1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:01,680 Speaker 1: I'm Manny, I'm Noah. 2 00:00:01,520 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 2: And this is Devin and this is no such thing. 3 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 2: The show where we settle our dumb arguments in yours 4 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:10,319 Speaker 2: by actually doing the research. On today's episode, we settle 5 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 2: on an argument we've been having for nearly ten years. 6 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: I think it's kind of insane to say that horses 7 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: don't like to run. 8 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,959 Speaker 3: Most people that have a set perception about anything haven't 9 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,440 Speaker 3: spent very much time observing with any sort of open curiosity. 10 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 4: So good timing, the snakes are not yet. 11 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 5: Hi sound. 12 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 6: No, there's no such thing such thing. 13 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 2: So I grew up in a suburb in New Jersey, 14 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 2: and like most suburbs in the Northeast, there's not much 15 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 2: to do. So we spend a lot of time going 16 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 2: back and forth to the mall at one point actually 17 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 2: work at the mall, And to avoid a lot of 18 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 2: the traffic on the main roads, we would take the 19 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 2: back roads. And on these back roads there were a 20 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 2: ton of horse farms, so we'd often be driving back 21 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 2: and forth past horses, and I start to notice, every 22 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 2: single time we would drive past these horse farms, they 23 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 2: were never running. 24 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 4: I don't see, you know. 25 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 2: To that point, especially, I'd not seen a lot of 26 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 2: horses in my life, you know, not up close, but 27 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 2: we see all these pictures, all this what I'll call 28 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 2: propaganda as children of horses running, being majestic. And I 29 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 2: was like, how come every time when there are no 30 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 2: people around on this farm, the horses are just standing still, 31 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 2: mostly eating, not really moving around much at all, not even. 32 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 7: A trot, no gallops. 33 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 4: No barely a galls up. They're just standing there, right. 34 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 2: And I'm like, if I were to put a group, 35 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 2: you know, and this is when they're together, you know, 36 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 2: the families together is rare. I would see one horse alone. 37 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 2: Usually there's two or three of them, and what do 38 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 2: you call it? 39 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 4: A pen? I don't know what you call those things? 40 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 7: Like, yeah, I don't know. 41 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 4: Fenced in air. 42 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 2: This is how much I know about horse, right, And 43 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 2: I was like, if I have that same area and 44 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 2: I put three dogs at some point from all these trips, 45 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 2: I would see those dogs running. And to this day, 46 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 2: I have never seen horses run in person without humans 47 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:49,359 Speaker 2: telling them to do it. 48 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 7: Or forcing them to do it, So do it, okay? 49 00:02:55,400 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 2: So then I started to think do horse is even 50 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 2: like running? Like I don't think horses like to run 51 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 2: because if they like to run, and we'd be running 52 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 2: when humans weren't around. 53 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 4: I guess I never really said this. 54 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 2: Out loud until we started working together, because there's always 55 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 2: been something that's percolating in my mind. Yeah, and you know, 56 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 2: if we're getting to our dumb arguments and have our 57 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 2: dumb conversations. And I brought it up to both of 58 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 2: you one day and I was like, actually, I don't 59 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 2: think horses like to run. 60 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: So now all of our listeners are in the exact 61 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: same position that no, right after you, but. 62 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 2: Think God silent, But think about it. Think about it. 63 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 2: When have you seen horses run right in person? We're 64 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 2: gonna get later. We will get to the videos, the documentaries, 65 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 2: the movies. Yeah, so called, I got lots to say 66 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 2: about that. But just when in your life have you 67 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 2: just seen a horse just going for it, like sprinting, 68 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 2: just like I'm running. 69 00:03:57,800 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 7: Oh, I like this, I can't say I have. 70 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 8: I've also, you know, like you, I haven't really been 71 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 8: around the horses. 72 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. 73 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: I guess it's tough for me to recall because I 74 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: haven't seen any horses really. 75 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 2: So neither one of you have seen horses on a 76 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 2: farm running on their own no, no, okay, I think 77 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 2: we can maybe end the podcast. Yeah, so I guess 78 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 2: maybe I should just say what, like to restate my 79 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 2: opinion is, I don't think horses like to run. I 80 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 2: think horses are good at running. I think they're majestic creatures. 81 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 2: They're very strong, they're very powerful. They look beautiful running. 82 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 2: But I don't think like in terms of like if 83 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 2: horses got to decide whether or not they would like 84 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 2: to run. 85 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 4: I don't think most horses they would never run running. 86 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 7: They would never run. 87 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 2: But this is just based on what I've seen, and 88 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 2: you know, you know, everyone that I've talked to, I 89 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 2: haven't talked to anyone who's said they've seen horses run 90 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 2: for fun and said, I don't know very many horse people. 91 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 4: I don't spend a lot of time with a lot 92 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 4: of horse people. But as a casual observer. 93 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 2: Look, that's why I bring up the dog example, right, 94 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 2: because even if something man, he doesn't really fuck with dogs. 95 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, man, he han't seen a dog run. 96 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 7: I've seen them run all the time. The dog example 97 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 7: is pretty powerful. I don't remember this one. 98 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's that usually dogs running no human interaction. 99 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 4: You go to a dog park, all the humans. None 100 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 4: of the humans are moving. The dogs are going. 101 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 8: Off, yeah, I mean the dogs they have you know, 102 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 8: really fast bursts of energy. I wonder if horses on 103 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 8: their own might do that, you know, And we're just 104 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:37,359 Speaker 8: kind of about it. 105 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 2: Like I have not seen it, not once, but like 106 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 2: so I guess I think, yeah, where do we all 107 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 2: stand on this? 108 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 1: I think it's kind of insane to say that horses 109 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: don't like to run. 110 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 2: I think, Okay, so my initial initial my initial prompt 111 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 2: was horses hate running, which is I that's a little strong. 112 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 2: I am a little wrong, but sometimes you gotta ge 113 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 2: people's attention. 114 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 4: You know. Yeah. 115 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 1: I think my initial kind of reaction to this is 116 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: I would imagine that, like humans, some horses might like running, 117 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:13,919 Speaker 1: some might not. 118 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 7: I don't like running. 119 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: I'll do it for exercise, but there are some people 120 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: who do enjoy running, so I will. I think my 121 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: initial reaction would just to be that it's probably similar 122 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,599 Speaker 1: to and even so that's still a very small portion 123 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 1: of what you do if you're a runner. 124 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's true. 125 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 8: So it's like I mean thinking, like, you know, you 126 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 8: you watch like a nature documentary, and we'll talk about 127 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 8: documentaries more. 128 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 4: Especially but I'm kind of saying that. 129 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 8: But my point is that you only see kind of 130 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 8: the extreme bits in those where you're not seeing most 131 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 8: most of life. And this goes for humans as well 132 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 8: as animals. Is pretty much doing nothing and then there's 133 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 8: to him moments of extreme activity happening. 134 00:06:59,640 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 7: You know. 135 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 8: What I mean is like you watch physically documentary and 136 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 8: it's like, okay, you see the the predator attacking. 137 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 7: Yeah, most of the time, these animals are just sitting 138 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 7: around drinking water. Yeah. 139 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 8: So I kind of view that similarly to the the 140 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:16,679 Speaker 8: running where it's like, yeah, we'll run for five minutes, 141 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 8: you know, kind of get our little moves on, and 142 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 8: then yeah, we're just gonna chill out eat. Like why 143 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 8: would we especially on a farm in the back roads. Yeah, 144 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 8: there's not much going on, so yeah, we're just gonna chill. 145 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 4: Yeah. 146 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 7: I think we front it around early in the morning, 147 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 7: you know, before the cars are coming back. 148 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: I think what's interesting about this question is that it 149 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: is true that growing up, we are kind of led 150 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: to believe that, like horses are running all the time. 151 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 9: All the time, ride like the wind, the bull's eye, 152 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 9: horses like. 153 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 4: You run, the horses like you run the horses like 154 00:07:59,320 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 4: to run. 155 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 2: Have you ever seen a video image of a horse 156 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 2: not running? 157 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 7: Yeah? 158 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: Like, right now, I'm gonna type horse into Yeah, it's 159 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: the default those into Google, and the immediately the first horse. 160 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 4: Is a horse is spounting, right. 161 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 2: And it's kind of interesting because it's with other animals. 162 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 4: But I'd say outside of like. 163 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 7: A cheetah, yeah, I was gonna see cheatah. 164 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 2: You know cheetah because we love to talk about how 165 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 2: fast they are, so yeah, but those images we're gonna 166 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 2: see any other animals, just. 167 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 7: Like we love to talk about it. 168 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 4: Love do we not? 169 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 1: Do we at When I was in middle school, I 170 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 1: was talking a lot about how fast cheetahs were. 171 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 2: Insane, But we are fed this. Horses run, run, run, run, 172 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 2: And I think part of it, part of it, I 173 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 2: think is innocent, and that horses are very good at running. 174 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 2: There they're you know, someone say, built to run. But 175 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 2: I think part of it too is that from humans 176 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 2: very first interactions with horses, we like to make them 177 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 2: do shit, whether that's pulling things, racing, racing, and in 178 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 2: order for us to feel better about making them do 179 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 2: that stuff, even just transit like yep, from one place 180 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 2: to the next, right, that's a lot harder to do 181 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 2: if in your mind you're thinking maybe this animal actually 182 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 2: doesn't like doing this. 183 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: So you asked this question earlier. Have you ever seen 184 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: a horse running and in person? We haven't. 185 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 7: But there's you know, countless footage. 186 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 4: Of this footage. So yeah, let's talk about the footage. 187 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: So what do you think is happening about the horses 188 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: that are running in the footage? 189 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 4: Okay, what type of footage be talking about here? Because 190 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:49,959 Speaker 4: there's just. 191 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 7: Being a field gallopy. 192 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 2: Usually where let's think about this, right, beautiful, majestic, the 193 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 2: sun sun setting. What is usually the angle we see 194 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:03,679 Speaker 2: of these horses is it? Is it down below a 195 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 2: bird's eye view point of view? 196 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 4: Wow? 197 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 2: Okay, so what we're we got a bird's eye view 198 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 2: of the horses a right, So usually we get bird's 199 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 2: eye views of things, especially horses out in the wild 200 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 2: wearing something I like to call a helicopter, Right, you 201 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 2: like to call them that? 202 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 8: Okay, I'm following them. 203 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 4: Let me excuse this. Helicopters quiet? 204 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:34,679 Speaker 6: No? 205 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 2: Are those quiet machines? Can a helicopter just pull up 206 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 2: here real quick? And no one noticed that a helicopter's outside? 207 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 4: No, they're really loud. 208 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 7: So you're saying the horses are running because they're. 209 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 4: Horses are easily spooked. That's like the everyone knows that. 210 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 7: Probably the second fact we know, Yeah, horses are. 211 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 4: You ever see the horses out there? Okay? 212 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 2: I have been to a horse show before. Once again, 213 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 2: none of the horses doing anything. But besides when that 214 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 2: people are making them do they're there? But you know 215 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 2: to some horses they have the blinders on because they 216 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 2: can't see something to the side, or they're lose their 217 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:13,119 Speaker 2: damn mind. 218 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 4: M okay. 219 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 2: So, and you got to think about horses in a 220 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 2: wild survival. If something is coming, if a threat, a 221 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 2: predator is coming. M hm, you, that's when you gotta run. 222 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 5: Go right. 223 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 7: Doesn't mean that every time they're running, it's only because of. 224 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 4: What you're asking me. 225 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 2: The question was about nature documentaries, right, So what I'm 226 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 2: saying is that in these documentaries, most of what you're 227 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 2: seeing is from a birdshot point of view, a helicopter 228 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 2: very noisy, and the horses are running because they're running 229 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 2: away from the damn helicopter. 230 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 7: What if you're at some other perch, like on a 231 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 7: mountain top. 232 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 2: Oh okay, look, I'll also can see that horses run 233 00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 2: to get from one place to another. 234 00:11:59,120 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 7: Yeah, they must. 235 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 2: It's it's like, hey, we got to go over there 236 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 2: and get some water. Run, let's run. That don't mean 237 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:06,559 Speaker 2: they enjoy doing it. 238 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 4: You know. 239 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 7: Why wouldn't they walk to the water. 240 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 4: Because it takes longer. 241 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,599 Speaker 2: And let's just put this out there in terms of 242 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 2: I don't know if either one of you have actually 243 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 2: consumed anything in regards to nature documentaries, but they're all 244 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 2: full of ship. 245 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 7: Yeah that I do. 246 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 2: That's kind of my point before all of nature documentaries, 247 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 2: not even just in regards to horses, regards to all animals. 248 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 2: They fake a lot of stuff in nature documentaries, the sound. 249 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:32,559 Speaker 4: And all laid up. 250 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, the I was listening to a story the other day, 251 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 2: a podcast story. I didn't read it in the book, 252 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 2: but thank you. What are what are those things called lemons? 253 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 7: Lemons? 254 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 4: Lemmons? Yeah you know that that. 255 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't actually do that, that's made up. 256 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 7: So what what? 257 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 2: So like there's this famous documentary of like a bunch 258 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,439 Speaker 2: of lemmings, like one. The idea is that one runs 259 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 2: and jumps off a cliff and they're all so stupid. 260 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 2: They're just like, oh, you did it. I'm gonna do 261 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 2: it so that that's become like a saying. 262 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 10: Now, one of these is a nasty little rodent called 263 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 10: the lemmings. There's an actual living legend or it said 264 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 10: of this tiny animal that it commits mass suicide by 265 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 10: rushing into the sea and droves. 266 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 2: Most people think it was popularised by this Disney documentary 267 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 2: from the fifties, and this Canadian journalist like looked into 268 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 2: it and he found that they legally like fake the 269 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 2: whole thing. These lemmings were like brought in from a 270 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 2: part of Canada where like they're not even native to you. 271 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 2: And the filmmakers were like literally pushing them off the cliff. 272 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:43,959 Speaker 10: They reached the final precipice. 273 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 11: This is the last chance to turn back, and over 274 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 11: they go, casting themselves bodily out into space. 275 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: But it's all made up, Okay, physically pushing them off 276 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: the cliff or like scaring them to jump. 277 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:08,559 Speaker 2: I don't know, you know, for them off the cliff insane. 278 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 2: You know this didn't come from nowhere. 279 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 6: Uh. 280 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 2: Lemmons do dissipate from an area, right, Like they go 281 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:15,439 Speaker 2: to an area, they eat up all the food and 282 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 2: then they're like, all right, we got to get out 283 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 2: of here. 284 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 4: Leave. 285 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 2: So the thinking is that like people saw this happening, 286 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 2: and sometimes they do all like get all you know, 287 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 2: lined up on the cliff when they're doing this, But 288 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 2: they're not like meaning suicid. 289 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 7: They're not trying to fall off the Yeah, they're just 290 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 7: trying to move on. 291 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 4: They're trying to just leave the area. It's time to die. 292 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 4: I'm gonna see if I can find. 293 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, knowing how set up in kind of facos documentaries are, 294 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: it wouldn't surprise me if in this footage of horses 295 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: running in the wild that they did something to me 296 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: want them to run first before they I don't know 297 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: if it's a helicopter scaring them, but it wouldn't surprise 298 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: me if they did something. I also think something we're 299 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: kind of ascribing human conceptions of liking and I don't 300 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: know how to really talk about animals and the pleasure 301 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: they perceive, Like do any animals do anything purely. 302 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 7: Because they like it? 303 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 8: Like even even we talked about the dogs running outside, 304 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 8: I think I think they play, But I mean, is 305 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 8: it or is it just like their bodies saying like 306 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 8: you need to exercise and you're you have all this 307 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 8: energy to use. 308 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 4: But I think he enjoys the act of running. 309 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 2: The only thing I would concede is to Manny's point, 310 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 2: I think horses are more similar to humans than be 311 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 2: getting credit for. I think they have different personalities. Some 312 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 2: of those motherfuckers might like to run. And I think, 313 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 2: you know, did we talk about the horses. We haven't 314 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 2: even brought up the racetrack stuff because I know that's 315 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 2: we all can agree that's bad. 316 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 7: Well, we know they're good at running. They're good at 317 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 7: and they're being controlled and. 318 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 2: Their bread to run anything like they're being Their whole 319 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 2: life is being reinforced to run. So I think that 320 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 2: is a different type of horse than you can't a 321 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 2: horse in a while because it's. 322 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 4: Like, yeah, literally your existence it's dependent on running. Like 323 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 4: race horses. Yeah, I don't think you really have a 324 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 4: choice on whether or not you like it. You just 325 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 4: do it. 326 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 2: I think horses in the wild are There's probably some 327 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 2: lazy horses. There's probably some horses who love to run 328 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 2: and want to run. And I think if we had 329 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 2: to like give horses a survey, I think more horses 330 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 2: would not like running versus horses that enjoy running. 331 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 7: That's interesting, So why why do you say that? 332 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 4: Because I've never seen a horse run? 333 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 7: All right, So how would we try to get an 334 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 7: answer for this? 335 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 4: Then that's the quest. 336 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of I think there's a 337 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 2: lot of people who are invested in this, the truth 338 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 2: not getting out. 339 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 7: It goes back to the documentaries. 340 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess a good question is why do you think, uh, 341 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 1: it's it's been important for humankind to to beat into us. 342 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 7: That horses enjoy running. 343 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 2: To my earlier point, yeah, everything we do with horses 344 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:14,479 Speaker 2: involves them moving. 345 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 7: This is the first. 346 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 2: Domino if the true if the truth comes out that 347 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 2: these horses are not really down for that and you 348 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:23,919 Speaker 2: are forcing them to do that. I think people have 349 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 2: to feel very differently about the way that we interact 350 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 2: with horses day to day. 351 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 4: So I think it's a lot easier to just say, hey, 352 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:31,719 Speaker 4: they're good at this. They like it. 353 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 2: They like when my daughter Susie is riding it every 354 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,679 Speaker 2: Tuesday for two hours and jumping over for stuff because 355 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 2: that's what they that's what they would do in a while. 356 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 4: They just like doing that. So like, we're giving her 357 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,120 Speaker 4: the opportunity to do that. And I'm like, I don't 358 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 4: think horses. 359 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 2: I think if you let that horse be left alone, 360 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 2: then have a little Susie riding it, it would. 361 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 4: Not be running and jumping it. 362 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 2: It will be standing there eating some food, run when 363 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 2: it needs to otherwise, leave me alone, Susie. 364 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 4: I don't want to just be out here running. 365 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: So we tell ourselves horses enjoy running to rationalize what 366 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: we do to them. 367 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 4: Yes, we're saying absolutely, wow, yeah, absolutely. 368 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 7: How can we go about trying to get to the 369 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 7: bottom of this. 370 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 2: We gotta find some people who are not in the 371 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 2: horse industrial complex. After the break, we talked to someone 372 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 2: who left the horse industrial complex and take a journey 373 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 2: that made us reevaluate our entire relationship to animals. Uh hullo, 374 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 2: all right, so we got a horse walking out to us. 375 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 4: All right, Fellas, we're back in this studio. 376 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 2: So we've had this question for a while, and I 377 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 2: think sort of a tough thing with this question is 378 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 2: finding the right person. 379 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 4: To talk to because, as we've discussed. 380 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 2: In Part one, in the eight hundred previous conversations we've 381 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 2: had about this topic, there's a lot of biases, involves 382 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 2: a lot very touchy issue. 383 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 4: On this issue. I don't you know, I don't really 384 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 4: trust anybody on it. 385 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 7: But I think I can't even trust your own eyes. 386 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 2: Can't trust well, I can't trust my own eyes, which 387 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 2: is why we're here. Sure, but I think I found 388 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 2: the perfect person for this, okay, because she's someone who 389 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 2: has experience on both sides of defense. 390 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:33,439 Speaker 4: Let's say my. 391 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 3: Name is Ren Hurst. I've got a twenty year background 392 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 3: as a professional horsewoman, relatively successful as both a horse 393 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 3: trainer and a farrier. 394 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 2: I had to look up what the hell that is? 395 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 2: E R F A R R I E R This 396 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 2: shows how horse. This is someone who like trims horse, 397 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 2: who's okay, like professionally, so you know, she was a trainer, 398 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 2: She rode horse. She spent twenty years of horse. 399 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 7: Let's just for this, and what does she do now? 400 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 4: She left the She actually left the industry entirely. Wow, okay, 401 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 4: why did she leave? What we're going to get to. 402 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 4: So she grew up in Texas, represent manny was born 403 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:16,160 Speaker 4: in Dallas. 404 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 7: I didn't actually grow up there. 405 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 2: That doesn't count, but she joked that where she grew 406 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 2: up there were actually more horses than people in her hometown. 407 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 3: I grew up in Rodeo Country. Usa, going to rodeos 408 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 3: as a kid being around horses. Like most girls, I 409 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 3: looked at horses as a symbol of freedom and power 410 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,439 Speaker 3: and beauty, and was, you know, obviously drawn to that 411 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 3: for all the reasons that most people are. 412 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 2: So didn Ren went on to have a pretty successful 413 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,919 Speaker 2: career as a professional horsewoman. She said her transformation to 414 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 2: where she is now then happened overnight, but there was 415 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,199 Speaker 2: like one really big catalyst that put her on the 416 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 2: path that she's on today. 417 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 3: I ended up in this very esoteric school of horsemanship 418 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 3: out of Russia called nipsar Off Autocle. 419 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 12: Thanks to the school's method, such relations between horse and 420 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 12: men now turn out to be possible without the use 421 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 12: of any special painful device in its mouth, without punishment, 422 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:09,640 Speaker 12: without any means of control. 423 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 3: And I had no intention of coming to the conclusions 424 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 3: that I did, But I thought, here's a man, the 425 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,919 Speaker 3: guy that's leading the school at the time, that can 426 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 3: do things that I've never seen done before. And I 427 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 3: was really advanced in my own horsemanship skills, so that 428 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 3: was saying something. 429 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 2: And Ren was shocked because she said, unlike what she 430 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 2: was doing there today, what this guy was doing didn't 431 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 2: involve any actual training whatsoever. 432 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 3: And for one, you have to understand there's all sorts 433 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 3: of different ways to modify an animal's behavior or a 434 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 3: human's behavior from the perspective of having a unequal power dynamic, 435 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 3: where somebody has control of the situation and can manipulate 436 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 3: coerce force. So I'm speaking to absolutely, in any forms 437 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 3: of training, it doesn't matter how positive you perceive the 438 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 3: training to be. And I switched that with list feeling 439 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 3: intuiting and leading from an embodied place that made the 440 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 3: animal feel very safe to be with me because I 441 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 3: was not being dishonest on any level. 442 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 2: And then Reren actually took those tools and tried to 443 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:15,880 Speaker 2: put them into practice. 444 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 3: And I started working with this very untamed stallion that 445 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 3: was potentially really dangerous. And after having a long successful 446 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,360 Speaker 3: career as a trainer, what I was applying with this 447 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 3: horse was completely dismantling everything I had ever thought to 448 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:36,680 Speaker 3: be true, and it completely shattered my reality, both as 449 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 3: a horse trainer, but also just as a human being 450 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 3: on this planet, looking at what the fuck are we 451 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 3: doing dominating nature in this way and separating ourselves from 452 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 3: each other and from the natural order of things. 453 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 2: So the school completely shattered Ren's worldview and her philosophy 454 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 2: of like how humans should be interacting with animals. 455 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 3: Everything we think we know about horses is viewed through 456 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 3: the lens of our own domestication, rather through the lens 457 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 3: of actually understanding what it means to be horse much 458 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 3: less animal. 459 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 2: So run does they'll have horses now, But she's not 460 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 2: like out there riding them or like forcing them to 461 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 2: run around. 462 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 3: I have undomesticated my herd, which basically means I have 463 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 3: returned them to their own emotional sovereignty, which means that 464 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 3: I have allowed them to be guided by their own 465 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,679 Speaker 3: intrinsic forces rather than my perceived ideas of what is 466 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 3: good and not good for them. And that has rewritten 467 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 3: my truth around what horses need, who horses are, and 468 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 3: what is actually good for them. And when you spend 469 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 3: a lot of time with wild or undomesticated animals, you 470 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 3: get to have an entirely different experience of what it 471 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 3: means to be fully embodied animal. Our entire society is 472 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 3: set up to keep you from doing that, because domestication 473 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 3: is the intentional interruption of emotional development so that someone 474 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 3: can control your behavior, and that is the essence of 475 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 3: capitalism and society as it currently exists. They still are 476 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 3: selling you the field goods instead of the feel at alls, 477 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:07,919 Speaker 3: she took. 478 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 7: The red pill. 479 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 4: Oh wow, we feel good versus the feel. 480 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: Red is operating on a different level. Y, she's on 481 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: a different plane. 482 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 7: Let me let me get this straight. 483 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 1: So basically, Ren is making an argument as to why 484 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 1: we shouldn't domesticate horses. And basically if the specific argument 485 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 1: is that domestication is a form of like trauma and 486 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: so like if you domesticate an animal, their development is 487 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: constantly being interrupted, Yes, because we're interfering in their lives 488 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: that they were not built well, they weren't built for 489 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 1: us to do that. 490 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 2: And I think her takeaway is like we should just 491 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 2: be focused on ourselves and not like trying to domesticate others, 492 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 2: and that's including animals. But before we go too deep 493 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 2: down nat rabbit hole, I wanted to ask her, you know, 494 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 2: how the horses are behaving now that she's changed the 495 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 2: way that she's interacting with them. 496 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 3: So I have a heard of twenty that I still 497 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 3: care for. And this most significant difference is the herd 498 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:08,360 Speaker 3: is just very very peaceful. More, I mean, just all 499 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 3: the time, like, they listen. They're very cooperative. They don't 500 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 3: act like horses that have anything to worry about. Everything 501 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 3: is easy to do. If I need to trim somebody's hoofs, 502 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 3: if I need to do vet care, if I need 503 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 3: to manage them, if I need to move them from 504 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 3: place to place. We don't use any training, there's no manipulation, 505 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 3: and yet there is a cohesiveness and a harmony and 506 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 3: a cooperative state of being here just because they know 507 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 3: that they are cared for and safe and don't have 508 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 3: to you know, they know they're always going to be heard. 509 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: Now that that's how she behaves towards horses, like, that's 510 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: her new kind of line of thinking. Did you ask her? 511 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: Like if horses are running on their own more willingly 512 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: or doing it less often because of that new dynamic. 513 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: So basically, without the human interaction, what are they doing? 514 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 3: These guys run when they play, They definitely have bouts 515 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 3: of that. We're all wake up and see the whole 516 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,640 Speaker 3: herd running around and rearing up and bucking, and they're 517 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 3: just you know, feeling good in themselves, and it's intrinsically motivated, 518 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 3: and you can tell they're being joyful because they're playing. 519 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 3: There's also times where they get scared of something and 520 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 3: then they run because it's instinctual. They never run because 521 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 3: anybody's telling them to, because there's nobody to do that. 522 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:28,639 Speaker 3: I don't think anyone can say horses love to run 523 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 3: about any horse all the time, Like just like I 524 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 3: can't say you love whatever you're drinking right now all 525 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 3: the time. Like there are moments I love to run 526 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 3: because it feels good to do so, but those moments 527 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 3: are not consistent, they're not every day and it has 528 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 3: nothing to do with who I am. And if anybody 529 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 3: perceived that about me, I'd be like, you don't know 530 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 3: shit about me, Like why would you even say that? 531 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:57,120 Speaker 3: And that's we typically project I mean, that's what domestication is. 532 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 3: It's like a constant projection of trauma from the human world. 533 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: That is insightful to me because it's it's basically the 534 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: answers horses do, like running when they want to run, 535 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 1: which is I know that's not super novel, but like 536 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 1: it does help me. 537 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 7: We're talking about it. 538 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: It's helpful because when most of the time horses are running, 539 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: they don't want to. It's like a race or when 540 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:22,120 Speaker 1: we're seeing them or work or labor. Yeah, even our 541 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: question in her art, in her view, is probably a 542 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,919 Speaker 1: form of domesticating the well yeah, well yeah, because it's 543 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: the idea, that's the idea of the world that where horses. 544 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like the whole point of this question was 545 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,199 Speaker 2: to be like, everyone thinks horses love to run, I 546 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,360 Speaker 2: don't think they do. And it's like, so, then now 547 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 2: we've gone to the other extreme of saying like, no, 548 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 2: horses don't like running at all at any time, rather 549 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 2: than like, I don't know. 550 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 4: It's kind of complex. 551 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 8: Sometimes individual creatures. Yeah, and there's different moods and different things. 552 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 2: And even all the horses that like to run may 553 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,360 Speaker 2: not want to run on one day versus another day. 554 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's it's the most logical explanation. Yeah, 555 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 8: it seems like it makes the most sense. 556 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like another kind of framing we had 557 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 1: was if horses were left to their own devices, would 558 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: they be running more or less? It sounds like the 559 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: answer is less. 560 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's true. 561 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 2: And even talking to people who I would say, like 562 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 2: really disagree or run, they had a similar sentiment that like, no, 563 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,159 Speaker 2: horses aren't just going to be out there sprinting just 564 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 2: because like they aren't like cross country runners. 565 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 4: That's not the case. 566 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 7: Yeah, I agree with that. 567 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 8: It sounds like even the horses that made like running 568 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 8: probably aren't doing it for you know, vast lengths of 569 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 8: time or across great distances, even if humans had no 570 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 8: impact on their lives, which. 571 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: Is contrary to kind of what we grew up believing. 572 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 3: I really think that the more healed we become in 573 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 3: our own animal body, the less domestication is even interesting. 574 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 3: And there's a reason that wild animals out there aren't 575 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 3: domesticating each other because they don't need to and there's 576 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 3: no value in that. So when you talk to these 577 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 3: other people and ask them that question, it's like, well, 578 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,959 Speaker 3: what happens when you remove all of your influence from 579 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 3: the horse? Are they still running? The answer is no, 580 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 3: they're not because their horses are so freaking traumatized that 581 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 3: that's why they stand around in pastures all day and 582 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 3: do nothing. And that's not black and white either, because 583 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 3: the better a horse is loved and cared for, the 584 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 3: better they feel in their body, and the better you 585 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,719 Speaker 3: feel in the body, the more you want to move it. 586 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 3: But that doesn't mean they're out there running around for 587 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,239 Speaker 3: the sake of running around. Because no healthy animal is 588 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 3: unaware of the importance of the conservation of energy, especially 589 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 3: a prey animal. You're not going to have horses running 590 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 3: around expending energy for no reason when they might need 591 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 3: to run a away from a threat when it comes. 592 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 3: But I mean, most people that have a set perception 593 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 3: about anything haven't spent very much time observing with any 594 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 3: sort of open curiosity at all about the thing that 595 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 3: they're perceiving. 596 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 2: My love you, But I brought the gloves. 597 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, ikay, great. 598 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 2: And to Rend's point, it felt weird for three guys 599 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 2: to do a whole podcast about horses without us actually 600 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 2: spending any time of horses. So we went back to 601 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 2: those New Jersey back roads and visited one of those 602 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 2: horse farms where this whole thing started. 603 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 7: Your destination will be on the left. 604 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 4: All right. 605 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: We were pulling up on the ranch here and I 606 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: and we'll see some horses outside, and I will say, 607 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: not a single one of them are running right now. 608 00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: In fact, not only are they not running their state 609 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: and then completely still, I can't believe it. 610 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 4: We're okay, so one of them walking. 611 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: Okay, we got some let's go inside and see what's 612 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: up or outside or go outside. 613 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 4: That's right. 614 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 2: We took a tour of Bergen County Horse Rescue with Aaron, 615 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 2: who's the founder. 616 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 5: Give me a little. 617 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 2: So we're doing a podcast about whether or not horses 618 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 2: love running. 619 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 4: Okay, and Jen who's the equine manager. 620 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: So good timing. 621 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 3: The snakes are out yet, Hi, satnerns. 622 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 5: So now all of it's gonna come over and say 623 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 5: hi to us. Hey, and as soon as as soon 624 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 5: as Saturn comes over here, Saturn is going to chase 625 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 5: her away because. 626 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 7: Saturn's top horse and and all of us on the bottom. 627 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 7: So now watch Saturn's years. 628 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 6: Ago to do. 629 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 7: She's gonna chase her away. 630 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 8: Out and Saturn's gonna come and say hi. 631 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 5: So yeah, they really, they have all different personalities. People 632 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 5: will ask me that horses know their names, and they do, 633 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 5: but I believe that they all know their names. But 634 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,479 Speaker 5: ninety percent of them are just going to ignore you anyway. 635 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 7: Some more cat cat Yeah exactly. 636 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 5: It's like, okay, all right, Murphy though, you call Murphy 637 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 5: and he comes right on, and I swear he loves it. 638 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 5: And we had him for probably two weeks and he 639 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 5: already learned his name. 640 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 4: Wow, which is pretty wild. This is Murphy. Oh oh Murphy. 641 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 7: This is drop kick Murphy. 642 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 13: Okay, so Ione running in the corner. Now it's more 643 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 13: of a trot. Okay, all right, all right, okay, I won't. 644 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 3: Call that a rum. 645 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: Definitely moving a little bit. But this is essentially like 646 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: the equivalent of me, like trying to beat the crosswalk 647 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: time yet the light, little dog and then I'm done 648 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: after ten seconds. 649 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's the weather. 650 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 5: This is more of a lazy day for them. The 651 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 5: sun is strong, so you probably in a little while 652 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 5: a lot of them will be laying laying down and sleeping. 653 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 2: Now you said, you know, you got to exercise them, 654 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 2: so left to their own devices, I guess they're not. 655 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: There's the media that you see about horses is always 656 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 1: about how much they are running all the time, and like, right, 657 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 1: there's movies. 658 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 5: Are you know seriously? Well, yeah, I watch even some 659 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 5: of the stuff, and you know, they're on these rides 660 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 5: throughout the United States, and I'm like, like, the horses 661 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 5: need to rest. 662 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 7: What hurt they? 663 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 5: Meanwhile, it's like a movie. I'm like, they better water 664 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 5: those horses soon. Probably one of the most animals that 665 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:01,479 Speaker 5: there's a lot of misconceptions about Yeah, people don't know 666 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 5: enough about them and the stuff that's out there for 667 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 5: the general public. Israeli miss misinformed. 668 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,760 Speaker 2: No such thing as produced by Manny Fidel, Norh Friedman 669 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 2: and Me Devin Joseph. Theme song by Manny This is 670 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 2: I've always been the first to say I love you 671 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 2: by certain self. Our guests this week were Aaron and 672 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 2: Jenny from the Bergen County Horse Rescue and Ren Hurts, 673 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,240 Speaker 2: who has a book out titled The Wisdom of Wildness. 674 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 2: Thanks to our friends for their notes. Julia Lindsay, Miata Graff, 675 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 2: Captaine Isaac, Sarah Floyd, and Truthy Mpja from Search Engine 676 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 2: visit no such thing that show to see photos of 677 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,360 Speaker 2: us with Murphy at the Bergen County Horse Rescue and 678 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,360 Speaker 2: some of our wild horses hate running merch that we 679 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 2: made back in twenty nineteen. 680 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 4: Time on no such thing right now. 681 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 7: I've got to give it. I think a one point five. 682 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,800 Speaker 4: Damn you said a lot of it is pretty hideous 683 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 4: to me. That's crazy.