1 00:00:14,076 --> 00:00:14,716 Speaker 1: Push it. 2 00:00:25,076 --> 00:00:26,476 Speaker 2: I'm Khalil Jbron Muhammad. 3 00:00:26,756 --> 00:00:31,116 Speaker 3: I'm Ben Austen. We're two best friends, one black, one white. 4 00:00:31,556 --> 00:00:34,796 Speaker 2: I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And this is 5 00:00:34,836 --> 00:00:36,236 Speaker 2: some of my best friends. 6 00:00:36,276 --> 00:00:40,036 Speaker 3: Are some of my best friends? Are you know? On 7 00:00:40,076 --> 00:00:43,396 Speaker 3: the other side. In this show, we wrestle with the 8 00:00:43,476 --> 00:00:48,916 Speaker 3: challenges and the absurdities of a deeply divided and unequal country. 9 00:00:49,396 --> 00:00:54,116 Speaker 3: And today's episode, Khalil, we go deep, deep, deep into 10 00:00:54,196 --> 00:00:55,996 Speaker 3: those divides. Yeah, that's right. 11 00:00:56,036 --> 00:00:59,956 Speaker 2: We're talking about trump Ism, We're talking about populism, we're 12 00:00:59,996 --> 00:01:03,436 Speaker 2: talking about the far right Christian nationalists. We have on 13 00:01:03,516 --> 00:01:04,156 Speaker 2: our show. 14 00:01:04,476 --> 00:01:05,276 Speaker 1: Jeff Charlotte. 15 00:01:05,316 --> 00:01:07,436 Speaker 2: He's a professor at Dartmouth College and the author of 16 00:01:07,476 --> 00:01:10,636 Speaker 2: the New York Times best selling book The Undertow Seems 17 00:01:10,716 --> 00:01:12,556 Speaker 2: from a Slow Civil War. 18 00:01:12,916 --> 00:01:16,196 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, this book is really powerful. Jeff's new books 19 00:01:16,236 --> 00:01:19,996 Speaker 3: starts with his reporting way back in twenty fifteen. He's 20 00:01:20,036 --> 00:01:24,316 Speaker 3: at Trump rallies and it continues throughout the Trump presidency. 21 00:01:24,556 --> 00:01:25,916 Speaker 3: And this is the first part of the book. And 22 00:01:25,956 --> 00:01:29,196 Speaker 3: he's talking with people at these rallies, the real diehard 23 00:01:29,276 --> 00:01:33,996 Speaker 3: Trump supporters, and he's capturing for readers the depth of 24 00:01:34,036 --> 00:01:37,756 Speaker 3: their belief and Jeff is seeing Trump really through the 25 00:01:37,876 --> 00:01:40,236 Speaker 3: lens of religion. He's seeing Trump as a kind of 26 00:01:40,276 --> 00:01:41,236 Speaker 3: religious leader. 27 00:01:41,596 --> 00:01:44,196 Speaker 2: And this book continues after the events of January sixth, 28 00:01:44,236 --> 00:01:48,956 Speaker 2: twenty twenty one. He travels the country to explore divides everywhere, guns, militia, 29 00:01:49,236 --> 00:01:52,716 Speaker 2: state legislative banning of books, and overturning of reproductive rights. 30 00:01:52,876 --> 00:01:56,556 Speaker 2: Jeff really believes that we are in a slow civil war. 31 00:01:56,636 --> 00:01:58,036 Speaker 2: He calls it as he sees it. 32 00:01:58,716 --> 00:02:03,036 Speaker 3: That's right. He thinks it's already begun. All right, let's 33 00:02:03,036 --> 00:02:16,396 Speaker 3: do it. Let's get into this, all right, Jeff Charlotte, Jeff, 34 00:02:17,076 --> 00:02:18,676 Speaker 3: thank you for being on some of my best friends. 35 00:02:18,676 --> 00:02:19,916 Speaker 3: Are I spent a long time coming. 36 00:02:20,796 --> 00:02:23,156 Speaker 1: Thanks Ben, Thanks good to be with you both today. 37 00:02:23,476 --> 00:02:24,956 Speaker 2: Yeah, Jeff, it's great to meet you. 38 00:02:25,476 --> 00:02:28,356 Speaker 3: Jeff Khalil is just meeting you right now, But you 39 00:02:28,436 --> 00:02:30,596 Speaker 3: and I have known each other. I was trying to 40 00:02:30,596 --> 00:02:33,516 Speaker 3: do the math. I think it's twenty years. 41 00:02:33,236 --> 00:02:37,756 Speaker 4: Really that long. So, yeah, we met via Harper's magazine. 42 00:02:37,956 --> 00:02:41,276 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you were doing your first piece for the magazine, 43 00:02:41,356 --> 00:02:43,556 Speaker 3: Jesus plus Nothing, which becomes Your which was. 44 00:02:43,596 --> 00:02:45,956 Speaker 4: The start of my Yeah, twenty years. So I've been 45 00:02:45,996 --> 00:02:48,276 Speaker 4: going around thinking about this book. I've been reporting on 46 00:02:48,396 --> 00:02:51,516 Speaker 4: right wing movements for twenty years since that story. That 47 00:02:51,676 --> 00:02:53,716 Speaker 4: story was in sort of the turn in that direction. 48 00:02:53,916 --> 00:02:56,556 Speaker 3: So that magazine story that we worked on together, you 49 00:02:56,636 --> 00:02:59,436 Speaker 3: as writer, me as a lowly fact checker, became your book, 50 00:02:59,476 --> 00:03:03,076 Speaker 3: The Family, and it also became a docu series. And 51 00:03:03,556 --> 00:03:06,076 Speaker 3: I'll just sort of say, like you've always been interested 52 00:03:06,356 --> 00:03:09,156 Speaker 3: in religion and power. This is sort of something that 53 00:03:09,196 --> 00:03:13,116 Speaker 3: has been much of your professional life's work. And I 54 00:03:13,116 --> 00:03:15,716 Speaker 3: would say that the difference between that work back then 55 00:03:15,796 --> 00:03:18,996 Speaker 3: and what you've been doing more recently is that you 56 00:03:19,076 --> 00:03:22,116 Speaker 3: were looking at elites. You were looking at at least 57 00:03:22,196 --> 00:03:26,236 Speaker 3: people who were approximate to power, and during the Trump 58 00:03:26,436 --> 00:03:30,116 Speaker 3: era you've looked more like the people who are the masses, 59 00:03:31,116 --> 00:03:34,236 Speaker 3: who are not necessarily in power, but how they've been 60 00:03:34,316 --> 00:03:38,236 Speaker 3: sort of controlled or sort of what they're thinking is yeah. 61 00:03:38,236 --> 00:03:43,156 Speaker 4: And I think the pivot point really is Trump's descent 62 00:03:43,276 --> 00:03:45,716 Speaker 4: on the Golden Escalator in twenty fifteen. And here he's 63 00:03:45,756 --> 00:03:50,716 Speaker 4: bringing down a fascist esthetic. He doesn't have a movement yet, 64 00:03:50,756 --> 00:03:53,676 Speaker 4: and the question to me is will he build the movement? 65 00:03:53,756 --> 00:03:56,836 Speaker 4: So the question that becomes more interesting for me is 66 00:03:56,876 --> 00:04:00,236 Speaker 4: one of reception rather than one of the production of 67 00:04:00,276 --> 00:04:03,036 Speaker 4: the narrative, and that kind of pivots me toward will 68 00:04:03,076 --> 00:04:06,116 Speaker 4: this movement form? Will I watch a social movement? Because 69 00:04:06,156 --> 00:04:08,276 Speaker 4: the right has social movements too, Will I watch a 70 00:04:08,316 --> 00:04:12,076 Speaker 4: social movement in real time? And unfortunately, yes. 71 00:04:12,556 --> 00:04:15,636 Speaker 2: No, that's really fascinating because I know in many ways 72 00:04:16,076 --> 00:04:19,516 Speaker 2: the book you've written is written for us, the undertow 73 00:04:19,636 --> 00:04:21,956 Speaker 2: scenes from a civil war. And by us, I mean 74 00:04:22,436 --> 00:04:26,316 Speaker 2: like people who still believe in facts, who still care 75 00:04:26,356 --> 00:04:29,956 Speaker 2: about expertise, and people who read books. But you know, 76 00:04:30,036 --> 00:04:34,756 Speaker 2: tell us, like, what do we need to understand about 77 00:04:34,756 --> 00:04:39,676 Speaker 2: what you call the Trumpet scene to help us understand 78 00:04:39,716 --> 00:04:42,076 Speaker 2: what is happening in our country from all of these 79 00:04:42,076 --> 00:04:44,916 Speaker 2: Trump rallies that you've attended over the past several years. 80 00:04:45,356 --> 00:04:47,516 Speaker 4: That's the first thing that we need to understand that 81 00:04:47,596 --> 00:04:49,836 Speaker 4: this is an age of Trump in the same way 82 00:04:49,876 --> 00:04:52,036 Speaker 4: that I think a lot of scholars will sort of 83 00:04:52,116 --> 00:04:56,796 Speaker 4: date the age Reaganism not from nineteen eighty to eighty eight, 84 00:04:56,836 --> 00:05:00,396 Speaker 4: but from nineteen eighty really perhaps to twenty sixteen, such 85 00:05:00,436 --> 00:05:03,996 Speaker 4: that Reagan defines a kind of a vernacular in which 86 00:05:04,436 --> 00:05:07,796 Speaker 4: American politics takes place. Whether you're a Democrat or Republican, 87 00:05:08,476 --> 00:05:11,236 Speaker 4: and I I think the Trump is scene is he is. 88 00:05:11,516 --> 00:05:14,996 Speaker 4: He has given his language to the age. And I 89 00:05:15,036 --> 00:05:19,076 Speaker 4: think that's the first thing, is that we live in 90 00:05:19,116 --> 00:05:21,236 Speaker 4: the age of Trump. And so these debates is whether 91 00:05:21,276 --> 00:05:23,996 Speaker 4: Trump is finished or not, they're really missing the point. 92 00:05:24,196 --> 00:05:25,636 Speaker 1: I think of this preacher in. 93 00:05:25,836 --> 00:05:29,876 Speaker 4: Omaha, Nebraska, pastor Hank Cuneman, and he's a prophet in 94 00:05:29,996 --> 00:05:32,316 Speaker 4: he or so he says, and he says Trump is 95 00:05:32,356 --> 00:05:35,036 Speaker 4: coming back, whether the man himself or his spirit in 96 00:05:35,076 --> 00:05:35,996 Speaker 4: the flesh of another. 97 00:05:36,156 --> 00:05:37,716 Speaker 1: And I think that's the first thing. 98 00:05:37,756 --> 00:05:40,876 Speaker 4: And the second thing is just to pay attention to 99 00:05:40,916 --> 00:05:43,516 Speaker 4: that seemingly crazy you know, Trump is coming back spirit 100 00:05:43,556 --> 00:05:46,756 Speaker 4: in the flesh of another. Seemingly crazy narrative, right, But 101 00:05:46,796 --> 00:05:51,116 Speaker 4: it's not crazy. It's also imaginative. And I think we 102 00:05:51,196 --> 00:05:54,676 Speaker 4: have to contend with the fascist movement that did arise 103 00:05:54,876 --> 00:05:58,556 Speaker 4: in response to that fascist aesthetic. It is fascism is 104 00:05:58,556 --> 00:06:01,676 Speaker 4: a form of imagination. And where we get stuck on saying, 105 00:06:01,716 --> 00:06:05,156 Speaker 4: but what are our policies? It's not about that. It 106 00:06:05,236 --> 00:06:09,636 Speaker 4: is a utopian movement. They understand that their vision as 107 00:06:10,556 --> 00:06:13,516 Speaker 4: utopin and that brings with it so much momentum and energy. 108 00:06:13,596 --> 00:06:16,276 Speaker 4: And I'm not saying like it's unstoppable. I definitely don't 109 00:06:16,276 --> 00:06:21,556 Speaker 4: believe inevitability, but I think as a country, both left 110 00:06:21,636 --> 00:06:25,396 Speaker 4: and liberals are still trying to resist it in terms 111 00:06:25,436 --> 00:06:27,796 Speaker 4: of an older politics. 112 00:06:27,996 --> 00:06:30,236 Speaker 2: I have a follow up question, Jeff, because this is 113 00:06:30,356 --> 00:06:32,476 Speaker 2: one of the things that I would not have seen 114 00:06:32,556 --> 00:06:35,996 Speaker 2: but for your reporting about this and the amount of 115 00:06:35,996 --> 00:06:39,716 Speaker 2: time you spend up close at these rallies. But essentially 116 00:06:39,756 --> 00:06:43,596 Speaker 2: give the anatomy of a Trump speech, and you wrap 117 00:06:43,676 --> 00:06:49,436 Speaker 2: that anatomy around the sort of familiar tropes of evangelicalism 118 00:06:50,036 --> 00:06:53,916 Speaker 2: in say the career of Billy Graham. But you give 119 00:06:54,476 --> 00:06:57,196 Speaker 2: this anatomy where you say, there's the call, there's the snake, 120 00:06:57,436 --> 00:07:00,116 Speaker 2: and there's the bullet and maybe just sketch very quickly 121 00:07:00,596 --> 00:07:03,756 Speaker 2: to our listeners what exactly you mean by those three 122 00:07:03,796 --> 00:07:05,276 Speaker 2: elements of a Trump rally speech. 123 00:07:06,716 --> 00:07:08,836 Speaker 4: So this is maybe the most upsetting thing I say 124 00:07:08,876 --> 00:07:11,796 Speaker 4: to a lot of non Trumpers, is I think Trump 125 00:07:11,876 --> 00:07:13,956 Speaker 4: is one of the two best orders I've ever heard, 126 00:07:15,116 --> 00:07:19,516 Speaker 4: and the other being Barack Obama. You know, radically different style, 127 00:07:19,716 --> 00:07:22,276 Speaker 4: but in terms of the ability to work a crowd 128 00:07:22,356 --> 00:07:24,236 Speaker 4: and own a crowd, and part of the way Trump 129 00:07:24,276 --> 00:07:27,836 Speaker 4: does it is through a kind of awful comedy, but 130 00:07:27,876 --> 00:07:33,036 Speaker 4: it is comedy. He does sketch comedy, he does voices 131 00:07:33,076 --> 00:07:36,196 Speaker 4: and so on. And it so distresses me that our 132 00:07:36,236 --> 00:07:38,876 Speaker 4: colleagues in the press and really don't pay attention to 133 00:07:38,876 --> 00:07:41,476 Speaker 4: this because they call it just theater. Right, Well, there's 134 00:07:41,476 --> 00:07:44,236 Speaker 4: no such thing as just theater. There's theater, and it's powerful. 135 00:07:44,316 --> 00:07:46,596 Speaker 4: The call is one that was one he used in 136 00:07:46,636 --> 00:07:51,036 Speaker 4: twenty sixteen, and he would sort of enact the calls 137 00:07:51,076 --> 00:07:53,116 Speaker 4: he was going to make as president of bringing back 138 00:07:53,436 --> 00:07:57,116 Speaker 4: the industrial base, and how quickly the chieftains of industry 139 00:07:57,196 --> 00:07:59,956 Speaker 4: would bow to his will, right and sometimes that. 140 00:07:59,916 --> 00:08:01,436 Speaker 3: He was making that they didn't have to have any 141 00:08:01,436 --> 00:08:03,676 Speaker 3: truth to them. But I just like Grandio's promises. 142 00:08:04,716 --> 00:08:06,596 Speaker 4: It wasn't even a promise. He was in enacting it. 143 00:08:06,636 --> 00:08:08,596 Speaker 4: So you saw it happen, all right, So great the 144 00:08:08,596 --> 00:08:11,276 Speaker 4: companies are I just heard him. I just heard the 145 00:08:11,316 --> 00:08:12,836 Speaker 4: guy on the phone. Well you didn't hear it. 146 00:08:12,836 --> 00:08:14,476 Speaker 3: But he's a good performer, all right, all right, So 147 00:08:14,556 --> 00:08:16,316 Speaker 3: that's the first part of his speech. You call it 148 00:08:16,356 --> 00:08:18,236 Speaker 3: the call, So, Jeff, what's the snake? 149 00:08:18,956 --> 00:08:19,876 Speaker 1: That the snake was? 150 00:08:19,916 --> 00:08:22,756 Speaker 4: He would take an old song by actually a black 151 00:08:22,756 --> 00:08:25,836 Speaker 4: ceil rights activist and sort of perform it as this 152 00:08:25,996 --> 00:08:28,916 Speaker 4: poem about a woman who picks up a snake and 153 00:08:28,916 --> 00:08:31,836 Speaker 4: the snake bites her, and he would do voices, you know, 154 00:08:31,876 --> 00:08:33,236 Speaker 4: he do the voice of the snake, and he. 155 00:08:33,276 --> 00:08:35,196 Speaker 1: Do the voice of the woman. Why did you bite me? 156 00:08:35,636 --> 00:08:38,236 Speaker 4: And you know, the snake, silly woman, you took me in. 157 00:08:38,316 --> 00:08:40,556 Speaker 4: You knew that's what I was. And to him that 158 00:08:40,836 --> 00:08:43,076 Speaker 4: represented the undocumented person. 159 00:08:42,836 --> 00:08:44,956 Speaker 2: The crisis at the border that we call it now, 160 00:08:46,156 --> 00:08:49,676 Speaker 2: which all of this criminalizing, racist language about immigrants and 161 00:08:49,716 --> 00:08:51,556 Speaker 2: the rapes and the murderers and this sort of thing. 162 00:08:51,556 --> 00:08:54,116 Speaker 2: That's where the that's where that snake metaphor shows up. 163 00:08:54,436 --> 00:08:56,276 Speaker 2: And now the bullet, the last part of the speech, 164 00:08:56,316 --> 00:08:58,436 Speaker 2: which you say is about the neef of violence, like 165 00:08:58,476 --> 00:09:00,956 Speaker 2: to protect or defend the people against those who Trump 166 00:09:00,996 --> 00:09:04,036 Speaker 2: defines as traders. You give us this crazy story, this 167 00:09:04,156 --> 00:09:07,796 Speaker 2: example in the book about Trump talking about a mass 168 00:09:07,876 --> 00:09:09,916 Speaker 2: execution in the Philippine. 169 00:09:10,436 --> 00:09:12,556 Speaker 1: The bullet is just straight murder. 170 00:09:12,596 --> 00:09:14,636 Speaker 4: And I was actually just thinking of the bullet to dig, 171 00:09:14,676 --> 00:09:18,156 Speaker 4: which is a fictional history which he presents as real. 172 00:09:18,836 --> 00:09:25,036 Speaker 4: It's general black Jack pershing and the Philippines and this 173 00:09:25,396 --> 00:09:28,516 Speaker 4: Muslim rebellion and This never happened, by the way, but 174 00:09:28,796 --> 00:09:32,676 Speaker 4: you know, just obviously, they capture fifty Muslim rebels and 175 00:09:32,716 --> 00:09:36,476 Speaker 4: they dip fifty bullets into pigs. 176 00:09:36,196 --> 00:09:39,396 Speaker 1: Blood, and the whole thing is acting. 177 00:09:39,436 --> 00:09:42,276 Speaker 4: He demonstrates, he's swirling the bullets and the blood he's 178 00:09:42,276 --> 00:09:44,836 Speaker 4: holding up. He tells the story, and he shoots forty 179 00:09:44,916 --> 00:09:47,876 Speaker 4: nine of them, and he minds shooting them, and the 180 00:09:47,916 --> 00:09:50,916 Speaker 4: crowd is cheering, leaves one man alive to go and 181 00:09:52,276 --> 00:09:55,836 Speaker 4: tell the tale, and then he does a story again. 182 00:09:55,956 --> 00:10:00,596 Speaker 4: The whole thing boom boom, boom, and the crowd cheers louder. 183 00:10:00,716 --> 00:10:04,356 Speaker 4: And anything Trump says about policy after that is missing 184 00:10:04,916 --> 00:10:08,236 Speaker 4: the point. It doesn't matter. He knows that that's the 185 00:10:08,276 --> 00:10:10,516 Speaker 4: power of a really scary order. And it's not a 186 00:10:11,236 --> 00:10:13,116 Speaker 4: you know, people say he's not fascist because he doesn't 187 00:10:13,116 --> 00:10:14,556 Speaker 4: talk like Hitler and Mussolini. 188 00:10:14,716 --> 00:10:18,836 Speaker 1: No, he talks like Trump. It is a different style, that's. 189 00:10:18,676 --> 00:10:20,716 Speaker 3: Right, Jeff. You know, as you know, I'm in Chicago, 190 00:10:20,756 --> 00:10:22,676 Speaker 3: and so we have a kind of version of Trump's 191 00:10:22,716 --> 00:10:25,316 Speaker 3: the bullet speech here where he's like, you know, Chicago 192 00:10:25,396 --> 00:10:27,956 Speaker 3: is this hell hole, and I spoke to this tough cop, 193 00:10:28,036 --> 00:10:29,836 Speaker 3: I spoke to this great cop, and it changes in 194 00:10:29,876 --> 00:10:32,476 Speaker 3: every version he tells. But it's this idea of just 195 00:10:32,596 --> 00:10:35,636 Speaker 3: like oppressive policing, they could solve the crime problem in 196 00:10:35,716 --> 00:10:37,796 Speaker 3: Chicago if we just let him, they could solve it 197 00:10:37,836 --> 00:10:39,876 Speaker 3: in a minute or a day. It's this idea of 198 00:10:39,956 --> 00:10:44,036 Speaker 3: like hyper violence and justified in some form. 199 00:10:44,356 --> 00:10:45,476 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's just so interesting. 200 00:10:45,516 --> 00:10:47,516 Speaker 4: I hadn't thought of that as like the Chicago as 201 00:10:47,556 --> 00:10:50,676 Speaker 4: one of his one of his sketches actually, And I 202 00:10:50,756 --> 00:10:52,916 Speaker 4: wonder how many of those city sketches he's had, because 203 00:10:52,916 --> 00:10:55,436 Speaker 4: I've also heard him do one for Philadelphia. You know, 204 00:10:55,476 --> 00:10:58,716 Speaker 4: I've never I've never been to a Chicago rally. Of 205 00:10:58,756 --> 00:11:00,476 Speaker 4: course I could watch them. It would be interesting to 206 00:11:00,516 --> 00:11:02,796 Speaker 4: sort of see like the urban studies of trump Ism, 207 00:11:03,396 --> 00:11:05,876 Speaker 4: to go through when he's near different cities, and what 208 00:11:06,076 --> 00:11:07,076 Speaker 4: stories he tells. 209 00:11:06,876 --> 00:11:10,036 Speaker 3: About actually that Chicago story that he is not just 210 00:11:10,676 --> 00:11:13,316 Speaker 3: you know, at Chicago rallies, and in fact it's across 211 00:11:13,316 --> 00:11:16,076 Speaker 3: the nation because Chicago, like Philadelphia, is a stand in 212 00:11:16,556 --> 00:11:19,316 Speaker 3: for like black city. You know, it invokes all the 213 00:11:19,356 --> 00:11:22,396 Speaker 3: sort of like racist and they're not even like you know, 214 00:11:22,516 --> 00:11:25,716 Speaker 3: dog whistles. They're just like explicit and so you know, 215 00:11:25,996 --> 00:11:29,876 Speaker 3: tough on crime rhetoric. That he's able to extol. It 216 00:11:29,996 --> 00:11:32,556 Speaker 3: just works wherever he is, because Chicago has this meaning 217 00:11:32,596 --> 00:11:36,636 Speaker 3: of like violent place, gun crimes black people. 218 00:11:37,156 --> 00:11:39,356 Speaker 4: Well, let me ask you both a question. That's that's 219 00:11:39,356 --> 00:11:41,476 Speaker 4: something I've been thinking about. Is there actually any place 220 00:11:41,556 --> 00:11:44,036 Speaker 4: now in the rhetoric for the term dog whistle or 221 00:11:44,116 --> 00:11:45,516 Speaker 4: is it simply misleading us? 222 00:11:46,316 --> 00:11:47,516 Speaker 2: I think I think you're right. 223 00:11:47,796 --> 00:11:48,436 Speaker 3: Absolutely. 224 00:11:48,876 --> 00:11:54,356 Speaker 2: I mean, the explicit nature of the conversation today about 225 00:11:54,556 --> 00:12:00,396 Speaker 2: saving the country in whatever context it is right now, 226 00:12:00,436 --> 00:12:04,676 Speaker 2: it's the recent immigration changes by the Biden administration and 227 00:12:04,756 --> 00:12:07,956 Speaker 2: the wall to wall coverage of people at the border, 228 00:12:08,716 --> 00:12:10,596 Speaker 2: and the way in which the Biden administration is just 229 00:12:10,716 --> 00:12:14,676 Speaker 2: unleashing people who don't belong here. Now, I'm not using 230 00:12:14,716 --> 00:12:17,436 Speaker 2: the language in which it's articulated, but all you have 231 00:12:17,476 --> 00:12:20,196 Speaker 2: to do is add the filter of racist trumpst white 232 00:12:20,236 --> 00:12:23,276 Speaker 2: supremacists on top of that, and that's what we're hearing. 233 00:12:23,356 --> 00:12:27,396 Speaker 2: So I think the notion of dog whistle as a 234 00:12:27,516 --> 00:12:31,196 Speaker 2: term of art these days is as anachronistic as even 235 00:12:31,276 --> 00:12:35,716 Speaker 2: a so called culture war, which we still are using 236 00:12:35,796 --> 00:12:38,556 Speaker 2: to define like what should we be saying about the 237 00:12:38,596 --> 00:12:39,996 Speaker 2: truth of our history or not. 238 00:12:41,036 --> 00:12:44,116 Speaker 3: To normalize is something that's extreme. Yeah, it puts it out. 239 00:12:44,516 --> 00:12:46,436 Speaker 4: If here's the normal flow of things and here's this 240 00:12:46,516 --> 00:12:50,156 Speaker 4: other thing that intrudes dog whistle or culture war, when 241 00:12:50,196 --> 00:12:51,116 Speaker 4: that is the center. 242 00:12:51,596 --> 00:12:54,076 Speaker 2: I would even say on the cultural point that it 243 00:12:54,276 --> 00:12:57,116 Speaker 2: minimizes it, like it's not that important. Like there's real 244 00:12:57,196 --> 00:13:00,716 Speaker 2: politics and then there's these culture wars, and the culture 245 00:13:00,716 --> 00:13:03,276 Speaker 2: wars are the bait and switch from the actual real 246 00:13:03,316 --> 00:13:06,396 Speaker 2: thing that we're trying to get to. So to me, 247 00:13:06,916 --> 00:13:09,116 Speaker 2: that's the heart of the matter at this point. For example, 248 00:13:09,476 --> 00:13:13,836 Speaker 2: we just saw Maricio Garcia kill people in Texas. I 249 00:13:13,876 --> 00:13:18,396 Speaker 2: believe he killed eight people and was self identified with 250 00:13:18,516 --> 00:13:23,916 Speaker 2: white supremacist and Nazi culture. You actually, unlike most Americans, 251 00:13:24,396 --> 00:13:28,196 Speaker 2: have seen up close what the appeals are are within 252 00:13:28,996 --> 00:13:32,676 Speaker 2: these right wing fascist movements that support Trump two people 253 00:13:32,716 --> 00:13:37,236 Speaker 2: of color like, so help help more people understand exactly 254 00:13:37,556 --> 00:13:38,396 Speaker 2: how that works. 255 00:13:39,716 --> 00:13:41,916 Speaker 4: Well, I you know, in the book I use this 256 00:13:42,036 --> 00:13:46,796 Speaker 4: term from a friend of mine, Anthea Butler, who this 257 00:13:47,516 --> 00:13:50,836 Speaker 4: great slim book that I recommend called White Evangelical Racism. 258 00:13:51,036 --> 00:13:53,436 Speaker 4: And you know, Anthea Butler is a is a sort 259 00:13:53,436 --> 00:13:57,276 Speaker 4: of a deep historian of churches and whack churches in America. 260 00:13:57,316 --> 00:13:59,116 Speaker 4: But this is you don't have to be an academic 261 00:13:59,156 --> 00:14:01,276 Speaker 4: to read this book, and she's got this phrase like 262 00:14:01,316 --> 00:14:03,916 Speaker 4: the promise of whiteness and the problem, and it's astonishing 263 00:14:03,916 --> 00:14:06,236 Speaker 4: that we're still wrestling with this, given how all the 264 00:14:06,316 --> 00:14:08,716 Speaker 4: promise of whiteness is. 265 00:14:09,196 --> 00:14:11,196 Speaker 1: Eric, I've just been listening to a book about Gary, 266 00:14:11,236 --> 00:14:13,036 Speaker 1: Indiana and. 267 00:14:12,836 --> 00:14:17,236 Speaker 4: The ways in which the factory bosses and so on 268 00:14:17,676 --> 00:14:22,316 Speaker 4: so to split Serb immigrants and black migrants, who at 269 00:14:22,356 --> 00:14:26,796 Speaker 4: first had such solidarity that you'd have black workers speaking 270 00:14:26,836 --> 00:14:32,316 Speaker 4: Serbian and Serbs learning English from black workers. But the 271 00:14:32,356 --> 00:14:37,116 Speaker 4: promise of whiteness was they could extend it to the Serbs. Right, Hey, Serbs, 272 00:14:37,396 --> 00:14:39,196 Speaker 4: we had you as outsiders, but you know what, we're 273 00:14:39,196 --> 00:14:43,196 Speaker 4: going to make you insiders and you can keep expanding 274 00:14:43,196 --> 00:14:45,636 Speaker 4: that promise of whiteness. And I think that's one of 275 00:14:45,676 --> 00:14:48,596 Speaker 4: the insights that Trump had. So when you go to 276 00:14:48,636 --> 00:14:50,956 Speaker 4: a Trump rally and it opens again and again and 277 00:14:50,996 --> 00:14:54,156 Speaker 4: again with a black or brown preacher, usually far to 278 00:14:54,236 --> 00:14:57,196 Speaker 4: the right, and this is an important point. It inoculates 279 00:14:57,236 --> 00:15:00,236 Speaker 4: the mostly white crowd, well, I'm not a racist. Look here, 280 00:15:00,276 --> 00:15:04,076 Speaker 4: I am enjoying what this this black or brown preacher 281 00:15:04,116 --> 00:15:08,476 Speaker 4: has to say. But then to go further than that, right, 282 00:15:09,156 --> 00:15:13,036 Speaker 4: understand that one that's doing the work of inoculation. Two 283 00:15:13,316 --> 00:15:17,636 Speaker 4: it is making trump ism and fascism I think safe 284 00:15:17,796 --> 00:15:21,316 Speaker 4: for a certain number of people of color. And I 285 00:15:21,356 --> 00:15:24,276 Speaker 4: think if we understand it as having a gravitational force, 286 00:15:24,356 --> 00:15:29,156 Speaker 4: of course it is fascism. White supremacy is a insidious 287 00:15:29,236 --> 00:15:31,596 Speaker 4: enough disease. I think in my understanding that it can 288 00:15:31,636 --> 00:15:34,236 Speaker 4: be carried by that, so that you get down to 289 00:15:34,836 --> 00:15:39,236 Speaker 4: a rally in Sunrise, Florida, very blue area, and I 290 00:15:39,236 --> 00:15:41,276 Speaker 4: don't even know if the crowd was mostly white. There's 291 00:15:41,316 --> 00:15:44,196 Speaker 4: a Cuban American, sure, like everyone's like, okay, I get that. 292 00:15:44,636 --> 00:15:48,116 Speaker 4: But then there's a Venezuelan Americans and the Nicaraguan Americans 293 00:15:48,596 --> 00:15:53,556 Speaker 4: waving Nicaraguen and Venezuelan flags. There's also folks waving Pride flags. 294 00:15:54,116 --> 00:15:58,316 Speaker 4: Fascism has a gravity that can pull people in. It says, 295 00:15:58,396 --> 00:16:00,756 Speaker 4: I can make you part of this movement. And once 296 00:16:00,796 --> 00:16:02,796 Speaker 4: you're part of this movement, you know, and then we 297 00:16:02,836 --> 00:16:05,876 Speaker 4: also like rope in the liberal lave of color blindness, 298 00:16:06,396 --> 00:16:10,196 Speaker 4: and suddenly the numbers start eroding. 299 00:16:10,436 --> 00:16:14,076 Speaker 2: Jeff, because I know this is such an important and 300 00:16:14,236 --> 00:16:17,476 Speaker 2: hard point to appreciate for a lot of people. I mean, 301 00:16:17,476 --> 00:16:20,876 Speaker 2: they're stuck on the notion that white supremacy cannot be 302 00:16:21,556 --> 00:16:24,156 Speaker 2: passed on to people of color. You have this really 303 00:16:24,156 --> 00:16:27,076 Speaker 2: brilliant passage, and I'm just going to read a portion 304 00:16:27,156 --> 00:16:30,156 Speaker 2: of it. You said that to a color blind crowd. 305 00:16:30,236 --> 00:16:33,316 Speaker 2: Quote unquote. The implicit equation is one of themselves with 306 00:16:33,476 --> 00:16:37,516 Speaker 2: the formerly enslaved. Black becomes white, white becomes the oppressed. 307 00:16:38,036 --> 00:16:40,396 Speaker 2: Just as white people took the land from indigenous people 308 00:16:40,396 --> 00:16:43,876 Speaker 2: and then named themselves they're victims, so too, has whiteness 309 00:16:43,916 --> 00:16:46,756 Speaker 2: always been a means of claiming the suffering it inflicts 310 00:16:46,796 --> 00:16:50,236 Speaker 2: on others as its own. And I think that goes 311 00:16:50,276 --> 00:16:52,956 Speaker 2: a long way to not only telling us why this 312 00:16:53,236 --> 00:16:56,516 Speaker 2: movement has appeal, why fifty percent more black men voted 313 00:16:56,516 --> 00:16:58,996 Speaker 2: for Trump in twenty twenty than voted in twenty sixteen, 314 00:16:59,436 --> 00:17:01,836 Speaker 2: and why we all need to be concerned about the 315 00:17:01,876 --> 00:17:05,116 Speaker 2: growing possibility that a browning of America will not save 316 00:17:05,236 --> 00:17:06,036 Speaker 2: us from fascism. 317 00:17:06,796 --> 00:17:10,356 Speaker 3: Yeah, and people can see this, but Jeff is nodding 318 00:17:10,356 --> 00:17:13,236 Speaker 3: along to his own words like yeah, pretty good. 319 00:17:14,236 --> 00:17:17,196 Speaker 4: No, No, you embarrassed me. 320 00:17:17,396 --> 00:17:19,796 Speaker 1: I'm like saying, like, well cool, because what you do 321 00:17:19,916 --> 00:17:20,476 Speaker 1: is like I'm. 322 00:17:20,316 --> 00:17:22,076 Speaker 4: Like blah blah blah, blah blah blah, and like, you know, 323 00:17:22,116 --> 00:17:24,396 Speaker 4: you wrote it in like a few sentences there, and 324 00:17:24,476 --> 00:17:27,036 Speaker 4: like it's a little bit like this is this is 325 00:17:27,076 --> 00:17:29,756 Speaker 4: a tribute to editors, right, Like then what I said 326 00:17:29,796 --> 00:17:32,436 Speaker 4: was the first draft, what Khalil read was what you know, 327 00:17:32,516 --> 00:17:36,116 Speaker 4: someone like Ben or another editor much improved. 328 00:17:36,156 --> 00:17:38,996 Speaker 3: I mean, so Trump was on CNN in this town hall, 329 00:17:39,076 --> 00:17:43,996 Speaker 3: and so more people witnessed what you're describing pretty recently, 330 00:17:44,516 --> 00:17:46,796 Speaker 3: and I know you must think about this a lot. 331 00:17:46,876 --> 00:17:49,996 Speaker 3: You said that, like, people like us need to understand 332 00:17:50,076 --> 00:17:52,916 Speaker 3: the symbols of trump Ism and the depth of belief 333 00:17:52,916 --> 00:17:55,996 Speaker 3: in it. But as we saw on CNN, there's also 334 00:17:56,116 --> 00:17:59,196 Speaker 3: like this this danger of giving him a platform and 335 00:17:59,756 --> 00:18:02,076 Speaker 3: everyone's seeing it and like we can repeat the mistakes 336 00:18:02,076 --> 00:18:05,116 Speaker 3: of twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen again. And so how 337 00:18:05,156 --> 00:18:07,276 Speaker 3: do you think about that? I mean, you you talk 338 00:18:07,316 --> 00:18:09,556 Speaker 3: about this all the time you've written this book. Do 339 00:18:09,596 --> 00:18:12,316 Speaker 3: you sometimes wrestle with this idea that you're like, by 340 00:18:13,076 --> 00:18:16,316 Speaker 3: regaling us with stories about Trump, you're also you know, 341 00:18:16,716 --> 00:18:20,036 Speaker 3: letting him speak more, your giving voice to it. 342 00:18:20,396 --> 00:18:23,076 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, like that's the platform question, right, But 343 00:18:23,276 --> 00:18:25,636 Speaker 4: I'll say I think the CNN town hall, I thought 344 00:18:25,636 --> 00:18:26,396 Speaker 4: it was obscene. 345 00:18:26,396 --> 00:18:28,356 Speaker 1: I mean, and that's not how you do it. That's 346 00:18:28,516 --> 00:18:29,716 Speaker 1: part of the old politics. 347 00:18:29,716 --> 00:18:32,716 Speaker 4: One they want the ratings right, but two then they're 348 00:18:32,756 --> 00:18:35,316 Speaker 4: going to answer with the liberal response, we're going to 349 00:18:35,356 --> 00:18:38,476 Speaker 4: fact check him live. Well, what is the point of 350 00:18:38,516 --> 00:18:40,956 Speaker 4: fact checking? There is no point. I mean, that's not 351 00:18:40,996 --> 00:18:43,116 Speaker 4: how you do it. I would hope that what I'm 352 00:18:43,156 --> 00:18:45,476 Speaker 4: doing here. First of all, you know, I don't have 353 00:18:45,516 --> 00:18:47,676 Speaker 4: three million viewers, and I think actually that does matter. 354 00:18:47,716 --> 00:18:50,236 Speaker 4: This is a book. But also instead of sort of 355 00:18:50,356 --> 00:18:52,716 Speaker 4: trying to fact check him, the more important thing is 356 00:18:52,756 --> 00:18:57,236 Speaker 4: to show, I think, how he's constructing this story, what 357 00:18:57,276 --> 00:19:00,116 Speaker 4: the pieces are, not to say it's just theater, but 358 00:19:00,196 --> 00:19:02,596 Speaker 4: to really pay attention to it as theeter, and say, 359 00:19:02,636 --> 00:19:05,756 Speaker 4: what are the elements of production here, what are the 360 00:19:05,796 --> 00:19:08,876 Speaker 4: elements we can see the myth in the making. 361 00:19:09,236 --> 00:19:10,836 Speaker 3: So, Jeff, we're going to take a quick break, and 362 00:19:10,836 --> 00:19:12,836 Speaker 3: when we come back, we're going to talk about your 363 00:19:12,876 --> 00:19:17,036 Speaker 3: work essentially since the twenty twenty election and explore this 364 00:19:17,156 --> 00:19:20,356 Speaker 3: idea of whether we are in a civil war right now. 365 00:19:20,956 --> 00:19:22,436 Speaker 3: We'll be right back after the break. 366 00:19:38,156 --> 00:19:41,276 Speaker 2: We're back with Jeff Charlotte, author of The Undertow Scenes 367 00:19:41,316 --> 00:19:44,236 Speaker 2: from a slow civil War. Oh, Jeff, this is really 368 00:19:45,116 --> 00:19:48,236 Speaker 2: so important, I think what you've done, and the media 369 00:19:48,276 --> 00:19:51,316 Speaker 2: attention to this work, I think is partly driven by 370 00:19:51,356 --> 00:19:55,116 Speaker 2: this very provocative subtitle that encapsulates a lot of the 371 00:19:55,116 --> 00:19:57,436 Speaker 2: reporting that first appeared in Vanity Fair and that you 372 00:19:57,556 --> 00:20:00,396 Speaker 2: continue to write about, which is this whole idea that 373 00:20:00,436 --> 00:20:03,596 Speaker 2: we might actually be in a civil war. And so 374 00:20:04,156 --> 00:20:08,116 Speaker 2: you're kind of like a Detouqueville traveling the country right now, 375 00:20:09,236 --> 00:20:12,076 Speaker 2: looking at what's happening on the ground. And so look, 376 00:20:12,116 --> 00:20:16,956 Speaker 2: give us your understanding, your evidence that we might be 377 00:20:17,236 --> 00:20:18,596 Speaker 2: already in a civil war. 378 00:20:18,796 --> 00:20:20,476 Speaker 3: Take us on your journeys a little. 379 00:20:20,236 --> 00:20:21,196 Speaker 1: Bit, Okay, sure. 380 00:20:21,276 --> 00:20:23,876 Speaker 4: So the big part of the book, the Undertow is 381 00:20:24,276 --> 00:20:27,156 Speaker 4: January sixth, twenty twenty one. We see this young white woman, 382 00:20:27,236 --> 00:20:31,836 Speaker 4: Ashley Babbitt, an insurrectionist, and she's killed, and the cop 383 00:20:31,836 --> 00:20:34,156 Speaker 4: who kills her as a black man. So right away 384 00:20:34,356 --> 00:20:35,716 Speaker 4: we know what's going to happen. It's going to be 385 00:20:35,716 --> 00:20:38,556 Speaker 4: a lynching story. She's made into a martinmoth. So I 386 00:20:38,636 --> 00:20:41,956 Speaker 4: decide to go out to California to a rally for 387 00:20:42,036 --> 00:20:45,036 Speaker 4: Ashley Babbitt, and I go to a rally and there's 388 00:20:45,036 --> 00:20:47,596 Speaker 4: a brawl between Proud Boys and Antifa, And someone says, 389 00:20:47,596 --> 00:20:49,876 Speaker 4: you really want to understand why Ashley Babbitt died. Come 390 00:20:49,916 --> 00:20:53,756 Speaker 4: to my church. And it's a little megachurch in Yuba City, California. 391 00:20:53,956 --> 00:20:56,756 Speaker 4: There's no crosses in this church, but the pulpit is 392 00:20:56,796 --> 00:20:59,276 Speaker 4: made of swords. And they explain that as saying, we 393 00:20:59,316 --> 00:21:02,196 Speaker 4: are now in a time of war. Theology Tuesday night 394 00:21:02,276 --> 00:21:06,036 Speaker 4: is new militia recruit night and this is not this 395 00:21:06,116 --> 00:21:08,356 Speaker 4: is a suburban church is it just regular folks? 396 00:21:08,396 --> 00:21:08,596 Speaker 1: You know? 397 00:21:09,916 --> 00:21:14,636 Speaker 4: And they are armed, they are ready for They pastor 398 00:21:14,676 --> 00:21:18,156 Speaker 4: talks openly with joy about the executions to come. There's 399 00:21:18,196 --> 00:21:22,076 Speaker 4: people around you who have already succeeded in their imagination, 400 00:21:22,476 --> 00:21:26,036 Speaker 4: you know, the slow civil war that I imagine, imagine, 401 00:21:26,076 --> 00:21:29,276 Speaker 4: believe is happening right now, it's not coming. People say 402 00:21:29,276 --> 00:21:31,156 Speaker 4: could there be violence? And always stunts me, what do 403 00:21:31,196 --> 00:21:34,836 Speaker 4: you mean? Could there be violence? There's always is already 404 00:21:35,196 --> 00:21:37,756 Speaker 4: He's already violence and there's always been violence, right, but 405 00:21:37,796 --> 00:21:40,756 Speaker 4: there's violence on top of violence. Now it is, you know, 406 00:21:40,836 --> 00:21:43,596 Speaker 4: what has been a simmer is coming to perhaps a 407 00:21:43,716 --> 00:21:48,076 Speaker 4: slow boil. They have already accepted the idea of civil 408 00:21:48,076 --> 00:21:50,196 Speaker 4: war when that was back in the spring of twenty 409 00:21:50,236 --> 00:21:53,916 Speaker 4: one when I started noticing some historians using civil war 410 00:21:53,996 --> 00:21:56,796 Speaker 4: talk right and clearly, you know, like how in a way, 411 00:21:57,716 --> 00:22:02,196 Speaker 4: slow moving especially historians can be right, like they're like, yeah, 412 00:22:02,356 --> 00:22:03,676 Speaker 4: let's not jump to conclusions. 413 00:22:03,716 --> 00:22:04,876 Speaker 1: But so they're saying that. 414 00:22:04,956 --> 00:22:09,116 Speaker 2: Well, when January sixth happened, not only was I convey 415 00:22:09,396 --> 00:22:13,036 Speaker 2: that this was possible, but I recalled that on the 416 00:22:13,076 --> 00:22:16,236 Speaker 2: inauguration of Lincoln in March. It was only a month 417 00:22:16,356 --> 00:22:19,956 Speaker 2: later that the South, that South Carolina fired on Fort Sumter. 418 00:22:20,476 --> 00:22:23,436 Speaker 2: So the proximity of January sixth to the inauguration of 419 00:22:23,516 --> 00:22:27,316 Speaker 2: Joe Biden felt eerily familiar, Like these people were doing 420 00:22:27,396 --> 00:22:31,476 Speaker 2: a preemptive warfare essentially, and they essentially were so yeah, 421 00:22:31,516 --> 00:22:33,236 Speaker 2: not hiberbally at this point. 422 00:22:33,276 --> 00:22:34,596 Speaker 1: Preemptive that's a good phrase. 423 00:22:35,116 --> 00:22:36,876 Speaker 4: There's a way in which I think so much of 424 00:22:36,916 --> 00:22:40,236 Speaker 4: the arming up, and that was you know, then I 425 00:22:40,276 --> 00:22:42,716 Speaker 4: started going to more churches. In every church I went to, 426 00:22:43,516 --> 00:22:45,956 Speaker 4: you know, you would ask civil war, and people dance 427 00:22:46,036 --> 00:22:48,596 Speaker 4: was always yes. It was just whether it's happening right 428 00:22:48,636 --> 00:22:51,476 Speaker 4: now or it's coming, or whether it's something you look 429 00:22:51,556 --> 00:22:56,436 Speaker 4: forward to or something you regretfully accept. I mean, you 430 00:22:56,476 --> 00:22:58,916 Speaker 4: know the fact that like, look, if you've got more 431 00:22:58,916 --> 00:23:01,356 Speaker 4: and more, like the state of Florida, where you've got 432 00:23:01,396 --> 00:23:05,716 Speaker 4: people who really think that the books in their schools 433 00:23:06,716 --> 00:23:12,876 Speaker 4: are teaching white kids to hate themselves and teaching what 434 00:23:12,956 --> 00:23:16,876 Speaker 4: you understand as dramatic perversion. From their perspective, they're in 435 00:23:16,876 --> 00:23:19,676 Speaker 4: the slow civil war too, and we're the ones waging 436 00:23:19,716 --> 00:23:22,916 Speaker 4: the assault. I'm not like saying both sides, but I 437 00:23:22,956 --> 00:23:24,556 Speaker 4: think and there's casualties. 438 00:23:24,596 --> 00:23:27,796 Speaker 1: Look, every pregnant person who's dying for lack of reproductive 439 00:23:27,876 --> 00:23:28,716 Speaker 1: rights is casualty. 440 00:23:28,756 --> 00:23:30,996 Speaker 4: We as journalists know that, Like we hear a case here, 441 00:23:31,036 --> 00:23:32,716 Speaker 4: a case there, we know there's one hundred for every 442 00:23:32,756 --> 00:23:35,556 Speaker 4: one of those. I think the wave of queer and 443 00:23:35,636 --> 00:23:39,476 Speaker 4: trans kids suicides, not all of them, but a lot 444 00:23:39,516 --> 00:23:43,476 Speaker 4: of them are casualties. These mass shootings, those are casualties. 445 00:23:43,516 --> 00:23:44,996 Speaker 3: I want to push back up against this a little 446 00:23:45,036 --> 00:23:46,956 Speaker 3: bit to both of you, because you said, Khalil that 447 00:23:46,996 --> 00:23:50,916 Speaker 3: you don't think this is hyperbole, and I don't know, 448 00:23:51,316 --> 00:23:54,076 Speaker 3: but I think about the language of civil war being 449 00:23:54,796 --> 00:23:59,076 Speaker 3: being alarmist language, either purposefully so, and I think about 450 00:23:59,076 --> 00:24:02,636 Speaker 3: like what's to gain by using that language and also 451 00:24:02,716 --> 00:24:06,116 Speaker 3: what's lost by using that kind of alarmist language, and 452 00:24:06,716 --> 00:24:09,356 Speaker 3: I have no doubt, I mean, in my opinion onion 453 00:24:09,476 --> 00:24:12,676 Speaker 3: that the drum beat of what's been going on the 454 00:24:12,756 --> 00:24:16,356 Speaker 3: extreme right has shifted the center right word like the 455 00:24:16,356 --> 00:24:19,516 Speaker 3: things that we accept is okay that even centrist Dems 456 00:24:19,516 --> 00:24:21,156 Speaker 3: are like, yeah, yeah, I'm going to settle for that, 457 00:24:21,356 --> 00:24:23,876 Speaker 3: Like we're living through that right now. But that to 458 00:24:23,916 --> 00:24:27,236 Speaker 3: me is different than say a civil war, which there 459 00:24:27,276 --> 00:24:29,556 Speaker 3: are If we don't have North and South, we at 460 00:24:29,636 --> 00:24:32,316 Speaker 3: least have like sides, and there's some like sense we 461 00:24:32,316 --> 00:24:36,236 Speaker 3: don't to connect the dots of every sort of you know, 462 00:24:36,396 --> 00:24:39,836 Speaker 3: semi connected act of violence and say this is evidence. 463 00:24:40,276 --> 00:24:43,916 Speaker 3: Seems like it could be a little bit loose and 464 00:24:43,996 --> 00:24:46,476 Speaker 3: so so yeah, I'm throwing that back on you, both 465 00:24:46,476 --> 00:24:49,076 Speaker 3: of you, like, is what's the value or and whether 466 00:24:49,236 --> 00:24:52,236 Speaker 3: what's the danger of using that kind of language. 467 00:24:52,316 --> 00:24:55,116 Speaker 2: I mean, for me as a historian in this conversation, 468 00:24:56,036 --> 00:24:59,556 Speaker 2: I mean, the context of our actual civil war is 469 00:24:59,596 --> 00:25:03,356 Speaker 2: the context of people who try to work through these 470 00:25:03,396 --> 00:25:07,996 Speaker 2: issues politically. An entire political party was born in the 471 00:25:08,036 --> 00:25:13,076 Speaker 2: early days of dissolution, meaning the Republican Party, because the 472 00:25:13,116 --> 00:25:15,796 Speaker 2: prior Whig Party couldn't work out its differences on this 473 00:25:15,916 --> 00:25:19,996 Speaker 2: question of expansion over slavery. The fact that the people 474 00:25:19,996 --> 00:25:23,836 Speaker 2: who were combatants and in our civil war had gone 475 00:25:23,876 --> 00:25:28,276 Speaker 2: to college together, had led together in political state houses 476 00:25:28,556 --> 00:25:33,076 Speaker 2: and the US Capitol, reminds me, at least as a historian, 477 00:25:33,156 --> 00:25:37,356 Speaker 2: that the line between normal and war is very thin. 478 00:25:39,076 --> 00:25:43,476 Speaker 2: And the thing that I think makes the future more 479 00:25:43,476 --> 00:25:48,116 Speaker 2: precarious than the prior Trump administration is that now trump 480 00:25:48,276 --> 00:25:52,676 Speaker 2: Ism has metastasized, and whatever governors we imagined in terms 481 00:25:52,676 --> 00:25:56,116 Speaker 2: of normalcy, amongst most elected officials, people like Mike Pence, 482 00:25:57,276 --> 00:26:00,276 Speaker 2: who was not too far away from being the victim 483 00:26:00,636 --> 00:26:05,116 Speaker 2: of a lynch mob on January sixth, like Mitch McConnell, 484 00:26:05,356 --> 00:26:08,676 Speaker 2: and like much of the Republican leadership, have accepted trump 485 00:26:08,756 --> 00:26:11,716 Speaker 2: Ism as a political base of the Republican Party and 486 00:26:11,796 --> 00:26:14,996 Speaker 2: seemed to have no capacity to reverse course from that. 487 00:26:15,596 --> 00:26:20,036 Speaker 2: So the again brothers in arms on different sides of 488 00:26:20,076 --> 00:26:23,876 Speaker 2: this equation led to nearly a million people dying in 489 00:26:23,876 --> 00:26:27,116 Speaker 2: this country. And I'm not convinced that what we think 490 00:26:27,156 --> 00:26:29,596 Speaker 2: of is normal today or is not something beyond the 491 00:26:29,636 --> 00:26:32,036 Speaker 2: pale isn't a reality for us all to come to 492 00:26:32,116 --> 00:26:34,796 Speaker 2: terms with. So when you say hyperbole, I say, we 493 00:26:34,836 --> 00:26:38,196 Speaker 2: need an appropriate early warning system. And I think that's 494 00:26:38,236 --> 00:26:39,836 Speaker 2: where Jeff's work is really helpful. 495 00:26:40,476 --> 00:26:42,516 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for the historical context. 496 00:26:42,636 --> 00:26:48,076 Speaker 4: And that makes me think in terms of. 497 00:26:46,636 --> 00:26:48,356 Speaker 1: The sort of the nearness of people. 498 00:26:48,916 --> 00:26:51,356 Speaker 4: The other objection that I often hear is like, you know, 499 00:26:51,836 --> 00:26:54,836 Speaker 4: either you had this north and the South whatever, and 500 00:26:54,876 --> 00:26:58,716 Speaker 4: now we're all mixed up. And you know that the 501 00:26:58,796 --> 00:27:02,236 Speaker 4: central trip of the book begins in Sacramento, California, where 502 00:27:02,356 --> 00:27:06,796 Speaker 4: I mean a young LATINX couple actually who are pretty 503 00:27:06,796 --> 00:27:10,916 Speaker 4: full Trump fascists, and they are leaving California. So we're 504 00:27:10,956 --> 00:27:13,836 Speaker 4: talking about, you know, these sort of blue supposedly blue areas. 505 00:27:15,236 --> 00:27:18,436 Speaker 4: They are sifting themselves out. They're moving inland. They said, 506 00:27:18,476 --> 00:27:22,316 Speaker 4: they wouldn't say exactly sure where maybe Oklahoma, looking for 507 00:27:22,956 --> 00:27:26,596 Speaker 4: red territory. And so there's a little bit of on 508 00:27:26,636 --> 00:27:28,996 Speaker 4: the one hand, this sort of centrifuging out of people 509 00:27:29,036 --> 00:27:31,556 Speaker 4: sorting themselves out. And of course I just met the 510 00:27:31,636 --> 00:27:35,196 Speaker 4: other day some folks who have moved from Texas to 511 00:27:35,956 --> 00:27:38,516 Speaker 4: sconnecting New York. They need to get out of Texas, 512 00:27:40,076 --> 00:27:43,076 Speaker 4: trans folks. I have friends who have moved out of 513 00:27:43,076 --> 00:27:46,636 Speaker 4: Wisconsin because they do not feel safe there. There's that, 514 00:27:47,516 --> 00:27:51,716 Speaker 4: and I think the advantage, the advantage of the alarm 515 00:27:51,796 --> 00:27:53,476 Speaker 4: is to sort of say, hey, look this is what 516 00:27:53,516 --> 00:27:54,796 Speaker 4: we're messing around. 517 00:27:54,476 --> 00:27:59,236 Speaker 3: With, all right, Jeff, this is powerful stuff and despairing 518 00:27:59,276 --> 00:28:01,556 Speaker 3: in some ways. That your book became a New York 519 00:28:01,556 --> 00:28:03,996 Speaker 3: Times bestseller is wonderful for you, but a little bit 520 00:28:04,196 --> 00:28:05,636 Speaker 3: problematic that this is where we have. 521 00:28:05,716 --> 00:28:07,796 Speaker 2: To know that's good, that's good. We wanted to be 522 00:28:07,836 --> 00:28:08,436 Speaker 2: a best seller. 523 00:28:09,476 --> 00:28:11,356 Speaker 5: I have to say, there was like some hope. I'm like, 524 00:28:11,396 --> 00:28:12,916 Speaker 5: what if I call it slow civil war? 525 00:28:13,076 --> 00:28:14,796 Speaker 4: But man, a year and a half from now and 526 00:28:14,876 --> 00:28:17,716 Speaker 4: this comes out he thinks of just so mellowed out 527 00:28:17,756 --> 00:28:22,156 Speaker 4: that people like, oh, give me a break, and instead 528 00:28:22,196 --> 00:28:24,836 Speaker 4: it's like, you know you do NPR and like can 529 00:28:24,876 --> 00:28:28,476 Speaker 4: I use the F word fascism? And they're like, oh yes, yes, please, 530 00:28:28,516 --> 00:28:32,236 Speaker 4: we better talk about that. And that's that's not good. 531 00:28:32,516 --> 00:28:33,916 Speaker 4: Better that the book be remaindered. 532 00:28:34,276 --> 00:28:35,996 Speaker 3: So when we come back from a short break, we're 533 00:28:36,036 --> 00:28:37,916 Speaker 3: going to talk about the future. We'll be right back. 534 00:28:52,956 --> 00:28:54,956 Speaker 2: Welcome back to some of my best friends are We're 535 00:28:54,956 --> 00:28:59,316 Speaker 2: talking to Jeff Charlotte today about his really powerful and 536 00:28:59,556 --> 00:29:05,676 Speaker 2: despairing and to some degree hopeful. Surprisingly enough, study about 537 00:29:05,716 --> 00:29:07,796 Speaker 2: a slow civil war. And why do I say hopeful. 538 00:29:07,916 --> 00:29:13,036 Speaker 2: It's hopeful because, Jeff, you opened with this surprising tribute 539 00:29:13,116 --> 00:29:18,276 Speaker 2: to Harry Belafonte. You talk about a man whose artistry 540 00:29:19,156 --> 00:29:22,396 Speaker 2: was his activism and who could never separate those two things, 541 00:29:22,956 --> 00:29:26,716 Speaker 2: and someone who just passed away this spring, just a 542 00:29:26,756 --> 00:29:30,036 Speaker 2: couple of weeks before the recording of this interview. I 543 00:29:30,156 --> 00:29:31,476 Speaker 2: have to say I was moved. 544 00:29:33,596 --> 00:29:34,076 Speaker 1: Ninety six. 545 00:29:34,476 --> 00:29:37,196 Speaker 2: I was moved by what you said about Harry Belafonte, 546 00:29:37,676 --> 00:29:41,196 Speaker 2: not just because I think people don't really appreciate the 547 00:29:41,236 --> 00:29:45,356 Speaker 2: life of this giant, but also because I knew Harry Belafonte. 548 00:29:45,516 --> 00:29:48,756 Speaker 2: I was at the Schomberg Center in some of the 549 00:29:48,836 --> 00:29:51,236 Speaker 2: last productive years of his life before he sort of 550 00:29:51,276 --> 00:29:54,556 Speaker 2: retreated from public life. I got to know him and 551 00:29:54,596 --> 00:29:57,356 Speaker 2: his wife, Pam. I've been in his apartment, and Harry 552 00:29:57,436 --> 00:30:01,396 Speaker 2: never mister B as we call him, never stopped moving 553 00:30:01,476 --> 00:30:05,796 Speaker 2: chess pieces on a board. He was always thinking about 554 00:30:06,156 --> 00:30:09,876 Speaker 2: where people needed to be on the battlefield racial justice 555 00:30:09,876 --> 00:30:13,236 Speaker 2: and social justice in this country. And I had just 556 00:30:13,716 --> 00:30:16,196 Speaker 2: taken a job at Harvard's twenty sixteen, and he sits 557 00:30:16,236 --> 00:30:19,036 Speaker 2: down with me in his apartment and he says, I 558 00:30:19,076 --> 00:30:22,996 Speaker 2: need you to take over Sankofa, which is an organization 559 00:30:23,196 --> 00:30:25,996 Speaker 2: that he started that Dina Belafonte's dart is leaving now. 560 00:30:26,156 --> 00:30:30,636 Speaker 2: It's a cultural organization committed to sort of building the 561 00:30:30,636 --> 00:30:35,196 Speaker 2: cultural muscle and infrastructure of social justice warriors and of 562 00:30:35,236 --> 00:30:37,756 Speaker 2: the left more generally. And while we're in the middle 563 00:30:37,756 --> 00:30:39,876 Speaker 2: of this conversation, I'm like, oh shit, like I just 564 00:30:39,916 --> 00:30:42,076 Speaker 2: got this job at Harvard. I can't turn mister B down, 565 00:30:42,116 --> 00:30:46,076 Speaker 2: Like what is happening right now? That was one of 566 00:30:46,156 --> 00:30:49,876 Speaker 2: the hardest knows I ever had to give to somebody, 567 00:30:49,916 --> 00:30:52,476 Speaker 2: to turn mister be down for an opportunity to help 568 00:30:52,476 --> 00:30:53,556 Speaker 2: be part of his legacy. 569 00:30:53,596 --> 00:30:56,396 Speaker 3: But oh boy, what a guy, what a. 570 00:30:56,316 --> 00:31:00,076 Speaker 2: Person, what a human being? And tell us, like, why 571 00:31:00,116 --> 00:31:02,676 Speaker 2: do you tell us about Harry Belafonte in this book? 572 00:31:02,716 --> 00:31:05,596 Speaker 2: What is the message about the future you are trying 573 00:31:05,596 --> 00:31:08,236 Speaker 2: to impart from someone who just left us. 574 00:31:09,196 --> 00:31:12,796 Speaker 4: I wanted to start the book, which I was writing 575 00:31:12,916 --> 00:31:16,116 Speaker 4: partly because I have a fourteen year old non binary 576 00:31:16,196 --> 00:31:20,916 Speaker 4: trans kid who is despairing and I was looking for 577 00:31:21,036 --> 00:31:25,636 Speaker 4: some hope, but not cheap grace. And I thought, Okay, 578 00:31:25,716 --> 00:31:27,996 Speaker 4: that's what mister B is. And I think about all 579 00:31:27,996 --> 00:31:29,396 Speaker 4: these tributes since he died. 580 00:31:29,196 --> 00:31:29,996 Speaker 1: And I've done. 581 00:31:30,276 --> 00:31:31,516 Speaker 5: There's someone who wrote about him. 582 00:31:31,916 --> 00:31:34,796 Speaker 4: You do some interviews and so on, and there's a 583 00:31:34,796 --> 00:31:37,916 Speaker 4: certain kind of folks who's sort of really surprised to 584 00:31:37,956 --> 00:31:38,876 Speaker 4: hear that he was angry. 585 00:31:39,476 --> 00:31:41,956 Speaker 5: Right, I'm like, oh, yeah, that guy was angry all 586 00:31:42,076 --> 00:31:42,636 Speaker 5: his days. 587 00:31:43,196 --> 00:31:46,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, he cursed a lot, he did not miss words. 588 00:31:47,356 --> 00:31:49,236 Speaker 4: Yeah, they want him to be a sweet old man. 589 00:31:49,436 --> 00:31:52,196 Speaker 4: And the hope is that anger In that line he 590 00:31:52,276 --> 00:31:54,596 Speaker 4: says that I think is really powerful. It says where 591 00:31:54,636 --> 00:31:57,076 Speaker 4: your anger comes from doesn't matter as much as what 592 00:31:57,116 --> 00:31:57,716 Speaker 4: you do with it. 593 00:31:57,836 --> 00:31:57,996 Speaker 1: Now. 594 00:31:58,036 --> 00:32:01,036 Speaker 4: It matters where it comes from, but not as much 595 00:32:01,116 --> 00:32:04,436 Speaker 4: as what you do with it. And that transformation. The 596 00:32:04,436 --> 00:32:06,796 Speaker 4: other thing that you said is that the culture is 597 00:32:07,556 --> 00:32:09,796 Speaker 4: his art and his activism are one and the same. 598 00:32:09,876 --> 00:32:12,076 Speaker 4: So to those of us urging us to see culture 599 00:32:12,156 --> 00:32:15,076 Speaker 4: as somehow a separate issue, not for this guy in 600 00:32:15,156 --> 00:32:18,116 Speaker 4: ninety six years in the struggle who transformed American. 601 00:32:17,716 --> 00:32:21,796 Speaker 3: Life, Jeff Hope, but not cheap grace is a beautiful line. 602 00:32:23,796 --> 00:32:25,556 Speaker 3: Maybe I'm being more of the e or in this 603 00:32:25,596 --> 00:32:31,356 Speaker 3: conversation again, but he's dead, he died, and you're you're 604 00:32:31,436 --> 00:32:34,036 Speaker 3: you're talking about a kind of activism that is a 605 00:32:34,076 --> 00:32:36,556 Speaker 3: thing of the past, literally like he's he's a relic, 606 00:32:36,956 --> 00:32:39,036 Speaker 3: and you know, so I worry about that of like 607 00:32:39,036 --> 00:32:42,756 Speaker 3: whether this continues. And so then the question is, how 608 00:32:42,756 --> 00:32:46,676 Speaker 3: do you see sort of the Belafontes today doing this work, 609 00:32:46,716 --> 00:32:49,516 Speaker 3: Like who is carrying on that legacy that we're supposed 610 00:32:49,516 --> 00:32:51,876 Speaker 3: to see this work still happening? Where do we see 611 00:32:51,916 --> 00:32:55,036 Speaker 3: the resistance? Where do we see the fighting? Where do 612 00:32:55,076 --> 00:32:57,076 Speaker 3: we see the protest? 613 00:32:57,916 --> 00:33:01,556 Speaker 5: I mean partly, isn't it what this show is supposed 614 00:33:01,556 --> 00:33:01,756 Speaker 5: to be? 615 00:33:03,596 --> 00:33:03,956 Speaker 4: Right here? 616 00:33:04,076 --> 00:33:05,956 Speaker 3: Kid, right here? That that's what we're looking for? A 617 00:33:06,036 --> 00:33:08,596 Speaker 3: ding ding ding you are now you are now one 618 00:33:08,636 --> 00:33:10,636 Speaker 3: of our best. 619 00:33:12,996 --> 00:33:15,796 Speaker 4: Well actually, like let's think about this like cultural historians 620 00:33:15,836 --> 00:33:17,716 Speaker 4: and always astonishes me. I don't know if historians are 621 00:33:17,716 --> 00:33:19,556 Speaker 4: doing it, but I'm in an English department and there's 622 00:33:19,636 --> 00:33:24,196 Speaker 4: nobody paying attention to podcasting as a text of our times, 623 00:33:24,636 --> 00:33:28,036 Speaker 4: which is astonishing to me because it seems really relevant 624 00:33:28,076 --> 00:33:30,516 Speaker 4: and there's a lot of challenge, you know, and we 625 00:33:30,516 --> 00:33:32,916 Speaker 4: could each little podcast, we could say, oh, is that 626 00:33:32,956 --> 00:33:33,996 Speaker 4: really making the difference? 627 00:33:35,116 --> 00:33:35,316 Speaker 5: No? 628 00:33:35,396 --> 00:33:38,876 Speaker 4: And each fundraiser mister b did whatever, Did that really 629 00:33:38,876 --> 00:33:39,596 Speaker 4: make the difference? 630 00:33:39,916 --> 00:33:39,996 Speaker 5: No? 631 00:33:40,196 --> 00:33:42,796 Speaker 4: In fact he was defeated. Right, that's part of the 632 00:33:42,836 --> 00:33:45,116 Speaker 4: hope not cheap grace. And that's why it ends with 633 00:33:45,196 --> 00:33:47,996 Speaker 4: this other line that I always knew the last line 634 00:33:48,036 --> 00:33:49,236 Speaker 4: of the book was going to be this line from 635 00:33:49,236 --> 00:33:52,196 Speaker 4: this guy, Lee Hayes, a songwriter who was broken by 636 00:33:52,196 --> 00:33:53,236 Speaker 4: the Red Scare. 637 00:33:53,476 --> 00:33:55,796 Speaker 1: And he says, from the nineteen fifties. 638 00:33:55,756 --> 00:33:58,516 Speaker 4: Nineteen fifties, and you know, people know HI from me 639 00:33:58,516 --> 00:34:00,796 Speaker 4: if I had a hammer like the American Songbook. He's 640 00:34:00,796 --> 00:34:04,356 Speaker 4: Pete Seeger's songwriting partner, and he's got this line, for 641 00:34:04,396 --> 00:34:07,196 Speaker 4: a while, it was possible not to be scared even 642 00:34:07,916 --> 00:34:11,276 Speaker 4: And he's describing seemed very much like one that mister 643 00:34:11,316 --> 00:34:13,156 Speaker 4: b endured of being chased through. 644 00:34:13,716 --> 00:34:15,836 Speaker 1: For mister b it's being chased by the clan. 645 00:34:15,636 --> 00:34:21,436 Speaker 5: Through the Mississippi Nightsissippi. For Lee, it's being chased in Arkansas. 646 00:34:21,516 --> 00:34:23,796 Speaker 4: He's in a car with union organizers and gun thugs 647 00:34:23,836 --> 00:34:26,716 Speaker 4: are on their tail, and they're singing hymns, and he says, 648 00:34:26,716 --> 00:34:29,036 Speaker 4: for while, it was possible not to be scared even then. 649 00:34:29,116 --> 00:34:31,796 Speaker 4: Let me put this in the context of an activist 650 00:34:31,876 --> 00:34:34,676 Speaker 4: named Suzanne Farr, who I met some years ago, a 651 00:34:34,876 --> 00:34:41,956 Speaker 4: very sweet, old white Southern grandmotherly lady. She had built 652 00:34:41,996 --> 00:34:46,996 Speaker 4: a lesbian separatist commune in rural Arkansas, I believe it was. 653 00:34:47,836 --> 00:34:52,636 Speaker 4: And then these these these his head women start showing up, 654 00:34:52,836 --> 00:34:55,996 Speaker 4: running from their violent partners and said, will you take 655 00:34:56,076 --> 00:34:57,836 Speaker 4: us in? So they took them in, and then the 656 00:34:57,876 --> 00:35:01,636 Speaker 4: partners come with their guns, and Suzanne and her comrades 657 00:35:01,676 --> 00:35:04,756 Speaker 4: stand the ground, and I was with Suzanne and a 658 00:35:04,796 --> 00:35:07,836 Speaker 4: younger activist, and the younger activist says, oh, that's so 659 00:35:07,956 --> 00:35:09,756 Speaker 4: wonderful you built us. 660 00:35:10,156 --> 00:35:13,356 Speaker 5: And Suzanne's sweet old grandmother puts her hand on the 661 00:35:13,396 --> 00:35:17,516 Speaker 5: younger activist's hand and says, oh, honey, noah, no fucking 662 00:35:17,636 --> 00:35:18,516 Speaker 5: safe spaces. 663 00:35:19,956 --> 00:35:21,676 Speaker 1: But there might be these safe moments. 664 00:35:21,956 --> 00:35:24,596 Speaker 4: Right for a while, it was possible not to be scared, 665 00:35:24,636 --> 00:35:27,316 Speaker 4: even like, where is that work happening? It's not happening 666 00:35:27,596 --> 00:35:29,796 Speaker 4: so much in a space as in moments. Maybe the 667 00:35:29,836 --> 00:35:33,596 Speaker 4: moment is a podcast, maybe the moment is there. But 668 00:35:33,636 --> 00:35:36,036 Speaker 4: you're right, I can't point to anyone. I mean, Harry, 669 00:35:36,116 --> 00:35:40,716 Speaker 4: I think ninety six years he ran the good race, 670 00:35:40,756 --> 00:35:42,676 Speaker 4: Like who is the next mister b. We don't know. 671 00:35:42,796 --> 00:35:45,556 Speaker 4: We'll know after they have lived their ninety six years. 672 00:35:45,556 --> 00:35:49,676 Speaker 4: I'm like, God, damn that person. We didn't realize all 673 00:35:49,716 --> 00:35:52,476 Speaker 4: that they were doing. They are there among us. That 674 00:35:52,516 --> 00:35:54,596 Speaker 4: doesn't mean we win, but it means we could. 675 00:35:55,156 --> 00:35:57,956 Speaker 3: Yeah, we need to expand those moments. We need to 676 00:35:57,996 --> 00:36:01,436 Speaker 3: expand those moments so that they become our reality. 677 00:36:02,276 --> 00:36:05,716 Speaker 2: Jeff Charlotte, it was amazing to have you on today. 678 00:36:06,476 --> 00:36:08,116 Speaker 2: You've shared a lot with us that we all need 679 00:36:08,156 --> 00:36:11,876 Speaker 2: to pay attention to. Go folks, go out there. Continue 680 00:36:11,876 --> 00:36:14,516 Speaker 2: to keep this book on the bestseller list for the 681 00:36:14,516 --> 00:36:19,076 Speaker 2: New York Times. Jeff Charlotte, The Undertow. We're just grateful 682 00:36:19,076 --> 00:36:21,076 Speaker 2: for what you've done and what you'll continue to write about. 683 00:36:21,436 --> 00:36:23,916 Speaker 3: And Jeff, we've been on this journey alongside one another 684 00:36:23,916 --> 00:36:29,036 Speaker 3: for twenty years. Let's keep it going another twenty all right, 685 00:36:29,036 --> 00:36:29,796 Speaker 3: take care, Thank you. 686 00:36:37,956 --> 00:36:41,756 Speaker 2: Oh man, this was a really powerful conversation with Jeff 687 00:36:42,156 --> 00:36:45,236 Speaker 2: ben And I don't know, there's something that stuck out 688 00:36:45,276 --> 00:36:49,556 Speaker 2: to me at the top of the conversation when Jeff 689 00:36:49,636 --> 00:36:54,156 Speaker 2: described this book The Undertow in terms of like a 690 00:36:54,196 --> 00:36:56,676 Speaker 2: social movement on the right. I mean, often we hear 691 00:36:56,716 --> 00:37:00,116 Speaker 2: the words populism, but this notion that it could be 692 00:37:00,156 --> 00:37:03,996 Speaker 2: a social movement, you know, it doesn't hit our ears 693 00:37:04,036 --> 00:37:06,316 Speaker 2: the same way that we often think about social movements 694 00:37:06,316 --> 00:37:10,196 Speaker 2: as always being about the expansion of democracy, justice, truth, 695 00:37:10,356 --> 00:37:11,516 Speaker 2: And because where he's. 696 00:37:11,556 --> 00:37:14,276 Speaker 3: Thinking about social movements on the left, you mean, like, yeah, 697 00:37:14,516 --> 00:37:16,236 Speaker 3: and that's right, he's talking about it on the right 698 00:37:16,276 --> 00:37:20,396 Speaker 3: of this this rising tide, that it's organized. Yeah, that's right. 699 00:37:20,676 --> 00:37:24,276 Speaker 2: And the extent to which he's right makes perfect sense 700 00:37:24,316 --> 00:37:28,276 Speaker 2: when we look at the grassroots mobilization down to local 701 00:37:28,316 --> 00:37:33,316 Speaker 2: school boards fighting for misinformation and censorship, and like, when 702 00:37:33,316 --> 00:37:37,356 Speaker 2: he talks about fascism as a mass movement, it reminded 703 00:37:37,396 --> 00:37:41,156 Speaker 2: me of this essay that Tony Morrison wrote in nineteen 704 00:37:41,236 --> 00:37:41,876 Speaker 2: ninety five. 705 00:37:41,836 --> 00:37:44,236 Speaker 3: Get Literary. I love it. I love it Getting Literary. 706 00:37:44,396 --> 00:37:46,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really powerful quote, and I think it 707 00:37:46,196 --> 00:37:49,196 Speaker 2: speaks to this moment so clearly. She said, fascism can 708 00:37:49,236 --> 00:37:54,116 Speaker 2: only reproduce the environment that supports its own health, fear, denial, 709 00:37:54,636 --> 00:37:57,516 Speaker 2: and an atmosphere in which its victims have lost the 710 00:37:57,556 --> 00:37:58,316 Speaker 2: will to fight. 711 00:37:58,756 --> 00:37:59,716 Speaker 3: Okay, break it down. 712 00:38:00,356 --> 00:38:02,396 Speaker 2: Well, I just think that what Jeff is telling us 713 00:38:02,436 --> 00:38:05,836 Speaker 2: in this book is that the other side is mobilizing 714 00:38:05,876 --> 00:38:10,276 Speaker 2: to fucking fight, like that's what they're doing. And he 715 00:38:10,396 --> 00:38:14,156 Speaker 2: talked about casualties already, you know, even including victims of 716 00:38:14,236 --> 00:38:19,116 Speaker 2: reproductive injustice and talking about of course the proliferation of 717 00:38:19,196 --> 00:38:22,236 Speaker 2: guns on the right and the mass killings. 718 00:38:21,876 --> 00:38:23,916 Speaker 3: And his own child, like his fear for his own 719 00:38:23,996 --> 00:38:26,636 Speaker 3: child who is non binary. Yeah, that's right. 720 00:38:26,916 --> 00:38:31,276 Speaker 2: And so I think as we move forward in this moment, 721 00:38:31,436 --> 00:38:33,796 Speaker 2: I think part of the challenge on the left is 722 00:38:33,836 --> 00:38:36,676 Speaker 2: to meet the challenge of a social movement, which is 723 00:38:36,716 --> 00:38:38,836 Speaker 2: to say that a lot more people have to be 724 00:38:38,956 --> 00:38:42,356 Speaker 2: mobilized to stand up for the democracy that they claim 725 00:38:42,436 --> 00:38:43,076 Speaker 2: to believe in. 726 00:38:43,596 --> 00:38:46,316 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. I mean because then it's also 727 00:38:46,476 --> 00:38:49,996 Speaker 3: why to give a bigger platform to these issues is 728 00:38:50,036 --> 00:38:52,356 Speaker 3: because we have to figure out how to confront them. 729 00:38:52,836 --> 00:38:54,836 Speaker 3: We have to organize, we have to have a social 730 00:38:54,876 --> 00:38:58,436 Speaker 3: movement that matches in some ways what's actually going on. 731 00:38:58,916 --> 00:39:01,996 Speaker 3: We have to know the other side much more, much better. 732 00:39:02,396 --> 00:39:04,916 Speaker 2: That's right, And I mean then thinking about like how 733 00:39:04,916 --> 00:39:07,116 Speaker 2: do you do that? I mean, part of it, even 734 00:39:07,156 --> 00:39:10,636 Speaker 2: having this conversation about Harry Belafonte, is also about the 735 00:39:10,676 --> 00:39:15,396 Speaker 2: power of culture to mobilize people, meaning that the symbols, 736 00:39:15,796 --> 00:39:21,516 Speaker 2: the sound, the music, then stories we tell are all 737 00:39:21,636 --> 00:39:24,836 Speaker 2: part of the infrastructure that you need to build a 738 00:39:24,876 --> 00:39:27,916 Speaker 2: social movement. And the right is clearly mobilized to do that. 739 00:39:28,036 --> 00:39:30,796 Speaker 2: The Left seems to be still trying to figure this out. 740 00:39:31,316 --> 00:39:36,716 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, you talk about bringing 741 00:39:36,996 --> 00:39:40,556 Speaker 3: a knife or a pen to a gunfight, and you 742 00:39:40,596 --> 00:39:43,396 Speaker 3: know that's part of what's so scary about this is 743 00:39:43,436 --> 00:39:48,236 Speaker 3: that the proliferation of guns, of bringing automatic weapons just 744 00:39:48,516 --> 00:39:50,996 Speaker 3: holding them on the street. I don't think the answer 745 00:39:51,036 --> 00:39:53,996 Speaker 3: is to respond with the same. You know, we have 746 00:39:54,076 --> 00:39:56,396 Speaker 3: this disease of guns in this country, and certainly, like 747 00:39:56,516 --> 00:39:59,076 Speaker 3: what he is witnessing by travel the country is seeing 748 00:39:59,636 --> 00:40:04,876 Speaker 3: the sort of cult the religion of guns. Yeah. I mean, 749 00:40:04,916 --> 00:40:07,436 Speaker 3: there's a way we have to confront that. And what 750 00:40:07,476 --> 00:40:11,076 Speaker 3: you're describing I don't think is like, you know, matching 751 00:40:11,116 --> 00:40:13,476 Speaker 3: weapons to weapons, which is not a slow sive a war, 752 00:40:13,556 --> 00:40:18,076 Speaker 3: but a fast one. But there is some deeper kind 753 00:40:18,076 --> 00:40:21,316 Speaker 3: of organizing and even cultural movement which has to happen. 754 00:40:22,556 --> 00:40:26,716 Speaker 2: Yes, And when Tony Morrison says the victims have lost 755 00:40:26,756 --> 00:40:30,476 Speaker 2: the will to fight, listen, the world is a violent place. 756 00:40:30,516 --> 00:40:32,556 Speaker 2: There are one hundred and ninety three countries in the world. 757 00:40:32,836 --> 00:40:35,636 Speaker 2: Conflict happens. There's a war in Russia and Ukraine. The 758 00:40:35,716 --> 00:40:39,436 Speaker 2: Ukrainians didn't sit around and wait to have a debate 759 00:40:39,556 --> 00:40:43,116 Speaker 2: when bomb started dropping and when violence occurred, and so 760 00:40:43,436 --> 00:40:45,636 Speaker 2: I just think we have to be really honest about 761 00:40:45,636 --> 00:40:48,036 Speaker 2: what's happening in this country, and we have to use 762 00:40:48,116 --> 00:40:51,196 Speaker 2: all the tools at our disposal, including culture, including the 763 00:40:51,276 --> 00:40:54,356 Speaker 2: right to self defense, including the right to stand up 764 00:40:54,436 --> 00:40:57,476 Speaker 2: for truth and justice wherever it is necessary, in all 765 00:40:57,476 --> 00:41:00,516 Speaker 2: the places that is required because the other side is 766 00:41:00,596 --> 00:41:02,276 Speaker 2: not playing games. 767 00:41:03,076 --> 00:41:07,316 Speaker 3: I'm hearing you by any means necessary, And I just 768 00:41:07,356 --> 00:41:10,476 Speaker 3: want to say I'm glad if we're not on the 769 00:41:10,476 --> 00:41:12,636 Speaker 3: front lines, I'm glad we're on the second lines together. 770 00:41:12,756 --> 00:41:15,476 Speaker 3: So I love you, rel love you too. 771 00:41:22,516 --> 00:41:24,876 Speaker 2: Some of My Best Friends Are is a production of 772 00:41:24,956 --> 00:41:28,836 Speaker 2: Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted by me Khalil, 773 00:41:28,916 --> 00:41:31,516 Speaker 2: Jabon Muhammad and my best friend Ben Austin. 774 00:41:31,716 --> 00:41:35,636 Speaker 3: It's produced by Lucy Sullivan. Our associate producer is Rachel Yang. 775 00:41:36,156 --> 00:41:39,436 Speaker 3: It's edited by Sarah Nix with help from Keishel Williams. 776 00:41:39,796 --> 00:41:43,596 Speaker 3: Our engineer is Amanda ka Wang, and our managing producer 777 00:41:43,756 --> 00:41:45,916 Speaker 3: is Constanza Guyardo. 778 00:41:46,036 --> 00:41:51,876 Speaker 2: At Pushkin, Thanks Salitol, Molad, Julia Barton, Heather Faine, Carly Migliori, 779 00:41:52,236 --> 00:41:55,876 Speaker 2: John schnarz Retta Cone, and Jacob Weisberg. 780 00:41:56,116 --> 00:41:59,836 Speaker 3: Our theme song Little Lily is by fellow Chicagoan the 781 00:41:59,956 --> 00:42:03,876 Speaker 3: brilliant Avery R. Young from his album Tubman. You definitely 782 00:42:03,876 --> 00:42:06,876 Speaker 3: want to check out his music at his website, Averyaryung 783 00:42:06,996 --> 00:42:07,596 Speaker 3: dot com. 784 00:42:07,716 --> 00:42:10,436 Speaker 2: You can find Pushkin on all all social platforms at 785 00:42:10,476 --> 00:42:13,636 Speaker 2: pushkin pods and you can sign up for our newsletter 786 00:42:13,676 --> 00:42:17,836 Speaker 2: at pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen 787 00:42:17,916 --> 00:42:21,556 Speaker 2: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. 788 00:42:21,676 --> 00:42:24,236 Speaker 3: Like to listen. And if you like our show, please 789 00:42:24,276 --> 00:42:27,076 Speaker 3: give us a five star rating and a review and listen. 790 00:42:27,116 --> 00:42:28,476 Speaker 3: Even if you don't like it, give it a five 791 00:42:28,516 --> 00:42:31,436 Speaker 3: star rating and a review, and please tell all of 792 00:42:31,476 --> 00:42:33,476 Speaker 3: your best friends about it. Thank you. 793 00:42:38,156 --> 00:42:38,436 Speaker 5: You