1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,800 Speaker 1: Um Greg's store in Washington, with June Grasso in New York, 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: and you're listening to Bloomberg Law. I'm here today to 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:11,079 Speaker 1: announce that the program known as DACA that was effectuated 4 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 1: under the Obama administration is being rescinded. With those words, 5 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,279 Speaker 1: Attorney General Jeff Sessions heralded the apparent end of the 6 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,440 Speaker 1: Dreamer program and its protection for eight hundred thousand people 7 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: who entered the US illegally as children. Under DACA, those 8 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: people were shielded from deportation and could get work permits. 9 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: The program will be phased out, so no one's status 10 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: will be changed for six at least six months at 11 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:37,959 Speaker 1: the period that, in theory at least could let Congress 12 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: address the status of the Dreamers. With us to talk 13 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: about the implications of today's announcement is David Beer. He's 14 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: a policy analyst at the Cato Institute. And Margaret Korean, 15 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: he's executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies. David, 16 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: let's just start with the nuts and bolts of this. 17 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: Tell us how this phase out is going to work. Well, 18 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: it's gonna work on a sort of rolling basis, so 19 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: you're gonna have people losing their DOCTA permits um on 20 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: a ongoing basis, So it's not all going to happen 21 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: at once in six months. Rather, people's renewals will come up. 22 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 1: They get a two year permit to work and live 23 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: legally in the United States. That permit will expire at 24 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:30,759 Speaker 1: some point, and based on the numbers from the government, UH, 25 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: you're pretty much gonna have some people being able to 26 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: stay in their DOCTA status until uh, some people will 27 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: lose their DOCCA status in and some people will lose 28 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: their DOCTA status. So it all depends on when you 29 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: first received your doctor permit. And just David, quickly, just 30 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: as I know you've looked at the numbers, are are 31 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: most of the people in the status where they're gonna 32 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: lose lose uh, their rights start in six months. So 33 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: actually you're gonna have about six of the people currently 34 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: in the program will continue to have status uh through 35 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: nine teams through all of next year, they will continue 36 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: to have status and then it will you know, quickly 37 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:22,399 Speaker 1: expire after that. So President Trump has signed more than 38 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: forty executive orders, ranging from stopping immigrants from some Muslim 39 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: countries from entering the US to stopping transgender people from 40 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: serving in the military. So, David, how can the Attorney 41 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: General Sessions say that President Obama's executive action on DAKA 42 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: was unconstitutional? Well, it's certainly inconsistent in terms of the 43 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: theory of executive power. That's being employed in one area 44 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: is not being employed in in the same way in 45 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: another area. And Uh, you know, the the DACA program 46 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: has existed for sinceve so we have over five years 47 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: with that program. Other programs of a similar nature existed 48 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 1: under the H. W. Bush administration, that George W. Bush administration. 49 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,920 Speaker 1: You've had these types of deferred action programs for select 50 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: groups of of unauthorized immigrants going back many years. And 51 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: it really doesn't seem any different, uh today, except that 52 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:31,839 Speaker 1: the administration disagrees with the program on policy merits Mark, 53 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: let's bring you into this, um. So, Jeff Sessions kept 54 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: talking today about the rule of law and in his 55 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: view that DACCA is unconstitutional. If that's the case, does 56 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: it does it make sense to let this program go 57 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: on even for six months. Shouldn't administration have ended it immediately? Well, 58 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: the administration should have ended it in January when it 59 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: took over, and the President has pledged to abolish it 60 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: on day once. So the answer is yes, um, but 61 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: you also have to deal with practical reality, and what 62 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: they seem to be doing here is trying to create 63 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: a soft landing for the doctor. This is what the 64 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: sit and also create a grace period for Congress to 65 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: actually um put together legislation to properly legalize them. So 66 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 1: so the answer is yeah, ideally this never should have 67 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: existed in the first place. But like any other um 68 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:34,359 Speaker 1: unconstitutional usurpation of legislative power by the executive, you have 69 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: to deal with the facts that have been created and 70 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 1: try to unwind the illegal act um, because that's the 71 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: predn way to deal with it, rather than simply um 72 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: sort of uh, you know, abolish it altogether turned into 73 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: a punk. I mean they could, but you know, prudence 74 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: demands that you have to deal with the facts that 75 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: you inherit, not the facts that you wish you and inherit. 76 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: David in just about thirty seconds. Would this have happened 77 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: if attorneys general in ten conservative states hadn't threatened a 78 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 1: legal challenge to the program, Uh, if it continued beyond 79 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:20,679 Speaker 1: September five, giving Trump a political deadline, he was pretty 80 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: obvious that it would not have happened. And so what 81 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: you're referring to as a letter led by Texas Attorney 82 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: General Uh to the administration saying that we will file 83 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: a lawsuit challenging this deferred action program, the doctor program, 84 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: if you do not end it by September five. And 85 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: here we are on September five, they're announcing the end 86 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: of the program. The Trump administration has announced it will 87 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: phase out the Obama Doctor Program, which applied to a 88 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: hundred thousand young people who entered the US illegally as children. 89 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: Those so called dreamers have been able to live free 90 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: from the threat of deportation and with the right to 91 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 1: hold down jobs. Here's how Atorney General Jeff Sessions defended 92 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 1: the decision. We are people of compassion, and we are 93 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: people of law, but there's nothing compassionate about the failure 94 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: to enforce immigration laws. Enforcing the law saves lives for 95 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: tax communities and taxpayers, and prevents human suffering. Mark, I 96 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: want to ask you about those comments from Jeff Session. 97 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: As you know, a lot of these people came here 98 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 1: as very young children. Some of them can't even remember 99 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: the country they came from. When I heard him talk 100 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: about compassion, I heard him talking entirely about people who 101 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: are legally in the US, and not any of the dreamers, 102 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: not compassion towards them. Did you hear anything different, Well, um, yeah, 103 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: I mean I don't think he was talking about either 104 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: legal or at le on other words, I think from 105 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: what you was saying in that comment was that when 106 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: you have a clear, consistent rules that are that are 107 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: consistently enforced, you make sure that people abroad know what 108 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: to expect. Whereas the reason we have this situation with 109 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: the doccas is that we have immigration laws that, for 110 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: various political and financial interests, have made sure that we 111 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: don't enforce them. So we have laws on the books 112 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: that are then poorly enforced, and you end up with 113 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: a situation where, for instance, you have uh, several hundred 114 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: thousand people who came here as young children, um, some 115 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: of them teenagers, but a lot of them as young 116 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: children who grew up here. Well, the only reason that 117 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: was even possible is because we let the immigration law 118 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: go unenforced for so long that people ended up just 119 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: being able to stay. And the lesson of this whole 120 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: docta business is that you need to have clear, consistent 121 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: immigration laws that are enforced so that you don't entice 122 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: people to come here illegally, and you make sure that 123 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: those who do come are found and returned expeditiously, rather 124 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: than um allowed able to stay for years and years 125 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: and end up in the kind of situation we keep today. David, 126 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: this is supposed to be an orderly transition, and yet 127 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: you have a situation where the DACA recipients are almost 128 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: in a worse situation than illegal immigrants because all their 129 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: information has been given to the government and if if 130 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: they want to get them at some point in the future, 131 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: they have that information. So and it's also seems very 132 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: not it doesn't seem very orderly when it's happening on this, 133 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: on this every three months. You know, things may happen. 134 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: It just doesn't seem like it's an orderly process. Well, 135 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: it's certainly going to be chaotic for the businesses that 136 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: have to fire over seven twenty thousand people really on 137 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 1: a you know, four hundred people week are going to 138 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: be fired. They're gonna have to, uh, you know, expend 139 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: enormous amount of resources trying to replace those people. That 140 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: money comes directly out of the paychecks of other workers 141 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: at those businesses as well as the the payments that 142 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: they received from consumers. So yes, it's it's going to 143 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: be orderly from the standpoint of the government. Because the 144 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: government doesn't have to do hardly anything. They can just 145 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,199 Speaker 1: rely on these businesses to have to go around and 146 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: police their workforces and fire these people. I don't think 147 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: that the Trump administration is going to immediately start targeting 148 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: all of these uh, doctor recipients, and that's simply because 149 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: of the fact that they don't have the resources to 150 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: deport everyone in the United States, and uh, you know, 151 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: there are enough people that they can catch in other 152 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: ways that they can really ramp up enforcement without going 153 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:58,679 Speaker 1: after the doctor recipients immediately. Now down the line, certain 154 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: ones of them will asolutely be disadvantaged as a result 155 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: of this and be deported. Um, but I don't think 156 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: it's gonna be a blanket policy of going after them. Mark. 157 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 1: The administration left up in the possibility that Congress could 158 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: act in the six month period to address the status 159 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: of the doctor recipients. Do you see any realistic chance 160 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: that that this Congress could actually put together something that 161 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: would address this issue from a legislative standpoint, Yeah, I 162 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: think so. I mean, they didn't just leave the possibility open. 163 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: That's what that six months. The great period is for 164 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: is for Congress to get on the stick. If they 165 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: had done this in January when the President said he 166 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: was going to do it and given them say to 167 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: the end of this year, they would have a longer period. 168 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,959 Speaker 1: But yeah, I think it's clearly enough time because they 169 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 1: don't need to put together some vast thousand page bill 170 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: like the Gang of Eight fiasco from several years ago. 171 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: They need legislation that does one thing, and that is 172 00:10:56,160 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: legalize the doctas who were already a finite population. They 173 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 1: know who they are, and as part of that, mitigate 174 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: damage that any amnesty like that would do. So they 175 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: would have to include and enforcement measures, specifically mandating the 176 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 1: de Verify system, which is an online system businesses can 177 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: use to make sure that people they hire are telling 178 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: the truth about who they are. And they'd have to 179 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: get rid of some of the legal immigration categories to 180 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: prevent the relatives of these amnesty recipients, who knew what 181 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: they were doing when they came they were adults them 182 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: from being able to benefit. I want to give David 183 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: fifteen seconds to say whether he agrees whether Congress can 184 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: actually act in this time. Congress can certainly act within 185 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: this period of time. Uh, it seems unlikely if they're 186 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 1: going to try to take up the sort of bargain 187 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: that Mark has put forward. Okay, I want to thank 188 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: our guests, Mark Retkorean David Beer talking about the Trump 189 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,959 Speaker 1: administration's decision to phase out the DACA program. Uh, thanks 190 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: for being with us on bloomberg Loft.