WEBVTT - Do horses hate running?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Manny, I'm Noah.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is Devin and this is no such thing.

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<v Speaker 2>The show where we settle our dumb arguments in yours

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<v Speaker 2>by actually doing the research. On today's episode, we settle

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<v Speaker 2>on an argument we've been having for nearly ten years.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's kind of insane to say that horses

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<v Speaker 1>don't like to run.

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<v Speaker 3>Most people that have a set perception about anything haven't

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<v Speaker 3>spent very much time observing with any sort of open curiosity.

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<v Speaker 4>So good timing, the snakes are not yet.

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<v Speaker 5>Hi sound.

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<v Speaker 6>No, there's no such thing such thing.

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<v Speaker 2>So I grew up in a suburb in New Jersey,

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<v Speaker 2>and like most suburbs in the Northeast, there's not much

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<v Speaker 2>to do. So we spend a lot of time going

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<v Speaker 2>back and forth to the mall at one point actually

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<v Speaker 2>work at the mall, And to avoid a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>the traffic on the main roads, we would take the

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<v Speaker 2>back roads. And on these back roads there were a

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<v Speaker 2>ton of horse farms, so we'd often be driving back

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<v Speaker 2>and forth past horses, and I start to notice, every

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<v Speaker 2>single time we would drive past these horse farms, they

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<v Speaker 2>were never running.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't see, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>To that point, especially, I'd not seen a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>horses in my life, you know, not up close, but

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<v Speaker 2>we see all these pictures, all this what I'll call

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<v Speaker 2>propaganda as children of horses running, being majestic. And I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, how come every time when there are no

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<v Speaker 2>people around on this farm, the horses are just standing still,

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<v Speaker 2>mostly eating, not really moving around much at all, not even.

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<v Speaker 7>A trot, no gallops.

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<v Speaker 4>No barely a galls up. They're just standing there, right.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm like, if I were to put a group,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and this is when they're together, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the families together is rare. I would see one horse alone.

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<v Speaker 2>Usually there's two or three of them, and what do

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<v Speaker 2>you call it?

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<v Speaker 4>A pen? I don't know what you call those things?

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<v Speaker 7>Like, yeah, I don't know.

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<v Speaker 4>Fenced in air.

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<v Speaker 2>This is how much I know about horse, right, And

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, if I have that same area and

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<v Speaker 2>I put three dogs at some point from all these trips,

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<v Speaker 2>I would see those dogs running. And to this day,

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<v Speaker 2>I have never seen horses run in person without humans

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<v Speaker 2>telling them to do it.

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<v Speaker 7>Or forcing them to do it, So do it, okay?

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<v Speaker 2>So then I started to think do horse is even

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<v Speaker 2>like running? Like I don't think horses like to run

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<v Speaker 2>because if they like to run, and we'd be running

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<v Speaker 2>when humans weren't around.

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<v Speaker 4>I guess I never really said this.

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<v Speaker 2>Out loud until we started working together, because there's always

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<v Speaker 2>been something that's percolating in my mind. Yeah, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>if we're getting to our dumb arguments and have our

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<v Speaker 2>dumb conversations. And I brought it up to both of

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<v Speaker 2>you one day and I was like, actually, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>think horses like to run.

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<v Speaker 1>So now all of our listeners are in the exact

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<v Speaker 1>same position that no, right after you, but.

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<v Speaker 2>Think God silent, But think about it. Think about it.

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<v Speaker 2>When have you seen horses run right in person? We're

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<v Speaker 2>gonna get later. We will get to the videos, the documentaries,

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<v Speaker 2>the movies. Yeah, so called, I got lots to say

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<v Speaker 2>about that. But just when in your life have you

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<v Speaker 2>just seen a horse just going for it, like sprinting,

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<v Speaker 2>just like I'm running.

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<v Speaker 7>Oh, I like this, I can't say I have.

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<v Speaker 8>I've also, you know, like you, I haven't really been

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<v Speaker 8>around the horses.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I guess it's tough for me to recall because I

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<v Speaker 1>haven't seen any horses really.

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<v Speaker 2>So neither one of you have seen horses on a

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<v Speaker 2>farm running on their own no, no, okay, I think

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<v Speaker 2>we can maybe end the podcast. Yeah, so I guess

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<v Speaker 2>maybe I should just say what, like to restate my

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<v Speaker 2>opinion is, I don't think horses like to run. I

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<v Speaker 2>think horses are good at running. I think they're majestic creatures.

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<v Speaker 2>They're very strong, they're very powerful. They look beautiful running.

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<v Speaker 2>But I don't think like in terms of like if

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<v Speaker 2>horses got to decide whether or not they would like

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<v Speaker 2>to run.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't think most horses they would never run running.

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<v Speaker 7>They would never run.

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<v Speaker 2>But this is just based on what I've seen, and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, you know, everyone that I've talked to, I

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<v Speaker 2>haven't talked to anyone who's said they've seen horses run

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<v Speaker 2>for fun and said, I don't know very many horse people.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't spend a lot of time with a lot

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<v Speaker 4>of horse people. But as a casual observer.

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<v Speaker 2>Look, that's why I bring up the dog example, right,

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<v Speaker 2>because even if something man, he doesn't really fuck with dogs.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, man, he han't seen a dog run.

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<v Speaker 7>I've seen them run all the time. The dog example

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<v Speaker 7>is pretty powerful. I don't remember this one.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And it's that usually dogs running no human interaction.

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<v Speaker 4>You go to a dog park, all the humans. None

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<v Speaker 4>of the humans are moving. The dogs are going.

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<v Speaker 8>Off, yeah, I mean the dogs they have you know,

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<v Speaker 8>really fast bursts of energy. I wonder if horses on

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<v Speaker 8>their own might do that, you know, And we're just

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<v Speaker 8>kind of about it.

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<v Speaker 2>Like I have not seen it, not once, but like

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<v Speaker 2>so I guess I think, yeah, where do we all

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<v Speaker 2>stand on this?

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's kind of insane to say that horses

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<v Speaker 1>don't like to run.

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<v Speaker 2>I think, Okay, so my initial initial my initial prompt

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<v Speaker 2>was horses hate running, which is I that's a little strong.

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<v Speaker 2>I am a little wrong, but sometimes you gotta ge

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<v Speaker 2>people's attention.

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<v Speaker 4>You know. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I think my initial kind of reaction to this is

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<v Speaker 1>I would imagine that, like humans, some horses might like running,

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<v Speaker 1>some might not.

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<v Speaker 7>I don't like running.

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<v Speaker 1>I'll do it for exercise, but there are some people

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<v Speaker 1>who do enjoy running, so I will. I think my

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<v Speaker 1>initial reaction would just to be that it's probably similar

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<v Speaker 1>to and even so that's still a very small portion

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<v Speaker 1>of what you do if you're a runner.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, that's true.

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<v Speaker 8>So it's like I mean thinking, like, you know, you

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<v Speaker 8>you watch like a nature documentary, and we'll talk about

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<v Speaker 8>documentaries more.

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<v Speaker 4>Especially but I'm kind of saying that.

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<v Speaker 8>But my point is that you only see kind of

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<v Speaker 8>the extreme bits in those where you're not seeing most

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<v Speaker 8>most of life. And this goes for humans as well

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<v Speaker 8>as animals. Is pretty much doing nothing and then there's

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<v Speaker 8>to him moments of extreme activity happening.

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<v Speaker 7>You know.

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<v Speaker 8>What I mean is like you watch physically documentary and

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<v Speaker 8>it's like, okay, you see the the predator attacking.

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<v Speaker 7>Yeah, most of the time, these animals are just sitting

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<v Speaker 7>around drinking water. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 8>So I kind of view that similarly to the the

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<v Speaker 8>running where it's like, yeah, we'll run for five minutes,

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<v Speaker 8>you know, kind of get our little moves on, and

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<v Speaker 8>then yeah, we're just gonna chill out eat. Like why

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<v Speaker 8>would we especially on a farm in the back roads. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 8>there's not much going on, so yeah, we're just gonna chill.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 7>I think we front it around early in the morning,

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<v Speaker 7>you know, before the cars are coming back.

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<v Speaker 1>I think what's interesting about this question is that it

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<v Speaker 1>is true that growing up, we are kind of led

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<v Speaker 1>to believe that, like horses are running all the time.

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<v Speaker 9>All the time, ride like the wind, the bull's eye,

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<v Speaker 9>horses like.

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<v Speaker 4>You run, the horses like you run the horses like

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<v Speaker 4>to run.

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<v Speaker 2>Have you ever seen a video image of a horse

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<v Speaker 2>not running?

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<v Speaker 7>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>Like, right now, I'm gonna type horse into Yeah, it's

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<v Speaker 1>the default those into Google, and the immediately the first horse.

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<v Speaker 4>Is a horse is spounting, right.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's kind of interesting because it's with other animals.

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<v Speaker 4>But I'd say outside of like.

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<v Speaker 7>A cheetah, yeah, I was gonna see cheatah.

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<v Speaker 2>You know cheetah because we love to talk about how

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<v Speaker 2>fast they are, so yeah, but those images we're gonna

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<v Speaker 2>see any other animals, just.

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<v Speaker 7>Like we love to talk about it.

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<v Speaker 4>Love do we not?

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<v Speaker 1>Do we at When I was in middle school, I

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<v Speaker 1>was talking a lot about how fast cheetahs were.

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<v Speaker 2>Insane, But we are fed this. Horses run, run, run, run,

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<v Speaker 2>And I think part of it, part of it, I

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<v Speaker 2>think is innocent, and that horses are very good at running.

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<v Speaker 2>There they're you know, someone say, built to run. But

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<v Speaker 2>I think part of it too is that from humans

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<v Speaker 2>very first interactions with horses, we like to make them

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<v Speaker 2>do shit, whether that's pulling things, racing, racing, and in

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<v Speaker 2>order for us to feel better about making them do

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<v Speaker 2>that stuff, even just transit like yep, from one place

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<v Speaker 2>to the next, right, that's a lot harder to do

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<v Speaker 2>if in your mind you're thinking maybe this animal actually

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't like doing this.

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<v Speaker 1>So you asked this question earlier. Have you ever seen

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<v Speaker 1>a horse running and in person? We haven't.

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<v Speaker 7>But there's you know, countless footage.

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<v Speaker 4>Of this footage. So yeah, let's talk about the footage.

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<v Speaker 1>So what do you think is happening about the horses

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<v Speaker 1>that are running in the footage?

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<v Speaker 4>Okay, what type of footage be talking about here? Because

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<v Speaker 4>there's just.

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<v Speaker 7>Being a field gallopy.

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<v Speaker 2>Usually where let's think about this, right, beautiful, majestic, the

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<v Speaker 2>sun sun setting. What is usually the angle we see

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<v Speaker 2>of these horses is it? Is it down below a

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<v Speaker 2>bird's eye view point of view?

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<v Speaker 4>Wow?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, so what we're we got a bird's eye view

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<v Speaker 2>of the horses a right, So usually we get bird's

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<v Speaker 2>eye views of things, especially horses out in the wild

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<v Speaker 2>wearing something I like to call a helicopter, Right, you

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<v Speaker 2>like to call them that?

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<v Speaker 8>Okay, I'm following them.

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<v Speaker 4>Let me excuse this. Helicopters quiet?

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<v Speaker 6>No?

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<v Speaker 2>Are those quiet machines? Can a helicopter just pull up

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<v Speaker 2>here real quick? And no one noticed that a helicopter's outside?

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<v Speaker 4>No, they're really loud.

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<v Speaker 7>So you're saying the horses are running because they're.

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<v Speaker 4>Horses are easily spooked. That's like the everyone knows that.

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<v Speaker 7>Probably the second fact we know, Yeah, horses are.

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<v Speaker 4>You ever see the horses out there? Okay?

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<v Speaker 2>I have been to a horse show before. Once again,

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<v Speaker 2>none of the horses doing anything. But besides when that

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<v Speaker 2>people are making them do they're there? But you know

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<v Speaker 2>to some horses they have the blinders on because they

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<v Speaker 2>can't see something to the side, or they're lose their

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<v Speaker 2>damn mind.

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<v Speaker 4>M okay.

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<v Speaker 2>So, and you got to think about horses in a

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<v Speaker 2>wild survival. If something is coming, if a threat, a

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<v Speaker 2>predator is coming. M hm, you, that's when you gotta run.

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<v Speaker 5>Go right.

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<v Speaker 7>Doesn't mean that every time they're running, it's only because of.

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<v Speaker 4>What you're asking me.

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<v Speaker 2>The question was about nature documentaries, right, So what I'm

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<v Speaker 2>saying is that in these documentaries, most of what you're

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<v Speaker 2>seeing is from a birdshot point of view, a helicopter

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<v Speaker 2>very noisy, and the horses are running because they're running

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<v Speaker 2>away from the damn helicopter.

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<v Speaker 7>What if you're at some other perch, like on a

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<v Speaker 7>mountain top.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, look, I'll also can see that horses run

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<v Speaker 2>to get from one place to another.

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<v Speaker 7>Yeah, they must.

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<v Speaker 2>It's it's like, hey, we got to go over there

0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:05.120
<v Speaker 2>and get some water. Run, let's run. That don't mean

0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:06.559
<v Speaker 2>they enjoy doing it.

0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:06.800
<v Speaker 4>You know.

0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:09.000
<v Speaker 7>Why wouldn't they walk to the water.

0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:10.120
<v Speaker 4>Because it takes longer.

0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:15.599
<v Speaker 2>And let's just put this out there in terms of

0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:17.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if either one of you have actually

0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:21.040
<v Speaker 2>consumed anything in regards to nature documentaries, but they're all

0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:21.680
<v Speaker 2>full of ship.

0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:23.400
<v Speaker 7>Yeah that I do.

0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:26.800
<v Speaker 2>That's kind of my point before all of nature documentaries,

0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:29.160
<v Speaker 2>not even just in regards to horses, regards to all animals.

0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:32.000
<v Speaker 2>They fake a lot of stuff in nature documentaries, the sound.

0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:32.559
<v Speaker 4>And all laid up.

0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:36.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the I was listening to a story the other day,

0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:38.800
<v Speaker 2>a podcast story. I didn't read it in the book,

0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:43.840
<v Speaker 2>but thank you. What are what are those things called lemons?

0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:45.160
<v Speaker 7>Lemons?

0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:47.559
<v Speaker 4>Lemmons? Yeah you know that that.

0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:51.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they don't actually do that, that's made up.

0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:52.600
<v Speaker 7>So what what?

0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:56.000
<v Speaker 2>So like there's this famous documentary of like a bunch

0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:58.439
<v Speaker 2>of lemmings, like one. The idea is that one runs

0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:00.360
<v Speaker 2>and jumps off a cliff and they're all so stupid.

0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:01.760
<v Speaker 2>They're just like, oh, you did it. I'm gonna do

0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.440
<v Speaker 2>it so that that's become like a saying.

0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:07.760
<v Speaker 10>Now, one of these is a nasty little rodent called

0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:12.440
<v Speaker 10>the lemmings. There's an actual living legend or it said

0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:15.600
<v Speaker 10>of this tiny animal that it commits mass suicide by

0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:17.240
<v Speaker 10>rushing into the sea and droves.

0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:22.000
<v Speaker 2>Most people think it was popularised by this Disney documentary

0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:26.520
<v Speaker 2>from the fifties, and this Canadian journalist like looked into

0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:29.000
<v Speaker 2>it and he found that they legally like fake the

0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:32.840
<v Speaker 2>whole thing. These lemmings were like brought in from a

0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:35.640
<v Speaker 2>part of Canada where like they're not even native to you.

0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:41.520
<v Speaker 2>And the filmmakers were like literally pushing them off the cliff.

0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:43.959
<v Speaker 10>They reached the final precipice.

0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:53.280
<v Speaker 11>This is the last chance to turn back, and over

0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:56.120
<v Speaker 11>they go, casting themselves bodily out into space.

0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:01.520
<v Speaker 1>But it's all made up, Okay, physically pushing them off

0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:03.880
<v Speaker 1>the cliff or like scaring them to jump.

0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:08.559
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, you know, for them off the cliff insane.

0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:10.800
<v Speaker 2>You know this didn't come from nowhere.

0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:11.320
<v Speaker 6>Uh.

0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:14.000
<v Speaker 2>Lemmons do dissipate from an area, right, Like they go

0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:15.439
<v Speaker 2>to an area, they eat up all the food and

0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:16.679
<v Speaker 2>then they're like, all right, we got to get out

0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:16.800
<v Speaker 2>of here.

0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:17.480
<v Speaker 4>Leave.

0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:21.440
<v Speaker 2>So the thinking is that like people saw this happening,

0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:24.280
<v Speaker 2>and sometimes they do all like get all you know,

0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:26.000
<v Speaker 2>lined up on the cliff when they're doing this, But

0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:27.360
<v Speaker 2>they're not like meaning suicid.

0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:29.400
<v Speaker 7>They're not trying to fall off the Yeah, they're just

0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:30.040
<v Speaker 7>trying to move on.

0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:33.520
<v Speaker 4>They're trying to just leave the area. It's time to die.

0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:34.840
<v Speaker 4>I'm gonna see if I can find.

0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:42.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, knowing how set up in kind of facos documentaries are,

0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:46.000
<v Speaker 1>it wouldn't surprise me if in this footage of horses

0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:48.160
<v Speaker 1>running in the wild that they did something to me

0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:51.920
<v Speaker 1>want them to run first before they I don't know

0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:57.160
<v Speaker 1>if it's a helicopter scaring them, but it wouldn't surprise

0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:00.760
<v Speaker 1>me if they did something. I also think something we're

0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:05.840
<v Speaker 1>kind of ascribing human conceptions of liking and I don't

0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:10.520
<v Speaker 1>know how to really talk about animals and the pleasure

0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:14.600
<v Speaker 1>they perceive, Like do any animals do anything purely.

0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:16.000
<v Speaker 7>Because they like it?

0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:19.120
<v Speaker 8>Like even even we talked about the dogs running outside,

0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:23.040
<v Speaker 8>I think I think they play, But I mean, is

0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:25.080
<v Speaker 8>it or is it just like their bodies saying like

0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:27.240
<v Speaker 8>you need to exercise and you're you have all this

0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:28.200
<v Speaker 8>energy to use.

0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:32.160
<v Speaker 4>But I think he enjoys the act of running.

0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:35.240
<v Speaker 2>The only thing I would concede is to Manny's point,

0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:38.560
<v Speaker 2>I think horses are more similar to humans than be

0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:42.800
<v Speaker 2>getting credit for. I think they have different personalities. Some

0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:45.480
<v Speaker 2>of those motherfuckers might like to run. And I think,

0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:48.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, did we talk about the horses. We haven't

0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:51.600
<v Speaker 2>even brought up the racetrack stuff because I know that's

0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:54.360
<v Speaker 2>we all can agree that's bad.

0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:56.400
<v Speaker 7>Well, we know they're good at running. They're good at

0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:58.760
<v Speaker 7>and they're being controlled and.

0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:02.520
<v Speaker 2>Their bread to run anything like they're being Their whole

0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:05.120
<v Speaker 2>life is being reinforced to run. So I think that

0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:07.560
<v Speaker 2>is a different type of horse than you can't a

0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:09.160
<v Speaker 2>horse in a while because it's.

0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:13.320
<v Speaker 4>Like, yeah, literally your existence it's dependent on running. Like

0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:16.480
<v Speaker 4>race horses. Yeah, I don't think you really have a

0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:17.960
<v Speaker 4>choice on whether or not you like it. You just

0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:18.320
<v Speaker 4>do it.

0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:22.600
<v Speaker 2>I think horses in the wild are There's probably some

0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:26.720
<v Speaker 2>lazy horses. There's probably some horses who love to run

0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:28.880
<v Speaker 2>and want to run. And I think if we had

0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:32.680
<v Speaker 2>to like give horses a survey, I think more horses

0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:35.440
<v Speaker 2>would not like running versus horses that enjoy running.

0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:38.840
<v Speaker 7>That's interesting, So why why do you say that?

0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:41.080
<v Speaker 4>Because I've never seen a horse run?

0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:48.920
<v Speaker 7>All right, So how would we try to get an

0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:49.440
<v Speaker 7>answer for this?

0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:51.760
<v Speaker 4>Then that's the quest.

0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:53.400
<v Speaker 2>I think there's a lot of I think there's a

0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:56.720
<v Speaker 2>lot of people who are invested in this, the truth

0:16:56.760 --> 0:16:57.320
<v Speaker 2>not getting out.

0:16:57.320 --> 0:16:59.120
<v Speaker 7>It goes back to the documentaries.

0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:02.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I guess a good question is why do you think, uh,

0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:08.399
<v Speaker 1>it's it's been important for humankind to to beat into us.

0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:09.840
<v Speaker 7>That horses enjoy running.

0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:13.240
<v Speaker 2>To my earlier point, yeah, everything we do with horses

0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:14.479
<v Speaker 2>involves them moving.

0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:16.119
<v Speaker 7>This is the first.

0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:19.000
<v Speaker 2>Domino if the true if the truth comes out that

0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:21.639
<v Speaker 2>these horses are not really down for that and you

0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:23.919
<v Speaker 2>are forcing them to do that. I think people have

0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:27.800
<v Speaker 2>to feel very differently about the way that we interact

0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:28.720
<v Speaker 2>with horses day to day.

0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:30.480
<v Speaker 4>So I think it's a lot easier to just say, hey,

0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:31.719
<v Speaker 4>they're good at this. They like it.

0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:35.400
<v Speaker 2>They like when my daughter Susie is riding it every

0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.679
<v Speaker 2>Tuesday for two hours and jumping over for stuff because

0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:40.600
<v Speaker 2>that's what they that's what they would do in a while.

0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:42.600
<v Speaker 4>They just like doing that. So like, we're giving her

0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:45.120
<v Speaker 4>the opportunity to do that. And I'm like, I don't

0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:45.760
<v Speaker 4>think horses.

0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:49.760
<v Speaker 2>I think if you let that horse be left alone,

0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:53.160
<v Speaker 2>then have a little Susie riding it, it would.

0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:54.320
<v Speaker 4>Not be running and jumping it.

0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:57.320
<v Speaker 2>It will be standing there eating some food, run when

0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:00.520
<v Speaker 2>it needs to otherwise, leave me alone, Susie.

0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:01.919
<v Speaker 4>I don't want to just be out here running.

0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:06.040
<v Speaker 1>So we tell ourselves horses enjoy running to rationalize what

0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:06.800
<v Speaker 1>we do to them.

0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:11.560
<v Speaker 4>Yes, we're saying absolutely, wow, yeah, absolutely.

0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:14.639
<v Speaker 7>How can we go about trying to get to the

0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:15.159
<v Speaker 7>bottom of this.

0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:18.639
<v Speaker 2>We gotta find some people who are not in the

0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:24.160
<v Speaker 2>horse industrial complex. After the break, we talked to someone

0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:27.240
<v Speaker 2>who left the horse industrial complex and take a journey

0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:31.920
<v Speaker 2>that made us reevaluate our entire relationship to animals. Uh hullo,

0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:36.040
<v Speaker 2>all right, so we got a horse walking out to us.

0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:44.360
<v Speaker 4>All right, Fellas, we're back in this studio.

0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:48.760
<v Speaker 2>So we've had this question for a while, and I

0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:51.800
<v Speaker 2>think sort of a tough thing with this question is

0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:53.320
<v Speaker 2>finding the right person.

0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:56.600
<v Speaker 4>To talk to because, as we've discussed.

0:18:56.480 --> 0:19:00.480
<v Speaker 2>In Part one, in the eight hundred previous conversations we've

0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:03.760
<v Speaker 2>had about this topic, there's a lot of biases, involves

0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:05.920
<v Speaker 2>a lot very touchy issue.

0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:08.440
<v Speaker 4>On this issue. I don't you know, I don't really

0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:09.440
<v Speaker 4>trust anybody on it.

0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:13.760
<v Speaker 7>But I think I can't even trust your own eyes.

0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:16.560
<v Speaker 2>Can't trust well, I can't trust my own eyes, which

0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:23.080
<v Speaker 2>is why we're here. Sure, but I think I found

0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:26.960
<v Speaker 2>the perfect person for this, okay, because she's someone who

0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:32.680
<v Speaker 2>has experience on both sides of defense.

0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:33.439
<v Speaker 4>Let's say my.

0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:37.200
<v Speaker 3>Name is Ren Hurst. I've got a twenty year background

0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:40.880
<v Speaker 3>as a professional horsewoman, relatively successful as both a horse

0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:42.040
<v Speaker 3>trainer and a farrier.

0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:44.520
<v Speaker 2>I had to look up what the hell that is?

0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:48.080
<v Speaker 2>E R F A R R I E R This

0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:52.240
<v Speaker 2>shows how horse. This is someone who like trims horse,

0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:57.679
<v Speaker 2>who's okay, like professionally, so you know, she was a trainer,

0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:00.200
<v Speaker 2>She rode horse. She spent twenty years of horse.

0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:02.600
<v Speaker 7>Let's just for this, and what does she do now?

0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:07.439
<v Speaker 4>She left the She actually left the industry entirely. Wow, okay,

0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:10.399
<v Speaker 4>why did she leave? What we're going to get to.

0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:15.640
<v Speaker 4>So she grew up in Texas, represent manny was born

0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:16.160
<v Speaker 4>in Dallas.

0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:17.159
<v Speaker 7>I didn't actually grow up there.

0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:20.240
<v Speaker 2>That doesn't count, but she joked that where she grew

0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:23.280
<v Speaker 2>up there were actually more horses than people in her hometown.

0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:26.280
<v Speaker 3>I grew up in Rodeo Country. Usa, going to rodeos

0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:30.640
<v Speaker 3>as a kid being around horses. Like most girls, I

0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:33.160
<v Speaker 3>looked at horses as a symbol of freedom and power

0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:37.439
<v Speaker 3>and beauty, and was, you know, obviously drawn to that

0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:38.920
<v Speaker 3>for all the reasons that most people are.

0:20:39.240 --> 0:20:41.320
<v Speaker 2>So didn Ren went on to have a pretty successful

0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:44.919
<v Speaker 2>career as a professional horsewoman. She said her transformation to

0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:47.199
<v Speaker 2>where she is now then happened overnight, but there was

0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:49.199
<v Speaker 2>like one really big catalyst that put her on the

0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:50.240
<v Speaker 2>path that she's on today.

0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:53.600
<v Speaker 3>I ended up in this very esoteric school of horsemanship

0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:55.600
<v Speaker 3>out of Russia called nipsar Off Autocle.

0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:59.639
<v Speaker 12>Thanks to the school's method, such relations between horse and

0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:03.280
<v Speaker 12>men now turn out to be possible without the use

0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:07.520
<v Speaker 12>of any special painful device in its mouth, without punishment,

0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:09.640
<v Speaker 12>without any means of control.

0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:13.480
<v Speaker 3>And I had no intention of coming to the conclusions

0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:15.920
<v Speaker 3>that I did, But I thought, here's a man, the

0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:18.919
<v Speaker 3>guy that's leading the school at the time, that can

0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:21.439
<v Speaker 3>do things that I've never seen done before. And I

0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:24.560
<v Speaker 3>was really advanced in my own horsemanship skills, so that

0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:25.480
<v Speaker 3>was saying something.

0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:28.119
<v Speaker 2>And Ren was shocked because she said, unlike what she

0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:30.680
<v Speaker 2>was doing there today, what this guy was doing didn't

0:21:30.680 --> 0:21:32.879
<v Speaker 2>involve any actual training whatsoever.

0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:35.160
<v Speaker 3>And for one, you have to understand there's all sorts

0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:38.040
<v Speaker 3>of different ways to modify an animal's behavior or a

0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:44.160
<v Speaker 3>human's behavior from the perspective of having a unequal power dynamic,

0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:48.280
<v Speaker 3>where somebody has control of the situation and can manipulate

0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:54.000
<v Speaker 3>coerce force. So I'm speaking to absolutely, in any forms

0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:56.480
<v Speaker 3>of training, it doesn't matter how positive you perceive the

0:21:56.480 --> 0:22:01.160
<v Speaker 3>training to be. And I switched that with list feeling

0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:05.399
<v Speaker 3>intuiting and leading from an embodied place that made the

0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:08.639
<v Speaker 3>animal feel very safe to be with me because I

0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:10.920
<v Speaker 3>was not being dishonest on any level.

0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:14.200
<v Speaker 2>And then Reren actually took those tools and tried to

0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:15.880
<v Speaker 2>put them into practice.

0:22:15.440 --> 0:22:18.840
<v Speaker 3>And I started working with this very untamed stallion that

0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:24.800
<v Speaker 3>was potentially really dangerous. And after having a long successful

0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:27.360
<v Speaker 3>career as a trainer, what I was applying with this

0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:32.159
<v Speaker 3>horse was completely dismantling everything I had ever thought to

0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:36.680
<v Speaker 3>be true, and it completely shattered my reality, both as

0:22:36.680 --> 0:22:39.399
<v Speaker 3>a horse trainer, but also just as a human being

0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:42.080
<v Speaker 3>on this planet, looking at what the fuck are we

0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:46.360
<v Speaker 3>doing dominating nature in this way and separating ourselves from

0:22:46.400 --> 0:22:49.040
<v Speaker 3>each other and from the natural order of things.

0:22:49.640 --> 0:22:53.520
<v Speaker 2>So the school completely shattered Ren's worldview and her philosophy

0:22:53.560 --> 0:22:56.119
<v Speaker 2>of like how humans should be interacting with animals.

0:22:56.400 --> 0:22:59.240
<v Speaker 3>Everything we think we know about horses is viewed through

0:22:59.280 --> 0:23:02.000
<v Speaker 3>the lens of our own domestication, rather through the lens

0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:05.080
<v Speaker 3>of actually understanding what it means to be horse much

0:23:05.119 --> 0:23:05.800
<v Speaker 3>less animal.

0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:09.439
<v Speaker 2>So run does they'll have horses now, But she's not

0:23:09.480 --> 0:23:12.159
<v Speaker 2>like out there riding them or like forcing them to

0:23:12.200 --> 0:23:12.760
<v Speaker 2>run around.

0:23:13.320 --> 0:23:16.879
<v Speaker 3>I have undomesticated my herd, which basically means I have

0:23:16.960 --> 0:23:20.240
<v Speaker 3>returned them to their own emotional sovereignty, which means that

0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:23.119
<v Speaker 3>I have allowed them to be guided by their own

0:23:23.119 --> 0:23:26.679
<v Speaker 3>intrinsic forces rather than my perceived ideas of what is

0:23:27.000 --> 0:23:29.879
<v Speaker 3>good and not good for them. And that has rewritten

0:23:30.320 --> 0:23:33.600
<v Speaker 3>my truth around what horses need, who horses are, and

0:23:33.760 --> 0:23:35.840
<v Speaker 3>what is actually good for them. And when you spend

0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:39.040
<v Speaker 3>a lot of time with wild or undomesticated animals, you

0:23:39.080 --> 0:23:42.639
<v Speaker 3>get to have an entirely different experience of what it

0:23:42.760 --> 0:23:47.800
<v Speaker 3>means to be fully embodied animal. Our entire society is

0:23:47.840 --> 0:23:51.240
<v Speaker 3>set up to keep you from doing that, because domestication

0:23:52.000 --> 0:23:55.800
<v Speaker 3>is the intentional interruption of emotional development so that someone

0:23:55.840 --> 0:23:58.520
<v Speaker 3>can control your behavior, and that is the essence of

0:23:58.560 --> 0:24:03.560
<v Speaker 3>capitalism and society as it currently exists. They still are

0:24:03.680 --> 0:24:07.080
<v Speaker 3>selling you the field goods instead of the feel at alls,

0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:07.919
<v Speaker 3>she took.

0:24:07.800 --> 0:24:08.359
<v Speaker 7>The red pill.

0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:12.240
<v Speaker 4>Oh wow, we feel good versus the feel.

0:24:12.160 --> 0:24:14.040
<v Speaker 1>Red is operating on a different level. Y, she's on

0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:14.720
<v Speaker 1>a different plane.

0:24:15.080 --> 0:24:16.200
<v Speaker 7>Let me let me get this straight.

0:24:16.240 --> 0:24:19.880
<v Speaker 1>So basically, Ren is making an argument as to why

0:24:19.920 --> 0:24:23.399
<v Speaker 1>we shouldn't domesticate horses. And basically if the specific argument

0:24:23.480 --> 0:24:27.439
<v Speaker 1>is that domestication is a form of like trauma and

0:24:27.480 --> 0:24:32.000
<v Speaker 1>so like if you domesticate an animal, their development is

0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:36.399
<v Speaker 1>constantly being interrupted, Yes, because we're interfering in their lives

0:24:36.440 --> 0:24:38.280
<v Speaker 1>that they were not built well, they weren't built for

0:24:38.400 --> 0:24:38.919
<v Speaker 1>us to do that.

0:24:39.160 --> 0:24:41.200
<v Speaker 2>And I think her takeaway is like we should just

0:24:41.280 --> 0:24:45.119
<v Speaker 2>be focused on ourselves and not like trying to domesticate others,

0:24:45.200 --> 0:24:48.600
<v Speaker 2>and that's including animals. But before we go too deep

0:24:48.640 --> 0:24:51.679
<v Speaker 2>down nat rabbit hole, I wanted to ask her, you know,

0:24:51.800 --> 0:24:54.480
<v Speaker 2>how the horses are behaving now that she's changed the

0:24:54.480 --> 0:24:55.840
<v Speaker 2>way that she's interacting with them.

0:24:56.119 --> 0:24:58.160
<v Speaker 3>So I have a heard of twenty that I still

0:24:58.200 --> 0:25:03.520
<v Speaker 3>care for. And this most significant difference is the herd

0:25:03.720 --> 0:25:08.360
<v Speaker 3>is just very very peaceful. More, I mean, just all

0:25:08.400 --> 0:25:11.840
<v Speaker 3>the time, like, they listen. They're very cooperative. They don't

0:25:11.880 --> 0:25:14.840
<v Speaker 3>act like horses that have anything to worry about. Everything

0:25:14.920 --> 0:25:17.879
<v Speaker 3>is easy to do. If I need to trim somebody's hoofs,

0:25:17.880 --> 0:25:19.440
<v Speaker 3>if I need to do vet care, if I need

0:25:19.480 --> 0:25:21.600
<v Speaker 3>to manage them, if I need to move them from

0:25:21.600 --> 0:25:24.480
<v Speaker 3>place to place. We don't use any training, there's no manipulation,

0:25:25.160 --> 0:25:27.960
<v Speaker 3>and yet there is a cohesiveness and a harmony and

0:25:28.000 --> 0:25:32.600
<v Speaker 3>a cooperative state of being here just because they know

0:25:32.680 --> 0:25:34.760
<v Speaker 3>that they are cared for and safe and don't have

0:25:34.840 --> 0:25:37.639
<v Speaker 3>to you know, they know they're always going to be heard.

0:25:38.240 --> 0:25:40.840
<v Speaker 1>Now that that's how she behaves towards horses, like, that's

0:25:40.840 --> 0:25:45.720
<v Speaker 1>her new kind of line of thinking. Did you ask her?

0:25:46.359 --> 0:25:51.320
<v Speaker 1>Like if horses are running on their own more willingly

0:25:51.520 --> 0:25:55.240
<v Speaker 1>or doing it less often because of that new dynamic.

0:25:55.320 --> 0:25:59.639
<v Speaker 1>So basically, without the human interaction, what are they doing?

0:26:00.080 --> 0:26:04.119
<v Speaker 3>These guys run when they play, They definitely have bouts

0:26:04.160 --> 0:26:06.120
<v Speaker 3>of that. We're all wake up and see the whole

0:26:06.160 --> 0:26:08.640
<v Speaker 3>herd running around and rearing up and bucking, and they're

0:26:08.680 --> 0:26:12.200
<v Speaker 3>just you know, feeling good in themselves, and it's intrinsically motivated,

0:26:12.240 --> 0:26:14.600
<v Speaker 3>and you can tell they're being joyful because they're playing.

0:26:15.119 --> 0:26:17.280
<v Speaker 3>There's also times where they get scared of something and

0:26:17.280 --> 0:26:21.440
<v Speaker 3>then they run because it's instinctual. They never run because

0:26:21.440 --> 0:26:23.560
<v Speaker 3>anybody's telling them to, because there's nobody to do that.

0:26:23.960 --> 0:26:28.639
<v Speaker 3>I don't think anyone can say horses love to run

0:26:28.720 --> 0:26:31.359
<v Speaker 3>about any horse all the time, Like just like I

0:26:31.359 --> 0:26:34.359
<v Speaker 3>can't say you love whatever you're drinking right now all

0:26:34.400 --> 0:26:37.600
<v Speaker 3>the time. Like there are moments I love to run

0:26:37.720 --> 0:26:40.760
<v Speaker 3>because it feels good to do so, but those moments

0:26:40.800 --> 0:26:45.600
<v Speaker 3>are not consistent, they're not every day and it has

0:26:45.640 --> 0:26:47.760
<v Speaker 3>nothing to do with who I am. And if anybody

0:26:47.800 --> 0:26:49.800
<v Speaker 3>perceived that about me, I'd be like, you don't know

0:26:49.880 --> 0:26:52.280
<v Speaker 3>shit about me, Like why would you even say that?

0:26:52.440 --> 0:26:57.120
<v Speaker 3>And that's we typically project I mean, that's what domestication is.

0:26:57.200 --> 0:27:00.399
<v Speaker 3>It's like a constant projection of trauma from the human world.

0:27:00.680 --> 0:27:03.720
<v Speaker 1>That is insightful to me because it's it's basically the

0:27:03.800 --> 0:27:07.280
<v Speaker 1>answers horses do, like running when they want to run,

0:27:07.840 --> 0:27:10.679
<v Speaker 1>which is I know that's not super novel, but like

0:27:10.760 --> 0:27:11.399
<v Speaker 1>it does help me.

0:27:11.720 --> 0:27:12.720
<v Speaker 7>We're talking about it.

0:27:12.680 --> 0:27:16.280
<v Speaker 1>It's helpful because when most of the time horses are running,

0:27:16.320 --> 0:27:18.320
<v Speaker 1>they don't want to. It's like a race or when

0:27:18.359 --> 0:27:22.120
<v Speaker 1>we're seeing them or work or labor. Yeah, even our

0:27:22.359 --> 0:27:25.560
<v Speaker 1>question in her art, in her view, is probably a

0:27:25.600 --> 0:27:28.919
<v Speaker 1>form of domesticating the well yeah, well yeah, because it's

0:27:28.960 --> 0:27:32.080
<v Speaker 1>the idea, that's the idea of the world that where horses.

0:27:34.600 --> 0:27:36.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's like the whole point of this question was

0:27:36.680 --> 0:27:40.199
<v Speaker 2>to be like, everyone thinks horses love to run, I

0:27:40.200 --> 0:27:43.360
<v Speaker 2>don't think they do. And it's like, so, then now

0:27:43.400 --> 0:27:46.000
<v Speaker 2>we've gone to the other extreme of saying like, no,

0:27:46.080 --> 0:27:49.920
<v Speaker 2>horses don't like running at all at any time, rather

0:27:50.000 --> 0:27:50.879
<v Speaker 2>than like, I don't know.

0:27:50.920 --> 0:27:52.159
<v Speaker 4>It's kind of complex.

0:27:51.800 --> 0:27:58.200
<v Speaker 8>Sometimes individual creatures. Yeah, and there's different moods and different things.

0:27:58.040 --> 0:28:00.720
<v Speaker 2>And even all the horses that like to run may

0:28:00.800 --> 0:28:03.360
<v Speaker 2>not want to run on one day versus another day.

0:28:03.440 --> 0:28:08.320
<v Speaker 8>Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's it's the most logical explanation. Yeah,

0:28:08.760 --> 0:28:10.440
<v Speaker 8>it seems like it makes the most sense.

0:28:10.720 --> 0:28:14.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it seems like another kind of framing we had

0:28:15.880 --> 0:28:19.400
<v Speaker 1>was if horses were left to their own devices, would

0:28:19.440 --> 0:28:21.600
<v Speaker 1>they be running more or less? It sounds like the

0:28:21.640 --> 0:28:22.359
<v Speaker 1>answer is less.

0:28:22.600 --> 0:28:23.600
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I think that's true.

0:28:23.760 --> 0:28:26.720
<v Speaker 2>And even talking to people who I would say, like

0:28:26.960 --> 0:28:30.399
<v Speaker 2>really disagree or run, they had a similar sentiment that like, no,

0:28:30.480 --> 0:28:33.159
<v Speaker 2>horses aren't just going to be out there sprinting just

0:28:33.280 --> 0:28:35.840
<v Speaker 2>because like they aren't like cross country runners.

0:28:35.880 --> 0:28:36.720
<v Speaker 4>That's not the case.

0:28:37.280 --> 0:28:38.080
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, I agree with that.

0:28:38.120 --> 0:28:41.080
<v Speaker 8>It sounds like even the horses that made like running

0:28:41.120 --> 0:28:43.880
<v Speaker 8>probably aren't doing it for you know, vast lengths of

0:28:43.880 --> 0:28:47.800
<v Speaker 8>time or across great distances, even if humans had no

0:28:47.920 --> 0:28:51.640
<v Speaker 8>impact on their lives, which.

0:28:51.440 --> 0:28:54.960
<v Speaker 1>Is contrary to kind of what we grew up believing.

0:29:02.960 --> 0:29:06.400
<v Speaker 3>I really think that the more healed we become in

0:29:06.440 --> 0:29:10.920
<v Speaker 3>our own animal body, the less domestication is even interesting.

0:29:11.200 --> 0:29:13.920
<v Speaker 3>And there's a reason that wild animals out there aren't

0:29:14.120 --> 0:29:17.160
<v Speaker 3>domesticating each other because they don't need to and there's

0:29:17.160 --> 0:29:19.560
<v Speaker 3>no value in that. So when you talk to these

0:29:19.560 --> 0:29:22.960
<v Speaker 3>other people and ask them that question, it's like, well,

0:29:23.000 --> 0:29:25.959
<v Speaker 3>what happens when you remove all of your influence from

0:29:26.000 --> 0:29:28.200
<v Speaker 3>the horse? Are they still running? The answer is no,

0:29:28.240 --> 0:29:31.080
<v Speaker 3>they're not because their horses are so freaking traumatized that

0:29:31.080 --> 0:29:33.480
<v Speaker 3>that's why they stand around in pastures all day and

0:29:33.560 --> 0:29:36.960
<v Speaker 3>do nothing. And that's not black and white either, because

0:29:37.000 --> 0:29:39.680
<v Speaker 3>the better a horse is loved and cared for, the

0:29:39.680 --> 0:29:41.760
<v Speaker 3>better they feel in their body, and the better you

0:29:41.760 --> 0:29:43.719
<v Speaker 3>feel in the body, the more you want to move it.

0:29:43.960 --> 0:29:45.800
<v Speaker 3>But that doesn't mean they're out there running around for

0:29:45.880 --> 0:29:49.239
<v Speaker 3>the sake of running around. Because no healthy animal is

0:29:49.320 --> 0:29:53.640
<v Speaker 3>unaware of the importance of the conservation of energy, especially

0:29:53.680 --> 0:29:56.200
<v Speaker 3>a prey animal. You're not going to have horses running

0:29:56.240 --> 0:29:59.480
<v Speaker 3>around expending energy for no reason when they might need

0:29:59.520 --> 0:30:02.120
<v Speaker 3>to run a away from a threat when it comes.

0:30:06.760 --> 0:30:10.520
<v Speaker 3>But I mean, most people that have a set perception

0:30:10.560 --> 0:30:13.800
<v Speaker 3>about anything haven't spent very much time observing with any

0:30:13.880 --> 0:30:16.760
<v Speaker 3>sort of open curiosity at all about the thing that

0:30:16.800 --> 0:30:18.360
<v Speaker 3>they're perceiving.

0:30:24.200 --> 0:30:26.120
<v Speaker 2>My love you, But I brought the gloves.

0:30:26.840 --> 0:30:28.200
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, ikay, great.

0:30:30.000 --> 0:30:32.000
<v Speaker 2>And to Rend's point, it felt weird for three guys

0:30:32.000 --> 0:30:34.760
<v Speaker 2>to do a whole podcast about horses without us actually

0:30:34.800 --> 0:30:38.360
<v Speaker 2>spending any time of horses. So we went back to

0:30:38.840 --> 0:30:42.440
<v Speaker 2>those New Jersey back roads and visited one of those

0:30:42.480 --> 0:30:44.640
<v Speaker 2>horse farms where this whole thing started.

0:30:45.040 --> 0:30:47.080
<v Speaker 7>Your destination will be on the left.

0:30:47.640 --> 0:30:48.000
<v Speaker 4>All right.

0:30:48.120 --> 0:30:51.960
<v Speaker 1>We were pulling up on the ranch here and I

0:30:52.240 --> 0:30:54.360
<v Speaker 1>and we'll see some horses outside, and I will say,

0:30:54.920 --> 0:30:57.000
<v Speaker 1>not a single one of them are running right now.

0:30:57.800 --> 0:30:59.960
<v Speaker 1>In fact, not only are they not running their state

0:31:00.040 --> 0:31:03.160
<v Speaker 1>and then completely still, I can't believe it.

0:31:04.360 --> 0:31:07.000
<v Speaker 4>We're okay, so one of them walking.

0:31:07.440 --> 0:31:10.080
<v Speaker 1>Okay, we got some let's go inside and see what's

0:31:10.160 --> 0:31:12.280
<v Speaker 1>up or outside or go outside.

0:31:12.320 --> 0:31:12.760
<v Speaker 4>That's right.

0:31:13.680 --> 0:31:17.280
<v Speaker 2>We took a tour of Bergen County Horse Rescue with Aaron,

0:31:17.520 --> 0:31:18.320
<v Speaker 2>who's the founder.

0:31:18.720 --> 0:31:21.560
<v Speaker 5>Give me a little.

0:31:22.160 --> 0:31:25.280
<v Speaker 2>So we're doing a podcast about whether or not horses

0:31:25.520 --> 0:31:26.120
<v Speaker 2>love running.

0:31:26.560 --> 0:31:30.280
<v Speaker 4>Okay, and Jen who's the equine manager.

0:31:30.440 --> 0:31:31.320
<v Speaker 1>So good timing.

0:31:31.320 --> 0:31:35.240
<v Speaker 3>The snakes are out yet, Hi, satnerns.

0:31:37.160 --> 0:31:38.920
<v Speaker 5>So now all of it's gonna come over and say

0:31:38.960 --> 0:31:42.160
<v Speaker 5>hi to us. Hey, and as soon as as soon

0:31:42.160 --> 0:31:44.560
<v Speaker 5>as Saturn comes over here, Saturn is going to chase

0:31:44.560 --> 0:31:46.040
<v Speaker 5>her away because.

0:31:45.760 --> 0:31:50.000
<v Speaker 7>Saturn's top horse and and all of us on the bottom.

0:31:50.080 --> 0:31:51.680
<v Speaker 7>So now watch Saturn's years.

0:31:51.520 --> 0:31:51.880
<v Speaker 6>Ago to do.

0:31:53.440 --> 0:31:54.760
<v Speaker 7>She's gonna chase her away.

0:31:56.200 --> 0:31:58.120
<v Speaker 8>Out and Saturn's gonna come and say hi.

0:31:58.320 --> 0:32:04.400
<v Speaker 5>So yeah, they really, they have all different personalities. People

0:32:04.400 --> 0:32:08.600
<v Speaker 5>will ask me that horses know their names, and they do,

0:32:08.720 --> 0:32:12.760
<v Speaker 5>but I believe that they all know their names. But

0:32:13.360 --> 0:32:17.479
<v Speaker 5>ninety percent of them are just going to ignore you anyway.

0:32:17.880 --> 0:32:20.160
<v Speaker 7>Some more cat cat Yeah exactly.

0:32:20.320 --> 0:32:23.640
<v Speaker 5>It's like, okay, all right, Murphy though, you call Murphy

0:32:24.200 --> 0:32:27.120
<v Speaker 5>and he comes right on, and I swear he loves it.

0:32:27.160 --> 0:32:30.760
<v Speaker 5>And we had him for probably two weeks and he

0:32:30.880 --> 0:32:32.000
<v Speaker 5>already learned his name.

0:32:32.240 --> 0:32:36.880
<v Speaker 4>Wow, which is pretty wild. This is Murphy. Oh oh Murphy.

0:32:37.000 --> 0:32:40.560
<v Speaker 7>This is drop kick Murphy.

0:32:42.280 --> 0:32:45.640
<v Speaker 13>Okay, so Ione running in the corner. Now it's more

0:32:45.680 --> 0:32:54.000
<v Speaker 13>of a trot. Okay, all right, all right, okay, I won't.

0:32:53.800 --> 0:32:56.040
<v Speaker 3>Call that a rum.

0:32:56.240 --> 0:32:58.480
<v Speaker 1>Definitely moving a little bit. But this is essentially like

0:32:58.600 --> 0:33:01.800
<v Speaker 1>the equivalent of me, like trying to beat the crosswalk

0:33:01.920 --> 0:33:05.200
<v Speaker 1>time yet the light, little dog and then I'm done

0:33:05.240 --> 0:33:06.120
<v Speaker 1>after ten seconds.

0:33:06.280 --> 0:33:08.880
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it's the weather.

0:33:09.040 --> 0:33:12.120
<v Speaker 5>This is more of a lazy day for them. The

0:33:12.160 --> 0:33:15.760
<v Speaker 5>sun is strong, so you probably in a little while

0:33:15.840 --> 0:33:19.120
<v Speaker 5>a lot of them will be laying laying down and sleeping.

0:33:19.840 --> 0:33:22.560
<v Speaker 2>Now you said, you know, you got to exercise them,

0:33:22.600 --> 0:33:25.320
<v Speaker 2>so left to their own devices, I guess they're not.

0:33:26.800 --> 0:33:30.200
<v Speaker 1>There's the media that you see about horses is always

0:33:30.200 --> 0:33:33.120
<v Speaker 1>about how much they are running all the time, and like, right,

0:33:33.280 --> 0:33:34.240
<v Speaker 1>there's movies.

0:33:34.280 --> 0:33:38.120
<v Speaker 5>Are you know seriously? Well, yeah, I watch even some

0:33:38.200 --> 0:33:41.080
<v Speaker 5>of the stuff, and you know, they're on these rides

0:33:42.760 --> 0:33:46.320
<v Speaker 5>throughout the United States, and I'm like, like, the horses

0:33:46.400 --> 0:33:47.360
<v Speaker 5>need to rest.

0:33:47.840 --> 0:33:48.360
<v Speaker 7>What hurt they?

0:33:48.600 --> 0:33:50.440
<v Speaker 5>Meanwhile, it's like a movie. I'm like, they better water

0:33:51.360 --> 0:33:55.840
<v Speaker 5>those horses soon. Probably one of the most animals that

0:33:57.040 --> 0:34:01.479
<v Speaker 5>there's a lot of misconceptions about Yeah, people don't know

0:34:01.680 --> 0:34:04.240
<v Speaker 5>enough about them and the stuff that's out there for

0:34:04.360 --> 0:34:08.200
<v Speaker 5>the general public. Israeli miss misinformed.

0:35:02.160 --> 0:35:04.760
<v Speaker 2>No such thing as produced by Manny Fidel, Norh Friedman

0:35:04.880 --> 0:35:08.719
<v Speaker 2>and Me Devin Joseph. Theme song by Manny This is

0:35:08.800 --> 0:35:10.719
<v Speaker 2>I've always been the first to say I love you

0:35:10.920 --> 0:35:14.200
<v Speaker 2>by certain self. Our guests this week were Aaron and

0:35:14.320 --> 0:35:17.160
<v Speaker 2>Jenny from the Bergen County Horse Rescue and Ren Hurts,

0:35:17.160 --> 0:35:20.240
<v Speaker 2>who has a book out titled The Wisdom of Wildness.

0:35:20.640 --> 0:35:24.160
<v Speaker 2>Thanks to our friends for their notes. Julia Lindsay, Miata Graff,

0:35:24.440 --> 0:35:28.840
<v Speaker 2>Captaine Isaac, Sarah Floyd, and Truthy Mpja from Search Engine

0:35:29.200 --> 0:35:32.680
<v Speaker 2>visit no such thing that show to see photos of

0:35:32.800 --> 0:35:36.360
<v Speaker 2>us with Murphy at the Bergen County Horse Rescue and

0:35:36.440 --> 0:35:39.360
<v Speaker 2>some of our wild horses hate running merch that we

0:35:39.400 --> 0:35:40.920
<v Speaker 2>made back in twenty nineteen.

0:36:00.239 --> 0:36:02.279
<v Speaker 4>Time on no such thing right now.

0:36:02.280 --> 0:36:04.200
<v Speaker 7>I've got to give it. I think a one point five.

0:36:04.640 --> 0:36:07.800
<v Speaker 4>Damn you said a lot of it is pretty hideous

0:36:07.800 --> 0:36:09.440
<v Speaker 4>to me. That's crazy.