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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. A few months back,

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Speaker 1: Carlton Reserve gave up a big secret. It's in the

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Speaker 1: reserve that the body of Brian Laundry was found. We

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Speaker 1: didn't really know what state his remains were in. There

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Speaker 1: was a lot of speculation. But now because of forensic

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Speaker 1: science and what I'm about to tell you today, we've

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Speaker 1: got more answers than we could have ever voted for.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan in this his body backs again

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Speaker 1: with me today is my good friend Jackie Howard, executive

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Speaker 1: producer of Crime Stories. When Nancy Grace, Jackie, I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you what I didn't think we'd ever see this day.

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Speaker 1: But boy do we as a info to impart to

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Speaker 1: all our listeners this time we do. Joe, as you

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Speaker 1: and I were discussing the details that came out in

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Speaker 1: this report, you said something to me that that piqud

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Speaker 1: interest right off the top of the bat. And that

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Speaker 1: is the fact that the autopsy report for Brian Laundry

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Speaker 1: is not one report, but five. Please explain that to me. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that's something I gotta tell you. When when I

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Speaker 1: you know, of course, I had people from all over

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Speaker 1: that were shooting me the link when it first came out,

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Speaker 1: and um, I was amazed because, yeah, we we don't

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Speaker 1: just simply have an autopsy report. Not that that's not

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Speaker 1: a great thing, but yeah, we've got five of these reports, Jackie,

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Speaker 1: and that's that's kind of amazing. I'm just gonna kind

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Speaker 1: of give you the basic rundown real quick of what

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Speaker 1: we have. We have the Emmy investigator's report, which is

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Speaker 1: actually the medical legal death investigator that physically went out

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Speaker 1: to the scene and observed what was out there. Remember,

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Speaker 1: they're the eyes and the ears of the forensic pathologists.

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Speaker 1: They go out and they bring in data for the

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Speaker 1: pathologists so that they can make determinations. Most of the time,

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Speaker 1: forensic pathologists don't go into the field. Then you have

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Speaker 1: the forensic pathology were But you said the investigator's report.

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Speaker 1: What kind of things are on that report? You're looking

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Speaker 1: at detailed drawings of where everything is laid out, photographs.

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Speaker 1: What exactly is the pathologists going to be looking at

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Speaker 1: when he reads that report? Well, first off, you know,

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Speaker 1: you have to understand that the forensic pathologist doesn't physically

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Speaker 1: go to the scene. You see that on television. It

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Speaker 1: just it happens only in rare occasions. So most of

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Speaker 1: the time you're gonna have a medical examiner investigator, which

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Speaker 1: is what I did for a living all those years.

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Speaker 1: That is going to be the eyes and the ears

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Speaker 1: of the forensic pathologists out in the field. So they

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Speaker 1: physically go out there and observe the environment and the

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Speaker 1: environment which the body has found. And that's important here

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Speaker 1: because that lends context to the story, uh that that

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Speaker 1: is being told by the environment. So in Brian Laundry's case,

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Speaker 1: you know, you've got skeletal remains which are essentially deposited

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Speaker 1: out in the swampy area, um, and it's it's kind

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Speaker 1: of convoluted and confused. If I'll put it to you you

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Speaker 1: this way, if you just had a bunch of cops

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Speaker 1: and went out and randomly picked up evidence and brought

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Speaker 1: it back to the morgue and handed it to the

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Speaker 1: doctor and said, here, figure this out. Can you imagine

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Speaker 1: what what a nightmare that would be. So the medical

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Speaker 1: examiner investigator is kind of an extension of the forensic pathologists,

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Speaker 1: and what they're taking a look at is first off,

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Speaker 1: the distribution of the bones, and you want to see

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Speaker 1: how far out they extend in this environment. Where are

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Speaker 1: they deposited, How are they deposited? Are some partially buried?

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Speaker 1: Are they just laying out on the bare surface of

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Speaker 1: the earth and this kind of loamy uh dirt that's

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Speaker 1: down there with all the decomposing vegetable matter that's surrounding it.

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Speaker 1: Is the ground soft? Is it hard? Uh? Does it

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Speaker 1: look like there may have been a grave that was

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Speaker 1: adjacent to this area? You know, all kinds of issues

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Speaker 1: like that. And one of the things that really was

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Speaker 1: telling for me is that this is how detailed this

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Speaker 1: report is. And I encourage all of our listeners and

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Speaker 1: bodybacks to read this report if you really interested in forensics.

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Speaker 1: This investigator did such a fantastic job. They even talked

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Speaker 1: about the height of what the water level had been

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Speaker 1: at and you could see that. You know how many

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Speaker 1: times if you have a flooded area, you'll see where

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Speaker 1: the water line got up to. If you live near

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Speaker 1: the river or maybe near the ocean, you can see

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Speaker 1: that kind of benchmark, that staining that had that takes place.

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Speaker 1: They made note of that, and that's significant in this

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Speaker 1: case because remember what they were telling us weeks ago

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Speaker 1: when they finally recovered Brian Launder's remains. They said that

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Speaker 1: remains had been submerged and these depths are gonna vary

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Speaker 1: out there. So the Emmy investigator puts all of that

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Speaker 1: in context, and then they make note of not only

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Speaker 1: the bones and the distribution of the bone is in

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Speaker 1: the area that they cover, but any other items. And

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Speaker 1: we've boy, did they find items. You know, we've we've

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Speaker 1: heard about the dry bag, you know, that was that

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Speaker 1: was out there. They found that, they found the notebook,

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Speaker 1: they had a box that notebook was in. They've found

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Speaker 1: a weapon out there. They found, believe it or not,

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Speaker 1: they found a projectile and you know that projectile was

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Speaker 1: actually uh buried beneath six inches of this loamy soil

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Speaker 1: that I mentioned. You know how they found that, Well,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't laying on top of the ground. That means

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Speaker 1: that they went out there with metal detectors and swept

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Speaker 1: the area. So there's a lot that goes into this,

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Speaker 1: into this environment. Um And you know, one of the

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Speaker 1: things that I was always interested in as an Emmy investigator,

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Speaker 1: I think it applies here is how much cover and

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Speaker 1: concealment was there out here, you know, and when you

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Speaker 1: get into a swampy area. They used terms like canopy.

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Speaker 1: We heard we hear that term lots of times relative

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Speaker 1: to jungle. What kind of canopy do you have out there?

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Speaker 1: How thick are the leaves above you? Is it? Is

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Speaker 1: this an area that could be appreciated if you were

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Speaker 1: flying over it. It's pretty pretty thick vegetation out there.

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Speaker 1: And of course it was all around the rim of

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Speaker 1: this area where water had settled in Jackie. Okay, that's

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Speaker 1: one report. What's next? You know, after the body comes in,

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Speaker 1: that's brought in by the transport service, after the EMMY

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Speaker 1: investigator has done their part at the scene, it's at

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Speaker 1: this point in time that the forensic pathologist will begin

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Speaker 1: to do what would normally be considering an autopsy. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is an autopsy, even though you don't have a

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Speaker 1: fully intact body. But the pathologist actually goes in with

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Speaker 1: all of these bones and there were roughly I think

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Speaker 1: they recovered just under a hundred bones, I think, and

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Speaker 1: there's just over two hundred bones and the human body.

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Speaker 1: So you begin to talk about smaller bones you know

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Speaker 1: that we have in our bodies. Some of those things

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Speaker 1: you just you're just not going to recover. But they

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Speaker 1: did find a hundred and they were significant to have

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Speaker 1: found that number of bones. Joe, would that be considered

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Speaker 1: a successful recovery? A successful recovery is relative in in

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Speaker 1: forensic science. You you know, our fallback position is you

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Speaker 1: essentially take what you can get and if if this

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Speaker 1: is what you're presented with, and that's what you're gonna

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Speaker 1: move forward with. And we understand as forensic scientists that

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Speaker 1: you know, like the small bones that you find in

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Speaker 1: the hand for instance, um, the tips of the fingers,

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Speaker 1: those sorts of things, uh in in the feet as well,

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Speaker 1: some of those things are just going to be gone.

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Speaker 1: They'll either be gone as a result of being washed

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Speaker 1: away by water or you know in cases like this

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Speaker 1: where small animals are going to come along and take

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Speaker 1: bones away and they'll take them back to their little burrows.

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Speaker 1: Because you know, you have to understand these bones that

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Speaker 1: these animals seek out, um, their protein rich and animals

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Speaker 1: that I think most people think, you know, they look at, say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, of squirrel, they might look at a raccoon

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Speaker 1: or something to think, oh, well, it's so so beautiful.

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Speaker 1: You know, they wouldn't do anything to a human body.

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Speaker 1: Now they're they're seeking out protein and and that's what

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Speaker 1: they kind of get an infusion of with these bones,

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Speaker 1: and they can sense that and they'll take these tiny

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Speaker 1: bones something that's manageable and take it back to their

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Speaker 1: borrow and they're gonna hang onto it. And we found

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Speaker 1: tiny bones like that before on recovery, so the fact

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Speaker 1: that they've got a hundred is really significant. And even

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Speaker 1: better than that is the fact that they recovered I

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Speaker 1: think twenty six pieces of skull. And of course at

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Speaker 1: you know, what we're looking for here is cause and

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Speaker 1: manner of death in this particular case, and that goes

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Speaker 1: to a bigger issue when you have to account for

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Speaker 1: for everything that you have. And what I teach people

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Speaker 1: relative to forensics is this UM negative findings and always

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Speaker 1: keep this in mind in forensics sign so well just

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Speaker 1: about any kind of science. UM negative findings are just

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Speaker 1: as important as positive fund And so if you're absent something,

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Speaker 1: or you know, maybe you're doing a test and it

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Speaker 1: doesn't come out in a positive manner in which you

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Speaker 1: might want it to, that means that it takes you

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Speaker 1: down another path. Okay, So in this case you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: is it's a success. Yeah, it's a success because we've

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Speaker 1: got a hundred as opposed to say fifty, so that

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Speaker 1: that is significant. We've got a hundred bonds to work with.

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Speaker 1: I wish we had more, but that's what we have

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Speaker 1: and we're gonna move on from there. So you have

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Speaker 1: to when the friends of pathologists takes this, they have

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Speaker 1: this kind of particulate skeleton that they lay out on

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Speaker 1: this big stainless steel table and they'll go through and

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Speaker 1: they will inventory every single thing they have. They'll take

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Speaker 1: photographs of it, they'll take measurements of it, and just

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Speaker 1: to make sure, uh that they can account for everything

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Speaker 1: that was recovered in the field. And also to say,

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Speaker 1: you know what, guy, as I'll tell you what, we

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Speaker 1: didn't recover this in this why don't we make another

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Speaker 1: run out there now. The reason that's important is because

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Speaker 1: now you've got a medical doctor looking who who is

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Speaker 1: an anatomical not just a forensic pathologist, but most of

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Speaker 1: these guys are what are referred to as anatomical pathologist.

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Speaker 1: That means that they truly study the body. They will say,

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what, let's go back out one more

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Speaker 1: time and see if we can find this, this, and this.

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Speaker 1: I suggest you look in these particular areas relative to

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Speaker 1: where you found these particular bones, and then you go

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Speaker 1: back out and you do another pass at that area,

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Speaker 1: so that that gives you an idea of kind of

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Speaker 1: where you stand um and you can do a general

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Speaker 1: overall assessment because the more the more sample you have,

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Speaker 1: the higher the probability is that you're first off, only

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Speaker 1: determined manner and cause of death, and secondly you're gonna

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Speaker 1: be able to get a positive identification. And that's that's

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Speaker 1: kind of the heart and soul of what the medical

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Speaker 1: examiner is there for. We're there for three principal reasons,

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Speaker 1: the manner of death, the cause of death, and who

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Speaker 1: is this person? And that's what we do in that environment.

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Speaker 1: So you have you have the body such as it

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Speaker 1: is in total in that from that perspective, now you've

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Speaker 1: got this particulate skull. The fact that we have the

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Speaker 1: skull that is fragmented will say that that means it's

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Speaker 1: like a big puzzle, is significant because that gives us

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Speaker 1: an indication uh that something probably traumatic has happened to

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Speaker 1: the skull, because skulls do not just spontaneously fall apart,

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Speaker 1: even in the face of decomposition. Think about how many

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Speaker 1: documentaries you may have watched on burials, ancient burials. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Even when they recovered uh, King Richard the Third's body

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Speaker 1: out of the car park over in England many years ago.

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Speaker 1: He'd been buried for hundreds and hundreds of years. Guess

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Speaker 1: what his skull is still intact. You can tell where

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Speaker 1: a dagger gone into the back of the skulls. Skulls

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Speaker 1: are very resilient. So the fact that the skull that

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Speaker 1: they have is essentially particulate is significant when we begin

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Speaker 1: to think about the manner of death and the causality

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Speaker 1: as to what brought about their death. So that is

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Speaker 1: very important. UM, and what will you know? We have

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Speaker 1: this forensic pathology report that essentially is an autopsy. It's

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Speaker 1: going to be their examination of the bone. They're gonna

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Speaker 1: rule out any kind of trauma that they might see. UM.

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Speaker 1: I can tell you that, Um, based upon what I

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Speaker 1: read in the forensic pathology report, there was little or

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Speaker 1: no um soft tissue left. However, they did state that

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Speaker 1: along spinal proceeds, that is the vertebral bodies in the back,

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Speaker 1: they did see some evidence of what's referred to as

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Speaker 1: adapass here. And this is a unique thing that happens,

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Speaker 1: particularly in bodies that have been in water. Old timers

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Speaker 1: used to refer to it as death way acts. And

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Speaker 1: the best way I can really describe it is the

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Speaker 1: fat uh during the process of decomposition, actually turns into uh.

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Speaker 1: It gives the appearance of almost some people describe it

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Speaker 1: as cottage cheese or even cauliflower. Uh. It becomes very

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Speaker 1: hard and there were certain focal areas of that left behind.

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Speaker 1: But there Jackie, there was no other, no other soft

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Speaker 1: tissue left on the body. So that gives you an

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Speaker 1: indication that the body had in fact been out there

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Speaker 1: for a protracted period of time. Uh. The elements played

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Speaker 1: a part in this. I think that probably animal activity

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Speaker 1: played a significant part in this. And you know, so

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Speaker 1: the forensic pathologist is kind of left wanting at this

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Speaker 1: point because you know, look, I mean, it's one thing

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Speaker 1: to make a fatal diagnosis if you will, on a

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Speaker 1: body that is intact with soft tissue. It's completely different

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Speaker 1: if all you have your skeletal remains. It's it's very,

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Speaker 1: very difficult. So it's at that point point when I'm

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Speaker 1: flipping through the report, I almost became giddy. If you

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Speaker 1: can imagine that looking at a report like this, because

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Speaker 1: the most robust portion of this totality of paperwork that

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Speaker 1: came out was actually generated by the forensic anthropologist. Just

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Speaker 1: gonna ask you about that, Joe. You and I had

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Speaker 1: discussed the five different types of reports, as I mentioned earlier,

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Speaker 1: So there was the forensic pathology report and the forensic

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Speaker 1: anthropology report. What's the difference. Oh yeah, it's significant, you

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Speaker 1: know forensic anthropologists, you know, and it's gone down, I

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Speaker 1: guess and lower now relative to the body farm up

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Speaker 1: in Tennessee at ut you know, with Dr Bass and

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Speaker 1: what they do. The studies that they do up their

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Speaker 1: relative to human remains, and they refer to them as

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Speaker 1: many times as the desiccation studies. You hear that, But

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Speaker 1: essentially they're trying to determine, uh, you know, the rate

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Speaker 1: of decomposition. Well, those are forensic anthropologists that do that.

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Speaker 1: And what happens in this rendered down state is many

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Speaker 1: times all you have left or skeletal remains. And we're

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Speaker 1: very unique, uh you know, uh, even in our skeletal composition,

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Speaker 1: it is unique to us. It bears the marks of

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Speaker 1: of growth or lack of growth, or level of nutrition.

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Speaker 1: Injuries that we've had, say, for instance, we've had a

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Speaker 1: broken bone, even though you might perceive that it is healed,

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Speaker 1: and it is very well healed. If you've if you've

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Speaker 1: had a significant fracture in your life, guess what if

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Speaker 1: it's going to show up on an X ray, and

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Speaker 1: it will certainly show up in the hands of a

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Speaker 1: forensic anthropologist as they are examining a bone. Say, if

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Speaker 1: somebody's fractured a big bone like the femur, you'll see

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Speaker 1: a little fracture line in there where it's it's kind

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Speaker 1: of resolved and healed. And why that is important is

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Speaker 1: that that is a specific point of identification relative to

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Speaker 1: these remains that are otherwise completely compromised, your your absent

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Speaker 1: any other ability perhaps to get them identified. But if

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Speaker 1: somebody's got pins or screws in their hip or their knee,

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Speaker 1: or their shoulder or wherever, if they got for old

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Speaker 1: fracture lines. I've had cases where I've had individuals that

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Speaker 1: have been staffed through the ribs and can you imagine this,

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Speaker 1: You can still see the groove where the knife might

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Speaker 1: have passed through, maybe thirty years earlier. And but that's

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Speaker 1: a specific identifier that's unique to that person. But with

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Speaker 1: this particular skeleton, I go back to what I'd said earlier.

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Speaker 1: We have got this fragmented skull, and who else, who

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Speaker 1: else is is better? Uh, then a forensic anthropologist to

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Speaker 1: actually take the skull. And what what was done is

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Speaker 1: that they essentially reassembled the skull as best they could.

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Speaker 1: And when that reassembly had had a reassemblage had taken place,

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Speaker 1: Boy was a lot revealed here because essentially, uh, it

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Speaker 1: verified what a lot of people have speculated about I think,

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Speaker 1: and and it's one thing to speculate, but when you

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Speaker 1: can get scientific confirmation, as in this particular case, when

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Speaker 1: you've got so many people that are wondering about it,

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Speaker 1: so many people that are asking questions, and this is big.

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Speaker 1: It's it's one of the biggest things to kind of

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Speaker 1: rise up out of all of this data, you know

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Speaker 1: that has been recovered and examined, and and so with

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Speaker 1: this skull, when they finally got that particulate skull put

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Speaker 1: back together, the it was the biggest reveal of all

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Speaker 1: because it was at that point in time that the

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Speaker 1: forensic anthropologist and the forensic pathologists came together and their

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Speaker 1: their conclusion is that whoever the skull belonged to it

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Speaker 1: sustained a self inflicted gunshot wound. So Joe. The last

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Speaker 1: two reports of our five are by their titles pretty

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Speaker 1: self explanatory. That is the DNA analysis report and the

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Speaker 1: forensic dentistry, which is how is how the identification was

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Speaker 1: made on Brian laundry. Yeah, right, Yard Jackie, And I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of people would just kind of gloss

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Speaker 1: over this, but you have to understand this is one

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Speaker 1: of the biggest points of contention, at least from my

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Speaker 1: perspective having dealt with this case since I don't know

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Speaker 1: probably the uh actually the first day of of the investigation,

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Speaker 1: reporting on it and this sort of thing. This is

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Speaker 1: significant because you've got to know who the individual is.

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Speaker 1: That's that's one of the major questions here. And so

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Speaker 1: the d n A report that the analysts generated is

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Speaker 1: is kind of fascinating, particularly you know, if you're interested

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Speaker 1: in DNA and how this works. Um, what they did is,

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Speaker 1: you know, not only do they have do they have

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Speaker 1: the bone that the forensic anthropologist examined, but they also

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Speaker 1: had another element, uh, they had teeth. And so with

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Speaker 1: the teeth and then the long bones, what they were

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Speaker 1: able to do is to do an extraction, which means

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Speaker 1: that they can go into the pulp of the tooth.

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Speaker 1: They use a very fine drill and go in there

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Speaker 1: and extract pulp and it's kind of a robust area

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Speaker 1: where you can harvest DNA from UH and also in

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Speaker 1: you want to use like a larger bone if you can,

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Speaker 1: pelvis or femur. In this case, I think they used

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Speaker 1: the femur and UH remove some DNA sample from there

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Speaker 1: as well. Now, this is something quite interesting here. When

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Speaker 1: we were in the middle of reporting and I had

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Speaker 1: actually talked to Nancy Grace about this, Jack, there was

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Speaker 1: one day in particular where I saw an FBI investigator

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Speaker 1: go walking in the door. You know all those video

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Speaker 1: clips of them going into Brian Laundry's parents home. One

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Speaker 1: of the things I recognized, and I think it she

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Speaker 1: was holding them in the in her right hand. I

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Speaker 1: looked at that and I said, you know what those are,

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Speaker 1: DNA sample box that she's carrying in. And I think

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Speaker 1: that was kind of confirmed because what we did find

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Speaker 1: out is that they went in and did UH buckle

348
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Speaker 1: mucoastal swabs of both Brian Laundry's mom and dad. And

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Speaker 1: what that means is they go in and scrape the

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Speaker 1: cheek cells out and they can do a comparison relative

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Speaker 1: to the parents DNA versus the unidentified skeletal remains that

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Speaker 1: they had um and kind of only hand in hand

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Speaker 1: with that, we have this forensic dentistry examination that was conducted.

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Speaker 1: Some people know them as forensic odontologists. You hear them

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Speaker 1: associated with bite marks and that sort of thing. But

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Speaker 1: you know what, forensic dentists that forensic odentologists are used

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Speaker 1: far more frequently relative to identification than they are most

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Speaker 1: of the time with bite mark because you you have

359
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Speaker 1: so many unidentified bodies, people aren't aware of that. In

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Speaker 1: the public um, you get a lot of decomposed bodies,

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Speaker 1: and our default position traditionally has always been to go

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Speaker 1: to dentistry because you have these dentists that can go

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Speaker 1: in and examine the teeth. And teeth are fascinating. First off,

364
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:43,600
Speaker 1: teeth are not bone. People think that, but these teeth

365
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Speaker 1: that they have out at the scene, they're found in

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Speaker 1: both the mandible, which is your lower jaw, okay, the mandible,

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Speaker 1: and then you have them in the maxilla, which is

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Speaker 1: upper portion of your mouth. So they were able to

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Speaker 1: actually extract teeth. The dentist was and aid in the

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Speaker 1: harvesting of DNA from those samples. Now, in addition, in

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Speaker 1: addition to the d n A, the dentist also did

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Speaker 1: a dental examination of the teeth that they had. And

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Speaker 1: this is quite fascinating because you have to understand that

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Speaker 1: in order to do a dental identification, you can do

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Speaker 1: a perfect examination on a dead body, all right, an

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Speaker 1: unidentified dead body. But guess what you have at the

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Speaker 1: end of that, if you have nothing to compare it to, well,

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Speaker 1: you have an dental examination on a dead body. That's it.

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Speaker 1: That's the road ends literally right there. So what you

380
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,919
Speaker 1: have to do, and from an investigative standpoint, if you

381
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:45,520
Speaker 1: suspect that it is somebody, you go to a practitioner,

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Speaker 1: a dentist that has treated the suspected individual in the past,

383
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:51,879
Speaker 1: and you get there what's referred to as anti mortem

384
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Speaker 1: dental records. And they actually make note of this in

385
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Speaker 1: this report, and that's significant that they went to Brian

386
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:03,920
Speaker 1: Laundry's Pride practicing dentist and retrieved his chart and they

387
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,520
Speaker 1: begin to talk about malaclusions and how the teeth are

388
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 1: rotated and how they're pitched and all these sorts of things,

389
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,680
Speaker 1: and they compare the chart that they have with the

390
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:15,639
Speaker 1: teeth that they now have, and they were able to

391
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:34,560
Speaker 1: get a positive I d based on that. I don't

392
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,399
Speaker 1: know of any case that we've covered in body bags

393
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,960
Speaker 1: thus far that has contained this much information. I'm I

394
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,440
Speaker 1: was kind of blown away relative to the amount of

395
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 1: data that we have to go over in this case.

396
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,160
Speaker 1: It is a lot, Joe, and every bit of it

397
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,520
Speaker 1: is fascinating. And I'm gonna pinpoint one right now. You

398
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,440
Speaker 1: talked about the projectile that was discovered with the use

399
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 1: of a metal detector. I was reading in the report

400
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 1: that that projectile was found about fifty to sixty ft

401
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 1: south of the area where the skull fragments and the

402
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 1: handgun we're found. When it comes to an investigation like

403
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,639
Speaker 1: this that is so painstaking. You're talking about a lot

404
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 1: of man hours in finding that fragment. Yeah, you are.

405
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,160
Speaker 1: And it all comes to listen when you go into

406
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,679
Speaker 1: a scene like this, This is not a scene that

407
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 1: you just kind of willy nearly walk onto and say, Okay,

408
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:31,640
Speaker 1: you gotta look over there, you gotta look over there,

409
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 1: and I'll look over here, and uh, you know, maybe

410
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,399
Speaker 1: we'll find some of this, not how it's done. The

411
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,880
Speaker 1: this kind of scene like this, your efforts are one

412
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 1: or lost based on the preparation that goes into prior

413
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,439
Speaker 1: to even beginning to enter into a scene like this. Now,

414
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 1: kind of let me paint the picture, because this is

415
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 1: a hostile environment. And I don't mean hostile in the

416
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 1: sense that you know, you've got lines and tigers and

417
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,680
Speaker 1: bears of my even though people have said there might

418
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 1: be alligators, Um, the fact that it's super duper hot,

419
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,959
Speaker 1: you've got snakes out there. Um. The landscape is kind

420
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 1: of always changing. It's wet, it's high humidity. You're miserable.

421
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,239
Speaker 1: Trust me, I've been in environments like this. But what

422
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: you have to do to begin with is decide who's

423
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,679
Speaker 1: gonna handle what you know. Who's going to be the photographer,

424
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 1: who's going to be described that means a person writing

425
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 1: everything down. Who's gonna be the person that's gonna be

426
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,640
Speaker 1: down on their hands and knees, moving layers at dirt away.

427
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: Who's gonna be the person that's in charge of the

428
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 1: little markers they're gonna put them in the ground. And

429
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 1: so in order to do this, you have to break

430
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: up into teams, and then the teams will come together

431
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,719
Speaker 1: and actually grid off the area. Can you imagine that?

432
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 1: So that just imagine a gigantic plat of the land

433
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 1: where you've essentially got these grids that are roughly two

434
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,360
Speaker 1: by two two ft by two ft can be three

435
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 1: ft by three ft, and you work each one of

436
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 1: those little grid squares and most of the time, Uh,

437
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 1: in the past, I've seen people you string to string

438
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,159
Speaker 1: these things off and they're very, very uniformed, and you

439
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 1: only work one little section at a time, and it

440
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 1: is pains taking, but you don't want to miss anything

441
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 1: if you focus. It's like anything else in life. If

442
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 1: you look at something big, okay, uh, and you say,

443
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 1: oh my god, I've got to do all this work,

444
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 1: it's overwhelming. If you look at that one little section,

445
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 1: it's easy to kind of kind of handle. It's like

446
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 1: the old adage, how do you eat and how do

447
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 1: you eat an elephant? Well, you eat one bite at

448
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 1: a time. And trust me, this is the biggest elephant

449
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,959
Speaker 1: of all. When you have got human remains that are

450
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,919
Speaker 1: scattered from here to kingdom, come laying all out there

451
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 1: in this muddy environment, and you're miserable, so you have

452
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 1: to be very very ordered. And the fact that they

453
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: found this spent round um so far away from where

454
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 1: where the rest of the deposition of everything was, it's

455
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 1: kind of significant. I think it goes to the professionalism

456
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 1: um regarding the investigators, how thorough they were, because this

457
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: is something you could easily pass right over. My I

458
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,360
Speaker 1: suspect that you had several people that were out there

459
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: with metal detectors essentially very carefully and methodically may work

460
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: maybe working essentially uh in shouldered shoulder to put it

461
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: in a certain way and kind of sweeping back and forth,

462
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 1: back and forth gently, kind of moving forward. And whenever

463
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: you get a hit, you take a little flag out

464
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 1: and you market, and then you keep on going. You

465
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 1: keep on going, and everywhere you get a little hit,

466
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 1: your market and then you go back and you carefully

467
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: uncover that area. In this particular case, they were able

468
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 1: to find this projectile buried, from what I understand from

469
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: the report, almost six inches beneath the top layer of soil. Joe,

470
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 1: can we assume by the fact that this projectile fragment

471
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 1: was found that this would mean that there was an

472
00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: entrance and an exit wound. Oh, yeah, yeah, most likely.

473
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: And you know, you look, not only do we find

474
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 1: a projectile, Jackie, they found they found a handgun as well.

475
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: And this is where ballistics comes in. And I think

476
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 1: I suspect that more than likely the FBI got on

477
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: this with their lab um. The weapon I can only

478
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 1: imagine was probably compromising. It was a unique weapon because

479
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:25,400
Speaker 1: not only it's not just a standard thirty eight Special revolver,

480
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 1: it is a combination thirty eight Special Slash three fifty

481
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 1: seven magnum revolver. It's almost like a hybrid. It's kind

482
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 1: of an unusual weapon, and that makes it unique. It

483
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: makes it unique to Brian Laundry, maybe his family. I

484
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: don't know who actually owned this weapon, but it was

485
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 1: found there. And then more significantly is that that round

486
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 1: that I mentioned that was, you know, roughly six inches

487
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,719
Speaker 1: below that top layer of dirt. Ballistically it matched up

488
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 1: to this weapon. That means that we've got a significant

489
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: tie back to this weapon. It puts that round coming

490
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: out of that particular handgun because you know, as we've

491
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: talked about many many times on our show and as

492
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 1: well as with Nancy Uh, there is a specific ballistic

493
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: fingerprint that has left behind on the outer portion of

494
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 1: those soft lead projectiles and also on the outside of

495
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: a jacket that marries up to the lands and grooves

496
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 1: inside of that barrel. So, as the medical examiner told

497
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: us in his report, Brian Laundry was killed by a

498
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: single gunshot to the head. What I found interesting and

499
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 1: what was released in this report is the trajectory of

500
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: the bullet. Yeah, isn't that kind of interesting? Um? And

501
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: you know, just just to kind of give you an idea,

502
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 1: one of the things that that we look for and

503
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: in any kind of uh, gunfire related death, is to

504
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: try to determine obviously range of fire, that's something that

505
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: you hear about on a regular basis. Um. And we

506
00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: also try to uh determine uh the trajectory of the round.

507
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 1: That means, the path that travels on. And sometimes we

508
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: can estimate things like whether the round is traveling from

509
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 1: above to below or from below to above. Uh we

510
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: you know, take a look if it's going from front

511
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 1: to back, those sorts of things. So it's it is

512
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: significant that that we in fact have this, but just

513
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: so our listeners understand the entrance wound that they were

514
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: able to determine, that's interesting. Let me tell you how

515
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 1: we do this, because people say, well, how do you

516
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: know that this is an entrance wound when all you

517
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: have is a skull? Well, it's it's that's a great

518
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: question I'm glad to ask. When we have a skull,

519
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: for instance, we're gonna look for what's referred to and

520
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 1: I remember these words. It's called internal beveling. And if

521
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: you've ever seen a beveled piece of wood that's got

522
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: kind of a rounded edge to it, the beveling will

523
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: always be in the interior of the skull, adjacent to

524
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: the entrance wound. So when you open the skull up,

525
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: you look at it, and if the inner wall of

526
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: the skull is beveled or kind of curved, that's an

527
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: indication that the round actually entered at that point. Now,

528
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: as far as the egg, it goes this this entrance.

529
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: Let me back up. The entrance is actually in the

530
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: left temporal area. Left temporal So if you'll go to

531
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: your ear, your left ear, and simply move your finger

532
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 1: forward of your left ear. Okay, that's your temporal bone

533
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: right there. Now, what this round does is that it

534
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: travels from that entrance. It travels essentially from left to

535
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: right so we're entering the left temporal bone and we're

536
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: exiting out the right parietal bones. Some people will say

537
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: parietial and the prior toll bone is found to the

538
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: rear and above your right ear. You have one on

539
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: each side, but in this case it's going to be

540
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: the right parietal bone, and it's you know, they're matching

541
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 1: the scene up so that it is slightly above the

542
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: right ear, and it gives you kind of this odd trajectory.

543
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: So if you'll just imagine a rod running from forward

544
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: of your left ear and going coming out behind your

545
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 1: right ear, that will give you an idea. Is how

546
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: this you know, how this round actually traveled through the

547
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 1: skull and of course it blew out the other side. Now,

548
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: I know a lot of people would ask, well, you know, Morgan,

549
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: you talked about how the you know, the skull is

550
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 1: in twenty six pieces. I think it was that they recovered.

551
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: You know, why is it in twenty six pieces? Why

552
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:40,239
Speaker 1: why didn't it just you have one hole on one

553
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: side and another hole on the other side. Well, you

554
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: gotta you gotta understand something. When a weapon is fired

555
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: into a skull, You're not just talking about the projectile

556
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: itself entering the skull. All right, Now here's a bit

557
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: of science where you a lot of us learn this

558
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 1: and about the seventh and eighth grade in physical science.

559
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: And this is a beautiful thing, particularly when you're looking

560
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: at death investigation. Now it's not just the projectile, and

561
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: this is a large projectile. It's a hunkle lad coming

562
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: out of this Out of this weapon, you've also got

563
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: hot expanding gas. And if you don't think that's powerful,

564
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: hang on all right, because the bullet itself, the projectile

565
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: is creating a hole, right, it's creating a hole in

566
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: the left temporal bone. And followed closely behind this bullet,

567
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: is this really hot air. If you ever see like

568
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: uh uh, you know videos of weapons being fired at night,

569
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: it looks like flames are shooting out of the end

570
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: of them, Well it is. That's some of that hot

571
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 1: air coming out. And hot air always expands, it never contracts,

572
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: So it's going to expand. And when you go into

573
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: what's referred to as the cranial vault, which is where

574
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: our brain is house, that's the inside of the skull,

575
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: that hot air is looking to expand. And when we

576
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: were being formed, when we were in fetal development. Our

577
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 1: skull actually came together along these lines that are called

578
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: suture lines, and they look like teeth that are kind

579
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 1: of integrated, and that's one of the weaker spots of

580
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: the skull. So as that hot air is expanding out

581
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: into that cranial vault, all of a sudden, those suitura

582
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: lines blow apart. All right. That's why you have these

583
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: these really nasty head injuries. You know that you see

584
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: people with self and maybe people have seen these horrible

585
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: images on the internet. That's one of the reasons that happens.

586
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: You have. The projectile plays a large role inns, but

587
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: that hot air that's expanding and more than likely it's

588
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,959
Speaker 1: hard to tell because there was no tissue left. More

589
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: than likely, this is what we refer to as a

590
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: press or a tight contact gunshot one. So you're forming

591
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: a seal over that particular area where the projectile went in.

592
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: And buddy, let me tell you something. That gas wants

593
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: to seek the weakest area that it can so it

594
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: can do what it actually does, and so it blows

595
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: out all of those bits of skull and they just

596
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: literally come apart. That's why you had it not really

597
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: disintegrate disintegrated is not accurate, but it it became um

598
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: particulate at that point in time and it came apart.

599
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: And again this is just like the project out. This

600
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 1: is a testament to how effective these investigators were. And

601
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 1: I'm talking about the crime scene investigators. I'm not talking

602
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 1: about detectives. I'm talking about the crime scene investigators. That

603
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 1: the people from the medical examiner, how tenacious they were

604
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: at the scene as they recovered that many pieces of

605
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: the skull around the body, and they were able to

606
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: bring that in. And if they hadn't done that, if

607
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: they hadn't done that where they could take it reconstructed

608
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 1: essentially or put it back together as best they could

609
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,720
Speaker 1: with what they had left, you wouldn't have the answers

610
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: to this. You wouldn't know that it was from left

611
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 1: to right and from the temporal bone to the parietal

612
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: bone and the pitch of it and all these sorts

613
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: of things. So they did a bang up job with this.

614
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,280
Speaker 1: One more point that I found very interesting in this report, Joe,

615
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 1: is the fact that the entrance wound is on the

616
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 1: left side of Brian laundry skull. If I am not mistaken,

617
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 1: Brian Laundry was right handed. Yeah, and that's something. And

618
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,280
Speaker 1: I've heard several people kind of offer up opinions about

619
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: this and the sort of thing, people that are hand

620
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 1: supposed handgun experts and all this. And you know, I

621
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: don't have an explanation for that. I wish I did.

622
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 1: I just don't. UM, it's it's from an investigative standpoint,

623
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 1: it's interesting to me. I think that my next question

624
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: would be, and trust me, when I hear things like this,

625
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: I don't if I hear hoofbeats, I don't automatically think

626
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 1: that zebra. Okay, I'm gonna think horse. So with this

627
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,720
Speaker 1: I would want to explore it further. The first question

628
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: I would ask his loved ones and the people in

629
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: his immediate circle, Uh, was he ambidextrious? You know? Did

630
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: he use both his left and right hand? And then

631
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: that that kind of explained some things. Um, I don't know.

632
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 1: Maybe he only felt comfortable holding this weapon in his

633
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,800
Speaker 1: left hand. I don't know. I guess you can imply

634
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 1: that there's something maybe ominous with that that maybe you know,

635
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 1: people might think that, uh, that someone else was holding

636
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 1: the weapon as opposed to him. I can't answer that,

637
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 1: and I don't know that that anybody could from a

638
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 1: forensics standpoint, Okay, that's that's a question that would have

639
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 1: to be explored further by law enforcement. But yeah, it

640
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 1: is certainly an interesting point of order. I think when

641
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 1: you begin to think, you do you know he's right handed,

642
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 1: and that's been definitively stated, um that he's done everything

643
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: with his right hand throughout his life. So you know,

644
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: I think as a scientist we would want to ask, well,

645
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: why suddenly, at this moment in time that he decided

646
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 1: to end his life with his left hand. It's very

647
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: important that you know that these remains have been recovered

648
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 1: and that we can learn so much I think probably

649
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 1: from the physical presentation of Brian Launder's remains. But you know,

650
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 1: I think a lasting question that will I don't know

651
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 1: ever be sufficiently answered. But you have to ask what,

652
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,439
Speaker 1: what exactly does the scene tell us about what went

653
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 1: on in the Carling Reserve, Joe. We know on the

654
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: scene among the things that were recovered besides the bones

655
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 1: was a backpack and the shoes been along into brian laundry.

656
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,240
Speaker 1: There was a pair of green shorts, a green belt

657
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: to slip on shoes, a backpack, a white metal ring

658
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 1: and the handgun. But in addition to this joke, there

659
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 1: was a second scene that included some animal remains, a

660
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: handwritten note, and the hat and that dry bag that

661
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 1: we have talked about so often that had the journal inside.

662
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: You know, one of the most fascinating things about being

663
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: a death investigator, Jackie is is fact that we we

664
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: see the end, the end if you will, physically of

665
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 1: an individual all that remains, if you will. But there's

666
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: a lot that we kind of learn about what was

667
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,720
Speaker 1: going on relative to an individual at the moment time

668
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 1: or close approximating the moment time when they took their life.

669
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 1: You know, what was what were the last activities that

670
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 1: they were engaged in? Um, you know, what were they

671
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 1: surrounded by? What was environment like? And I have no

672
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: doubt that out there in the Carlton Reserve, out there

673
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 1: in that thick, thick uh uh, in that wet environment,

674
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 1: that they recovered quite a bit. I think that obviously,

675
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 1: uh many people are very interested in this note. And

676
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:10,879
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that kind of came

677
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:15,280
Speaker 1: out in these reports was that it was a partial note.

678
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 1: And I don't know really how to define that. I'm

679
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 1: hoping that the authorities will add some clarity to that, um,

680
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 1: because I don't know. I don't know if it means

681
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 1: that the note was partially written and then he just

682
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 1: kind of trailed off and didn't finish a sentence. I

683
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 1: don't know what that means. But they have established that

684
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: the notebook was there, had a note, and that you know,

685
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 1: this dry bag that has been speculated about for some

686
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 1: time that was physically there as well. But you know,

687
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: I think probably one of the most poignant things for me, Jackie,

688
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: that kind of um really struck a chord with me,

689
00:39:55,320 --> 00:40:00,080
Speaker 1: not just you know, as an investigator, but um m

690
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:07,319
Speaker 1: hm as a father was the fact that at the

691
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: scene they recovered a red hat and uh that had

692
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: had the words Moab Coffee Roasters written on it. And

693
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:24,280
Speaker 1: when I read that and um contained in the scientific report,

694
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 1: and it would seem that it's just kind of this

695
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 1: innocuous thing that you know, you just happen to find

696
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: it a scene. All I could do at that moment,

697
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 1: tim was reflect back to a young girl on the

698
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 1: side of the road, weeping, her in this circumstance that

699
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 1: she suddenly found herself in that she probably didn't want

700
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: to be in anymore, you know, because we've talked a

701
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:58,399
Speaker 1: lot about Brian Laundry, and god knows a lot has

702
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 1: been written about him having I mean, we've got five

703
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 1: scientific reports we're talking about today, but you know, we

704
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 1: haven't mentioned Gabby's name. I'll be damned, I'm gonna do

705
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:13,359
Speaker 1: this podcast today without mentioning Gabby Petito's name, because at

706
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: the end of the day, that's what this is about,

707
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: the fact that she was out on the side of

708
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: that road and Brian Laundry had a hat with him, Jackie,

709
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: and that hat actually had the words Moab Coffee Roasters

710
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 1: on it. And let's think back to what Moab, what

711
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 1: what significance there was to Moab. That's at that moment

712
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: in time when many people felt like that if another

713
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 1: path had been taken, this young girl would still be

714
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: with us. And you know, I think she's amble back

715
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,240
Speaker 1: of a lot of a lot of young women across

716
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 1: the country, you know, that are in these terrible relationships

717
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,879
Speaker 1: and no one knows and if they just taken another path.

718
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 1: But that the Moab Coffee Roaster's hat that was there,

719
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 1: it had a significance to me that went beyond just

720
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:06,720
Speaker 1: its evidentiary value. It was kind of this benchmark moment.

721
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 1: And I can only imagine these investigators, these investigators out

722
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 1: there it's seen, knew what that had meant when they

723
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 1: saw it. It's not just something that you know. He

724
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,360
Speaker 1: arbitrarily said, oh well, I've got five different baseball caps

725
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 1: I'm gonna grab and where it He wore that hat

726
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 1: out there. He knew what had happened in Moab, and

727
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 1: it was that one moment in time. It was at

728
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: one moment in time when life could have changed, but

729
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 1: it wound up in this It wound up with a

730
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 1: young girl that was found brutally throttled to death out

731
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: in the wilderness of a place that she had never lived,

732
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 1: she'd probably never been to before, dying all along without there,

733
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: out there with nobody around her that truly loved her.

734
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 1: And another young man decomposing in the swamp after he

735
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 1: ends his own life. And you know, I don't know

736
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 1: how much more we can really make of it. The science,

737
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 1: I think is great, but the science doesn't really do

738
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: it justice, does it relative to what she endured for

739
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,839
Speaker 1: I don't know that road trip that they took, and

740
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 1: lord knows for how many weeks proceeding maybe even months

741
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 1: proceeding that faithful day. I'm Joseph's got Morgan and this

742
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: is body backs