WEBVTT - Notions of Hate 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:14.760 Good morning, Peevesen, Welcome to wok F Daily with me 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:18.720 your Girl Daniel Moody pre recording from the Home Bunker, Folks. 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:23.000 As I said yesterday, I am away for a trip 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:26.799 to London to join Meddie Hassan on one of his 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:31.600 infamous debates panels that he does and I am super 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:37.240 super excited to be joining him. So today, on today's episode, 0:00:37.680 --> 0:00:42.520 we are doing part two of my in depth conversation 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:47.600 with the fabulous producer of wok F Daily, Andrew Marcello. 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:51.920 If you remember, in part one we went through kind 0:00:51.960 --> 0:01:01.120 of this incredible web of gen z white male gamers 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:07.840 and how they have become fertile ground for MAGA, and 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:11.240 how this did not just happen overnight, it actually has 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:15.960 been years, if not decades into the making, and what 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:21.440 this could potentially mean as we move into not only 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:25.640 the ferocious sprint of this election, but in general the 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:30.319 sanctity and security of our democracy going forward. So Andrew 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:34.720 walks us through this world again, giving us some insights 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:39.360 that are just frankly mind blowing. And my feeling is that, 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:42.120 like we all need to be aware of what is 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:46.400 happening and how Steve Bannon and others are tapping into 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:52.600 this cult of personality and essentially weaponizing this group against democracy, 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:57.600 against progress, against a multiracial democracy, and more so, that 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:05.360 conversation with Andrew is coming up next, folks. I am 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:10.600 so happy to be rejoined on Woke app Daily by 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:15.880 my producer extraordinaire Andrew Marcello, who if you remember, we 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:20.960 are doing a two part episode on the rise of 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:27.400 oh God, right wing gen z but basically through the 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:32.800 world of gaming. And Andrew gave us in our first 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:37.160 episode of this two part series a real deep dive 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:40.320 in timeline that took us back to the nineties in 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:45.040 terms of like when this world was created, who's responsible 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:48.680 for it, and kind of moving us through to today 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:53.160 to the present day, where there's a particular set of 0:02:53.680 --> 0:03:00.640 white young male gamers that are I guess, what would 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:03.720 you say, Andrew, like a foundational part of like the 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:07.280 Maga movement, an arm of the Maga movement. 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:10.079 Yeah, they're definitely a wing and I want to get 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:12.560 into how their presence got minimized over time as well. 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:16.520 Actually, okay, so like bring us in. So where we 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:22.520 left off was this extraordinary timeline of how we got 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:26.920 to this present place, but we still don't really understand 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:37.880 this group of young white males that are seemingly misogynist, 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:44.320 racist in cell types who have created like this network, 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:48.600 this web that is able to coordinate and take people 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:52.240 down in various ways. So like, give us the insight 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:53.240 into these people. 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:57.480 Absolutely, so I appreciate you having me back on to 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:01.560 wrap up this discussion if you're listening right now and 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:04.360 you want more detailed context for what's going on, the 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:08.400 September sixteenth episode of WOKF From Gamergate to Trump was 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:10.720 really my full primer on what I'm about to discuss. 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:15.120 But the Cliff Snowes version of that conversation is in 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:20.440 twenty thirteen, many online social factors such as the rise 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:26.120 of populist feminism, the rise of non traditional video games 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:28.200 that are more focused on narrative and more focused on 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:33.159 social issues, and a history of gamers people who play 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:38.200 video games and identify as gamers feeling like they are 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:45.719 a not oppressed people but socially ostracized, you know, So 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:49.599 all of those things conflated. And then the spark that 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:55.120 blew this up was a jilted X of a woman 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:59.400 presenting person who worked in the video game industry and 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:02.640 so that create an online harassment campaign, which at first 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:06.960 was called quinspiracy and then became known as gamergait. As 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:09.400 much as they denied that it was coordinated, it was 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:12.840 a coordinated harassment campaign not just against this one person, 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:16.960 but against multiple women and fem presenting people who worked 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:19.880 in the video game industry, the tech industry, and the 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:25.400 gaming and tech online journalism space as well. So that 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:29.080 started in twenty thirteen, really blew up through twenty fourteen, 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:34.960 and then continued through twenty fifteen, aided very largely by 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:39.680 articles being published on Breitbart, which was being operated by 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:41.200 Steve Bannon at the time. 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:45.839 So what a tangled web we weave. 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:48.960 Everything is connected. We have to have context, like the 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:50.560 coconut tree, like. 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:55.039 It's so true, because like it's like you pull one thread, 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:59.120 which I think is like, oh, this misogyny that's also 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:01.800 a present in the gaming community, and here are these 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:04.200 examples of how this happened. But then when you pull 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:07.680 the thread, you have all of these characters that we've 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:11.040 been talking about on WOKF but in a different context. 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:17.039 So tell us about Steve Bannon's involvement here, and then 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:23.600 why it's necessary for his involvement to then create this 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:25.760 wing of the MAGA movement. 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:30.760 Absolutely so. Steve Bannon, if you don't remember or aren't 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:35.680 familiar with the name, was a operator, and I believe 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:38.200 he had become at this point the owner or co 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:41.600 owner of bright Bart News, which was a blog, not 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:44.920 a newspaper or legitimate news source, but it was called 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:47.400 bright Bart News. It was a right wing hate blog 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:52.520 that was at least infamous among people on the left 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:55.360 for how extreme they were, as well as people on 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:57.960 the right, at least people on the online right what 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:01.560 became known as the alt right. And I should say 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:04.520 actually that Breitbart was essentially a funneling mechanism for the 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:07.520 alt right, because it took people online who already had 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:13.200 antisocial notions, misogynous notions, racist notions, all these kind of things, 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:17.280 notions of hate, and brought them into this space where 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:21.720 those notions of hate could be stoked by having headlines 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:25.800 about things they're interested in, like video gaming attech. So 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:30.800 Steve Bannon hired a writer named Steve Vann, hired someone 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:35.560 who writes words named Milo Unopolis to write these articles 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:37.760 about Other people wrote them too, but Milo was a 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:43.040 really big figure in writing these articles on Breitbart, which 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:45.720 Steve Bannon literally once called the platform for the alt right, 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:47.760 and at the same time this was happening, I was 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:50.440 reminded that there was a man named Mark Cernovich. Do 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:51.440 you remember him? 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:53.120 No, no, I don't so. 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:56.400 Mark Cernovich was in early one of those people early 0:07:56.440 --> 0:08:01.080 online who was pro hashtag gamer gait, along with some 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:03.840 other people like an actor from Firefly and all this 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:06.760 other stuff. But Milo Unopolis was in Breitbart at the 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:14.880 same time. Mike Cernovich was plowing a crusade against the 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:18.520 mainstream media from a right wing perspective. He was a 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:22.160 person who would call CNN the Clinton News Network. He 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:25.600 was an online right wing extremist. So he was someone 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:28.400 who early on said he was pro gamergate and would 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:31.240 post things about it, and again bringing those people in, 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:34.160 bringing people in who are interested in this, and again, 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:35.600 if you want to find out why people were so 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:38.079 interested in Gamergate, you got to listen to the last episode. 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:43.800 So he takes this population that's already primed for hate 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:47.480 and then brings them into the Trump world and the 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:50.400 anti Clinton world and the anti democratic world and the 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:53.800 anti mainstream media world in a way that is very 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:58.000 different than the way that you tak against the mainstream media. 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:01.760 It's just wild to me. I guess I'm still stuck 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:03.920 on the how did we get here? But I don't 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:06.040 want to like Boo labor that. Like, I just say 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:08.800 that as like a how the fuck did we get here? 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:11.959 I hate to give the man credit, but it really 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:15.360 was a master stroke of strategy by Steve Bannon. I 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:17.640 really hate to say it, but like some people saw 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:21.320 it happening in real time, and it's like watching a 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:24.440 car crash when you see something happening that you have 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:27.120 no control over, and it's like, oh, this guy is 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:30.959 coordinating all these different anti social movements in this space 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:34.840 that not everybody knows about. If you try to talk 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:37.199 to normal people about it, they might look at you 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:40.040 some kind of way because you're telling them about all 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:41.679 this stuff that's happening on the internet, and they don't 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:44.000 think it's quote unquote real. They don't think it's important. 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:46.000 Let me just mention real quick, A lot of people 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:48.920 don't think online harassment is a real issue, is a serious. 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.000 Issue, except for those that are actually caught up in 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:52.800 it right and have their lives up ended. 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:55.800 It leads to real world harassment. People who exist online 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:57.640 are people who exist in the real world, and people 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:00.800 who make threats online can absolutely translate those threats into 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.080 real world action. So let's make that perfectly clear. 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:04.520 Yeah, one hundred person. 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:06.079 But that's part of it too for me, is that 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:08.760 you do then do this, all this organizing in an 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:12.079 online social space that not everybody takes seriously, and by 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:14.920 the time you can take it seriously, like we're discussing, 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:17.800 it's already in some ways, it's already happened. I don't 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:19.920 want to say it's already too late, but it's already happened. 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:23.760 Twenty sixteen already happened. All the conversions of these movements 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:26.160 into the alt right and then into what is now 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:30.319 called maga has already happened. We're here, We're in twenty 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:31.719 twenty four, and. 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:35.160 I feel like by the time that the mainstream and 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:39.480 I consider myself in the mainstream population because this is 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:42.000 not my niche and not my world, by the time 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:45.439 I'm hipped to something like this, we've been a decade 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:52.120 in it. Steve Bannon, to your point, had eyes on 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:57.360 what can be named as a disaffected group of young 0:10:57.440 --> 0:11:01.120 men that are the same that have been targeted with 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:05.240 YouTube personalities that listen to Joe Rogan, like the same 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:10.520 kind of angry young white men who don't know where 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:15.200 their place is in a changing world where they are 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:20.000 no longer considered like white men still run every fucking thing, 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:24.680 but like there is just more people of color, more women, 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:29.480 more equity, but we're still not at the equitable fifty 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:33.720 to fifty split of how C suites of how business 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:39.360 and industry run. But yet Steve Bannon and the MAGA 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:46.679 misogynist sexist movement is able to capitalize on this group. 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:51.280 And I guess my question, Andrew is like how and 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:55.920 why and is there a way out? 0:11:56.880 --> 0:11:58.719 So I think the why of it for me as 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:02.320 a white person is on standable. It's not relatable to me, 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:06.080 but it is understandable white people and white men even 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:08.040 more so white CIS men, Like the more privilege you 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:10.440 add to it, the more this multiplies, I would say, 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:13.480 or at least you know, adds, multiplies, exponential, whatever math 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:17.680 you want to do on it. White mail cis straight. 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:20.560 You start stacking all these on. There's a lot of 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:24.560 reactionary feelings there. There's a lot of sensitivity there, to 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:28.480 be honest, and you know, traditional masculinity is not about sensitivity, 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:30.920 but a lot of people who are traditionally masculine are 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:34.840 the most sensitive people because they haven't had to exist 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:37.680 in a world where their existence is threatened in any way, 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:41.600 even like the remotest possible way. So, if you're growing 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:44.319 up in a world where you see yourself in everything, 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:47.480 and the protagonist of everything you've ever every piece of 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:50.960 media you've ever engaged with, the main character is a 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:53.719 white man, and he's presumably it doesn't even have to 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:56.000 be explicitly stated. You can just assume that he's also 0:12:56.120 --> 0:12:59.480 sis and straight. And this has only started to change 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:01.640 in take it for granted. This has really only started 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:03.520 to change in the last decade or fifteen years in 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:06.800 a major way. Yes, there was representation before that, but 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:09.440 like in a major way. We've started to see like 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:12.960 Star Wars only got a black protagonist in twenty seventeen. 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:14.320 And we saw how that went out. 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:16.280 I have a lot of thoughts on that as well. 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:19.840 That might need to be a different podcast anyway. So 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:22.320 the why of it is white people are reactionary. White 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:24.360 men are reactionary white men on the internet who are 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:27.640 sensitive about not every single video game character being a 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:31.080 white Man anymore and let them, you know, making Laura 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:35.079 Croft skinny. They're a very reactionary population. And Steve Bannon 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:37.160 recognized this. I gave this quote last time, but I'll 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:39.320 read it again. This is a quote from Steve Bannon. 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:43.560 I realized mylow connect with these kids right away. You 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:47.200 can activate that army. They come in through Gamergate or whatever, 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:50.520 and then get turned onto politics and Trump. So there's 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:53.040 a lot going on there in his mind. In Steve 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:57.520 Bannon's mind, he calls them kids, these are seeds. He's 0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:00.760 not going to the boomers, He's going to the young people. 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.600 What's the article we were discussing many gen z men 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:07.000 feel left behind. Some see Trump as an answer. They 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:11.280 get them young. That's any marketing. Really, why did they 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.800 used to market McDonald so much to children? You get 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:18.840 them while they're young, You activate that army they come 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:22.200 in through Gamergate or whatever. And it is worth noting 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:24.200 this wasn't just Gamergate. We talked about this a bit 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:27.000 last time, but there was the rising in cell culture 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:29.400 online that got funneled through this. There are other anti 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:31.960 social movements like I mentioned online that got funneled through 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:36.600 this and then get turned onto politics. And Trump, because 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:39.280 it's not just activating them politically that matters, of course, 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:42.920 but activating them towards not even just the Republican Party. 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:46.280 Steve Bannon's goal. He was not a Republican strategist. He 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:51.200 wanted people to be part of this extremist movement that honestly, 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:53.680 in a lot of ways, Donald Trump was kind of 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.240 just a tool for right, Like Donald Trump is a 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:58.080 hateful man and all that other stuff. I'm not trying 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:01.040 to absolve Trump, but behind the scenes twenty sixteen, I 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:04.120 think it needs to really be remembered that he had 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:07.040 a lot of people operating around him, using him as 0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:09.400 a pawn for their own means. And Steve Bannon was 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:15.000 one of the biggest Breitbart gamer gait maga. These were 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:18.560 all tools to the same These were all means to 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:22.800 the same end. And we're now living in Steve Bannon's endgame. 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:26.920 Yo. I mean I needed you to roll that back, Andrew, 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:32.960 because I literally, like my heart just stopped when you 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:39.000 said we're playing in Steve Bannon's end game. Oh my god, 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:43.920 keep going, because I'm like, you're right, because we're still 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:46.560 and by we, not you, but I mean like the 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:52.720 mainstream and the Democratic Party is still ten years behind 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:56.840 trying to figure out what the rules of this new 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:02.840 world political order is. Meanwhile, they are activating all of 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:04.920 these different cells. Yep. 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:09.200 And it's not just gamer Gate. I don't want to 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:13.600 spend all this time going Democrats and American liberals have 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:16.920 missed the boat, but missing the boat on this missing 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:18.720 the boat on the whole rise of the alt right 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:24.160 into what it's become echoes, missing the boat on the 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:28.600 anti abortion movement and how deep that went, and missing 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:31.480 the boat on the fight for the courts, and how 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:38.880 deep that went. And I think that I can't speak 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:41.080 so much to the political world because I'm not in it. 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:44.920 But my experience with this in the mainstream media world, 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:48.760 where we both were at one point was trying to 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:53.240 sound the alarms to this was like the people. It 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:56.200 felt like being a person on the Titanic saying that 0:16:56.240 --> 0:17:01.560 there's icebergs in the water. There was a indifference towards it. 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:05.560 There was that attitude of this is online. It was 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:07.240 in some ways too late because Trump had already been 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:10.080 elected when this was happening from my perspective, but even 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:11.880 then I had wanted to connect the dots like I'm 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:13.720 doing right now, but I wanted to do it in 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:17.440 twenty sixteen or twenty seventeen, and the feedback I received 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:20.479 was this is you know, this is too niche, this 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:23.680 is the tech world, this is online, and there hadn't 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:25.920 been a lot of mainstream reporting on it, and there 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:29.280 still isn't. But there's what sparked this conversation was you 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:31.720 sent me that New York Times article and I said, Wow, 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:33.919 the media is finally reporting on this, huh. 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:37.119 And I was just like, wait, what you know what 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:41.160 I'm saying like, there is just I think the depths 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:44.919 of which this goes and how far back, like we 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:50.440 in the liberal kind of democratic sphere want to believe 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:56.280 that Maga happened overnight and want to believe that these 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:59.680 weren't plans that much in the way to your point 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:02.720 of the overturning of Ruby Wade were fifty years in 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:06.840 the making. You took us back on the first episode 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:12.800 thirty years of when the seeds of this were being planted. 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:16.639 And so what I realize is that then nefarious nature 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:19.040 can we continue to say like, oh, it doesn't know 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:22.240 any depths and it's because it was it's a project, 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:27.879 a thirty forty to fifty year long project to dismantle 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:32.959 democracy from the inside out. That you weren't going to 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:36.480 need foreign agents. You were just going to need to 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:39.400 activate disgruntled young white men. 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:43.280 Yep. And I you know, even giving a charitable reading, 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:45.320 which is the stuff that happened in the nineties with 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:47.200 the Senate committees and the stuff that happened in the 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:51.040 two thousands with Jack Thompson, those don't even have to 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:54.280 be part of any sort of grand plan because the 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:59.480 fact remains, as you said, that these things even coincidentally, 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:05.159 I'm a population, a sub group of people in society 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:08.480 to be a certain way, and behave a certain way, 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:11.840 and be reactionary in a very strong way. That then 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:15.720 someone like Steve Bannon, a strategist who isn't I don't 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:17.919 remember the name, but there was it, Leonard Leo, like 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:20.000 Steve Vann, is not the first of his kind either, 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:23.679 but he is someone who understands the human condition and 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:29.240 uses their understanding of the human condition for very nefarious means. 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:31.520 And I think that that's the thing that we have 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:34.920 not really fully been able to tap into, is the 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:38.639 psychology of the thing. And that's where I feel to 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:43.919 your point, Steve Bannon and the rest of them have 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:47.720 been able to do right, Like they've been able to 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:52.800 really get into the psychology where kind of I don't know, 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:55.280 maybe to our detriment, and I don't think that it's 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:57.719 a big maybe we were like the world is changing, 0:19:57.800 --> 0:19:59.800 move on, catch up it. 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:03.280 It is flawed thinking on any political side to have 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:05.720 the feeling of most people think the way I do. 0:20:06.000 --> 0:20:08.119 You see it manifest in Trump people with like he 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:11.560 says what everyone's thinking, and it's like, I'm I'm not 0:20:11.640 --> 0:20:15.080 thinking that stuff, but they think it is because they 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:17.720 think that way. I think how that manifests on the 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:20.880 liberal and left wing side, unfortunately, is I can't believe 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:23.640 people would think that way. How could people think this way? 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:25.680 How could people have that much hate in their hearts 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:28.919 or whatever? And it's not even necessarily all the time. 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:31.640 It definitely is for some people. But it's not even 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.720 like all these people like wake up and think about 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:38.080 how freaking racist they are. It's that they have a 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:40.800 reactionary Again, they're so used to living in a world 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:43.800 and the world is changing, and rather that the only 0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:47.679 way that they have to cope with that is projecting 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:53.560 this negativity onto whatever they perceive is threatening their existence 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:57.680 as a dominant force in society, an unquestioningly dominant force 0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:00.959 in society. And if there is nowhere else for them 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:03.200 to turn to, they're going to turn to the people 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:08.920 who say welcome in. We hate those slur slur slur too, 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:11.800 and just make those people worse because they're primed to 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:13.119 be made worse. 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:20.359 Yeah, it's something that is quite extraordinary. And while I 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:23.280 would say just like kind of pushing us into the 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:27.400 present where the Harris Walt's team is trying to tap 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:32.640 into this place of hopefulness and possibility, you can't at 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:36.679 the same time then ignore and I hate to fucking 0:21:36.800 --> 0:21:41.480 trust me, like the quote unquote economic anxiety, the racial anxiety, 0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:45.679 all of these things that are coded for racism. I 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:49.880 hate to even give any attention air and oxygen to it. 0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:55.240 But there is something to what would have been or 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:58.880 what should be the right way, or at least an 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:05.840 initial step in bringing these kind of young men into 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:08.639 the fold. Or is it now? I guess is it 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:09.440 just too late? 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:12.320 I think for young people it's not too late. I 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:13.960 don't know about the people who are affected by this 0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:16.320 ten years ago, because now a decade has gone on, 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:19.159 and if someone's in MAGA world and someone's that entrenched 0:22:19.160 --> 0:22:21.240 in it, I genuinely don't know if you can get 0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:24.720 that person out of that type of thinking without some 0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:29.520 like really serious one on one intervention, which is not 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:32.640 what we're talking about. But with people who are younger, 0:22:32.760 --> 0:22:36.200 like the gen Z men, who feel quote unquote left behind, 0:22:36.520 --> 0:22:38.760 like left behind you could take as another sort of 0:22:39.680 --> 0:22:43.040 code like economic anxiety and all that other stuff, but 0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:47.080 I think it does speak to that perceived real feeling 0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:49.400 that they have, Like if you feel something, then it's 0:22:49.440 --> 0:22:52.520 real to you. And there's that feeling even if they 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:56.919 can't place why it is of like my dominance is 0:22:56.960 --> 0:22:59.200 coming to an end or already has come to an end, 0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:02.560 And it's not a good thing, in my opinion, to 0:23:02.640 --> 0:23:05.720 want to be dominant in society in that way. But 0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:09.080 there is that very real feeling of like the world 0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:10.840 is changing and I feel left behind. So let's put 0:23:10.880 --> 0:23:13.480 it that way. How do you help someone when they 0:23:13.480 --> 0:23:15.600 feel like the world is changing and they're being left behind. 0:23:15.880 --> 0:23:18.879 My feeling is you show them that they're not going 0:23:18.920 --> 0:23:21.040 to be left behind by the world that's coming or 0:23:21.080 --> 0:23:23.159 the world that's already here. You show them there's a 0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:25.159 place for you in this world. The place for you 0:23:25.240 --> 0:23:26.960 in this world is not lesser. The place for you 0:23:27.000 --> 0:23:28.679 in this world is equal. The place for you in 0:23:28.680 --> 0:23:31.880 this world is equitable. And by the way, the right 0:23:31.920 --> 0:23:35.200 wing is going against the word equity and have been 0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:38.760 for the last few years, because that's really what's trying 0:23:38.760 --> 0:23:41.240 to be achieved. There's been an understanding of the difference 0:23:41.240 --> 0:23:45.560 between equality and equity, and so now they don't even 0:23:45.600 --> 0:23:48.439 want young people to find it desirable to exist in 0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:54.720 an equitable world. But I think unfortunately, I say unfortunately, 0:23:54.840 --> 0:23:57.280 because when you're in a place and you understand something, 0:23:57.320 --> 0:23:58.480 you don't want to have to do the work of 0:23:58.520 --> 0:24:00.960 explaining it to someone else and explain to someone why, 0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:03.240 like you want to live in an equitable world. Inequitable 0:24:03.240 --> 0:24:05.760 world is good for all of us. But that is 0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:07.880 the work, in my opinion, that has to be done. 0:24:08.480 --> 0:24:10.280 You don't need to coddle people, you don't need to 0:24:10.280 --> 0:24:12.359 make people still feel like. You don't need to protect 0:24:12.400 --> 0:24:15.800 people's privilege. But I keep saying people, I mean white people, 0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:19.560