WEBVTT - What does the Facebook Oversight Board do? 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.800 Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio. 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:14.720 Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:18.000 Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with I Heart Radio 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:22.320 and how the tech Area. A couple of years ago, Facebook, 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:27.040 which of course later became Meta, announced the intention to 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:30.200 create an Oversight Board for the purposes of her viewing 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:36.320 Facebook's content moderation practices. The company was still is under 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:40.160 a ton of pressure to respond to various issues, ranging 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:45.760 from disinformation campaigns to the proliferation of hate speech. Unfortunately, 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:53.960 Facebook's responses were frequently criticized as not being sufficient, as 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:59.400 were the company's policies, which had noticeable gaps and transparency issues. Thus, 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:03.080 the creation of the Oversight Board and the Board, while 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:07.000 deriving funds from a trust that was created by Facebook, 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:11.440 is independent of Meta itself. I had the chance to 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:15.640 speak with dex Hunter Torrik, who heads up the communications 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:19.080 department at the Oversight Board. We talked about the Board's mission, 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:21.800 We talked about its history and how it tackles the 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:26.240 challenge of picking and deciding cases that have the potential 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:30.920 to impact millions or potentially even billions of users. And 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:35.920 what follows is my conversation with him. Enjoy Dex, Welcome 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:38.680 to text stuff. It is a pleasure to have you 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:42.160 on the show. Great. I'm really excited to talk to 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:46.280 you because the Facebook Oversight Board is something that I've 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:51.440 talked about a few times since it first began to 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:55.200 to be a thing a few years ago. But I 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:58.120 feel like I include myself here. I feel like a 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:01.000 lot of people don't have a full unders standing of 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:05.800 what the board actually does, why it's They're like, what 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:11.240 necessitated it's um, it's creation and the process by which 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:15.120 it goes through while it's determining the outcome of of 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:19.320 various cases. So I'm so glad to have you here 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:23.080 to kind of pull back the veil of mystery because 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:25.120 I think it's very easy easy for those of us 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:31.080 in the media too, even unconsciously misrepresent what's happening. Sure. 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:33.280 I mean, when you hear about the board, right, and 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:36.079 you think there's a group of experts who are focused 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:41.400 on things like content moderation standards and Facebook's community standards, 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:45.000 you know, the rules that govern the platforms, it is 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:47.000 something that I think a lot of people sort of 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:49.840 skip past, right. It's almost like when you're installing an 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:52.639 app on your iPhone. You get those disclaimers and nobody 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:55.720 reads them. You just click yes. You know. Um, it's 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:59.600 something that's incredibly complex, and it sounds quite dry, and 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:02.440 it is is. And because of that, we naturally gravitate 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:05.360 to the more exciting questions about, you know, how should 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:08.480 social media be regulated? Um, what are the kind of 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:11.560 structural issues within the industry? Um. You know that we 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:13.880 can have lots of points of view on the truth 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:19.160 is those rules that Facebook and now matter of course, um, 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:23.120 you know have constructed four platforms like Facebook and Instagram. 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:27.160 They have an enormous impact on free speech and human 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:31.440 rights around the world. They govern almost every aspect of 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:35.800 online discourse today on any given topic. So we really 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:38.920 see the value of the Board as an institution that 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:43.840 is focused on scrutinizing those rules and understanding the impact 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:46.360 on people's lives and then working at how to improve 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:49.480 them so that we better defend free expression and human rights. 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:53.520 That is a incredibly valuable mission. And I would say, 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:55.560 I think the other thing to think about with the 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:59.840 Board is really, um, we are only a small part 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:02.960 of the solution to the you know, much larger challenges 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:05.240 that you know are occurring all across the tech industry 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:09.240 and across social media, and in particular with meta UM. 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:11.720 And I think people often today, where we have such 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:14.840 short attention spans and the world is in such crisis, 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:17.680 we often think, UM, I want a quick solution to 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:19.760 all of these problems. And the board is not a 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:21.760 quick solution to those problems, and it will only ever 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:25.360 be a small part of the overall solutions that we need. 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:28.120 But even though it's only part of the solution, I 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:31.040 think it can still be incredibly valuable. So that's that's 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:33.560 how I go about describing the impact of the boards 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:36.880 and working on a sort of purpose in the world. Yeah, 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:38.800 and when you look at as you were mentioned, in 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:41.520 the world in crisis, I mean there are crises all 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:46.240 over the world where we often see social networks being 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:51.039 pulled into them. Whether you're talking about Myanmar or Russia 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:54.560 and Ukraine, or you talk about India, I mean, they're 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:58.320 they're famous cases or even here in the United States. UM, 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:01.840 famous cases all around the world where you have this 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:08.000 delicate balancing act of how do you best serve uh, 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:11.360 the the customers of Facebook who are actually using the product, 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:14.080 or depending on your point of view, the product of 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:17.120 Facebook or using the product, uh. And then and then 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:19.560 how do you how do you also make sure that 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:26.520 it's it's not violating any laws to uphold a certain 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:29.320 policy like that. That to me is probably the most 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:32.520 complicated part of the picture, because I think a lot 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:35.320 of people can have a knee jerk reaction when they 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:39.520 see maybe a piece of content being removed or a 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:42.040 piece of content staying up when you may seem like 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:47.440 it's controversial, but without having the full understanding of the context, 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:51.320 uh it can you know you might not you might 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:55.760 not have the the appreciation of why that move was made. 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:59.760 And then, of course the Oversight Board can step in 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:04.600 when you have cases where people have appealed UH an 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:07.880 action that Facebook has taken in order to make a 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:10.560 judgment over whether or not that was the right call 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:15.400 more or less getting it right absolutely, And I think 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:17.719 you hit the nail on the head right, um, which 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:22.120 is these are incredibly challenging issues where there isn't always 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:26.760 an easy right answer um. And without the context, you 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:31.000 certainly can't make an informed decision about these issues. So 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:33.479 I'll give you a very specific example. One of the 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:36.080 early cases of the board took on when we started 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:41.880 operating in twenty twenty one was around a speech relating 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:44.840 to COVID misinformation. So there was a piece of content 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:48.640 that had been taken down by then Facebook from their 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:52.600 platform under their COVID misinformation rules, and when the board 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:55.719 looked at it, we actually found it was perfectly legitimate speech. 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:59.640 It wasn't something that was spreading something that we thought, 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:02.679 you know, had a potential of leading to to imminent harm. 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:05.080 It was something that was a legitimate debate about public 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:09.600 health policy and how authority should be responding to COVID 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:14.480 in France. And these are extraordinarily thorny questions, right if 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:16.600 you have something that seems like it might be in 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:20.720 the COVID misinformation space, given how sensitive that topic is, 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:23.880 given the enormity of the public health emergency, you might 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:26.040 as a platform just you know, err on the side 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:28.840 of caution and take something down. But if you do that, 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:30.920 and if you do that a lot, and you have 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:34.920 that sort of cumulative impact on freedom expression, we are 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:39.760 muscling the ability of communities to have informed debates about 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:41.679 these issues, and we need to be able to have those. 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:45.640 It is perfectly legitimate to have debates about how as 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:48.560 a society we should respond to things such as COVID. 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:51.120 Another example, just from the last few months, we had 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:54.760 a case that involved someone in Sweden who had posted 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:59.680 about sexual abuse of minors. And this is obviously, you know, 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:03.360 ex extraordinarily sensitive, and this piece of content was you know, 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:06.240 taken down UM and it was found to be you know, 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:09.760 very graphic and something that was deeply unpleasant at the 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:13.560 same time as being you know, deeply deeply unpleasant and 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:16.400 very very hard to to read. It was something that 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:21.680 raised legitimate questions again about sentencing and how people you know, 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:23.880 who are involved in these kinds of crimes should be 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:27.720 treated as a society. So again something that is important 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:30.119 for people people to be able to have discussions about 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:32.760 in spite of how difficult it is, UM, you know, 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:34.920 to read some of these things. So the board is 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:37.960 constantly looking to navigate these issues, and we judge each 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.959 piece of content based on a set of several things. 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:46.240 How does content interact with Meta's own rules and standards, 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:49.200 so their own stated rules that applied for the platforms 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:52.200 um is content compatible with that. We're looking at the 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:56.080 values that the company says that they abide by. And 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:58.400 of course then you sometimes have tension between the values 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:00.680 that the company says there by by the actual rules 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:02.560 that they've come up with, and we look to clarify 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:04.640 that tension. The third piece, which is where I think 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:07.400 the most interesting. You know, an important angle for the 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:11.320 board is is how content and the decisions made about 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:15.200 that content relate to international human rights standards. So of 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:17.320 course there have been decades of work by all sorts 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:19.960 of experts and leaders, you know, across the ecosystem which 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:22.840 have worked to codify human rights standards and norms. You know, 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:25.960 how we think it is acceptable to treat people and 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:29.280 communities in a way that protects their freedom of expression 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:31.600 and their human rights. And the Board is constantly going 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:33.600 back to that body of knowledge to try and make 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:36.280 decisions in a way that is principled and ultimately puts 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:40.240 those people first. It boggles my mind at how complicated 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:43.400 this is. See, I love tex stuff. I love doing 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:47.040 the technology side because I've said this many times. The 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:50.240 beauty of technology is either it works or it doesn't right, 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:53.920 either it's wired properly or it's not. Whereas when we 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:57.280 start getting into the application of technology in the real world, gosh, 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:00.240 people just make it so much more complicated. Yes, really, 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:02.400 I used to be a SpaceX and you know, my 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:05.160 favorite thing about that going to there from where I 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:07.400 previously was, you know, I was working at Facebook before 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:10.280 that was ultimately the rocket launchers or it doesn't. There's 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:12.400 no spinning it. You know, either you know, puts a 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:15.160 satellite up there or it doesn't. It everyone knows when 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:17.520 it doesn't. But this isn't like that, and that's what 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:21.480 makes it so I think challenging and sometimes unsatisfying for 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:23.880 a lot of people. You know, there are a relatively 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:26.440 fewer opportunities for the board to say, ah, we have 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:30.120 absolutely nailed it and everyone else is wrong about this. 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:32.760 You know, there is the rocket, you know, launching. You know, 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:34.559 sometimes there's a lot of debate about whether that's a 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:38.440 rocket or not. Dex and I will have more to 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:49.600 say about the Facebook Oversight Board after these messages. When 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:52.160 you start talking about things like digital rights, I mean, 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:55.000 there have been plenty of cases, even well before the 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:59.360 Facebook Oversight Board was formed, where you had some really 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:05.440 thorny aces where the question was who is ultimately um 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:07.760 in the wrong or more in the wrong on some 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:11.840 of these cases where it became a question of freedom 0:11:11.840 --> 0:11:16.320 of speech, and digital rights versus someone's right to privacy. 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:20.840 These are very complicated matters and I I certainly wouldn't 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:23.280 want to be the person to have to adjudicate which 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:26.520 is the most important. Um. Let's let's let's backtrack a 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:28.880 little bit though. Let's talk a little bit about the 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:32.280 actual formation of the board itself. Can you talk about 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:36.000 sort of how that came to be? Yeah? Absolutely, So. 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:39.400 The board was created by Facebook back when it was 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:43.080 still called Facebook, and the first um, sort of you know, 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:46.920 vision for the board was announced by Mark Zuckerberg back 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:50.120 in twenty nineteen, and he wrote a long note which 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:53.719 he posts on his Facebook outlining the vision for an 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:57.080 independent body that could make decisions about some of the 0:11:57.120 --> 0:12:00.160 most consequential content issues that the company was face ing. 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:04.520 And the sort of elevator pitch for why you would 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:07.800 want to create the sort of body was very simple. Um, 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:12.840 the world is of enormous and growing complexity, and there 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:16.120 are fewer and fewer decisions that the company can just 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:20.319 go and make successfully on its own. So having an 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:24.400 independent oversight body filled with leaders and experts from a 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:28.080 lot of different backgrounds was a way of expanding the 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:31.679 diversity of perspectives that the company had available to it, 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:34.760 and at the same time building a structure that gave 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:38.920 people trust in the rules and the way those rules 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:41.600 were enforced on these platforms that have become such a 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:44.120 big part of our lives. And the design of the 0:12:44.120 --> 0:12:47.120 board incredibly complex, something that took quite a long time 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:49.200 because I think the company, to its credit, wanted to 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:51.400 get this right. So they went out and they consulted 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:54.440 an enormous number of different stakeholders around the world, you know, 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:56.960 more than two thousand people, um, you know, in many, 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:00.360 many countries, And they spent about a year tracking around 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:06.360 basically having these consultations with civil society, with experts, with lawyers, um, 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:09.080 you know, with policy makers, until they came up with 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:11.320 a structure which was you know, I think, really really 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:13.199 strong and and is the one that we now use. 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:17.880 So they built this institution with three components. There's the board, 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:19.800 which is whateveryone immediately thinks of when they think of 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:23.040 the oversight board. Right now, we've got twenty members, you know, 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:25.960 who come from a lot of different backgrounds and perspectives. 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:29.200 Ultimately the board might grow up to a maximum of 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:32.920 forty people. We then have a trust and the trust 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:37.439 has a set of trustees who operate again independently from META. 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:41.320 Their job is to oversee the sort of fiduciary you know, 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:43.760 duties that are needed to run an organization like this, 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:46.480 and the real value is to protect the independence of 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:49.880 the board. So META does fund the board. They put 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:53.520 money into that trust. There's an irrevocable trust that's overseen 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:56.240 by those trustees, and the trustees are there basically to 0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:58.640 ensure that all the you know, sort of messy you 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:01.480 know conversations about resource seeing and so on take place 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:05.479 at arm's length from where the decisions are happening. And trustees, 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:08.080 of course don't have any role in the decision making 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:10.719 and the sort of substantive you know, policy work of 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:13.480 the board. You then have the third piece of the board, 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:15.880 which is where I sit, which is the full time 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:19.280 team of staff. So behind those board members you have 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:21.480 a full time team of you know, other experts and 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:24.680 people who helped keep the institution running, UM who helps 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:27.640 steer those cases through their life cycle at the board 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:33.000 and so UM. The board was announced in May twenty twenty, 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:34.920 that's when the first twenty members were announced, and then 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:37.520 we started accepting cases towards the end of that year, 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:40.320 and then the first decisions came out in January one. 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:42.640 So we're just a little bit over a year into 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:44.800 the life of the board now. Um and you know, 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:50.040 we've delivered over twenty cases now over a hundred detailed 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:52.720 policy recommendations to the company. Some of these cases have 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:55.520 been very, very significant. Others have been very significant but 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:58.680 have received less attention. But we're starting to see the 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:02.160 impact of the board's on the company, starting to see 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:04.880 tangible outcomes in terms of how those rules are structured 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:08.560 at Meta and how they're being enforced. Um And we've 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:10.400 got you know, years left to run for the board, 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:14.800 So I think it's it's an extraordinary exciting experiment, um 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:17.120 you know, which Meta committed to, but is one that 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:19.600 is becoming you know, more real by the day and 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:22.480 and less like a experiment and more like an enduring 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:24.360 institution that I think will be around for some time. 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:27.480 I like that word experiment because I feel like that's 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:30.040 why a lot of people viewed the board when it 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:35.640 was first announced. It was really a new kind of concept, 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:40.440 this idea of an outside entity that was independent of 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:44.520 the platform saying making judgments about whether or not the 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:48.440 platform was actually enforcing its own rules, whether those rules 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:52.720 were legal in some cases, I'm sure, um and and 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:55.600 and again, like the context of each case, I think 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:59.680 a lot of people were kind of kind of confused 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:01.560 by it, like it was surprising, it was not something 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:03.360 they would think of. But then you also have to 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:08.040 consider the fact that META has such a global reach, right, 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:11.600 It's it's very easy, I think, especially for people in 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:13.840 my country, in the United States, it's very easy for 0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:17.760 us to be so US centric that we forget the 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:22.640 reach and how deep the penetration is in other parts 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:26.800 of the world. Uh, And so we don't even start 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:28.920 to consider the fact that we need to have a 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:33.680 different set of rules in order to guide those organizations 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:37.800 because we're used to everything being US. So that I 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:39.920 think was part of the confusion. Yeah, I think I 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:42.280 think you raise a really important point, Jonathan. I mean, 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:45.720 so much of the discourse you're absolutely right, is driven 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:48.240 by folks in the United States, and if not in 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.600 the United States, in Western Europe. And we are the 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:54.360 parts of the world which are super connected, you know. 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:58.640 Our experience of connectivity, um, you know is absolutely phenomenal 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:00.280 compared to the experience that a lot of people in 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:04.080 other communities have and um, I think people often take 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:08.080 connectivity for granted in those markets. Um. You know, we've 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:10.359 just seen, you know, in the last few days and 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:13.359 weeks what it means to be connected. Um, you know 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:16.680 in places like Ukraine or in Russia, where people are 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:19.240 you know, struggling to have their voices heard. And the 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:22.560 extraordinary impact that social media can have in allowing people 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:25.800 to mobilize and communities to organize and to fight for 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:28.439 things like freedom, you know, a struggle that again a 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:30.280 lot of people in the West of sort of you know, 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:33.359 until fairly recently, it's sort of taken for granted. So 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:35.960 I do think the fact that the Board operates and 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:40.159 thinks very globally is a huge asset. Over half of 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:42.680 our cases so far have been from the Global South, 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:46.280 and the Board has been very deliberate about going after 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:49.560 issues in places like India and myan mar um, you know, 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:52.000 in Latin America, because we think those areas have been 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:54.399 neglected for too long. When it comes to looking at 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:58.239 content moderation and the discourse about protecting speech online and well, 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:02.120 I think another thing that really nails home how important 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:05.240 this is for me is that if we start removing 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:08.879 things like like ethics and or morality or whatever, and 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:11.880 we're looking at things from purely a business standpoint. From 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:15.719 Meta's point of view, um, clearly the company gets the 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:18.880 majority of its revenue from places like the United States, 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:22.399 in Western Europe, less so in other places where you 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:26.080 have this limited connectivity, and as a result from that 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:30.200 business perspective, again not taking humanity into account, you start 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:32.119 to understand, oh, this is where they're going to dedicate 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:35.320 their resources because this is where the revenue comes from. 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:38.840 That's where an uh an independent board really becomes important 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:43.200 because they don't have that connection to this is where 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:44.719 the revenue comes from, So this is where we need 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:48.400 to focus. It's they're divorced from that so that they 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:51.439 can take that approach where they say, no, let's really 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:56.080 look at these areas where traditionally the company itself may 0:18:56.119 --> 0:19:00.240 not have dedicated a lot of its focus and makes 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:03.359 certain that the decisions that are being made are really 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:08.040 the right ones and are not neglecting a population simply 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:10.920 because they're not driving ad revenue the way other parts 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:13.639 of the world are. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean the board 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:19.840 doesn't look at things like metas public relations, you know, strategy, 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:23.399 or the impact of decisions on advertisers or you know, 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:26.320 metas ad revenues. That is absolutely not a rubric that 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:29.159 we're interested in. UM. We're we're focused on, you know, 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:33.920 advancing free speech and human rights and very much UM 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:37.119 ensuring that the company treats its users better. And I 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:40.240 think the way that the board was constructed bringing together 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:42.879 leaders you know, who have the kinds of backgrounds and 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:45.960 perspectives and expertise who allow us to go and focus 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:48.800 on that UM, you know, who aren't being sidetracked into 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:51.240 you know, considering you know, those other issues. I think 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:54.440 that's a huge strength for the board. It's an extraordinarily 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:58.159 principal set of leaders UM and they really you know, 0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:01.520 want to focus on doing good for the users UM 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:05.000 of Metas products, but also wider society. It's not just 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:07.439 about the users of Facebook and Instagram, because we know 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:09.960 that those platforms and you know, the billions of people 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:12.760 who use them also have a deep, deep impact on 0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:16.480 broader society and and the world we all live in. Well, 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:20.919 then let's let's talk a little bit about the process, 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:23.520 and can you talk a bit about how the board 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:28.360 decides which cases to consider. I assume that they receive 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:33.000 far more than they actually go through. Yeah, So I 0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:36.640 mean since we started accepting cases towards the end of 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:41.640 twenty we've now received over a million user appeals users 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:46.320 of Facebook and Instagram. UM. That's the primary route by 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:49.359 which appeals come to the board. Meta can also refer 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:51.919 questions to the board, but we've naturally wanted to focus 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:54.199 as much as possible on hearing the appeals that are 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:56.560 coming up from the users of those platforms. So we've 0:20:56.600 --> 0:21:00.600 taken a lot more from from users in case us UM. 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:03.760 The way we sift through that avalanche of UM you know, 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:08.280 incoming appeals UM, some of it is based on how 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:12.359 we UM you know, categorize UM those appeals that are 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:15.639 coming in. So we have systems and you know processes 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:18.840 that are designed to sift us down to a smaller number, 0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:21.560 which is still quite large, which then people are you 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:23.719 know going through you know, in in a lot of detail. 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:26.720 So the big criteria we use as those cases are 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:30.560 coming in are all these cases that we think have 0:21:30.680 --> 0:21:34.959 the potential to impact a lot of users of UM 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:38.199 of metas platforms. We obviously want to take on UM, 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:41.040 you know, cases with the limited resources of the board 0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:43.200 which have the biggest impact for people. So we're looking 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:45.280 at things that have the potential to impact thousands or 0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:48.200 millions of people around the world. We're looking for things 0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:53.240 that raise important questions about METAS policies. So you might 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:55.000 have a single case. It might you know, be something 0:21:55.040 --> 0:21:57.720 about COVID misinformation in France, or it might be something 0:21:57.720 --> 0:21:59.879 about you know, UM, you know, hate speech you know 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:04.240 in UH in India that might raise big questions more 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:07.520 generally about the policies and the rules and how they're 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:10.960 enforced on METAS platforms. The other one is, um, is 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:13.240 this something that's going to have a big impact on 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:16.760 freedom of expression and does it raise big questions about 0:22:16.760 --> 0:22:21.000 public discourse online? So UM with each of those cases, 0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:24.000 really we're looking for these emblematic cases, things that represent 0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:28.480 something much much larger. We aren't really designed, and we've 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:32.159 never conceived ourselves as a sort of general customer service 0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:35.280 type of infrastructure. With twenty board members and you know, 0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:38.080 about fifty staff, there's no way we could possibly UM 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:41.160 here every single one of those million plus appeals. UM. 0:22:41.200 --> 0:22:43.359 It just wouldn't be sustainable. But what we can do 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:46.080 is pick up UM, you know, a set of cases 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:49.560 every year which are then having a much wider area 0:22:49.640 --> 0:22:52.400 of impact on the company, and that ultimately will then 0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:55.879 see the impact on in um potentially millions of of 0:22:55.960 --> 0:22:58.280 other you know, situations that are playing out every day 0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:01.399 on Facebook and Instagram. So it's like it's like setting 0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:04.680 precedent almost where you can say, all right, we take 0:23:04.720 --> 0:23:08.359 this one case which is very specific here, but we 0:23:08.400 --> 0:23:14.800 can generalize the decision whether we uphold or overturned whatever 0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:20.040 Facebook's action was, and that in turn sets the precedent 0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:24.760 where similar cases that follow this should go along the 0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:27.840 same general pathway. I see the real value of that, 0:23:28.000 --> 0:23:31.240 especially again, like talking about a company as large as 0:23:31.280 --> 0:23:34.679 as Meta is UM. I mean, everyone knows, there's just 0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:39.440 it's impossible for that company to monitor everything that's posted. 0:23:39.480 --> 0:23:42.760 It's just that's not practical at all. But being able 0:23:42.760 --> 0:23:46.760 to set these rules and be able to say, yes, this, 0:23:46.760 --> 0:23:51.639 this is a valid application of your policy, and to 0:23:52.400 --> 0:23:54.439 UH to send that message to the company so that 0:23:54.440 --> 0:23:57.639 it can continue to do that and UH and in 0:23:57.720 --> 0:24:00.959 the knowledge that it's doing the right thing according to 0:24:01.000 --> 0:24:04.040 the rules that's set up or as is the case, 0:24:04.080 --> 0:24:07.080 I think, I think more than I think more often 0:24:07.119 --> 0:24:09.520 than not, in the cases that have been heard. We've 0:24:09.560 --> 0:24:13.480 actually seen an overturning of Facebook's decision where it's really 0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:16.439 seeing the message of you don't you don't have this 0:24:16.600 --> 0:24:19.199 right on this one. That's right, you need to re 0:24:19.320 --> 0:24:22.640 examine that's right. I mean, you know, well, well more 0:24:22.680 --> 0:24:24.640 than half of the cases we've taken on, we've we've 0:24:24.720 --> 0:24:28.639 ended up overturning the company. Um. And I think in 0:24:28.680 --> 0:24:32.160 the recommendations, um, you know, going back to that, well 0:24:32.240 --> 0:24:34.840 more than half of the recommendations we've given to the company, 0:24:34.840 --> 0:24:37.760 they've agreed to those recommendations and they've committed to doing 0:24:37.760 --> 0:24:40.239 them or they've already um, you know, implemented them. And 0:24:40.280 --> 0:24:43.200 I think, um, that that is a powerful sign that 0:24:43.280 --> 0:24:45.199 the board is working, that we are starting to have 0:24:45.200 --> 0:24:48.360 an impact on those bigger issues. UM. When we talk 0:24:48.440 --> 0:24:52.359 about cases, people often gravitate naturally to the part where 0:24:52.359 --> 0:24:55.360 we overturned the company, um, or we we upheld them 0:24:55.600 --> 0:24:58.640 the binding aspect of the decision itself on a specific 0:24:58.640 --> 0:25:02.160 bit of content. I think lot of the really interesting 0:25:02.320 --> 0:25:05.400 impactful work of the board comes in terms of our recommendations. 0:25:05.480 --> 0:25:09.400 So there's more than a hundred detailed pieces of guidance 0:25:09.400 --> 0:25:12.080 that we've given to the company. Because that's where um, 0:25:12.280 --> 0:25:15.679 you have the chance to shape those broader standards and 0:25:15.680 --> 0:25:19.919 how they're enforced to really deliver a lot of very detailed, 0:25:20.080 --> 0:25:23.080 practical guidance to the company, which of course is a recommendation. 0:25:23.160 --> 0:25:25.800 They don't have to follow it, but they do have to, um, 0:25:25.840 --> 0:25:28.359 you know, commit to studying it, you know, um, you 0:25:28.400 --> 0:25:32.120 know for real, and and to communicate transparently, um, what 0:25:32.160 --> 0:25:34.400 they're going to do with those recommendations we've given to them, 0:25:34.440 --> 0:25:36.119 and the company has been pretty good about doing that 0:25:36.200 --> 0:25:40.200 up till now. Well and and again to think back 0:25:40.240 --> 0:25:45.000 on just the way tech companies grow from my perspective, generally, 0:25:45.200 --> 0:25:49.040 I see uh kind of a probably a seventy thirty 0:25:49.160 --> 0:25:54.119 split of engineers really pushing an idea which ends up 0:25:54.160 --> 0:25:59.080 blossoming and perhaps even going to to the beloved unicorn status, 0:25:59.560 --> 0:26:02.240 and then maybe marketing which is really pushing the high 0:26:02.240 --> 0:26:05.280 bug thing. But but you know, that's that that the 0:26:05.359 --> 0:26:07.760 whole process, you know, it's all about growth, growth, growth, 0:26:08.320 --> 0:26:11.520 and you eventually hit a point where you have grown 0:26:11.600 --> 0:26:15.080 larger than what you are easily able to manage, whether 0:26:15.119 --> 0:26:17.920 it's because you've expanded into other markets, like just going 0:26:17.960 --> 0:26:21.280 into Europe and the g d p R considerations you 0:26:21.280 --> 0:26:23.679 have to have, Like these are all things that I 0:26:23.720 --> 0:26:25.680 think a lot of people just don't take into account 0:26:25.720 --> 0:26:30.280 early on. And so I definitely see that that value 0:26:30.280 --> 0:26:33.920 coming in again because reaching out and creating this this 0:26:34.080 --> 0:26:37.680 organization where you have representatives from all over the world. 0:26:37.760 --> 0:26:39.800 I mean, I know that a lot of people have 0:26:39.880 --> 0:26:42.119 harped on the fact that I think the United States 0:26:42.119 --> 0:26:46.159 has the most number of representatives on the board as 0:26:46.200 --> 0:26:49.000 it currently stands, but it the board is made up 0:26:49.000 --> 0:26:52.960 of people from all over right, that's right. Absolutely. I 0:26:53.000 --> 0:26:56.159 think about one quarter of our board currently, UM, you 0:26:56.160 --> 0:26:59.240 know comes from the United States. UM. You know, I 0:26:59.280 --> 0:27:02.280 think that reflects partly you know, global inequities and the 0:27:02.320 --> 0:27:06.320 fact that you just have a disproportionate number of you know, 0:27:06.440 --> 0:27:10.800 experts and institutions that generate expertise, UM, which are located 0:27:10.800 --> 0:27:13.080 in the West. UM. But every member of the board 0:27:13.119 --> 0:27:16.600 I think has you know, extraordinary skills and expertise and UM. 0:27:16.640 --> 0:27:18.600 Certainly in the next round of members, we're looking to 0:27:18.600 --> 0:27:23.640 continue expanding the diversity off the board. Well. And that's 0:27:23.680 --> 0:27:28.000 nice too, because again in in tech companies in particular, 0:27:28.480 --> 0:27:30.560 diversity is an issue that we have seen come up 0:27:30.600 --> 0:27:33.399 again and again where we, or rather a lack of 0:27:33.440 --> 0:27:36.680 diversity has frequently been an issue. So making certain that 0:27:36.680 --> 0:27:40.840 that becomes UH and a priority is really refreshing to 0:27:40.920 --> 0:27:44.520 be able to break free of that very narrow view 0:27:44.520 --> 0:27:47.199 of the world that some companies can develop due to 0:27:47.400 --> 0:27:52.720 a just a lack of perspectives. It's not consciously ignoring things, 0:27:52.800 --> 0:27:57.840 but just because of you know, the actual individual backgrounds. UM. 0:27:58.240 --> 0:28:01.000 I wanted to talk also about actually the process of 0:28:01.600 --> 0:28:06.200 considering a case, like what is how does the board 0:28:06.240 --> 0:28:09.960 do that? As I understand it, there they have a 0:28:10.520 --> 0:28:14.880 focus group essentially that looks at a case in great scrutiny. 0:28:15.280 --> 0:28:17.720 That's right. So when a case comes into the board, 0:28:18.040 --> 0:28:21.760 we convene a panel and it's five members UM. The 0:28:21.840 --> 0:28:25.600 membership of these panels is regularly rotating UM, and you 0:28:25.720 --> 0:28:29.040 have a sort of cross section of expertise in different 0:28:29.040 --> 0:28:32.160 backgrounds represented within those panels. You always have at least 0:28:32.160 --> 0:28:34.760 one member of the panel who's coming from the region 0:28:35.040 --> 0:28:37.840 where that content you know is UM you know coming 0:28:37.840 --> 0:28:42.960 from or or implicates, and that panel takes the initial 0:28:43.600 --> 0:28:46.600 UM you know, review of the case. They spend a 0:28:46.680 --> 0:28:49.800 decent amount of time studying these things in depth and 0:28:49.840 --> 0:28:53.480 trying to reach a sort of provisional decision. The decision 0:28:53.840 --> 0:28:56.000 that they come up with on a case then goes 0:28:56.040 --> 0:28:58.720 before the entire board, So that's another you know, sort 0:28:58.720 --> 0:29:00.880 of check within the board to ensure that we are 0:29:00.960 --> 0:29:03.400 really studying these things with a you know, three sixty 0:29:03.400 --> 0:29:08.400 degree perspective. Um. Every decision is then voted on by 0:29:08.400 --> 0:29:11.080 the entire board, and decisions have to you know, receive 0:29:11.120 --> 0:29:13.040 a majority of sport from the board, otherwise they can 0:29:13.080 --> 0:29:14.800 be sent back and you know, we can convene a 0:29:14.800 --> 0:29:17.280 new panel to look at these things. But I think 0:29:17.320 --> 0:29:20.400 another very important part of this process, which I'll call 0:29:20.440 --> 0:29:24.280 out is the public comment process. So unusually, you know, 0:29:24.320 --> 0:29:26.560 I think for for an entity you know, that's been 0:29:26.560 --> 0:29:29.200 empowered to take on this role, we we also want 0:29:29.280 --> 0:29:32.680 to ensure that we aren't just limiting our expertise to ourselves. 0:29:32.800 --> 0:29:35.520 So we do, you know, obviously provide independent oversight of 0:29:35.520 --> 0:29:37.760 the company. There are many many more points of view 0:29:37.800 --> 0:29:40.760 though from the world that we thought it was important 0:29:40.800 --> 0:29:43.760 to reflect in the decision making process. So with every 0:29:43.800 --> 0:29:47.160 case and every um you know, policy, um, you know 0:29:47.200 --> 0:29:49.880 that we're we're working to review, we are going out 0:29:50.000 --> 0:29:55.360 to civil society UM, two academics UM too, regular users 0:29:55.480 --> 0:29:57.720 of these platforms and saying, if you have a point 0:29:57.760 --> 0:29:59.640 of view, share it with us. UM. So we have 0:29:59.720 --> 0:30:02.960 this process called the public comment process, and we get 0:30:03.160 --> 0:30:06.800 really valuable comments thus submitted by people all over the world. UM. 0:30:06.840 --> 0:30:09.239 You know cases from the Middle East. UM. You know, 0:30:09.280 --> 0:30:13.000 we've received you know, really really valuable input from grassroots 0:30:13.040 --> 0:30:17.280 you know organizations, UM, from countries all over the region. UM. 0:30:17.880 --> 0:30:20.920 When we have the big Trump case looking at whether 0:30:21.000 --> 0:30:24.719 President Trump's access to Facebook and Instagram should be restored, 0:30:24.880 --> 0:30:27.160 we had over nine thousand comments, you know, delivered from 0:30:27.200 --> 0:30:29.320 around the world. So we had you know, everyone from 0:30:29.520 --> 0:30:32.440 you know, members of the public, you know, to people 0:30:32.440 --> 0:30:34.800 who are in the U. S. Congress are submitting very 0:30:34.880 --> 0:30:38.240 detailed guidance and what they thought were the implications on 0:30:38.320 --> 0:30:41.720 free speech, UM and human rights. So I think the 0:30:41.800 --> 0:30:45.280 board has UM, you know, a process that's designed to 0:30:45.320 --> 0:30:47.800 reflect our own expertise and to you know, bring in 0:30:47.800 --> 0:30:50.600 that diversity internally, but we also think about the diversity 0:30:50.640 --> 0:30:53.280 in terms of the external world. We've got a bit 0:30:53.320 --> 0:30:56.200 more to talk about with the Facebook Oversight Board after 0:30:56.240 --> 0:31:06.440 the following break. One of the big problems Meta had 0:31:06.760 --> 0:31:09.120 was that it failed to have a policy in place 0:31:09.200 --> 0:31:13.400 that would allow sort of an indefinite ban, and that 0:31:13.720 --> 0:31:16.480 really what Meta needed to do was either set a 0:31:16.520 --> 0:31:18.920 firm limit on what the band was or to just 0:31:19.000 --> 0:31:22.240 go ahead and call it a lifelong ban. But it 0:31:22.280 --> 0:31:27.840 could not exist in this sort of nebulous, vague banning condition. 0:31:28.320 --> 0:31:30.680 And I remember when that came out, I saw a 0:31:30.680 --> 0:31:33.680 lot of knee jerk reactions all across the board, like 0:31:34.000 --> 0:31:38.000 in various ways, but to me, it was really nailing 0:31:38.040 --> 0:31:41.040 home for the first time in my experience what the 0:31:41.080 --> 0:31:44.520 oversight board was doing in terms of metas policies, and 0:31:44.640 --> 0:31:49.000 that it's saying, there are cases that are falling outside 0:31:49.280 --> 0:31:52.920 of your of your rules, and you have to you 0:31:53.000 --> 0:31:56.600 have to craft the rules to cover these cases. Otherwise 0:31:57.040 --> 0:31:59.400 there's no way to say whether it's fair or not 0:31:59.520 --> 0:32:02.760 you don't cover it. That's exactly right. There was a 0:32:02.840 --> 0:32:05.480 very important principle at stake here, right, which is that 0:32:05.560 --> 0:32:09.880 the rules should apply to everyone, and everyone also includes 0:32:09.920 --> 0:32:13.360 the company. So the rules exist to UM you know, 0:32:13.400 --> 0:32:15.760 govern the way that users get to use those platforms, 0:32:15.840 --> 0:32:19.000 but they also govern the way Meta should be serving 0:32:19.160 --> 0:32:21.719 their users. UM so that you know the fact that 0:32:21.720 --> 0:32:26.239 the company didn't have clear, transparent, defined standards on how 0:32:26.280 --> 0:32:28.920 to navigate innssy like this. That was a huge gap 0:32:29.480 --> 0:32:31.960 in UM you know, the systems that are designed to 0:32:32.000 --> 0:32:35.400 serve their users and UM you know. Ultimately, it pushed 0:32:35.400 --> 0:32:37.400 the company to go and rewrite those rules and to 0:32:37.480 --> 0:32:40.400 create new UM you know, processes and standards, which I 0:32:40.440 --> 0:32:43.960 think will serve them much better in future situations where 0:32:43.960 --> 0:32:47.240 they have to navigate these very very thorny issues. You know, Ultimately, 0:32:47.240 --> 0:32:50.160 if you don't write down the rules and everyone can't 0:32:50.200 --> 0:32:52.760 see them and you know, see them transparently for what 0:32:52.800 --> 0:32:55.040 they are, it makes it much more likely that a 0:32:55.120 --> 0:32:57.720 big company like Meta is going to be able to 0:32:57.720 --> 0:33:00.240 get away with not treating their users fairly. I do 0:33:00.280 --> 0:33:02.880 think it was an important point to really defend UM 0:33:02.920 --> 0:33:06.160 you know. The board also said that the suspension UM 0:33:06.200 --> 0:33:08.840 you know it was correct, so it was the correct 0:33:08.880 --> 0:33:11.600 move to go and suspend him um you know quickly 0:33:11.680 --> 0:33:15.239 from access to Facebook and Instagram. But despite that, there 0:33:15.320 --> 0:33:17.520 was still you know, bigger you know principles at stake, 0:33:17.560 --> 0:33:19.920 and the company didn't think through the long term consequences 0:33:19.960 --> 0:33:22.920 of how they did it right. Yeah, it makes me 0:33:22.960 --> 0:33:25.160 think and you may not get this reference. Actually, a 0:33:25.200 --> 0:33:27.240 lot of my listeners might not get this reference, but 0:33:27.280 --> 0:33:29.840 it makes me think of of Calvin Ball, which was 0:33:29.880 --> 0:33:32.800 a thing in the comic strip Calvin and Hobbes, and 0:33:32.840 --> 0:33:35.120 it was a game that this little boy named Calvin 0:33:35.160 --> 0:33:38.080 would play where he literally would make up rules as 0:33:38.120 --> 0:33:40.440 the game was being played, and there was no way 0:33:40.440 --> 0:33:43.720 to know how to win the game because he was 0:33:43.760 --> 0:33:46.480 the one making the rules in real time as the 0:33:46.480 --> 0:33:48.800 game's being played out. And I have a feeling that 0:33:48.800 --> 0:33:52.560 that was kind of how we were seeing meta with 0:33:52.640 --> 0:33:56.000 some of these policies too, and that there was obviously 0:33:56.040 --> 0:33:58.959 this huge external pressure on the company to take action. 0:33:59.480 --> 0:34:03.000 Uh and and the company obviously was already in a 0:34:03.080 --> 0:34:06.960 space where they're this external pressure had been building for 0:34:07.080 --> 0:34:09.520 quite some time, particularly here in the United States. I mean, 0:34:09.600 --> 0:34:12.560 Zuckerberg had to appear before the Senate a couple of 0:34:12.560 --> 0:34:16.400 times leading up to this, and so there obviously was 0:34:16.440 --> 0:34:20.239 this call to action. But again, until you have those 0:34:20.280 --> 0:34:27.000 transparent rules that everyone understands and applies to everyone, taking 0:34:27.040 --> 0:34:30.239 action on its own isn't enough. It's it's something that 0:34:30.280 --> 0:34:34.360 could easily be reversed, because if if things swing a 0:34:34.360 --> 0:34:38.839 different way, then the company can stand accused of unfairly 0:34:38.880 --> 0:34:42.440 applying rules to certain people. In fact, we've seen that 0:34:42.560 --> 0:34:46.440 discourse rise as well. Absolutely, I'm going to use that 0:34:46.520 --> 0:34:50.000 Calvin Ball analogy now, Um, I mean that's fantastic. We're 0:34:50.080 --> 0:34:53.960 basically we are designed to be the anti Calvin Ball mechanism. 0:34:54.040 --> 0:34:55.840 We do not think Calvin Ball is a good you 0:34:55.840 --> 0:34:58.640 know game to play when it comes to speech for 0:34:58.680 --> 0:35:02.359 billions of people online, I do confront this narrative all 0:35:02.400 --> 0:35:06.440 the time, which is is the board of distractions somehow 0:35:06.840 --> 0:35:10.600 from regulation? Like is this something that is getting in 0:35:10.640 --> 0:35:13.359 the way of the bigger fix that we need as 0:35:13.360 --> 0:35:17.200 a society. And I just think that's so you know, 0:35:17.280 --> 0:35:20.320 misplaced as a concern, and and simply the evidence doesn't 0:35:20.320 --> 0:35:22.400 you know, back it up. Um. You know, policy makers 0:35:22.400 --> 0:35:24.919 have been looking at these issues for years, and they've 0:35:24.920 --> 0:35:28.480 been moving at an incredibly glacial pace. And part of 0:35:28.480 --> 0:35:29.840 the reason they have been moving at that place, I 0:35:29.880 --> 0:35:32.280 don't think it's necessarily, you know, due to any ill intent. 0:35:32.480 --> 0:35:36.239 It's because these are massive, deeply complex issues, and it 0:35:36.280 --> 0:35:39.319 takes years to align the interests you know, and then 0:35:39.360 --> 0:35:42.080 to you know codify you know, legislation and to you know, 0:35:42.120 --> 0:35:45.680 build a coalition to support that legislation. The board is 0:35:45.760 --> 0:35:48.480 designed to be something that's solved one small part of 0:35:48.520 --> 0:35:51.960 this overall challenge with social media and to move faster. 0:35:52.480 --> 0:35:54.200 So I mean, we've gone ahead and we've built this 0:35:54.239 --> 0:35:58.040 institution which is starting to serve the users of Facebook 0:35:58.040 --> 0:36:00.840 and Instagram and and you know, the communities who are 0:36:00.880 --> 0:36:03.759 impacted by those platforms. Nothing we're doing is getting in 0:36:03.800 --> 0:36:06.960 the way of policymakers also getting stuck in and you know, 0:36:07.040 --> 0:36:09.799 having you know, a broader you know, sweep at the 0:36:10.080 --> 0:36:13.640 systemic and the structural issues that also impact social media. 0:36:13.920 --> 0:36:16.080 So we really don't see ourselves in any way as 0:36:16.080 --> 0:36:18.480 a substitute for you know, all the effort of policy 0:36:18.480 --> 0:36:20.080 makers and all the work that needs to be done. 0:36:20.360 --> 0:36:23.040 We're a compliment. We're a very small compliment, and you know, 0:36:23.440 --> 0:36:25.200 we're looking forward to seeing, you know, what people come 0:36:25.280 --> 0:36:27.440 up with in terms of other proposals to you know, 0:36:27.560 --> 0:36:30.840 improve social media and deliver a healthier social media environment. 0:36:30.920 --> 0:36:33.840 And yet even though the Board is this this small slice, 0:36:34.800 --> 0:36:37.880 because of its global nature, it is I would argue, 0:36:38.840 --> 0:36:43.480 h more well positioned to tackle its particular mission than 0:36:43.560 --> 0:36:48.200 any regional government would be simply because again you're trying 0:36:48.200 --> 0:36:52.560 to legislate something that has a global reach, but you 0:36:52.600 --> 0:36:56.880 don't have global jurisdiction. So you've got these various nations 0:36:56.880 --> 0:37:01.800 around the world all grappling with similar issues. But unless 0:37:01.800 --> 0:37:06.600 there's some sort of broad agreement across the world as 0:37:06.640 --> 0:37:10.040 to you know, how to go about doing this, it's 0:37:10.080 --> 0:37:12.319 just gonna be very messy for a long time. So 0:37:12.320 --> 0:37:14.279 that's another reason I think it does take a long 0:37:14.320 --> 0:37:17.960 time to see things on the regulatory side take shape, 0:37:18.440 --> 0:37:20.440 uh not to mention in places like here in the 0:37:20.520 --> 0:37:24.680 United States, whenever there's a change in administration, there's a 0:37:24.680 --> 0:37:29.640 massive change in the position of regulations. So you can 0:37:29.680 --> 0:37:35.480 have a regulatory body that uh completely changes shape from 0:37:35.480 --> 0:37:39.440 one administration to another, and then any any progress you 0:37:39.480 --> 0:37:42.279 were making on any particular issue might get reset. So 0:37:43.320 --> 0:37:46.200 I think that having something that's at least addressing part 0:37:46.200 --> 0:37:48.000 of it, and a very important part, even if it 0:37:48.080 --> 0:37:53.960 is a small one, is fantastic. It's at least it's encouraging, 0:37:54.360 --> 0:37:57.680 because I think otherwise the narrative tends to be that 0:37:57.760 --> 0:38:01.640 we're kind of stuck in a quagmire waiting for a solution. Too. 0:38:02.400 --> 0:38:05.359 Something that I think everyone recognizes is a problem. Although 0:38:05.400 --> 0:38:09.319 they may disagree what that problem specifically is, they just 0:38:09.320 --> 0:38:12.799 don't recognize that there is a problem. Yeah, I mean 0:38:12.800 --> 0:38:15.440 it's it's interesting, Jonathan. I mean we actually this is 0:38:15.440 --> 0:38:19.359 where there's a real consequence of social media and all 0:38:19.360 --> 0:38:22.160 the years we've lived in the digital era in how 0:38:22.200 --> 0:38:24.960 it impacts are thinking, right, Um, all of our attention 0:38:25.000 --> 0:38:28.280 spans have become way shorter. Um. I learned something interesting 0:38:28.320 --> 0:38:30.640 the other day. The average attention span for a goldfish 0:38:30.719 --> 0:38:33.799 is fifteen seconds, and the average attention span for a 0:38:33.880 --> 0:38:38.479 person today is about nine seconds. Um. So like we 0:38:38.480 --> 0:38:41.120 we literally you know, have these incredibly short attention spans. 0:38:41.160 --> 0:38:44.160 And because of that, everyone's looking for really simple solutions 0:38:44.160 --> 0:38:46.759 to complex problems. And I think of this as the 0:38:46.800 --> 0:38:49.920 sort of buzz feed approach to solving problems. We all 0:38:49.960 --> 0:38:53.080 want this one weird trick to solve content moderation, and 0:38:53.080 --> 0:38:55.520 you're hoping there's there's that one weird trick that will 0:38:55.560 --> 0:38:58.520 you do everything for you And I think the experience 0:38:58.520 --> 0:39:00.520 of the last decade has very clear he shown us 0:39:00.560 --> 0:39:03.359 that's not the case at all. There is no UM 0:39:03.400 --> 0:39:06.480 you know, special piece of regulation. There is no um 0:39:06.520 --> 0:39:09.880 you know, incredibly well crafted institution including the oversight board 0:39:10.000 --> 0:39:12.640 that's going to solve all your problems in their totality, 0:39:12.680 --> 0:39:15.040 and anyone who's claiming that you know, either from government 0:39:15.080 --> 0:39:17.839 or from the tech industry, is just lying. Um. We 0:39:17.880 --> 0:39:20.719 can also bits of that problem and together we add 0:39:20.760 --> 0:39:23.000 up to something that's very, very meaningful, and we'll protect 0:39:23.280 --> 0:39:26.240 users and communities. Um. But we should all be realistic 0:39:26.239 --> 0:39:28.040 about what we can do and recognize the scale of 0:39:28.040 --> 0:39:31.680 the challenge. Very well said. I could not agree more. 0:39:33.040 --> 0:39:37.040 I think it's incredibly beneficial for listeners out there. If 0:39:37.120 --> 0:39:39.680 you if you really want to get an understanding of 0:39:40.040 --> 0:39:44.520 how complex this is is simply go and review one 0:39:44.520 --> 0:39:49.400 of the cases that the board tackled and really read 0:39:49.520 --> 0:39:54.680 up on all the different UH factors about it. Because 0:39:54.719 --> 0:39:58.799 you start to really you get past that knee jerk reaction. Right. 0:39:58.880 --> 0:40:02.640 You might initially you have a feeling of this should 0:40:02.680 --> 0:40:04.680 go this way or this should go that way, But 0:40:04.800 --> 0:40:07.080 as you really dive into it and you start to 0:40:07.160 --> 0:40:11.200 pull back and look at the larger implications, then you 0:40:11.280 --> 0:40:15.560 might start to understand there isn't a simple on off switch. 0:40:15.600 --> 0:40:19.000 The world is not a binary system. We cannot treat 0:40:19.040 --> 0:40:21.759 it that way. We have to We have to take 0:40:21.760 --> 0:40:25.799 into consideration all the complexities, including where there may be 0:40:25.920 --> 0:40:29.920 gaps in policy. And that's why there's this this issue, 0:40:30.040 --> 0:40:34.000 because we can't definitively say this is against the rules 0:40:34.080 --> 0:40:36.279 if there are no rules that govern it. So I 0:40:36.320 --> 0:40:39.879 think that if if people do take that time, which 0:40:40.080 --> 0:40:42.279 obviously with the nine second attention span is going to 0:40:42.280 --> 0:40:45.479 be challenging, but they do take that time, they're they're 0:40:45.480 --> 0:40:49.719 going to gain that greater appreciation because I mean, I'm 0:40:49.800 --> 0:40:53.200 guilty of this too, Like I'll see a story pop 0:40:53.280 --> 0:40:56.640 up and very quickly make a judgment, and it's only 0:40:56.800 --> 0:41:01.279 by resisting that urgent and engaging in critical thinking and 0:41:01.320 --> 0:41:04.239 taking those those further steps that I can get past that. 0:41:04.320 --> 0:41:06.480 And I don't do it all the time. I say 0:41:06.520 --> 0:41:09.600 all the time on the show. The two things I 0:41:09.640 --> 0:41:12.759 advocate for the strongest our compassion and critical thinking. I 0:41:12.760 --> 0:41:15.480 think the two of them together absolutely necessary if you 0:41:15.520 --> 0:41:20.560 want to if you want a better world. But even 0:41:20.640 --> 0:41:23.520 though I advocate strongly for it, I also admit fully 0:41:23.560 --> 0:41:28.280 that I am not I'm not a a a perfect 0:41:28.560 --> 0:41:32.320 steward of that approach. Sometimes I fall victim to it too, 0:41:32.520 --> 0:41:34.959 And I really think that by diving in a little 0:41:35.000 --> 0:41:37.799 further and reading up on these things, people can get 0:41:37.840 --> 0:41:41.920 a greater appreciation for the complexities that are involved. UM. 0:41:42.200 --> 0:41:45.920 I certainly do not envy anyone on the board's position. 0:41:46.400 --> 0:41:52.239 I am fascinated by the process. But I cannot imagine 0:41:53.040 --> 0:41:56.000 really dedicating the kind of time and attention to sometimes 0:41:56.160 --> 0:42:02.000 incredibly emotionally charged situations and determining whether or not a 0:42:02.080 --> 0:42:05.279 company's decision on that matter was in line with its 0:42:05.280 --> 0:42:08.800 policy or not. Absolutely, And this this is the challenge, 0:42:08.880 --> 0:42:11.440 right all the board members are human beings. They're all 0:42:11.480 --> 0:42:13.920 looking at the same headlines. We're all looking at. UM. 0:42:14.000 --> 0:42:18.759 These are issues which can be extraordinarily emotive, and there 0:42:18.880 --> 0:42:22.279 is always, you know, an urge today for people to 0:42:22.320 --> 0:42:24.880 make those snap decisions about these things. And the board 0:42:24.920 --> 0:42:28.640 has been designed not just in the extraordinarily impressive people 0:42:28.680 --> 0:42:30.480 who have been added to the board, but in the 0:42:30.520 --> 0:42:33.600 mechanisms that go into making that institution. It's been designs 0:42:33.680 --> 0:42:36.120 that we don't make those snap decisions. Um. You know, 0:42:36.160 --> 0:42:40.160 we provide that thoughtful, you know, measured review of the 0:42:40.200 --> 0:42:43.480 decisions that Meta has made. They have a responsibility to 0:42:43.520 --> 0:42:45.799 act first and to act fast on a lot of 0:42:45.840 --> 0:42:47.680 these issues. But then we're going to come in and 0:42:47.680 --> 0:42:50.120 take a closer look and say, have you thought about this? 0:42:50.320 --> 0:42:52.840 You know, implication for you your users. They used to 0:42:52.840 --> 0:42:56.840 be that slogan which became very popularized and then maligned 0:42:57.080 --> 0:43:00.320 from Facebook, move fast and break things. And I always 0:43:00.320 --> 0:43:02.880 tell my team, half jokingly, only half joking, Lee, that 0:43:02.960 --> 0:43:05.400 all slogan, if that was one, is moved thoughtfully and 0:43:05.400 --> 0:43:07.840 defend human rights, because that's a much better way of 0:43:07.880 --> 0:43:11.239 actually going about doing that well. And again it's one 0:43:11.280 --> 0:43:13.600 of those things where you go from the technical aspect 0:43:13.640 --> 0:43:17.640 of let's make something that's really cool to the application 0:43:17.719 --> 0:43:20.560 aspect of how does this interact with the real world. 0:43:21.320 --> 0:43:23.800 I'd like to wrap this up by sort of asking 0:43:24.200 --> 0:43:26.960 are there are there plans? Like really, right now the 0:43:26.960 --> 0:43:32.040 oversight board is focused primarily upon uh content moderation policies. 0:43:32.239 --> 0:43:35.440 Are their plans for that to expand beyond Facebook's content 0:43:35.480 --> 0:43:37.560 moderation or is that just going to be the primary 0:43:37.560 --> 0:43:40.000 focus of the board from here on out. Yeah, you 0:43:40.040 --> 0:43:43.200 made a very important point in Jonathan, which was about how, um, 0:43:43.239 --> 0:43:45.839 you know, people can lose focus as they scale, and 0:43:45.880 --> 0:43:48.640 so we think of ourselves in many ways as an organization, 0:43:48.880 --> 0:43:51.520 as a startup. We're a very small, you know group 0:43:51.719 --> 0:43:54.640 taking on a very big, you know mission. We've evolved 0:43:54.719 --> 0:43:58.080 enormously over the last couple of years to navigate through 0:43:58.280 --> 0:44:02.040 the sort of organizational and strategic challenges as an organization. 0:44:02.280 --> 0:44:04.080 We think the right thing to do is to stay focused. 0:44:04.160 --> 0:44:07.920 Right now, Meta is a huge challenge. Just getting our 0:44:08.040 --> 0:44:11.040 arms around the mission of the board today is something 0:44:11.080 --> 0:44:13.080 that you know, takes up an enormous amount of work, 0:44:13.200 --> 0:44:16.200 and we want to make sure that we're delivering the 0:44:16.320 --> 0:44:19.200 maximum impact in terms of that original mission before we 0:44:19.239 --> 0:44:21.640 look to expand further. Having said that, you know, we 0:44:21.680 --> 0:44:24.840 absolutely recognize that this is a shared challenge across the industry. 0:44:25.040 --> 0:44:27.520 All the problems that META is dealing with our problems 0:44:27.560 --> 0:44:30.239 that manifest in different ways for other platforms. I mean, 0:44:30.239 --> 0:44:32.799 look at Spotify or Netflix over the last few months 0:44:32.800 --> 0:44:35.759 and all the various controversies and and problems that they've 0:44:35.760 --> 0:44:38.799 they've been experiencing. So UM For now, the way we 0:44:38.840 --> 0:44:41.680 think about it is focused on getting that core mission done, 0:44:42.239 --> 0:44:44.759 share as many of our learnings UM as widely and 0:44:44.760 --> 0:44:46.719 as transparently as possible in a way that can be 0:44:46.760 --> 0:44:48.920 helpful to other companies and down the road, you know, 0:44:48.920 --> 0:44:50.920 over the next you know, coming years, um, I think 0:44:50.960 --> 0:44:52.920 we'll be looking to explore whether there's something else we 0:44:52.960 --> 0:44:56.160 can deliver for companies. And you know, as the Board 0:44:56.200 --> 0:44:59.680 evolves itself and we look to expand the things that 0:44:59.719 --> 0:45:02.320 we're looking at within Facebook and Instagram, they may be 0:45:02.400 --> 0:45:04.600 other things that you know, then coming to focus for 0:45:04.640 --> 0:45:06.600 the rest of the industry and they say, hey, actually, 0:45:06.600 --> 0:45:08.600 maybe the Oversight Board can be helpful for us as 0:45:08.600 --> 0:45:13.399 we develop our plans. Uh. Fascinating. Dex. Thank you so 0:45:13.520 --> 0:45:17.160 much for joining the show and giving us more information 0:45:17.200 --> 0:45:20.160 about the Oversight Board. I have a much greater appreciation 0:45:20.640 --> 0:45:23.880 for what it does now than I did before we 0:45:23.920 --> 0:45:28.000 even started chatting. It was really informative and educational. I 0:45:28.040 --> 0:45:31.840 hope my listeners enjoyed it as well. Great to be here, Jonathan. 0:45:32.880 --> 0:45:35.560 Thanks again to Dex for joining the show. It was 0:45:35.600 --> 0:45:38.680 really interesting to hear about the board's mission directly from 0:45:38.719 --> 0:45:42.600 someone who works with the organization, and it gave me 0:45:42.640 --> 0:45:46.280 a greater appreciation for the scope of the board's job 0:45:46.640 --> 0:45:49.719 as well as the potential impact of its decisions. And 0:45:49.760 --> 0:45:52.440 it really does highlight the necessity to seek out a 0:45:52.480 --> 0:45:57.160 diverse array of perspectives as companies scale up in many ways, 0:45:57.239 --> 0:46:00.319 I totally understand how Facebook could find itself in such 0:46:00.360 --> 0:46:03.680 a complex situation that it required the creation of an 0:46:03.680 --> 0:46:08.040 external entity. I mean, come on, let's let's really be 0:46:08.160 --> 0:46:12.120 real here, cards on the table. Facebook evolved out of 0:46:12.160 --> 0:46:15.400 a tool that was meant to allow male Harvard students 0:46:15.400 --> 0:46:19.640 to rate the attractiveness of female Harvard students. That's why 0:46:19.640 --> 0:46:23.439 the predecessor to Facebook was all about. So that wasn't 0:46:23.480 --> 0:46:28.520 exactly aiming to become a nexus of global communications. And 0:46:28.600 --> 0:46:33.359 the process of growth and scaling and expansion is one 0:46:33.400 --> 0:46:36.920 that happened so quickly that it's not a surprise to 0:46:37.000 --> 0:46:40.200 me that people of the company didn't necessarily realize they 0:46:40.280 --> 0:46:44.120 needed a robust set of policies until problems began to 0:46:44.160 --> 0:46:47.800 pop up. And in many ways, Facebook's path could serve 0:46:47.880 --> 0:46:51.319 as a lesson to other platforms, either to create their 0:46:51.360 --> 0:46:55.640 own independent oversight boards or to incorporate departments that are 0:46:55.719 --> 0:46:59.600 dedicated to the formation and execution of policies and to 0:47:00.000 --> 0:47:04.160 really staff that with a diverse group of perspectives so 0:47:04.200 --> 0:47:07.239 that you can best serve your users. Right, if your 0:47:07.320 --> 0:47:10.080 users are all over the world, then you darn well 0:47:10.200 --> 0:47:13.759 need to have that diversity of perspective in order to 0:47:14.160 --> 0:47:17.560 serve them properly. And I'm sure there will be cases 0:47:18.120 --> 0:47:20.600 where the Oversight Board will make a decision that I 0:47:20.600 --> 0:47:23.920 will have trouble understanding. Uh, there may well be cases 0:47:24.080 --> 0:47:27.759 where I have a fundamental disagreement with the board's conclusion. 0:47:28.080 --> 0:47:31.399 But at the same time I have to account for 0:47:31.400 --> 0:47:35.480 several facts. Namely, while I feel strongly about human rights issues, 0:47:35.920 --> 0:47:39.160 I am by no means an expert, right, I do 0:47:39.280 --> 0:47:42.279 not spend the same amount of time and energy researching 0:47:42.320 --> 0:47:45.400 these cases, nor do I have the background in human 0:47:45.480 --> 0:47:48.879 rights and digital rights that the board members have, And 0:47:48.960 --> 0:47:52.000 the conclusion that the Board comes to could be nested 0:47:52.040 --> 0:47:54.719 in a much deeper problem, one that where they will 0:47:54.760 --> 0:47:58.720 Facebook itself lacks the framework to issue a clear decision 0:47:58.760 --> 0:48:01.560 on the matter, and it might be that the Board 0:48:01.600 --> 0:48:04.920 comes to its decision not because of specific matters with 0:48:04.960 --> 0:48:08.799 the case, but because there are no actual rules that 0:48:09.280 --> 0:48:13.359 govern what Facebook does. And therefore, you know, if there 0:48:13.360 --> 0:48:16.160 are no rules that say Facebook can do this, that's 0:48:16.200 --> 0:48:20.000 a problem. As dex indicated, reality is a complicated and 0:48:20.120 --> 0:48:23.640 messy matter. In the end, I am glad there's an 0:48:23.640 --> 0:48:27.440 independent group holding Facebook accountable, and one that can compel 0:48:27.560 --> 0:48:33.279 Facebook to reverse decisions that on close examination do not 0:48:33.480 --> 0:48:37.560 appear to follow with Facebook's stated rules and goals. I 0:48:37.640 --> 0:48:40.799 do hope to see a more broad application of those 0:48:40.800 --> 0:48:45.040 principles across the web and the tech industry in general. Um, 0:48:45.080 --> 0:48:50.000 that kind of consistency is really important. And again I 0:48:50.080 --> 0:48:53.920 don't anticipate agreeing with every single one of those decisions, 0:48:53.920 --> 0:48:57.360 but at least I can be confident that the decisions 0:48:57.360 --> 0:49:02.680 were made by people who were taking incredible care and 0:49:02.800 --> 0:49:07.040 consideration when judging the matter. Uh, and not just be 0:49:07.239 --> 0:49:10.840 something where you know, it's a moderator who's under intense 0:49:10.880 --> 0:49:14.600 pressure to look through as many comments or or posts 0:49:14.680 --> 0:49:17.560 as they possibly can, and they're just hitting you know, 0:49:18.239 --> 0:49:22.000 delete or or they're leaving alone one after the other 0:49:22.040 --> 0:49:25.920 in order to get through it an incredible backlog, right, Like, 0:49:26.800 --> 0:49:29.080 my heart really goes out to moderators too. We've heard 0:49:29.120 --> 0:49:35.040 some terrible stories about the emotional impact that moderating can 0:49:35.080 --> 0:49:37.879 have on folks who have to go through all these 0:49:37.920 --> 0:49:42.160 different types of posts on Facebook that get reported. Anyway, 0:49:42.200 --> 0:49:45.200 that wraps up this episode. If you have suggestions for 0:49:45.239 --> 0:49:48.239 people I should have on the show or topics I 0:49:48.239 --> 0:49:50.480 should cover, please reach out to me. The best way 0:49:50.520 --> 0:49:52.920 to do that is on Twitter. The handle for the 0:49:52.960 --> 0:49:56.480 show is text Stuff hs W and I'll talk to 0:49:56.480 --> 0:50:05.319 you again really soon. Yeah. Text Stuff is an I 0:50:05.440 --> 0:50:08.960 heart Radio production. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, 0:50:09.280 --> 0:50:12.480 visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 0:50:12.560 --> 0:50:14.080 you listen to your favorite shows.