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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey everybody, it's Jake. I hope you enjoyed our

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Speaker 1: special presentation of Snowball. We just wrapped that up with

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Speaker 1: a bonus episode, a conversation between me and Snowball's host

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Speaker 1: Ali Wards. We talked about what it was like for

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Speaker 1: him to make that show, to report on his own

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Speaker 1: family's experience of getting scammed by a woman they thought

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Speaker 1: they could trust, and this conversation, well, it reminded me

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Speaker 1: a lot of the victims of Sarah Cavanaugh, and we

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Speaker 1: talked about the parallels there. Today, I want to bring

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Speaker 1: you back to Sarah's story and to the stories of

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Speaker 1: the veterans and friends who got tangled up in all

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Speaker 1: of this. Earlier this month, I got to sit down

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Speaker 1: with Jess McHugh, my co host for season six The

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Speaker 1: Truth About Sarah, for Deep Covers second ever live event.

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Speaker 1: We met up at WBR City Space in Boston to

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Speaker 1: talk about the value of trust, to share some never

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Speaker 1: before heard tape, and to give an update on what's

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Speaker 1: happened with Sarah since our season ended. And in the

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Speaker 1: spirit of the holidays, we raise some money for Patrol

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Speaker 1: Base of Bate, an organization fighting back against the mental

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Speaker 1: health crisis among veterans by providing retreats and fostering community,

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Speaker 1: all completely free of charge. If you recall, that's the

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Speaker 1: place up in Montana in the mountains where Sarah met

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Speaker 1: Dex and Natalie in our first episode. If you'd like

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Speaker 1: to support Patrol Base of Bate, there's a link in

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Speaker 1: the episode description. I really encourage you to do that.

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Speaker 1: This is the charity of choice for the Halper and

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Speaker 1: Household this year. We just made our donation, and honestly,

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Speaker 1: if you're looking to give somewhere and you're looking to

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Speaker 1: support veterans, I could think of no better place. Okay,

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Speaker 1: now under the show, Thanks all for coming out. We're

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Speaker 1: really excited to have this live show with you. It's

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Speaker 1: gonna be fun. We are gonna play some tape that

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Speaker 1: didn't make the series, some stuff from the cutting room floor,

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Speaker 1: and some cool behind the scenes stuff, and we're also

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Speaker 1: going to try to sing the prices of an awesome

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Speaker 1: charity that was featured in the series, Patrol Base of Batte.

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Speaker 1: That's the place in Montana, the beautiful retreat where veterans

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Speaker 1: can go to kind of regroup and and restore themselves.

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Speaker 1: And we're gonna hope to raise some money for them. Tonight.

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Speaker 1: As we get into this, we're gonna start with basically

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Speaker 1: how this story happened, which I can take no credit for,

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Speaker 1: came from my collaborator, Jess McHugh. Jess, so tell us

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Speaker 1: how this comes on to your radar for sure.

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Speaker 2: So I've been really fascinated by female scammers, women con

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Speaker 2: artists for many years. And so I was, you know,

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Speaker 2: working on this new book that I was trying to pitch,

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Speaker 2: and I was scanning around for kind of characters stories,

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Speaker 2: and so I looked to a little place called the

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Speaker 2: New York Post, which has a very great scam section.

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Speaker 2: I've actually found a lot of good fodder there where

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Speaker 2: it's often, you know, not super in depth, shall we say,

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Speaker 2: five hundred word stories about various things, but a lot

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Speaker 2: of the stories that they cover they cover in a

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Speaker 2: way that I wouldn't do, but have given me ideas

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Speaker 2: for much kind of broader investigations. And so I just

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Speaker 2: saw the headline version, which was something like, you know,

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Speaker 2: twenty six year old social worker steals a quarter of

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Speaker 2: a million dollars pretending to be a wounded marine, and

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Speaker 2: I just felt like I have to know more about that.

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Speaker 1: So, but how do you how do you develop that?

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Speaker 1: Where do you take that from reading that piece to yeah,

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Speaker 1: what's next?

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Speaker 2: The thing that I I love about journalism in general

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Speaker 2: is speaking to the people involved as much and kind

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Speaker 2: of as in depth as possible. So I tracked down Sarah,

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Speaker 2: who was already in prison at the time, and I

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Speaker 2: wrote her a handwritten snail mail letter saying, Hey, this

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Speaker 2: is who I am. We come from very similar backgrounds,

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Speaker 2: small towns in New England, We're about the same age.

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Speaker 2: I really suspect that there is much more to your

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Speaker 2: story than this short piece that I read, and I'd

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Speaker 2: love to hear more. And she wrote back, which I

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Speaker 2: was kind of surprised by.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember that's around the time that we started talking.

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Speaker 1: You'd actually been in correspondence with her, and you were

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Speaker 1: saying that maybe she'll talk. Did you feel optimistic that

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Speaker 1: this would pan out, that she would go on the

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Speaker 1: record with you.

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Speaker 2: I didn't. I'm not really an optimist in general. And

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Speaker 2: I also never want a strong arm someone into talking

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Speaker 2: and have them regret speaking to me. So I always

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Speaker 2: prefer to take it slow and to just say, hey,

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Speaker 2: let's get to know each other. Let me tell you

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Speaker 2: what it is that I'm into, and then you can

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Speaker 2: kind of make up your mind. So it was probably

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Speaker 2: a good three months of us talking on the phone,

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Speaker 2: going back and forth on core Links, which is the

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Speaker 2: online prison service because yes, you know, there's there's no

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Speaker 2: very limited internet access in federal prisons, so she can't

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Speaker 2: even just google who I am and kind of see

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Speaker 2: what I've done. So there was that kind of aspect

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Speaker 2: of getting to know each other as well.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so then Tom Schuman, which this is where we're

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Speaker 1: going to start with our tape that hasn't been heard

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Speaker 1: all of it. Tom Schuman is the person who founded

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Speaker 1: pp abat the retreat in Montana and that hosts Sarah

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Speaker 1: and we go there in the first episode. Tell us

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Speaker 1: about Tom. How did you connect with him?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we're we're both big fans of Tom. I

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Speaker 2: think I might have actually even spoken to him before

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Speaker 2: I spoke to Sarah because he had been i think

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Speaker 2: featured in a couple news articles since pibi Abat was

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Speaker 2: one of the organizations that was stolen from and he's

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Speaker 2: it's just such a likable guy. He's a marine, he's

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Speaker 2: had this like very heroic past, but he also can

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Speaker 2: quote very deep cuts of Shakespeare from memory, which I

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Speaker 2: think is very cool as a comparative literature major. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: we just really hit it off and got to talking

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Speaker 2: and yeah, and he founded Pipiabat in twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 2: so it's a relatively recent organization, and as you said,

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Speaker 2: it's this place for veterans of all stripes to kind

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Speaker 2: of rest, recharge and refuel.

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Speaker 1: Cool. We're actually to let you hear Tom describe what

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Speaker 1: it's like as you drive up the road heading towards

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Speaker 1: a pipi a bat.

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Speaker 3: There is something that will stir in your soul from

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Speaker 3: the moment that you land at Missoula and they have

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Speaker 3: a big grizzly bear at the luggage carousel to getting

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Speaker 3: to our base. Every time you turn a river bend,

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Speaker 3: you think, well, this is the most beautiful thing I've

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Speaker 3: ever seen. And then you turn the next river bend

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Speaker 3: and you're like, oh no, this is actually the most

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Speaker 3: beautiful thing I seen. And so you do that for

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Speaker 3: an hour forty five minutes, and then you go vertical

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Speaker 3: up the side of the mountain and you drive up

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Speaker 3: to our base, which is a sixty acre ranch surrounded

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Speaker 3: by two hundred and fifty acres of Forest Service land.

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Speaker 1: So there's a reason that Tom has picked out this

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Speaker 1: idyllic piece of the Northwest for veterans to come together.

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Speaker 1: And you want to tell us about this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So the backstory of pibi Abate is also a

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Speaker 2: really kind of touching story, which is that unfortunately, one

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Speaker 2: of Tom's comrades was killed in action, this guy named

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Speaker 2: Matthew Abate, who was a Navy Cross recipient, and so

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Speaker 2: it's named in his honor, And we have a you know,

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Speaker 2: he had this idea for this place that's a little

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Speaker 2: bit different than a lot of the other kind of veterans'

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Speaker 2: charities that are out there. So I think we have

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Speaker 2: a clip of him talking about where this idea for

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Speaker 2: pibi Abate really started.

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Speaker 3: I lost more marines on the home front than I

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Speaker 3: had lost on the battlefield, and I just thought, you know,

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Speaker 3: you would do anything to keep your marines alive in combat.

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Speaker 3: What are you doing to keep them alive at home?

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Speaker 1: And just contexts there, he's talking about veterans that have

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Speaker 1: committed suicide and you know one of the things. So

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Speaker 1: I actually interviewed it, interviewed him for the for the podcast.

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Speaker 1: It was it was a kind of a crazy setup.

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Speaker 1: I showed up at the Quantico Marine Base on his

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Speaker 1: instructions at eight pm. We went out to his garage.

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Speaker 1: It was like thirty two degrees and we did a

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Speaker 1: three hour interview and he's like a tough dude. So

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to like, you know, a yeah, right, not shiver.

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Speaker 1: I'm like sitting next between the weightlifting area and the

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Speaker 1: gun vault, and finally he brings out a bottle of whiskey.

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Speaker 1: It was a it was a funny setup, but the

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Speaker 1: subject was quite serious. And what he said was combat

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Speaker 1: veterans when they come back to the States have a

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Speaker 1: suicide rate that is forty one percent higher than the

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Speaker 1: civilian population. And this was the really surprising thing he said.

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Speaker 1: He said, non combat veterans have a suicide rate of

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Speaker 1: sixty one percent higher than their civilian counterparts. And this

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Speaker 1: whole idea for this retreat up in the mountains in

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Speaker 1: Montana was born out of this feeling of necessity that

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Speaker 1: he out that there had to be something that he

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Speaker 1: was doing to try to try to change this.

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Speaker 2: That's right, And one of the things that he had

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Speaker 2: said to me early on was that there was this

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Speaker 2: thirty day period where he lost three different people to

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Speaker 2: suicide over the course of just thirty days. And this

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Speaker 2: was really the moment where he said to himself, I

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Speaker 2: got to do something about this.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of what he said also is that

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Speaker 1: a lot of the charities that are set up or

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Speaker 1: dealt for, like Navy seals or combat vets, and it

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Speaker 1: actually the doors aren't open for other veterans. That was

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Speaker 1: his perception. I'll let you him explain mis tape.

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Speaker 3: What I discovered is nearly every one of these organizations

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Speaker 3: had a barrier to entry, had a box to check,

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Speaker 3: had some kind of obstacle, and they would say, you're

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Speaker 3: not damaged enough, you're not broken enough, you're not disordered enough,

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Speaker 3: you're not special forces enough. You didn't leave a limb

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Speaker 3: on the battlefield enough. The majority of the veteran population

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Speaker 3: has not been in combat, The majority of the veteran

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Speaker 3: population has not lost their limb. The majority of the

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Speaker 3: veteran population was not special forces.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and he actually he had a hard time or

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Speaker 1: a challenge convincing some of the veterans that he was

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Speaker 1: approaching saying like I want to help you, and they

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Speaker 1: would kind of push back, Well, is this am I

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Speaker 1: almost worthy of it.

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Speaker 3: People will say like, who me, Well, I was just

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Speaker 3: an airman, I was just a sailor. It's like, yep,

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Speaker 3: actually airman, sailor soldier. This is actually your base. We

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Speaker 3: built this place for you. Oh well, how much is

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Speaker 3: it free of cost?

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Speaker 1: And this, of course is where Sarah shows up, And

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Speaker 1: this is the opening episode you remember of the podcast.

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Speaker 1: She shows up, she befriends Natalie and Dex, these two

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Speaker 1: other marines. But the place itself, I think it's like

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Speaker 1: what I found moving about. It was this idea that

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Speaker 1: when veterans came out of the service, that they were

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Speaker 1: no longer a part of anything. But Tom had this

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Speaker 1: idea that if you create this beautiful experience where you

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Speaker 1: have physical challenges, where you kind of rekindle the camaraderie

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Speaker 1: that we once felt, that you won't feel that isolation

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Speaker 1: that is the slippery slope into the desperate place that proceeds,

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Speaker 1: you know, thinking about taking your own life right.

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Speaker 2: And I think it also speaks to the value of

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Speaker 2: some of the things that Sarah stole right because the

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Speaker 2: loss amount, the dollar amount, doesn't encapsulate this. The loss

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Speaker 2: amount for Pibia Bat doesn't sound like that much. But

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Speaker 2: when you think about it, there was some marine or

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Speaker 2: some airman who couldn't experience this kind of thing that

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Speaker 2: so many people we interviewed liked X. Like Natalie said,

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Speaker 2: it really changed their life and kept them from a

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Speaker 2: pretty dark and really dangerous place to be honest.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I would just say for those in the

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Speaker 1: audience and for those listening at home, this is an

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Speaker 1: amazing place and it's worthy of our support. And these

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Speaker 1: scam stories are hard sometimes, but this is like a

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Speaker 1: light so absolutely so. One of the weird things about

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Speaker 1: unusual things about the story is that after Jess brought

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Speaker 1: it to me, we kind of figured out who we

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Speaker 1: were going to interview. Some folks we interviewed together, like

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Speaker 1: the member, the detective from the VA. We set up

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Speaker 1: all the mics, but there were times where we had

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Speaker 1: to break up. And one of them was Justin. I

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Speaker 1: was interviewing him one day in Ryllan and you were

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Speaker 1: interviewing Sam.

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Speaker 4: Was it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was this weird coincidence where two of these

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Speaker 2: super important stories Justin. You know, Sarah had stolen his

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Speaker 2: information and had also was taking his money, and Sam,

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Speaker 2: who was her girlfriend and physical therapist, both said to us,

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Speaker 2: we are only free at this date and this time,

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Speaker 2: and Jake and I said, well, actually, this is a

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Speaker 2: really good use of having two people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so we split and the So just a word

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Speaker 1: about Justin, because I'm the one that interviewed him. He

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Speaker 1: was the one who was basically had terminal cancer and

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Speaker 1: had been giving money out of pocket to help support

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Speaker 1: Sarah out of the belief that she too was terminally

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Speaker 1: sick with cancer. And she had taken his medical records

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Speaker 1: unbeknownst to him, which is just a double whammy. And

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Speaker 1: so when Justin and I were first talking about reporting

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Speaker 1: the story, we felt like we really had to reach

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Speaker 1: out to Justin and at least have his blessing that

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Speaker 1: he was all right with doing it and maybe he'd

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Speaker 1: be willing to talk to us. And it took a

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Speaker 1: while because I think the hard thing, and Jess, you

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Speaker 1: can talk about this with scam stories is that people

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Speaker 1: are reluctant to talk because of the shame that they

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Speaker 1: feel being scammed. And this, yeah, this came out time

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Speaker 1: and time again.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we really did see it a lot of times

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Speaker 2: where people said, well, listeners are going to think I'm stupid,

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Speaker 2: They're going to judge me, and I've always felt like

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Speaker 2: I've interviewed a lot of people on both sides of

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Speaker 2: the sort of scam equation, and the people that I've

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Speaker 2: spoken to who have been scammed are never stupid, they're

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Speaker 2: never greedy. They're often people who are like the people

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Speaker 2: that we spoke to for this series, Salt of the Earth,

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Speaker 2: folks who really want help, and that unfortunately puts them

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Speaker 2: in a vulnerable place. But it's not to be shamed,

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Speaker 2: and I haven't heard that reaction from anyone who's listened

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Speaker 2: to the series.

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Speaker 1: But it's tricky, right because you can't tell people participate

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Speaker 1: and you're going to look good or there won't be

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Speaker 1: moments where you feel, I don't know, we're not dredging

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Speaker 1: stuff up. Have It's funny you have to make your

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Speaker 1: pick which to hope they participate, but in the end

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Speaker 1: they have to make the decision because they have to

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Speaker 1: own it, and you don't want to feel responsible for

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Speaker 1: coercing them into talking, so you play this' That's why

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Speaker 1: I respected, honestly that just spent nine months or whatever

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Speaker 1: it was talking to Sarah before we interviewed her, because

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Speaker 1: by the time that way that interview occurred, there had

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Speaker 1: been a long runway of communication and consent and anyway.

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Speaker 1: So with Justin, he agreed to talk. He said a

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Speaker 1: lot of things, but one of the things that we

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Speaker 1: didn't get a chance to get into in the podcast

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Speaker 1: was his what his experience of being a service member,

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Speaker 1: how it impacted his wife's life. And it's a little

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Speaker 1: bit of a tangent, but it's it's powerful and I

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Speaker 1: want to share.

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Speaker 3: It with you.

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Speaker 1: So maybe we can just play that first clip from Justin.

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Speaker 5: They always say that it's not just a service member

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Speaker 5: that serves, it's the family, and it's really it's really true.

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Speaker 5: I don't know my wife will appreciate me saying this.

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Speaker 5: My wife got pretty sick. She had a bad reaction

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Speaker 5: to some medication, was very ill, and our neighbors, our

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Speaker 5: squadron mates, came together and totally helped out, took care

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Speaker 5: of the kids while she was in the hospital, while

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Speaker 5: she was in bed at home. And I can't say

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Speaker 5: how much I appreciated that.

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Speaker 1: You know, just for context here, when his wife is

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Speaker 1: sick like this, Justin is out of the picture because

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Speaker 1: he's serving in Iraq. He's like half a world away

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Speaker 1: and user going to hear In a second. He doesn't

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Speaker 1: fully understand what's going on with her, but during this time,

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Speaker 1: it's Christmas time, and I'll let him tell you what

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Speaker 1: happens next.

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Speaker 5: For Christmas, she put together she was a teacher at

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Speaker 5: the time. She and her students put together these little

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Speaker 5: care packages for every single one of my sailors with

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Speaker 5: their name on it, and sent them sent them to us.

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Speaker 5: She did all this while being sick, and she didn't

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Speaker 5: She didn't tell me until she was after the fact

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Speaker 5: that she said, look, I like I almost died, but

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Speaker 5: she didn't want me to worry while I was deployed,

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Speaker 5: so she just kind of sat on it.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, The thing about this that that moves me is

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Speaker 1: you think about what Justin did for Sarah. You think

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Speaker 1: about the way that he didn't hesitate to reach into

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Speaker 1: his own pocket and pay her medical expenses. And that choice,

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Speaker 1: which in and of itself was generous, didn't exist in

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Speaker 1: a moment by itself. It was part of a greater

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Speaker 1: connectivity to a spirit of generosity that here his wife

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Speaker 1: is sick, like might even die, and got all the

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Speaker 1: stuff out for all the troops under him. And I

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Speaker 1: just think it was one of the more it was

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Speaker 1: one of the more beautiful parts of the story that

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Speaker 1: it's not a story about a scam entirely. It's also

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Speaker 1: a story about like a deep felt belief in the

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Speaker 1: generosity of the human spirit and the way that there's

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Speaker 1: a through line of when people do things for us,

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Speaker 1: that we repay them absolutely.

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Speaker 2: And we were kind of struck by that at so

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Speaker 2: many different moments. And I think Justin is a really

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Speaker 2: potent example. You can hear the emotion in his voice,

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Speaker 2: and it's you know, he's sacrificing for his family, for

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Speaker 2: his country, and his family is trying to kind of

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Speaker 2: make that same sacrifice for him. It's it's just it's

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Speaker 2: really touching.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back. Let's talk about you did this

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Speaker 1: interview and Michelle really spoke so beautifully about the kind

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Speaker 1: of dynamics of betrayal and forgiveness and all that give

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Speaker 1: us some context in who Michelle was. Again.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so Michelle is a fitness instructor. She's one of

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Speaker 2: the kind of Rhode Island set of people that we

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Speaker 2: hear from in this story. And she actually met Sarah

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Speaker 2: at the gym and they became really close friends. They

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Speaker 2: ended up you know, going out to lunch almost every week,

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Speaker 2: and as she says, both kind of when she testifies

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Speaker 2: in court and in the series, she was Sarah's primary

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Speaker 2: shoe tire, right.

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Speaker 1: Because a sensibly Sarah couldn't tire her own shoes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's right.

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Speaker 2: So that's Michelle. And not only did she kind of

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Speaker 2: sacrifice a lot for Sarah in terms of her time,

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Speaker 2: in terms of her care, but also she gave her

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Speaker 2: her money. I think it was like twenty five hundred

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Speaker 2: dollars thinking that it was for surgery. So Michelle, safe

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Speaker 2: to say, felt this very kind of deep and intimate betrayal.

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Speaker 2: And she has some kind of interesting reflections on what

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Speaker 2: she takes away from that.

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Speaker 6: Well, there was no violence. People will be like, well,

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Speaker 6: I wasn't a violent crime, but it was a crime

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Speaker 6: of I don't even know what you call it, opportunity,

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Speaker 6: but it was that deception of trust. When you break

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Speaker 6: down that circle of trust, society can't function. You need

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Speaker 6: to be to trust what people are saying for the

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Speaker 6: most part in your day to day life to make

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Speaker 6: those social connections and to have that or society as

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Speaker 6: a whole will fail.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, talk about that last bit, because I know you

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Speaker 1: have thoughts on that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts because I spend

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Speaker 2: I've spent so much of the past few years thinking

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Speaker 2: about scams about cons and I often come back to

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Speaker 2: the idea that con artists comes from the term confidence.

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Speaker 2: It's about a confidence trick. Do you trust me to do? This?

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Speaker 2: Basically is how it all started. Do you trust me

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Speaker 2: to hold onto your watch for you? And what she

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Speaker 2: gets at is so true is that trust is the

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Speaker 2: essence of society in ways big and small. I think

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Speaker 2: people miss or really underestimate how often they're forced to

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Speaker 2: trust in day to day life, Like something as simple

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Speaker 2: as every aspect of commerce. You buy something online, you

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Speaker 2: pay for it before it comes, and you trust that

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Speaker 2: it's going to get to you, and you pay for

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Speaker 2: a cup of coffee. It's not a standoff in which

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Speaker 2: they're handing you the coffee at the instant that you

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Speaker 2: give your money. And so, you know, I think there's

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Speaker 2: this idea that we don't really need to trust each other,

390
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Speaker 2: or that's some sort of naivete but in fact, if

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Speaker 2: we don't function that way, literally all of our society

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Speaker 2: will collapse.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, you look outside, maybe in other

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Speaker 1: parts of the world, you don't like I can think

395
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Speaker 1: of my in laws who would say growing up in

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Speaker 1: communist poll and there is minimal trust in any aspect

397
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Speaker 1: of society. But like in America, a lot of times

398
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Speaker 1: we glide through life on this kind of current of

399
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Speaker 1: trust that things are going to be they what they

400
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Speaker 1: should be. So that's one part of this. But the

401
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Speaker 1: other part of this is that what do you do

402
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Speaker 1: when someone who's not just the person that's selling you

403
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Speaker 1: something online. You expect the good the goods are going

404
00:20:58,716 --> 00:21:01,596
Speaker 1: to arrive, but your friend, the person who are like

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Speaker 1: kneeling down and tying their shoelaces and going on a

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Speaker 1: walk in the woods with them and telling them about

407
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Speaker 1: your kids and taking to the ballet and someone you

408
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Speaker 1: know intimately where all of that is not what it

409
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Speaker 1: seems and like how does that derail and your your

410
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Speaker 1: kind of your sense of yourself and all that. And

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Speaker 1: there's what we'll play some take from Michelle in it.

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Speaker 6: When you're hurt, everybody handles that hurt differently, So some

413
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Speaker 6: people dig in and try to help. I cut off

414
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Speaker 6: at the knees. I need no new friends. I actually

415
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Speaker 6: texted all my friends. I'm like, you are who you

416
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Speaker 6: say you are right.

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Speaker 7: I love that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she's like joking, but you kind of maybe she's

419
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Speaker 1: not joking.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I'm also sort of a cut him off at the

422
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Speaker 2: knees type, so I relate to Michelle.

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Speaker 1: Oh better not cross you, Jess, watch out Jake. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But the thing that I find so interesting and also

425
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Speaker 2: so sad in what she's really the heart of what

426
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Speaker 2: she's saying is that I think the risk with scams

427
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Speaker 2: is not just that you mistrust a person or that

428
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Speaker 2: you lose faith in an institution, but you fundamentally come

429
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Speaker 2: to fear your sense of reality. I think in these

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Speaker 2: most profound scams, or what she's really saying is is

431
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Speaker 2: what I see and experienced in the world. True, are

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Speaker 2: my other friends pretending to be someone entirely else?

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Speaker 1: It's so scary, right, And actually it's do I trust myself? Right?

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Speaker 1: Because on some level we think that we're good judges

435
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Speaker 1: of character, So we think I know who a friend is,

436
00:22:26,076 --> 00:22:28,556
Speaker 1: I know a friend isn't. And then what happens when

437
00:22:28,596 --> 00:22:31,396
Speaker 1: your dil detector that you rely on in your head

438
00:22:31,716 --> 00:22:35,156
Speaker 1: is way off, fundamentally off, Like how do you you know?

439
00:22:35,196 --> 00:22:37,596
Speaker 1: That's what you have her saying, like, you know are

440
00:22:37,636 --> 00:22:41,196
Speaker 1: you my friend? Are you my friend? And then if

441
00:22:41,236 --> 00:22:44,436
Speaker 1: you feel that like, wow, my wiring was faulty on that,

442
00:22:45,236 --> 00:22:46,876
Speaker 1: how do you come to trust yourself and your own

443
00:22:46,916 --> 00:22:47,796
Speaker 1: judgment Again.

444
00:22:47,676 --> 00:22:50,036
Speaker 2: It's like what else is wrong? What else is real?

445
00:22:50,476 --> 00:22:50,676
Speaker 4: Right?

446
00:22:51,156 --> 00:22:53,636
Speaker 1: Okay? So I think there's some pieces of tape that

447
00:22:53,636 --> 00:22:56,676
Speaker 1: when you hear you know, it's like tape that feels

448
00:22:56,676 --> 00:22:59,836
Speaker 1: it somehow, it speaks to a culmination of the ideas

449
00:22:59,836 --> 00:23:01,556
Speaker 1: that you've discussed, and you kind of put that in

450
00:23:01,596 --> 00:23:04,996
Speaker 1: a bucket and you sit on that tape and this

451
00:23:05,356 --> 00:23:10,196
Speaker 1: bit from Decks falls into that. But now that I

452
00:23:10,196 --> 00:23:12,996
Speaker 1: had that big preamble, tell us who Duck is, remind

453
00:23:13,076 --> 00:23:14,276
Speaker 1: us who she is in this story.

454
00:23:14,556 --> 00:23:16,516
Speaker 2: And it's funny too that we immediately were like, this

455
00:23:16,556 --> 00:23:18,196
Speaker 2: is going to be the end of the show because

456
00:23:18,236 --> 00:23:20,556
Speaker 2: she was actually the first interview that we did for

457
00:23:20,636 --> 00:23:23,556
Speaker 2: the series. Amy, our producer, and I went up to

458
00:23:23,916 --> 00:23:28,316
Speaker 2: upstate New York to Dex's home and Dex herself was

459
00:23:28,476 --> 00:23:31,716
Speaker 2: a marine and she was part of the military police

460
00:23:32,476 --> 00:23:34,676
Speaker 2: also young, you know, we're all about the same age

461
00:23:34,716 --> 00:23:38,876
Speaker 2: and same age as Sarah, and she had this really

462
00:23:38,916 --> 00:23:42,636
Speaker 2: really ancient dog named Luigi. So we go into her

463
00:23:42,676 --> 00:23:45,276
Speaker 2: house it was all she's obsessed with Christmas, and so

464
00:23:45,396 --> 00:23:48,596
Speaker 2: it was around Thanksgiving time, but she already had the

465
00:23:48,756 --> 00:23:53,996
Speaker 2: full holiday decor. And she also let us we you know,

466
00:23:54,036 --> 00:23:56,276
Speaker 2: we had just met her. We were like, Hi, I'm Jess, Hi,

467
00:23:56,316 --> 00:23:58,756
Speaker 2: I'm Amy. Can we unplug your fridge? Can we like

468
00:23:58,796 --> 00:24:01,316
Speaker 2: move your whole apartment around? Can we put your dog

469
00:24:01,356 --> 00:24:01,916
Speaker 2: on my lap?

470
00:24:02,196 --> 00:24:05,636
Speaker 1: And can we talk about the most painful moment? Yeah?

471
00:24:04,916 --> 00:24:05,036
Speaker 8: Right?

472
00:24:05,676 --> 00:24:09,036
Speaker 2: And she just was game from the start and really

473
00:24:09,596 --> 00:24:12,196
Speaker 2: kind of led us into her world and into her life.

474
00:24:12,276 --> 00:24:14,636
Speaker 2: And she is one of the people who met Sarah

475
00:24:14,756 --> 00:24:17,236
Speaker 2: out in Montana at Pidiabaate.

476
00:24:17,556 --> 00:24:21,316
Speaker 1: If you recall, Dex is the one who said an

477
00:24:21,356 --> 00:24:24,796
Speaker 1: at Arlington National Cemetery and she had remembered that Sarah's

478
00:24:25,596 --> 00:24:28,676
Speaker 1: brother supposedly been buried there, and she called up Sarah

479
00:24:28,676 --> 00:24:32,036
Speaker 1: and she went to a plot and laid wreath a

480
00:24:32,036 --> 00:24:34,556
Speaker 1: wreath at this plot, which turned out to be a

481
00:24:34,636 --> 00:24:38,276
Speaker 1: kind of random plot. Right, So there's a lot to this.

482
00:24:38,476 --> 00:24:42,996
Speaker 1: But you asked, Dex, I think in this moment, like

483
00:24:43,156 --> 00:24:47,676
Speaker 1: how do you how do you work through a betrayal

484
00:24:47,756 --> 00:24:51,516
Speaker 1: of this magnitude? And yeah, okay, here's what she says.

485
00:24:52,276 --> 00:24:55,396
Speaker 4: I think we struggle with forgiveness because you have to

486
00:24:55,436 --> 00:24:59,356
Speaker 4: eat the cost. There's no closure before you get to

487
00:24:59,396 --> 00:25:03,196
Speaker 4: forgive somebody. If something requires you to forgive another person,

488
00:25:03,436 --> 00:25:07,356
Speaker 4: you have to You have to fully eat the cost

489
00:25:07,876 --> 00:25:10,676
Speaker 4: whatever wrong they did you. You have to expect no repayment.

490
00:25:11,236 --> 00:25:15,116
Speaker 4: You can't expect it to be made whole. You have

491
00:25:15,196 --> 00:25:18,036
Speaker 4: to be okay with it not being whole. People wrong

492
00:25:18,156 --> 00:25:20,196
Speaker 4: you and you you know, if you're really going to

493
00:25:20,236 --> 00:25:21,836
Speaker 4: forgive somebody, do you have to be okay with fixing

494
00:25:21,836 --> 00:25:22,356
Speaker 4: it yourself.

495
00:25:23,076 --> 00:25:24,636
Speaker 1: So I've thought about that a lot. You have to

496
00:25:24,636 --> 00:25:26,676
Speaker 1: eat the cost, and I'm still I don't feel like

497
00:25:26,836 --> 00:25:29,596
Speaker 1: entirely certain. I understand all the depths of what it means.

498
00:25:29,636 --> 00:25:31,196
Speaker 1: But what do you take that to me? When she

499
00:25:31,236 --> 00:25:32,396
Speaker 1: says you have to eat the cost?

500
00:25:33,396 --> 00:25:35,396
Speaker 2: It kind of hits me like a gut punch every

501
00:25:35,396 --> 00:25:37,356
Speaker 2: time I hear it, and I've heard it a lot

502
00:25:37,356 --> 00:25:40,876
Speaker 2: of times. And I'm someone who has a really hard

503
00:25:40,956 --> 00:25:44,836
Speaker 2: time with forgiveness, like I'm a grudge holder. I get

504
00:25:44,836 --> 00:25:47,236
Speaker 2: my irish up, so to speak. And so when she

505
00:25:47,316 --> 00:25:49,396
Speaker 2: first said it to me, I think I did say

506
00:25:49,436 --> 00:25:52,316
Speaker 2: to her, like, what do you mean by that? And

507
00:25:53,196 --> 00:25:56,076
Speaker 2: she's what she said was something to the effect of,

508
00:25:56,516 --> 00:25:59,116
Speaker 2: like the money that you gave this person or the

509
00:25:59,236 --> 00:26:03,196
Speaker 2: time or the love, you're not getting that back. And

510
00:26:03,236 --> 00:26:05,476
Speaker 2: even if they wanted to give it back to you,

511
00:26:05,516 --> 00:26:08,996
Speaker 2: they can't because it's gone. And so the way that

512
00:26:08,996 --> 00:26:13,556
Speaker 2: I interpret that is forgiveness means not waiting around for

513
00:26:13,636 --> 00:26:15,836
Speaker 2: someone to say, I'm so sorry that I did that

514
00:26:15,876 --> 00:26:16,076
Speaker 2: to you.

515
00:26:16,116 --> 00:26:16,756
Speaker 8: That was wrong.

516
00:26:17,236 --> 00:26:20,156
Speaker 2: It's saying, you know what, that was really messed up,

517
00:26:20,236 --> 00:26:24,276
Speaker 2: and I'm choosing to make whatever I'm going to make

518
00:26:24,276 --> 00:26:26,516
Speaker 2: of it. Maybe I learn a lesson from it, maybe

519
00:26:26,556 --> 00:26:28,676
Speaker 2: I don't, but I'm not going to sit around and

520
00:26:28,716 --> 00:26:30,196
Speaker 2: wait for someone else to make it right.

521
00:26:30,756 --> 00:26:33,916
Speaker 1: And there's like there's grief in there, and there's loss

522
00:26:33,956 --> 00:26:37,156
Speaker 1: in there right, Like she lost things, she lost time

523
00:26:37,196 --> 00:26:39,796
Speaker 1: that she could have put into other friendships, she lost

524
00:26:39,876 --> 00:26:42,316
Speaker 1: heart that she could have given to people and her family,

525
00:26:42,756 --> 00:26:45,996
Speaker 1: and I think that, like it's almost like she's saying,

526
00:26:46,196 --> 00:26:49,676
Speaker 1: you have to recognize that, like that is gone, and

527
00:26:49,716 --> 00:26:51,796
Speaker 1: you have to be at peace with that. And if

528
00:26:51,796 --> 00:26:54,916
Speaker 1: you're not a piece with that, you know, there's nothing else.

529
00:26:54,996 --> 00:26:59,876
Speaker 1: And it's funny because I feel like, on its face,

530
00:26:59,996 --> 00:27:03,036
Speaker 1: this story is so outlandish, it's so crazy, it's like,

531
00:27:03,116 --> 00:27:05,396
Speaker 1: who does this ever happen to? But there are moments

532
00:27:05,396 --> 00:27:07,516
Speaker 1: when we're talking, when you were talking to Dex or Justin,

533
00:27:07,516 --> 00:27:09,636
Speaker 1: which we're going to play next, do you feel like,

534
00:27:10,436 --> 00:27:12,876
Speaker 1: by god, I've been in some version of that moment,

535
00:27:12,996 --> 00:27:16,556
Speaker 1: a lesser version, a less dramatic version. But who in

536
00:27:16,596 --> 00:27:20,476
Speaker 1: this room has not felt betrayal by a friend or

537
00:27:20,516 --> 00:27:24,636
Speaker 1: a loved one where there's that moment of like, how

538
00:27:24,636 --> 00:27:26,236
Speaker 1: am I going to get through this? And I felt

539
00:27:26,236 --> 00:27:29,476
Speaker 1: like there's aspects of this where I would think about

540
00:27:29,476 --> 00:27:32,676
Speaker 1: Decks and think about Justin and think like it's a

541
00:27:32,716 --> 00:27:36,476
Speaker 1: pretty massive betrayal that they somehow work through. I should

542
00:27:37,116 --> 00:27:40,796
Speaker 1: find a way to try to channel some small bit

543
00:27:40,876 --> 00:27:43,476
Speaker 1: of that, because your hill is much smaller than theirs.

544
00:27:43,956 --> 00:27:47,276
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think that's I think that's what if

545
00:27:47,316 --> 00:27:49,556
Speaker 2: I might, if I may say, what kind of drew

546
00:27:49,596 --> 00:27:52,196
Speaker 2: both of us to this story was that there's so

547
00:27:52,316 --> 00:27:54,116
Speaker 2: much hard in it and there's so much kind of

548
00:27:54,116 --> 00:27:58,756
Speaker 2: pathos in it. And I think, you know, true crime

549
00:27:58,796 --> 00:28:05,516
Speaker 2: when it's done poorly, is so sordid and just not worthwhile.

550
00:28:05,716 --> 00:28:10,076
Speaker 2: But there's an aspect often I think in i'me stories

551
00:28:10,116 --> 00:28:13,436
Speaker 2: that just brings out the best and worst of humanity,

552
00:28:13,996 --> 00:28:17,836
Speaker 2: and you see just such a range of what human

553
00:28:17,916 --> 00:28:21,676
Speaker 2: animals are capable of and for the better with a

554
00:28:21,716 --> 00:28:23,796
Speaker 2: lot of these veterans. And that's I think why I

555
00:28:23,836 --> 00:28:25,716
Speaker 2: love that quote and why I love talking to people

556
00:28:25,756 --> 00:28:27,036
Speaker 2: like Dex and like Justin.

557
00:28:27,476 --> 00:28:30,356
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's some let's play this last clip from Justin.

558
00:28:31,996 --> 00:28:34,636
Speaker 1: It was a similar moment to the moment that that

559
00:28:34,836 --> 00:28:37,516
Speaker 1: just had with Decks where I was asking him like,

560
00:28:37,596 --> 00:28:39,636
Speaker 1: how do you emerge from this? This is you You

561
00:28:39,676 --> 00:28:42,356
Speaker 1: had your your medical records stolen. You gave him out

562
00:28:42,396 --> 00:28:45,996
Speaker 1: of pocket for this, Like where do you how do

563
00:28:46,076 --> 00:28:48,436
Speaker 1: you make your way back to trying to be some

564
00:28:48,556 --> 00:28:49,876
Speaker 1: version of who you used to be?

565
00:28:51,396 --> 00:28:54,476
Speaker 5: I did a lot of introspection and said, well, what

566
00:28:54,676 --> 00:28:57,756
Speaker 5: gives me energy? And that's what gives me energy is

567
00:28:57,796 --> 00:29:02,156
Speaker 5: to help help people, especially fellow veterans, and so you know,

568
00:29:02,236 --> 00:29:04,876
Speaker 5: if I lose that, now what do I have?

569
00:29:05,996 --> 00:29:08,596
Speaker 1: It's interesting because it's like his use of the word

570
00:29:09,156 --> 00:29:10,796
Speaker 1: using it, and it makes me think of the loss,

571
00:29:10,836 --> 00:29:13,916
Speaker 1: like what is Dex? She has to eat the cost? Right,

572
00:29:14,156 --> 00:29:16,876
Speaker 1: but then there's a cost at not doing that, Like

573
00:29:16,916 --> 00:29:20,596
Speaker 1: if she doesn't work through that, the cost is you're

574
00:29:20,636 --> 00:29:24,636
Speaker 1: carrying this frickin thing around with you, and like, for Justin,

575
00:29:24,796 --> 00:29:27,636
Speaker 1: it's about working his way back to that moment where

576
00:29:27,636 --> 00:29:30,316
Speaker 1: he can give something himself again, because if he gives

577
00:29:30,356 --> 00:29:33,436
Speaker 1: that up, then you know, then then as he says,

578
00:29:33,476 --> 00:29:35,796
Speaker 1: like so beautifully, then who is he or what is he? Yeah?

579
00:29:35,836 --> 00:29:38,916
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think that that's what everyone we interviewed

580
00:29:38,956 --> 00:29:42,276
Speaker 2: and was working through. And people who are victims of

581
00:29:42,316 --> 00:29:45,516
Speaker 2: scams in general have to decide what, if anything, am

582
00:29:45,596 --> 00:29:48,996
Speaker 2: I going to take forward from this experience into my

583
00:29:49,036 --> 00:29:54,236
Speaker 2: other relationships with friends, strangers, et cetera, Because I think,

584
00:29:54,396 --> 00:29:58,676
Speaker 2: you know, you don't want to give people undue suspicion. Sometimes, I,

585
00:29:59,036 --> 00:30:01,676
Speaker 2: especially while we were reporting this story, I would meet

586
00:30:01,716 --> 00:30:05,636
Speaker 2: strangers in non journalistic context and be thinking like, hmm,

587
00:30:06,156 --> 00:30:07,876
Speaker 2: did they really go to be you like they told

588
00:30:07,876 --> 00:30:09,956
Speaker 2: me they did? And I was like, this person doesn't

589
00:30:09,996 --> 00:30:12,196
Speaker 2: deserve that, Like there's no reason that they would be

590
00:30:12,276 --> 00:30:15,276
Speaker 2: lying to me. And I'm not experiencing the level of

591
00:30:15,356 --> 00:30:18,436
Speaker 2: betrayal that these people experienced, So I think they all,

592
00:30:18,556 --> 00:30:21,036
Speaker 2: which I also found interesting, we're thinking of it really

593
00:30:21,076 --> 00:30:24,076
Speaker 2: consciously of how do I want to show up in

594
00:30:24,116 --> 00:30:24,516
Speaker 2: the world?

595
00:30:24,836 --> 00:30:28,356
Speaker 1: Right right? Okay, Well, we can get more into that

596
00:30:28,356 --> 00:30:30,756
Speaker 1: with questions, but we want to share one final clip

597
00:30:30,996 --> 00:30:34,996
Speaker 1: which is just my favorite clip from the cutting room floor.

598
00:30:35,596 --> 00:30:38,476
Speaker 1: And as part of this, we're going to ask our

599
00:30:38,556 --> 00:30:42,316
Speaker 1: amazing producer Amy Gains McQuaid to come up on stage.

600
00:30:42,516 --> 00:30:44,876
Speaker 2: Let's give around applause for Amy. She did an incredible job.

601
00:30:48,276 --> 00:30:52,116
Speaker 7: Okay, So I'm a few minutes away from Mark and

602
00:30:52,236 --> 00:30:56,876
Speaker 7: Kate's house, and now that I'm here, this is a

603
00:30:56,876 --> 00:31:02,956
Speaker 7: part of Vermont that is referred to as the Northeast Kingdom.

604
00:31:03,836 --> 00:31:06,796
Speaker 7: It's pretty remote.

605
00:31:07,476 --> 00:31:19,036
Speaker 9: Whoa, oh, Okay, that's Amy's card the live car crash

606
00:31:19,076 --> 00:31:19,636
Speaker 9: you just heard.

607
00:31:19,876 --> 00:31:23,476
Speaker 1: That's Amy's car going off the road into the snow

608
00:31:24,036 --> 00:31:26,156
Speaker 1: in on a Vermont road. So, and this is really

609
00:31:26,196 --> 00:31:29,236
Speaker 1: funny for anyone the old NPR reporters, Like there's this

610
00:31:29,276 --> 00:31:31,196
Speaker 1: thing we always say, like, and here we are in

611
00:31:31,236 --> 00:31:34,276
Speaker 1: the north. She's doing exactly what the good audio.

612
00:31:34,076 --> 00:31:35,396
Speaker 2: Journalis history of this region.

613
00:31:36,116 --> 00:31:37,836
Speaker 1: There's someone reasons I love this clip, but one of

614
00:31:37,876 --> 00:31:40,236
Speaker 1: them Amy is like, it is such the metaphor for

615
00:31:40,316 --> 00:31:42,036
Speaker 1: you in the crisis, because if it had been in

616
00:31:42,076 --> 00:31:43,636
Speaker 1: my car going off the road, I would have been

617
00:31:43,676 --> 00:31:46,276
Speaker 1: dropping the F bomb. As my sons who are in

618
00:31:46,276 --> 00:31:48,916
Speaker 1: the front row can can attest to and you're like,

619
00:31:48,996 --> 00:31:53,036
Speaker 1: oh dear, and you are just always so calm under pressure.

620
00:31:53,716 --> 00:31:55,836
Speaker 1: You you can see the snow caked in your fender,

621
00:31:55,876 --> 00:32:00,756
Speaker 1: but with all seriousness, we are like so fortunate. Amy

622
00:32:00,876 --> 00:32:04,956
Speaker 1: is that rare person who just brings such a level

623
00:32:04,956 --> 00:32:07,636
Speaker 1: of passion and integrity to this show. And it would

624
00:32:07,636 --> 00:32:11,076
Speaker 1: not exist and I would not do it if you

625
00:32:11,156 --> 00:32:13,116
Speaker 1: weren't doing it with us. So just huge, thank you,

626
00:32:13,156 --> 00:32:13,636
Speaker 1: thank you, Jake.

627
00:32:17,236 --> 00:32:21,476
Speaker 2: And just to give a little context for the clip,

628
00:32:22,076 --> 00:32:25,156
Speaker 2: because I live in Paris, and so I came back

629
00:32:25,196 --> 00:32:27,316
Speaker 2: and reported a lot of this on the ground with Jake.

630
00:32:27,396 --> 00:32:29,516
Speaker 2: But then there were a lot of things that we

631
00:32:29,716 --> 00:32:36,756
Speaker 2: did remotely, and so Amy volunteered to drive from Boston

632
00:32:36,836 --> 00:32:39,476
Speaker 2: all the way up to a very northernmost part of

633
00:32:39,556 --> 00:32:42,636
Speaker 2: Vermont in the winter so that I could zoom in

634
00:32:42,756 --> 00:32:46,356
Speaker 2: to interview Mark and Kate Feudie, who were also Jim

635
00:32:46,396 --> 00:32:49,796
Speaker 2: friends of Sarah's. And this is how I sent almost

636
00:32:49,836 --> 00:32:51,676
Speaker 2: sent Amy to an icy death.

637
00:32:52,036 --> 00:32:54,476
Speaker 8: No, it was okay, I'm here right. The show came out.

638
00:32:54,996 --> 00:32:56,276
Speaker 8: Mark and Kate's interview was great.

639
00:32:56,316 --> 00:32:56,756
Speaker 2: It was great.

640
00:32:56,796 --> 00:32:58,116
Speaker 10: If it had been a bad interview, I would have

641
00:32:58,156 --> 00:33:01,836
Speaker 10: been really absolutely, but no, I mean, thank you guys

642
00:33:01,876 --> 00:33:03,556
Speaker 10: so much for having me up for this part of

643
00:33:03,596 --> 00:33:05,916
Speaker 10: the show. And uh, you know, just to kind of

644
00:33:05,956 --> 00:33:07,716
Speaker 10: get right into questions, we have a bunch of them.

645
00:33:07,756 --> 00:33:12,076
Speaker 10: But related to Mark and Kate and Justin and Sam

646
00:33:12,196 --> 00:33:15,396
Speaker 10: and Michelle, you know, why do you think all of

647
00:33:15,436 --> 00:33:17,876
Speaker 10: these people talk to you? Why do you think that

648
00:33:17,916 --> 00:33:21,156
Speaker 10: they were comfortable inviting you into their homes in some

649
00:33:21,196 --> 00:33:23,836
Speaker 10: cases to talk about really painful things that happened to them.

650
00:33:23,876 --> 00:33:26,756
Speaker 10: I'm curious, Jess, why you think people said yes.

651
00:33:27,796 --> 00:33:30,516
Speaker 2: I think you know, it really varied person to person,

652
00:33:30,596 --> 00:33:33,356
Speaker 2: but the overarching thing that I saw time and time

653
00:33:33,396 --> 00:33:35,756
Speaker 2: again was that these are the kind of people who

654
00:33:35,756 --> 00:33:40,516
Speaker 2: are helpers, and they really opened their arms and their

655
00:33:40,556 --> 00:33:43,596
Speaker 2: homes to Sarah for many years, and I felt like

656
00:33:43,636 --> 00:33:46,836
Speaker 2: we were receiving kind of an extension of that sort

657
00:33:46,876 --> 00:33:50,356
Speaker 2: of generosity of spirit, where people were game to talk

658
00:33:50,396 --> 00:33:54,276
Speaker 2: about what was a really really difficult experience and also

659
00:33:54,356 --> 00:33:57,156
Speaker 2: led us in to their houses, which is not always

660
00:33:57,556 --> 00:34:00,636
Speaker 2: easy to have a journalist in your space. And then

661
00:34:00,676 --> 00:34:03,356
Speaker 2: the other aspect was that there were a couple people

662
00:34:03,396 --> 00:34:08,876
Speaker 2: who the public had assumed were complicit in some way,

663
00:34:09,116 --> 00:34:13,716
Speaker 2: and we're kind of unfortunately smeared alongside Sarah. I'm thinking

664
00:34:13,756 --> 00:34:17,356
Speaker 2: of her ex girlfriend and her ex wife, who from

665
00:34:17,436 --> 00:34:19,916
Speaker 2: what we could tell, really had no idea what was

666
00:34:19,996 --> 00:34:23,596
Speaker 2: going on, but the media and the public treated them

667
00:34:23,916 --> 00:34:25,876
Speaker 2: as if of course they knew, and of course they

668
00:34:25,876 --> 00:34:28,476
Speaker 2: were also profiting, and so I think that must have

669
00:34:28,516 --> 00:34:31,476
Speaker 2: been really, really hard, especially living in these small towns,

670
00:34:31,516 --> 00:34:34,876
Speaker 2: and I think they wanted to clear their names in

671
00:34:34,916 --> 00:34:35,516
Speaker 2: a certain way.

672
00:34:35,716 --> 00:34:38,116
Speaker 1: Yeah, what about you, Jake, Yeah, I mean I think

673
00:34:38,156 --> 00:34:40,956
Speaker 1: that I agree with everything that just said. I think

674
00:34:40,996 --> 00:34:43,316
Speaker 1: you can hear in those moments, like when Justin is

675
00:34:43,356 --> 00:34:46,316
Speaker 1: talking the kind of tremor in his voice, and you

676
00:34:46,396 --> 00:34:48,996
Speaker 1: feel like this is a guy who's still working through this,

677
00:34:49,636 --> 00:34:52,596
Speaker 1: who's still trying to figure out what this all means.

678
00:34:52,596 --> 00:34:56,516
Speaker 1: And I think that, like that's hopefully what we're trying

679
00:34:56,516 --> 00:34:58,316
Speaker 1: to do, and telling a story is to is to

680
00:34:58,356 --> 00:35:00,436
Speaker 1: pull some meaning out of it that is that goes

681
00:35:00,476 --> 00:35:02,236
Speaker 1: a tad deeper than the five hundred words than they

682
00:35:02,276 --> 00:35:04,036
Speaker 1: got in the post. I think that's the hope that

683
00:35:04,156 --> 00:35:06,556
Speaker 1: they that they have, and then it's on us to

684
00:35:06,596 --> 00:35:08,116
Speaker 1: try to try to honor that.

685
00:35:08,516 --> 00:35:10,436
Speaker 2: And it was h too, to your point, Like I

686
00:35:10,476 --> 00:35:15,676
Speaker 2: think she was sentenced in twenty twenty three. I started

687
00:35:15,756 --> 00:35:18,836
Speaker 2: reporting this in twenty twenty four, I want to say, yeah,

688
00:35:18,876 --> 00:35:20,556
Speaker 2: maybe less less than a year later.

689
00:35:21,436 --> 00:35:23,636
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that has its challenge and the one way

690
00:35:23,676 --> 00:35:25,996
Speaker 1: it makes it more powerful because it's all fresh in

691
00:35:26,036 --> 00:35:28,436
Speaker 1: their memory, but also often means people don't want to

692
00:35:28,476 --> 00:35:30,356
Speaker 1: talk Why would you want it? I mean I wouldn't

693
00:35:30,356 --> 00:35:31,756
Speaker 1: want to talk to me a lot of the time.

694
00:35:31,876 --> 00:35:33,716
Speaker 1: Oh yes, you know, like let me into my house

695
00:35:33,716 --> 00:35:35,436
Speaker 1: and my family and all these things that happened. And

696
00:35:35,516 --> 00:35:37,956
Speaker 1: I think that like just trying to remember that that

697
00:35:37,996 --> 00:35:40,916
Speaker 1: there was like some serious trust, you know, putting you

698
00:35:41,036 --> 00:35:41,756
Speaker 1: So yeah.

699
00:35:42,076 --> 00:35:45,316
Speaker 10: Yeah, So I just want to jump into the question

700
00:35:45,356 --> 00:35:46,676
Speaker 10: that I think a lot of people in this room

701
00:35:46,756 --> 00:35:50,916
Speaker 10: have that we've received. What is the latest with Sarah?

702
00:35:50,956 --> 00:35:53,556
Speaker 10: What has happened since the podcast has been released? Can

703
00:35:53,556 --> 00:35:55,196
Speaker 10: you share a little bit of detail with us, Jess

704
00:35:55,476 --> 00:35:55,876
Speaker 10: for sure.

705
00:35:55,996 --> 00:36:00,316
Speaker 2: So, in a very weird coincidence, shortly after the podcast

706
00:36:00,436 --> 00:36:03,716
Speaker 2: was released, Sarah was released to a halfway house.

707
00:36:04,396 --> 00:36:05,396
Speaker 8: So she came out of prison.

708
00:36:05,476 --> 00:36:06,876
Speaker 2: Yeah, So she was out of prison.

709
00:36:08,116 --> 00:36:12,316
Speaker 1: Just like the week that the that we wend around at.

710
00:36:12,196 --> 00:36:14,716
Speaker 2: The same time, which was a really weird coincidence. And

711
00:36:15,516 --> 00:36:18,436
Speaker 2: within a few months though basically what happens it's a

712
00:36:18,516 --> 00:36:21,316
Speaker 2: little bit vague from the kind of court documents that

713
00:36:21,356 --> 00:36:25,436
Speaker 2: I've seen, but she was basically accused of creating a

714
00:36:25,476 --> 00:36:29,436
Speaker 2: hostile environment in her halfway house, and so she was

715
00:36:29,476 --> 00:36:32,276
Speaker 2: sent back to federal prison because when you're in a

716
00:36:32,276 --> 00:36:34,476
Speaker 2: halfway house, it's not like parole. You don't have to

717
00:36:34,516 --> 00:36:38,516
Speaker 2: commit a crime to be considered essentially in violation. And

718
00:36:38,556 --> 00:36:42,316
Speaker 2: she'll be out I think summer of next year.

719
00:36:43,076 --> 00:36:46,476
Speaker 10: Okay, Yeah, talking about Sarah for another moment. One of

720
00:36:46,476 --> 00:36:48,316
Speaker 10: the questions that we got from the audience today was

721
00:36:48,676 --> 00:36:52,596
Speaker 10: Sarah's lives were so complex and multifaceted. How do you

722
00:36:52,636 --> 00:36:55,316
Speaker 10: two think she kept all that straight? So, Jake, I

723
00:36:55,316 --> 00:36:56,796
Speaker 10: want to throw that to you first.

724
00:36:56,796 --> 00:36:59,436
Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know.

725
00:36:59,516 --> 00:37:00,356
Speaker 8: I think about the wedding.

726
00:37:00,476 --> 00:37:02,796
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean the wedding. It was interesting. So

727
00:37:02,916 --> 00:37:05,556
Speaker 1: the reason that Amy got in that car wreck was

728
00:37:05,596 --> 00:37:07,636
Speaker 1: that we were kind of obsessed with the wedding because

729
00:37:07,676 --> 00:37:11,796
Speaker 1: at the wedding there were people that knew she was

730
00:37:11,836 --> 00:37:14,396
Speaker 1: a veteran and people that knew she wasn't a veteran,

731
00:37:14,556 --> 00:37:18,476
Speaker 1: and they were hanging out and having drinks and dancing

732
00:37:18,916 --> 00:37:22,156
Speaker 1: at a summer wedding and it seemed mind blowing to me,

733
00:37:22,196 --> 00:37:25,236
Speaker 1: at least at first, that a lie could survive such

734
00:37:25,236 --> 00:37:31,436
Speaker 1: a delicate moment in time. But lies are curiously stubborn

735
00:37:31,756 --> 00:37:36,196
Speaker 1: and wilful things, and they can survive. And I think

736
00:37:36,236 --> 00:37:39,756
Speaker 1: that sometimes we believe what we want to believe, and

737
00:37:39,876 --> 00:37:42,796
Speaker 1: even if we have information to the contrary and get

738
00:37:42,836 --> 00:37:45,556
Speaker 1: dissonance about what we believe, if we really want to

739
00:37:45,596 --> 00:37:49,636
Speaker 1: believe it, we find ways to ignore it. And I

740
00:37:49,676 --> 00:37:52,116
Speaker 1: am thinking of half a dozen times that that's happened

741
00:37:52,116 --> 00:37:54,836
Speaker 1: to me. And so I don't think that that she

742
00:37:54,996 --> 00:37:57,796
Speaker 1: was some kind of mastermind who kept every single one

743
00:37:57,836 --> 00:38:01,396
Speaker 1: of these half truth straight. I think it speaks to

744
00:38:01,596 --> 00:38:07,196
Speaker 1: human nature that we're all more easily deceived and more

745
00:38:07,196 --> 00:38:09,596
Speaker 1: willingly deceived sometimes than we would care to admit.

746
00:38:09,916 --> 00:38:12,756
Speaker 2: Yeah, I also think it's that default to truth thing,

747
00:38:12,836 --> 00:38:16,916
Speaker 2: where we assume that other humans are telling us the truth.

748
00:38:16,996 --> 00:38:20,396
Speaker 2: And it would have been so illogical to assume that

749
00:38:20,836 --> 00:38:24,876
Speaker 2: someone who had never served had invented this vast kind

750
00:38:24,916 --> 00:38:28,396
Speaker 2: of labyrinth of lies about her service record and about

751
00:38:28,396 --> 00:38:30,916
Speaker 2: having cancer. It just would be so illogical to kind

752
00:38:30,916 --> 00:38:33,116
Speaker 2: of figure that out. And then I think there were

753
00:38:33,116 --> 00:38:36,876
Speaker 2: some practical things too, like Michelle told me, you know,

754
00:38:37,476 --> 00:38:39,476
Speaker 2: she had told a lot of people that she had

755
00:38:39,596 --> 00:38:43,476
Speaker 2: a brain injury. And so if she would say, oh,

756
00:38:43,516 --> 00:38:45,716
Speaker 2: I thought you were in Afghanistan at that time, you

757
00:38:45,756 --> 00:38:48,756
Speaker 2: were actually in graduate school, she would chalk it up

758
00:38:48,756 --> 00:38:49,716
Speaker 2: to the brain injury.

759
00:38:49,796 --> 00:38:51,476
Speaker 1: Yeah. And would you really push back against someone that

760
00:38:51,516 --> 00:38:53,396
Speaker 1: you thought had traumatic brain injury and said you said

761
00:38:53,436 --> 00:38:56,356
Speaker 1: two different things on two different occasions, well, like no kidding.

762
00:38:56,116 --> 00:38:57,836
Speaker 2: About your traumatic service history.

763
00:38:57,996 --> 00:38:59,436
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jess.

764
00:38:59,476 --> 00:39:01,356
Speaker 10: One question I have for you, I mean, I know

765
00:39:01,476 --> 00:39:03,476
Speaker 10: you to be this expert on con artists.

766
00:39:04,236 --> 00:39:07,636
Speaker 8: Why do you think people are so wrapped by these stories?

767
00:39:07,716 --> 00:39:09,436
Speaker 8: What draws us in ugh?

768
00:39:09,996 --> 00:39:11,396
Speaker 2: I think about that a lot. I think there are

769
00:39:11,436 --> 00:39:15,116
Speaker 2: a lot of reasons. I think in general, there are

770
00:39:15,196 --> 00:39:19,796
Speaker 2: just fewer women criminals, so anything that is an anomaly

771
00:39:19,916 --> 00:39:22,756
Speaker 2: is I think interesting to people. But I also think

772
00:39:22,876 --> 00:39:24,636
Speaker 2: Sarah's not a good example of this. I think there

773
00:39:24,636 --> 00:39:28,076
Speaker 2: are other scammers that are more glamorous, like I'm thinking

774
00:39:28,116 --> 00:39:30,556
Speaker 2: of Anna del Vi, who was you know, stealing from

775
00:39:30,596 --> 00:39:34,236
Speaker 2: Mantatan's elite. I think there's this sort of urge, especially

776
00:39:34,316 --> 00:39:38,596
Speaker 2: as a woman, you know, who may not be working

777
00:39:38,596 --> 00:39:40,276
Speaker 2: a great job, or who may not have the life

778
00:39:40,276 --> 00:39:42,956
Speaker 2: that they wanted to have seeing someone steal and get

779
00:39:42,996 --> 00:39:45,916
Speaker 2: away with it. There's this sort of you know, kind

780
00:39:45,916 --> 00:39:47,236
Speaker 2: of free song of something fun.

781
00:39:49,156 --> 00:39:52,276
Speaker 10: Another question for you, Jake, Yeah, so you've hosted what

782
00:39:52,436 --> 00:39:55,676
Speaker 10: now six seasons of deep Cover season seven coming next year.

783
00:39:56,516 --> 00:39:59,436
Speaker 10: Compared to the other seasons of deep Cover, was there

784
00:39:59,436 --> 00:40:01,876
Speaker 10: anything uniquely challenging about this one?

785
00:40:02,796 --> 00:40:05,916
Speaker 1: Yeah? This reminded me of season three a little bit

786
00:40:06,196 --> 00:40:09,836
Speaker 1: in that there was someone of the same trip telling

787
00:40:09,876 --> 00:40:12,476
Speaker 1: half truths and you were left to think about how

788
00:40:12,476 --> 00:40:15,436
Speaker 1: you felt. It's like we said in the sixth episode,

789
00:40:15,476 --> 00:40:18,436
Speaker 1: like I feel for Sarah, I feel pathos for justs

790
00:40:18,436 --> 00:40:21,796
Speaker 1: and I both did. Like it's hard to know because

791
00:40:21,836 --> 00:40:23,436
Speaker 1: you have to take everything you hear, she says with

792
00:40:23,436 --> 00:40:24,996
Speaker 1: a grain of salt. But I think she went through

793
00:40:25,036 --> 00:40:29,156
Speaker 1: some hard stuff. So how do you balance that against

794
00:40:29,716 --> 00:40:31,756
Speaker 1: the kind of the pain that the other people felt

795
00:40:31,796 --> 00:40:36,116
Speaker 1: in the story. And I think that especially because and Jess,

796
00:40:36,116 --> 00:40:39,156
Speaker 1: we've talked about this con artists prey on pathos like

797
00:40:39,196 --> 00:40:43,076
Speaker 1: they pray on I'm in trouble, help me, And that

798
00:40:43,316 --> 00:40:46,436
Speaker 1: was an uncomfortable place that at least me personally like

799
00:40:46,836 --> 00:40:50,436
Speaker 1: lived in while working on this, Like who deserves my sympathy?

800
00:40:50,436 --> 00:40:53,356
Speaker 1: In this story, does everyone deserve my sympathy? And to

801
00:40:53,356 --> 00:40:57,116
Speaker 1: what extent does she deserve twenty five and so and so,

802
00:40:57,436 --> 00:41:02,916
Speaker 1: And that calculus of it was kind of, you know, draining,

803
00:41:04,076 --> 00:41:08,556
Speaker 1: to say the least, And so that felt uniquely kind

804
00:41:08,596 --> 00:41:10,476
Speaker 1: of challenging about the season.

805
00:41:10,996 --> 00:41:15,916
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree that. I think the interviews with Sarah

806
00:41:15,956 --> 00:41:18,476
Speaker 2: were some of the most challenging of my career because

807
00:41:18,476 --> 00:41:21,116
Speaker 2: they were also very long, Like we were in the

808
00:41:21,116 --> 00:41:25,116
Speaker 2: prison with her just meet Jake and her for hours,

809
00:41:25,156 --> 00:41:27,316
Speaker 2: like I think the first day was four hours, and

810
00:41:28,036 --> 00:41:30,836
Speaker 2: you do feel a lot of different emotions. As Jake said,

811
00:41:30,876 --> 00:41:32,756
Speaker 2: there were moments we felt for her. There were moments

812
00:41:32,796 --> 00:41:36,596
Speaker 2: where she felt really cold. There were moments where I

813
00:41:36,636 --> 00:41:40,876
Speaker 2: couldn't tell what was true and what wasn't true. And

814
00:41:40,916 --> 00:41:42,876
Speaker 2: I remember we got out of there and I think

815
00:41:42,876 --> 00:41:45,876
Speaker 2: we went and ate like Peppi's pizza afterward and just.

816
00:41:46,076 --> 00:41:48,236
Speaker 1: Not the New Haven branch, but what we need.

817
00:41:48,116 --> 00:41:50,156
Speaker 2: To do, just kind of staring at each other, like

818
00:41:50,196 --> 00:41:51,436
Speaker 2: what just happened.

819
00:41:57,596 --> 00:42:00,196
Speaker 1: More from our conversation in just a moment.

820
00:42:11,916 --> 00:42:14,796
Speaker 10: What did your collaboration look like day to day when

821
00:42:14,796 --> 00:42:18,076
Speaker 10: building a season like this, How did you resolve disagreements

822
00:42:18,116 --> 00:42:21,196
Speaker 10: about story smelling choices for pulling back. So really, how

823
00:42:21,196 --> 00:42:22,996
Speaker 10: do you work together? What were the kind of pros

824
00:42:23,036 --> 00:42:24,276
Speaker 10: and cons of the collaboration.

825
00:42:24,996 --> 00:42:27,756
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny. I would say this, this is all

826
00:42:27,956 --> 00:42:31,356
Speaker 1: this entire story, this season, everything, it's it's all about

827
00:42:31,516 --> 00:42:34,876
Speaker 1: trust and distrust. And what I will just say is

828
00:42:34,956 --> 00:42:37,316
Speaker 1: the one thing that I knew for Shirton I trusted

829
00:42:37,596 --> 00:42:41,596
Speaker 1: was Jess And so I think that part of trusting

830
00:42:41,636 --> 00:42:45,076
Speaker 1: someone means that if there is disagreement, and there needs

831
00:42:45,076 --> 00:42:50,156
Speaker 1: to be disagreement, that you say, Okay, let me think

832
00:42:50,196 --> 00:42:51,956
Speaker 1: about this, let me hit pause. And I think that

833
00:42:52,436 --> 00:42:54,556
Speaker 1: one of the hardest things about being a storyteller sometimes

834
00:42:54,596 --> 00:42:56,956
Speaker 1: is when you fillure in it alone. And so there

835
00:42:56,956 --> 00:42:58,516
Speaker 1: were definitely a bunch of times where I was like,

836
00:42:58,916 --> 00:43:00,636
Speaker 1: this is my read on this, what do you think?

837
00:43:00,796 --> 00:43:05,716
Speaker 1: And honestly, it made the whole thing doable to have

838
00:43:05,756 --> 00:43:07,116
Speaker 1: another person to bounce it off.

839
00:43:08,876 --> 00:43:09,116
Speaker 9: Yeah.

840
00:43:09,156 --> 00:43:13,836
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I would say, yeah, that underlying trust that

841
00:43:13,876 --> 00:43:17,236
Speaker 1: I had for her judgment was really what kind of

842
00:43:17,356 --> 00:43:18,996
Speaker 1: got us through this from my perspective.

843
00:43:19,396 --> 00:43:22,476
Speaker 2: Thanks Jake, I felt the same. Honestly from the start,

844
00:43:22,516 --> 00:43:24,676
Speaker 2: I really felt like this thing is going to be

845
00:43:24,716 --> 00:43:28,156
Speaker 2: good because Jake Calpern is working on it, and the

846
00:43:28,236 --> 00:43:31,876
Speaker 2: moments where I felt like we were struggling in some

847
00:43:31,996 --> 00:43:34,516
Speaker 2: way to figure what direction to go, it was always

848
00:43:34,636 --> 00:43:37,356
Speaker 2: because we felt like, how do we do justice to

849
00:43:37,396 --> 00:43:39,516
Speaker 2: this story? How do we do justice to the people

850
00:43:39,516 --> 00:43:42,236
Speaker 2: who have trusted us to tell it? And I think

851
00:43:42,316 --> 00:43:45,516
Speaker 2: it's so so good to have a collaborator. We're both

852
00:43:45,716 --> 00:43:48,436
Speaker 2: you know, have been longtime freelancers. I used to joke

853
00:43:48,436 --> 00:43:50,956
Speaker 2: to Amy that I feel like I'm an outdoor cat

854
00:43:50,996 --> 00:43:55,276
Speaker 2: and so it was really nice to feel like having

855
00:43:55,316 --> 00:43:58,796
Speaker 2: that support that you often don't have when you're working

856
00:43:58,836 --> 00:44:00,996
Speaker 2: on a magazine piece or a book by yourself for

857
00:44:01,116 --> 00:44:01,916
Speaker 2: years or months.

858
00:44:03,076 --> 00:44:04,876
Speaker 10: There's one question from the audience that I want us

859
00:44:04,916 --> 00:44:07,596
Speaker 10: to touch on. They said, I was feeling a tiny

860
00:44:07,596 --> 00:44:10,556
Speaker 10: bit of empathy for Sarah and till the bomb about

861
00:44:10,596 --> 00:44:12,876
Speaker 10: the letters that we covered.

862
00:44:12,636 --> 00:44:14,796
Speaker 8: In the series. The question is do you think she

863
00:44:14,876 --> 00:44:17,316
Speaker 8: felt any remorse and before?

864
00:44:17,516 --> 00:44:19,196
Speaker 1: And Jess, you can take first crack at this, but

865
00:44:19,356 --> 00:44:22,356
Speaker 1: just for some context again, because it's been a minute.

866
00:44:22,676 --> 00:44:26,276
Speaker 1: These letters that Amy's referring to are the letters submitted

867
00:44:26,276 --> 00:44:30,756
Speaker 1: to the court at sentencing that were meant to elicit

868
00:44:31,076 --> 00:44:34,916
Speaker 1: sympathy and mercy from the judge saying basically like, this

869
00:44:34,956 --> 00:44:38,076
Speaker 1: person has been through this, but they have these redeeming values,

870
00:44:38,316 --> 00:44:39,116
Speaker 1: show mercy.

871
00:44:39,316 --> 00:44:40,836
Speaker 8: I mean, just to see this up a little bit more.

872
00:44:40,956 --> 00:44:43,036
Speaker 10: We had no idea about this, and then we went

873
00:44:43,076 --> 00:44:46,436
Speaker 10: to interview Sam, and I believe that's the first moment that.

874
00:44:46,756 --> 00:44:49,676
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, that became clear. Basically early on in

875
00:44:49,676 --> 00:44:53,516
Speaker 2: the reporting, I had a great contact in the county

876
00:44:53,516 --> 00:44:57,756
Speaker 2: Clerk's office who said you should really request these letters

877
00:44:57,796 --> 00:45:00,436
Speaker 2: before sentencing because there was no trial and so people

878
00:45:00,436 --> 00:45:03,556
Speaker 2: could send in these again as Jake was saying these

879
00:45:03,556 --> 00:45:05,436
Speaker 2: sort of pleas for mercy, and there were two that

880
00:45:05,516 --> 00:45:08,836
Speaker 2: really stuck out to me. One was written by Sam,

881
00:45:08,876 --> 00:45:13,116
Speaker 2: who was Sarah's then girlfriend and also physical therapist, and

882
00:45:13,156 --> 00:45:17,196
Speaker 2: another was written by Sam's mother, who was dying from

883
00:45:17,236 --> 00:45:21,716
Speaker 2: cancer and from whom Sarah stole a bill of a

884
00:45:21,836 --> 00:45:24,396
Speaker 2: cancer bill as part of her ruse to steal money

885
00:45:24,436 --> 00:45:28,396
Speaker 2: from a charity. And I remember thinking like, wow, the

886
00:45:29,236 --> 00:45:33,996
Speaker 2: just the absolute kind of magnanimity of these women to

887
00:45:34,156 --> 00:45:37,636
Speaker 2: still be pleading on this woman's behalf. I just was

888
00:45:37,676 --> 00:45:39,796
Speaker 2: so in awe of it. And I remember when we

889
00:45:39,876 --> 00:45:42,116
Speaker 2: went to interview Sam, I asked her about it and

890
00:45:42,156 --> 00:45:46,476
Speaker 2: she was like, what are you talking about. I never

891
00:45:46,516 --> 00:45:48,596
Speaker 2: wrote a letter, and I read it to her and

892
00:45:48,676 --> 00:45:50,316
Speaker 2: she said, I didn't write that.

893
00:45:51,676 --> 00:45:53,316
Speaker 1: And that letter was like part of what drew us

894
00:45:53,356 --> 00:45:55,076
Speaker 1: into the story in the first place, because I think,

895
00:45:55,116 --> 00:45:59,196
Speaker 1: like our wonderful editor, Karen Shakerji is always saying, you

896
00:45:59,276 --> 00:46:02,116
Speaker 1: need wrinkles of complexity in a story. If someone is

897
00:46:02,156 --> 00:46:05,116
Speaker 1: a two dimensional character, they're not interesting, and these letters

898
00:46:05,116 --> 00:46:07,756
Speaker 1: were super interesting because it was like these people were

899
00:46:07,796 --> 00:46:10,636
Speaker 1: standing by her even after everything that she'd been through,

900
00:46:10,676 --> 00:46:12,916
Speaker 1: and it kind of left us feeling like, wow, let's

901
00:46:12,996 --> 00:46:15,356
Speaker 1: let's figure out what this is about. And then I

902
00:46:15,356 --> 00:46:17,876
Speaker 1: remember you guys called and you're like, yeah, those letters.

903
00:46:18,596 --> 00:46:21,356
Speaker 2: And I should say Sarah denies writing those.

904
00:46:22,956 --> 00:46:25,036
Speaker 8: And Sam admitted that she had seen the letter.

905
00:46:25,156 --> 00:46:26,956
Speaker 10: It was almost kind of like a group project, like

906
00:46:27,076 --> 00:46:29,636
Speaker 10: you write it and I'll sign it. And so there's

907
00:46:29,676 --> 00:46:32,756
Speaker 10: a mom's letters, she claimed Sam crime she didn't know about.

908
00:46:33,036 --> 00:46:36,396
Speaker 2: So it's tricky. I mean, that also was a moment

909
00:46:36,476 --> 00:46:40,196
Speaker 2: for me where it did it was hard to learn

910
00:46:40,276 --> 00:46:43,636
Speaker 2: and it was hard to kind of reckon with. I

911
00:46:43,676 --> 00:46:46,996
Speaker 2: still do have some empathy for Sarah, but that was

912
00:46:47,356 --> 00:46:50,156
Speaker 2: not a moment where I felt very endeared to her,

913
00:46:50,196 --> 00:46:51,716
Speaker 2: and I think I felt like I had a really

914
00:46:51,716 --> 00:46:54,916
Speaker 2: hard time with it because it's after all of these

915
00:46:55,316 --> 00:46:57,716
Speaker 2: crimes that she's committed, and it feels like it's the

916
00:46:57,756 --> 00:47:00,756
Speaker 2: moment for her to take some responsibility. And I think

917
00:47:00,796 --> 00:47:03,316
Speaker 2: what was tricky and also interesting about her as a

918
00:47:03,356 --> 00:47:06,436
Speaker 2: source was there were so many moments where she really

919
00:47:06,476 --> 00:47:10,316
Speaker 2: did seem to take responsibility, but then in the next

920
00:47:10,316 --> 00:47:14,196
Speaker 2: sentence there was a big butt or a I don't

921
00:47:14,196 --> 00:47:18,116
Speaker 2: remember doing that. So she's very very tricky to pin down.

922
00:47:18,276 --> 00:47:20,076
Speaker 10: Do you feel like you got genuine remorse from her?

923
00:47:20,116 --> 00:47:21,516
Speaker 10: I mean, you both sat down with her in prison.

924
00:47:21,556 --> 00:47:23,276
Speaker 10: Did you feel like there were moments in those two

925
00:47:23,356 --> 00:47:25,036
Speaker 10: days where you felt genuine remorse.

926
00:47:26,596 --> 00:47:30,036
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. Do you do you

927
00:47:30,036 --> 00:47:31,156
Speaker 1: feel you can say.

928
00:47:32,436 --> 00:47:36,316
Speaker 2: I feel like there were moments. There were a lot

929
00:47:36,316 --> 00:47:42,316
Speaker 2: of moments that I think were not real remorse. But

930
00:47:42,396 --> 00:47:44,716
Speaker 2: it's so hard to say, And I think that's why

931
00:47:45,476 --> 00:47:48,516
Speaker 2: part of why the series has resonated with so many

932
00:47:48,556 --> 00:47:52,356
Speaker 2: people is that she is still really really hard to

933
00:47:52,356 --> 00:47:55,276
Speaker 2: figure out. It doesn't really I don't feel like we

934
00:47:55,396 --> 00:47:57,156
Speaker 2: totally got to the bottom of her.

935
00:47:57,876 --> 00:48:00,116
Speaker 1: Yeah. The thing that I will say too is that

936
00:48:01,756 --> 00:48:07,276
Speaker 1: you know, we all to much lesser extent have different

937
00:48:07,396 --> 00:48:10,356
Speaker 1: versions of ourselves. So the idea of that kind of

938
00:48:11,716 --> 00:48:15,836
Speaker 1: deception doesn't strike me as wholly foreign. It's just was

939
00:48:15,876 --> 00:48:20,556
Speaker 1: taken to an extreme that that's kind of unfathomable. The

940
00:48:20,596 --> 00:48:25,556
Speaker 1: impulse feels actually very deeply human, that we have these

941
00:48:25,556 --> 00:48:28,276
Speaker 1: different aspects of our subs that we lean into. I

942
00:48:28,356 --> 00:48:30,956
Speaker 1: remember one day my wife is a triathlete, and I

943
00:48:30,996 --> 00:48:33,316
Speaker 1: wore her iron Man hat because it was like lying

944
00:48:33,356 --> 00:48:35,476
Speaker 1: around the house. And I went to the gym and

945
00:48:35,476 --> 00:48:36,956
Speaker 1: I was like getting the looks because that's where in

946
00:48:36,996 --> 00:48:39,476
Speaker 1: the iron Man hat. And I was like, I could

947
00:48:39,476 --> 00:48:42,436
Speaker 1: explain to everyone in the gym right now that it's

948
00:48:42,476 --> 00:48:44,116
Speaker 1: my wife's hat, or I could just like let this

949
00:48:44,156 --> 00:48:46,356
Speaker 1: go on a little longer, you know, And I just

950
00:48:46,356 --> 00:48:49,996
Speaker 1: felt like, that's that's this space now. Eventually I'm like,

951
00:48:50,036 --> 00:48:51,756
Speaker 1: I got a wife, she's the iron Man. I can't

952
00:48:51,796 --> 00:48:55,876
Speaker 1: swim like, you know, not really, but I think that

953
00:48:55,956 --> 00:48:59,276
Speaker 1: this idea, there's aspects of this that I actually do

954
00:48:59,396 --> 00:49:02,116
Speaker 1: feel like I could see how you could start down

955
00:49:02,156 --> 00:49:04,636
Speaker 1: this path. It's just that there were no breaks, and

956
00:49:04,676 --> 00:49:07,836
Speaker 1: it just accelerated in this kind of hyperbolic way.

957
00:49:08,556 --> 00:49:10,516
Speaker 8: Okay here, he's not an ironman.

958
00:49:11,796 --> 00:49:13,076
Speaker 2: Correcting the record right now.

959
00:49:13,076 --> 00:49:14,956
Speaker 10: That's it, so we're going to wrap up a little bit.

960
00:49:14,956 --> 00:49:18,396
Speaker 10: I have one last question for each of you. For Jess,

961
00:49:18,716 --> 00:49:20,396
Speaker 10: what have you been up to? What's next for you?

962
00:49:21,636 --> 00:49:24,876
Speaker 2: So I'm really excited that my book is going to

963
00:49:24,916 --> 00:49:27,996
Speaker 2: be published with Simon and Schuster, and it's a book

964
00:49:28,036 --> 00:49:31,476
Speaker 2: about female scammers, women con artists of all stripes, so

965
00:49:31,516 --> 00:49:34,716
Speaker 2: there'll be some more material on Sarah. The book is

966
00:49:34,756 --> 00:49:38,236
Speaker 2: called Beg Borrow Scam and it will be coming out

967
00:49:38,276 --> 00:49:41,556
Speaker 2: in fall twenty twenty seven, so put it on your calendars.

968
00:49:41,836 --> 00:49:44,116
Speaker 2: Congratch ways away. Thank you very much.

969
00:49:44,116 --> 00:49:46,396
Speaker 8: Looking forward to reading even more of your great reporting.

970
00:49:47,316 --> 00:49:52,116
Speaker 1: Jee. Yes I'm next for you. Yes, I'm busy working

971
00:49:52,156 --> 00:49:55,836
Speaker 1: on the next season of deep Cover. And actually I

972
00:49:55,916 --> 00:49:58,596
Speaker 1: was in Dallas reporting in November, and I just got

973
00:49:58,596 --> 00:50:01,676
Speaker 1: back from a week of reporting in the Ozarks. I

974
00:50:01,716 --> 00:50:03,956
Speaker 1: have a little time. I can't tell you much about it,

975
00:50:04,036 --> 00:50:05,756
Speaker 1: but I will I will tell you. I know you

976
00:50:06,276 --> 00:50:10,596
Speaker 1: Amy's here store. And I'm also that my family doesn't

977
00:50:10,636 --> 00:50:13,076
Speaker 1: even know yet, which is that all these docs we found,

978
00:50:13,076 --> 00:50:16,916
Speaker 1: this treasure trove of documents and audio, and the person

979
00:50:16,916 --> 00:50:19,556
Speaker 1: that found them was like, I'm going to mail them

980
00:50:19,556 --> 00:50:23,276
Speaker 1: to you, and this is just utter stupidity. I should

981
00:50:23,276 --> 00:50:25,276
Speaker 1: have on the moment said like no, no, no, no, I

982
00:50:25,316 --> 00:50:28,476
Speaker 1: got you a ups R effects number. But I was like, okay,

983
00:50:28,676 --> 00:50:30,996
Speaker 1: mailed them to my Yale address because figuring like the

984
00:50:31,036 --> 00:50:34,836
Speaker 1: yellingsh Department and the mail service somehow between them and

985
00:50:35,036 --> 00:50:39,236
Speaker 1: the office, it like didn't show up. And I called

986
00:50:39,276 --> 00:50:41,756
Speaker 1: and I called Yale Central Office and I call, no

987
00:50:41,796 --> 00:50:44,116
Speaker 1: one has seen this thing. It's not the university's faults.

988
00:50:44,116 --> 00:50:46,636
Speaker 1: It turns out they're like call the post office. So

989
00:50:46,676 --> 00:50:49,396
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, right, you know. But I was

990
00:50:49,436 --> 00:50:51,876
Speaker 1: like I know, I'm want to call. And he is

991
00:50:51,916 --> 00:50:55,956
Speaker 1: a veteran and he's our mailman, Mitch. So I called Mitch.

992
00:50:57,476 --> 00:51:00,316
Speaker 1: I call Mitch my we all know Mitch, my family here.

993
00:51:00,756 --> 00:51:04,236
Speaker 1: And Mitch is like, brother, I am on it. He

994
00:51:04,276 --> 00:51:07,476
Speaker 1: goes down, He goes down to the central New Haven

995
00:51:07,556 --> 00:51:10,796
Speaker 1: Post Office. He found out where it scanned in and

996
00:51:10,956 --> 00:51:13,716
Speaker 1: figures out the GEO tracking on it, and he's like,

997
00:51:13,876 --> 00:51:19,436
Speaker 1: I'm delivering the documents to your house tomorrow afternoon. Mitchell.

998
00:51:19,516 --> 00:51:20,636
Speaker 8: Incredible, thank you.

999
00:51:22,036 --> 00:51:23,036
Speaker 2: Let's give it up for Mitch.

1000
00:51:23,156 --> 00:51:26,076
Speaker 1: God bless you, Mitchell. We appreciate you great well.

1001
00:51:26,116 --> 00:51:27,196
Speaker 8: Thank you so much for being here.

1002
00:51:27,196 --> 00:51:29,956
Speaker 10: This was a wonderful evening thanks to our audience, and

1003
00:51:30,196 --> 00:51:31,036
Speaker 10: happy holidays.

1004
00:51:31,756 --> 00:51:41,476
Speaker 1: Thanks allry body, Thanks for listening everybody, and remember we're

1005
00:51:41,516 --> 00:51:45,076
Speaker 1: still raising money for Patrol Basavat, so if you'd like

1006
00:51:45,156 --> 00:51:47,876
Speaker 1: to contribute, and we really hope you do, you can

1007
00:51:47,916 --> 00:51:52,356
Speaker 1: do that through the link and the episode description. This

1008
00:51:52,436 --> 00:51:56,156
Speaker 1: episode was hosted by Jess Mchughe and me Jake Halburn.

1009
00:51:56,636 --> 00:51:59,996
Speaker 1: It was produced by Amy Gaines McQuaid and Isaac Carter,

1010
00:52:00,876 --> 00:52:05,516
Speaker 1: mastering by Eleanor Osborne. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith.

1011
00:52:06,676 --> 00:52:12,036
Speaker 1: Thanks to Amy McDonald, stephen A, Candice Springer, Chris Barrios,

1012
00:52:12,316 --> 00:52:15,956
Speaker 1: Taylor Bettison and Jeff Fishon from w b R City

1013
00:52:15,996 --> 00:52:21,676
Speaker 1: Space for hosting special Thanks to Jane Miliotis, Amy Hagidorn,

1014
00:52:21,916 --> 00:52:27,476
Speaker 1: Karen Schakerji Morgan Rattner, Eric Sandler, and Greta Cohen. I'm

1015
00:52:27,556 --> 00:52:28,196
Speaker 1: Jake calpurn