Speaker 1: Good morning, Peevesen, Welcome to wok F Daily with me
Speaker 1: your Girl Daniel Moody pre recording from the Home Bunker, Folks.
Speaker 1: As I said yesterday, I am away for a trip
Speaker 1: to London to join Meddie Hassan on one of his
Speaker 1: infamous debates panels that he does and I am super
Speaker 1: super excited to be joining him. So today, on today's episode,
Speaker 1: we are doing part two of my in depth conversation
Speaker 1: with the fabulous producer of wok F Daily, Andrew Marcello.
Speaker 1: If you remember, in part one we went through kind
Speaker 1: of this incredible web of gen z white male gamers
Speaker 1: and how they have become fertile ground for MAGA, and
Speaker 1: how this did not just happen overnight, it actually has
Speaker 1: been years, if not decades into the making, and what
Speaker 1: this could potentially mean as we move into not only
Speaker 1: the ferocious sprint of this election, but in general the
Speaker 1: sanctity and security of our democracy going forward. So Andrew
Speaker 1: walks us through this world again, giving us some insights
Speaker 1: that are just frankly mind blowing. And my feeling is that,
Speaker 1: like we all need to be aware of what is
Speaker 1: happening and how Steve Bannon and others are tapping into
Speaker 1: this cult of personality and essentially weaponizing this group against democracy,
Speaker 1: against progress, against a multiracial democracy, and more so, that
Speaker 1: conversation with Andrew is coming up next, folks. I am
Speaker 1: so happy to be rejoined on Woke app Daily by
Speaker 1: my producer extraordinaire Andrew Marcello, who if you remember, we
Speaker 1: are doing a two part episode on the rise of
Speaker 1: oh God, right wing gen z but basically through the
Speaker 1: world of gaming. And Andrew gave us in our first
Speaker 1: episode of this two part series a real deep dive
Speaker 1: in timeline that took us back to the nineties in
Speaker 1: terms of like when this world was created, who's responsible
Speaker 1: for it, and kind of moving us through to today
Speaker 1: to the present day, where there's a particular set of
Speaker 1: white young male gamers that are I guess, what would
Speaker 1: you say, Andrew, like a foundational part of like the
Speaker 1: Maga movement, an arm of the Maga movement.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're definitely a wing and I want to get
Speaker 2: into how their presence got minimized over time as well.
Speaker 1: Actually, okay, so like bring us in. So where we
Speaker 1: left off was this extraordinary timeline of how we got
Speaker 1: to this present place, but we still don't really understand
Speaker 1: this group of young white males that are seemingly misogynist,
Speaker 1: racist in cell types who have created like this network,
Speaker 1: this web that is able to coordinate and take people
Speaker 1: down in various ways. So like, give us the insight
Speaker 1: into these people.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, so I appreciate you having me back on to
Speaker 2: wrap up this discussion if you're listening right now and
Speaker 2: you want more detailed context for what's going on, the
Speaker 2: September sixteenth episode of WOKF From Gamergate to Trump was
Speaker 2: really my full primer on what I'm about to discuss.
Speaker 2: But the Cliff Snowes version of that conversation is in
Speaker 2: twenty thirteen, many online social factors such as the rise
Speaker 2: of populist feminism, the rise of non traditional video games
Speaker 2: that are more focused on narrative and more focused on
Speaker 2: social issues, and a history of gamers people who play
Speaker 2: video games and identify as gamers feeling like they are
Speaker 2: a not oppressed people but socially ostracized, you know, So
Speaker 2: all of those things conflated. And then the spark that
Speaker 2: blew this up was a jilted X of a woman
Speaker 2: presenting person who worked in the video game industry and
Speaker 2: so that create an online harassment campaign, which at first
Speaker 2: was called quinspiracy and then became known as gamergait. As
Speaker 2: much as they denied that it was coordinated, it was
Speaker 2: a coordinated harassment campaign not just against this one person,
Speaker 2: but against multiple women and fem presenting people who worked
Speaker 2: in the video game industry, the tech industry, and the
Speaker 2: gaming and tech online journalism space as well. So that
Speaker 2: started in twenty thirteen, really blew up through twenty fourteen,
Speaker 2: and then continued through twenty fifteen, aided very largely by
Speaker 2: articles being published on Breitbart, which was being operated by
Speaker 2: Steve Bannon at the time.
Speaker 1: So what a tangled web we weave.
Speaker 2: Everything is connected. We have to have context, like the
Speaker 2: coconut tree, like.
Speaker 1: It's so true, because like it's like you pull one thread,
Speaker 1: which I think is like, oh, this misogyny that's also
Speaker 1: a present in the gaming community, and here are these
Speaker 1: examples of how this happened. But then when you pull
Speaker 1: the thread, you have all of these characters that we've
Speaker 1: been talking about on WOKF but in a different context.
Speaker 1: So tell us about Steve Bannon's involvement here, and then
Speaker 1: why it's necessary for his involvement to then create this
Speaker 1: wing of the MAGA movement.
Speaker 2: Absolutely so. Steve Bannon, if you don't remember or aren't
Speaker 2: familiar with the name, was a operator, and I believe
Speaker 2: he had become at this point the owner or co
Speaker 2: owner of bright Bart News, which was a blog, not
Speaker 2: a newspaper or legitimate news source, but it was called
Speaker 2: bright Bart News. It was a right wing hate blog
Speaker 2: that was at least infamous among people on the left
Speaker 2: for how extreme they were, as well as people on
Speaker 2: the right, at least people on the online right what
Speaker 2: became known as the alt right. And I should say
Speaker 2: actually that Breitbart was essentially a funneling mechanism for the
Speaker 2: alt right, because it took people online who already had
Speaker 2: antisocial notions, misogynous notions, racist notions, all these kind of things,
Speaker 2: notions of hate, and brought them into this space where
Speaker 2: those notions of hate could be stoked by having headlines
Speaker 2: about things they're interested in, like video gaming attech. So
Speaker 2: Steve Bannon hired a writer named Steve Vann, hired someone
Speaker 2: who writes words named Milo Unopolis to write these articles
Speaker 2: about Other people wrote them too, but Milo was a
Speaker 2: really big figure in writing these articles on Breitbart, which
Speaker 2: Steve Bannon literally once called the platform for the alt right,
Speaker 2: and at the same time this was happening, I was
Speaker 2: reminded that there was a man named Mark Cernovich. Do
Speaker 2: you remember him?
Speaker 1: No, no, I don't so.
Speaker 2: Mark Cernovich was in early one of those people early
Speaker 2: online who was pro hashtag gamer gait, along with some
Speaker 2: other people like an actor from Firefly and all this
Speaker 2: other stuff. But Milo Unopolis was in Breitbart at the
Speaker 2: same time. Mike Cernovich was plowing a crusade against the
Speaker 2: mainstream media from a right wing perspective. He was a
Speaker 2: person who would call CNN the Clinton News Network. He
Speaker 2: was an online right wing extremist. So he was someone
Speaker 2: who early on said he was pro gamergate and would
Speaker 2: post things about it, and again bringing those people in,
Speaker 2: bringing people in who are interested in this, and again,
Speaker 2: if you want to find out why people were so
Speaker 2: interested in Gamergate, you got to listen to the last episode.
Speaker 2: So he takes this population that's already primed for hate
Speaker 2: and then brings them into the Trump world and the
Speaker 2: anti Clinton world and the anti democratic world and the
Speaker 2: anti mainstream media world in a way that is very
Speaker 2: different than the way that you tak against the mainstream media.
Speaker 1: It's just wild to me. I guess I'm still stuck
Speaker 1: on the how did we get here? But I don't
Speaker 1: want to like Boo labor that. Like, I just say
Speaker 1: that as like a how the fuck did we get here?
Speaker 2: I hate to give the man credit, but it really
Speaker 2: was a master stroke of strategy by Steve Bannon. I
Speaker 2: really hate to say it, but like some people saw
Speaker 2: it happening in real time, and it's like watching a
Speaker 2: car crash when you see something happening that you have
Speaker 2: no control over, and it's like, oh, this guy is
Speaker 2: coordinating all these different anti social movements in this space
Speaker 2: that not everybody knows about. If you try to talk
Speaker 2: to normal people about it, they might look at you
Speaker 2: some kind of way because you're telling them about all
Speaker 2: this stuff that's happening on the internet, and they don't
Speaker 2: think it's quote unquote real. They don't think it's important.
Speaker 2: Let me just mention real quick, A lot of people
Speaker 2: don't think online harassment is a real issue, is a serious.
Speaker 1: Issue, except for those that are actually caught up in
Speaker 1: it right and have their lives up ended.
Speaker 2: It leads to real world harassment. People who exist online
Speaker 2: are people who exist in the real world, and people
Speaker 2: who make threats online can absolutely translate those threats into
Speaker 2: real world action. So let's make that perfectly clear.
Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred person.
Speaker 2: But that's part of it too for me, is that
Speaker 2: you do then do this, all this organizing in an
Speaker 2: online social space that not everybody takes seriously, and by
Speaker 2: the time you can take it seriously, like we're discussing,
Speaker 2: it's already in some ways, it's already happened. I don't
Speaker 2: want to say it's already too late, but it's already happened.
Speaker 2: Twenty sixteen already happened. All the conversions of these movements
Speaker 2: into the alt right and then into what is now
Speaker 2: called maga has already happened. We're here, We're in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty four, and.
Speaker 1: I feel like by the time that the mainstream and
Speaker 1: I consider myself in the mainstream population because this is
Speaker 1: not my niche and not my world, by the time
Speaker 1: I'm hipped to something like this, we've been a decade
Speaker 1: in it. Steve Bannon, to your point, had eyes on
Speaker 1: what can be named as a disaffected group of young
Speaker 1: men that are the same that have been targeted with
Speaker 1: YouTube personalities that listen to Joe Rogan, like the same
Speaker 1: kind of angry young white men who don't know where
Speaker 1: their place is in a changing world where they are
Speaker 1: no longer considered like white men still run every fucking thing,
Speaker 1: but like there is just more people of color, more women,
Speaker 1: more equity, but we're still not at the equitable fifty
Speaker 1: to fifty split of how C suites of how business
Speaker 1: and industry run. But yet Steve Bannon and the MAGA
Speaker 1: misogynist sexist movement is able to capitalize on this group.
Speaker 1: And I guess my question, Andrew is like how and
Speaker 1: why and is there a way out?
Speaker 2: So I think the why of it for me as
Speaker 2: a white person is on standable. It's not relatable to me,
Speaker 2: but it is understandable white people and white men even
Speaker 2: more so white CIS men, Like the more privilege you
Speaker 2: add to it, the more this multiplies, I would say,
Speaker 2: or at least you know, adds, multiplies, exponential, whatever math
Speaker 2: you want to do on it. White mail cis straight.
Speaker 2: You start stacking all these on. There's a lot of
Speaker 2: reactionary feelings there. There's a lot of sensitivity there, to
Speaker 2: be honest, and you know, traditional masculinity is not about sensitivity,
Speaker 2: but a lot of people who are traditionally masculine are
Speaker 2: the most sensitive people because they haven't had to exist
Speaker 2: in a world where their existence is threatened in any way,
Speaker 2: even like the remotest possible way. So, if you're growing
Speaker 2: up in a world where you see yourself in everything,
Speaker 2: and the protagonist of everything you've ever every piece of
Speaker 2: media you've ever engaged with, the main character is a
Speaker 2: white man, and he's presumably it doesn't even have to
Speaker 2: be explicitly stated. You can just assume that he's also
Speaker 2: sis and straight. And this has only started to change
Speaker 2: in take it for granted. This has really only started
Speaker 2: to change in the last decade or fifteen years in
Speaker 2: a major way. Yes, there was representation before that, but
Speaker 2: like in a major way. We've started to see like
Speaker 2: Star Wars only got a black protagonist in twenty seventeen.
Speaker 1: And we saw how that went out.
Speaker 2: I have a lot of thoughts on that as well.
Speaker 2: That might need to be a different podcast anyway. So
Speaker 2: the why of it is white people are reactionary. White
Speaker 2: men are reactionary white men on the internet who are
Speaker 2: sensitive about not every single video game character being a
Speaker 2: white Man anymore and let them, you know, making Laura
Speaker 2: Croft skinny. They're a very reactionary population. And Steve Bannon
Speaker 2: recognized this. I gave this quote last time, but I'll
Speaker 2: read it again. This is a quote from Steve Bannon.
Speaker 2: I realized mylow connect with these kids right away. You
Speaker 2: can activate that army. They come in through Gamergate or whatever,
Speaker 2: and then get turned onto politics and Trump. So there's
Speaker 2: a lot going on there in his mind. In Steve
Speaker 2: Bannon's mind, he calls them kids, these are seeds. He's
Speaker 2: not going to the boomers, He's going to the young people.
Speaker 2: What's the article we were discussing many gen z men
Speaker 2: feel left behind. Some see Trump as an answer. They
Speaker 2: get them young. That's any marketing. Really, why did they
Speaker 2: used to market McDonald so much to children? You get
Speaker 2: them while they're young, You activate that army they come
Speaker 2: in through Gamergate or whatever. And it is worth noting
Speaker 2: this wasn't just Gamergate. We talked about this a bit
Speaker 2: last time, but there was the rising in cell culture
Speaker 2: online that got funneled through this. There are other anti
Speaker 2: social movements like I mentioned online that got funneled through
Speaker 2: this and then get turned onto politics. And Trump, because
Speaker 2: it's not just activating them politically that matters, of course,
Speaker 2: but activating them towards not even just the Republican Party.
Speaker 2: Steve Bannon's goal. He was not a Republican strategist. He
Speaker 2: wanted people to be part of this extremist movement that honestly,
Speaker 2: in a lot of ways, Donald Trump was kind of
Speaker 2: just a tool for right, Like Donald Trump is a
Speaker 2: hateful man and all that other stuff. I'm not trying
Speaker 2: to absolve Trump, but behind the scenes twenty sixteen, I
Speaker 2: think it needs to really be remembered that he had
Speaker 2: a lot of people operating around him, using him as
Speaker 2: a pawn for their own means. And Steve Bannon was
Speaker 2: one of the biggest Breitbart gamer gait maga. These were
Speaker 2: all tools to the same These were all means to
Speaker 2: the same end. And we're now living in Steve Bannon's endgame.
Speaker 1: Yo. I mean I needed you to roll that back, Andrew,
Speaker 1: because I literally, like my heart just stopped when you
Speaker 1: said we're playing in Steve Bannon's end game. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: keep going, because I'm like, you're right, because we're still
Speaker 1: and by we, not you, but I mean like the
Speaker 1: mainstream and the Democratic Party is still ten years behind
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what the rules of this new
Speaker 1: world political order is. Meanwhile, they are activating all of
Speaker 1: these different cells. Yep.
Speaker 2: And it's not just gamer Gate. I don't want to
Speaker 2: spend all this time going Democrats and American liberals have
Speaker 2: missed the boat, but missing the boat on this missing
Speaker 2: the boat on the whole rise of the alt right
Speaker 2: into what it's become echoes, missing the boat on the
Speaker 2: anti abortion movement and how deep that went, and missing
Speaker 2: the boat on the fight for the courts, and how
Speaker 2: deep that went. And I think that I can't speak
Speaker 2: so much to the political world because I'm not in it.
Speaker 2: But my experience with this in the mainstream media world,
Speaker 2: where we both were at one point was trying to
Speaker 2: sound the alarms to this was like the people. It
Speaker 2: felt like being a person on the Titanic saying that
Speaker 2: there's icebergs in the water. There was a indifference towards it.
Speaker 2: There was that attitude of this is online. It was
Speaker 2: in some ways too late because Trump had already been
Speaker 2: elected when this was happening from my perspective, but even
Speaker 2: then I had wanted to connect the dots like I'm
Speaker 2: doing right now, but I wanted to do it in
Speaker 2: twenty sixteen or twenty seventeen, and the feedback I received
Speaker 2: was this is you know, this is too niche, this
Speaker 2: is the tech world, this is online, and there hadn't
Speaker 2: been a lot of mainstream reporting on it, and there
Speaker 2: still isn't. But there's what sparked this conversation was you
Speaker 2: sent me that New York Times article and I said, Wow,
Speaker 2: the media is finally reporting on this, huh.
Speaker 1: And I was just like, wait, what you know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying like, there is just I think the depths
Speaker 1: of which this goes and how far back, like we
Speaker 1: in the liberal kind of democratic sphere want to believe
Speaker 1: that Maga happened overnight and want to believe that these
Speaker 1: weren't plans that much in the way to your point
Speaker 1: of the overturning of Ruby Wade were fifty years in
Speaker 1: the making. You took us back on the first episode
Speaker 1: thirty years of when the seeds of this were being planted.
Speaker 1: And so what I realize is that then nefarious nature
Speaker 1: can we continue to say like, oh, it doesn't know
Speaker 1: any depths and it's because it was it's a project,
Speaker 1: a thirty forty to fifty year long project to dismantle
Speaker 1: democracy from the inside out. That you weren't going to
Speaker 1: need foreign agents. You were just going to need to
Speaker 1: activate disgruntled young white men.
Speaker 2: Yep. And I you know, even giving a charitable reading,
Speaker 2: which is the stuff that happened in the nineties with
Speaker 2: the Senate committees and the stuff that happened in the
Speaker 2: two thousands with Jack Thompson, those don't even have to
Speaker 2: be part of any sort of grand plan because the
Speaker 2: fact remains, as you said, that these things even coincidentally,
Speaker 2: I'm a population, a sub group of people in society
Speaker 2: to be a certain way, and behave a certain way,
Speaker 2: and be reactionary in a very strong way. That then
Speaker 2: someone like Steve Bannon, a strategist who isn't I don't
Speaker 2: remember the name, but there was it, Leonard Leo, like
Speaker 2: Steve Vann, is not the first of his kind either,
Speaker 2: but he is someone who understands the human condition and
Speaker 2: uses their understanding of the human condition for very nefarious means.
Speaker 1: And I think that that's the thing that we have
Speaker 1: not really fully been able to tap into, is the
Speaker 1: psychology of the thing. And that's where I feel to
Speaker 1: your point, Steve Bannon and the rest of them have
Speaker 1: been able to do right, Like they've been able to
Speaker 1: really get into the psychology where kind of I don't know,
Speaker 1: maybe to our detriment, and I don't think that it's
Speaker 1: a big maybe we were like the world is changing,
Speaker 1: move on, catch up it.
Speaker 2: It is flawed thinking on any political side to have
Speaker 2: the feeling of most people think the way I do.
Speaker 2: You see it manifest in Trump people with like he
Speaker 2: says what everyone's thinking, and it's like, I'm I'm not
Speaker 2: thinking that stuff, but they think it is because they
Speaker 2: think that way. I think how that manifests on the
Speaker 2: liberal and left wing side, unfortunately, is I can't believe
Speaker 2: people would think that way. How could people think this way?
Speaker 2: How could people have that much hate in their hearts
Speaker 2: or whatever? And it's not even necessarily all the time.
Speaker 2: It definitely is for some people. But it's not even
Speaker 2: like all these people like wake up and think about
Speaker 2: how freaking racist they are. It's that they have a
Speaker 2: reactionary Again, they're so used to living in a world
Speaker 2: and the world is changing, and rather that the only
Speaker 2: way that they have to cope with that is projecting
Speaker 2: this negativity onto whatever they perceive is threatening their existence
Speaker 2: as a dominant force in society, an unquestioningly dominant force
Speaker 2: in society. And if there is nowhere else for them
Speaker 2: to turn to, they're going to turn to the people
Speaker 2: who say welcome in. We hate those slur slur slur too,
Speaker 2: and just make those people worse because they're primed to
Speaker 2: be made worse.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's something that is quite extraordinary. And while I
Speaker 1: would say just like kind of pushing us into the
Speaker 1: present where the Harris Walt's team is trying to tap
Speaker 1: into this place of hopefulness and possibility, you can't at
Speaker 1: the same time then ignore and I hate to fucking
Speaker 1: trust me, like the quote unquote economic anxiety, the racial anxiety,
Speaker 1: all of these things that are coded for racism. I
Speaker 1: hate to even give any attention air and oxygen to it.
Speaker 1: But there is something to what would have been or
Speaker 1: what should be the right way, or at least an
Speaker 1: initial step in bringing these kind of young men into
Speaker 1: the fold. Or is it now? I guess is it
Speaker 1: just too late?
Speaker 2: I think for young people it's not too late. I
Speaker 2: don't know about the people who are affected by this
Speaker 2: ten years ago, because now a decade has gone on,
Speaker 2: and if someone's in MAGA world and someone's that entrenched
Speaker 2: in it, I genuinely don't know if you can get
Speaker 2: that person out of that type of thinking without some
Speaker 2: like really serious one on one intervention, which is not
Speaker 2: what we're talking about. But with people who are younger,
Speaker 2: like the gen Z men, who feel quote unquote left behind,
Speaker 2: like left behind you could take as another sort of
Speaker 2: code like economic anxiety and all that other stuff, but
Speaker 2: I think it does speak to that perceived real feeling
Speaker 2: that they have, Like if you feel something, then it's
Speaker 2: real to you. And there's that feeling even if they
Speaker 2: can't place why it is of like my dominance is
Speaker 2: coming to an end or already has come to an end,
Speaker 2: And it's not a good thing, in my opinion, to
Speaker 2: want to be dominant in society in that way. But
Speaker 2: there is that very real feeling of like the world
Speaker 2: is changing and I feel left behind. So let's put
Speaker 2: it that way. How do you help someone when they
Speaker 2: feel like the world is changing and they're being left behind.
Speaker 2: My feeling is you show them that they're not going
Speaker 2: to be left behind by the world that's coming or
Speaker 2: the world that's already here. You show them there's a
Speaker 2: place for you in this world. The place for you
Speaker 2: in this world is not lesser. The place for you
Speaker 2: in this world is equal. The place for you in
Speaker 2: this world is equitable. And by the way, the right
Speaker 2: wing is going against the word equity and have been
Speaker 2: for the last few years, because that's really what's trying
Speaker 2: to be achieved. There's been an understanding of the difference
Speaker 2: between equality and equity, and so now they don't even
Speaker 2: want young people to find it desirable to exist in
Speaker 2: an equitable world. But I think unfortunately, I say unfortunately,
Speaker 2: because when you're in a place and you understand something,
Speaker 2: you don't want to have to do the work of
Speaker 2: explaining it to someone else and explain to someone why,
Speaker 2: like you want to live in an equitable world. Inequitable
Speaker 2: world is good for all of us. But that is
Speaker 2: the work, in my opinion, that has to be done.
Speaker 2: You don't need to coddle people, you don't need to
Speaker 2: make people still feel like. You don't need to protect
Speaker 2: people's privilege. But I keep saying people, I mean white people,
Speaker 2: I mean mostly white men. You don't need to coddle
Speaker 2: them or anything else. But I do think that you
Speaker 2: need to welcome people in and show them that this
Speaker 2: world has a space for them. There's a conversation now
Speaker 2: about feminism and inclusivity. Jonathan had mentioned the like feminist
Speaker 2: phrasing of like I hate men, and men are like
Speaker 2: this and painting men with a broad brush. And I
Speaker 2: don't necessarily, like find that so problematic, but I do
Speaker 2: feel like movements like that, like social movements for positive change,
Speaker 2: like feminism and like pro black movements, can bring men
Speaker 2: and white people and white men in in a way
Speaker 2: that's like, you're coming along with us. The world that
Speaker 2: we're advocating for is a better world for all of us.
Speaker 2: Come along with us, help us make that world better.
Speaker 2: And it's a tough needle to thread to say, like,
Speaker 2: men have created all these problems, white people have created
Speaker 2: all these problems, help us solve them, because those problems
Speaker 2: also have made your life worse. But I genuinely think
Speaker 2: that that's part of the work that has to be done.
Speaker 2: And I realize I'm saying that as a white man,
Speaker 2: but as someone who lives in the world as a
Speaker 2: white man and interacts with a lot of white men,
Speaker 2: I think leaving white men out is only going to
Speaker 2: make white men feel left out of the world that's
Speaker 2: being created, in the world that we want to form,
Speaker 2: because otherwise the world that gets formed is the world
Speaker 2: that they get called into. I mean, it's just like
Speaker 2: children are the future. Teach them well them and let
Speaker 2: them lead the way.
Speaker 1: That's the problem is that, like evidently we're they're not
Speaker 1: teaching well.
Speaker 2: Oh, And there's so much that can be said about that,
Speaker 2: and the schools and the right wing and the right
Speaker 2: wing interest in schools and George Bush and no Child
Speaker 2: left Behind and how George Bush got into office. Dan Yelle,
Speaker 2: we got back to Bush v. Gore again. I do
Speaker 2: that anytime I appear on anything. It's kind of like
Speaker 2: and who was at the Brooks Brothers riot? Now a
Speaker 2: Supreme Court justice? Anyway?
Speaker 1: A seven degrees of separation. It's like the game that
Speaker 1: was played in the eighties, but it's with like the election.
Speaker 2: So how do democrats do they Democrats need to start
Speaker 2: paying more attention to things when they start happening, and
Speaker 2: not ten or twenty years later when they've already happened,
Speaker 2: and it's arguably too late. Hopefully not.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's not too like I guess
Speaker 1: that's The problem is that while I feel like we're
Speaker 1: unearthing these things right now, like the mainstream is in
Speaker 1: unearthing these things right now, I don't want to believe
Speaker 1: that it's too late to clean up this mess because
Speaker 1: I feel like if we do, if we're just like,
Speaker 1: well fuck it. Steve Beannon had like a twenty thirty
Speaker 1: year head start, so these people are gone.
Speaker 2: Right, We've lost the courts, so we can't keep fighting
Speaker 2: for it.
Speaker 1: Right, so then we just acquiesced, which is part of
Speaker 1: their plan. So I'm just I'm kind of in the
Speaker 1: place of we need to understand this, We need to
Speaker 1: continue having these really important conversations so that we don't
Speaker 1: leave groups that are susceptible to MAGA, because it's not
Speaker 1: going to go away. I guess that's my point of
Speaker 1: how like maga's not going away just because we have
Speaker 1: an election in November, if by the grace of God,
Speaker 1: Kamala Harrison Tim Walls are able to win, they'll just retreat,
Speaker 1: clean up, and repackage with a new candidate. But the
Speaker 1: same principles, is same network, the same web that they
Speaker 1: have built will remain. So it's like the conversation needs
Speaker 1: to continue, Like these are activated. Dare I say, white
Speaker 1: supremact terrorists cells that are activated one after the other.
Speaker 1: And just because you play whack a mole and you
Speaker 1: hit one down, it doesn't like you need to pull
Speaker 1: it out from.
Speaker 2: The bottom, activated in a coordinated way.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I appreciate you so much bringing this to my attention,
Speaker 1: to our attention, to the audience's attention, because it's like
Speaker 1: a conversation that I want to keep having because there's
Speaker 1: just so much there, so less thoughts to you.
Speaker 2: I've been thinking about action points since we've been talking,
Speaker 2: and Democrats need to stop shutting out young people from
Speaker 2: everything from movements from like official movements, from the party,
Speaker 2: from narratives from democratic media. It's not the Clinton years anymore.
Speaker 2: Democrats need to live in the modern world and welcome
Speaker 2: younger people and welcome younger voices in a broader way
Speaker 2: than they're currently doing right now, because I feel that
Speaker 2: otherwise the same cycle of not recognizing patterns until it's
Speaker 2: too late will continue to happen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's truly, it's extraordinary, and I so appreciate you
Speaker 1: for bringing us this conversation. We need to have more
Speaker 1: of these so that people get a sense of what's
Speaker 1: going on, and this, you know, frankly to the listener
Speaker 1: is like this could be your kids, and like your grandkids,
Speaker 1: and like your roommates, folks that you don't really know,
Speaker 1: but you're like, something seems off. We're not having the
Speaker 1: conversations with each other. And I think that that's extraordinarily important.
Speaker 2: I'll button real quick to say that, actually because I
Speaker 2: talked about one on one intervention before and to go
Speaker 2: from systematic to the listener. Talk your loved ones, talk
Speaker 2: to your family, talk to your neighbors, talk to people
Speaker 2: in your communities, and don't start arguments if you can
Speaker 2: help it. But also don't just passively accept that they
Speaker 2: have hate in their heart. Bring them in and try,
Speaker 2: if you haven't already, try to help them see the
Speaker 2: light before you see them as a lost cause.
Speaker 1: One hundred percent. Andrew Marcello, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: coming from behind the scenes to the microphone to have
Speaker 1: this conversation on wokaf with me. Greatly appreciate it. That
Speaker 1: is it for me today, dear friends on wokaypp as always,
Speaker 1: power to the people and to all the people. Power,
Speaker 1: get woke and stay woke as fuck.