back for subsequent books. But we 490 00:26:05,316 --> 00:26:07,716 Speaker 1: have a great team of people who are who are 491 00:26:07,756 --> 00:26:13,036 Speaker 1: really you know, looking for those new voices and new writers, 492 00:26:13,076 --> 00:26:16,276 Speaker 1: you know, one of our like over the last three years, 493 00:26:16,276 --> 00:26:19,116 Speaker 1: since we've really been up and running in this sort 494 00:26:19,116 --> 00:26:21,316 Speaker 1: of relaunched version of the imprint, we've had a National 495 00:26:21,316 --> 00:26:24,036 Speaker 1: Book Award finalist every single year. And what's interesting is 496 00:26:24,076 --> 00:26:27,876 Speaker 1: it's the National Book Award finalists are not the Tanahassee's 497 00:26:27,916 --> 00:26:30,916 Speaker 1: and the Abram Candy's and you know, Brian Stevenson's their 498 00:26:30,916 --> 00:26:33,916 Speaker 1: first time writers almost in every case. There was Carlo 499 00:26:34,036 --> 00:26:36,956 Speaker 1: Ville Vincentsio who wrote a book called The Endocumented Americans, 500 00:26:36,956 --> 00:26:40,476 Speaker 1: which was a finalist last year. And Carla, you know, 501 00:26:40,556 --> 00:26:43,556 Speaker 1: started this book just out of college as herself being 502 00:26:43,556 --> 00:26:47,196 Speaker 1: an undocumented person. And then we had a book called 503 00:26:47,316 --> 00:26:49,636 Speaker 1: Brothers Have Been Done by a writer named Marwan Hisham 504 00:26:49,716 --> 00:26:53,796 Speaker 1: who was a citizen journalist in Syria writing about the 505 00:26:53,836 --> 00:26:57,636 Speaker 1: war from the inside during Isis occupation, which was a finalist. 506 00:26:57,756 --> 00:27:00,036 Speaker 1: And I mean had a collection of short stories called 507 00:27:00,076 --> 00:27:02,836 Speaker 1: Sabrina and Koreana by another first time writer, nam Kali 508 00:27:02,916 --> 00:27:06,356 Speaker 1: Fajardo and Stein, who was an indigenous Chicana who lived 509 00:27:06,396 --> 00:27:09,356 Speaker 1: in Colorado and was very much outside of like the 510 00:27:09,396 --> 00:27:12,676 Speaker 1: New York literary kind of seen. One of our younger 511 00:27:12,796 --> 00:27:17,876 Speaker 1: editors found her work and championed it, and hopefully we're 512 00:27:17,916 --> 00:27:20,636 Speaker 1: building her into another one of these writers who we 513 00:27:20,636 --> 00:27:22,356 Speaker 1: can think of as being like the sort of New 514 00:27:22,396 --> 00:27:25,636 Speaker 1: American Canadate of writers. Yeah, so we are absolutely still 515 00:27:25,636 --> 00:27:28,196 Speaker 1: looking and we're trying to also find ways to to 516 00:27:28,836 --> 00:27:31,276 Speaker 1: this has been very shrity process, but find ways to 517 00:27:31,316 --> 00:27:37,716 Speaker 1: open our submissions process to nonagented writers. Try to find 518 00:27:37,756 --> 00:27:41,156 Speaker 1: people who maybe can't get through that other layer of gatekeepers, 519 00:27:41,156 --> 00:27:43,356 Speaker 1: which are the literary agents, which are you know, publishing 520 00:27:43,436 --> 00:27:46,716 Speaker 1: has historically been very non diverse. The world of literary 521 00:27:46,796 --> 00:27:50,356 Speaker 1: agents even is vastly less diverse even in the world 522 00:27:50,396 --> 00:27:53,076 Speaker 1: of publishing houses. So so we're trying to figure out 523 00:27:53,116 --> 00:27:56,396 Speaker 1: ways of maybe helping that situation out. Thank you for that. 524 00:27:57,036 --> 00:27:58,796 Speaker 1: Nicole Hannah Jones has agreed to come on the show 525 00:27:58,796 --> 00:28:00,556 Speaker 1: a little bit later in the summer, so we're going 526 00:28:00,596 --> 00:28:02,636 Speaker 1: to have an opportunity to really delve into the sixteen 527 00:28:02,716 --> 00:28:06,996 Speaker 1: nineteen project even more. The sixteen nineteen project puts on 528 00:28:07,036 --> 00:28:11,076 Speaker 1: the table something we haven't talked about yet, which is backlash. 529 00:28:11,116 --> 00:28:13,116 Speaker 1: It's a sign in a way that a cultural movement 530 00:28:13,196 --> 00:28:16,116 Speaker 1: or an intellectual literary movement is having an impact if 531 00:28:16,556 --> 00:28:20,156 Speaker 1: some people are angry about it, or threatened by it, 532 00:28:20,316 --> 00:28:24,476 Speaker 1: or disturbed by it. I'm wondering if, more broadly, you 533 00:28:24,556 --> 00:28:29,076 Speaker 1: think about the kind of dynamic interplay between the movement 534 00:28:29,156 --> 00:28:33,836 Speaker 1: you're helping to create and it's discontent out there in 535 00:28:33,876 --> 00:28:37,476 Speaker 1: the world, largely in Trump world, but not only more 536 00:28:37,516 --> 00:28:41,876 Speaker 1: broadly among some people in Middle America who are you know, 537 00:28:42,156 --> 00:28:45,556 Speaker 1: often mischaracterizing and generally haven't read the things that they're criticizing, 538 00:28:45,636 --> 00:28:50,316 Speaker 1: to be sure, but who nevertheless experience there being a 539 00:28:50,476 --> 00:28:53,436 Speaker 1: kind of intellectual movement and they're not sure what it is, 540 00:28:53,436 --> 00:28:54,796 Speaker 1: but they're pretty sure that they don't like it or 541 00:28:54,836 --> 00:28:57,716 Speaker 1: that they're afraid of it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I 542 00:28:57,716 --> 00:29:01,916 Speaker 1: think this is completely predictable that there would be a backlash. 543 00:29:01,956 --> 00:29:05,276 Speaker 1: There's always a backlash. What's only principle if you succeeded, right, 544 00:29:05,316 --> 00:29:08,436 Speaker 1: I mean, literary movements that don't succeed don't don't produce backlash. 545 00:29:08,476 --> 00:29:10,636 Speaker 1: It's a sign of exactly so as soon as you 546 00:29:10,676 --> 00:29:12,276 Speaker 1: see the success, you know the backlash is coming. And 547 00:29:12,276 --> 00:29:13,756 Speaker 1: it's funny because you know, you look at each one 548 00:29:13,756 --> 00:29:15,956 Speaker 1: of these books, and it's true that the god like 549 00:29:16,036 --> 00:29:18,716 Speaker 1: Brian Stevenson as the one person who has never gotten 550 00:29:18,716 --> 00:29:21,076 Speaker 1: any kind of backlash, which I think I need to 551 00:29:21,076 --> 00:29:22,996 Speaker 1: think about more, like, why is it that Brian is 552 00:29:23,036 --> 00:29:25,556 Speaker 1: able to like Brian talks as much as anyone else 553 00:29:25,596 --> 00:29:29,396 Speaker 1: about the about systemic racism, which is allegedly like the 554 00:29:29,796 --> 00:29:31,836 Speaker 1: core problem people have with what that they're describing as 555 00:29:31,876 --> 00:29:34,596 Speaker 1: critical race theory, that racism isn't just a matter of 556 00:29:34,676 --> 00:29:36,796 Speaker 1: what's in your heart. It's a matter of systems and Brian, 557 00:29:36,876 --> 00:29:39,036 Speaker 1: this is what his whole career has been about, but 558 00:29:39,236 --> 00:29:42,116 Speaker 1: just mantling these systems. And yet somehow he has escaped 559 00:29:42,356 --> 00:29:44,596 Speaker 1: this sort of backlash, which I think is really great 560 00:29:44,716 --> 00:29:46,836 Speaker 1: and also really interesting. I need to think about why 561 00:29:46,836 --> 00:29:50,436 Speaker 1: that it's But yes, it's totally predictable, and it's the 562 00:29:50,516 --> 00:29:53,156 Speaker 1: kind of thing that is, you know, its purposes to 563 00:29:53,316 --> 00:29:55,756 Speaker 1: demoralize you. I mean, the thing that's demoralizing is that, 564 00:29:56,956 --> 00:29:58,596 Speaker 1: as you said, I don't think these are people who 565 00:29:58,596 --> 00:30:01,676 Speaker 1: have necessarily engaged in any kind of meaningful, good faith 566 00:30:01,716 --> 00:30:04,396 Speaker 1: way with the work that they're not just criticizing but 567 00:30:04,476 --> 00:30:08,796 Speaker 1: trying to outlaw. And that's frustrating and demoralizing, and it 568 00:30:08,796 --> 00:30:12,196 Speaker 1: makes you want to defend in good faith the work 569 00:30:12,236 --> 00:30:14,756 Speaker 1: that you're doing, but you're actually putting this good faith 570 00:30:14,796 --> 00:30:18,236 Speaker 1: defense out against people who actually don't care about the 571 00:30:18,276 --> 00:30:21,356 Speaker 1: good faith defense. Meanwhile, you know this as someone who's 572 00:30:21,356 --> 00:30:24,116 Speaker 1: written books and is that you know, you get one 573 00:30:24,396 --> 00:30:27,316 Speaker 1: bad review and it can dominate your mind in a 574 00:30:27,356 --> 00:30:31,156 Speaker 1: way that ten good reviews don't. And the fact is 575 00:30:31,516 --> 00:30:35,996 Speaker 1: that these writers have had an enormous effect on the 576 00:30:36,036 --> 00:30:40,396 Speaker 1: way this country thinks about it's past, it's present, and 577 00:30:40,476 --> 00:30:45,036 Speaker 1: it's possible future, and I would say an enormously positive 578 00:30:45,196 --> 00:30:47,516 Speaker 1: effect on those things. And that's something I try to 579 00:30:47,556 --> 00:30:51,916 Speaker 1: keep in mind, is that we're winning and the backlash 580 00:30:51,996 --> 00:30:55,676 Speaker 1: is a sign that we're winning. This year we published 581 00:30:55,716 --> 00:30:59,396 Speaker 1: Heather McGee's book, The Some of Us, which you know, 582 00:30:59,556 --> 00:31:03,516 Speaker 1: was a best seller, and again kept pushing forward, I think, 583 00:31:03,516 --> 00:31:06,556 Speaker 1: into the next stage of this idea, beyond or one 584 00:31:06,556 --> 00:31:09,436 Speaker 1: oh one, into sort of like two oh one about well, 585 00:31:09,476 --> 00:31:11,796 Speaker 1: you know, if this is what's you know, if our 586 00:31:11,836 --> 00:31:15,676 Speaker 1: policies historically have been racist, like, how can we use 587 00:31:15,756 --> 00:31:19,956 Speaker 1: that understanding to improve present policymaking. These ideas have been 588 00:31:19,956 --> 00:31:24,316 Speaker 1: assimilated into mainstream democratic thinking, and I think, you know, 589 00:31:24,356 --> 00:31:27,836 Speaker 1: we're on our way to having an anti racist majority 590 00:31:27,836 --> 00:31:31,556 Speaker 1: in this country, which will be a real tipping point, 591 00:31:31,956 --> 00:31:35,556 Speaker 1: even beyond the demographic changes. That's a tipping point that 592 00:31:35,676 --> 00:31:38,316 Speaker 1: I think is coming and it's not and they won't 593 00:31:38,316 --> 00:31:40,556 Speaker 1: be able to stop it. And if we can just 594 00:31:40,836 --> 00:31:45,276 Speaker 1: figure out how to survive these occasional tempests, I think 595 00:31:45,516 --> 00:31:58,756 Speaker 1: we'll keep pushing forward. We'll be right back. I have 596 00:31:58,796 --> 00:32:02,596 Speaker 1: a question about economic power in its relationship to the 597 00:32:02,636 --> 00:32:06,596 Speaker 1: Big Picture project that you're involved in. Publishing houses are 598 00:32:06,636 --> 00:32:08,676 Speaker 1: almost all in the United States owned by a tiny 599 00:32:08,756 --> 00:32:12,996 Speaker 1: number of big conglomerates. Right. Penguinandom is no different. But 600 00:32:13,076 --> 00:32:15,116 Speaker 1: at one time, you know, let's say, the record industry 601 00:32:15,236 --> 00:32:17,836 Speaker 1: was also in the hands of a small number of actors. 602 00:32:18,316 --> 00:32:21,396 Speaker 1: And one of the innovations that we saw in the 603 00:32:21,516 --> 00:32:27,196 Speaker 1: nineties and the odds was the starting of music industry entities, 604 00:32:27,236 --> 00:32:30,396 Speaker 1: as it were, houses some of which were black owned 605 00:32:30,436 --> 00:32:33,756 Speaker 1: or a majority black owned, that contributed to a transformation 606 00:32:33,796 --> 00:32:37,196 Speaker 1: in that industry. Not total, but a meaningful transformation. Right. 607 00:32:37,636 --> 00:32:40,396 Speaker 1: Is that doable in publishing? I mean, could we imagine 608 00:32:40,636 --> 00:32:42,676 Speaker 1: that there could be a publisher doing the kind of 609 00:32:42,676 --> 00:32:45,516 Speaker 1: work that you're doing that was genuinely a black owned, 610 00:32:45,596 --> 00:32:50,196 Speaker 1: independent publishing house rather than part of a global conglomerate. Yeah. No, 611 00:32:50,196 --> 00:32:53,676 Speaker 1: this is something I think about quite a lot, because, yeah, 612 00:32:53,716 --> 00:32:55,556 Speaker 1: there is like a certain amount of tension, of course 613 00:32:55,716 --> 00:32:58,396 Speaker 1: in doing the work we do within this giant conglomerate. 614 00:32:58,436 --> 00:33:01,596 Speaker 1: There's also you know, there are these sort of models 615 00:33:01,636 --> 00:33:03,876 Speaker 1: for how it's been done in the past. There are 616 00:33:03,916 --> 00:33:06,916 Speaker 1: independent black houses that are out there still. I just 617 00:33:06,956 --> 00:33:08,436 Speaker 1: did an event the other day with Hockey Amunt of 618 00:33:08,436 --> 00:33:10,596 Speaker 1: Booty who run Third World Press, which has been around 619 00:33:10,596 --> 00:33:13,956 Speaker 1: for forty years and has published some very important writers 620 00:33:13,956 --> 00:33:16,516 Speaker 1: over that time. And I think, you know, this is 621 00:33:16,556 --> 00:33:19,516 Speaker 1: a time when publishing in general again consolidations in some 622 00:33:19,556 --> 00:33:23,596 Speaker 1: ways of response to weakness, not to strength, and the 623 00:33:23,676 --> 00:33:27,196 Speaker 1: weakness is that there are now lots of independent or 624 00:33:27,636 --> 00:33:31,996 Speaker 1: VC funded entities. They're trying to remake the business in 625 00:33:32,076 --> 00:33:34,116 Speaker 1: various ways. And you can even see things like substack 626 00:33:34,196 --> 00:33:37,356 Speaker 1: as being sort of encroaching a little bit on book 627 00:33:37,396 --> 00:33:40,436 Speaker 1: publishing traditional territory of being the place where you know, 628 00:33:40,436 --> 00:33:42,796 Speaker 1: a writer could have an independent voice and could control 629 00:33:42,836 --> 00:33:45,796 Speaker 1: their own content. And now you know, other people are 630 00:33:45,796 --> 00:33:47,716 Speaker 1: finding other ways of doing that. So I think there's 631 00:33:47,716 --> 00:33:51,236 Speaker 1: a lot of interesting open We're kind of, I think 632 00:33:51,236 --> 00:33:54,076 Speaker 1: a transitional moment and a somewhat open moment in terms 633 00:33:54,076 --> 00:33:56,556 Speaker 1: of where this industry is going to go, and I 634 00:33:56,596 --> 00:33:59,036 Speaker 1: do think there are opportunities for that. That again, that said, 635 00:33:59,396 --> 00:34:02,076 Speaker 1: one world is and I think this is really important, 636 00:34:02,156 --> 00:34:05,756 Speaker 1: is that it's not we're not just publishing black books, right, 637 00:34:05,756 --> 00:34:08,596 Speaker 1: We're publishing books from all kinds of people. We're trying 638 00:34:08,596 --> 00:34:10,996 Speaker 1: to publish it out of a certain tradition and sensibility 639 00:34:11,116 --> 00:34:13,076 Speaker 1: though that's different from the sort of I would call 640 00:34:13,116 --> 00:34:17,116 Speaker 1: the mainstream publishing world's tradition and sensibility. I do think 641 00:34:17,116 --> 00:34:19,636 Speaker 1: there's a place for an independent publisher right now, maybe 642 00:34:19,716 --> 00:34:22,476 Speaker 1: more than ever, because a lot of the traditional advantages 643 00:34:22,516 --> 00:34:25,436 Speaker 1: of a large publisher don't exist as in the way 644 00:34:25,476 --> 00:34:28,276 Speaker 1: that they historically did. You know, the physical distribution and 645 00:34:28,356 --> 00:34:30,476 Speaker 1: warehousing and all that is not as important as it 646 00:34:30,556 --> 00:34:34,676 Speaker 1: was fifty years ago because basically everyone's solving to one 647 00:34:34,796 --> 00:34:37,796 Speaker 1: customer for one thing that runs so much of the business, 648 00:34:37,876 --> 00:34:40,196 Speaker 1: and a lot of what's being sold is digital in 649 00:34:40,316 --> 00:34:44,076 Speaker 1: audio and ebooks forms. So we'll watch that space and 650 00:34:44,116 --> 00:34:46,796 Speaker 1: see whether see whether that emerges. As a last question, 651 00:34:47,036 --> 00:34:48,676 Speaker 1: I just want to ask you a little bit about 652 00:34:48,796 --> 00:34:51,956 Speaker 1: your own biography and what brought you to where you are. 653 00:34:52,196 --> 00:34:54,876 Speaker 1: I read that you went to a Hunter College high school. 654 00:34:54,876 --> 00:34:59,276 Speaker 1: How was that educational experience important to what ultimately led 655 00:34:59,276 --> 00:35:01,716 Speaker 1: you to where you were, and how did going to 656 00:35:01,796 --> 00:35:05,396 Speaker 1: school there relate to the rest of your childhood and upbringing. Yeah, 657 00:35:05,436 --> 00:35:07,956 Speaker 1: so I grew up in Harlem in you know, the 658 00:35:08,076 --> 00:35:12,396 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies and eighties. Harlem was definitely pre gentrification. I 659 00:35:12,436 --> 00:35:15,476 Speaker 1: grew up in the Grant housing projects which are on 660 00:35:15,476 --> 00:35:17,556 Speaker 1: the west side of Harlem. And then I and I 661 00:35:17,556 --> 00:35:20,356 Speaker 1: went to a public school there, initially PS thirty six, 662 00:35:20,676 --> 00:35:24,396 Speaker 1: and it was it was not a good public school, 663 00:35:24,396 --> 00:35:26,836 Speaker 1: and there was a lot of chaos, not a lot 664 00:35:26,836 --> 00:35:28,756 Speaker 1: of resources. It was a time when Harlem and a 665 00:35:28,756 --> 00:35:31,196 Speaker 1: lot of uh, you know what we're called, I guess 666 00:35:31,236 --> 00:35:34,236 Speaker 1: inner cities around the country were really in a state 667 00:35:34,276 --> 00:35:38,036 Speaker 1: of complete neglect and implosion. And it was a very 668 00:35:38,116 --> 00:35:42,596 Speaker 1: chaotic situation. But there were teachers there and principles there 669 00:35:42,636 --> 00:35:45,196 Speaker 1: who definitely had come out of civil rights movement right 670 00:35:45,236 --> 00:35:48,956 Speaker 1: and more radical movements that followed, and who who really 671 00:35:48,956 --> 00:35:51,756 Speaker 1: believed that they were still in it exactly and we're 672 00:35:51,796 --> 00:35:54,196 Speaker 1: still in it. It was still going on, right, and 673 00:35:54,516 --> 00:35:56,036 Speaker 1: so they barely come out of it, if they come 674 00:35:56,036 --> 00:35:58,476 Speaker 1: out of it at all. And they saw, you know, 675 00:35:58,516 --> 00:36:00,596 Speaker 1: they really wanted to give me an opportunity, and so 676 00:36:00,636 --> 00:36:02,396 Speaker 1: there was a school that you could get into just 677 00:36:02,436 --> 00:36:05,556 Speaker 1: by passing a test. There was no other qualification. And 678 00:36:05,596 --> 00:36:07,796 Speaker 1: it did change my life to be able to go 679 00:36:07,876 --> 00:36:09,916 Speaker 1: into that school. I mean was being raised at the 680 00:36:09,916 --> 00:36:13,516 Speaker 1: time by a single mother in the housing projects, and 681 00:36:13,556 --> 00:36:16,636 Speaker 1: then I was suddenly put into this environment where I 682 00:36:16,676 --> 00:36:18,876 Speaker 1: was surrounded by kids from all over the city and 683 00:36:18,916 --> 00:36:21,316 Speaker 1: in a situation where I could I could just learn 684 00:36:21,556 --> 00:36:24,036 Speaker 1: and it was free, which I think is also really important. 685 00:36:24,596 --> 00:36:27,756 Speaker 1: That it had all of the advantages of any private school, 686 00:36:28,196 --> 00:36:31,156 Speaker 1: but it was free. It just kills me because I 687 00:36:31,236 --> 00:36:33,596 Speaker 1: knew And this is one of the great lessons of 688 00:36:33,636 --> 00:36:36,156 Speaker 1: that moment for me, that I was leaving kids who 689 00:36:36,196 --> 00:36:38,116 Speaker 1: were just as smart as the kids I was coming to, 690 00:36:38,756 --> 00:36:42,716 Speaker 1: but who for various reasons, because of disorganization at home 691 00:36:42,876 --> 00:36:46,636 Speaker 1: or because of other just simple things like you know, 692 00:36:46,836 --> 00:36:50,316 Speaker 1: every every kid in my class was on public assistance 693 00:36:50,356 --> 00:36:53,676 Speaker 1: of some kind. But these were clearly intelligent kids, but 694 00:36:53,916 --> 00:36:57,716 Speaker 1: didn't necessarily have some other elements that allowed me to leave. 695 00:36:57,876 --> 00:37:00,436 Speaker 1: And I think that made a big difference going to 696 00:37:00,476 --> 00:37:03,996 Speaker 1: a public school, being sort of divided between these two worlds, 697 00:37:04,596 --> 00:37:07,076 Speaker 1: the world of home and the world of the school 698 00:37:07,076 --> 00:37:09,716 Speaker 1: on the Upper East Side. It really I did shape 699 00:37:09,756 --> 00:37:14,676 Speaker 1: my sonse of certainly injustice, but also that the injustice 700 00:37:14,756 --> 00:37:17,076 Speaker 1: wasn't fair. And I think this is really so cool 701 00:37:17,476 --> 00:37:19,476 Speaker 1: to like a lot of these books that we're talking about, 702 00:37:19,716 --> 00:37:21,716 Speaker 1: very few of the writers woke up and we're like, 703 00:37:22,116 --> 00:37:24,036 Speaker 1: I want to fight for racial justice. A lot of 704 00:37:24,036 --> 00:37:26,396 Speaker 1: them woke up and we're with a question, which is, 705 00:37:26,436 --> 00:37:29,036 Speaker 1: why is it like this? Why is it that I 706 00:37:29,116 --> 00:37:31,556 Speaker 1: live like this and ten blocks away as in my case, 707 00:37:31,636 --> 00:37:34,036 Speaker 1: you know, or twenty blocks away people live in an 708 00:37:34,196 --> 00:37:36,516 Speaker 1: entirely different way. My school was on Park Avenue on 709 00:37:36,556 --> 00:37:39,236 Speaker 1: the Upper east Side, and it was like, okay, so 710 00:37:39,356 --> 00:37:42,196 Speaker 1: there are these two radically different worlds. Why is that? 711 00:37:42,236 --> 00:37:44,916 Speaker 1: And once you start asking that question, you can't stop. 712 00:37:44,956 --> 00:37:47,756 Speaker 1: It's not out of some desire to create division or 713 00:37:47,876 --> 00:37:50,836 Speaker 1: to grift your way into some hustle. It's like, I 714 00:37:50,876 --> 00:37:53,236 Speaker 1: want to know why the world is the way it is. 715 00:37:53,956 --> 00:37:58,276 Speaker 1: And that kind of bifurcation of my childhood is what 716 00:37:59,116 --> 00:38:03,116 Speaker 1: is what made that question so acute for me. There's 717 00:38:03,276 --> 00:38:06,196 Speaker 1: very few things in life more generative than realizing that 718 00:38:06,396 --> 00:38:09,236 Speaker 1: nothing makes sense right. And it can be very or 719 00:38:09,476 --> 00:38:11,596 Speaker 1: hard as a kid to be put in that situation. 720 00:38:12,436 --> 00:38:15,396 Speaker 1: But if you make it through that initial wonder, you 721 00:38:15,476 --> 00:38:18,116 Speaker 1: have a lifelong question about how things work right. And 722 00:38:18,156 --> 00:38:20,916 Speaker 1: what a great question like not to feel like I understand, 723 00:38:20,956 --> 00:38:24,116 Speaker 1: but that I wonder and then to see where that 724 00:38:24,196 --> 00:38:27,316 Speaker 1: wondering takes me. And I think if you'll read between 725 00:38:27,356 --> 00:38:28,876 Speaker 1: the world to me by Tanahas. If you read How 726 00:38:28,916 --> 00:38:31,076 Speaker 1: to Be an Anti Racist by Abraham Kendy, these your 727 00:38:31,076 --> 00:38:33,236 Speaker 1: books that start, if you read the sixteen nineteen project, 728 00:38:33,636 --> 00:38:37,956 Speaker 1: they all start with a question like why is this 729 00:38:38,076 --> 00:38:43,636 Speaker 1: clearly unfair situation? Why does it exist? This has been 730 00:38:43,676 --> 00:38:46,676 Speaker 1: for me one of the most enlivening and fascinating conversations 731 00:38:46,676 --> 00:38:48,796 Speaker 1: that I've had since starting the podcast. I would just 732 00:38:48,796 --> 00:38:51,516 Speaker 1: want to express my gratitude Chris for the conversation, but 733 00:38:51,556 --> 00:38:53,876 Speaker 1: also really for the work that you're doing for the 734 00:38:54,476 --> 00:38:57,236 Speaker 1: construction of the thought world and the curation and the 735 00:38:57,316 --> 00:39:00,116 Speaker 1: organization of a movement. I think it's powerful. I think 736 00:39:00,116 --> 00:39:02,756 Speaker 1: it's profound, and it's having an enormous impact. Thank you, 737 00:39:03,156 --> 00:39:12,076 Speaker 1: Thank you. I really appreciate listening to Chris. I was 738 00:39:12,236 --> 00:39:15,716 Speaker 1: blown away by the importance of the vision that he 739 00:39:15,796 --> 00:39:19,556 Speaker 1: has and how far he has already come to accomplishing it. 740 00:39:20,676 --> 00:39:22,956 Speaker 1: Instead of just looking at a publishing house as a 741 00:39:22,956 --> 00:39:26,156 Speaker 1: for profit business, or even as a list of titles 742 00:39:26,276 --> 00:39:28,916 Speaker 1: that might work together to one degree or another, he's 743 00:39:29,076 --> 00:39:32,596 Speaker 1: reconceiving the idea of an imprint of a publishing house 744 00:39:33,036 --> 00:39:36,876 Speaker 1: as a kind of metaphorical group house or community in 745 00:39:36,916 --> 00:39:42,916 Speaker 1: which intellectuals, writers, creators can come together to be a movement, 746 00:39:43,236 --> 00:39:47,196 Speaker 1: not just a set of books or authors or ideas. 747 00:39:48,076 --> 00:39:51,196 Speaker 1: And Chris isn't just talking the talk. He's actually done 748 00:39:51,196 --> 00:39:55,116 Speaker 1: it already. He has published and edited a large number 749 00:39:55,156 --> 00:39:58,236 Speaker 1: of the writers who are contributing to our current moment 750 00:39:58,556 --> 00:40:02,956 Speaker 1: of historical reckoning with the legacy of racism in America 751 00:40:03,196 --> 00:40:05,876 Speaker 1: and with the crucial question of what we need to 752 00:40:05,916 --> 00:40:09,636 Speaker 1: do next to improve it. That's explicitly the project of 753 00:40:09,676 --> 00:40:14,116 Speaker 1: Tanahasi Coats, it's explicitly the project of Brian Stevenson, and 754 00:40:14,156 --> 00:40:16,676 Speaker 1: it's also the project of a large number of other 755 00:40:16,716 --> 00:40:19,716 Speaker 1: writers who are part of the literary group whom Chris 756 00:40:19,836 --> 00:40:24,236 Speaker 1: is publishing. I was also very struck by Chris's thoughtful 757 00:40:24,356 --> 00:40:27,396 Speaker 1: observations on the way that we need not only nonfiction 758 00:40:27,636 --> 00:40:30,796 Speaker 1: but also fiction to make sense of our past and 759 00:40:30,996 --> 00:40:34,276 Speaker 1: of our present. He's really bringing together both of those 760 00:40:34,276 --> 00:40:38,836 Speaker 1: genres of writing within his publishing empire and its growth. 761 00:40:39,196 --> 00:40:42,876 Speaker 1: And it's surely appropriate, given his interest in history, that 762 00:40:42,916 --> 00:40:47,356 Speaker 1: he is deeply aware of how earlier historical movements in 763 00:40:47,436 --> 00:40:51,596 Speaker 1: African American literary and social thought have themselves shaped our 764 00:40:51,716 --> 00:40:54,996 Speaker 1: national conversation, going all the way back to the Harlem 765 00:40:55,076 --> 00:41:00,836 Speaker 1: Renaissance and up through our contemporary world. Sometimes on Deep Background, 766 00:41:00,956 --> 00:41:07,436 Speaker 1: when we get behind the stories, what we find is disorder, illogic, difficulty, 767 00:41:07,436 --> 00:41:10,876 Speaker 1: and contradiction. That was not my experience of the conversation 768 00:41:10,956 --> 00:41:14,796 Speaker 1: with Chris. To the contrary, getting behind the story of 769 00:41:14,836 --> 00:41:18,756 Speaker 1: how his publishing house has put together its remarkable list 770 00:41:18,796 --> 00:41:22,436 Speaker 1: of books and its remarkable community of writers, I actually 771 00:41:22,516 --> 00:41:28,076 Speaker 1: discovered a coherent, thoughtful, historically sophisticated plan for what he 772 00:41:28,116 --> 00:41:32,276 Speaker 1: intends to do and which he is already effectuating. If 773 00:41:32,316 --> 00:41:35,756 Speaker 1: only all conversations about what's going on behind the scenes 774 00:41:35,796 --> 00:41:39,796 Speaker 1: of power were so inspiring. Until the next time I 775 00:41:39,836 --> 00:41:43,556 Speaker 1: speak to you, be well, think deep thoughts, and have 776 00:41:43,636 --> 00:41:47,236 Speaker 1: a little fun. Deep Background is brought to you by 777 00:41:47,276 --> 00:41:51,356 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Mola Board, our engineer is 778 00:41:51,396 --> 00:41:55,636 Speaker 1: Ben Tolliday, and our showrunner is Sophie Crane mckibbon. Editorial 779 00:41:55,676 --> 00:42:00,236 Speaker 1: support from noahm Osband. Theme music by Luis Gara at Pushkin. 780 00:42:00,396 --> 00:42:04,276 Speaker 1: Thanks to Mia Lobell, Julia Barton, Lydia, Jean Coott, Heather Faine, 781 00:42:04,516 --> 00:42:09,356 Speaker 1: Carlie Migliori, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, and Jacob Weisberg. You 782 00:42:09,356 --> 00:42:11,876 Speaker 1: can find me on Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. I 783 00:42:11,956 --> 00:42:14,356 Speaker 1: also write a column for Bloomberg Opinion, which you can 784 00:42:14,396 --> 00:42:18,476 Speaker 1: find at bloomberg dot com slash Feldman. To discover Bloomberg's 785 00:42:18,476 --> 00:42:22,476 Speaker 1: original stlative podcasts, go to Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts, 786 00:42:22,836 --> 00:42:25,316 Speaker 1: and if you like what you heard today, please write 787 00:42:25,316 --> 00:42:29,076 Speaker 1: a review or tell a friend. This is deep background