1 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt, and it has 2 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: been quite a month for climate nudes. A week ago, 3 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: the International Energy Agency issued a shocking report for them, 4 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: saying that we need to end new fossil fuel developments now, 5 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: not twenty years from now, not ten years from now. Today. 6 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: This is Henry Kissinger's International Energy Agency, folks, not a 7 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,599 Speaker 1: bunch of tree hugging hippies, and they're saying something that 8 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 1: even progressive politicians who think we should act on climate 9 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: have been kind of afraid to say. That was a 10 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: huge deal. Then this week, a Dutch court ordered Shell 11 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: to cut emissions from both its operations and its products 12 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: forty twenty thirty. That ruling sets a huge precedent for 13 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: climate cases around the globe, and shareholder meetings in the 14 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: US this week didn't go the industry's way either. Exonmobile 15 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: had to give up two board seats to climate activist 16 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 1: shareholders who have vowed to push the company away from 17 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: oil and gas and toward climate action, and Chevron shareholders 18 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: voted in favor of a proposal to cut emissions generated 19 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: by the company's products. Chevron shareholders also voiced concern over 20 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: the company's continued pursuit of human rights activist Stephen Donziger, 21 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: who was in court in New York earlier this month 22 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: facing criminal contempt charges related to his work on the 23 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: case against Chevron in Ecuador. I didn't say Attorney Stephen Donziger. 24 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: They because Chevron successfully got Donziger disbarred last year. If 25 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,399 Speaker 1: you haven't listened to our season on that case, it's 26 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: a quick way to get caught up. It's litigation that's 27 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: been going on for thirty years. Today, I've got Paul 28 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: Buzzyminho from Amazon Watch here with an update. He was 29 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: in the courtroom last week and says the judge in 30 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: that case against Donziger seems intent on sending him to jail. 31 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: That update coming up after this quick break. 32 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 2: Let's maybe start with just like day one showing up, 33 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 2: what was the kind of the vibe in the courtroom? 34 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 3: It it was, you know, I've been working in some 35 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 3: way on this case for fourteen years. Right that rally 36 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 3: the opening day of Donzier's trial was one of the 37 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 3: highest energy, most engaged groups that I've seen in a 38 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 3: decade in the US, especially involved in this case. Like 39 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 3: we've had many protests that shareholder meetings. There are obviously 40 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 3: there's more issues with Chevron than just this case, but 41 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 3: this case is such an important one. But I was 42 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 3: so amazed at the level and the amount of support 43 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 3: and interest behind Donzinger, and I see that as the 44 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 3: failure of Chevron and give some done strategy. I mean, 45 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 3: this is the last thing that they wanted to make 46 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 3: Donzinger into a hero. But by going after him to 47 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,959 Speaker 3: the level that they have, they've done that. They've turned 48 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 3: the narrative around to why would any judge do this? 49 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 3: Why would the US judicial system allow this? Oh, hustle 50 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 3: fuel industry is behind this, And then you realize this 51 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 3: is one guy going up against an unbelievably powerful force 52 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 3: that is seeking to destroy him, just like he's been 53 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 3: saying for years. But now people can visualize what that. 54 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 2: Looks like the private secutor in the fact that the 55 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 2: private prosecutor has links to Chevron, And then you know, 56 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 2: I just saw a few days ago when Stephen posted 57 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 2: the log where they had met with Chevron's lawyer several times, 58 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 2: and that means time to where I'm just like, this 59 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 2: just doesn't look good. No matter what you think of Stephen, 60 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 2: even if you think this Stephen Donziger. Guy is skeeduy, 61 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 2: this is unheard of. And the fact that he has 62 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 2: already been on house arrest for what more than six 63 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 2: hundred days? Now, yeah, let's call it almost two years 64 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 2: for a crime in air quotes that comes with a 65 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 2: six month sentence and the crime. 66 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 3: That's really what the point is about, right. They wanted 67 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 3: to be officially a crime because all he did was 68 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 3: resist a judge's order in a civil case. Okay, it's 69 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 3: a federal judge, and okay, you're supposed to do certain things, 70 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 3: but that's not a crime. They need criminalize him so 71 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 3: that when he picks up the one who tries to 72 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 3: talk to you know, the press or members of Congress 73 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 3: or other judges outside of the United States want to 74 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 3: be able to say, you're honor this man has been 75 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:13,919 Speaker 3: convicted in the United States. Why are you listening to 76 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 3: him or don't feature him? He's been He's a convicted criminal. 77 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 4: Okay. 78 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 2: So what was Judge Presca like in the courtroom? 79 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 3: So I was I've been thinking about how to how 80 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 3: I would raise this. I'm not I was not at 81 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 3: all surprised, but I was continually shocked by her level 82 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 3: of disdain and dismissal for Donziger and the defense team. 83 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 3: She didn't even pretend to hide the fact that she 84 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 3: was going to keep arguing with the defense and that 85 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 3: she was so happy to be listening to the prosecution, 86 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 3: except for when she felt like reading the paper, which 87 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 3: she did several times and. 88 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 2: What like during the defense. 89 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 3: During the trial, Yeah, during all parts, almost every day, 90 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 3: I saw a newspaper on her desk, and occasionally she 91 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 3: would flip the page. And you know, this is a 92 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 3: criminal trial, like someone's fate of going to jail hangs 93 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 3: in the balance. You shouldn't be reading a newspaper. And apparently, 94 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 3: you know, they're allowed to have that on the desk. 95 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 3: It's not like you can't file a judicial miscondent complaint 96 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,160 Speaker 3: for that, but you should be able to, especially when 97 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 3: her demeanor towards like Marti Garbus, who's you know, a 98 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 3: renowned that claims lawyers work you know with with Nelson, 99 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 3: Mandela and so many other leadership, says our Chavez, and 100 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 3: here's this iconic defender of the rights of people who've 101 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 3: been attacked by governments and others, and she argued with him, 102 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 3: she raided him. She continually stopped him in mid sentence 103 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 3: whenever he was trying to speak, and he was bringing 104 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 3: some really important constitutional challenges now with the caveat right, 105 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 3: I'm not a lawyer. I've just spent so many times 106 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 3: in court listening to all this stuff. His argument was 107 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 3: that Rita Glevin and Sorting Kissel had said on the 108 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 3: record in court that they were not being supervised in 109 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 3: any way by the Department of Justice. Now, this Rule 110 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 3: forty two thing, which is really bizarre, allowing a federal 111 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 3: judge to appoint a private prosecutor. It doesn't mean that 112 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 3: once they do that, they can therefore act however they 113 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 3: so choose. Right, they build over a million dollars already, Right, 114 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 3: a federal prosecutor would not do that. They can't do that. 115 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 3: They shouldn't never charge by the hour, because it's not 116 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 3: in their interest to enrich themselves to prosecute a crime. 117 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 3: But they should have some oversight by a government institution. 118 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 3: So Garbus was trying to argue that we need to know, 119 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 3: the defense needs to know what the DOJ was or 120 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 3: wasn't doing, and Prescot would not allow him to seek 121 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 3: that kind of discovery, saying that it didn't pertain strictly 122 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 3: to these contempt charges, and she said on day one 123 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 3: that it wouldn't matter whether or not Captain's orders were 124 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 3: overturned on appeal by the Second Circuit. He received an 125 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 3: order from a federal judge, didn't comply with that order. 126 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 3: He was held in contempt. So she said pretty much 127 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 3: right at the outset, like I'm convicting you. I see 128 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 3: that you have committed contempt of court. And that's what 129 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 3: these charges are. And that's why Donzeinger realized, Okay, there's 130 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 3: no point in testifying. This isn't about us mounting a defense. 131 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 3: This is about getting things on the record so that 132 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 3: when we appeal, a fair minded judge will actually look 133 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 3: at what's the orchestration of this entire effort to lock 134 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 3: him up. And that's how the questions on cross examination 135 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 3: were phrased to show how many hours did Getson done 136 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 3: volunteer to work with the prosecutor. How did you expect 137 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 3: that Stephen Donzinger was going to pay back the eight 138 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 3: hundred thousand dollars that Gibson done, said it owes in 139 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 3: legal fees. Gibson done was trying to get his law 140 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 3: license taken away. Makes it kind of hard to make 141 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 3: a living as a lawyer if you can't to pay 142 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 3: the money back if you have no profession. There were 143 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 3: arguments that they spent way more money going after him 144 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 3: than they ever expected to collect, because of course the 145 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 3: objective was not about the money. 146 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 2: Did this stuff about, you know, Chevron's attorneys meeting with 147 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 2: the private prosecutors come out in the in the trial. 148 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 2: Could you talk a little bit about that? 149 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 3: It was quite interesting because to the two principal witnesses 150 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 3: were Anne Champion and William Thompson from Gibson Done. And 151 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 3: Champion started as an associate before the Rico charges were filed. 152 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 3: She was involved in the seventeen eighty two filings, so 153 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 3: prior to twenty ten, I think, and then she was 154 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 3: involved all the way through the reco case. And so 155 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 3: she has kind of when the prosecution asked her, she 156 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 3: had kind of an encyclic takes knowledge of the case. 157 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 3: When the defense asked her questions, all of a sudden, 158 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 3: she kind of had a hard time remembering things. But 159 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 3: as they were going through questioning her, you know, Ron 160 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 3: Koby for the defense would ask how many meetings did 161 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 3: you have with it with the rita Glevin and Sorting Kissel, 162 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 3: calling them the private prosecutor, not giving them the not 163 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 3: really respecting the idea that they're supposed to be acting 164 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 3: as federal prosecutors. They were called the private prosecutor. And 165 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 3: she talked about meetings that went on for several hours, 166 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 3: like seven hours long zoom call with her and other 167 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 3: partners that gets and done, all preparing for this testimony. 168 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 3: Now that you know they have it received subpoenas to testify, 169 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,559 Speaker 3: but they haven't received subpoenas to meet with the prosecutor. 170 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 3: That's something that they did of their own free will. 171 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 3: And as Ron Kobe would ask, he would say, so, 172 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 3: how many hours did you volunteer? And both lawyers would say, well, 173 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 3: I wouldn't. I wouldn't put it that way. I wasn't volunteering. Okay, Well, 174 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 3: then were you compelled to do so by law? 175 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 4: No? 176 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 3: I wasn't. Well were you billing Chevron for the time 177 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 3: that you spent? Well, no, because this doesn't pertain to 178 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 3: Chefron's litigation, So that means you volunteered, Like that's the 179 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 3: definition of volunteering your time. But they were so belligerent 180 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 3: that they refused to even respond with a yes or 181 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 3: no when asked yes or no questions. A great example 182 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 3: was a one point ron Kuby said, so did Caplin, 183 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 3: So Kaplyn rejected that order a request of Gibson done 184 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 3: and one of the back and forth right, and the 185 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 3: response was, well, I wouldn't say that he declined to 186 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 3: accept it. Fobes like your honor, can you please just 187 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 3: direct the witness to answer the question yes or no? 188 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 3: And it got to the level of the absurd when 189 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 3: they Ron put up an exhibit which was the filing 190 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 3: of the reco charges, the first document filing the reco 191 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 3: charges and Randy Master's signature is at the bottom of 192 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 3: the page and a line checking a box that says 193 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 3: damages to be assessed to be determined at the trial, 194 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 3: because originally they were seeking money damages, and then the 195 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 3: box was checked for a jury. Right of course, we 196 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 3: know famously they dropped the money damages. They didn't want 197 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 3: a jury and they never got it. And you know 198 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 3: Kaplin refused to give Steven donzing Our a jury. But 199 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 3: it was Randy's signature at the bottom. Everybody could read that. 200 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 3: It was up on the screen, William Thompson's like I 201 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 3: can't quite tell what that is. So ron Koby's like, okay, 202 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 3: do we need to go through this That first letter, 203 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 3: would you say that that looks like an R? And 204 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 3: William Thompson's like, yeah, I could say that that could 205 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 3: be an odor. The next letter, does it look like 206 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 3: that could be an A? 207 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, that might be an A. 208 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:52,839 Speaker 3: And they went through every letter of Randy Master's name 209 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 3: before he would admit, Okay, yes it looks like Randy 210 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 3: Master for what purpose? Like there, it's not a crime. 211 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 3: There's nothing nefarious about Randy mastero being the one who 212 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 3: signs it. It's just a thing you want to give 213 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 3: the defense. Even that she overturned every single objection of 214 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 3: the defense but one, and she sustained every objection to 215 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 3: the prosecution butt one. So it was so clear from 216 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 3: the beginning that this was Presca, you know, going through 217 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 3: the motions, getting in on the record so that she 218 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 3: can get to a conviction. And that's why I really 219 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 3: think Steven Donzrier made the right move and not testifying 220 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 3: because it wouldn't have helped him in any way. 221 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 2: So what happens next now the you know, everything has 222 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 2: rested right, So I imagine Presca will have a decision soon, so. 223 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 3: She gave two weeks. They have two weeks to file 224 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 3: their final papers, so there's no like closing arguments, but 225 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 3: each side files last documents after that, so two weeks 226 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:53,079 Speaker 3: from yesterday and then she said she would rule very quickly, 227 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 3: but that doesn't mean Sole sentenced very quickly. So we 228 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 3: don't know how long it's going to take before she decides, 229 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 3: if there's any jail time, if it's partial, if it's 230 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 3: six months the maximum. We'll find out at some point, 231 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 3: probably in June, maybe the end of June, but it's 232 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 3: really hard to say. And you know, Stephen Downzier is 233 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 3: just wondering every day if and when he's going to jail. Meanwhile, 234 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 3: he's still stuck on home detention. He's still wearing an 235 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 3: ankle bracelet and still fighting these orders from Kaplan. 236 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 2: Okay, well, two things. One would any part of the. 237 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 5: Judgment like force him to comply with Kaplan's order? And Two, 238 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 5: what's happening with the civil contempt charge? Because I know, 239 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 5: like the judgment and that was expected, and you know, 240 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 5: if that were to go, if that were to be dismissed, 241 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 5: it would sort of eliminate the whole basis of this charge, right, 242 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 5: So what's happening with that. 243 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 3: Well, as far as what this does, I don't think 244 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 3: actually it does. He's already surrendered his passport. I think 245 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 3: this would just be jail time. I believe it's the 246 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 3: other orders, because this is just about the contempt. It's 247 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 3: not about the orders. Did he or didn't he go 248 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 3: into contempt and he volunteered that he was willingly going 249 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 3: to civil content, not criminal. 250 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 4: Contempt right the other you know, it's been all. 251 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 3: That Donzinger could do to defend himself against this. Meanwhile, 252 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 3: mounting an appeal of all these other things with the 253 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 3: second Circuit takes a lot of time and energy and 254 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 3: legal muscle, and most of this has done pro bono, 255 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 3: you know. So I'm not sure where all of those 256 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 3: appeals stand. But what's really significant to this case was 257 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 3: that the recent decision in Donzinger's favor was about clarifying 258 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 3: Caplin's order about what he could or couldn't do with 259 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 3: the judgment and selling basically shares of the judgment in 260 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 3: order to finance enforcement efforts. So he was continuing to 261 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 3: work with people to do that, which is how Canada happened, 262 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 3: and presumably more enforcement actually would happen, and Caplan's order 263 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 3: was too vague because Kaplin's order basically says, as you know, 264 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 3: Steven can't monetize the Equatorian judgment in the United States, 265 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 3: he can't find it from it, But it doesn't say 266 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 3: that he can't take portions of other people's portion of 267 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 3: it and then bring it to investors and others to 268 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 3: support the case. And Chevron said, no, he can't do that. 269 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 3: Stephen said, yeah, the way I read it, we can't 270 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 3: do that. Caplain, can you please clarify this, which he 271 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 3: refused to do for a year, and then the Second 272 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 3: Circuit came down, and trust me, there's nothing that they 273 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 3: hate more than overruling Caplin. They wanted to. If they 274 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 3: could have figured out how to dismiss all of his appeals, 275 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 3: they would have, but they couldn't because it was so 276 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 3: poorly written. 277 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 4: They agreed this was not clear. So that's the underlying 278 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 4: basis for all the subsequent stuff that Chevron was throwing it. 279 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 4: But PRESCA wouldn't allow that to be brought up in 280 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 4: any way as part of the defense. And that's the 281 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 4: real crux of why this wasn't a case about justice, 282 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 4: because if you don't get to explain what's happening and why. 283 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 4: If it's just a matter of you were told to 284 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 4: do X, you did, why therefore, Z you. 285 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 3: Could have a computer issue a burden. You don't need 286 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 3: a human being to make a decision. So in what 287 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 3: goes forward now, he still has to continue appealing some 288 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 3: of Kaplan's orders, and I don't honestly, I don't know 289 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 3: when or if they will come down and say, yeah, 290 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 3: we're rejecting everything and now you need to turn over 291 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 3: your computer and cell phone. That could still happen, and 292 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,160 Speaker 3: you know, as he has said, if that happens, he'll 293 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 3: do what he's supposed to do. He never said he 294 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 3: was going to defy every court. He was going to 295 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:51,120 Speaker 3: appeal and then act on that decision. So I don't 296 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 3: know when that's going to come. But honestly, right now 297 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 3: he has to appeal the criminal contempt charges, so everything 298 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 3: gets pushed even further and this could be another year 299 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:04,200 Speaker 3: before the decision is even made on those things. And 300 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 3: while you know, everybody loses sight of the fact that 301 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 3: every single day this contamination is still affecting people, and 302 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 3: that's every day that judge says come back tomorrow. We're 303 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,199 Speaker 3: a journey like you can adjourn for lunch in New 304 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 3: York and have a nice little lunch in the cafeteria. Meanwhile, 305 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 3: tens of thousands of people are still affected by the 306 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 3: water and equidard that knows the FEEDA. 307 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 1: That's it for this time. Thanks for listening. If you 308 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: would like to support our work, you can join us 309 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: at Patreon. That is patreon dot com slash drilled. We 310 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: are bringing you several stories on the natural gas industry, 311 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: it's history, its impacts, and some of its crazy tactics 312 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: coming up starting in June and running through the end. 313 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:04,400 Speaker 3: Of the year. 314 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: We've also got some more projects coming up on disinformation 315 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:15,919 Speaker 1: across industries and several international climate cases, So stay tuned 316 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: for all of that and we'll see you soon.