Speaker 1: Welcome back to season two of Frida Egg Stories. This
Speaker 1: episode on Bobby Klampett and the Golfing Machine is brought
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Speaker 1: so it'll dig down underneath that bad lie and propel
Speaker 1: that ball right out onto the green.
Speaker 3: Here's the thing.
Speaker 4: Playing out of a buried lion of bunker is completely
Speaker 4: different than playing out of a nice and clean line
Speaker 4: a greenside bunker. You need to be a risk on
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Speaker 5: All right.
Speaker 1: Hello, how's it going, George?
Speaker 6: Hey, you can hear me and see me. That's a plus.
Speaker 1: That's George Pepper. He used to edit Golf magazine and
Speaker 1: in July nineteen eighty two he was at Royal Troon
Speaker 1: in Scotland for the Open Championship. It's a long time
Speaker 1: ago now, but one particular memory has stuck with him.
Speaker 1: He was in the clubhouse, like the main room.
Speaker 6: I think they probably called it the smoking lounge in
Speaker 6: those days. It was a big picture window that looked
Speaker 6: out onto that eighteenth hole, looked right through the green
Speaker 6: all the way down the fairway.
Speaker 1: George was in that room looking out that window on
Speaker 1: Friday afternoon when the leader of the Open was finishing
Speaker 1: his second round and he hit.
Speaker 6: A good drive and I think he had some sort
Speaker 6: of short iron into the green.
Speaker 3: And it was pretty.
Speaker 6: Weird because you stand in that smoking lounge look out
Speaker 6: through the windows and you see the golfer one hundred
Speaker 6: and fifty yards down the way, and you see him
Speaker 6: hit the ball, and then it disappears it's up there
Speaker 6: because the ceiling of the room.
Speaker 3: Blocks your ear, so you have no idea.
Speaker 6: You saw it get launched, and I will never forget
Speaker 6: it just appeared out of the ceiling, so to speak.
Speaker 6: Plump right down on the green, I think fairly close
Speaker 6: to the hole, dow and the place went nuts well.
Speaker 1: And it was pretty clear to everyone at that point
Speaker 1: that Bobby Clampett was going to win the nineteen eighty
Speaker 1: two Open Championship. Clampet was twenty two years old, a
Speaker 1: Californian with a carefree attitude and a head of blonde curls.
Speaker 1: Media loved him, and one aspect of the intrigue around
Speaker 1: him was how he talked about the golf swing. He
Speaker 1: used this very scientific language and kept referring to a
Speaker 1: book called The Golfing Machine, which was written by an
Speaker 1: engineer from Seattle named Homer Kelly.
Speaker 6: We were very much aware of Holmer Kelly and the
Speaker 6: Golfing Machine. I still remember sort of a small, trim
Speaker 6: sized book, yellow cover and all of these geometric lines
Speaker 6: on it, and trying to read it unsuccessfully like everybody else.
Speaker 1: And at the eighty two Open, Bobby Clampett's play was
Speaker 1: forcing even the skeptics to take the Golfing Machine seriously.
Speaker 1: He shot sixty seven sixty six in his first two rounds.
Speaker 3: I was just on.
Speaker 7: Every part of my game was on. It was pretty
Speaker 7: remarkable two days where just everything.
Speaker 3: Was going right.
Speaker 1: That night he slept on a five shot lead. Bobby
Speaker 1: Klampett had been one of the finest junior in college
Speaker 1: golfers since Jack Nicholas, but an open victory would have
Speaker 1: been a moment of validation not just of the player himself,
Speaker 1: but also of the science he endorsed. Clampett was truly
Speaker 1: a product of the golfing machine, so whether he wanted
Speaker 1: to or not, he had become the first important test
Speaker 1: case for whether it all worked. I'm Garrett Morrison, and
Speaker 1: this is Frida egg Stories today, the story of Homer, Kelly,
Speaker 1: Bobby Clampett and the science that they believed would solve
Speaker 1: the mysteries of golf. So fifty years ago. It took
Speaker 1: a certain kind of person to get into the golfing machine,
Speaker 1: and Bobby Clampett just happened to be that kind of person.
Speaker 1: From the beginning. He was fascinated, specifically by the act
Speaker 1: of hitting the ball. The first time he saw golf
Speaker 1: being played, Bobby was six and he was walking around
Speaker 1: the Olympic Club in San Francisco with his mom and stepdad.
Speaker 7: And then I saw I can still vividly remember it,
Speaker 7: I'm pretty sure was the second hole, and I saw
Speaker 7: this man hitting what would have been his second shot,
Speaker 7: most likely into that part four, and I remember watching.
Speaker 8: The ball and following it up into the big trees,
Speaker 8: and then it came up and landed on the green,
Speaker 8: and I just thought, that is the coolest thing ever,
Speaker 8: hitting a little white ball.
Speaker 3: It just captured me.
Speaker 7: It wasn't long after that we moved to Monterey and
Speaker 7: my first experience. I kept bugging my mom, I want
Speaker 7: to learn to play golf, and she was like, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 7: one more thing, and I said, no, I really want
Speaker 7: to learn to play golf. Yeah, you said that about
Speaker 7: tennis and football and baseball and basketball and blah blah blah.
Speaker 3: Skiing, I said, no, I really want to learn to
Speaker 3: play golf.
Speaker 1: What do you think it is about golf that appealed
Speaker 1: to you so much. You mentioned that you played a
Speaker 1: number of different sports, but golf obviously took on the
Speaker 1: status of a near obsession pretty quickly with you at
Speaker 1: a young age, very quickly. So what was it about it.
Speaker 7: I had had some frustrating moments playing team sports, and
Speaker 7: I can remember times, you know, the kids wouldn't let
Speaker 7: me play quarterback because the bullying that goes on in
Speaker 7: the playground, And I knew I could throw harder, better,
Speaker 7: faster than any of them could, and golf allowed me
Speaker 7: that access to be away from that.
Speaker 3: So I knew very little about the sport right.
Speaker 7: In fact, I knew nothing about the sport when I
Speaker 7: first got into it. So I can remember I loved
Speaker 7: riding my bike, and I remember riding to the Thunderbird
Speaker 7: bookstore there at Mid Valley Carmel and engaging the salesperson
Speaker 7: there on the discussion of I want to learn to
Speaker 7: play golf, and what books do you have in the
Speaker 7: store to recommend to me? And so I came across
Speaker 7: this book the lady suggested how to Play Golf by
Speaker 7: Sam Snead, and it was almost all pictures. So I
Speaker 7: went on this little individual pursuit of trying to mimic
Speaker 7: Sam Snead's golf swing through these pictures. And I would
Speaker 7: try to stand like Sam Snead, and I'd grip it
Speaker 7: like Sam Snead, and I'd try to make a backswing
Speaker 7: like Sam Snead, and that was always at the forefront
Speaker 7: of my mind, trying to mimic good swings.
Speaker 1: When Bobby was about ten, his mother finally gave way.
Speaker 1: She let him start taking lessons at the local club
Speaker 1: in Carmel Valley, California, with a pro named Lee Martin.
Speaker 1: Three years later, Lee left and a new pro arrived,
Speaker 1: a pro who would match Bobby's enthusiasm for mastering all
Speaker 1: the details of the golf swing.
Speaker 7: In comes Ben Doyle as the new golf instructor, and
Speaker 7: I remember in our first meeting, he says, well, let
Speaker 7: me take a picture of your swing. And he had
Speaker 7: a polaroid graftcheck camera when it was old cameras with
Speaker 7: the eight frames, you know, in sequence, and he started
Speaker 7: taking some pictures of my swing. And then we started
Speaker 7: talking about and he said, you know, I were you,
Speaker 7: I'd try to do this. And you know, you ever
Speaker 7: heard a club ed lag and you ever heard about
Speaker 7: the golfing Machine? And well, almost immediately he sold me
Speaker 7: a copy of the Golfing Machine and he had me
Speaker 7: read one l the machine concept right off the bat,
Speaker 7: and he would use little blurbs, favorite blurbs out of
Speaker 7: the golfing machine, amplify lag and drag, deliver it down
Speaker 7: a straight line delivery path, use a ferrol barrel power
Speaker 7: cumulator assembly.
Speaker 3: I mean it was. The golfing machine was to Ben
Speaker 3: what the Bible is to a Christian preacher.
Speaker 1: So to understand what the golfing machine is and why
Speaker 1: it inspired such devotion from Ben Doyle and eventually from
Speaker 1: Bobby Clampett, we have to backtrack a little and tell
Speaker 1: the story of Homer Kelly.
Speaker 9: My name is Scott Gummer, and I am the author
Speaker 9: of the book Homer Kelly's Golfing Machine, The Curious Quest
Speaker 9: that Solved Golf.
Speaker 1: Let me phrase the question this way. If Homer Kelly's
Speaker 1: life were a movie, where would that movie start?
Speaker 9: I'd probably start on the first day he played golf.
Speaker 9: It was nineteen thirty nine. He scored one hundred and
Speaker 9: sixteen and he didn't have much fun, so he quit playing,
Speaker 9: didn't play again for six months, and then some one
Speaker 9: asked him to go back out, and he went out
Speaker 9: and he shot seventy seven, which he could not understand.
Speaker 5: What happened that I was able to? What did I
Speaker 5: do differently?
Speaker 9: And he was just a very inquisitive guy by nature,
Speaker 9: and thus began his quest to figure out golf.
Speaker 4: Okay, well, Garrett, I am Joe Daniels. I am the
Speaker 4: owner of the Golfing Machine copyright, which I purchased from
Speaker 4: Missus Kelly back in two thousand and two.
Speaker 1: When I asked Joe Daniels to give me an idea
Speaker 1: of what Homer Kelly was like, he tells me two stories.
Speaker 1: The first is about how Homer installed a basement in
Speaker 1: the house where he and his wife lived in Seattle.
Speaker 1: He didn't hire somebody to do it.
Speaker 4: He dug it out himself, and in order to support it.
Speaker 4: What he did was Interstate five was being built through
Speaker 4: downtown Seattle, and so they probably had to knock down
Speaker 4: quite a few buildings. And all those buildings were made
Speaker 4: of bricks. So he went down, put a bunch of
Speaker 4: bricks in the back of his car, drove them home,
Speaker 4: took him out, went back, got some more, and those
Speaker 4: bricks are what he used to support his house when
Speaker 4: he dug out the basement.
Speaker 1: The second story is about how Homer learned to play piano.
Speaker 1: Not surprisingly, he taught himself.
Speaker 4: But it was all built upon the scales.
Speaker 1: So he didn't really play songs. He was all about
Speaker 1: the scales and.
Speaker 4: So very mechanical. Right, it has to be like this.
Speaker 4: So he definitely was a character that relied on his intellect,
Speaker 4: and his intellect always kind of moved to if you
Speaker 4: wield golfing machine words, the geometry and physics of things.
Speaker 1: And so when he set out to learn everything about
Speaker 1: the golf swing, he did so in a very Homer
Speaker 1: kellyish way. His first step was to visit some teaching
Speaker 1: pros in the Seattle area and ask if they could
Speaker 1: explain why he shot one sixteen in his first round
Speaker 1: and seventy seven in his next one. In other words,
Speaker 1: if they could explain one of the central mysteries of golf,
Speaker 1: why good players are sometimes bad and bad players are
Speaker 1: sometimes good. Whatever the prose told him, Homer didn't buy it.
Speaker 9: I think golf instruction then was very much like golf
Speaker 9: instruction is now. That a lot of people talk about
Speaker 9: the feel of golf, their field golfer, and that was
Speaker 9: not what Homer.
Speaker 5: That didn't compute in his scientific mind.
Speaker 1: So Homer just figured gotta do it myself.
Speaker 9: I just think the word quest is really appropriate. He
Speaker 9: just really felt like the other people that.
Speaker 5: Were teaching the games. The pros, the swing.
Speaker 9: Doctors and things like that didn't lack desire or sincerity.
Speaker 5: What Homer said is they lacked information.
Speaker 9: And one of the things that he said was all
Speaker 9: we need is a little definitive information.
Speaker 5: I think that's what drove him. It just took a
Speaker 5: really long time.
Speaker 1: Homer started gathering his information in the early forties, and
Speaker 1: he self published the first edition of his book, The
Speaker 1: Golfing Machine in nineteen sixty nine. Its subtitle was Geometric Golf,
Speaker 1: The Computer Age Approach, the Golfing Perfection. If you were
Speaker 1: to summarize the contents of the Golfing Machine, I mean, essentially,
Speaker 1: what that book contends and what it contains, what would
Speaker 1: you say, Actually.
Speaker 9: I find that to be a pretty easy question, and
Speaker 9: the answer is there is no one way. Unlike Jack Nicholas,
Speaker 9: whose book is called Golf My Way, Homer's book should
Speaker 9: be called Golf Your Way.
Speaker 1: Basically, the book breaks down the golf swing into a
Speaker 1: bunch of different components and variations, and it says, here,
Speaker 1: choose some of these pieces, assemble your own golfing machine
Speaker 1: and make sure it sends the ball where you wanted
Speaker 1: to go.
Speaker 4: If you're able to stand behind the golf ball, and
Speaker 4: he makes a statement, visualize what you want the golf
Speaker 4: ball to do, and then his words are set up
Speaker 4: the machine that creates that ball flight, then you can
Speaker 4: do it. And I think sometimes the golfing machine scares
Speaker 4: people because it has choices. It doesn't say you have
Speaker 4: to do this, only says you have to have a
Speaker 4: flat left wrist, club head lag clubheadlag pressure point, actually
Speaker 4: have a straight plane link three things. It shouldn't be
Speaker 4: so hard, should it.
Speaker 1: What can be hard is actually reading the book. Could
Speaker 1: you introduce yourself by name and what your relationship.
Speaker 10: Is to me, I'm Michelle Morrison and I am your wife.
Speaker 1: I would like you to read starting here four D
Speaker 1: zero release motions.
Speaker 3: This term refers to.
Speaker 1: The release of accumulators number two and number three, so
Speaker 1: is not a pattern.
Speaker 9: Homer's writing style was pretty I mean is it is
Speaker 9: effectively a textbook.
Speaker 4: The Golfing Machine book is written just like a text book.
Speaker 5: I don't I don't even know that he had an editor,
Speaker 5: I mean, except maybe his wife.
Speaker 4: You have to commit to reading the.
Speaker 3: Golf Uncocking four by dash three.
Speaker 7: And roll for.
Speaker 1: What are what are your reactions?
Speaker 3: To what you just read.
Speaker 8: It's like a space manual.
Speaker 9: I don't know, and yet working through it, I found
Speaker 9: it to be really satisfying. It's it's a little bit,
Speaker 9: I mean, it's a little bit, I guess in a
Speaker 9: weird way, like once you learn to conjugate verbs in
Speaker 9: a different language, then it kind of just puts you
Speaker 9: to a place where things start making sense.
Speaker 4: And so when someone says, you know, why did mister
Speaker 4: Kelly write it this way? I say to myself, well,
Speaker 4: I don't think there's a different way he could. It's
Speaker 4: how he thinks. And you either can glean from that
Speaker 4: or you cannot.
Speaker 1: But beneath Homer Kelly's dense technical pros and beneath his
Speaker 1: findings about the geometry and physics of the golf swing,
Speaker 1: there's a kind of philosophical conviction. And that's this golf
Speaker 1: is not an art. It's not a grand mystery. There's
Speaker 1: no spiritual component. There is just the machine, the golf swing.
Speaker 1: You build it and it either works or it doesn't.
Speaker 1: And if you shoot one sixteen one day and seventy
Speaker 1: seven the next, you won't find the reason and feel
Speaker 1: or character or the so called mental game. You'll find
Speaker 1: it in science. That's what Homer Kelly believed, and the
Speaker 1: question was whether the golf world would believe him. Season
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Speaker 1: Frida Egg twenty. That's Frida Egg two zero at precisionpro
Speaker 1: golf dot com. The Golfing Machine the first edition comes
Speaker 1: out in nineteen sixty nine. I believe, how would you
Speaker 1: characterize the initial public reception of this text, Well, there.
Speaker 5: Wasn't to me.
Speaker 9: Well, The Golfing Machine when it was published, Homer self
Speaker 9: published it, and he had a handful.
Speaker 5: Of books made, and you know, he.
Speaker 9: Tried to get people to have a look, have a listen.
Speaker 1: Homer even held a ten week class for local teaching pros.
Speaker 4: But let's face it, the professionals at the time that
Speaker 4: came to that class where all guys who basically would say, well,
Speaker 4: you got to learn how it feels, you got to
Speaker 4: go out there and hit a bazillion balls, and this
Speaker 4: is what you've got to do.
Speaker 1: So by the end of the class, most of the
Speaker 1: students were gone. Turns out, it wasn't easy for Homer
Speaker 1: Kelly to convince people that golf was a science and
Speaker 1: that science could solve golf.
Speaker 9: It's just very thick in terms of trying to process
Speaker 9: that information. And so really, as the visionary, what Homer
Speaker 9: needed was someone who could teach it. He needed a disciple,
Speaker 9: as it were, to take the message out.
Speaker 5: And he found that with a local pro named Ben Doyle.
Speaker 4: Ben was the head golf professional at Broadmoor in Seattle,
Speaker 4: And if you've never been to Broadmore, it's a little strange.
Speaker 4: So the entrance took the Broadboard Golf Club is on
Speaker 4: a road that dead ends at basically a park. So
Speaker 4: the public can go all the way to this park,
Speaker 4: just can't go and past the gates, right, So mister
Speaker 4: Kelly would sit in the parking lot and watch Ben teach,
Speaker 4: and so from there, when mister Kelly finally got the
Speaker 4: book published and brought it to Ben, you know, they
Speaker 4: spent six hours talking and mister Kelly explained how he
Speaker 4: traced the golf swing through all of these things. And
Speaker 4: you know, Ben being able to ask almost any question
Speaker 4: he wanted was probably the icing on the cake there.
Speaker 9: And we're not having this conversation if Homer doesn't connected Ben.
Speaker 5: I mean, that's just you know, Homer would have had
Speaker 5: a booked like a lot.
Speaker 9: Of people that self publish their books and that never
Speaker 9: just quite get elevated. Homer needed Ben to take the
Speaker 9: message to the masses. But to get to the next level,
Speaker 9: they needed someone who could actually execute.
Speaker 5: It and could do it. And you know that was
Speaker 5: Bobby Klantman.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 7: Ben was a very unique individual. First of all, he
Speaker 7: had a very unique way of delivering information. It was
Speaker 7: more about sharing with you the principle and then letting
Speaker 7: you discover it for yourself. We hit it off right away,
Speaker 7: and he saw me as a very inquisitive little kid
Speaker 7: that really wanted to learn. And he saw that I
Speaker 7: was coming out there every single day. It didn't matter rain, shine, snow,
Speaker 7: after school. I was there seven days a week working
Speaker 7: on my game.
Speaker 1: It's worth noting that Bobby was dealing with some tough
Speaker 1: things at this time. He was living with his mother
Speaker 1: and stepfather, and his biological father, Robert Clampett, had been
Speaker 1: part of his life, but Robert was an older man
Speaker 1: sixty six when Bobby was born, and in nineteen seventy
Speaker 1: two he died. Bobby was just twelve years old. It
Speaker 1: was about a year later that Bobby met Ben and
Speaker 1: they went into overdrive. On Bobby's golf.
Speaker 7: Swing, I'll never forget he wanted to teach me the
Speaker 7: principle of club ed lag, which is one of the
Speaker 7: real foremost principles in the golfing machine. They were building
Speaker 7: houses along the driving range at that time. This has
Speaker 7: been nineteen seventy three, but the lot next to where
Speaker 7: Ben was teaching was vacant and there was some very
Speaker 7: tall grass, probably foot to two feet tall grass. And
Speaker 7: he said to me, he says, I got a homework
Speaker 7: assignment for you.
Speaker 3: And what's that?
Speaker 7: He says, I want you to take your iron and
Speaker 7: I want you to go into that lot and I
Speaker 7: want you to swing in that lot and apply what
Speaker 7: I've just taught you about club ed light. I want
Speaker 7: you to swing in the long grass until all the
Speaker 7: grass is gone. And it's a a half acre lot,
Speaker 7: so plenty of grass out there. And it took me
Speaker 7: about two weeks of swinging and I got through all
Speaker 7: the grass and then he said, now I'm going to
Speaker 7: take your picture of your swing on the graph check camera.
Speaker 7: And it was quite a transformation where all of a
Speaker 7: sudden I had learned club ed leg and my handicap
Speaker 7: almost immediately went to like four, and then by the
Speaker 7: time I was fifteen, it was scratch and I won
Speaker 7: my first national junior tournament.
Speaker 4: Bobby was always going to be a tour player, no
Speaker 4: two ways about it. He is a talented golfer. What
Speaker 4: the golfing machine was able to do for him was
Speaker 4: what do they say, separate the wheat from the chaff
Speaker 4: or whatever it is that they say, right, And so
Speaker 4: he got the meat of the subject and just left
Speaker 4: all the other stuff that was irrelevant behind.
Speaker 3: Well, there were a lot of principles in there.
Speaker 7: I'm just thinking, you know, Law's cause there are no
Speaker 7: enigmas or mysteries to the game anymore. The ball goes
Speaker 7: exactly where you hit it every time. So in the game,
Speaker 7: if you ever hit an errant shot or a shot
Speaker 7: that didn't go where you wanted it to, you should
Speaker 7: never have to say, well, why did it go over there?
Speaker 7: If you ever say why did it go over there,
Speaker 7: you just don't understand Law's cause, and Ben was of
Speaker 7: the mindset that there's no mystery here, and he would
Speaker 7: constantly be reinforcing that in his teaching with me. Those
Speaker 7: were some of the principal moments of working with Ben
Speaker 7: and making some radically big changes in my swing. That
Speaker 7: took a while for them to solidify, but once they
Speaker 7: started to kick in and it's started to become more
Speaker 7: a part of me, my game started to hit into
Speaker 7: some pretty cool strides.
Speaker 5: Bobby Klampitt was one of the greatest amateur golfers ever.
Speaker 5: He was jet He was just really, really good.
Speaker 7: I think I knew my swing very well, and I
Speaker 7: knew that if I hit a poor shot, I could
Speaker 7: immediately diagnose why and fix it right on the spot.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 7: I think back to nineteen seventy eight in the Western Amateur,
Speaker 7: and I'd already won the cal State am and I'd
Speaker 7: already won numerous other.
Speaker 3: Amateur tournaments that summer, and I'm in.
Speaker 7: The finals of the Western am I'd missed already four
Speaker 7: fairways or five fairways, four fairways in a row. I
Speaker 7: was two down after six holes and just won the
Speaker 7: hard seventh hole with a par to pull one down,
Speaker 7: and I had the honor on the eight call, and
Speaker 7: they surprised. I was playing Mark Weeby from San Jose,
Speaker 7: and they surprised both of us. Moved the tee way
Speaker 7: forward on this short eighth hold where it was drivable.
Speaker 7: But it was a tight fairway maybe ten yard opening,
Speaker 7: and a river to the right and big trees and
Speaker 7: just terrible stuff to the left. And I hadn't hit
Speaker 7: a fairway yet, but I remember thinking about I kind
Speaker 7: of tuned into something that reminded me of why I
Speaker 7: was hitting the ball to the right, and so I
Speaker 7: made that tiny little adjustment, and I remember I hit
Speaker 7: this absolute perfect drive ten feet from the hole and
Speaker 7: ended up having Mark gave it to me for an
Speaker 7: eagle as he had already made par, and it tied
Speaker 7: the match and it went on to win. That was
Speaker 7: a real pivotal situation. But what enabled me to have
Speaker 7: the confidence after missing so many shots already? That was
Speaker 7: the thing that I think was the separator from me
Speaker 7: and the others playing amateur golf in college golf in
Speaker 7: those days, that I could do that get me so consistent.
Speaker 4: He was able to amass the information, filter it down
Speaker 4: into his procedure as we would call it, and make
Speaker 4: it work on the golf course in front of everyone.
Speaker 4: And there's the proof of the pudding right there. And
Speaker 4: so now all of a sudden, you can learn golf
Speaker 4: from a book.
Speaker 1: It was in the summer of nineteen seventy eight that
Speaker 1: Bobby clamp It became famous, and so did to a
Speaker 1: lesser extent, Ben Doyle, Homer Kelly and their system. That August,
Speaker 1: Golf World magazine ran a cover story called Bobby Clampett
Speaker 1: and the golfing Machine. Bobby told the reporter, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: be winning these tournaments if it weren't for that book. Someday,
Speaker 1: that book is going to change all the theories of swings.
Speaker 1: It's inevitable. He went on to say, it's the bible
Speaker 1: of golf. It's nothing to be laughed at. And the
Speaker 1: article concluded, don't worry about that, Bob, nobody's laughing now.
Speaker 1: That brings us to the eighty two Open Championship, when
Speaker 1: Bobby Clampett, the face of the golfing Machine, sticks his
Speaker 1: approach on the eighteenth hole at Royal Troon. He takes
Speaker 1: a five shot lead into the third round and seems
Speaker 1: like he's about to prove everything that he and Homer
Speaker 1: Kelly have been saying about the science of golf. That night,
Speaker 1: he calls Ben Doyle and tells him I might walk
Speaker 1: away with this tournament. I've done it before Saturday afternoon,
Speaker 1: the wins at Royal Troon have shifted so off the
Speaker 1: first tee, Bobby decides to go with less than driver.
Speaker 3: And I hit a perfect three.
Speaker 7: Arnd is laying up up the first heat down wind
Speaker 7: and hit in the middle of the fairway and it.
Speaker 3: Kicked forty yards left into the lip of a pop bunker.
Speaker 3: It's like, what's that all about? That is so weird.
Speaker 3: It doesn't happen.
Speaker 1: But he's able to refocus and on the fifth hole
Speaker 1: has a forty footer for birdie. The crowd roars, He
Speaker 1: pumps his fist. Bobby Clampitt has a seven shot lead
Speaker 1: at the Open and his golfing machine is in full
Speaker 1: flight on the international stage.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that was kind of fun.
Speaker 7: But then it was the very next hole that I
Speaker 7: got stuck in the pop bunker and couldn't get out.
Speaker 3: Fist pump was a little early.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, well, I mean getting to the sixth hole, right,
Speaker 1: that was that was the you know, if you're looking back,
Speaker 1: maybe the turning point, you know, what was the experience
Speaker 1: of that whole like for you?
Speaker 7: I mean, okay, I pulled the T shot maybe twelve
Speaker 7: yards left of my target. So it wasn't wasn't my
Speaker 7: best T shot, but it wasn't one that was, you know,
Speaker 7: off the charts, and nothing was really that bad about it.
Speaker 7: And I got up there and you know, I can
Speaker 7: hit sand wedge out of here. I just need to
Speaker 7: hit the ball up about sixty yards. If I can
Speaker 7: hit it sixty yards and I can reach the green
Speaker 7: in three, it was a part five, and if I
Speaker 7: can reach the green in three, I still might get
Speaker 7: on and be putting Birdie. So I grabbed my sandwich
Speaker 7: and I hit it and thought I hit it pretty good.
Speaker 7: But it just hit the top of the lip of
Speaker 7: the bunker and came back in. Now I got the
Speaker 7: same shot. I go, I know I can get it
Speaker 7: over the lip of that bunker. So I did it again.
Speaker 7: Now I'm like, okay, now I know I can't get
Speaker 7: it over the lip of the bunker.
Speaker 3: Now just hit it out sideways. So I hit it
Speaker 3: out sideways.
Speaker 7: And then I thought, all right, now, now if I
Speaker 7: really hit a big three wood, I might be able
Speaker 7: to get it to the front edge. I'm really going
Speaker 7: to jump on this one, and I duck hooked it
Speaker 7: over into the gunk that's going left.
Speaker 10: Oh deer, oh, deer, Oh deer clatters through the crowd
Speaker 10: and plump it in all sorts.
Speaker 5: Of trumble.
Speaker 3: And ended up with a triple bogey.
Speaker 1: After Bobby holds out, he turns, looks back at roll
Speaker 1: Truan's sixth hole and sticks out his tongue.
Speaker 3: That's nobody's ever mentioned that, but I do remember doing that,
Speaker 3: and I would do that sometimes out of battle. I
Speaker 3: just say, I don't like you anymore. Yeah, onto the
Speaker 3: next bell.
Speaker 1: But the bad shots and the bad bounces keep coming.
Speaker 1: The tenth hole is especially puzzling. The day before, Bobby
Speaker 1: hit a perfect three iron to three feet. Today he
Speaker 1: hits what feels like the same shot with the same club,
Speaker 1: but this time it comes up short and he makes bogie.
Speaker 7: So before you know when I shoot seventy eight six
Speaker 7: over that day and the next day it was more
Speaker 7: of the same kind of stuff. I was just a
Speaker 7: little bit off, not quite as sharp, tee to Green
Speaker 7: and Boki buttter, and this thing's not going my way.
Speaker 1: He finishes in a tie for tenth, four shots behind
Speaker 1: the winner, Tom Watson. The way Bobby tells it, he
Speaker 1: pouts for a bit then moves on. A month later,
Speaker 1: he wins his first PGA Tour event, the Southern Open,
Speaker 1: and by all indications, his career is moving in the
Speaker 1: right direction. But his experience at the eighty two Open
Speaker 1: does plant a seed of doubt about his game. Obviously,
Speaker 1: his weekend performance wasn't great. But he also keeps thinking
Speaker 1: about the practice rounds He played it true.
Speaker 7: Tuesday, I shot sixty five in a practice room playing
Speaker 7: with Gary Player and Johnny Miller, and then Wednesday I
Speaker 7: went out and shut seventy five. And I was going
Speaker 7: through a period where my game was more inconsistent, more
Speaker 7: it's like just a little something off, and man, it
Speaker 7: could be ten shots from one day to the next,
Speaker 7: and it was driving me crazy because it was like,
Speaker 7: it's just not that far off. How can it be?
Speaker 7: What's going on there?
Speaker 1: So Bobby finds himself struggling with the same problem, the
Speaker 1: same mystery that started Homer Kelly on his quest forty
Speaker 1: years earlier, how can I play so well on Tuesday
Speaker 1: and so poorly on Wednesday?
Speaker 3: So it led me down some more roads to discovery
Speaker 3: of how can I find a swing that isn't quite
Speaker 3: so temperamental? Maybe?
Speaker 7: And I think that started, unfortunately kind of a rabbit
Speaker 7: hole for me.
Speaker 1: Nineteen eighty three ended up being a low point, not
Speaker 1: just for Bobby Klampett, but for the whole golfing machine enterprise,
Speaker 1: and it really was an enterprise. At that point. Ben
Speaker 1: Doyle had a growing stable of students. Homer Kelly had
Speaker 1: set up a process for educating and authorizing instructors, but
Speaker 1: in eighty three, Homer Kelly, who was seventy five years
Speaker 1: old by then, had a falling out with Ben Doyle.
Speaker 1: Joe Daniels isn't totally sure why.
Speaker 4: The first and utmost honest thing to say is I
Speaker 4: wasn't there, and I need to make that completely clear.
Speaker 4: So I really am not aware of exactly what created
Speaker 4: that issue. There was one. I think it unfortunate, Ben
Speaker 4: being angry with Homer, Homer being disappointed in Ben. Just
Speaker 4: both sides lost. There was no winner in that.
Speaker 1: And then in the middle of a seminar with the
Speaker 1: Georgia PGA, Homer Kelly collapsed and died of a heart attack.
Speaker 1: Bobby couldn't go to his funeral because he had to
Speaker 1: be in Australia, where he was battling with his suddenly
Speaker 1: defective golf swing. In the eighty three season, Bobby didn't
Speaker 1: finish in the top ten once and ultimately he decided
Speaker 1: to part ways with Ben Doyle.
Speaker 7: I became influenced and was led to believe that if
Speaker 7: I totally changed my swing, I wouldn't have some of
Speaker 7: these temperamental issues.
Speaker 3: With my swing, so to speak.
Speaker 7: And I went to four different coaches, all big name coaches,
Speaker 7: and they're all great and wanting to work with me.
Speaker 7: But the thing that they all said, well, basically, your
Speaker 7: swing sucks.
Speaker 3: And we got to make some major changes.
Speaker 7: And I had one say to me, I have more
Speaker 7: moving parts in an erector set, and another one say
Speaker 7: to me, you better forget about anything you've ever learned
Speaker 7: about the game and start all over.
Speaker 1: One of these coaches, in fact, the one who made
Speaker 1: the erector set comment, was Jimmy Ballard. Hey, Garret, Hi, Joe,
Speaker 1: how are you sorry? Jimmy, how are you doing? I
Speaker 1: was just talking to it, Joe, my bad. I do
Speaker 1: that all the time, so forgive me. Jimmy has worked with,
Speaker 1: among others, how Sutton, Curtis Strange, Sandy Lyle, Sabby Biasteros,
Speaker 1: and for one day, Bobby Clamping.
Speaker 2: I got a phone call from Bobby's mother and stepfather.
Speaker 2: He was coming to play at Derryle and they told
Speaker 2: me that they would like for me to take a
Speaker 2: look at him and work with you.
Speaker 1: It was tournament week at Dral, so a bunch of
Speaker 1: Jimmy's players were out there.
Speaker 2: I was working with one of the players at the time,
Speaker 2: and I told him go ahead and get Bobby filmed
Speaker 2: and I'll be ready in about fifteen or twenty minutes. Well,
Speaker 2: I waited a little while. After I'd finished, they still
Speaker 2: didn't come into the viewing room, so I sent for him,
Speaker 2: and they came on in. And the reason they were
Speaker 2: so long, my assistant told me. He said, the reason
Speaker 2: we was so long, He said, he topped the first
Speaker 2: five or six god balls, just topped them with a
Speaker 2: five iron.
Speaker 1: The conversation between Jimmy and Bobby quickly turned to the
Speaker 1: golfing machine.
Speaker 2: So I said, well, what is it you think is
Speaker 2: right about? And he starts telling me all this stuff,
Speaker 2: and finally I just said, look, Bobby, wait a minute.
Speaker 2: If you're right and all this you're telling me is correct,
Speaker 2: why did you top five or six fire irons out
Speaker 2: there well ago, well before you hit one in the air.
Speaker 2: And there was no answer.
Speaker 1: Eventually, as Jimmy remembers it, Bobby walked out and they
Speaker 1: never worked together again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, here's the thing about the golfing machine.
Speaker 2: The proofs in the eating of the pie of the
Speaker 2: golf machine that's been around for a long time. How
Speaker 2: many majors have been one with anybody said I'm working
Speaker 2: on the golf machine.
Speaker 1: I mean how many?
Speaker 2: I have over fifteen major winners. If you doubt the
Speaker 2: TPC and it worked, I'll be I found my players.
Speaker 2: I give them one and maybe two thoughts, and the
Speaker 2: one thought would back the backsling in a finish. But
Speaker 2: you can't give them two backswing thoughts.
Speaker 4: How could you do that?
Speaker 2: You can't take that quick. It's when the club one
Speaker 2: hundred miles an hour, So you can't go out there
Speaker 2: with all these I'm going to do this and this
Speaker 2: and this and doctor as across the piece. That's what
Speaker 2: did appear to me the golf machine made clamp it
Speaker 2: du and that's when he got mechanical, and that's when
Speaker 2: he could He couldn't get through the ball at all.
Speaker 1: What would you say to people who at this time
Speaker 1: were blaming the golfing machine for your struggles?
Speaker 7: Yeah, I guess that's that would be like you're in
Speaker 7: journalism now, so you write articles, right, Yeah, that would
Speaker 7: be like somebody saying you're two into the alphabet.
Speaker 1: You're so Bobby ended up coming back to Homer Kelly's ideas,
Speaker 1: and while he was never again a consistent factor on
Speaker 1: the PGA Tour. He did have some good seasons on
Speaker 1: the senior circuit. Today, he's a teacher himself, and he
Speaker 1: has a book called The Impact Zone, which takes a
Speaker 1: lot of inspiration from the golfing machine. Bobby's writing is
Speaker 1: clearer than Homer's, but the principles are basically the same.
Speaker 1: You can do it in a bunch of different ways.
Speaker 1: Impact is what matters, and there's no mystery in the
Speaker 1: golf swing. The ball goes where the club sends it.
Speaker 1: So as far as Bobby's concerned, his problem in the
Speaker 1: eighties wasn't the golfing machine. It was going away from
Speaker 1: the golfing machine.
Speaker 7: I mean, the hindsight was there's kind of an old adage,
Speaker 7: if it's not broke, don't try to fix it. And
Speaker 7: probably would never have been a number one in the
Speaker 7: world player with my old game and old swing, but
Speaker 7: I would have won a lot more than one tournament
Speaker 7: on the PGA Tour.
Speaker 3: I'm convinced to that.
Speaker 9: It would have been great for Bobby, and it would
Speaker 9: have been great for the golfing machine, and it would
Speaker 9: have been great for Homer.
Speaker 5: And Ben either. If Bobby had gone on to the kind.
Speaker 9: Of career that was expected, or if there were others
Speaker 9: along the way in that time. I mean, if there
Speaker 9: have been four or five people that were golfing machine advocates,
Speaker 9: that'd have been different. But there was Bobby and it
Speaker 9: didn't work out. You know, we're not robots.
Speaker 5: And therein lies the thing that.
Speaker 9: Would always fail with the golfing machine or with any
Speaker 9: golf instruction method, is that at some point an infallible
Speaker 9: way of doing things is being executed by the most
Speaker 9: flawed or as it were.
Speaker 5: It's just, you know, we're.
Speaker 9: Human and science like this can be perfect in theory.
Speaker 5: And we don't live in theory. We live in fractics.
Speaker 1: As Bobby Klampitt's playing her waned, so did the reputation
Speaker 1: of Homer Kelly's work. But the golfing machine always had
Speaker 1: its advocates, including Steve Elkington, a major champion who won
Speaker 1: ten times on the PGA Tour. In these days, more
Speaker 1: and more golfers and golf instructors seem to have Homer
Speaker 1: Kelly's name on the tip of their tongues. Rice in
Speaker 1: Deshambo says the golfing machine changed his life I mean,
Speaker 1: he says a lot of things, but that's one of them.
Speaker 1: So for long time golfing machine people, the twenty first
Speaker 1: century feels something like redemption. They say, look at how science, technology,
Speaker 1: and data have seeped into just about every aspect of
Speaker 1: the game, from fitness to course management. You could argue,
Speaker 1: and many do, that this is the golfing machine era
Speaker 1: and Homer Kelly just missed it by a couple of decades.
Speaker 1: But there are also those who insist that there's still
Speaker 1: room from mystery in golf, that the game will always
Speaker 1: be primarily in art. And the conflict between these two
Speaker 1: points of view science versus art is what the writer
Speaker 1: Bret sir Gallis discusses in his book Golf's Holy War, which.
Speaker 11: Came out in May of twenty twenty on Simon and Schuster.
Speaker 1: And the big question for many of us is what
Speaker 1: to take from both sides, what to learn from science
Speaker 1: and what to set aside for art.
Speaker 11: It's kind of a question that is inside golf as
Speaker 11: well as outside. I mean, the world in general is
Speaker 11: kind of going through this revolution of information and data
Speaker 11: that's at our fingertips, and.
Speaker 3: How do we deal with it all?
Speaker 11: How do we reconcile it with the world that we
Speaker 11: live in and use it for our betterment. As kind
Speaker 11: of a really big question, and it's one that's playing
Speaker 11: out in golf and rather dramatic terms.
Speaker 1: Just consider the job of a twenty first century golf instructor.
Speaker 1: Be right for this professional to ignore the recent science
Speaker 1: of the golf swing. As Ben Doyle like to say,
Speaker 1: truth is truth.
Speaker 11: They say the numbers don't lie, right, these are indisputable,
Speaker 11: But how do you create those numbers?
Speaker 3: How do you do it?
Speaker 11: How do you change a complex motor pattern? And the
Speaker 11: more we've learned about learning, the more neuroscience has come
Speaker 11: in and explained how we create new memories and how
Speaker 11: we change our patterns, it's really not through explicit information.
Speaker 11: So whereas the golfing machine is, here is the most
Speaker 11: it is the most explicit book possible because it is
Speaker 11: nothing but facts and information and numbers. But the way
Speaker 11: our brain works, the way we learn as human beings,
Speaker 11: is implicitly right. So when you start your backswing, how
Speaker 11: do you start your backswing? You have no idea how
Speaker 11: you start your backswing none, You have no idea how
Speaker 11: you make your fingers move.
Speaker 3: And if you map your brain.
Speaker 11: Maybe you can explain the pathways that enable you to move,
Speaker 11: but you don't know how you just started that process. So,
Speaker 11: I mean, once you really think about it, it's very
Speaker 11: difficult to change something that you don't quite understand.
Speaker 1: In other words, how do we do what the science
Speaker 1: tells us to do? There might be some mystery in that,
Speaker 1: maybe some small space for art. And Brett tells me
Speaker 1: that this is the problem that a golf instructor and
Speaker 1: named Mike Hebron ran up against. Hebron is a big
Speaker 1: golfing machine guy, and he was eager to impart all
Speaker 1: of Homer Kelly's information to his students, and.
Speaker 11: Then he ran into students who weren't getting better. Like
Speaker 11: this happens to every Almost every teacher I talked to
Speaker 11: had the same experience where they were teaching. They thought
Speaker 11: they knew all, they thought they knew everything, and then
Speaker 11: some students weren't getting better, and the ones that really
Speaker 11: care said why.
Speaker 1: So Hebron began to take classes about how people learn.
Speaker 1: He remained a science driven instructor, but he struck a
Speaker 1: deal with the art of teaching.
Speaker 11: Now when he teaches, he has all of the background
Speaker 11: of the golfing machine. He knows that stuff as well
Speaker 11: as anybody on the planet, and he never mentions it
Speaker 11: to a student.
Speaker 3: Ever.
Speaker 11: He has them playing games because he understands that that's
Speaker 11: how you learn.
Speaker 1: Essentially, Mike Hebron found his own way of living peacefully
Speaker 1: within golf's holy war. Bobby Clampett has a story he
Speaker 1: likes to tell that I think encompasses a lot of
Speaker 1: what we're talking about here. It was nineteen seventy nine
Speaker 1: and Bobby, at the height of his amateur career, had
Speaker 1: qualified for his first Masters and the aspiring golf scientist
Speaker 1: was paired with one of golf's great artists, sixty eight
Speaker 1: year old Sam Snead.
Speaker 7: Pretty cool for an eighteen year old kid to get
Speaker 7: paired with the man who in the first golf book
Speaker 7: I picked up was how to Play Golf by Sam Snead,
Speaker 7: And so now I get to play with him.
Speaker 1: On Friday, they get three holes into their second.
Speaker 7: Round and we had a thunderstorm came in at Augusta
Speaker 7: National and we had to all go back to the
Speaker 7: clubhouse and he said, kid, come with me. So we
Speaker 7: went into the dining room and we sat down for
Speaker 7: four hours just the two of us and talked. It
Speaker 7: was like one of the its, like he was becoming
Speaker 7: my grandfather. We just sat there and talked and had
Speaker 7: a great time. Then they called us back out on
Speaker 7: the course after a four hour delay. We went back
Speaker 7: out and we get to the fifteenth hole and it's
Speaker 7: really getting dark. It's like eight fifteen and it's dark.
Speaker 7: And I said, I called him, mister Sneaed and I said,
Speaker 7: mister Sneed, you think we're still supposed to be playing
Speaker 7: and as dark as is. He said, keep on playing, son.
Speaker 7: You don't stop playing until they come get you.
Speaker 3: So we get to the sixteenth hole and it's really dark.
Speaker 3: At sixteen.
Speaker 7: You can barely make out the flag stick, almost a
Speaker 7: little reflection on the water, but it's dark. I played
Speaker 7: sixteen and we're heading to seventeen and I said, mister Sneed, really,
Speaker 7: I mean, I've never played in this kind.
Speaker 3: Of darkness before. He said, keep on playing, son.
Speaker 1: They finished seventeen, and finally some AUGUSTA members come get them.
Speaker 10: It's too dark to play here at the Masters. We're
Speaker 10: going to call play for the day and said, no kidding,
Speaker 10: So play Ruzoom at eight am tomorrow morning.
Speaker 7: So I spend the night thinking about the eighteenth hole,
Speaker 7: and I figure that I have to par eighteen to
Speaker 7: make the cut. The cut's already been determined. I'm the
Speaker 7: last group. Everybody knows the cut's going to be at
Speaker 7: one over, and I'm one over.
Speaker 1: Bobby comes up with a plan for how he's going
Speaker 1: to play the eighteenth hole. He'll hit three wood off
Speaker 1: the tee, six iron into the green. So in the morning,
Speaker 1: on the driving range, all he practices are three woods
Speaker 1: and six irons. But then as he's walking down the
Speaker 1: hill towards the eighteenth tee, he sees someone in the distance.
Speaker 1: Sam Snead is on the back of the tee warming
Speaker 1: up by hitting balls toward Rays Creek with that famous
Speaker 1: dynamic flowing golf swing, the swing that Bobby had tried
Speaker 1: to mimic as a kid using Sneed's book.
Speaker 7: As I'm walking down and watching him, I suddenly realized.
Speaker 7: And why I didn't think about this before? I don't
Speaker 7: know that every time I had hit three with off
Speaker 7: the tee and the practice runs, I bogied the hole.
Speaker 7: And so I asked my caddy, I said, what do
Speaker 7: you think?
Speaker 3: He says, I don't know.
Speaker 7: What do you feel like I thought about it for
Speaker 7: a moment and I got down there on the tee
Speaker 7: and I said, give me the driver, and I hit
Speaker 7: this little perfect butter cut up with the driver between
Speaker 7: the bunkers and an A and air at about fifteen
Speaker 7: feet and made it for Birdie to make the cut
Speaker 7: in my first Master.
Speaker 3: So that was pretty fun.
Speaker 1: Today we might say that driver is the statistically correct play,
Speaker 1: that the data supports it right, and it probably does.
Speaker 1: But for Bobby, in that moment, it seems like it
Speaker 1: was an intuitive choice, unlocked by something about Sam Sneed's
Speaker 1: golf swing, maybe something to do with feeling and memory,
Speaker 1: maybe something that science can't really explain. When I run
Speaker 1: this by Brett Sergallis, he's reminded of another golf instructor.
Speaker 1: He met someone who is very technically minded for a
Speaker 1: long time, but then suddenly veered in the opposite direction.
Speaker 11: And the way he explained it to me was, there
Speaker 11: are some things that can't be broken down into sequences.
Speaker 11: So the golf swing is not a sequence of photos.
Speaker 11: There's something intrinsic about the motion that can't be stopped.
Speaker 11: It's like stopping a stream. He said, yeah, And so
Speaker 11: you can pick it apart in pieces and show where
Speaker 11: things are. But that piece doesn't exist without the piece
Speaker 11: before it and the piece after it. So if that
Speaker 11: was me watching have Snee hit balls in the raised Creek,
Speaker 11: I would probably be envious of his tempo.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 11: You know, it's like watching an artist at work. It's like,
Speaker 11: could you imagine like watching Michelangelo paint. You see it happening,
Speaker 11: and it's so much more than each line, each brushstroke
Speaker 11: of Michelangelo's right, it's the whole. It's what's happening at
Speaker 11: that moment. And there's something fluid about that. There's something
Speaker 11: stream like about it where you can't stop it. It's
Speaker 11: just the beauty is in its completeness.
Speaker 1: This episode of Friday Stories was produced and hosted by
Speaker 1: me Garrett Morrison. It was mixed and engineered by Cameron
Speaker 1: Hurtis and we had transcript help from Meg Atkins. Lots
Speaker 1: of books mentioned in this episode. We have Golf's Holy
Speaker 1: War by Brent Sergallis, The Impact Zone by Bobby Klampett,
Speaker 1: and Homer Kelly's Golfing Machine by Scott Dummer, and of
Speaker 1: course the Golfing Machine itself by Homer Kelly himself. Thanks
Speaker 1: as well to Joe Daniels, Jimmy Ballard, and George Pepper.
Speaker 1: By the way, if you stick around after this music
Speaker 1: fades out, we do have a little extra tidbit from George.
Speaker 1: We'd love to know what you think of Friday Stories,
Speaker 1: so feel free to reach out on Twitter or Instagram
Speaker 1: or leave a rating and review on iTunes. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think if you go back and look at
Speaker 6: the history of the game, particularly at the highest levels,
Speaker 6: many of the best players can be pretty well classified
Speaker 6: as either mechanics or magicians. And if you look back
Speaker 6: as far back as Harry Varden, he was very much mechanic.
Speaker 6: He wrote this book, invented Varden grip. He had very
Speaker 6: precise ways of very precise ball striker. A few years later,
Speaker 6: the main one of the main players is Walter Hagen.
Speaker 6: He's a very much magician. He said, I expect to
Speaker 6: miss five or six shots every round, and he went
Speaker 6: would hit a lot of shots into the rob and
Speaker 6: blasted out further forward. Bobby Jones a very cerebral, mechanical
Speaker 6: golfer taught by Stuart Maiden's very specific swing, and then
Speaker 6: he went on himself to give off some very precise
Speaker 6: lesson going forward from him, Sam Snead, another magician, barefoot
Speaker 6: boy and with natural talent, double jointed, did everything naturally.
Speaker 6: The other side of Snead was of course Hogan, perhaps
Speaker 6: the ultimate mechanic, and you know Palmer magician Nicholas a mechanic.
Speaker 6: After that, it gets a little muddled. I think Tiger
Speaker 6: had it all, but Bobby interestingly had the kind of
Speaker 6: the spirit of a magician and the work ethic of
Speaker 6: a mechanic, and maybe it didn't suit him.
Speaker 2: I don't know.