Speaker 1: Hey, viewers.
Speaker 2: Sniffy's Cruising Confessions is an explicit podcast about queer sex,
Speaker 2: filtered dirty words and unfiltered descriptions of sexual activities. If
Speaker 2: hearing about orgies, anonymous sex, kink, fetish, and more offends
Speaker 2: your sensibilities, you might want to skip this. Viewer discretion
Speaker 2: is advised. It's definitely not for kids.
Speaker 3: So, Gabe, I have to ask, have you ever hooked
Speaker 3: up with a gay trans dude? I am currently hooking
Speaker 3: up with a bisexual one.
Speaker 1: Does that count? Yes, they're on the spectrum. I love that. Yes.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 2: Me and my boyfriend have been dating for about seven years,
Speaker 2: and I don't want to say a little over a year ago,
Speaker 2: we met someone that we were very attracted to and
Speaker 2: have sort of like we're not like Threpple status, but
Speaker 2: you know, we're like kind of dating him knocking on
Speaker 2: that door. We met in a very social, somewhat sexual setting,
Speaker 2: and so I think it was very easy to like
Speaker 2: make the introductions and be flirty and then we just
Speaker 2: kind of started to.
Speaker 1: Hang out outside of hooking ups. It's been a lot
Speaker 1: of fun. Yeah, And I think I've also learned a
Speaker 1: lot about.
Speaker 2: The spectrum of the trans masculine experience through him. Not
Speaker 2: that I ever make him educate me or that he's
Speaker 2: had to, but it's like I think, when someone that
Speaker 2: you care about is part of a community, and someone
Speaker 2: that you're intimate with is part of a community, you're
Speaker 2: going to learn about that community, and you should learn
Speaker 2: about that community if you care about them.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I have a lot of transmit in my community, and
Speaker 3: I have definitely made out with quite a few and
Speaker 3: like have birched that subject. But I find myself really
Speaker 3: investigating whether this is a fetish or a desire and
Speaker 3: really having to like and what has like prohibited me
Speaker 3: from going that next step is like I have to
Speaker 3: be very clear about where this is going and why
Speaker 3: I'm doing it, what my intention is behind it, because
Speaker 3: I don't ever want to get into a situation where
Speaker 3: I'm fetishizing someone. Really, I have had it happen to
Speaker 3: me for many years and it doesn't feel great, you know.
Speaker 3: And so I'm knocking on that door, what.
Speaker 1: Are you jiggling the handle? That's I am a little bit.
Speaker 3: But then I also like get in my head and
Speaker 3: there's like a fear around like.
Speaker 1: How how do I do this?
Speaker 3: How do I do this, you know, and you know,
Speaker 3: I've got twenty five years experience, and so I don't want.
Speaker 1: To look like a fool. No, I feel that.
Speaker 2: But I feel like there are so many sexual scenarios
Speaker 2: where I'm like, oh, this is new for me, right,
Speaker 2: whether it's new partners, new experiences, new kinks, Like we
Speaker 2: should constantly feel like we are learning in our sexual lives.
Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, but like sometimes I just want to, like,
Speaker 3: you know, feel like I'm good at something and like
Speaker 3: new tricks.
Speaker 2: Well, to do that in these situations, you gotta practice.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, I know, I just gotta like rip the
Speaker 3: bandaid off, so to speak, and just like do it.
Speaker 3: And I do have some people that I feel really
Speaker 3: safe with and we've had lots of conversations around this,
Speaker 3: and I feel like I could do that.
Speaker 1: But there, yeah, there's a little bit of fear there.
Speaker 1: I got to walk through fear. That's it. Well, we're
Speaker 1: walking through today.
Speaker 2: Cruising in person or on the apps can be a
Speaker 2: different experience for trans guys who hook up with other guys,
Speaker 2: as today's guests have shared through their writing and work.
Speaker 2: This episode, we're talking to filmmaker Jules Roscom about his
Speaker 2: amazing new documentary film Desire Lines, which explores gay transsexuality
Speaker 2: and history. Then we talked to kink educator Santos jay
Speaker 2: I say about navigating the world of cruising, dating, and
Speaker 2: sex as a trans gay man.
Speaker 3: We'll get tips and tricks for both trans guys and
Speaker 3: cisguys to improve your pickups and hookups online and in person.
Speaker 2: Get ready today We're going cruising with trans guys. Welcome
Speaker 2: to Stiffy's Cruising Confessions.
Speaker 1: I am Gabe Gonzalez.
Speaker 3: I'm Chris Patterson Rosso. Each week weeks for the Sublime
Speaker 3: World of Queer sex, cruising and Relationships.
Speaker 2: Will be talking to queer folks of all kinds. Ask
Speaker 2: them questions, swap sex stories, share intimate revelations.
Speaker 1: A lot of us are discovering ourselves in cruising spaces.
Speaker 1: This happened to me at this toilet stall, in the
Speaker 1: library or the airport. I feel like everybody's gonna fuck
Speaker 1: a little harder here.
Speaker 3: Damn.
Speaker 5: So I've been like the neighborhood flat and I took
Speaker 5: pride in that I.
Speaker 4: Was so afraid but yet so intrigued.
Speaker 5: And the more I gave to him, the more he
Speaker 5: could take.
Speaker 3: If you're having sex on Sniffy's you already have a
Speaker 3: moral deficit.
Speaker 1: Over the weekend game.
Speaker 3: And I watched this really amazing documentary called Desire Lines.
Speaker 3: It's been screening at festivals all over the country.
Speaker 2: Through a hybrid documentary and scripted approach, the film explores
Speaker 2: how trans gay men understand and engage in their sexuality.
Speaker 2: With a diverse cast of transman we're all very open
Speaker 2: and honest about their experiences, both good and bad.
Speaker 1: Let's take a look at the trailer.
Speaker 4: Came to see you, doctor Paully, because I understood that
Speaker 4: you are the reigning expert on the female to male
Speaker 4: transsexual and I also understood that you had not met
Speaker 4: or or heard of a female to male transsexual who
Speaker 4: identified as a gay man. And that's exactly what I am,
Speaker 4: and I want my story preserver.
Speaker 6: You wanted to know what it's like in an actual bathhouse.
Speaker 5: I've talked about it.
Speaker 7: And so when I think about the early narratives of transnis,
Speaker 7: it was like you were female to male or your
Speaker 7: male to female and that skit and you're head of
Speaker 7: a sexual. Then you started to see the like parentheses
Speaker 7: of trans men and trans masculine folk who were engaging
Speaker 7: with men, and it was like this big secret, and
Speaker 7: I was like, why is it such a secret. We
Speaker 7: were all doing it.
Speaker 6: And so yeah, So I don't know, it's weird to
Speaker 6: be like chicken out of the egg, Like, you know,
Speaker 6: did the tea make me gay?
Speaker 5: Was I always deftined to be interested in men?
Speaker 3: Desire Lines was directed by Acclaim filmmaker Jules Roscomb, and
Speaker 3: we were super excited to have him join us on
Speaker 3: today's episode of Cruising Case Confessions.
Speaker 1: Welcome Jules.
Speaker 2: We could not stop talking about this film. We're so
Speaker 2: excited to talk to you about it. Where did this
Speaker 2: film process begin for you? What was the genesis of
Speaker 2: this idea?
Speaker 6: I was actually thinking about making the film for almost
Speaker 6: twenty years before I started making it, which is definitely
Speaker 6: the longest I've spent thinking about a film before starting it.
Speaker 6: And it really just came from my own experiences in
Speaker 6: community with trans men and noticing how many of us
Speaker 6: seem to develop attraction after coming out as trans, and
Speaker 6: just being so fascinated by why that is, because I think,
Speaker 6: in part, because you know, we were I would say
Speaker 6: lesbian and gay activists of the nineties did so much
Speaker 6: work to teach mostly sis straight people that gender and
Speaker 6: sexuality were not the same thing, and yet they animate
Speaker 6: each other. Right, because your sexuality is related to gender,
Speaker 6: you are attracted to certain genders. Gender plays a part
Speaker 6: in it, so they're not totally different. So I was like,
Speaker 6: why is this happening for trans men? But it doesn't
Speaker 6: seem to happen in the same way for trans women,
Speaker 6: So it's something specific to trans masculinity. What is this about?
Speaker 6: Why is this also a process that seems not just
Speaker 6: like a joyous revelation, Oh my god, I'm attracted to men,
Speaker 6: but somewhat fraught for a lot of transmen. And I
Speaker 6: kind of was just waiting for someone else to make
Speaker 6: the film, and then in twenty nineteen, I finally was like, Okay,
Speaker 6: I guess it's going to be me. And I don't
Speaker 6: make films to prove a point or with a predetermined thesis.
Speaker 6: It's really emerges out of dialogue with other people and
Speaker 6: from my community.
Speaker 2: The doc begins with a quote from Lou Sullivan, an
Speaker 2: author and activist and for those who don't know, one
Speaker 2: of the first very visible transmen to come out as gay.
Speaker 2: And the quote that opens a film is our best
Speaker 2: weapon in coping with our situation is our imagination? Do
Speaker 2: you think imagination plays in our conceptions around gender and sexuality.
Speaker 6: It's maybe the most central role our imagination, and not
Speaker 6: just around gender and sexuality, but for everyone who is
Speaker 6: marginalized in this culture, who is looking for a better
Speaker 6: or different version of the one we're currently attempting to survive.
Speaker 6: Imagination is critical, and if you don't have a robust imagination,
Speaker 6: you're not going to have a lot of fun with
Speaker 6: either your gender or your sexuality. I think that's why
Speaker 6: to me and so many other people who know about him,
Speaker 6: Lou Sullivan's so. I mean, he's a revolutionary. Every time
Speaker 6: I think about certain parts of his life and what
Speaker 6: he did and the things he said, and how bold
Speaker 6: he was, I get just like I get kind of
Speaker 6: overwhelmed to think about what it was like to be
Speaker 6: an out, gay trans man in the nineteen seventies. It's
Speaker 6: hard enough now, and I just think about what Lou
Speaker 6: went through and how he he didn't stop no matter
Speaker 6: how many people told him he couldn't exist, or he
Speaker 6: couldn't do what he wanted to do or be who
Speaker 6: he wanted to be. He didn't take no for an answer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really love those archival interviews within the frame
Speaker 2: narrative were so moving and like really helped frame the interviews. Earlier,
Speaker 2: you were talking about how for some of the folks
Speaker 2: you interviewed, realizing their attraction to men was a bit fraught.
Speaker 2: I'm curious how many people did you interview who felt
Speaker 2: at least a little embarrassed about admitting to themselves or
Speaker 2: their friends that they wanted to have sex with men.
Speaker 6: I mean, honestly, almost all of them were, you know,
Speaker 6: experienced some period of either embarrassment, shame, disappointment. There's so
Speaker 6: many other interviews that didn't end up in the film,
Speaker 6: but one of them in particular was like a non binary,
Speaker 6: trans masculine person who is literally afraid to take testosterone
Speaker 6: because they're afraid it will quote unquote make them get
Speaker 6: and they desperately do not want to be attracted to men.
Speaker 6: They're very pleased with their attraction to women, and they
Speaker 6: really are afraid of that attraction. It's not even the attraction,
Speaker 6: but it's the sort of social political aspects of it.
Speaker 6: Hashtag not all gay men, but there's a lot of
Speaker 6: misogyny still deep in the game mel community and it's
Speaker 6: you know, very dick focused, and it's still really working
Speaker 6: on accepting trans men. So you know, I understand people's
Speaker 6: fears and anxiety as I had my own for sure.
Speaker 6: Deep ambivalence is about attractions. In some ways, it's not
Speaker 6: that different than assist person coming out as gay. Right,
Speaker 6: whether coming out as lesbian or as a gay man,
Speaker 6: or as queer or whatever, we all have to fight
Speaker 6: our individual demons around that, and so I just think
Speaker 6: this is no different, though maybe a little bit more
Speaker 6: confusing in some ways.
Speaker 3: I want to talk a little bit about why you
Speaker 3: chose the way you made the film, and what I
Speaker 3: mean by that is, like, there's this narrative that's happening,
Speaker 3: but then you're also splicing it with this documentary, and
Speaker 3: like that was so impactful for me because they both
Speaker 3: helped move the story along, and the way that you
Speaker 3: wove them together so seamlessly was really beautiful.
Speaker 1: Can you talk to me about that process.
Speaker 6: I mean, in some ways you answered the question right.
Speaker 6: It's that both modes of storytelling tell a story in
Speaker 6: a different way, and they impact us differently. One might
Speaker 6: be more intellectual, one might be more emotional, one might
Speaker 6: be more sensual. Trying to sort of tell this complex story,
Speaker 6: especially if we go back to your question earlier about
Speaker 6: imagination that like these fantasy sequences, these sort of fever
Speaker 6: dreams in the bath house, moving between the bath house
Speaker 6: and the archive, but it wouldn't have been as compelling
Speaker 6: to be done as a kind of straightforward doc. Trans
Speaker 6: and queer content deserve trans and queer form. Otherwise you're
Speaker 6: sticking around peg in a square hole or whatever that's saying.
Speaker 8: Otherwise it just becomes becomes a straight story or a
Speaker 8: straight narrative with trans and queer characters, and so we
Speaker 8: have to tell our stories differently.
Speaker 2: I was out last night with my partner who is
Speaker 2: trans masculine, and his friend who is no binary trans masculine,
Speaker 2: and we were at like a mixed queer and straight
Speaker 2: sports bar, and one of them was like, I actually
Speaker 2: prefer venues like this to the cat katakat gay bars.
Speaker 2: They're like, I can't deal with the yes, Mama queen
Speaker 2: bars because sometimes I do feel a bit alienated there.
Speaker 2: So I'm curious about how you've maybe seen queer spaces,
Speaker 2: specifically gay bars, sort of change and what you'd maybe
Speaker 2: like to see change or for folks to keep in
Speaker 2: mind in these spaces to be more trans inclusive, you know.
Speaker 6: Thinking about when I was first sort of coming out
Speaker 6: as trans in the early two thousands in New York
Speaker 6: City and going to gay bars and having ninety nine
Speaker 6: percent of the time really awful experiences. I would be
Speaker 6: about to go home with someone or you know, sort
Speaker 6: of hooking up with someone in a corner or just
Speaker 6: chatting with someone or whatever, and then I have to
Speaker 6: disclose that I'm trans, and all of a sudden, I'm she.
Speaker 6: All of a sudden, I'm disgusting. All of a sudden,
Speaker 6: like the whole mood changes. That's not my experience anymore.
Speaker 6: I would notice a real shift, or starting around ten
Speaker 6: years ago, of like I would go to Chicago or
Speaker 6: San Francisco or somewhere else, like can I open up
Speaker 6: a hookup app? And all of a sudden, it was
Speaker 6: like people were interested, not it was more interest than
Speaker 6: rather than what the fuck are you? Or why are
Speaker 6: you on here? Or just like nasty comments or even
Speaker 6: when it's not nasty comments, just ignorant comments. I think
Speaker 6: that that's the biggest shift. Does one that some people
Speaker 6: at least know in the gay male community, No transmen
Speaker 6: exist now, I think most it's not confusing anymore. The
Speaker 6: issue I've had in some of those kinds of spaces,
Speaker 6: and I think this still persists, is there's really different
Speaker 6: culture in gay mal culture are than there is and
Speaker 6: say like queer women's culture about like bodies and consent
Speaker 6: and touch. So I would walk into a gay bar
Speaker 6: and someone would like go to grab my dick, and
Speaker 6: then it's like literally without saying hi, you know, like
Speaker 6: there's no it's like the boundaries are not quite there,
Speaker 6: and the like consent forward culture isn't quite there. And
Speaker 6: there's some times where that really works and it's hot,
Speaker 6: and other times where it feels really dangerous and feels
Speaker 6: like I'm not going to go into this space because
Speaker 6: I don't want to get groped tonight, or I don't
Speaker 6: want to have to cover conversation after you try to
Speaker 6: put your hand down my pants or whatever. It is.
Speaker 6: Almost every single time I talk to assist gay man
Speaker 6: and there's like that in a sexual context, there's the
Speaker 6: assumption that I'm a bottom because I'm a transman, and
Speaker 6: for me, that doesn't happen to be true. And that's
Speaker 6: my biggest block in relationships sexual relationships with gay man?
Speaker 6: Is that assuming that all transmn are bottoms and then
Speaker 6: going again back to this imagination thing when I'm like, no,
Speaker 6: I'm not a bottom, then it's like, well I don't
Speaker 6: understand how that could possibly work. And I'm like, well,
Speaker 6: if you can't imagine, like if that's how like you know,
Speaker 6: sad your imagination is, we're not going to have fun
Speaker 6: sex anyway, regardless of who's on top or was on
Speaker 6: the bottom, Like, so we're do it.
Speaker 2: Was like, we have the technology, Like there's nothing more
Speaker 2: exciting than when a partner comes over and brings out
Speaker 2: a bag of dicks right.
Speaker 1: From you.
Speaker 2: I'm like, that's the kind of accommodation I could never
Speaker 2: get who with a cis man?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 3: Yeah, there are some days I'm willing to take more
Speaker 3: than I and than others, and like having that option
Speaker 3: is always wonderful.
Speaker 6: Yes, we're like live transformers.
Speaker 3: I've seen people put that in their bios now, putting
Speaker 3: transformer in their bio. What do you think started the
Speaker 3: shift that you mentioned about ten years ago?
Speaker 6: A couple of things, one more transmen being out and
Speaker 6: just so there being more numbers. I do think also
Speaker 6: as even though these hookup apps can also be sites
Speaker 6: of a lot of violence and you know, misogyny, transphobia, racism,
Speaker 6: all the things we all know. They became the place
Speaker 6: where the only place I was sort of willing to
Speaker 6: engage with CIS men because I could just have it out.
Speaker 1: I'm out.
Speaker 6: I don't have to disclose halfway through the conversation or
Speaker 6: halfway through a makeout or whatever it is. It was
Speaker 6: just there and I'd rather just if you're going to
Speaker 6: talk to me, you know. And then there's been a huge,
Speaker 6: I think media explosion around trans folks in general, certainly
Speaker 6: more about trans women or transfemininity than trans masculinity, but
Speaker 6: trans masculinity in the last like I would say, three years,
Speaker 6: has suddenly gotten way more attention and visibility, you know,
Speaker 6: which also cuts both ways. But yeah, so I think
Speaker 6: it's a confluence of things. And I think probably my
Speaker 6: guess is that CIS men are also starting to you know,
Speaker 6: are over the last decade having more relationships sexual, romantic, whatever,
Speaker 6: with trans men telling their friends that we exist, that
Speaker 6: we're fun, that we're you know, whatever it might be.
Speaker 6: So I think, you know, it's like a little bit
Speaker 6: of word of mouth to spreading in the community and
Speaker 6: just getting more kind of knowledge and experience.
Speaker 2: I will say we got we got quite quite hot
Speaker 2: and bothered after watching the documentary. I know, we really
Speaker 2: fell in love with this sort of bath house through line,
Speaker 2: didn't we that?
Speaker 1: I loved it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love a bath house, and so anytime there's
Speaker 3: one portrayed for me, I'm like, let's do that. And
Speaker 3: like New York doesn't really have any bathhouses anymore, so
Speaker 3: I'm like longing for that bathhouse experience.
Speaker 6: That was not part of my initial kind of conception
Speaker 6: of the film, but it emerged out of the interviews
Speaker 6: I did with the trans guys, and I was personally
Speaker 6: very surprised to hear about how many of them had
Speaker 6: had like really positive, transformative experiences in gay bath houses,
Speaker 6: and that it was really an experience where they came
Speaker 6: to understand their their bodies on a spectrum right, and
Speaker 6: that in some ways their bodies didn't feel that different
Speaker 6: than other than guy's bodies, and it was a place
Speaker 6: where they experienced a lot more acceptance than say in
Speaker 6: some like online spaces or other kind of bars or whatever.
Speaker 5: I mean.
Speaker 6: I think bathostos are just historically such a unique place
Speaker 6: which is you know, not to over romanticize them and
Speaker 6: to say they're without problem, because of course that's not true,
Speaker 6: but they can be. I think these really interesting places
Speaker 6: of cross racial, cross cross class, cross generational contact, and
Speaker 6: places where people sometimes I think, actually end up in
Speaker 6: sexual scenarios or with in sexual relationships with people that
Speaker 6: if looking scrolling through an app, they wouldn't have quote
Speaker 6: unquote chosen necessarily. But you're in a space and you're
Speaker 6: feeling the energy, which is while we all those online
Speaker 6: spaces for me are so hard because I'm like, you
Speaker 6: might be hot and you might be saying hot things,
Speaker 6: but if we get in the same space and the
Speaker 6: energy isn't there, yeah, like the sexual energy, like what
Speaker 6: are we doing?
Speaker 1: Like now you know it?
Speaker 6: Just yeah, exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean I love that moment where it's like
Speaker 2: there's sort of the awkward chit chat and you can
Speaker 2: feel the energy building and you're like, all right, when
Speaker 2: when is this going.
Speaker 1: To bubble over?
Speaker 2: When is the green like totally right in a way
Speaker 2: that you don't quite get that same excitement speaking with
Speaker 2: somebody and then you show up in their ass up
Speaker 2: and you're like, oh, well this is hot, but like
Speaker 2: I enjoy the flirtation in the build a bit. I
Speaker 2: want to be emotionally edged before we hook up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah, all us talk
Speaker 3: about bath houses. I have to know what was your
Speaker 3: last experience at a bath house?
Speaker 6: Like, I haven't been to very many, and I haven't
Speaker 6: been in a long time actually, So when I was
Speaker 6: making the film, at one point, I like set up
Speaker 6: a Google voicemail where people could leave their bathouse confessions.
Speaker 6: And I just remembered the most amazing story I had heard.
Speaker 6: So this transasculine person who had was a gestational parent
Speaker 6: and so had just had given birth I don't know,
Speaker 6: maybe a year prior, and was chest feeding their child,
Speaker 6: so had like milk coming, you know, was producing milk.
Speaker 6: Went to bath house, went in, was in this room
Speaker 6: like an orgy room, and was surrounded by maybe half
Speaker 6: a dozen Cisca men who were undressing them and were
Speaker 6: in various modes of you know, we're naked, we're jerking off,
Speaker 6: we're having a good time. And they started like lactating
Speaker 6: and we're just sort of squirting their milk everywhere, and
Speaker 6: everyone was really into it, and it was amazing, and
Speaker 6: I had so doubly wanted to film this scene for
Speaker 6: the film, but I couldn't. We couldn't get it, get it,
Speaker 6: get there. But I had just when they left this message,
Speaker 6: like this is the best bathhouse story I have ever heard.
Speaker 6: And I just love the image of like a transmasculine
Speaker 6: person who's lactating and there's like ciscay men holding their dicks,
Speaker 6: jerking off, like living for this moment, Like it's just amazing.
Speaker 2: You really have one idea of what a bathhouse is
Speaker 2: going to be, and it's a different spot every night,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Like it's like you said,
Speaker 2: it's it's places where different journeys and communities intersect in
Speaker 2: really fun and surprising ways.
Speaker 1: And it's like, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: If somebody would put like I'm lactating, come drink off
Speaker 2: to me lactating, I'm sure a lot of people would
Speaker 2: have been like what O.
Speaker 1: But then doing a person seeing a person? Right, they
Speaker 1: were like, wait, I love this. That is incredible. That's
Speaker 1: so cool.
Speaker 6: You're like, they're like, I like watching bodily fluids come
Speaker 6: out of some one's body part, and who would have thought,
Speaker 6: but I'm into this body part ejaculating also so here
Speaker 6: we go, Here we go.
Speaker 2: Everybody in the room is leaking somehow, right, Yeah, I
Speaker 2: truly feel like we could sit here and talk to
Speaker 2: you for hours. This is fascinating. Where can people see
Speaker 2: the film this summer and where can they find you
Speaker 2: on social media?
Speaker 6: Jules Roskam Films and then desire linesfilm dot com is
Speaker 6: our website. I hope to see you guys at are
Speaker 6: screening sometime soon.
Speaker 3: All right, when we come back, we'll be getting tips
Speaker 3: and tricks from both CIS and trans gay men to
Speaker 3: have better and hotter interactions and sex.
Speaker 2: Our next guest is a leather Daddy, a musician and
Speaker 2: the host of the kink Punks podcast, where he and
Speaker 2: his co host August provide holistic, ethical, kink aware, pleasure
Speaker 2: focused sex ad for trans masculine and adjacent people.
Speaker 3: He is one of the organizers of transferno, Y's first
Speaker 3: trans mask centered sex part.
Speaker 1: Please welcome Santos.
Speaker 2: Jay Santos, I wanted to kick us off by talking
Speaker 2: a little bit about an article you wrote for the
Speaker 2: publication Them in February this year.
Speaker 1: It was great.
Speaker 2: This is an article about the what you call the
Speaker 2: complicated reality of being trans mask on apps. What are
Speaker 2: your experiences in this realm and what prompted you to
Speaker 2: write this piece.
Speaker 5: My experiences on the apps have a lot to do
Speaker 5: with my experience, right, so, like as in, I've been
Speaker 5: in this life for almost twenty years, and I kind
Speaker 5: of at this point kind of know how to handle
Speaker 5: myself and I don't settle. So that's pretty much how
Speaker 5: I navigate these things. And that has a lot to
Speaker 5: do with the kind of education that I want to
Speaker 5: put out there, because if I can help folks trust
Speaker 5: their gut and trust themselves, you know, we can all
Speaker 5: mitigate like a little bit of harm and also like
Speaker 5: really promote a lot more pleasure for other people. Sometimes
Speaker 5: folks will be crude and people will be like, oh,
Speaker 5: so you're a woman, I want to fuck your pussy
Speaker 5: or whatever, and it's just like it feels really irrelevant
Speaker 5: to me. First off, No, a lot of like transmand
Speaker 5: and transpasculine people who aren't super savvy don't realize that
Speaker 5: if somebody's really pushy on the apps, they're going to
Speaker 5: be ten times pushy or in.
Speaker 1: Bed, which is terrifying.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, totally, But you know, thankfully there there are
Speaker 5: you know, good like good things do happen. I've met
Speaker 5: some wonderful subs, some wonderful play partners for some people
Speaker 5: that's like played out for several years. It's just like
Speaker 5: lots of really nice chemistry, you know, and some of
Speaker 5: the chemistry is like led to deeper relationships and some
Speaker 5: of the chemistry has just led to reliable hookups every
Speaker 5: once in a while.
Speaker 1: We talked about not settling.
Speaker 3: What was the conversation you have with yourself where you
Speaker 3: were just like, I'm not going to settle, and this
Speaker 3: is what settling looks like.
Speaker 5: Before I learned how to cruise, I had different partners.
Speaker 5: I kind of learned through them that you know, the
Speaker 5: more you ask for what you want, the more you
Speaker 5: get what you want. And it wasn't until I was
Speaker 5: about thirty five I'm forty three now that I was
Speaker 5: able to consistently ask for what I want. And still
Speaker 5: it's a little bit of a struggle, you know, and
Speaker 5: taking up space just you know, we're not encouraged to
Speaker 5: take up space in general as human beings, but really
Speaker 5: like giving yourself permission to take up space and giving
Speaker 5: yourself permission to ask for what you want. I mean,
Speaker 5: that's kind of in my mind, one of the main
Speaker 5: things is like entitlement in cruising. You know, there's a
Speaker 5: lot of entitlement to touch in shared spaces, and there's
Speaker 5: a lot of entitlement to ask. But then those of
Speaker 5: us who care a little more, I think, don't always
Speaker 5: feel that entitlement. So I think that like giving yourself
Speaker 5: that equal entitlement helps you know not to settle. Also,
Speaker 5: I feel like I have settled when I feel like
Speaker 5: I can't do better, or like I'm impatient or whatever.
Speaker 5: And you know, I've just learned a certain amount of
Speaker 5: patients because a lot of times when I settle, I
Speaker 5: don't get what I want.
Speaker 3: Anyway, No, same, And I think this idea of like
Speaker 3: accepting that you can be entitled is revolutionary for me.
Speaker 5: Yeah, because like, as a.
Speaker 3: Black queer person, even in the cruising space, I've never
Speaker 3: felt like.
Speaker 1: I could be entitled to anything.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so giving myself permission to have that entitlement,
Speaker 3: I'm running with that.
Speaker 5: Yeah. I mean, if we could all be as entitled
Speaker 5: as a mediocre white man, that.
Speaker 2: Wi ha oh, So send those I think one of
Speaker 2: the most powerful parts of this article is where you
Speaker 2: discuss your body and kind of have this moment of
Speaker 2: affirmation explaining that your body doesn't need to meet anyone
Speaker 2: else's standards, right part of this deciding not to settle.
Speaker 2: Did engaging with people on apps make it harder to
Speaker 2: realize that you don't need to meet anyone else's standards,
Speaker 2: or did it in some roundabout way help you make
Speaker 2: this realization.
Speaker 5: One of the things about being on the app apps
Speaker 5: is the the absolute crudeness, right, which is honestly part
Speaker 5: of why we're there for it.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 5: Also, I think rejection is just data, you know, right,
Speaker 5: And it's not even about you, like it's it's it's
Speaker 5: how other people perceive you from their background, et cetera.
Speaker 5: Getting rejected a lot and trying to acquiesce to other
Speaker 5: people's needs or et cetera. Like just it doesn't it
Speaker 5: doesn't get you far. And if you hit that wall
Speaker 5: enough times, you know you kind of you're just like, wait,
Speaker 5: what fuck it? Like what do I want? I feel
Speaker 5: like that's an important point to reach.
Speaker 2: I'm curious how do things differ for you when you
Speaker 2: get to the in person cruising scenario versus the apps.
Speaker 5: I mean, I started out in person cruising at Glory
Speaker 5: Holes because of the anonymity. It's really basic. But the
Speaker 5: first time I heard suck that dick boy, I was
Speaker 5: just like, this is this is perfect, this is music
Speaker 5: to my ears. That affirmation and that curiosity led me
Speaker 5: to start going to sex parties eventually. So there's kind
Speaker 5: of this Spidey sense where you're like, that guy is
Speaker 5: looking at me, and if I look back at him,
Speaker 5: he's going to look back at me again, which means
Speaker 5: I should probably talk to him. And if you just
Speaker 5: talk to somebody like that, you know, you end up
Speaker 5: in lots of fun trouble if you want to be.
Speaker 5: Getting a handle on that, and just understanding that sex
Speaker 5: is available, you know, makes things like sex parties and
Speaker 5: such a lot easier. Before I really started transition, it
Speaker 5: was hard for me to relate to other people because
Speaker 5: I didn't really understand the vector from which my personality
Speaker 5: was going to. So it's kind of like, if I'm
Speaker 5: this spectral entity who like doesn't really understand where I
Speaker 5: fit within gender, how can I interact with other people.
Speaker 1: Authentically?
Speaker 5: Yes, exactly exactly. Getting myself right with myself kind of
Speaker 5: helped me figure out how to cruise.
Speaker 2: What advice do you have for folks who do want
Speaker 2: to start cruising based on what cruising spaces look like today, I.
Speaker 5: Would say one of my first things is some folks
Speaker 5: are coming from Saffik backgrounds, and some folks are just
Speaker 5: like not necessarily coming from any particular queer background in general,
Speaker 5: and they're not used to being touched without being approached
Speaker 5: about it first, being aware that that is a frequent
Speaker 5: occurrence in gay male spaces, and to be to be
Speaker 5: ready for that. You can always just push somebody's hand away,
Speaker 5: And that goes back to the entitlement, right. That goes
Speaker 5: back to asking for what you want. Another thing is
Speaker 5: get your vaccines, take your meds. You know, risk means
Speaker 5: that it can happen to you, and you know there
Speaker 5: isn't any STI that is not treatable, and it's it's
Speaker 5: just a thing that happens and it's totally fine. I
Speaker 5: really think it's important to value yourself. A lot of
Speaker 5: people are afraid to go into gay spaces because they
Speaker 5: are afraid of not being affirmed and afraid of people gatekeeping.
Speaker 5: And if people are gatekeeping, they're not hot period period.
Speaker 5: If somebody is rejecting you, they're helping you dodge a bullet.
Speaker 5: Because it wouldn't have been hot with them anyway.
Speaker 3: Yes, what advice would you give to a ciscay man
Speaker 3: who's looking to look up a transascular men?
Speaker 5: Trans Men are men, right, and which seems obvious, but
Speaker 5: it's it's it bears repeating. And also not all transvasculine
Speaker 5: people are men, right, but those of us who do
Speaker 5: identify as men are men. Early in transition, I felt
Speaker 5: like I was, you know, a girl becoming a man,
Speaker 5: you know, And then later on I was like, wait
Speaker 5: a minute, I was I you know, corrected and corrected
Speaker 5: and corrected or coursed and course to coursed every single
Speaker 5: day growing up. I didn't actually get to expand into
Speaker 5: this boyhood that was right there, right in front of me.
Speaker 5: And then I understood, you know, after you know, a
Speaker 5: long time that I was boil along. So it feels
Speaker 5: very much for me like less of going from one
Speaker 5: gender to another and more like awakening from gas lighting
Speaker 5: and settling into the thing that I always was. Everybody's
Speaker 5: got a different experience of their gender. But if we
Speaker 5: think of it in that way or other ways that
Speaker 5: are presented to us, you know, we can really take
Speaker 5: the heart that yes, transmit are men. So that's the
Speaker 5: place that I always want to start with that. So
Speaker 5: another thing is be curious, ask people, ask people what
Speaker 5: they like, what they're into. You can ask people, how
Speaker 5: do you like to be touched? You can you know,
Speaker 5: if you want to be subby, you can say, put
Speaker 5: my hands where you want them, or put my dick
Speaker 5: where you want it or whatever. Just being open to
Speaker 5: lots of possibilities and speaking of possibilities, transmend and transpasculine
Speaker 5: people may have a variety of different procedures and hormones,
Speaker 5: et cetera that that our bodies may be, you know,
Speaker 5: that we may use on our bodies. So I there's
Speaker 5: there's this, uh, there's this idea that you know, trans
Speaker 5: men are these like merman, you know, like we've we've
Speaker 5: we've got we've got, uh, you know, our our top
Speaker 5: chop and then we've got like, you know, our our
Speaker 5: pussy's there, you know. And and also that's not a
Speaker 5: word that everybody loves. But yeah, so so yeah, I
Speaker 5: mean there's lots of different, lots of different possibilities. Lots
Speaker 5: of people get lower surgery, lots of people don't get
Speaker 5: top surgery. Some people have hormones, some people get hormones,
Speaker 5: some people don't. So there's lots of different possibilities in
Speaker 5: terms of that and just keeping an open mind, you know.
Speaker 5: And you know, lots of people have sex and lots
Speaker 5: of different ways, and some of it relates to gender,
Speaker 5: and some of it relates to just different preferences in general,
Speaker 5: and also abilities, like lots of people with disabilities have
Speaker 5: to have sex in different ways. Other things would be
Speaker 5: wash your damn hands, wash your damn dick. If I'm
Speaker 5: you know, at a play party or at a sex party,
Speaker 5: you know, I want to make sure that a dick
Speaker 5: hasn't been in an ass before it's going inside of me.
Speaker 5: That's very important. It's really important to be aware that
Speaker 5: like t is not birth control, to stopsterone is not
Speaker 5: birth control?
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, so what are.
Speaker 5: You doing for that? Are you having that conversation? Do
Speaker 5: you have a vasectomy if you're just gonna like go raw.
Speaker 5: So there's lots of different things to think about. And
Speaker 5: also some people do need to use condoms because they're
Speaker 5: you know, delicate ecosystems will react badly to new stimuli,
Speaker 5: you know, or like new new things going into them.
Speaker 5: But not everybody uses their front hole. And let's see
Speaker 5: in terms of in terms of oral anything that is
Speaker 5: presented to you as a dick, treat it like a dick.
Speaker 5: So that could be fingers, that could be a dildo,
Speaker 5: that could be like a phallus on the person's body.
Speaker 5: Treat it like a dick. Don't treat it like a clitterius,
Speaker 5: and you know you'll probably be fine. Check in with
Speaker 5: the person. Whenever I have sex with a guy who
Speaker 5: hasn't had sex with a trans guy before, like a
Speaker 5: sis guy who hasn't had sex with a trans guy before,
Speaker 5: I'm usually like, you fucked a guy, right, And they're like, yeah,
Speaker 5: Like you'll be fine. Just treat me like a guy. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 5: You've got it, you know. So you know, if you're
Speaker 5: going from back to front, I'm gonna stop you. But
Speaker 5: you know, there are little things like that, little little
Speaker 5: you know, things to be aware of, but overall, just
Speaker 5: like if you are having sex with a man, just
Speaker 5: treat him like a man and it'll be fine.
Speaker 3: So I have to ask, as a person who kind
Speaker 3: of struggles with this myself, how do you deal with
Speaker 3: chasers and fetishizing right?
Speaker 1: How do you navigate that?
Speaker 3: Because I find myself really interested in having connections with transmit.
Speaker 3: But I don't I worry if I'm fetishizing or if
Speaker 3: I'm chasing, right, and how do I what's that line?
Speaker 3: And how do you navigate that? Yeah, that's really.
Speaker 5: Cool, lots of answers. If I feel like I am
Speaker 5: the only thing standing between some guy and my genitals,
Speaker 5: that's what being chased feels like, you know, like it's
Speaker 5: not about me, it's about what he wants, what he expects. Right,
Speaker 5: So if that's not the vibe that you're coming from,
Speaker 5: you're probably not chasing.
Speaker 1: Okay, So like I just needed to hear it from you.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I I have every confidence that that you'll
Speaker 5: be fine.
Speaker 1: We can't put it to the test soon. Don't worry.
Speaker 1: There will be parties coming up. We got you.
Speaker 5: Frankly, for chasers, like actual chasers, I feel like there's
Speaker 5: there is a very select, narrow slot, no pun intending I.
Speaker 1: Was going to say where.
Speaker 5: Now, Yeah, so a very a very select, like very
Speaker 5: narrow place where that where that fits if you feel
Speaker 5: good taking out the adoration from that, which is complicated
Speaker 5: because it comes with a lot of ship that people
Speaker 5: don't want to hear, right, so basically like I don't
Speaker 5: want to hear about my body. I don't want to
Speaker 5: hear about what you want really because it's like fucked up.
Speaker 5: But the experience of just taking off your clothes and
Speaker 5: having somebody go, oh my god, that's amazing, you know,
Speaker 5: like just that kind of thing. They're not marveling in you,
Speaker 5: They're marvel in their fetish If you can pause wanting
Speaker 5: to be seen, you know, if it's not important to
Speaker 5: you to be seen by someone and just to take
Speaker 5: take everything at face value, then that works, you know,
Speaker 5: Like I've I've definitely had lots of lots and lots
Speaker 5: of sex that was like that, but also like if
Speaker 5: that's not something you can do, it's not gonna be fun. No.
Speaker 2: I appreciate you delineating that because I think, as you said,
Speaker 2: it's like there, and I mean, I think this can
Speaker 2: apply to so many sexual scenarios. There's sort of a
Speaker 2: fine line between adoration, affirmation, and fetishizing, and I think
Speaker 2: the way you phrased that difference is like such a
Speaker 2: clear delineation that I think folks can walk away with
Speaker 2: and be like, oh yeah, am I.
Speaker 1: Hoogab with a person?
Speaker 2: Or am I hoogay with a person because I'm fetishizing
Speaker 2: a body part, their colors, their skin, their gender identity,
Speaker 2: their genitals.
Speaker 1: Like that's yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Fetishizing is often you transplanting your your idea of
Speaker 5: what you want onto a person. So I mean, if
Speaker 5: you want to if we're talking about you right for
Speaker 5: right now, if you want to connect with somebody and
Speaker 5: that's hot for you, that's not fetishizing.
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I just want to connect with these people totally,
Speaker 1: that's yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, easy.
Speaker 1: They turned me on in ways I can't describe.
Speaker 2: Okay, So we've been talking a lot about these spaces,
Speaker 2: and I know that you are one of the folks
Speaker 2: involved with organizing Transferno, which is sort of a companion
Speaker 2: party to Inferno, which is a very trans inclusive event.
Speaker 2: But I'm curious what drew you to become one of
Speaker 2: the organizers at Transferno and why why that event, what
Speaker 2: it means to you.
Speaker 5: Chris Gray started it with Adam Barron, So I just
Speaker 5: want to be very specific about giving Chris Gray his props.
Speaker 5: I would go to every single like Inferno event or
Speaker 5: lots of different Inferno events, and Adam is just so
Speaker 5: so kind and welcoming, and he invited me to participate
Speaker 5: in Transferno back when it was called play House, and
Speaker 5: this was in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen. I think yeah
Speaker 5: and yeah. It was a really it was a really
Speaker 5: hot party. And at the time the difference between Transferno
Speaker 5: and Inferno was all the trans guys were getting their
Speaker 5: dick sucked, whereas at Inferno nobody wanted to be seen
Speaker 5: doing that. But things are very different now.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah they are. Yeah, who's like, why?
Speaker 5: No? No, No, very different now. Inferno is is such
Speaker 5: a wonderful space with I think it's pretty singular in
Speaker 5: that there are lots of like the The idea is
Speaker 5: no fucking shade, right, which really promotes a lot of community.
Speaker 5: In my opinion, The idea for Transferno as it is
Speaker 5: now is that if we center one group of people,
Speaker 5: it doesn't mean that we exclude others. It means that
Speaker 5: we can uplift these people and give them lots of
Speaker 5: attention and then everybody can come join and celebrate and
Speaker 5: do whatever it is that they do.
Speaker 1: What has been your hottest experience? While I transfer no.
Speaker 5: Hottest, I don't know about hottest. I always have great,
Speaker 5: amazing times. There was one of my favorites was there
Speaker 5: was this big bear in the sling and I love
Speaker 5: a bear, and I was just like, all right, well
Speaker 5: I'll go up to him. And he was into it,
Speaker 5: and so, you know, his legs were up, he was
Speaker 5: in the sling. So I started playing with his ass
Speaker 5: and you know, I just felt his asshole just soften
Speaker 5: around my fingers. And the more I gave him, the
Speaker 5: more he could take. And I was like, I'm not
Speaker 5: going to push you if you don't want it, but
Speaker 5: I bet you can. I bet you can take my fist.
Speaker 5: And and so he just he produced a backpack that
Speaker 5: had jaylube, so he was ready. You bet right, he
Speaker 5: was super ready. Like I I got all the way
Speaker 5: in there. It was amazing. It was really super hot,
Speaker 5: and it was it was the location of the sling
Speaker 5: was somewhere where lots of people were watching. I'm not
Speaker 5: someone I know the one.
Speaker 1: It's one.
Speaker 5: Thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that thing has truly accommodated all of Brooklyn.
Speaker 1: That's amazing.
Speaker 2: Sentos, thank you so much for joining us. We also
Speaker 2: got to thank Jules Rosscom for joining us remotely. What
Speaker 2: a wonderful interview.
Speaker 1: Where can folks find you online.
Speaker 5: I have a podcast called King Punk's k I n
Speaker 5: K p U n X. Folks can find Transferreno through
Speaker 5: the Inferno Party, which has a substack n y C
Speaker 5: Inferno dot substack dot com.
Speaker 1: Perfect Cool, Thank You.
Speaker 2: Sniffy's Cruising Confessions is a production from Outspoken podcast Network
Speaker 2: from iHeart Podcasts. It's directed by Adam Barron, produced by
Speaker 2: Stevie Williams and Cameron Femino, and executive producers by Eli Martins.
Speaker 2: Cruising Confessions is presented by Snippy's, the ultimate map based
Speaker 2: cruising platform for gay by and.
Speaker 1: Curious people ready to cruz. Check out the map at
Speaker 1: Sniffy's dot com.
Speaker 2: And follow Snippy's on socials at Sniffy's appo.
Speaker 5: What put Your put your poots to?
Speaker 3: Y mm hmm,