1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio, Hello, and Happy Friday. Our first 3 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:19,760 Speaker 1: episode this week was about the public universal friend. I 4 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:21,959 Speaker 1: said this, um in different words at the top of 5 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: the episode, but uh, this is not how I would 6 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: talk about the trans and non binary people in my 7 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: life or in more recent history. Generally, though, those folks 8 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: also would not describe their gender as having been died 9 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: and reincarnated as a genderlest divine spirit. Um. I just 10 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 1: want to make that clear, like it don't if you 11 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: go and you use that episode as an excuse to 12 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: disrespect a trans person's name and pronouns, I'm kicking you 13 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: out of the stuff you missed in History Class. Club. 14 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: I didn't know there was a club. Um, I just 15 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: made it up. I'm making up a club so I 16 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: can kick you out of it. You can excommunicate them, 17 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 1: as was so central to so many parts of this story. Yeah, 18 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: it's it's an interesting thing. I mean, we we talk 19 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: about this all the time, and you did talk about 20 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: it at length at the beginning of the episode. You know, 21 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: we can't always apply modern language to historical people because 22 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 1: we don't know right if that's what they would have 23 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: chosen for themselves or not. Yeah. Um, And this is 24 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:29,759 Speaker 1: a uniquely difficult scenario because it is kind of outside 25 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:36,479 Speaker 1: the scope of just about anything that has evolved linguistically. Yeah, 26 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: even if you are up on the very latest evolutions 27 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: of how language around gender and identity have evolved. Yeah, yeah, 28 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: I I am basically taking at face value, uh, that 29 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: that the friends sincerely held belief was having died and 30 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: been reborn. And I am not for example, like you 31 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,279 Speaker 1: could speculate that that that was something that the friend 32 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: did uh to like deal with gender dysphoria, um, and 33 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: so like create a situation where they were able to 34 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: live in a way that accommodated their their own perceived gender. Um. 35 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: But like that's so speculative. We don't have any writing 36 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: on like the the early years of Jemima Wilkinson and 37 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: like any of that. Um. Also, though we did not 38 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: get into it in as much detail in the episode, 39 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 1: but a lot of the criticism and the derision that 40 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:42,959 Speaker 1: the friend faced is a hundred percent parallel to like 41 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: the invasive questions and discrimination that trans and non binary 42 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 1: people face today in terms of like people being so 43 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: focused on like what what underwear does the friend have 44 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,639 Speaker 1: on what is underneath these clothes? Is there some weird 45 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 1: sex thing happening? Like, Uh, you could move the whole 46 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:10,399 Speaker 1: story a couple hundred years into the future, UM, when 47 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: different language existed to describe things about gender, and that 48 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: might read very differently, but like, you can definitely see 49 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: so many parallels in the friends story, UM, and in 50 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,839 Speaker 1: the stories of our the lives of trans and non 51 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: binary people living today. Also, Uh, my spouse grew up 52 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: in this part of western New York. And so when 53 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: we sat down to dinner last night, I said, Patrick, 54 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: did you learn about the part of of New York 55 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: history where there was a dispute between New York and 56 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: Massachusetts about whether the land was in New York or Massachusetts? 57 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: And he said that would have been in fourth grade 58 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: New York History. And I don't remember anything about it. Um. 59 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: By comparison the UM when I was kind of doing 60 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: the thing that I know you also do sometimes where 61 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: I kind of just gave him the download of everything 62 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: we had been I had been researching in the episode 63 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: UM and and I was talking about the friend getting 64 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:18,159 Speaker 1: ready to establish this settlement in western New York. Patrick 65 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: was like, when was this? And I was like right 66 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: after the Revolutionary War, and he went, oh no, because 67 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 1: he immediately knew the history of like the oppression of 68 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: indigenous peoples and that whole Scorched Earth military campaign. Like 69 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: he grew up right down the road from a reservation 70 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 1: in New York and like that, like that was part 71 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: of his um day to day life experience more so 72 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: than this whole weird and I found it incredibly convoluted 73 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: and confusing border dispute between New York and Massachusetts. Yeah, 74 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: but also the other thing in this piece of history 75 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 1: that UM I had kind of like my pedestrian reaction was, oh, no, 76 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: we're gonna go found our own communal society. Just we've 77 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: done so many episodes about attempts at communal living that 78 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: always fall apart. And once that property like exploded in value, Yeah, 79 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: there's there's no way people weren't going to be like, great, 80 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 1: we're rich, let's get out of here. Yeah. And like 81 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: with the caveat of like the indigenous people already living there, 82 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: and like I wish the only account I could find 83 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 1: where uh Indigenous people specifically referred to who was probably 84 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: the friend, because they talked about a white woman giving 85 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: Um an address at a treaty negotiation. Um. Like even 86 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: that was filtered through white observers um and like that 87 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: particular account did not seem like they were already familiar 88 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: with a friend like well unclear, but anyway, like, aside 89 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: from like that aspect of whole history of this, it 90 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,679 Speaker 1: does seem like the community was pretty successful in terms 91 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: of being able to get crops established and get a 92 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 1: gristmill and a sawmill and like all of this stuff. 93 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: They seem to have been really productive, um and productive 94 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:18,919 Speaker 1: and successful financially enough that they were able to keep 95 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 1: like maintaining the poorest members of the society for the 96 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: whole rest of their lives. UM. I did note when 97 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: I went to confirm that the friend's house is still 98 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: on the UH National Register of Historic Places currently, the 99 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: approval for the houses listing on the National Register of 100 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: Historic Places notes it's local historical significance, but not like 101 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 1: a statewide or national historical significance. UM. And I kind 102 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 1: of wonder whether, like the scope of lgbt Q history 103 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: and the importance of figures who you could describe as 104 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 1: queer in some way in history like Gaus, that becomes 105 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: increasingly important. Um. Whether the perception of the Friends importance 106 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:10,239 Speaker 1: will move beyond just local Finger Lakes, New York into 107 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 1: a more national importance. We shall see. That's speculation on 108 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: my part. Our second episode this week was about the 109 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: one Uprising, sometimes called what Tyler's Rebellion, sometimes called the 110 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: Peasants Revolt. Lots of different names for that one, um, 111 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: and I did not pick that in response to anything 112 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,239 Speaker 1: happening in the world. As I said, it was something 113 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: that was like written a couple of weeks back in 114 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: the middle of May. But I can understand if people 115 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: listen to it and see parallels in terms of the 116 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: violence and unrest that has been happening in the United 117 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: States over the last couple of weeks. And since this 118 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: episode is coming out, um, six entire days after I 119 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: said that, who knows what's going to be happening at 120 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,679 Speaker 1: that point. Uh. Yeah, We've been very shruggy and frank 121 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: about this, like, we don't know. It's hard to select topics. 122 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: It's hard to deal with topics we've already selected that 123 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: we now are producing. It's a weird thing. Um, I 124 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: have a question for you about this. Yes, did you, 125 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: while working on this episode think a lot about fight 126 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: Club or is that just me. I didn't, but now 127 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: that you mention it, because Project Mayhem in Fight Club 128 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: was all about a similar erasure of records and identity 129 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: related to financial records in the hopes of a significant 130 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: shift in how society and government in the world works. Yeah, no, 131 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 1: I that now that you mention it. Uh yeah, I 132 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 1: wonder if Chuck Polinick was informed by these events as 133 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,319 Speaker 1: he was writing that. Maybe you also, Um, you also 134 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: just asked me if I knew anything about a Star 135 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: Wars character with a similar name, which has become a 136 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: theme on the show. Right the irony v that you're 137 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: always the one doing it, like I should be the one. 138 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: If we're doing shows that connect to Star Wars characters, 139 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: it would be more likely one would think it would 140 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:25,719 Speaker 1: be me. But no, um, yeah what Tambor is the 141 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: head of the Techno Union Army. He's not a good guy, 142 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 1: So I can't imagine. I mean, I we have talked 143 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: before about how, um, George Lucas really big history buff. 144 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: So there are characters that are actually, yes, for sure 145 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: named inspired by history. But I don't know if this 146 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: is a case or not. It may just be a 147 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 1: coincidental similarity. Well, and Um. One of the things that 148 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: had been in the outline for the episode that I 149 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: wound up cutting because it was becoming very long, UM, 150 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: was how I mentioned we mentioned that, um, the interpretation 151 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: of this rebel, and as is always the case, we 152 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: we re examine and we reargue history all the time, 153 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: and so the interpretation of what Tyler has shifted. It's 154 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 1: also shifted in literature, especially in England. Um. And so 155 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: for a time, particularly among the highest class people in England, 156 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: like what Tyler was a villain leading up to the 157 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: English Civil Wars, Like one of the precautionary speeches about 158 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 1: how things were going was that the long and noble 159 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: system of English government was going to fall to a 160 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: wat Tyler Um. And then in a totally different shift 161 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: during that same era where where Henry every was seen 162 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: as a like a pirate hero because people were just 163 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 1: really into pirates and outlaws, Like there were a bunch 164 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: of London theater plays that were written that were about 165 00:10:55,120 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: the almost Robin Hood esque figure of what Tyler Um. So, yes, 166 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: depending on who you're talking to and what there, what 167 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: their position in society is, and what century we're talking about, 168 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: people have had like vastly different, um interpretations of what 169 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: Tyler in particular, and the also the uprising as a whole, 170 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: and now I can think of as Tyler Dirton. Yeah, 171 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 1: maybe that's why Tyler Dirden was named that. Uh, I mean, 172 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: I suppose somebody could reach out to Chuck Politic and 173 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: ask him. Um, it's a really interesting thing, right. We 174 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: talked about how history gets reinterpreted all the time, and 175 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: part of it is we You even put it in 176 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: the outline that there were uh chroniclers at the time 177 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: that we're all writing about it, but they all bring 178 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: their own perspective to it, and they're so far outside 179 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: of it that even though that's a primary source, it's 180 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: a primary source with inherent bias. Right. I think there 181 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: was only one of those eight chronicles that that seemed 182 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: to think that the rebelling people might have had a point, 183 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 1: like well, the rest of them were sort of like 184 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: this poor rabble they tore up London, right. Uh. Yeah, 185 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,679 Speaker 1: it's interesting and it makes me examine how I mean 186 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:20,199 Speaker 1: we it gets talked about a lot right now, Um, 187 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: how events are framed by different news outlets, etcetera. But 188 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: even outlets that are you know, considered to be fairly 189 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: neutral and unbiased, you still have to recognize that the 190 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: people ultimately like writing the copy unconsciously have their own 191 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: bias in anything. It's always like a big, big thing 192 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 1: that has been on my mind a lot in the 193 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 1: last several months before all of this even is how 194 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: we present ourselves publicly through like our personal communications but 195 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: also bigger communications, and how that is going to be 196 00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: interpreted by future historians. And I I mean, I don't 197 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: wish that I could time travel forward, but I do 198 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: think it would be interesting to see how all of 199 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: the things going on today are interpreted in the future. 200 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: And it would be cool to do a side by 201 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: side of something like that and something like what Tyler's 202 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: rebellion right and compare like the primary source chroniclers of 203 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:26,839 Speaker 1: both eras. Yeah, but we can't do that, so I'm 204 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 1: just talking out my behind. We'll go on a list 205 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: of our our bad uses for a time machine, right anyway, 206 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: I think that's unless you had anything else you want 207 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 1: to bring up. I think that's maybe a good place 208 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: to call it. Uh No, I'm good, Okay, If you'd 209 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 1: like to write to us about this or any other 210 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: podcast or history podcast at I heart radio dot com. 211 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: We're also all over social media. Ad Missed in History 212 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: and you can subscribe to our show on Apple podcast 213 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: that I heart radio app and reals at your podcasts. 214 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of 215 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: I heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, 216 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 217 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.