Speaker 1: I'm Manny, I'm Noah.
Speaker 2: And this is Devin and this is no such thing.
Speaker 2: The show where we settle our dumb arguments in yours
Speaker 2: by actually doing the research. On today's episode, we settle
Speaker 2: on an argument we've been having for nearly ten years.
Speaker 1: I think it's kind of insane to say that horses
Speaker 1: don't like to run.
Speaker 3: Most people that have a set perception about anything haven't
Speaker 3: spent very much time observing with any sort of open curiosity.
Speaker 4: So good timing, the snakes are not yet.
Speaker 5: Hi sound.
Speaker 6: No, there's no such thing such thing.
Speaker 2: So I grew up in a suburb in New Jersey,
Speaker 2: and like most suburbs in the Northeast, there's not much
Speaker 2: to do. So we spend a lot of time going
Speaker 2: back and forth to the mall at one point actually
Speaker 2: work at the mall, And to avoid a lot of
Speaker 2: the traffic on the main roads, we would take the
Speaker 2: back roads. And on these back roads there were a
Speaker 2: ton of horse farms, so we'd often be driving back
Speaker 2: and forth past horses, and I start to notice, every
Speaker 2: single time we would drive past these horse farms, they
Speaker 2: were never running.
Speaker 4: I don't see, you know.
Speaker 2: To that point, especially, I'd not seen a lot of
Speaker 2: horses in my life, you know, not up close, but
Speaker 2: we see all these pictures, all this what I'll call
Speaker 2: propaganda as children of horses running, being majestic. And I
Speaker 2: was like, how come every time when there are no
Speaker 2: people around on this farm, the horses are just standing still,
Speaker 2: mostly eating, not really moving around much at all, not even.
Speaker 7: A trot, no gallops.
Speaker 4: No barely a galls up. They're just standing there, right.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, if I were to put a group,
Speaker 2: you know, and this is when they're together, you know,
Speaker 2: the families together is rare. I would see one horse alone.
Speaker 2: Usually there's two or three of them, and what do
Speaker 2: you call it?
Speaker 4: A pen? I don't know what you call those things?
Speaker 7: Like, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 4: Fenced in air.
Speaker 2: This is how much I know about horse, right, And
Speaker 2: I was like, if I have that same area and
Speaker 2: I put three dogs at some point from all these trips,
Speaker 2: I would see those dogs running. And to this day,
Speaker 2: I have never seen horses run in person without humans
Speaker 2: telling them to do it.
Speaker 7: Or forcing them to do it, So do it, okay?
Speaker 2: So then I started to think do horse is even
Speaker 2: like running? Like I don't think horses like to run
Speaker 2: because if they like to run, and we'd be running
Speaker 2: when humans weren't around.
Speaker 4: I guess I never really said this.
Speaker 2: Out loud until we started working together, because there's always
Speaker 2: been something that's percolating in my mind. Yeah, and you know,
Speaker 2: if we're getting to our dumb arguments and have our
Speaker 2: dumb conversations. And I brought it up to both of
Speaker 2: you one day and I was like, actually, I don't
Speaker 2: think horses like to run.
Speaker 1: So now all of our listeners are in the exact
Speaker 1: same position that no, right after you, but.
Speaker 2: Think God silent, But think about it. Think about it.
Speaker 2: When have you seen horses run right in person? We're
Speaker 2: gonna get later. We will get to the videos, the documentaries,
Speaker 2: the movies. Yeah, so called, I got lots to say
Speaker 2: about that. But just when in your life have you
Speaker 2: just seen a horse just going for it, like sprinting,
Speaker 2: just like I'm running.
Speaker 7: Oh, I like this, I can't say I have.
Speaker 8: I've also, you know, like you, I haven't really been
Speaker 8: around the horses.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I guess it's tough for me to recall because I
Speaker 1: haven't seen any horses really.
Speaker 2: So neither one of you have seen horses on a
Speaker 2: farm running on their own no, no, okay, I think
Speaker 2: we can maybe end the podcast. Yeah, so I guess
Speaker 2: maybe I should just say what, like to restate my
Speaker 2: opinion is, I don't think horses like to run. I
Speaker 2: think horses are good at running. I think they're majestic creatures.
Speaker 2: They're very strong, they're very powerful. They look beautiful running.
Speaker 2: But I don't think like in terms of like if
Speaker 2: horses got to decide whether or not they would like
Speaker 2: to run.
Speaker 4: I don't think most horses they would never run running.
Speaker 7: They would never run.
Speaker 2: But this is just based on what I've seen, and
Speaker 2: you know, you know, everyone that I've talked to, I
Speaker 2: haven't talked to anyone who's said they've seen horses run
Speaker 2: for fun and said, I don't know very many horse people.
Speaker 4: I don't spend a lot of time with a lot
Speaker 4: of horse people. But as a casual observer.
Speaker 2: Look, that's why I bring up the dog example, right,
Speaker 2: because even if something man, he doesn't really fuck with dogs.
Speaker 4: Yeah, man, he han't seen a dog run.
Speaker 7: I've seen them run all the time. The dog example
Speaker 7: is pretty powerful. I don't remember this one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's that usually dogs running no human interaction.
Speaker 4: You go to a dog park, all the humans. None
Speaker 4: of the humans are moving. The dogs are going.
Speaker 8: Off, yeah, I mean the dogs they have you know,
Speaker 8: really fast bursts of energy. I wonder if horses on
Speaker 8: their own might do that, you know, And we're just
Speaker 8: kind of about it.
Speaker 2: Like I have not seen it, not once, but like
Speaker 2: so I guess I think, yeah, where do we all
Speaker 2: stand on this?
Speaker 1: I think it's kind of insane to say that horses
Speaker 1: don't like to run.
Speaker 2: I think, Okay, so my initial initial my initial prompt
Speaker 2: was horses hate running, which is I that's a little strong.
Speaker 2: I am a little wrong, but sometimes you gotta ge
Speaker 2: people's attention.
Speaker 4: You know. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think my initial kind of reaction to this is
Speaker 1: I would imagine that, like humans, some horses might like running,
Speaker 1: some might not.
Speaker 7: I don't like running.
Speaker 1: I'll do it for exercise, but there are some people
Speaker 1: who do enjoy running, so I will. I think my
Speaker 1: initial reaction would just to be that it's probably similar
Speaker 1: to and even so that's still a very small portion
Speaker 1: of what you do if you're a runner.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 8: So it's like I mean thinking, like, you know, you
Speaker 8: you watch like a nature documentary, and we'll talk about
Speaker 8: documentaries more.
Speaker 4: Especially but I'm kind of saying that.
Speaker 8: But my point is that you only see kind of
Speaker 8: the extreme bits in those where you're not seeing most
Speaker 8: most of life. And this goes for humans as well
Speaker 8: as animals. Is pretty much doing nothing and then there's
Speaker 8: to him moments of extreme activity happening.
Speaker 7: You know.
Speaker 8: What I mean is like you watch physically documentary and
Speaker 8: it's like, okay, you see the the predator attacking.
Speaker 7: Yeah, most of the time, these animals are just sitting
Speaker 7: around drinking water. Yeah.
Speaker 8: So I kind of view that similarly to the the
Speaker 8: running where it's like, yeah, we'll run for five minutes,
Speaker 8: you know, kind of get our little moves on, and
Speaker 8: then yeah, we're just gonna chill out eat. Like why
Speaker 8: would we especially on a farm in the back roads. Yeah,
Speaker 8: there's not much going on, so yeah, we're just gonna chill.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 7: I think we front it around early in the morning,
Speaker 7: you know, before the cars are coming back.
Speaker 1: I think what's interesting about this question is that it
Speaker 1: is true that growing up, we are kind of led
Speaker 1: to believe that, like horses are running all the time.
Speaker 9: All the time, ride like the wind, the bull's eye,
Speaker 9: horses like.
Speaker 4: You run, the horses like you run the horses like
Speaker 4: to run.
Speaker 2: Have you ever seen a video image of a horse
Speaker 2: not running?
Speaker 7: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Like, right now, I'm gonna type horse into Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: the default those into Google, and the immediately the first horse.
Speaker 4: Is a horse is spounting, right.
Speaker 2: And it's kind of interesting because it's with other animals.
Speaker 4: But I'd say outside of like.
Speaker 7: A cheetah, yeah, I was gonna see cheatah.
Speaker 2: You know cheetah because we love to talk about how
Speaker 2: fast they are, so yeah, but those images we're gonna
Speaker 2: see any other animals, just.
Speaker 7: Like we love to talk about it.
Speaker 4: Love do we not?
Speaker 1: Do we at When I was in middle school, I
Speaker 1: was talking a lot about how fast cheetahs were.
Speaker 2: Insane, But we are fed this. Horses run, run, run, run,
Speaker 2: And I think part of it, part of it, I
Speaker 2: think is innocent, and that horses are very good at running.
Speaker 2: There they're you know, someone say, built to run. But
Speaker 2: I think part of it too is that from humans
Speaker 2: very first interactions with horses, we like to make them
Speaker 2: do shit, whether that's pulling things, racing, racing, and in
Speaker 2: order for us to feel better about making them do
Speaker 2: that stuff, even just transit like yep, from one place
Speaker 2: to the next, right, that's a lot harder to do
Speaker 2: if in your mind you're thinking maybe this animal actually
Speaker 2: doesn't like doing this.
Speaker 1: So you asked this question earlier. Have you ever seen
Speaker 1: a horse running and in person? We haven't.
Speaker 7: But there's you know, countless footage.
Speaker 4: Of this footage. So yeah, let's talk about the footage.
Speaker 1: So what do you think is happening about the horses
Speaker 1: that are running in the footage?
Speaker 4: Okay, what type of footage be talking about here? Because
Speaker 4: there's just.
Speaker 7: Being a field gallopy.
Speaker 2: Usually where let's think about this, right, beautiful, majestic, the
Speaker 2: sun sun setting. What is usually the angle we see
Speaker 2: of these horses is it? Is it down below a
Speaker 2: bird's eye view point of view?
Speaker 4: Wow?
Speaker 2: Okay, so what we're we got a bird's eye view
Speaker 2: of the horses a right, So usually we get bird's
Speaker 2: eye views of things, especially horses out in the wild
Speaker 2: wearing something I like to call a helicopter, Right, you
Speaker 2: like to call them that?
Speaker 8: Okay, I'm following them.
Speaker 4: Let me excuse this. Helicopters quiet?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 2: Are those quiet machines? Can a helicopter just pull up
Speaker 2: here real quick? And no one noticed that a helicopter's outside?
Speaker 4: No, they're really loud.
Speaker 7: So you're saying the horses are running because they're.
Speaker 4: Horses are easily spooked. That's like the everyone knows that.
Speaker 7: Probably the second fact we know, Yeah, horses are.
Speaker 4: You ever see the horses out there? Okay?
Speaker 2: I have been to a horse show before. Once again,
Speaker 2: none of the horses doing anything. But besides when that
Speaker 2: people are making them do they're there? But you know
Speaker 2: to some horses they have the blinders on because they
Speaker 2: can't see something to the side, or they're lose their
Speaker 2: damn mind.
Speaker 4: M okay.
Speaker 2: So, and you got to think about horses in a
Speaker 2: wild survival. If something is coming, if a threat, a
Speaker 2: predator is coming. M hm, you, that's when you gotta run.
Speaker 5: Go right.
Speaker 7: Doesn't mean that every time they're running, it's only because of.
Speaker 4: What you're asking me.
Speaker 2: The question was about nature documentaries, right, So what I'm
Speaker 2: saying is that in these documentaries, most of what you're
Speaker 2: seeing is from a birdshot point of view, a helicopter
Speaker 2: very noisy, and the horses are running because they're running
Speaker 2: away from the damn helicopter.
Speaker 7: What if you're at some other perch, like on a
Speaker 7: mountain top.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, look, I'll also can see that horses run
Speaker 2: to get from one place to another.
Speaker 7: Yeah, they must.
Speaker 2: It's it's like, hey, we got to go over there
Speaker 2: and get some water. Run, let's run. That don't mean
Speaker 2: they enjoy doing it.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 7: Why wouldn't they walk to the water.
Speaker 4: Because it takes longer.
Speaker 2: And let's just put this out there in terms of
Speaker 2: I don't know if either one of you have actually
Speaker 2: consumed anything in regards to nature documentaries, but they're all
Speaker 2: full of ship.
Speaker 7: Yeah that I do.
Speaker 2: That's kind of my point before all of nature documentaries,
Speaker 2: not even just in regards to horses, regards to all animals.
Speaker 2: They fake a lot of stuff in nature documentaries, the sound.
Speaker 4: And all laid up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the I was listening to a story the other day,
Speaker 2: a podcast story. I didn't read it in the book,
Speaker 2: but thank you. What are what are those things called lemons?
Speaker 7: Lemons?
Speaker 4: Lemmons? Yeah you know that that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't actually do that, that's made up.
Speaker 7: So what what?
Speaker 2: So like there's this famous documentary of like a bunch
Speaker 2: of lemmings, like one. The idea is that one runs
Speaker 2: and jumps off a cliff and they're all so stupid.
Speaker 2: They're just like, oh, you did it. I'm gonna do
Speaker 2: it so that that's become like a saying.
Speaker 10: Now, one of these is a nasty little rodent called
Speaker 10: the lemmings. There's an actual living legend or it said
Speaker 10: of this tiny animal that it commits mass suicide by
Speaker 10: rushing into the sea and droves.
Speaker 2: Most people think it was popularised by this Disney documentary
Speaker 2: from the fifties, and this Canadian journalist like looked into
Speaker 2: it and he found that they legally like fake the
Speaker 2: whole thing. These lemmings were like brought in from a
Speaker 2: part of Canada where like they're not even native to you.
Speaker 2: And the filmmakers were like literally pushing them off the cliff.
Speaker 10: They reached the final precipice.
Speaker 11: This is the last chance to turn back, and over
Speaker 11: they go, casting themselves bodily out into space.
Speaker 1: But it's all made up, Okay, physically pushing them off
Speaker 1: the cliff or like scaring them to jump.
Speaker 2: I don't know, you know, for them off the cliff insane.
Speaker 2: You know this didn't come from nowhere.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 2: Lemmons do dissipate from an area, right, Like they go
Speaker 2: to an area, they eat up all the food and
Speaker 2: then they're like, all right, we got to get out
Speaker 2: of here.
Speaker 4: Leave.
Speaker 2: So the thinking is that like people saw this happening,
Speaker 2: and sometimes they do all like get all you know,
Speaker 2: lined up on the cliff when they're doing this, But
Speaker 2: they're not like meaning suicid.
Speaker 7: They're not trying to fall off the Yeah, they're just
Speaker 7: trying to move on.
Speaker 4: They're trying to just leave the area. It's time to die.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna see if I can find.
Speaker 1: Yeah, knowing how set up in kind of facos documentaries are,
Speaker 1: it wouldn't surprise me if in this footage of horses
Speaker 1: running in the wild that they did something to me
Speaker 1: want them to run first before they I don't know
Speaker 1: if it's a helicopter scaring them, but it wouldn't surprise
Speaker 1: me if they did something. I also think something we're
Speaker 1: kind of ascribing human conceptions of liking and I don't
Speaker 1: know how to really talk about animals and the pleasure
Speaker 1: they perceive, Like do any animals do anything purely.
Speaker 7: Because they like it?
Speaker 8: Like even even we talked about the dogs running outside,
Speaker 8: I think I think they play, But I mean, is
Speaker 8: it or is it just like their bodies saying like
Speaker 8: you need to exercise and you're you have all this
Speaker 8: energy to use.
Speaker 4: But I think he enjoys the act of running.
Speaker 2: The only thing I would concede is to Manny's point,
Speaker 2: I think horses are more similar to humans than be
Speaker 2: getting credit for. I think they have different personalities. Some
Speaker 2: of those motherfuckers might like to run. And I think,
Speaker 2: you know, did we talk about the horses. We haven't
Speaker 2: even brought up the racetrack stuff because I know that's
Speaker 2: we all can agree that's bad.
Speaker 7: Well, we know they're good at running. They're good at
Speaker 7: and they're being controlled and.
Speaker 2: Their bread to run anything like they're being Their whole
Speaker 2: life is being reinforced to run. So I think that
Speaker 2: is a different type of horse than you can't a
Speaker 2: horse in a while because it's.
Speaker 4: Like, yeah, literally your existence it's dependent on running. Like
Speaker 4: race horses. Yeah, I don't think you really have a
Speaker 4: choice on whether or not you like it. You just
Speaker 4: do it.
Speaker 2: I think horses in the wild are There's probably some
Speaker 2: lazy horses. There's probably some horses who love to run
Speaker 2: and want to run. And I think if we had
Speaker 2: to like give horses a survey, I think more horses
Speaker 2: would not like running versus horses that enjoy running.
Speaker 7: That's interesting, So why why do you say that?
Speaker 4: Because I've never seen a horse run?
Speaker 7: All right, So how would we try to get an
Speaker 7: answer for this?
Speaker 4: Then that's the quest.
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of I think there's a
Speaker 2: lot of people who are invested in this, the truth
Speaker 2: not getting out.
Speaker 7: It goes back to the documentaries.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess a good question is why do you think, uh,
Speaker 1: it's it's been important for humankind to to beat into us.
Speaker 7: That horses enjoy running.
Speaker 2: To my earlier point, yeah, everything we do with horses
Speaker 2: involves them moving.
Speaker 7: This is the first.
Speaker 2: Domino if the true if the truth comes out that
Speaker 2: these horses are not really down for that and you
Speaker 2: are forcing them to do that. I think people have
Speaker 2: to feel very differently about the way that we interact
Speaker 2: with horses day to day.
Speaker 4: So I think it's a lot easier to just say, hey,
Speaker 4: they're good at this. They like it.
Speaker 2: They like when my daughter Susie is riding it every
Speaker 2: Tuesday for two hours and jumping over for stuff because
Speaker 2: that's what they that's what they would do in a while.
Speaker 4: They just like doing that. So like, we're giving her
Speaker 4: the opportunity to do that. And I'm like, I don't
Speaker 4: think horses.
Speaker 2: I think if you let that horse be left alone,
Speaker 2: then have a little Susie riding it, it would.
Speaker 4: Not be running and jumping it.
Speaker 2: It will be standing there eating some food, run when
Speaker 2: it needs to otherwise, leave me alone, Susie.
Speaker 4: I don't want to just be out here running.
Speaker 1: So we tell ourselves horses enjoy running to rationalize what
Speaker 1: we do to them.
Speaker 4: Yes, we're saying absolutely, wow, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 7: How can we go about trying to get to the
Speaker 7: bottom of this.
Speaker 2: We gotta find some people who are not in the
Speaker 2: horse industrial complex. After the break, we talked to someone
Speaker 2: who left the horse industrial complex and take a journey
Speaker 2: that made us reevaluate our entire relationship to animals. Uh hullo,
Speaker 2: all right, so we got a horse walking out to us.
Speaker 4: All right, Fellas, we're back in this studio.
Speaker 2: So we've had this question for a while, and I
Speaker 2: think sort of a tough thing with this question is
Speaker 2: finding the right person.
Speaker 4: To talk to because, as we've discussed.
Speaker 2: In Part one, in the eight hundred previous conversations we've
Speaker 2: had about this topic, there's a lot of biases, involves
Speaker 2: a lot very touchy issue.
Speaker 4: On this issue. I don't you know, I don't really
Speaker 4: trust anybody on it.
Speaker 7: But I think I can't even trust your own eyes.
Speaker 2: Can't trust well, I can't trust my own eyes, which
Speaker 2: is why we're here. Sure, but I think I found
Speaker 2: the perfect person for this, okay, because she's someone who
Speaker 2: has experience on both sides of defense.
Speaker 4: Let's say my.
Speaker 3: Name is Ren Hurst. I've got a twenty year background
Speaker 3: as a professional horsewoman, relatively successful as both a horse
Speaker 3: trainer and a farrier.
Speaker 2: I had to look up what the hell that is?
Speaker 2: E R F A R R I E R This
Speaker 2: shows how horse. This is someone who like trims horse,
Speaker 2: who's okay, like professionally, so you know, she was a trainer,
Speaker 2: She rode horse. She spent twenty years of horse.
Speaker 7: Let's just for this, and what does she do now?
Speaker 4: She left the She actually left the industry entirely. Wow, okay,
Speaker 4: why did she leave? What we're going to get to.
Speaker 4: So she grew up in Texas, represent manny was born
Speaker 4: in Dallas.
Speaker 7: I didn't actually grow up there.
Speaker 2: That doesn't count, but she joked that where she grew
Speaker 2: up there were actually more horses than people in her hometown.
Speaker 3: I grew up in Rodeo Country. Usa, going to rodeos
Speaker 3: as a kid being around horses. Like most girls, I
Speaker 3: looked at horses as a symbol of freedom and power
Speaker 3: and beauty, and was, you know, obviously drawn to that
Speaker 3: for all the reasons that most people are.
Speaker 2: So didn Ren went on to have a pretty successful
Speaker 2: career as a professional horsewoman. She said her transformation to
Speaker 2: where she is now then happened overnight, but there was
Speaker 2: like one really big catalyst that put her on the
Speaker 2: path that she's on today.
Speaker 3: I ended up in this very esoteric school of horsemanship
Speaker 3: out of Russia called nipsar Off Autocle.
Speaker 12: Thanks to the school's method, such relations between horse and
Speaker 12: men now turn out to be possible without the use
Speaker 12: of any special painful device in its mouth, without punishment,
Speaker 12: without any means of control.
Speaker 3: And I had no intention of coming to the conclusions
Speaker 3: that I did, But I thought, here's a man, the
Speaker 3: guy that's leading the school at the time, that can
Speaker 3: do things that I've never seen done before. And I
Speaker 3: was really advanced in my own horsemanship skills, so that
Speaker 3: was saying something.
Speaker 2: And Ren was shocked because she said, unlike what she
Speaker 2: was doing there today, what this guy was doing didn't
Speaker 2: involve any actual training whatsoever.
Speaker 3: And for one, you have to understand there's all sorts
Speaker 3: of different ways to modify an animal's behavior or a
Speaker 3: human's behavior from the perspective of having a unequal power dynamic,
Speaker 3: where somebody has control of the situation and can manipulate
Speaker 3: coerce force. So I'm speaking to absolutely, in any forms
Speaker 3: of training, it doesn't matter how positive you perceive the
Speaker 3: training to be. And I switched that with list feeling
Speaker 3: intuiting and leading from an embodied place that made the
Speaker 3: animal feel very safe to be with me because I
Speaker 3: was not being dishonest on any level.
Speaker 2: And then Reren actually took those tools and tried to
Speaker 2: put them into practice.
Speaker 3: And I started working with this very untamed stallion that
Speaker 3: was potentially really dangerous. And after having a long successful
Speaker 3: career as a trainer, what I was applying with this
Speaker 3: horse was completely dismantling everything I had ever thought to
Speaker 3: be true, and it completely shattered my reality, both as
Speaker 3: a horse trainer, but also just as a human being
Speaker 3: on this planet, looking at what the fuck are we
Speaker 3: doing dominating nature in this way and separating ourselves from
Speaker 3: each other and from the natural order of things.
Speaker 2: So the school completely shattered Ren's worldview and her philosophy
Speaker 2: of like how humans should be interacting with animals.
Speaker 3: Everything we think we know about horses is viewed through
Speaker 3: the lens of our own domestication, rather through the lens
Speaker 3: of actually understanding what it means to be horse much
Speaker 3: less animal.
Speaker 2: So run does they'll have horses now, But she's not
Speaker 2: like out there riding them or like forcing them to
Speaker 2: run around.
Speaker 3: I have undomesticated my herd, which basically means I have
Speaker 3: returned them to their own emotional sovereignty, which means that
Speaker 3: I have allowed them to be guided by their own
Speaker 3: intrinsic forces rather than my perceived ideas of what is
Speaker 3: good and not good for them. And that has rewritten
Speaker 3: my truth around what horses need, who horses are, and
Speaker 3: what is actually good for them. And when you spend
Speaker 3: a lot of time with wild or undomesticated animals, you
Speaker 3: get to have an entirely different experience of what it
Speaker 3: means to be fully embodied animal. Our entire society is
Speaker 3: set up to keep you from doing that, because domestication
Speaker 3: is the intentional interruption of emotional development so that someone
Speaker 3: can control your behavior, and that is the essence of
Speaker 3: capitalism and society as it currently exists. They still are
Speaker 3: selling you the field goods instead of the feel at alls,
Speaker 3: she took.
Speaker 7: The red pill.
Speaker 4: Oh wow, we feel good versus the feel.
Speaker 1: Red is operating on a different level. Y, she's on
Speaker 1: a different plane.
Speaker 7: Let me let me get this straight.
Speaker 1: So basically, Ren is making an argument as to why
Speaker 1: we shouldn't domesticate horses. And basically if the specific argument
Speaker 1: is that domestication is a form of like trauma and
Speaker 1: so like if you domesticate an animal, their development is
Speaker 1: constantly being interrupted, Yes, because we're interfering in their lives
Speaker 1: that they were not built well, they weren't built for
Speaker 1: us to do that.
Speaker 2: And I think her takeaway is like we should just
Speaker 2: be focused on ourselves and not like trying to domesticate others,
Speaker 2: and that's including animals. But before we go too deep
Speaker 2: down nat rabbit hole, I wanted to ask her, you know,
Speaker 2: how the horses are behaving now that she's changed the
Speaker 2: way that she's interacting with them.
Speaker 3: So I have a heard of twenty that I still
Speaker 3: care for. And this most significant difference is the herd
Speaker 3: is just very very peaceful. More, I mean, just all
Speaker 3: the time, like, they listen. They're very cooperative. They don't
Speaker 3: act like horses that have anything to worry about. Everything
Speaker 3: is easy to do. If I need to trim somebody's hoofs,
Speaker 3: if I need to do vet care, if I need
Speaker 3: to manage them, if I need to move them from
Speaker 3: place to place. We don't use any training, there's no manipulation,
Speaker 3: and yet there is a cohesiveness and a harmony and
Speaker 3: a cooperative state of being here just because they know
Speaker 3: that they are cared for and safe and don't have
Speaker 3: to you know, they know they're always going to be heard.
Speaker 1: Now that that's how she behaves towards horses, like, that's
Speaker 1: her new kind of line of thinking. Did you ask her?
Speaker 1: Like if horses are running on their own more willingly
Speaker 1: or doing it less often because of that new dynamic.
Speaker 1: So basically, without the human interaction, what are they doing?
Speaker 3: These guys run when they play, They definitely have bouts
Speaker 3: of that. We're all wake up and see the whole
Speaker 3: herd running around and rearing up and bucking, and they're
Speaker 3: just you know, feeling good in themselves, and it's intrinsically motivated,
Speaker 3: and you can tell they're being joyful because they're playing.
Speaker 3: There's also times where they get scared of something and
Speaker 3: then they run because it's instinctual. They never run because
Speaker 3: anybody's telling them to, because there's nobody to do that.
Speaker 3: I don't think anyone can say horses love to run
Speaker 3: about any horse all the time, Like just like I
Speaker 3: can't say you love whatever you're drinking right now all
Speaker 3: the time. Like there are moments I love to run
Speaker 3: because it feels good to do so, but those moments
Speaker 3: are not consistent, they're not every day and it has
Speaker 3: nothing to do with who I am. And if anybody
Speaker 3: perceived that about me, I'd be like, you don't know
Speaker 3: shit about me, Like why would you even say that?
Speaker 3: And that's we typically project I mean, that's what domestication is.
Speaker 3: It's like a constant projection of trauma from the human world.
Speaker 1: That is insightful to me because it's it's basically the
Speaker 1: answers horses do, like running when they want to run,
Speaker 1: which is I know that's not super novel, but like
Speaker 1: it does help me.
Speaker 7: We're talking about it.
Speaker 1: It's helpful because when most of the time horses are running,
Speaker 1: they don't want to. It's like a race or when
Speaker 1: we're seeing them or work or labor. Yeah, even our
Speaker 1: question in her art, in her view, is probably a
Speaker 1: form of domesticating the well yeah, well yeah, because it's
Speaker 1: the idea, that's the idea of the world that where horses.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like the whole point of this question was
Speaker 2: to be like, everyone thinks horses love to run, I
Speaker 2: don't think they do. And it's like, so, then now
Speaker 2: we've gone to the other extreme of saying like, no,
Speaker 2: horses don't like running at all at any time, rather
Speaker 2: than like, I don't know.
Speaker 4: It's kind of complex.
Speaker 8: Sometimes individual creatures. Yeah, and there's different moods and different things.
Speaker 2: And even all the horses that like to run may
Speaker 2: not want to run on one day versus another day.
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's it's the most logical explanation. Yeah,
Speaker 8: it seems like it makes the most sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like another kind of framing we had
Speaker 1: was if horses were left to their own devices, would
Speaker 1: they be running more or less? It sounds like the
Speaker 1: answer is less.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's true.
Speaker 2: And even talking to people who I would say, like
Speaker 2: really disagree or run, they had a similar sentiment that like, no,
Speaker 2: horses aren't just going to be out there sprinting just
Speaker 2: because like they aren't like cross country runners.
Speaker 4: That's not the case.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I agree with that.
Speaker 8: It sounds like even the horses that made like running
Speaker 8: probably aren't doing it for you know, vast lengths of
Speaker 8: time or across great distances, even if humans had no
Speaker 8: impact on their lives, which.
Speaker 1: Is contrary to kind of what we grew up believing.
Speaker 3: I really think that the more healed we become in
Speaker 3: our own animal body, the less domestication is even interesting.
Speaker 3: And there's a reason that wild animals out there aren't
Speaker 3: domesticating each other because they don't need to and there's
Speaker 3: no value in that. So when you talk to these
Speaker 3: other people and ask them that question, it's like, well,
Speaker 3: what happens when you remove all of your influence from
Speaker 3: the horse? Are they still running? The answer is no,
Speaker 3: they're not because their horses are so freaking traumatized that
Speaker 3: that's why they stand around in pastures all day and
Speaker 3: do nothing. And that's not black and white either, because
Speaker 3: the better a horse is loved and cared for, the
Speaker 3: better they feel in their body, and the better you
Speaker 3: feel in the body, the more you want to move it.
Speaker 3: But that doesn't mean they're out there running around for
Speaker 3: the sake of running around. Because no healthy animal is
Speaker 3: unaware of the importance of the conservation of energy, especially
Speaker 3: a prey animal. You're not going to have horses running
Speaker 3: around expending energy for no reason when they might need
Speaker 3: to run a away from a threat when it comes.
Speaker 3: But I mean, most people that have a set perception
Speaker 3: about anything haven't spent very much time observing with any
Speaker 3: sort of open curiosity at all about the thing that
Speaker 3: they're perceiving.
Speaker 2: My love you, But I brought the gloves.
Speaker 4: Yeah, ikay, great.
Speaker 2: And to Rend's point, it felt weird for three guys
Speaker 2: to do a whole podcast about horses without us actually
Speaker 2: spending any time of horses. So we went back to
Speaker 2: those New Jersey back roads and visited one of those
Speaker 2: horse farms where this whole thing started.
Speaker 7: Your destination will be on the left.
Speaker 4: All right.
Speaker 1: We were pulling up on the ranch here and I
Speaker 1: and we'll see some horses outside, and I will say,
Speaker 1: not a single one of them are running right now.
Speaker 1: In fact, not only are they not running their state
Speaker 1: and then completely still, I can't believe it.
Speaker 4: We're okay, so one of them walking.
Speaker 1: Okay, we got some let's go inside and see what's
Speaker 1: up or outside or go outside.
Speaker 4: That's right.
Speaker 2: We took a tour of Bergen County Horse Rescue with Aaron,
Speaker 2: who's the founder.
Speaker 5: Give me a little.
Speaker 2: So we're doing a podcast about whether or not horses
Speaker 2: love running.
Speaker 4: Okay, and Jen who's the equine manager.
Speaker 1: So good timing.
Speaker 3: The snakes are out yet, Hi, satnerns.
Speaker 5: So now all of it's gonna come over and say
Speaker 5: hi to us. Hey, and as soon as as soon
Speaker 5: as Saturn comes over here, Saturn is going to chase
Speaker 5: her away because.
Speaker 7: Saturn's top horse and and all of us on the bottom.
Speaker 7: So now watch Saturn's years.
Speaker 6: Ago to do.
Speaker 7: She's gonna chase her away.
Speaker 8: Out and Saturn's gonna come and say hi.
Speaker 5: So yeah, they really, they have all different personalities. People
Speaker 5: will ask me that horses know their names, and they do,
Speaker 5: but I believe that they all know their names. But
Speaker 5: ninety percent of them are just going to ignore you anyway.
Speaker 7: Some more cat cat Yeah exactly.
Speaker 5: It's like, okay, all right, Murphy though, you call Murphy
Speaker 5: and he comes right on, and I swear he loves it.
Speaker 5: And we had him for probably two weeks and he
Speaker 5: already learned his name.
Speaker 4: Wow, which is pretty wild. This is Murphy. Oh oh Murphy.
Speaker 7: This is drop kick Murphy.
Speaker 13: Okay, so Ione running in the corner. Now it's more
Speaker 13: of a trot. Okay, all right, all right, okay, I won't.
Speaker 3: Call that a rum.
Speaker 1: Definitely moving a little bit. But this is essentially like
Speaker 1: the equivalent of me, like trying to beat the crosswalk
Speaker 1: time yet the light, little dog and then I'm done
Speaker 1: after ten seconds.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's the weather.
Speaker 5: This is more of a lazy day for them. The
Speaker 5: sun is strong, so you probably in a little while
Speaker 5: a lot of them will be laying laying down and sleeping.
Speaker 2: Now you said, you know, you got to exercise them,
Speaker 2: so left to their own devices, I guess they're not.
Speaker 1: There's the media that you see about horses is always
Speaker 1: about how much they are running all the time, and like, right,
Speaker 1: there's movies.
Speaker 5: Are you know seriously? Well, yeah, I watch even some
Speaker 5: of the stuff, and you know, they're on these rides
Speaker 5: throughout the United States, and I'm like, like, the horses
Speaker 5: need to rest.
Speaker 7: What hurt they?
Speaker 5: Meanwhile, it's like a movie. I'm like, they better water
Speaker 5: those horses soon. Probably one of the most animals that
Speaker 5: there's a lot of misconceptions about Yeah, people don't know
Speaker 5: enough about them and the stuff that's out there for
Speaker 5: the general public. Israeli miss misinformed.
Speaker 2: No such thing as produced by Manny Fidel, Norh Friedman
Speaker 2: and Me Devin Joseph. Theme song by Manny This is
Speaker 2: I've always been the first to say I love you
Speaker 2: by certain self. Our guests this week were Aaron and
Speaker 2: Jenny from the Bergen County Horse Rescue and Ren Hurts,
Speaker 2: who has a book out titled The Wisdom of Wildness.
Speaker 2: Thanks to our friends for their notes. Julia Lindsay, Miata Graff,
Speaker 2: Captaine Isaac, Sarah Floyd, and Truthy Mpja from Search Engine
Speaker 2: visit no such thing that show to see photos of
Speaker 2: us with Murphy at the Bergen County Horse Rescue and
Speaker 2: some of our wild horses hate running merch that we
Speaker 2: made back in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 4: Time on no such thing right now.
Speaker 7: I've got to give it. I think a one point five.
Speaker 4: Damn you said a lot of it is pretty hideous
Speaker 4: to me. That's crazy.