WEBVTT - Cruising With Trans Guys

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, viewers.

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<v Speaker 2>Sniffy's Cruising Confessions is an explicit podcast about queer sex,

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<v Speaker 2>filtered dirty words and unfiltered descriptions of sexual activities. If

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<v Speaker 2>hearing about orgies, anonymous sex, kink, fetish, and more offends

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<v Speaker 2>your sensibilities, you might want to skip this. Viewer discretion

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<v Speaker 2>is advised. It's definitely not for kids.

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<v Speaker 3>So, Gabe, I have to ask, have you ever hooked

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<v Speaker 3>up with a gay trans dude? I am currently hooking

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<v Speaker 3>up with a bisexual one.

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<v Speaker 1>Does that count? Yes, they're on the spectrum. I love that. Yes.

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<v Speaker 4>No.

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<v Speaker 2>Me and my boyfriend have been dating for about seven years,

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<v Speaker 2>and I don't want to say a little over a year ago,

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<v Speaker 2>we met someone that we were very attracted to and

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<v Speaker 2>have sort of like we're not like Threpple status, but

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<v Speaker 2>you know, we're like kind of dating him knocking on

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<v Speaker 2>that door. We met in a very social, somewhat sexual setting,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I think it was very easy to like

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<v Speaker 2>make the introductions and be flirty and then we just

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<v Speaker 2>kind of started to.

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<v Speaker 1>Hang out outside of hooking ups. It's been a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of fun. Yeah, And I think I've also learned a

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<v Speaker 1>lot about.

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<v Speaker 2>The spectrum of the trans masculine experience through him. Not

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<v Speaker 2>that I ever make him educate me or that he's

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<v Speaker 2>had to, but it's like I think, when someone that

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<v Speaker 2>you care about is part of a community, and someone

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<v Speaker 2>that you're intimate with is part of a community, you're

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<v Speaker 2>going to learn about that community, and you should learn

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<v Speaker 2>about that community if you care about them.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>I have a lot of transmit in my community, and

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<v Speaker 3>I have definitely made out with quite a few and

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<v Speaker 3>like have birched that subject. But I find myself really

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<v Speaker 3>investigating whether this is a fetish or a desire and

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<v Speaker 3>really having to like and what has like prohibited me

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<v Speaker 3>from going that next step is like I have to

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<v Speaker 3>be very clear about where this is going and why

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<v Speaker 3>I'm doing it, what my intention is behind it, because

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<v Speaker 3>I don't ever want to get into a situation where

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<v Speaker 3>I'm fetishizing someone. Really, I have had it happen to

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<v Speaker 3>me for many years and it doesn't feel great, you know.

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<v Speaker 3>And so I'm knocking on that door, what.

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<v Speaker 1>Are you jiggling the handle? That's I am a little bit.

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<v Speaker 3>But then I also like get in my head and

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<v Speaker 3>there's like a fear around like.

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<v Speaker 1>How how do I do this?

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<v Speaker 3>How do I do this, you know, and you know,

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<v Speaker 3>I've got twenty five years experience, and so I don't want.

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<v Speaker 1>To look like a fool. No, I feel that.

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<v Speaker 2>But I feel like there are so many sexual scenarios

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<v Speaker 2>where I'm like, oh, this is new for me, right,

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<v Speaker 2>whether it's new partners, new experiences, new kinks, Like we

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<v Speaker 2>should constantly feel like we are learning in our sexual lives.

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<v Speaker 3>Sure, yeah, but like sometimes I just want to, like,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, feel like I'm good at something and like

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<v Speaker 3>new tricks.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, to do that in these situations, you gotta practice.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Okay, I know, I just gotta like rip the

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<v Speaker 3>bandaid off, so to speak, and just like do it.

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<v Speaker 3>And I do have some people that I feel really

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<v Speaker 3>safe with and we've had lots of conversations around this,

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<v Speaker 3>and I feel like I could do that.

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<v Speaker 1>But there, yeah, there's a little bit of fear there.

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<v Speaker 1>I got to walk through fear. That's it. Well, we're

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<v Speaker 1>walking through today.

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<v Speaker 2>Cruising in person or on the apps can be a

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<v Speaker 2>different experience for trans guys who hook up with other guys,

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<v Speaker 2>as today's guests have shared through their writing and work.

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<v Speaker 2>This episode, we're talking to filmmaker Jules Roscom about his

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<v Speaker 2>amazing new documentary film Desire Lines, which explores gay transsexuality

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<v Speaker 2>and history. Then we talked to kink educator Santos jay

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<v Speaker 2>I say about navigating the world of cruising, dating, and

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<v Speaker 2>sex as a trans gay man.

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<v Speaker 3>We'll get tips and tricks for both trans guys and

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<v Speaker 3>cisguys to improve your pickups and hookups online and in person.

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<v Speaker 2>Get ready today We're going cruising with trans guys. Welcome

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<v Speaker 2>to Stiffy's Cruising Confessions.

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<v Speaker 1>I am Gabe Gonzalez.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm Chris Patterson Rosso. Each week weeks for the Sublime

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<v Speaker 3>World of Queer sex, cruising and Relationships.

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<v Speaker 2>Will be talking to queer folks of all kinds. Ask

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<v Speaker 2>them questions, swap sex stories, share intimate revelations.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of us are discovering ourselves in cruising spaces.

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<v Speaker 1>This happened to me at this toilet stall, in the

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<v Speaker 1>library or the airport. I feel like everybody's gonna fuck

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<v Speaker 1>a little harder here.

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<v Speaker 3>Damn.

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<v Speaker 5>So I've been like the neighborhood flat and I took

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<v Speaker 5>pride in that I.

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<v Speaker 4>Was so afraid but yet so intrigued.

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<v Speaker 5>And the more I gave to him, the more he

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<v Speaker 5>could take.

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<v Speaker 3>If you're having sex on Sniffy's you already have a

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<v Speaker 3>moral deficit.

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<v Speaker 1>Over the weekend game.

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<v Speaker 3>And I watched this really amazing documentary called Desire Lines.

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<v Speaker 3>It's been screening at festivals all over the country.

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<v Speaker 2>Through a hybrid documentary and scripted approach, the film explores

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<v Speaker 2>how trans gay men understand and engage in their sexuality.

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<v Speaker 2>With a diverse cast of transman we're all very open

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<v Speaker 2>and honest about their experiences, both good and bad.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's take a look at the trailer.

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<v Speaker 4>Came to see you, doctor Paully, because I understood that

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<v Speaker 4>you are the reigning expert on the female to male

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<v Speaker 4>transsexual and I also understood that you had not met

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<v Speaker 4>or or heard of a female to male transsexual who

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<v Speaker 4>identified as a gay man. And that's exactly what I am,

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<v Speaker 4>and I want my story preserver.

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<v Speaker 6>You wanted to know what it's like in an actual bathhouse.

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<v Speaker 5>I've talked about it.

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<v Speaker 7>And so when I think about the early narratives of transnis,

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<v Speaker 7>it was like you were female to male or your

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<v Speaker 7>male to female and that skit and you're head of

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<v Speaker 7>a sexual. Then you started to see the like parentheses

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<v Speaker 7>of trans men and trans masculine folk who were engaging

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<v Speaker 7>with men, and it was like this big secret, and

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<v Speaker 7>I was like, why is it such a secret. We

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<v Speaker 7>were all doing it.

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<v Speaker 6>And so yeah, So I don't know, it's weird to

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<v Speaker 6>be like chicken out of the egg, Like, you know,

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<v Speaker 6>did the tea make me gay?

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<v Speaker 5>Was I always deftined to be interested in men?

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<v Speaker 3>Desire Lines was directed by Acclaim filmmaker Jules Roscomb, and

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<v Speaker 3>we were super excited to have him join us on

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<v Speaker 3>today's episode of Cruising Case Confessions.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome Jules.

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<v Speaker 2>We could not stop talking about this film. We're so

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<v Speaker 2>excited to talk to you about it. Where did this

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<v Speaker 2>film process begin for you? What was the genesis of

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<v Speaker 2>this idea?

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<v Speaker 6>I was actually thinking about making the film for almost

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<v Speaker 6>twenty years before I started making it, which is definitely

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<v Speaker 6>the longest I've spent thinking about a film before starting it.

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<v Speaker 6>And it really just came from my own experiences in

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<v Speaker 6>community with trans men and noticing how many of us

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<v Speaker 6>seem to develop attraction after coming out as trans, and

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<v Speaker 6>just being so fascinated by why that is, because I think,

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<v Speaker 6>in part, because you know, we were I would say

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<v Speaker 6>lesbian and gay activists of the nineties did so much

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<v Speaker 6>work to teach mostly sis straight people that gender and

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<v Speaker 6>sexuality were not the same thing, and yet they animate

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<v Speaker 6>each other. Right, because your sexuality is related to gender,

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<v Speaker 6>you are attracted to certain genders. Gender plays a part

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<v Speaker 6>in it, so they're not totally different. So I was like,

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<v Speaker 6>why is this happening for trans men? But it doesn't

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<v Speaker 6>seem to happen in the same way for trans women,

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<v Speaker 6>So it's something specific to trans masculinity. What is this about?

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<v Speaker 6>Why is this also a process that seems not just

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<v Speaker 6>like a joyous revelation, Oh my god, I'm attracted to men,

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<v Speaker 6>but somewhat fraught for a lot of transmen. And I

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<v Speaker 6>kind of was just waiting for someone else to make

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<v Speaker 6>the film, and then in twenty nineteen, I finally was like, Okay,

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<v Speaker 6>I guess it's going to be me. And I don't

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<v Speaker 6>make films to prove a point or with a predetermined thesis.

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<v Speaker 6>It's really emerges out of dialogue with other people and

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<v Speaker 6>from my community.

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<v Speaker 2>The doc begins with a quote from Lou Sullivan, an

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<v Speaker 2>author and activist and for those who don't know, one

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<v Speaker 2>of the first very visible transmen to come out as gay.

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<v Speaker 2>And the quote that opens a film is our best

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<v Speaker 2>weapon in coping with our situation is our imagination? Do

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<v Speaker 2>you think imagination plays in our conceptions around gender and sexuality.

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<v Speaker 6>It's maybe the most central role our imagination, and not

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<v Speaker 6>just around gender and sexuality, but for everyone who is

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<v Speaker 6>marginalized in this culture, who is looking for a better

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<v Speaker 6>or different version of the one we're currently attempting to survive.

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<v Speaker 6>Imagination is critical, and if you don't have a robust imagination,

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<v Speaker 6>you're not going to have a lot of fun with

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<v Speaker 6>either your gender or your sexuality. I think that's why

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<v Speaker 6>to me and so many other people who know about him,

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<v Speaker 6>Lou Sullivan's so. I mean, he's a revolutionary. Every time

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<v Speaker 6>I think about certain parts of his life and what

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<v Speaker 6>he did and the things he said, and how bold

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<v Speaker 6>he was, I get just like I get kind of

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<v Speaker 6>overwhelmed to think about what it was like to be

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<v Speaker 6>an out, gay trans man in the nineteen seventies. It's

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<v Speaker 6>hard enough now, and I just think about what Lou

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<v Speaker 6>went through and how he he didn't stop no matter

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<v Speaker 6>how many people told him he couldn't exist, or he

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<v Speaker 6>couldn't do what he wanted to do or be who

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<v Speaker 6>he wanted to be. He didn't take no for an answer.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I really love those archival interviews within the frame

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<v Speaker 2>narrative were so moving and like really helped frame the interviews. Earlier,

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<v Speaker 2>you were talking about how for some of the folks

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<v Speaker 2>you interviewed, realizing their attraction to men was a bit fraught.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm curious how many people did you interview who felt

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<v Speaker 2>at least a little embarrassed about admitting to themselves or

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<v Speaker 2>their friends that they wanted to have sex with men.

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<v Speaker 6>I mean, honestly, almost all of them were, you know,

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<v Speaker 6>experienced some period of either embarrassment, shame, disappointment. There's so

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<v Speaker 6>many other interviews that didn't end up in the film,

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<v Speaker 6>but one of them in particular was like a non binary,

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<v Speaker 6>trans masculine person who is literally afraid to take testosterone

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<v Speaker 6>because they're afraid it will quote unquote make them get

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<v Speaker 6>and they desperately do not want to be attracted to men.

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<v Speaker 6>They're very pleased with their attraction to women, and they

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<v Speaker 6>really are afraid of that attraction. It's not even the attraction,

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<v Speaker 6>but it's the sort of social political aspects of it.

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<v Speaker 6>Hashtag not all gay men, but there's a lot of

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<v Speaker 6>misogyny still deep in the game mel community and it's

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<v Speaker 6>you know, very dick focused, and it's still really working

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<v Speaker 6>on accepting trans men. So you know, I understand people's

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<v Speaker 6>fears and anxiety as I had my own for sure.

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<v Speaker 6>Deep ambivalence is about attractions. In some ways, it's not

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<v Speaker 6>that different than assist person coming out as gay. Right,

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<v Speaker 6>whether coming out as lesbian or as a gay man,

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<v Speaker 6>or as queer or whatever, we all have to fight

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<v Speaker 6>our individual demons around that, and so I just think

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<v Speaker 6>this is no different, though maybe a little bit more

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<v Speaker 6>confusing in some ways.

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<v Speaker 3>I want to talk a little bit about why you

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<v Speaker 3>chose the way you made the film, and what I

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<v Speaker 3>mean by that is, like, there's this narrative that's happening,

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<v Speaker 3>but then you're also splicing it with this documentary, and

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<v Speaker 3>like that was so impactful for me because they both

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<v Speaker 3>helped move the story along, and the way that you

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<v Speaker 3>wove them together so seamlessly was really beautiful.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you talk to me about that process.

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<v Speaker 6>I mean, in some ways you answered the question right.

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<v Speaker 6>It's that both modes of storytelling tell a story in

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<v Speaker 6>a different way, and they impact us differently. One might

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<v Speaker 6>be more intellectual, one might be more emotional, one might

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<v Speaker 6>be more sensual. Trying to sort of tell this complex story,

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<v Speaker 6>especially if we go back to your question earlier about

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<v Speaker 6>imagination that like these fantasy sequences, these sort of fever

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<v Speaker 6>dreams in the bath house, moving between the bath house

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<v Speaker 6>and the archive, but it wouldn't have been as compelling

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<v Speaker 6>to be done as a kind of straightforward doc. Trans

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<v Speaker 6>and queer content deserve trans and queer form. Otherwise you're

0:11:57.160 --> 0:12:00.640
<v Speaker 6>sticking around peg in a square hole or whatever that's saying.

0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:06.160
<v Speaker 8>Otherwise it just becomes becomes a straight story or a

0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:09.920
<v Speaker 8>straight narrative with trans and queer characters, and so we

0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:11.640
<v Speaker 8>have to tell our stories differently.

0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:14.480
<v Speaker 2>I was out last night with my partner who is

0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:17.520
<v Speaker 2>trans masculine, and his friend who is no binary trans masculine,

0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:19.920
<v Speaker 2>and we were at like a mixed queer and straight

0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:22.439
<v Speaker 2>sports bar, and one of them was like, I actually

0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:25.360
<v Speaker 2>prefer venues like this to the cat katakat gay bars.

0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:27.520
<v Speaker 2>They're like, I can't deal with the yes, Mama queen

0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:31.800
<v Speaker 2>bars because sometimes I do feel a bit alienated there.

0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:35.239
<v Speaker 2>So I'm curious about how you've maybe seen queer spaces,

0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:39.280
<v Speaker 2>specifically gay bars, sort of change and what you'd maybe

0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.040
<v Speaker 2>like to see change or for folks to keep in

0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:45.160
<v Speaker 2>mind in these spaces to be more trans inclusive, you know.

0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:48.160
<v Speaker 6>Thinking about when I was first sort of coming out

0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:50.880
<v Speaker 6>as trans in the early two thousands in New York

0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:56.000
<v Speaker 6>City and going to gay bars and having ninety nine

0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:59.040
<v Speaker 6>percent of the time really awful experiences. I would be

0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:03.360
<v Speaker 6>about to go home with someone or you know, sort

0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:05.440
<v Speaker 6>of hooking up with someone in a corner or just

0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:07.320
<v Speaker 6>chatting with someone or whatever, and then I have to

0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:09.800
<v Speaker 6>disclose that I'm trans, and all of a sudden, I'm she.

0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:12.880
<v Speaker 6>All of a sudden, I'm disgusting. All of a sudden,

0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:17.439
<v Speaker 6>like the whole mood changes. That's not my experience anymore.

0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:20.000
<v Speaker 6>I would notice a real shift, or starting around ten

0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:23.280
<v Speaker 6>years ago, of like I would go to Chicago or

0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:25.600
<v Speaker 6>San Francisco or somewhere else, like can I open up

0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:28.560
<v Speaker 6>a hookup app? And all of a sudden, it was

0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:32.920
<v Speaker 6>like people were interested, not it was more interest than

0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:35.679
<v Speaker 6>rather than what the fuck are you? Or why are

0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:39.320
<v Speaker 6>you on here? Or just like nasty comments or even

0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:42.680
<v Speaker 6>when it's not nasty comments, just ignorant comments. I think

0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:46.120
<v Speaker 6>that that's the biggest shift. Does one that some people

0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:48.680
<v Speaker 6>at least know in the gay male community, No transmen

0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:53.560
<v Speaker 6>exist now, I think most it's not confusing anymore. The

0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:56.880
<v Speaker 6>issue I've had in some of those kinds of spaces,

0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:00.360
<v Speaker 6>and I think this still persists, is there's really different

0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:03.560
<v Speaker 6>culture in gay mal culture are than there is and

0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:06.760
<v Speaker 6>say like queer women's culture about like bodies and consent

0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:09.120
<v Speaker 6>and touch. So I would walk into a gay bar

0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:11.880
<v Speaker 6>and someone would like go to grab my dick, and

0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:14.800
<v Speaker 6>then it's like literally without saying hi, you know, like

0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:18.520
<v Speaker 6>there's no it's like the boundaries are not quite there,

0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:21.720
<v Speaker 6>and the like consent forward culture isn't quite there. And

0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:24.640
<v Speaker 6>there's some times where that really works and it's hot,

0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:27.120
<v Speaker 6>and other times where it feels really dangerous and feels

0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:29.240
<v Speaker 6>like I'm not going to go into this space because

0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:31.560
<v Speaker 6>I don't want to get groped tonight, or I don't

0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:34.240
<v Speaker 6>want to have to cover conversation after you try to

0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:36.160
<v Speaker 6>put your hand down my pants or whatever. It is.

0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:39.960
<v Speaker 6>Almost every single time I talk to assist gay man

0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:43.520
<v Speaker 6>and there's like that in a sexual context, there's the

0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:46.800
<v Speaker 6>assumption that I'm a bottom because I'm a transman, and

0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:48.960
<v Speaker 6>for me, that doesn't happen to be true. And that's

0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:54.160
<v Speaker 6>my biggest block in relationships sexual relationships with gay man?

0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:57.600
<v Speaker 6>Is that assuming that all transmn are bottoms and then

0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:01.440
<v Speaker 6>going again back to this imagination thing when I'm like, no,

0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:04.840
<v Speaker 6>I'm not a bottom, then it's like, well I don't

0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:06.880
<v Speaker 6>understand how that could possibly work. And I'm like, well,

0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:09.680
<v Speaker 6>if you can't imagine, like if that's how like you know,

0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:13.560
<v Speaker 6>sad your imagination is, we're not going to have fun

0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:16.000
<v Speaker 6>sex anyway, regardless of who's on top or was on

0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:18.720
<v Speaker 6>the bottom, Like, so we're do it.

0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:21.800
<v Speaker 2>Was like, we have the technology, Like there's nothing more

0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.680
<v Speaker 2>exciting than when a partner comes over and brings out

0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:25.880
<v Speaker 2>a bag of dicks right.

0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:27.880
<v Speaker 1>From you.

0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:30.720
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, that's the kind of accommodation I could never

0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:31.960
<v Speaker 2>get who with a cis man?

0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:32.200
<v Speaker 5>Right?

0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:34.800
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, there are some days I'm willing to take more

0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:37.560
<v Speaker 3>than I and than others, and like having that option

0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:38.960
<v Speaker 3>is always wonderful.

0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:43.800
<v Speaker 6>Yes, we're like live transformers.

0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:47.960
<v Speaker 3>I've seen people put that in their bios now, putting

0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:51.440
<v Speaker 3>transformer in their bio. What do you think started the

0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:53.360
<v Speaker 3>shift that you mentioned about ten years ago?

0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:57.920
<v Speaker 6>A couple of things, one more transmen being out and

0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:01.040
<v Speaker 6>just so there being more numbers. I do think also

0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:04.960
<v Speaker 6>as even though these hookup apps can also be sites

0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:09.600
<v Speaker 6>of a lot of violence and you know, misogyny, transphobia, racism,

0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:12.080
<v Speaker 6>all the things we all know. They became the place

0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:13.960
<v Speaker 6>where the only place I was sort of willing to

0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:18.280
<v Speaker 6>engage with CIS men because I could just have it out.

0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:18.760
<v Speaker 1>I'm out.

0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:22.440
<v Speaker 6>I don't have to disclose halfway through the conversation or

0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:25.120
<v Speaker 6>halfway through a makeout or whatever it is. It was

0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:27.640
<v Speaker 6>just there and I'd rather just if you're going to

0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:31.280
<v Speaker 6>talk to me, you know. And then there's been a huge,

0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:35.720
<v Speaker 6>I think media explosion around trans folks in general, certainly

0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:39.800
<v Speaker 6>more about trans women or transfemininity than trans masculinity, but

0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.800
<v Speaker 6>trans masculinity in the last like I would say, three years,

0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:49.000
<v Speaker 6>has suddenly gotten way more attention and visibility, you know,

0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:52.320
<v Speaker 6>which also cuts both ways. But yeah, so I think

0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:56.440
<v Speaker 6>it's a confluence of things. And I think probably my

0:16:56.520 --> 0:17:00.000
<v Speaker 6>guess is that CIS men are also starting to you know,

0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:03.840
<v Speaker 6>are over the last decade having more relationships sexual, romantic, whatever,

0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:08.199
<v Speaker 6>with trans men telling their friends that we exist, that

0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:10.639
<v Speaker 6>we're fun, that we're you know, whatever it might be.

0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:12.359
<v Speaker 6>So I think, you know, it's like a little bit

0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:15.280
<v Speaker 6>of word of mouth to spreading in the community and

0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:17.440
<v Speaker 6>just getting more kind of knowledge and experience.

0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:20.840
<v Speaker 2>I will say we got we got quite quite hot

0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:22.920
<v Speaker 2>and bothered after watching the documentary. I know, we really

0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:25.120
<v Speaker 2>fell in love with this sort of bath house through line,

0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:25.639
<v Speaker 2>didn't we that?

0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:26.360
<v Speaker 1>I loved it.

0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:29.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I love a bath house, and so anytime there's

0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:32.639
<v Speaker 3>one portrayed for me, I'm like, let's do that. And

0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:34.960
<v Speaker 3>like New York doesn't really have any bathhouses anymore, so

0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:38.000
<v Speaker 3>I'm like longing for that bathhouse experience.

0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:41.560
<v Speaker 6>That was not part of my initial kind of conception

0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:44.800
<v Speaker 6>of the film, but it emerged out of the interviews

0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:48.720
<v Speaker 6>I did with the trans guys, and I was personally

0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:51.880
<v Speaker 6>very surprised to hear about how many of them had

0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:57.800
<v Speaker 6>had like really positive, transformative experiences in gay bath houses,

0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:00.240
<v Speaker 6>and that it was really an experience where they came

0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:04.560
<v Speaker 6>to understand their their bodies on a spectrum right, and

0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:07.000
<v Speaker 6>that in some ways their bodies didn't feel that different

0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:11.639
<v Speaker 6>than other than guy's bodies, and it was a place

0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:17.240
<v Speaker 6>where they experienced a lot more acceptance than say in

0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:21.240
<v Speaker 6>some like online spaces or other kind of bars or whatever.

0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:21.520
<v Speaker 5>I mean.

0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:25.000
<v Speaker 6>I think bathostos are just historically such a unique place

0:18:26.400 --> 0:18:31.119
<v Speaker 6>which is you know, not to over romanticize them and

0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:34.000
<v Speaker 6>to say they're without problem, because of course that's not true,

0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:38.720
<v Speaker 6>but they can be. I think these really interesting places

0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:45.119
<v Speaker 6>of cross racial, cross cross class, cross generational contact, and

0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:49.720
<v Speaker 6>places where people sometimes I think, actually end up in

0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:56.080
<v Speaker 6>sexual scenarios or with in sexual relationships with people that

0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:59.080
<v Speaker 6>if looking scrolling through an app, they wouldn't have quote

0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:02.880
<v Speaker 6>unquote chosen necessarily. But you're in a space and you're

0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:06.840
<v Speaker 6>feeling the energy, which is while we all those online

0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:09.239
<v Speaker 6>spaces for me are so hard because I'm like, you

0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:11.560
<v Speaker 6>might be hot and you might be saying hot things,

0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:13.159
<v Speaker 6>but if we get in the same space and the

0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:16.560
<v Speaker 6>energy isn't there, yeah, like the sexual energy, like what

0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:17.200
<v Speaker 6>are we doing?

0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:18.440
<v Speaker 1>Like now you know it?

0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:20.720
<v Speaker 6>Just yeah, exactly exactly.

0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:23.720
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean I love that moment where it's like

0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:25.520
<v Speaker 2>there's sort of the awkward chit chat and you can

0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:27.840
<v Speaker 2>feel the energy building and you're like, all right, when

0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:29.560
<v Speaker 2>when is this going.

0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:30.080
<v Speaker 1>To bubble over?

0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:32.640
<v Speaker 2>When is the green like totally right in a way

0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:35.439
<v Speaker 2>that you don't quite get that same excitement speaking with

0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:36.879
<v Speaker 2>somebody and then you show up in their ass up

0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:38.239
<v Speaker 2>and you're like, oh, well this is hot, but like

0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:41.800
<v Speaker 2>I enjoy the flirtation in the build a bit. I

0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:44.200
<v Speaker 2>want to be emotionally edged before we hook up.

0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:48.800
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah, all us talk

0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:51.159
<v Speaker 3>about bath houses. I have to know what was your

0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:52.440
<v Speaker 3>last experience at a bath house?

0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:54.720
<v Speaker 6>Like, I haven't been to very many, and I haven't

0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:57.240
<v Speaker 6>been in a long time actually, So when I was

0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:01.800
<v Speaker 6>making the film, at one point, I like set up

0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:06.280
<v Speaker 6>a Google voicemail where people could leave their bathouse confessions.

0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:10.359
<v Speaker 6>And I just remembered the most amazing story I had heard.

0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:16.600
<v Speaker 6>So this transasculine person who had was a gestational parent

0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:19.800
<v Speaker 6>and so had just had given birth I don't know,

0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:25.439
<v Speaker 6>maybe a year prior, and was chest feeding their child,

0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:29.000
<v Speaker 6>so had like milk coming, you know, was producing milk.

0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:34.400
<v Speaker 6>Went to bath house, went in, was in this room

0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:39.840
<v Speaker 6>like an orgy room, and was surrounded by maybe half

0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:45.520
<v Speaker 6>a dozen Cisca men who were undressing them and were

0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:48.560
<v Speaker 6>in various modes of you know, we're naked, we're jerking off,

0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:54.200
<v Speaker 6>we're having a good time. And they started like lactating

0:20:54.960 --> 0:21:01.000
<v Speaker 6>and we're just sort of squirting their milk everywhere, and

0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:05.879
<v Speaker 6>everyone was really into it, and it was amazing, and

0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:09.840
<v Speaker 6>I had so doubly wanted to film this scene for

0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:12.560
<v Speaker 6>the film, but I couldn't. We couldn't get it, get it,

0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:15.280
<v Speaker 6>get there. But I had just when they left this message,

0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:18.960
<v Speaker 6>like this is the best bathhouse story I have ever heard.

0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:22.840
<v Speaker 6>And I just love the image of like a transmasculine

0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:27.840
<v Speaker 6>person who's lactating and there's like ciscay men holding their dicks,

0:21:27.880 --> 0:21:31.320
<v Speaker 6>jerking off, like living for this moment, Like it's just amazing.

0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:33.520
<v Speaker 2>You really have one idea of what a bathhouse is

0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:36.480
<v Speaker 2>going to be, and it's a different spot every night,

0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:38.800
<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean. Like it's like you said,

0:21:38.800 --> 0:21:42.320
<v Speaker 2>it's it's places where different journeys and communities intersect in

0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:43.879
<v Speaker 2>really fun and surprising ways.

0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:45.239
<v Speaker 1>And it's like, you know what I mean.

0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:47.480
<v Speaker 2>If somebody would put like I'm lactating, come drink off

0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:49.400
<v Speaker 2>to me lactating, I'm sure a lot of people would

0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:50.399
<v Speaker 2>have been like what O.

0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:53.600
<v Speaker 1>But then doing a person seeing a person? Right, they

0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:57.520
<v Speaker 1>were like, wait, I love this. That is incredible. That's

0:21:57.560 --> 0:21:58.840
<v Speaker 1>so cool.

0:21:58.960 --> 0:22:02.720
<v Speaker 6>You're like, they're like, I like watching bodily fluids come

0:22:02.800 --> 0:22:05.960
<v Speaker 6>out of some one's body part, and who would have thought,

0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:09.879
<v Speaker 6>but I'm into this body part ejaculating also so here

0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:10.960
<v Speaker 6>we go, Here we go.

0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:16.880
<v Speaker 2>Everybody in the room is leaking somehow, right, Yeah, I

0:22:16.960 --> 0:22:18.320
<v Speaker 2>truly feel like we could sit here and talk to

0:22:18.359 --> 0:22:20.680
<v Speaker 2>you for hours. This is fascinating. Where can people see

0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:22.439
<v Speaker 2>the film this summer and where can they find you

0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:23.240
<v Speaker 2>on social media?

0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:28.439
<v Speaker 6>Jules Roskam Films and then desire linesfilm dot com is

0:22:28.480 --> 0:22:31.600
<v Speaker 6>our website. I hope to see you guys at are

0:22:31.600 --> 0:22:33.440
<v Speaker 6>screening sometime soon.

0:22:33.880 --> 0:22:35.720
<v Speaker 3>All right, when we come back, we'll be getting tips

0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:38.080
<v Speaker 3>and tricks from both CIS and trans gay men to

0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:40.400
<v Speaker 3>have better and hotter interactions and sex.

0:22:42.240 --> 0:22:45.000
<v Speaker 2>Our next guest is a leather Daddy, a musician and

0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:47.879
<v Speaker 2>the host of the kink Punks podcast, where he and

0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:51.919
<v Speaker 2>his co host August provide holistic, ethical, kink aware, pleasure

0:22:52.000 --> 0:22:55.159
<v Speaker 2>focused sex ad for trans masculine and adjacent people.

0:22:55.640 --> 0:22:58.680
<v Speaker 3>He is one of the organizers of transferno, Y's first

0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:00.200
<v Speaker 3>trans mask centered sex part.

0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:01.600
<v Speaker 1>Please welcome Santos.

0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:04.800
<v Speaker 2>Jay Santos, I wanted to kick us off by talking

0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:07.119
<v Speaker 2>a little bit about an article you wrote for the

0:23:07.160 --> 0:23:09.640
<v Speaker 2>publication Them in February this year.

0:23:10.000 --> 0:23:10.600
<v Speaker 1>It was great.

0:23:10.880 --> 0:23:13.119
<v Speaker 2>This is an article about the what you call the

0:23:13.160 --> 0:23:16.840
<v Speaker 2>complicated reality of being trans mask on apps. What are

0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:19.480
<v Speaker 2>your experiences in this realm and what prompted you to

0:23:19.520 --> 0:23:20.200
<v Speaker 2>write this piece.

0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:22.439
<v Speaker 5>My experiences on the apps have a lot to do

0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:27.119
<v Speaker 5>with my experience, right, so, like as in, I've been

0:23:27.160 --> 0:23:31.440
<v Speaker 5>in this life for almost twenty years, and I kind

0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:33.399
<v Speaker 5>of at this point kind of know how to handle

0:23:33.440 --> 0:23:37.199
<v Speaker 5>myself and I don't settle. So that's pretty much how

0:23:37.840 --> 0:23:40.760
<v Speaker 5>I navigate these things. And that has a lot to

0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:42.480
<v Speaker 5>do with the kind of education that I want to

0:23:42.840 --> 0:23:47.439
<v Speaker 5>put out there, because if I can help folks trust

0:23:47.440 --> 0:23:49.840
<v Speaker 5>their gut and trust themselves, you know, we can all

0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:51.919
<v Speaker 5>mitigate like a little bit of harm and also like

0:23:52.480 --> 0:23:54.879
<v Speaker 5>really promote a lot more pleasure for other people. Sometimes

0:23:54.880 --> 0:23:56.880
<v Speaker 5>folks will be crude and people will be like, oh,

0:23:56.920 --> 0:23:59.040
<v Speaker 5>so you're a woman, I want to fuck your pussy

0:23:59.160 --> 0:24:02.520
<v Speaker 5>or whatever, and it's just like it feels really irrelevant

0:24:02.840 --> 0:24:09.120
<v Speaker 5>to me. First off, No, a lot of like transmand

0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:12.920
<v Speaker 5>and transpasculine people who aren't super savvy don't realize that

0:24:12.920 --> 0:24:15.040
<v Speaker 5>if somebody's really pushy on the apps, they're going to

0:24:15.080 --> 0:24:16.120
<v Speaker 5>be ten times pushy or in.

0:24:16.080 --> 0:24:18.480
<v Speaker 1>Bed, which is terrifying.

0:24:18.640 --> 0:24:22.200
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, yeah, totally, But you know, thankfully there there are

0:24:22.920 --> 0:24:26.920
<v Speaker 5>you know, good like good things do happen. I've met

0:24:27.280 --> 0:24:30.960
<v Speaker 5>some wonderful subs, some wonderful play partners for some people

0:24:31.000 --> 0:24:33.639
<v Speaker 5>that's like played out for several years. It's just like

0:24:33.720 --> 0:24:37.520
<v Speaker 5>lots of really nice chemistry, you know, and some of

0:24:37.560 --> 0:24:40.600
<v Speaker 5>the chemistry is like led to deeper relationships and some

0:24:40.640 --> 0:24:43.439
<v Speaker 5>of the chemistry has just led to reliable hookups every

0:24:43.480 --> 0:24:44.080
<v Speaker 5>once in a while.

0:24:44.880 --> 0:24:46.240
<v Speaker 1>We talked about not settling.

0:24:47.000 --> 0:24:48.959
<v Speaker 3>What was the conversation you have with yourself where you

0:24:48.960 --> 0:24:50.760
<v Speaker 3>were just like, I'm not going to settle, and this

0:24:50.880 --> 0:24:52.040
<v Speaker 3>is what settling looks like.

0:24:52.200 --> 0:24:54.440
<v Speaker 5>Before I learned how to cruise, I had different partners.

0:24:54.840 --> 0:24:58.199
<v Speaker 5>I kind of learned through them that you know, the

0:24:58.200 --> 0:25:00.600
<v Speaker 5>more you ask for what you want, the more you

0:25:00.640 --> 0:25:02.639
<v Speaker 5>get what you want. And it wasn't until I was

0:25:02.680 --> 0:25:05.800
<v Speaker 5>about thirty five I'm forty three now that I was

0:25:05.880 --> 0:25:09.040
<v Speaker 5>able to consistently ask for what I want. And still

0:25:09.040 --> 0:25:10.960
<v Speaker 5>it's a little bit of a struggle, you know, and

0:25:11.040 --> 0:25:13.800
<v Speaker 5>taking up space just you know, we're not encouraged to

0:25:13.800 --> 0:25:17.879
<v Speaker 5>take up space in general as human beings, but really

0:25:17.960 --> 0:25:22.320
<v Speaker 5>like giving yourself permission to take up space and giving

0:25:22.359 --> 0:25:26.120
<v Speaker 5>yourself permission to ask for what you want. I mean,

0:25:26.520 --> 0:25:29.280
<v Speaker 5>that's kind of in my mind, one of the main

0:25:29.480 --> 0:25:33.800
<v Speaker 5>things is like entitlement in cruising. You know, there's a

0:25:33.840 --> 0:25:37.880
<v Speaker 5>lot of entitlement to touch in shared spaces, and there's

0:25:37.920 --> 0:25:40.840
<v Speaker 5>a lot of entitlement to ask. But then those of

0:25:40.880 --> 0:25:43.359
<v Speaker 5>us who care a little more, I think, don't always

0:25:43.359 --> 0:25:47.080
<v Speaker 5>feel that entitlement. So I think that like giving yourself

0:25:47.119 --> 0:25:51.399
<v Speaker 5>that equal entitlement helps you know not to settle. Also,

0:25:52.040 --> 0:25:55.240
<v Speaker 5>I feel like I have settled when I feel like

0:25:55.280 --> 0:25:59.400
<v Speaker 5>I can't do better, or like I'm impatient or whatever.

0:26:00.119 --> 0:26:02.840
<v Speaker 5>And you know, I've just learned a certain amount of

0:26:02.840 --> 0:26:05.520
<v Speaker 5>patients because a lot of times when I settle, I

0:26:05.560 --> 0:26:06.600
<v Speaker 5>don't get what I want.

0:26:06.440 --> 0:26:09.879
<v Speaker 3>Anyway, No, same, And I think this idea of like

0:26:10.760 --> 0:26:14.560
<v Speaker 3>accepting that you can be entitled is revolutionary for me.

0:26:14.840 --> 0:26:17.439
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, because like, as a.

0:26:16.920 --> 0:26:20.360
<v Speaker 3>Black queer person, even in the cruising space, I've never

0:26:20.440 --> 0:26:20.920
<v Speaker 3>felt like.

0:26:20.880 --> 0:26:22.440
<v Speaker 1>I could be entitled to anything.

0:26:22.600 --> 0:26:26.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And so giving myself permission to have that entitlement,

0:26:26.200 --> 0:26:27.280
<v Speaker 3>I'm running with that.

0:26:27.480 --> 0:26:29.880
<v Speaker 5>Yeah. I mean, if we could all be as entitled

0:26:29.880 --> 0:26:31.240
<v Speaker 5>as a mediocre white man, that.

0:26:31.160 --> 0:26:35.600
<v Speaker 2>Wi ha oh, So send those I think one of

0:26:35.640 --> 0:26:38.280
<v Speaker 2>the most powerful parts of this article is where you

0:26:38.320 --> 0:26:40.600
<v Speaker 2>discuss your body and kind of have this moment of

0:26:40.640 --> 0:26:42.879
<v Speaker 2>affirmation explaining that your body doesn't need to meet anyone

0:26:42.880 --> 0:26:46.280
<v Speaker 2>else's standards, right part of this deciding not to settle.

0:26:47.080 --> 0:26:50.720
<v Speaker 2>Did engaging with people on apps make it harder to

0:26:50.880 --> 0:26:53.440
<v Speaker 2>realize that you don't need to meet anyone else's standards,

0:26:53.520 --> 0:26:56.120
<v Speaker 2>or did it in some roundabout way help you make

0:26:56.160 --> 0:26:56.840
<v Speaker 2>this realization.

0:26:57.359 --> 0:27:00.320
<v Speaker 5>One of the things about being on the app apps

0:27:00.760 --> 0:27:05.480
<v Speaker 5>is the the absolute crudeness, right, which is honestly part

0:27:05.480 --> 0:27:06.480
<v Speaker 5>of why we're there for it.

0:27:06.600 --> 0:27:06.800
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:27:07.080 --> 0:27:12.199
<v Speaker 5>Also, I think rejection is just data, you know, right,

0:27:13.200 --> 0:27:16.720
<v Speaker 5>And it's not even about you, like it's it's it's

0:27:16.800 --> 0:27:21.359
<v Speaker 5>how other people perceive you from their background, et cetera.

0:27:21.640 --> 0:27:26.960
<v Speaker 5>Getting rejected a lot and trying to acquiesce to other

0:27:27.000 --> 0:27:31.720
<v Speaker 5>people's needs or et cetera. Like just it doesn't it

0:27:31.760 --> 0:27:33.760
<v Speaker 5>doesn't get you far. And if you hit that wall

0:27:34.080 --> 0:27:36.880
<v Speaker 5>enough times, you know you kind of you're just like, wait,

0:27:36.920 --> 0:27:39.000
<v Speaker 5>what fuck it? Like what do I want? I feel

0:27:39.040 --> 0:27:40.720
<v Speaker 5>like that's an important point to reach.

0:27:41.160 --> 0:27:43.479
<v Speaker 2>I'm curious how do things differ for you when you

0:27:43.520 --> 0:27:46.280
<v Speaker 2>get to the in person cruising scenario versus the apps.

0:27:46.400 --> 0:27:48.919
<v Speaker 5>I mean, I started out in person cruising at Glory

0:27:48.920 --> 0:27:53.359
<v Speaker 5>Holes because of the anonymity. It's really basic. But the

0:27:53.400 --> 0:27:56.040
<v Speaker 5>first time I heard suck that dick boy, I was

0:27:56.160 --> 0:27:58.840
<v Speaker 5>just like, this is this is perfect, this is music

0:27:58.840 --> 0:28:04.679
<v Speaker 5>to my ears. That affirmation and that curiosity led me

0:28:04.920 --> 0:28:11.160
<v Speaker 5>to start going to sex parties eventually. So there's kind

0:28:11.160 --> 0:28:13.600
<v Speaker 5>of this Spidey sense where you're like, that guy is

0:28:13.640 --> 0:28:16.760
<v Speaker 5>looking at me, and if I look back at him,

0:28:17.280 --> 0:28:20.040
<v Speaker 5>he's going to look back at me again, which means

0:28:20.920 --> 0:28:23.720
<v Speaker 5>I should probably talk to him. And if you just

0:28:23.800 --> 0:28:26.120
<v Speaker 5>talk to somebody like that, you know, you end up

0:28:26.680 --> 0:28:29.080
<v Speaker 5>in lots of fun trouble if you want to be.

0:28:29.640 --> 0:28:32.880
<v Speaker 5>Getting a handle on that, and just understanding that sex

0:28:32.960 --> 0:28:37.119
<v Speaker 5>is available, you know, makes things like sex parties and

0:28:37.200 --> 0:28:41.480
<v Speaker 5>such a lot easier. Before I really started transition, it

0:28:41.520 --> 0:28:44.120
<v Speaker 5>was hard for me to relate to other people because

0:28:44.160 --> 0:28:47.720
<v Speaker 5>I didn't really understand the vector from which my personality

0:28:47.800 --> 0:28:51.440
<v Speaker 5>was going to. So it's kind of like, if I'm

0:28:51.480 --> 0:28:55.880
<v Speaker 5>this spectral entity who like doesn't really understand where I

0:28:55.920 --> 0:28:58.720
<v Speaker 5>fit within gender, how can I interact with other people.

0:29:00.480 --> 0:29:01.160
<v Speaker 1>Authentically?

0:29:01.400 --> 0:29:05.480
<v Speaker 5>Yes, exactly exactly. Getting myself right with myself kind of

0:29:05.520 --> 0:29:08.000
<v Speaker 5>helped me figure out how to cruise.

0:29:08.200 --> 0:29:10.440
<v Speaker 2>What advice do you have for folks who do want

0:29:10.440 --> 0:29:14.320
<v Speaker 2>to start cruising based on what cruising spaces look like today, I.

0:29:14.280 --> 0:29:17.280
<v Speaker 5>Would say one of my first things is some folks

0:29:17.280 --> 0:29:20.440
<v Speaker 5>are coming from Saffik backgrounds, and some folks are just

0:29:20.520 --> 0:29:24.120
<v Speaker 5>like not necessarily coming from any particular queer background in general,

0:29:24.440 --> 0:29:28.320
<v Speaker 5>and they're not used to being touched without being approached

0:29:28.320 --> 0:29:32.480
<v Speaker 5>about it first, being aware that that is a frequent

0:29:32.720 --> 0:29:37.120
<v Speaker 5>occurrence in gay male spaces, and to be to be

0:29:37.200 --> 0:29:40.320
<v Speaker 5>ready for that. You can always just push somebody's hand away,

0:29:40.920 --> 0:29:43.200
<v Speaker 5>And that goes back to the entitlement, right. That goes

0:29:43.240 --> 0:29:46.400
<v Speaker 5>back to asking for what you want. Another thing is

0:29:46.560 --> 0:29:50.800
<v Speaker 5>get your vaccines, take your meds. You know, risk means

0:29:50.800 --> 0:29:53.880
<v Speaker 5>that it can happen to you, and you know there

0:29:53.960 --> 0:29:58.520
<v Speaker 5>isn't any STI that is not treatable, and it's it's

0:29:58.600 --> 0:30:01.600
<v Speaker 5>just a thing that happens and it's totally fine. I

0:30:01.640 --> 0:30:05.200
<v Speaker 5>really think it's important to value yourself. A lot of

0:30:05.200 --> 0:30:12.480
<v Speaker 5>people are afraid to go into gay spaces because they

0:30:12.520 --> 0:30:17.440
<v Speaker 5>are afraid of not being affirmed and afraid of people gatekeeping.

0:30:18.400 --> 0:30:24.160
<v Speaker 5>And if people are gatekeeping, they're not hot period period.

0:30:25.200 --> 0:30:27.920
<v Speaker 5>If somebody is rejecting you, they're helping you dodge a bullet.

0:30:27.960 --> 0:30:29.560
<v Speaker 5>Because it wouldn't have been hot with them anyway.

0:30:29.720 --> 0:30:32.000
<v Speaker 3>Yes, what advice would you give to a ciscay man

0:30:32.040 --> 0:30:34.440
<v Speaker 3>who's looking to look up a transascular men?

0:30:34.720 --> 0:30:39.800
<v Speaker 5>Trans Men are men, right, and which seems obvious, but

0:30:39.840 --> 0:30:44.080
<v Speaker 5>it's it's it bears repeating. And also not all transvasculine

0:30:44.120 --> 0:30:46.880
<v Speaker 5>people are men, right, but those of us who do

0:30:47.000 --> 0:30:51.120
<v Speaker 5>identify as men are men. Early in transition, I felt

0:30:51.200 --> 0:30:55.160
<v Speaker 5>like I was, you know, a girl becoming a man,

0:30:55.520 --> 0:30:58.520
<v Speaker 5>you know, And then later on I was like, wait

0:30:58.560 --> 0:31:01.800
<v Speaker 5>a minute, I was I you know, corrected and corrected

0:31:01.840 --> 0:31:05.120
<v Speaker 5>and corrected or coursed and course to coursed every single

0:31:05.200 --> 0:31:09.320
<v Speaker 5>day growing up. I didn't actually get to expand into

0:31:09.400 --> 0:31:12.160
<v Speaker 5>this boyhood that was right there, right in front of me.

0:31:12.760 --> 0:31:15.440
<v Speaker 5>And then I understood, you know, after you know, a

0:31:15.480 --> 0:31:19.840
<v Speaker 5>long time that I was boil along. So it feels

0:31:19.960 --> 0:31:23.600
<v Speaker 5>very much for me like less of going from one

0:31:23.640 --> 0:31:28.960
<v Speaker 5>gender to another and more like awakening from gas lighting

0:31:29.800 --> 0:31:33.720
<v Speaker 5>and settling into the thing that I always was. Everybody's

0:31:33.760 --> 0:31:37.080
<v Speaker 5>got a different experience of their gender. But if we

0:31:37.280 --> 0:31:39.840
<v Speaker 5>think of it in that way or other ways that

0:31:39.880 --> 0:31:42.320
<v Speaker 5>are presented to us, you know, we can really take

0:31:42.360 --> 0:31:45.640
<v Speaker 5>the heart that yes, transmit are men. So that's the

0:31:45.960 --> 0:31:48.920
<v Speaker 5>place that I always want to start with that. So

0:31:49.360 --> 0:31:54.840
<v Speaker 5>another thing is be curious, ask people, ask people what

0:31:54.880 --> 0:31:58.880
<v Speaker 5>they like, what they're into. You can ask people, how

0:31:58.880 --> 0:32:01.480
<v Speaker 5>do you like to be touched? You can you know,

0:32:01.480 --> 0:32:03.520
<v Speaker 5>if you want to be subby, you can say, put

0:32:03.520 --> 0:32:05.160
<v Speaker 5>my hands where you want them, or put my dick

0:32:05.160 --> 0:32:08.480
<v Speaker 5>where you want it or whatever. Just being open to

0:32:08.680 --> 0:32:13.960
<v Speaker 5>lots of possibilities and speaking of possibilities, transmend and transpasculine

0:32:13.960 --> 0:32:18.880
<v Speaker 5>people may have a variety of different procedures and hormones,

0:32:19.320 --> 0:32:23.520
<v Speaker 5>et cetera that that our bodies may be, you know,

0:32:23.640 --> 0:32:28.360
<v Speaker 5>that we may use on our bodies. So I there's

0:32:28.400 --> 0:32:31.760
<v Speaker 5>there's this, uh, there's this idea that you know, trans

0:32:31.800 --> 0:32:35.640
<v Speaker 5>men are these like merman, you know, like we've we've

0:32:35.800 --> 0:32:38.920
<v Speaker 5>we've got we've got, uh, you know, our our top

0:32:39.000 --> 0:32:43.040
<v Speaker 5>chop and then we've got like, you know, our our

0:32:43.120 --> 0:32:46.120
<v Speaker 5>pussy's there, you know. And and also that's not a

0:32:46.160 --> 0:32:51.480
<v Speaker 5>word that everybody loves. But yeah, so so yeah, I

0:32:51.480 --> 0:32:55.320
<v Speaker 5>mean there's lots of different, lots of different possibilities. Lots

0:32:55.360 --> 0:32:57.560
<v Speaker 5>of people get lower surgery, lots of people don't get

0:32:57.720 --> 0:33:01.000
<v Speaker 5>top surgery. Some people have hormones, some people get hormones,

0:33:01.000 --> 0:33:04.920
<v Speaker 5>some people don't. So there's lots of different possibilities in

0:33:05.000 --> 0:33:08.400
<v Speaker 5>terms of that and just keeping an open mind, you know.

0:33:08.640 --> 0:33:11.800
<v Speaker 5>And you know, lots of people have sex and lots

0:33:11.840 --> 0:33:14.240
<v Speaker 5>of different ways, and some of it relates to gender,

0:33:14.640 --> 0:33:17.560
<v Speaker 5>and some of it relates to just different preferences in general,

0:33:17.760 --> 0:33:21.160
<v Speaker 5>and also abilities, like lots of people with disabilities have

0:33:21.320 --> 0:33:24.280
<v Speaker 5>to have sex in different ways. Other things would be

0:33:24.920 --> 0:33:29.200
<v Speaker 5>wash your damn hands, wash your damn dick. If I'm

0:33:29.480 --> 0:33:32.240
<v Speaker 5>you know, at a play party or at a sex party,

0:33:33.080 --> 0:33:34.200
<v Speaker 5>you know, I want to make sure that a dick

0:33:34.240 --> 0:33:36.680
<v Speaker 5>hasn't been in an ass before it's going inside of me.

0:33:36.760 --> 0:33:40.320
<v Speaker 5>That's very important. It's really important to be aware that

0:33:40.440 --> 0:33:43.520
<v Speaker 5>like t is not birth control, to stopsterone is not

0:33:43.560 --> 0:33:44.160
<v Speaker 5>birth control?

0:33:44.320 --> 0:33:46.040
<v Speaker 1>Yes, yeah, so what are.

0:33:45.880 --> 0:33:48.680
<v Speaker 5>You doing for that? Are you having that conversation? Do

0:33:48.720 --> 0:33:51.440
<v Speaker 5>you have a vasectomy if you're just gonna like go raw.

0:33:51.800 --> 0:33:54.360
<v Speaker 5>So there's lots of different things to think about. And

0:33:54.640 --> 0:33:59.600
<v Speaker 5>also some people do need to use condoms because they're

0:34:00.040 --> 0:34:05.160
<v Speaker 5>you know, delicate ecosystems will react badly to new stimuli,

0:34:05.240 --> 0:34:07.720
<v Speaker 5>you know, or like new new things going into them.

0:34:08.320 --> 0:34:13.560
<v Speaker 5>But not everybody uses their front hole. And let's see

0:34:13.840 --> 0:34:17.520
<v Speaker 5>in terms of in terms of oral anything that is

0:34:17.560 --> 0:34:20.160
<v Speaker 5>presented to you as a dick, treat it like a dick.

0:34:20.680 --> 0:34:22.440
<v Speaker 5>So that could be fingers, that could be a dildo,

0:34:22.520 --> 0:34:25.600
<v Speaker 5>that could be like a phallus on the person's body.

0:34:26.400 --> 0:34:29.080
<v Speaker 5>Treat it like a dick. Don't treat it like a clitterius,

0:34:30.200 --> 0:34:34.560
<v Speaker 5>and you know you'll probably be fine. Check in with

0:34:34.600 --> 0:34:38.319
<v Speaker 5>the person. Whenever I have sex with a guy who

0:34:38.320 --> 0:34:41.360
<v Speaker 5>hasn't had sex with a trans guy before, like a

0:34:41.440 --> 0:34:43.440
<v Speaker 5>sis guy who hasn't had sex with a trans guy before,

0:34:43.640 --> 0:34:47.480
<v Speaker 5>I'm usually like, you fucked a guy, right, And they're like, yeah,

0:34:47.960 --> 0:34:52.880
<v Speaker 5>Like you'll be fine. Just treat me like a guy. Yeah, exactly,

0:34:53.920 --> 0:34:56.520
<v Speaker 5>You've got it, you know. So you know, if you're

0:34:56.520 --> 0:34:59.600
<v Speaker 5>going from back to front, I'm gonna stop you. But

0:35:00.040 --> 0:35:02.600
<v Speaker 5>you know, there are little things like that, little little

0:35:03.120 --> 0:35:05.239
<v Speaker 5>you know, things to be aware of, but overall, just

0:35:05.320 --> 0:35:07.759
<v Speaker 5>like if you are having sex with a man, just

0:35:07.760 --> 0:35:09.920
<v Speaker 5>treat him like a man and it'll be fine.

0:35:10.320 --> 0:35:12.960
<v Speaker 3>So I have to ask, as a person who kind

0:35:13.000 --> 0:35:15.759
<v Speaker 3>of struggles with this myself, how do you deal with

0:35:15.840 --> 0:35:17.719
<v Speaker 3>chasers and fetishizing right?

0:35:17.760 --> 0:35:19.960
<v Speaker 1>How do you navigate that?

0:35:20.040 --> 0:35:24.800
<v Speaker 3>Because I find myself really interested in having connections with transmit.

0:35:25.400 --> 0:35:29.120
<v Speaker 3>But I don't I worry if I'm fetishizing or if

0:35:29.120 --> 0:35:32.680
<v Speaker 3>I'm chasing, right, and how do I what's that line?

0:35:32.719 --> 0:35:34.759
<v Speaker 3>And how do you navigate that? Yeah, that's really.

0:35:34.719 --> 0:35:40.879
<v Speaker 5>Cool, lots of answers. If I feel like I am

0:35:41.000 --> 0:35:45.360
<v Speaker 5>the only thing standing between some guy and my genitals,

0:35:46.000 --> 0:35:49.680
<v Speaker 5>that's what being chased feels like, you know, like it's

0:35:49.719 --> 0:35:54.080
<v Speaker 5>not about me, it's about what he wants, what he expects. Right,

0:35:54.840 --> 0:35:57.120
<v Speaker 5>So if that's not the vibe that you're coming from,

0:35:57.640 --> 0:35:58.880
<v Speaker 5>you're probably not chasing.

0:35:59.400 --> 0:36:03.480
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So like I just needed to hear it from you.

0:36:04.600 --> 0:36:09.040
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, so I I have every confidence that that you'll

0:36:09.080 --> 0:36:09.480
<v Speaker 5>be fine.

0:36:10.560 --> 0:36:12.320
<v Speaker 1>We can't put it to the test soon. Don't worry.

0:36:12.760 --> 0:36:14.480
<v Speaker 1>There will be parties coming up. We got you.

0:36:15.040 --> 0:36:18.960
<v Speaker 5>Frankly, for chasers, like actual chasers, I feel like there's

0:36:19.120 --> 0:36:24.640
<v Speaker 5>there is a very select, narrow slot, no pun intending I.

0:36:24.680 --> 0:36:25.960
<v Speaker 1>Was going to say where.

0:36:27.520 --> 0:36:33.000
<v Speaker 5>Now, Yeah, so a very a very select, like very

0:36:33.080 --> 0:36:36.280
<v Speaker 5>narrow place where that where that fits if you feel

0:36:36.480 --> 0:36:41.759
<v Speaker 5>good taking out the adoration from that, which is complicated

0:36:41.840 --> 0:36:43.560
<v Speaker 5>because it comes with a lot of ship that people

0:36:43.560 --> 0:36:46.319
<v Speaker 5>don't want to hear, right, so basically like I don't

0:36:46.320 --> 0:36:47.600
<v Speaker 5>want to hear about my body. I don't want to

0:36:47.600 --> 0:36:49.960
<v Speaker 5>hear about what you want really because it's like fucked up.

0:36:50.440 --> 0:36:53.520
<v Speaker 5>But the experience of just taking off your clothes and

0:36:53.560 --> 0:36:56.400
<v Speaker 5>having somebody go, oh my god, that's amazing, you know,

0:36:56.880 --> 0:36:59.520
<v Speaker 5>like just that kind of thing. They're not marveling in you,

0:36:59.560 --> 0:37:04.040
<v Speaker 5>They're marvel in their fetish If you can pause wanting

0:37:04.080 --> 0:37:07.520
<v Speaker 5>to be seen, you know, if it's not important to

0:37:07.560 --> 0:37:10.160
<v Speaker 5>you to be seen by someone and just to take

0:37:10.520 --> 0:37:13.920
<v Speaker 5>take everything at face value, then that works, you know,

0:37:14.160 --> 0:37:17.279
<v Speaker 5>Like I've I've definitely had lots of lots and lots

0:37:17.320 --> 0:37:20.879
<v Speaker 5>of sex that was like that, but also like if

0:37:20.920 --> 0:37:23.279
<v Speaker 5>that's not something you can do, it's not gonna be fun. No.

0:37:23.320 --> 0:37:25.560
<v Speaker 2>I appreciate you delineating that because I think, as you said,

0:37:25.600 --> 0:37:28.759
<v Speaker 2>it's like there, and I mean, I think this can

0:37:28.760 --> 0:37:31.759
<v Speaker 2>apply to so many sexual scenarios. There's sort of a

0:37:31.960 --> 0:37:36.480
<v Speaker 2>fine line between adoration, affirmation, and fetishizing, and I think

0:37:36.480 --> 0:37:39.440
<v Speaker 2>the way you phrased that difference is like such a

0:37:39.560 --> 0:37:41.759
<v Speaker 2>clear delineation that I think folks can walk away with

0:37:41.760 --> 0:37:42.920
<v Speaker 2>and be like, oh yeah, am I.

0:37:42.920 --> 0:37:43.760
<v Speaker 1>Hoogab with a person?

0:37:43.840 --> 0:37:46.239
<v Speaker 2>Or am I hoogay with a person because I'm fetishizing

0:37:46.280 --> 0:37:48.720
<v Speaker 2>a body part, their colors, their skin, their gender identity,

0:37:48.719 --> 0:37:49.560
<v Speaker 2>their genitals.

0:37:49.600 --> 0:37:50.520
<v Speaker 1>Like that's yeah.

0:37:50.600 --> 0:37:58.120
<v Speaker 5>Yeah. Fetishizing is often you transplanting your your idea of

0:37:58.120 --> 0:38:00.960
<v Speaker 5>what you want onto a person. So I mean, if

0:38:01.000 --> 0:38:04.200
<v Speaker 5>you want to if we're talking about you right for

0:38:04.320 --> 0:38:07.440
<v Speaker 5>right now, if you want to connect with somebody and

0:38:07.480 --> 0:38:09.080
<v Speaker 5>that's hot for you, that's not fetishizing.

0:38:09.280 --> 0:38:12.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. No, I just want to connect with these people totally,

0:38:12.320 --> 0:38:12.919
<v Speaker 1>that's yeah.

0:38:13.040 --> 0:38:13.760
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, easy.

0:38:13.960 --> 0:38:16.160
<v Speaker 1>They turned me on in ways I can't describe.

0:38:16.360 --> 0:38:19.680
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So we've been talking a lot about these spaces,

0:38:19.760 --> 0:38:21.640
<v Speaker 2>and I know that you are one of the folks

0:38:21.680 --> 0:38:25.640
<v Speaker 2>involved with organizing Transferno, which is sort of a companion

0:38:25.680 --> 0:38:28.919
<v Speaker 2>party to Inferno, which is a very trans inclusive event.

0:38:28.920 --> 0:38:31.840
<v Speaker 2>But I'm curious what drew you to become one of

0:38:31.880 --> 0:38:36.160
<v Speaker 2>the organizers at Transferno and why why that event, what

0:38:36.160 --> 0:38:36.839
<v Speaker 2>it means to you.

0:38:36.960 --> 0:38:40.239
<v Speaker 5>Chris Gray started it with Adam Barron, So I just

0:38:40.280 --> 0:38:42.800
<v Speaker 5>want to be very specific about giving Chris Gray his props.

0:38:43.200 --> 0:38:46.600
<v Speaker 5>I would go to every single like Inferno event or

0:38:46.680 --> 0:38:51.799
<v Speaker 5>lots of different Inferno events, and Adam is just so

0:38:51.800 --> 0:38:56.960
<v Speaker 5>so kind and welcoming, and he invited me to participate

0:38:57.400 --> 0:39:00.680
<v Speaker 5>in Transferno back when it was called play House, and

0:39:00.719 --> 0:39:04.960
<v Speaker 5>this was in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen. I think yeah

0:39:05.000 --> 0:39:07.680
<v Speaker 5>and yeah. It was a really it was a really

0:39:07.719 --> 0:39:11.239
<v Speaker 5>hot party. And at the time the difference between Transferno

0:39:11.360 --> 0:39:14.239
<v Speaker 5>and Inferno was all the trans guys were getting their

0:39:14.239 --> 0:39:18.040
<v Speaker 5>dick sucked, whereas at Inferno nobody wanted to be seen

0:39:18.080 --> 0:39:20.719
<v Speaker 5>doing that. But things are very different now.

0:39:20.800 --> 0:39:22.520
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah they are. Yeah, who's like, why?

0:39:22.840 --> 0:39:26.719
<v Speaker 5>No? No, No, very different now. Inferno is is such

0:39:26.719 --> 0:39:31.000
<v Speaker 5>a wonderful space with I think it's pretty singular in

0:39:31.040 --> 0:39:33.960
<v Speaker 5>that there are lots of like the The idea is

0:39:34.040 --> 0:39:38.280
<v Speaker 5>no fucking shade, right, which really promotes a lot of community.

0:39:38.280 --> 0:39:41.160
<v Speaker 5>In my opinion, The idea for Transferno as it is

0:39:41.200 --> 0:39:45.680
<v Speaker 5>now is that if we center one group of people,

0:39:45.719 --> 0:39:48.400
<v Speaker 5>it doesn't mean that we exclude others. It means that

0:39:48.400 --> 0:39:50.520
<v Speaker 5>we can uplift these people and give them lots of

0:39:50.560 --> 0:39:53.680
<v Speaker 5>attention and then everybody can come join and celebrate and

0:39:53.719 --> 0:39:54.799
<v Speaker 5>do whatever it is that they do.

0:39:55.160 --> 0:39:57.560
<v Speaker 1>What has been your hottest experience? While I transfer no.

0:39:58.120 --> 0:40:01.719
<v Speaker 5>Hottest, I don't know about hottest. I always have great,

0:40:02.160 --> 0:40:08.440
<v Speaker 5>amazing times. There was one of my favorites was there

0:40:08.480 --> 0:40:11.520
<v Speaker 5>was this big bear in the sling and I love

0:40:11.520 --> 0:40:13.600
<v Speaker 5>a bear, and I was just like, all right, well

0:40:13.760 --> 0:40:16.080
<v Speaker 5>I'll go up to him. And he was into it,

0:40:16.760 --> 0:40:19.360
<v Speaker 5>and so, you know, his legs were up, he was

0:40:19.400 --> 0:40:21.200
<v Speaker 5>in the sling. So I started playing with his ass

0:40:21.880 --> 0:40:26.240
<v Speaker 5>and you know, I just felt his asshole just soften

0:40:26.280 --> 0:40:29.000
<v Speaker 5>around my fingers. And the more I gave him, the

0:40:29.000 --> 0:40:30.880
<v Speaker 5>more he could take. And I was like, I'm not

0:40:30.920 --> 0:40:32.920
<v Speaker 5>going to push you if you don't want it, but

0:40:32.960 --> 0:40:34.960
<v Speaker 5>I bet you can. I bet you can take my fist.

0:40:35.680 --> 0:40:41.480
<v Speaker 5>And and so he just he produced a backpack that

0:40:41.560 --> 0:40:46.879
<v Speaker 5>had jaylube, so he was ready. You bet right, he

0:40:46.960 --> 0:40:49.200
<v Speaker 5>was super ready. Like I I got all the way

0:40:49.239 --> 0:40:51.520
<v Speaker 5>in there. It was amazing. It was really super hot,

0:40:51.600 --> 0:40:56.280
<v Speaker 5>and it was it was the location of the sling

0:40:56.360 --> 0:40:59.200
<v Speaker 5>was somewhere where lots of people were watching. I'm not

0:40:59.320 --> 0:41:00.680
<v Speaker 5>someone I know the one.

0:41:00.800 --> 0:41:05.040
<v Speaker 1>It's one.

0:41:07.320 --> 0:41:07.600
<v Speaker 5>Thing.

0:41:08.040 --> 0:41:12.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I love that thing has truly accommodated all of Brooklyn.

0:41:12.560 --> 0:41:13.240
<v Speaker 1>That's amazing.

0:41:13.560 --> 0:41:16.359
<v Speaker 2>Sentos, thank you so much for joining us. We also

0:41:16.360 --> 0:41:19.040
<v Speaker 2>got to thank Jules Rosscom for joining us remotely. What

0:41:19.080 --> 0:41:20.200
<v Speaker 2>a wonderful interview.

0:41:20.680 --> 0:41:22.040
<v Speaker 1>Where can folks find you online.

0:41:22.200 --> 0:41:24.400
<v Speaker 5>I have a podcast called King Punk's k I n

0:41:24.480 --> 0:41:27.359
<v Speaker 5>K p U n X. Folks can find Transferreno through

0:41:27.560 --> 0:41:31.440
<v Speaker 5>the Inferno Party, which has a substack n y C

0:41:31.960 --> 0:41:34.000
<v Speaker 5>Inferno dot substack dot com.

0:41:34.000 --> 0:41:35.359
<v Speaker 1>Perfect Cool, Thank You.

0:41:35.520 --> 0:41:39.280
<v Speaker 2>Sniffy's Cruising Confessions is a production from Outspoken podcast Network

0:41:39.320 --> 0:41:42.920
<v Speaker 2>from iHeart Podcasts. It's directed by Adam Barron, produced by

0:41:42.920 --> 0:41:46.720
<v Speaker 2>Stevie Williams and Cameron Femino, and executive producers by Eli Martins.

0:41:47.080 --> 0:41:50.520
<v Speaker 2>Cruising Confessions is presented by Snippy's, the ultimate map based

0:41:50.520 --> 0:41:52.600
<v Speaker 2>cruising platform for gay by and.

0:41:52.680 --> 0:41:55.640
<v Speaker 1>Curious people ready to cruz. Check out the map at

0:41:55.640 --> 0:41:57.120
<v Speaker 1>Sniffy's dot com.

0:41:56.760 --> 0:41:59.520
<v Speaker 2>And follow Snippy's on socials at Sniffy's appo.

0:42:00.120 --> 0:42:02.080
<v Speaker 5>What put Your put your poots to?

0:42:02.239 --> 0:42:08.120
<v Speaker 3>Y mm hmm,