WEBVTT - Update: Steven Donziger's Trial in New York 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:15.840 Welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt, and it has 0:00:15.960 --> 0:00:20.400 been quite a month for climate nudes. A week ago, 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:27.200 the International Energy Agency issued a shocking report for them, 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:31.880 saying that we need to end new fossil fuel developments now, 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:36.240 not twenty years from now, not ten years from now. Today. 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:42.839 This is Henry Kissinger's International Energy Agency, folks, not a 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:46.599 bunch of tree hugging hippies, and they're saying something that 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:50.559 even progressive politicians who think we should act on climate 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:54.400 have been kind of afraid to say. That was a 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:58.600 huge deal. Then this week, a Dutch court ordered Shell 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:03.240 to cut emissions from both its operations and its products 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:10.080 forty twenty thirty. That ruling sets a huge precedent for 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:14.800 climate cases around the globe, and shareholder meetings in the 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:19.280 US this week didn't go the industry's way either. Exonmobile 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:23.720 had to give up two board seats to climate activist 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:26.960 shareholders who have vowed to push the company away from 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:31.080 oil and gas and toward climate action, and Chevron shareholders 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:35.959 voted in favor of a proposal to cut emissions generated 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:41.000 by the company's products. Chevron shareholders also voiced concern over 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:47.200 the company's continued pursuit of human rights activist Stephen Donziger, 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:49.960 who was in court in New York earlier this month 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:54.360 facing criminal contempt charges related to his work on the 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:59.760 case against Chevron in Ecuador. I didn't say Attorney Stephen Donziger. 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:05.440 They because Chevron successfully got Donziger disbarred last year. If 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:08.399 you haven't listened to our season on that case, it's 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:11.320 a quick way to get caught up. It's litigation that's 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:15.240 been going on for thirty years. Today, I've got Paul 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:19.600 Buzzyminho from Amazon Watch here with an update. He was 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:22.440 in the courtroom last week and says the judge in 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:27.840 that case against Donziger seems intent on sending him to jail. 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:32.000 That update coming up after this quick break. 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:41.120 Let's maybe start with just like day one showing up, 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:43.720 what was the kind of the vibe in the courtroom? 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:47.200 It it was, you know, I've been working in some 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:50.680 way on this case for fourteen years. Right that rally 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:53.720 the opening day of Donzier's trial was one of the 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:58.600 highest energy, most engaged groups that I've seen in a 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:02.960 decade in the US, especially involved in this case. Like 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:06.520 we've had many protests that shareholder meetings. There are obviously 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:09.480 there's more issues with Chevron than just this case, but 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:12.000 this case is such an important one. But I was 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:14.760 so amazed at the level and the amount of support 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:19.160 and interest behind Donzinger, and I see that as the 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:22.480 failure of Chevron and give some done strategy. I mean, 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:24.800 this is the last thing that they wanted to make 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:28.600 Donzinger into a hero. But by going after him to 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:31.959 the level that they have, they've done that. They've turned 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:36.640 the narrative around to why would any judge do this? 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:41.360 Why would the US judicial system allow this? Oh, hustle 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:45.600 fuel industry is behind this, And then you realize this 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:50.920 is one guy going up against an unbelievably powerful force 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:53.800 that is seeking to destroy him, just like he's been 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:58.040 saying for years. But now people can visualize what that. 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:01.200 Looks like the private secutor in the fact that the 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:04.440 private prosecutor has links to Chevron, And then you know, 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:08.120 I just saw a few days ago when Stephen posted 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:12.560 the log where they had met with Chevron's lawyer several times, 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:15.360 and that means time to where I'm just like, this 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:19.719 just doesn't look good. No matter what you think of Stephen, 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:23.320 even if you think this Stephen Donziger. Guy is skeeduy, 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:28.520 this is unheard of. And the fact that he has 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:31.800 already been on house arrest for what more than six 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:38.680 hundred days? Now, yeah, let's call it almost two years 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:41.719 for a crime in air quotes that comes with a 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:43.839 six month sentence and the crime. 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:46.680 That's really what the point is about, right. They wanted 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:50.720 to be officially a crime because all he did was 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:54.400 resist a judge's order in a civil case. Okay, it's 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:57.839 a federal judge, and okay, you're supposed to do certain things, 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:01.520 but that's not a crime. They need criminalize him so 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:03.120 that when he picks up the one who tries to 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:06.720 talk to you know, the press or members of Congress 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:10.240 or other judges outside of the United States want to 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:11.840 be able to say, you're honor this man has been 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:13.919 convicted in the United States. Why are you listening to 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:17.480 him or don't feature him? He's been He's a convicted criminal. 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:18.040 Okay. 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:23.240 So what was Judge Presca like in the courtroom? 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:26.840 So I was I've been thinking about how to how 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:29.400 I would raise this. I'm not I was not at 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:34.960 all surprised, but I was continually shocked by her level 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:38.520 of disdain and dismissal for Donziger and the defense team. 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:42.240 She didn't even pretend to hide the fact that she 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:44.719 was going to keep arguing with the defense and that 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:47.640 she was so happy to be listening to the prosecution, 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:50.720 except for when she felt like reading the paper, which 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:53.240 she did several times and. 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:55.159 What like during the defense. 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:59.760 During the trial, Yeah, during all parts, almost every day, 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:02.359 I saw a newspaper on her desk, and occasionally she 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:05.400 would flip the page. And you know, this is a 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:08.960 criminal trial, like someone's fate of going to jail hangs 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:12.480 in the balance. You shouldn't be reading a newspaper. And apparently, 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:14.599 you know, they're allowed to have that on the desk. 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:18.160 It's not like you can't file a judicial miscondent complaint 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:21.160 for that, but you should be able to, especially when 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:26.240 her demeanor towards like Marti Garbus, who's you know, a 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:30.280 renowned that claims lawyers work you know with with Nelson, 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:34.160 Mandela and so many other leadership, says our Chavez, and 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.200 here's this iconic defender of the rights of people who've 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:42.039 been attacked by governments and others, and she argued with him, 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:48.360 she raided him. She continually stopped him in mid sentence 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:50.640 whenever he was trying to speak, and he was bringing 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:55.800 some really important constitutional challenges now with the caveat right, 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:58.400 I'm not a lawyer. I've just spent so many times 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:02.039 in court listening to all this stuff. His argument was 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:06.479 that Rita Glevin and Sorting Kissel had said on the 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:09.080 record in court that they were not being supervised in 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:12.920 any way by the Department of Justice. Now, this Rule 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:15.760 forty two thing, which is really bizarre, allowing a federal 0:07:15.880 --> 0:07:18.680 judge to appoint a private prosecutor. It doesn't mean that 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:22.200 once they do that, they can therefore act however they 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:27.240 so choose. Right, they build over a million dollars already, Right, 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:30.840 a federal prosecutor would not do that. They can't do that. 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:34.200 They shouldn't never charge by the hour, because it's not 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:38.080 in their interest to enrich themselves to prosecute a crime. 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:42.760 But they should have some oversight by a government institution. 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:45.920 So Garbus was trying to argue that we need to know, 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:49.600 the defense needs to know what the DOJ was or 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:54.040 wasn't doing, and Prescot would not allow him to seek 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:58.480 that kind of discovery, saying that it didn't pertain strictly 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:02.240 to these contempt charges, and she said on day one 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:07.480 that it wouldn't matter whether or not Captain's orders were 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:10.640 overturned on appeal by the Second Circuit. He received an 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:13.520 order from a federal judge, didn't comply with that order. 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:16.040 He was held in contempt. So she said pretty much 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:18.800 right at the outset, like I'm convicting you. I see 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:22.120 that you have committed contempt of court. And that's what 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:26.200 these charges are. And that's why Donzeinger realized, Okay, there's 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:29.640 no point in testifying. This isn't about us mounting a defense. 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:31.920 This is about getting things on the record so that 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:35.880 when we appeal, a fair minded judge will actually look 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:40.520 at what's the orchestration of this entire effort to lock 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:44.000 him up. And that's how the questions on cross examination 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:47.680 were phrased to show how many hours did Getson done 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:53.760 volunteer to work with the prosecutor. How did you expect 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:56.200 that Stephen Donzinger was going to pay back the eight 0:08:56.280 --> 0:08:58.800 hundred thousand dollars that Gibson done, said it owes in 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:01.480 legal fees. Gibson done was trying to get his law 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:03.679 license taken away. Makes it kind of hard to make 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:06.000 a living as a lawyer if you can't to pay 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:11.160 the money back if you have no profession. There were 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:15.600 arguments that they spent way more money going after him 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:18.440 than they ever expected to collect, because of course the 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:20.319 objective was not about the money. 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:25.360 Did this stuff about, you know, Chevron's attorneys meeting with 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:29.600 the private prosecutors come out in the in the trial. 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:31.120 Could you talk a little bit about that? 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:36.000 It was quite interesting because to the two principal witnesses 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:40.160 were Anne Champion and William Thompson from Gibson Done. And 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:44.520 Champion started as an associate before the Rico charges were filed. 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:46.880 She was involved in the seventeen eighty two filings, so 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:51.200 prior to twenty ten, I think, and then she was 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:54.000 involved all the way through the reco case. And so 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:58.720 she has kind of when the prosecution asked her, she 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:01.160 had kind of an encyclic takes knowledge of the case. 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:04.000 When the defense asked her questions, all of a sudden, 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.360 she kind of had a hard time remembering things. But 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:10.120 as they were going through questioning her, you know, Ron 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:13.360 Koby for the defense would ask how many meetings did 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:17.320 you have with it with the rita Glevin and Sorting Kissel, 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:22.600 calling them the private prosecutor, not giving them the not 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:25.440 really respecting the idea that they're supposed to be acting 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:28.480 as federal prosecutors. They were called the private prosecutor. And 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:32.280 she talked about meetings that went on for several hours, 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:35.760 like seven hours long zoom call with her and other 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:41.480 partners that gets and done, all preparing for this testimony. 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:47.600 Now that you know they have it received subpoenas to testify, 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:51.559 but they haven't received subpoenas to meet with the prosecutor. 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:54.040 That's something that they did of their own free will. 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:56.880 And as Ron Kobe would ask, he would say, so, 0:10:57.240 --> 0:11:00.520 how many hours did you volunteer? And both lawyers would say, well, 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:04.280 I wouldn't. I wouldn't put it that way. I wasn't volunteering. Okay, Well, 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:06.960 then were you compelled to do so by law? 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:07.600 No? 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:10.880 I wasn't. Well were you billing Chevron for the time 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:13.520 that you spent? Well, no, because this doesn't pertain to 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:17.000 Chefron's litigation, So that means you volunteered, Like that's the 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:22.160 definition of volunteering your time. But they were so belligerent 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:25.880 that they refused to even respond with a yes or 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:28.800 no when asked yes or no questions. A great example 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:31.880 was a one point ron Kuby said, so did Caplin, 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:36.240 So Kaplyn rejected that order a request of Gibson done 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:38.480 and one of the back and forth right, and the 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:41.880 response was, well, I wouldn't say that he declined to 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:47.960 accept it. Fobes like your honor, can you please just 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:51.040 direct the witness to answer the question yes or no? 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:54.480 And it got to the level of the absurd when 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:59.960 they Ron put up an exhibit which was the filing 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:03.280 of the reco charges, the first document filing the reco 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:07.080 charges and Randy Master's signature is at the bottom of 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:10.280 the page and a line checking a box that says 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:14.480 damages to be assessed to be determined at the trial, 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:17.240 because originally they were seeking money damages, and then the 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:20.560 box was checked for a jury. Right of course, we 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:23.760 know famously they dropped the money damages. They didn't want 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:25.440 a jury and they never got it. And you know 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.880 Kaplin refused to give Steven donzing Our a jury. But 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:31.720 it was Randy's signature at the bottom. Everybody could read that. 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.360 It was up on the screen, William Thompson's like I 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:38.440 can't quite tell what that is. So ron Koby's like, okay, 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:40.920 do we need to go through this That first letter, 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:43.480 would you say that that looks like an R? And 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:46.040 William Thompson's like, yeah, I could say that that could 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:48.240 be an odor. The next letter, does it look like 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:48.880 that could be an A? 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:50.160 Yeah, that might be an A. 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:52.839 And they went through every letter of Randy Master's name 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:55.840 before he would admit, Okay, yes it looks like Randy 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:59.800 Master for what purpose? Like there, it's not a crime. 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:02.720 There's nothing nefarious about Randy mastero being the one who 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:04.800 signs it. It's just a thing you want to give 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:10.240 the defense. Even that she overturned every single objection of 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:14.240 the defense but one, and she sustained every objection to 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:17.160 the prosecution butt one. So it was so clear from 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:20.760 the beginning that this was Presca, you know, going through 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:23.400 the motions, getting in on the record so that she 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:26.280 can get to a conviction. And that's why I really 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:28.600 think Steven Donzrier made the right move and not testifying 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:30.560 because it wouldn't have helped him in any way. 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:35.280 So what happens next now the you know, everything has 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:40.360 rested right, So I imagine Presca will have a decision soon, so. 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:42.480 She gave two weeks. They have two weeks to file 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:45.480 their final papers, so there's no like closing arguments, but 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:49.480 each side files last documents after that, so two weeks 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:53.079 from yesterday and then she said she would rule very quickly, 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:58.480 but that doesn't mean Sole sentenced very quickly. So we 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:01.640 don't know how long it's going to take before she decides, 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:04.679 if there's any jail time, if it's partial, if it's 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:08.080 six months the maximum. We'll find out at some point, 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:12.360 probably in June, maybe the end of June, but it's 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:15.160 really hard to say. And you know, Stephen Downzier is 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:18.720 just wondering every day if and when he's going to jail. Meanwhile, 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:21.800 he's still stuck on home detention. He's still wearing an 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:26.520 ankle bracelet and still fighting these orders from Kaplan. 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:30.720 Okay, well, two things. One would any part of the. 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:36.280 Judgment like force him to comply with Kaplan's order? And Two, 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.480 what's happening with the civil contempt charge? Because I know, 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:43.400 like the judgment and that was expected, and you know, 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:47.200 if that were to go, if that were to be dismissed, 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:50.560 it would sort of eliminate the whole basis of this charge, right, 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:52.320 So what's happening with that. 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:56.400 Well, as far as what this does, I don't think 0:14:56.800 --> 0:15:00.720 actually it does. He's already surrendered his passport. I think 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:04.360 this would just be jail time. I believe it's the 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:07.920 other orders, because this is just about the contempt. It's 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:11.000 not about the orders. Did he or didn't he go 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:13.960 into contempt and he volunteered that he was willingly going 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:15.640 to civil content, not criminal. 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:21.400 Contempt right the other you know, it's been all. 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:25.800 That Donzinger could do to defend himself against this. Meanwhile, 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:28.280 mounting an appeal of all these other things with the 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:30.880 second Circuit takes a lot of time and energy and 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:33.640 legal muscle, and most of this has done pro bono, 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:36.560 you know. So I'm not sure where all of those 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:41.720 appeals stand. But what's really significant to this case was 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:46.400 that the recent decision in Donzinger's favor was about clarifying 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:50.680 Caplin's order about what he could or couldn't do with 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:55.360 the judgment and selling basically shares of the judgment in 0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:59.440 order to finance enforcement efforts. So he was continuing to 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:02.200 work with people to do that, which is how Canada happened, 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:06.640 and presumably more enforcement actually would happen, and Caplan's order 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:10.640 was too vague because Kaplin's order basically says, as you know, 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:13.920 Steven can't monetize the Equatorian judgment in the United States, 0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:16.040 he can't find it from it, But it doesn't say 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:20.000 that he can't take portions of other people's portion of 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:22.120 it and then bring it to investors and others to 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:26.520 support the case. And Chevron said, no, he can't do that. 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:28.760 Stephen said, yeah, the way I read it, we can't 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:31.160 do that. Caplain, can you please clarify this, which he 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:34.240 refused to do for a year, and then the Second 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:37.640 Circuit came down, and trust me, there's nothing that they 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:41.000 hate more than overruling Caplin. They wanted to. If they 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:43.800 could have figured out how to dismiss all of his appeals, 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:45.760 they would have, but they couldn't because it was so 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:46.640 poorly written. 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:51.440 They agreed this was not clear. So that's the underlying 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:55.840 basis for all the subsequent stuff that Chevron was throwing it. 0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:59.600 But PRESCA wouldn't allow that to be brought up in 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:03.320 any way as part of the defense. And that's the 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:06.400 real crux of why this wasn't a case about justice, 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:09.320 because if you don't get to explain what's happening and why. 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:12.480 If it's just a matter of you were told to 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:14.920 do X, you did, why therefore, Z you. 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:16.840 Could have a computer issue a burden. You don't need 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:20.280 a human being to make a decision. So in what 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:24.960 goes forward now, he still has to continue appealing some 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:27.679 of Kaplan's orders, and I don't honestly, I don't know 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:32.320 when or if they will come down and say, yeah, 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:34.640 we're rejecting everything and now you need to turn over 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:37.320 your computer and cell phone. That could still happen, and 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:40.160 you know, as he has said, if that happens, he'll 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:42.280 do what he's supposed to do. He never said he 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:46.920 was going to defy every court. He was going to 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:51.120 appeal and then act on that decision. So I don't 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:53.200 know when that's going to come. But honestly, right now 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:58.040 he has to appeal the criminal contempt charges, so everything 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:00.520 gets pushed even further and this could be another year 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:04.200 before the decision is even made on those things. And 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:06.879 while you know, everybody loses sight of the fact that 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:11.240 every single day this contamination is still affecting people, and 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:15.000 that's every day that judge says come back tomorrow. We're 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:17.199 a journey like you can adjourn for lunch in New 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:20.240 York and have a nice little lunch in the cafeteria. Meanwhile, 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:23.679 tens of thousands of people are still affected by the 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:25.480 water and equidard that knows the FEEDA. 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:40.639 That's it for this time. Thanks for listening. If you 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:43.840 would like to support our work, you can join us 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:49.480 at Patreon. That is patreon dot com slash drilled. We 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:54.520 are bringing you several stories on the natural gas industry, 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:59.240 it's history, its impacts, and some of its crazy tactics 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:03.840 coming up starting in June and running through the end. 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:04.400 Of the year. 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:08.520 We've also got some more projects coming up on disinformation 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:15.919 across industries and several international climate cases, So stay tuned 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:18.840 for all of that and we'll see you soon.