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Speaker 1: It's very difficult to keep the line between the.

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Speaker 2: Past and the press, who believe that someone out of

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Speaker 2: the past can enter and take possession of a living being.

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Speaker 3: We may be through with the past, but the past

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Speaker 3: is not true with us. Welcome back to the Next

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Speaker 3: Picture Show, a movie of the Week podcast devoted to

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Speaker 3: a classic film and the way it shaped our thoughts

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Speaker 3: on a recent release. I'm Scott Tobias here again.

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Speaker 2: With Genevieve Cooski and Tasha Robinson.

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Speaker 3: On our last episode, we talked about Casino, Martin Scorsese's

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Speaker 3: epic story about the rise and fall of the mob

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Speaker 3: controlled Tangiers in Las Vegas. On this episode, we're bringing

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Speaker 3: in Lorraine Scafaria's Hustlers, which has earned a lot of

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Speaker 3: comparisons to Scarsese for its robust depiction of a criminal

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Speaker 3: scam operating in the shadow of a legitimate business. Here

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Speaker 3: that business is a high end strip club in two

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Speaker 3: thousand and seven, where Destiny, an exotic dancer played by

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Speaker 3: Constance Wu befriends Ramona, the club superstar dancer played by

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Speaker 3: Jennifer Lopez. The more experienced Ramona takes Destiny under her wing,

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Speaker 3: showing how to lure the biggest Wall Street whales into

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Speaker 3: charging thousands of dollars in drinks and lap dances to

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Speaker 3: their credit cards. When the economy takes a turn, Ramona

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Speaker 3: brings Destiny and two other women, Mercedes and Annabelle, into

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Speaker 3: a freelance scam that limits the cut the club can take.

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Speaker 3: Targeting rich men at bars and using an experimental concoction

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Speaker 3: of ketamine and MDMA to impair their memory and judgment.

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Speaker 3: The women keep their marks conscious enough only to max

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Speaker 3: out their credit cards and not remember much of what

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Speaker 3: happened in the morning. Their logic is that these men

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Speaker 3: won't want to raise much of a fuss about it,

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Speaker 3: much like casino. It's not all smooth sailing, however, and

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Speaker 3: there are consequences, both legal and personal, that await them

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Speaker 3: down the line. Based on the New York Magazine article

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Speaker 3: The Hustlers at Scores by Jessica Presler, the film is

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Speaker 3: about scammers, scamming scammers, and the system that determines which

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Speaker 3: scams are legitimate. We'll talk about it after the break.

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Speaker 4: I don't want to be dependent on anybody.

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Speaker 2: I just want to be able to take care of

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Speaker 2: my grandma, maybe go shopping every once in a while

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Speaker 2: Wall Street guys.

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Speaker 5: You want them drunk enough to get their credit card,

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Speaker 5: it's okay, but sober enough to sign a check. We

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Speaker 5: didn't do anything wrong, you know, Tony wouldn't let this happen.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna text him.

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Speaker 4: Gave a phone back.

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Speaker 1: Good step, just to bring your kids. Fuck are you in?

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Speaker 4: So? What did everyone think?

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Speaker 2: I loved the first act of this movie and then

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Speaker 2: spent the rest of it wishing to go back there.

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Speaker 2: I think this movie there's a lot in it to like,

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Speaker 2: especially in the performances, although maybe not all of them,

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Speaker 2: which we can perhaps get into, but that like introductory

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Speaker 2: section where you're introduced to this world, into these characters,

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Speaker 2: and it's very similar to Casino in that in the

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Speaker 2: first you know, twenty twenty five minutes of this movie

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Speaker 2: are really narcotic and draw you into this world. But

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Speaker 2: I feel like once it gets into the specifics of

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Speaker 2: the crime and how it falls apart, it loses the

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Speaker 2: threat a little bit. It condenses things and prioritizes things

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Speaker 2: in a way that I feel you don't really get

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Speaker 2: a good sense of the danger or the effect of

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Speaker 2: this hustle on its victims. I think this movie is

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Speaker 2: trying to maybe present its protagonists as more maybe not sympathetic,

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Speaker 2: but like gives more credence to their suspect motives than

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Speaker 2: it perhaps should in twisting them through a sort of

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Speaker 2: feminist lens. And I think that actually does a kind

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Speaker 2: of a disservice to the movie, Particularly in the relationship

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Speaker 2: between constants wom and Jennifer Lopez's characters. I think it

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Speaker 2: tries to make their friendship more central to the story

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Speaker 2: than it was in real life, but also in doing that,

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Speaker 2: I think it loses the thread when it comes time

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Speaker 2: to show that relationship falling apart. We can parse specifics

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Speaker 2: a little more, but generally speaking, I liked a lot

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Speaker 2: of this movie and the early going. I liked parts

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Speaker 2: of it as it continued on, for sure, And I

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Speaker 2: do think that the praise that Jennifer Lopez is a

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Speaker 2: getting for her performance it's mostly earned, but it just

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Speaker 2: it didn't hold together for me in a satisfying way.

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Speaker 2: Coming out of the theater, Tajha, I.

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Speaker 5: Found it pretty unsatisfying too. Although I'm in a strange

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Speaker 5: position with this film, having seen it in the middle

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Speaker 5: of tiff, in the middle of a bunch of movies

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Speaker 5: that I enjoyed a lot more. I can't help but

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Speaker 5: wonder if I would have had a better experience if

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Speaker 5: I'd seen it more as a stand alone And I

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Speaker 5: suspect I would have had a better experience if I

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Speaker 5: enjoyed Martin scorsesees crime movies more, because this is it

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Speaker 5: feels so much like a female version of a Martin

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Speaker 5: Scorsese crime movie, And some part of me is just

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Speaker 5: really grateful that this movie got made. You know that

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Speaker 5: it's out in the world, that this exact specific genre

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Speaker 5: of movie is being made in a different way than

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Speaker 5: it's been made over and over and over and over

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Speaker 5: for decades. But at the same time, I just didn't

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Speaker 5: connect with it very much. And it kind of comes

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Speaker 5: down to a lot of the same complaints that I

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Speaker 5: had with Casino to kind of get ahead of ourselves

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Speaker 5: on connections. It's sort of a feeling that I didn't

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Speaker 5: in the end know many of these people very well

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Speaker 5: at all. That I was being told in voice over

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Speaker 5: who they were and how I was supposed to feel

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Speaker 5: about who they were. But like in the end, I

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Speaker 5: kept waiting for the big twist where Ramona revealed herself

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Speaker 5: as either really in need of a family or really

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Speaker 5: venal and using everybody, And I'm not sure the film

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Speaker 5: ever really got to a point of figuring out who

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Speaker 5: she is. I'm not sure that the film ever really

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Speaker 5: figured out who Destiny is. We kind of see her

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Speaker 5: in the frame story as someone who's apparently achieved an

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Speaker 5: upper middle class level of life, but we don't really

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Speaker 5: know how she got there, Like did she finally learn

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Speaker 5: to save money instead of blowing it on chinchilla coats?

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Speaker 5: Or did she work her way into a better education

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Speaker 5: and a better job, or did she marry money We

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Speaker 5: assume she didn't inherit it. I just I don't know

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Speaker 5: how we get from the woman we see at the

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Speaker 5: beginning of the movie to the woman we see well

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Speaker 5: in the framing story of the movie, And it just

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Speaker 5: it seems really telling, like over and over, I kind

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Speaker 5: of find myself saying, but I don't know who these

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Speaker 5: people are. What I do know is that they're incredibly

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Speaker 5: invested in shopping, montages and designer gear, all of which

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Speaker 5: is just not a very relatable goal for me. I

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Speaker 5: found it fascinating that the movie has all of these

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Speaker 5: elements of like they have kids to support, they don't

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Speaker 5: necessarily have the best educations.

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Speaker 1: They don't have a lot of options.

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Speaker 5: They feel trapped, but when they get out of being trapped,

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Speaker 5: their way of expressing that is by buying ridiculously overpriced,

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Speaker 5: you know, designer brand stuff and like luxuries they don't need.

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Speaker 5: And I just I kept thinking, I'm just finding it

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Speaker 5: really hard to care about their goals or about their

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Speaker 5: willingness to do horrible things to achieve their goals, which

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Speaker 5: is a problem that I can have in crime movies

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Speaker 5: in general, and Scorsese movies in general have the same

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Speaker 5: kind of difficulty relating to Robert de Niro, like living

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Speaker 5: in a giant luxury pad and still attaching himself to

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Speaker 5: this like horrible, destructive woman.

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Speaker 1: Who abuses his child.

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Speaker 5: So I think it comes down to the same things

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Speaker 5: that sort of disconnected me from Casino disconnected me here.

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Speaker 5: I don't hate either movie. It's difficult sometimes to defend

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Speaker 5: a All right, that was okay reaction. It's not very

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Speaker 5: sexy trying to fight for a mm hmm, yeah, that

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Speaker 5: was fine. But a lot of my reaction to Hustlers

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Speaker 5: was Okay, that was fine. I'm glad it's in the world.

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Speaker 5: It's really not for me.

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Speaker 3: Wow, I did not expect expect that you don't like,

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Speaker 3: because I mean, really, I like that I like this

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Speaker 3: film more than the two of you. Clearly, I do

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Speaker 3: not think it's a but I think that all three

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Speaker 3: of us have a lower opinion of it than most.

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Speaker 3: I mean, this is a film that was hugely celebrated

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Speaker 3: out of Toronto. I've seen some pretty out of control

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Speaker 3: hyperbole and exalting the film as being like, what do

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Speaker 3: we even need scorcees for anymore? I've I've seen things

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Speaker 3: like that float around, and I certainly don't agree with that,

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Speaker 3: but I do admire the film's brio, and I think

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Speaker 3: that the film like Casino, works really well when it's

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Speaker 3: laying out the system and how it works and what

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Speaker 3: and what you know. I think what the scam becomes

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Speaker 3: a little more confusing when they take it out of

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Speaker 3: the club and get other people involved. And I think

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of questions that I have about that

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Speaker 3: part of the movie that aren't made particularly clear. But

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Speaker 3: I think it is pretty clear in the beginning and

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Speaker 3: kind of exciting and very pointed in terms of when

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Speaker 3: they decide to start freelancing like this. I mean, they

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Speaker 3: start at the club, you know, and Jennifer Lopez is

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Speaker 3: showing Constance Woo how to make money and how to

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Speaker 3: identify the men who have deep pockets and how to

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Speaker 3: get them in a place to where they're going to

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Speaker 3: spend a lot of money, and what those moves are.

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Speaker 3: All that stuff is really fascinating. And then it's fast

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Speaker 3: fascinating to me that once you hit that economic downturn

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Speaker 3: that is caused by the same sort of sleeze balls

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Speaker 3: who who frequent the strip clubs, but no longer, you

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Speaker 3: get this kind of moral relativism on their part where

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Speaker 3: it's like I can justify ripping them off because they

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Speaker 3: ripped off the country, you know, And why can't I

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Speaker 3: have some of mine too? I mean, why is what

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Speaker 3: they're doing acceptable? And why can't I get mine? And

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Speaker 3: I think it's important too that they you know. I mean,

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Speaker 3: maybe there's one too many shopping montages, but I think

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Speaker 3: there is a desire on a lot of people's parts

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Speaker 3: to have things when especially when they come from a

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Speaker 3: place where they don't have things, to be able to

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Speaker 3: have that extra money, not just to spend on a

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Speaker 3: nice house or apartment, as we see in the movie,

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Speaker 3: but also on those chinchilla coats and on expensive shoes,

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Speaker 3: in jewelry and kind of really enjoy the material things

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Speaker 3: that they had to deny themselves for so long. So

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of release in that. And I think

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Speaker 3: the film has got that anecdotal quality that makes it

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Speaker 3: kind of fun. I mean, it's it's got a lot

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Speaker 3: of really good musical sequences, a lot of energy, a

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Speaker 3: lot of style. I mean, I had a good time

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Speaker 3: with it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll agree with you on thinking that there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of cinematic brio as you put it on display

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Speaker 2: here and really responding to that. And I will say

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Speaker 2: I liked all the shopping sequences. Give me more shopping sequences,

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Speaker 2: like like like.

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Speaker 1: I'm shopping sequences.

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Speaker 2: I'm on record as finding depictions of conspicuous consumerism and

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Speaker 2: materialism on film like pretty fascinating. There's a reason I

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Speaker 2: love the work of Sofia Coppola, you know. So I

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Speaker 2: did find those elements of the film really pleasurable and

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Speaker 2: intoxicating in a good way. I think a lot of

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Speaker 2: the problems for me with this film come down to

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Speaker 2: adaptation and having read The Hustlers its scores and having

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Speaker 2: reread it after watching this movie, it became clear to

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Speaker 2: me how the film kind of takes these specific moments

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Speaker 2: in lines. There's so many lines in this movie that

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Speaker 2: come directly from that article, like exact quotes, but I

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Speaker 2: feel like they come as just these super fast blips

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Speaker 2: that almost feel like lip service to the original story,

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Speaker 2: and it doesn't really do the work in connecting a

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Speaker 2: bigger theme or drawing out the criminal plot in a

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Speaker 2: compelling way. It kind of, I think, leans on the

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Speaker 2: work that the article does to draw that out to

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Speaker 2: the extent it does, but I just don't think it

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Speaker 2: does enough to make it compelling enough to stand on

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Speaker 2: its own in that way.

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Speaker 5: I'm really glad you brought up Sofia Coppolo, because I

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Speaker 5: spent a fair amount of hustlers thinking about The Bling Ring,

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Speaker 5: which is conceptually a pretty similar film about crime and

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Speaker 5: specifically ripping off people who have way too much money,

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Speaker 5: and about going all in on famous brands because that's

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Speaker 5: what's there to be stolen, and about like trying to

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Speaker 5: live the lifestyle of the celebrities that you see around you,

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Speaker 5: like sort of reaching for aspirational excess, looking at a

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Speaker 5: lifestyle of excess and thinking of it as normal and

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Speaker 5: achievable and necessary, and anything below that level as somehow

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Speaker 5: like sad and tired and beneath you at an equally

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Speaker 5: hard time relating to the kids in Bling Ring who

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Speaker 5: are breaking into celebrities houses and stealing their designer gear.

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Speaker 5: But I found that movie so much more entertaining in

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Speaker 5: a way, and in part it may just be because

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Speaker 5: there's so much less focus on the victims.

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Speaker 1: I feel like Hustlers pushes.

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Speaker 5: That narrative pretty hard, of like, these people are scumbags

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Speaker 5: and they deserve it. But then at the same time,

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Speaker 5: what we see is a bunch of terrible strip club

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Speaker 5: customers behaving very badly, and those aren't the people that

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Speaker 5: later get ripped off. The people that we keep seeing

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Speaker 5: getting ripped off seem like kind of hapless schmos who

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Speaker 5: get pushed really really hard into taking drugs they don't

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Speaker 5: necessarily want, or just being drugged against their will. And

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Speaker 5: I don't think I like as a woman, I don't

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Speaker 5: think I can be uncomfortable with women being forcibly drugged

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Speaker 5: and then having horrible things done to them and yet

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Speaker 5: be comfortable with it and find a comedic when the

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Speaker 5: same thing is done to a man on screen. I

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Speaker 5: found just the whole the thing that they were going about. Like,

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Speaker 5: if they were choosing their targets based on specific bad behavior,

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Speaker 5: I probably would have been a lot more in on

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Speaker 5: this narrative, but that's not the way the story progresses.

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Speaker 5: The story progresses is these guys over here have maltreated us.

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Speaker 1: In the club.

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Speaker 5: So as a result, we're going to go find this

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Speaker 5: this guy who just seems really excited to have women

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Speaker 5: paying attention to him. We're going to sneak a drug

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Speaker 5: into his drink that might kill, We're gonna steal all

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Speaker 5: his money, and we're gonna go buy a Lubatons. And

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Speaker 5: I just I found it really hard to connect to that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a movie kind of chickens out when

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Speaker 2: it comes to really digging into the cruelty of what

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Speaker 2: they're doing. And as I said before, I think it

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Speaker 2: kind of contextualizes it within this feminist statement or girl

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Speaker 2: power type of you know, motive, but it really comes

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Speaker 2: down to their doing what they're doing because they've dehumanized

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Speaker 2: their marks in the same way that they've been dehumanized

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Speaker 2: by society. And I think that that is an interesting

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Speaker 2: element of this of this hustle of the story that

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Speaker 2: the film doesn't do the work to draw out because

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Speaker 2: I think it's a little too concerned with making us

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Speaker 2: like these characters and not letting them be unlikable enough.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's where the Scorsese comparison falls apart,

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Speaker 2: because Tasha, you're you may disagree here based on what

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Speaker 2: you've said before, but like, I don't think I've ever

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Speaker 2: liked a Scorsacy character, or at least not in his

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Speaker 2: his crime pictures, nor have I felt like I'm supposed

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Speaker 2: to like them in here, especially with the Constance Wu character.

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Speaker 2: I kind of think Constance Wu was maybe miscast here,

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Speaker 2: just because she gives Destiny a sort of good girl

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Speaker 2: who got caught up with in a bad situation, kind

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Speaker 2: of veneer, and that's like not what this character was like.

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Speaker 2: She was shrewd, she was conniving. They were both shrewd

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Speaker 2: and conniving, and I think that there are interesting things

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Speaker 2: to say about that, but this movie doesn't really I

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Speaker 2: feel how the guts to satisfactorily say them.

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Speaker 5: I think it also chickens out a bit on the

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Speaker 5: full on revenge plot. I think that there's a lot

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Speaker 5: of fun in a good revenge plot of you know,

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Speaker 5: these people have abused us, will target them. And the

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Speaker 5: other movie that came to mind watching this was Nine

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Speaker 5: to five, The Old the old comedy way that's specifically

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Speaker 5: predicated on this man has treated us badly, so we're

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Speaker 5: going to do something exceedingly criminal to him. But it's

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Speaker 5: going to be it's gonna be comedic, and it's going

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Speaker 5: to be deserved. And in the end, you see what

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Speaker 5: we've accomplished as a result. You know, we've we've created

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Speaker 5: this sort of strange feminist utopia of an office where

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Speaker 5: everything functions well, where we care about other people, where

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Speaker 5: this isn't it wasn't entirely done for selfish reasons, And

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Speaker 5: that movie is a light fantasy, but it hits on

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Speaker 5: a lot of similar themes in a way that I

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Speaker 5: felt was more approachable, was funnier, and in the end

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Speaker 5: was sort of it was sort of easier to understand

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Speaker 5: why they did what they did for reasons that weren't

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Speaker 5: just greed. Basically, I want to say, like again, in

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Speaker 5: the way we don't question the greed in Scorsese movies.

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Speaker 5: I mean, like, obviously it's demonized and it causes the

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Speaker 5: rise and fall of a lot of characters, but we

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Speaker 5: don't say, like, is it okay for men to be

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Speaker 5: that greedy? We probably shouldn't be focusing on is it

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Speaker 5: okay for women to be this greedy? But I just

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Speaker 5: I found their their venality just kind of gross and

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Speaker 5: off putting.

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Speaker 3: Well, let me ask you this question then, because I

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Speaker 3: think just for clarification's sake, for both of you, it

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Speaker 3: was like, do you think that the one of the

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Speaker 3: big problems with the film then is the film is

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Speaker 3: too aligned with the point of view of its characters,

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Speaker 3: that there's not enough distance between in terms of attitude

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Speaker 3: about the justification, for example, that they have for their actions.

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Speaker 3: The film is too on board with that, and that's

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Speaker 3: kind of a problem with the movie.

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Speaker 4: Is that what I'm getting?

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Speaker 2: Yes, because I mean that's probably speaking I would say that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because that's I think that's kind of the thing here.

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Speaker 3: The key thing to always point out is that, you know,

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, a film can kind of present

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Speaker 3: characters acting in a certain way, but their attitude about

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Speaker 3: it is a separate matter, you know, a separate issue.

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Speaker 3: But if you feel like the rationale is sort of

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Speaker 3: corrupt on both sides, on both with the characters and

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Speaker 3: with the filmmaker. Then obviously that creates a big problem

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Speaker 3: with the movie. Well, I want to talk about the

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Speaker 3: performances in this movie, because Jenef you.

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Speaker 4: Had mentioned it.

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Speaker 3: I have big problems with Constance Wu in this film.

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Speaker 3: You said she was miscast.

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Speaker 4: I agree.

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Speaker 3: I just don't think she's persuasive in the role in

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Speaker 3: the On top of the character itself.

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Speaker 1: I thought's interesting.

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Speaker 5: I didn't have a problem with her character, and I

350
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Speaker 5: didn't have a problem with her character like playing naive

351
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Speaker 5: and turning out to be very shrewd. I saw that

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Speaker 5: as character development over time. I saw her as coming

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Speaker 5: into this environment very naive and in need of protection,

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Speaker 5: and then hardening up over time, which I think is

355
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Speaker 5: another big Scorsese theme in crime pictures is you know,

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Speaker 5: you start at a certain level of crime, but as

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Speaker 5: you get drawn in further and further, you make worse

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Speaker 5: and worse decisions. And I thought the development of her

359
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Speaker 5: character from Nubie to the person like both running the

360
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Speaker 5: con and being exceedingly frustrated with Ramona, for the people

361
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Speaker 5: that she brought into the con, for the people she

362
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Speaker 5: became attached to, I thought that was all pretty interesting.

363
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Speaker 5: I thought her jealousy of other people Ramona was bringing

364
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Speaker 5: in under her wing was maybe the film's most interesting element,

365
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Speaker 5: the fact that it would acknowledge that no matter how

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Speaker 5: successful and established she got, she still looked at other

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Speaker 5: girls in the position she used to be in being

368
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Speaker 5: rescued in any way as like a bad thing that

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Speaker 5: was somehow taking away from her relationship with Ramona.

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Speaker 1: And it's a huge cliche.

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Speaker 5: You know, women can't have friendships without being caddy and

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Speaker 5: jealous is a huge cliche. But I don't know I

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Speaker 5: connected to it. Could I could actually feel the strength

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Speaker 5: of her feeling for Ramona, like her possessiveness, her desire

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Speaker 5: for this mother figure to be her mother figure. And

376
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Speaker 5: I thought it was among the elements that the film emphasizes,

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Speaker 5: it was the one I thought was done best.

378
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Speaker 2: And I think it's maybe the element of the adaptation

379
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Speaker 2: here that I like least, because, as I kind of

380
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Speaker 2: mentioned before, that friendship, that strong bond between Mona and

381
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Speaker 2: Destiny is to a large part of fabrication of the movie.

382
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,280
Speaker 2: In the article, they there's a lot more sort of

383
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Speaker 2: professional tension between them from the get go, and that

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Speaker 2: and that informs the way that their relationship falls apart.

385
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Speaker 2: And I think that's more interesting because it doesn't play

386
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Speaker 2: into these cliches that you mentioned, Tasha, of female friendships

387
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Speaker 2: and you know, substitute mother figures and jealousy. And I

388
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Speaker 2: feel like the relationship between Ramona and Destiny got muddled

389
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Speaker 2: and unsatisfying as the movie progressed in a way that

390
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Speaker 2: it may not have if those characters had been more

391
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Speaker 2: at odds from the beginning and been thrust together into

392
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Speaker 2: this hustle out of necessity rather than some sort of

393
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Speaker 2: familial bond that the movie keeps coming back to.

394
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Speaker 3: Yeah, the film, by and large is less persua as

395
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Speaker 3: a story about friendship that is a story about a scam.

396
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Speaker 3: I haven't looked at the New York magazine piece.

397
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Speaker 4: I thought we should.

398
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,840
Speaker 3: It's right there, available for anyone to see.

399
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Speaker 4: So I didn't really know.

400
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Speaker 2: Really good Julia Styles wrote.

401
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Speaker 3: It, so talented Julia Styles, I did. There was an

402
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Speaker 3: element I don't maybe this is not maybe this was

403
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Speaker 3: also fabricated, but there's an element of the Romanic character

404
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,760
Speaker 3: that I liked, which is that her fatal flaw, it seems,

405
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Speaker 3: and this happens when she brings war members onto the crew,

406
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:35,000
Speaker 3: is just this faith in people like this in sympathy

407
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Speaker 3: for their stories.

408
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:38,159
Speaker 2: That is accurate to the article.

409
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I really like that aspect of it, you know,

410
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Speaker 3: because I think there is a almost a projection on

411
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Speaker 3: Destiny's part that there's something corrupt about Ramona when she

412
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,880
Speaker 3: has a kind of a miserad on Uverermona. It really is,

413
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Speaker 3: and that revealed is pretty strong for me. And I

414
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Speaker 3: just think that performance is outstanding. I think Jeffer Lopez

415
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Speaker 3: is just superb in the film from starting to finish.

416
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Speaker 3: I think that she's such a riveting figure and kind

417
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,359
Speaker 3: of is really what kind of keeps the thing. Her

418
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,400
Speaker 3: charisma kind of keeps the whole thing together.

419
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Speaker 5: Well, so, Scott, it sounds like you're talking about Ramona

420
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Speaker 5: as somebody who thinks trust is really important and is

421
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Speaker 5: this willing to bring toxic people into her life? Wow,

422
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,160
Speaker 5: And it's almost like that's a connection that we could

423
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,480
Speaker 5: bring up between this movie and another movie.

424
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Speaker 3: Well how about this? Why don't we come right back

425
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,639
Speaker 3: after this break to talk about the connections between casino

426
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Speaker 3: and hustlers?

427
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Speaker 4: What about that?

428
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 1: That sounds great? I was a senacle once no way

429
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Speaker 1: ninety three.

430
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Speaker 4: Right, Oh my god.

431
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 1: When Stevie Wonder came in what the Stevie wonder comeingly

432
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:57,360
Speaker 1: go for CAZy Adam in his jampeg room.

433
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Speaker 5: Just where's the gottis in Blood? Wow?

434
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 2: How Kami, you're so good?

435
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 5: I see with every single kind of guy, and I

436
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 5: don't know, it's like you have them all figured out.

437
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 5: I guess I'm just a people person.

438
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 3: So now it's time for connections when we bring these

439
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,400
Speaker 3: two films together and talk about all the things they

440
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,639
Speaker 3: have in common. Tasha, you want to get started.

441
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 5: Well, I just as I was sort of indicating as

442
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 5: we kind of faded out from that last segment. I

443
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 5: think it's really interesting that both of these films have

444
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 5: as kind of a central point as a central plot point,

445
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 5: the fact that a main character believes really deeply in trust,

446
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 5: believes really deeply that, you know, taking people in and

447
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 5: giving them your heart is important. And as a result,

448
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 5: they both embrace toxic junkies who you know, bring terrible

449
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,680
Speaker 5: things into their lives and they refuse to let them

450
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 5: go no matter how those people fail them. In Casino,

451
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 5: it's obviously a trying to sperately to rehabilitate his wife

452
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,879
Speaker 5: Ginger and somehow persuade her to love him, to behave

453
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 5: to treat their daughter well to not stand on the

454
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,679
Speaker 5: front lawn, ripping up the grass and throwing at him

455
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 5: while screaming so all the neighbors can hear. In Hustlers,

456
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 5: it's Ramona taking in more and more strays and bringing

457
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,880
Speaker 5: them in on the scam, regardless of what the rules say,

458
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 5: regardless of what their personal rules say about not accepting addicts,

459
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 5: not accepting untrustworthy people. She keeps bringing in untrustworthy people,

460
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 5: including one who brings the.

461
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 1: Whole scam down. So I just think in both.

462
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 5: Of these films, the idea that trust and love and

463
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:44,639
Speaker 5: emotional openness are seen as kind of useless hubris that

464
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 5: will destroy you is just bitterly.

465
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 1: Cynical and like a really interesting gambit.

466
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, though, I would say, though in Casino, what Ace

467
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 3: is saying at the top is true, and that what's

468
00:24:57,880 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 3: the point if you don't find somebody you can trust

469
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 3: and give the key to your life to the fact

470
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,640
Speaker 3: is that he chooses the wrong person to do that with,

471
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 3: and he's responsible for that choice. I mean, it's not

472
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 3: just he's chosen a bad person in per se, I

473
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 3: don't think that's true. I think he's chosen someone whose

474
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 3: wishes are incompatible to his own for how how she

475
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 3: wants her life to go and how he wants his

476
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,919
Speaker 3: life to go. There diverge in a way that is

477
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 3: terrible for both parties. But you know, I think trust

478
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 3: is important, and you know, and I guess it kind

479
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 3: of pays off a little bit at the end of Hustlers.

480
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 3: It does get a little bit. You know, the end

481
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:38,120
Speaker 3: of Casino is resolutely unsentimental, but that's not really true

482
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,159
Speaker 3: of Hustlers. Hustlers does have that kind of thread of

483
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 3: friendship that kind of warms up the film a little

484
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 3: bit towards.

485
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 5: The end, although they do both have the same ending,

486
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 5: which is somebody like looking back on how great the

487
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 5: scene used to be before other people took over it.

488
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 5: You know, other people who are are crappy and not

489
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 5: up to the same standards and have lowered everything, and like,

490
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 5: wasn't great back in my day, And you defended it

491
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 5: in Casino. I'm wondering if you defend it as strongly

492
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 5: in Hustlers.

493
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 2: I'll defend it. Actually, and this is another point from

494
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 2: the article that the film doesn't really touch on, but

495
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 2: I think is important in the same way. But I

496
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 2: think it's worth noting in connection to Casino is that

497
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 2: the early two thousands was really like a heyday for

498
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:28,160
Speaker 2: strip club culture. It was really part of the mainstream

499
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 2: and there was a fascination about it in pop music.

500
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,959
Speaker 2: We get that with the Usher cameo in Hustlers, you know,

501
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 2: and there was an element of celebrity with strippers that

502
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 2: falls away in a way that the film equates with

503
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 2: the recession, which is accurate, but it also doesn't really,

504
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 2: I think, do enough to highlight the cultural moment behind

505
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 2: that heyday that makes it, to my mind more than

506
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 2: just back in my day nostalgia thing. But that's not

507
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 2: really part of the connection, the trust connection, which I

508
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 2: did want to talk about in the context of a

509
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 2: movie about two movies about hustlers, and I wanted to

510
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 2: sort of take this moment to distinguish between a hustle

511
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 2: and a scam, because I think what we have in

512
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 2: both of these movies are hustles and not scams, because

513
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 2: a scam implies an innocent who is getting screwed over,

514
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 2: whereas a hustle, I feel, is more sort of a

515
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 2: dance between two people who each have their own motives

516
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 2: and both kind of know that they are being taken

517
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,199
Speaker 2: advantage of by the other and it's a battle for

518
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 2: an upper hand, you know, and to come out on top.

519
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,919
Speaker 2: There's a little more culpability on both sides in a

520
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 2: hustle that I think plays into both films fascination with trust,

521
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,640
Speaker 2: because if this words just a movie about scammers screwing

522
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 2: over in a sense for the hell of screwing them over,

523
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 2: then the whole idea of said scammers being kind of

524
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 2: obsessed with finding trust in their life sounds really like cliche.

525
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 2: But I think if you think about hustlers as kind

526
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 2: of in this constant battle dance whatever for an upper

527
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 2: hand in any kind of scenario where money is exchanged,

528
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 2: then the idea of being able to have someone in

529
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 2: your life who is not doing that to you and

530
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:30,199
Speaker 2: who is family in a way is appealing in a

531
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 2: different sort of way.

532
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 3: One thing I would say, though, is that isn't Casino

533
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 3: about a scam that seems like a hustle in the

534
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 3: sense that if you're somebody who goes to Vegas, you

535
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 3: have you're entering into this agreed upon arrangement with the house. However,

536
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 3: you also enter in with the expectation that you could

537
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 3: play and win, and the film's point is that that

538
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 3: is not what Vegas is set up to do. That

539
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 3: Vegas is set up to keep you playing until you

540
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 3: lose all of your money, and that that's the scam

541
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 3: I mean, And the film emphasizes over and over again

542
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 3: that it's like, you know, robbing a bank. It's like

543
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 3: that level of like I'm going to take your money.

544
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 2: I'm thinking a bit more on the individual level of

545
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 2: ginger And and sort of how she and Ace are

546
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,479
Speaker 2: sort of hustling each other into a relationship and in

547
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 2: a certain way. But I take your point about in

548
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 2: the broader scheme of Vegas and casinos.

549
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 3: Well, one of the reasons why I was excited about

550
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 3: this pairing is because I think both films are about capitalism.

551
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 3: Capitalism is a major theme in both movies, and.

552
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 2: The biggest hustle of all capitalism.

553
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 3: Exactly the biggest, the biggest scam, you know, And both

554
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 3: are just really consumed in a great way, I think

555
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 3: with systems that are put in place to rip people off,

556
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 3: and those systems can be large like Las Vegas and

557
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 3: the whole purpose of Las Vegas, and those systems, or

558
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 3: those systems can be kind of small time like we're like,

559
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 3: we're witnessed with the women in Hustlers. But I think

560
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 3: there is a rationale behind them. I mean, the characters

561
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 3: in both films will have that mindset that they're entitled

562
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 3: to rip people off. That's what they're supposed to, that's

563
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 3: what they're that's what they're there for. And what's galling

564
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 3: to them is that they're of a certain class that

565
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 3: isn't acceptable in capitalism, that isn't allowed to be the

566
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 3: people who ultimately make the money. You know, Ace Rosstein

567
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 3: and those the gangsters are not supposed to be the

568
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 3: guys who benefit from the city of Las Vegas that

569
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 3: ends up being corporations.

570
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 4: You know.

571
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,959
Speaker 3: The women in Hustlers are not supposed to benefit from

572
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 3: ripping people off. But they're Wall Street clients do that

573
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 3: for a living, and they're completely respectable. That's their wear

574
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 3: a suit to work every day. No one's arresting them

575
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 3: for the way they go about their business, and so

576
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 3: there's that kind of distance between the two things. So

577
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 3: I think those the films really come at this issue

578
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 3: from a very similar place in my view.

579
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think Hustlers, which again is so much

580
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 2: stronger in the first act, gets at that idea from

581
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 2: another angle really early, when it shows destiny before she's

582
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 2: been taken under Ramona's wing, navigating this new club, and

583
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 2: how much she has to pay out, how much she

584
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 2: has to tip out of what she makes to or not.

585
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 2: It's not really even tipping out. It's more like greasing palms,

586
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 2: you know, to a guy who more or less threatens

587
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 2: her unless you know, she gives him a big chunk

588
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 2: of her earnings. And like that is the context in

589
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 2: which these women hatch and employ this scam within this system,

590
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 2: like even setting aside the Wall Street of it all,

591
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 2: because that's sort of again a big depersonalized system that

592
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:51,479
Speaker 2: they only have brief interactions with. Even just the strip

593
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 2: club ecosystem, economy whatever, regularly screws over its dancers, like

594
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 2: they have to pay to dance there. You know, they

595
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 2: are the main attraction and they have to pay to

596
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 2: be there. And that is not unique to stripping. There's

597
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 2: many other professions that require something similar. And it comes

598
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 2: back to this idea of the compromises you're forced to

599
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 2: make in a capitalist system and how that can skew

600
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 2: your sense of what's acceptable and what's right and what's

601
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 2: wrong and how you and the extent to which you

602
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 2: should go to prioritize yourself and your own worth and

603
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 2: earnings in that system.

604
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 5: And with that in mind, both of these films kind

605
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 5: of dive pretty heavily into the benefits of capitalism being

606
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 5: a things, the things that you get, the things that

607
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 5: are inherently, you know, not necessary to your life. But

608
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 5: Casino has extensive scenes of Sharon Stone rolling around on

609
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 5: her bed with all of the jewelry that her husband's

610
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 5: given her, like a million dollars worth of jewelry, her

611
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 5: taking it out at the bank and putting it on

612
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 5: and showing it to her daughter and saying, look at

613
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 5: all of the things daddy bought me because he loves me.

614
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 5: These physical objects, this pretty garish looking jewelry is all

615
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 5: the sign of her worth and the sign of her future,

616
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 5: you know, which was why she's become so obsessed about

617
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 5: getting her hands on it later, is like it's her

618
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 5: power in the society, it's her independence in the society

619
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 5: is these physical items. And we get the same thing

620
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 5: from the Hustler crew, especially in that Christmas scene where

621
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 5: they're all just like opening these incredibly lavish, unbelievably expensive

622
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 5: gifts and we get another little like, hey, it's a

623
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 5: chinchilla coat in what absolutely a nod to Casino in

624
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 5: both films. But you know, it's all about the objects.

625
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 5: It's all about the power of what you can buy

626
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 5: with the money you scam and however you have to

627
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 5: get there.

628
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 1: You know, in the end, being rich.

629
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 5: Is just about having all of these objects, having any

630
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 5: object you look at and desire the ability to pick

631
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 5: it up. And I think both films dive pretty hard

632
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 5: into the fantasy and how it means power and independence

633
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 5: for the women involved.

634
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very seductive, and I mean I think that

635
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 3: kind of feeds into another connection with both movies, which

636
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,400
Speaker 3: is cinematic brio, which is which is style. And I

637
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 3: think that's so important when you have two films that

638
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 3: are about these criminal operations but also about luxury and

639
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 3: materialism and wealth, that you have filmmakers who have the

640
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 3: talent to be able to fetishize all that stuff and

641
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,879
Speaker 3: make it exciting. And you know, there is a point

642
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 3: there is kind of a degree to which Hustlers is

643
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 3: not quite is like powerful stylistically is a Scorsese film.

644
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 3: It kind of can't be because nobody does Scorsese like Scarsese.

645
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 2: But it also kind of falls away after the recession,

646
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 2: like it gets a little more realist.

647
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 3: I feel, yeah, yeah, because you can't really file you

648
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 3: can't really I.

649
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 2: Mean there's a scene in an old Navy, you know.

650
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, how how can.

651
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,080
Speaker 2: You how much can you bring to the old Navy?

652
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 4: But it's key.

653
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 3: I mean, I think kind of what makes both films

654
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 3: pretty exciting, at least for a time is to have

655
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 3: that excitement. And you know, a lot of people are

656
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,280
Speaker 3: talking about Jennifer Lopez's big strip teas scene to Criminal

657
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 3: by Fila Apple. I mean, that's a pretty cool scene

658
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,879
Speaker 3: in terms of the staging is really exciting. The music

659
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 3: is great, you know, obviously it's a pretty persuasive performance.

660
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 4: I mean, it's it matters.

661
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 3: I mean, the style is such an important part of

662
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 3: these movies, and a lot of what you know, we

663
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,479
Speaker 3: have to know, we have to feel what is giving

664
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 3: these characters pleasure? You know, why they're such an allure

665
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 3: to the crimes they're committing. And both films communicate that

666
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:37,359
Speaker 3: quite well.

667
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 4: I think.

668
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean I'm aware that I have used the

669
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 2: word intoxicating multiple times to describe how both of these

670
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 2: films open and establish their world, and I think that

671
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 2: sense of intoxication is important on a storytelling level because

672
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 2: of the reasons you're kind of talking about Scott and

673
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 2: sort of establishing not quite motive but mindset behind the

674
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 2: actions of the film and how one could get swept

675
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 2: up in this. But I think to like drill down

676
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 2: into specifics in both cases, a lot, a lot, a

677
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 2: lot of it comes down to music. Both of these

678
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 2: films use needle drops, they spare, and they spare nothing

679
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 2: when it comes to the needle drops in both quantity

680
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 2: and quality. Like the music is just a total ride

681
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 2: in both films, and it uses interesting songs in interesting

682
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:30,240
Speaker 2: ways and occasionally very obvious songs and arguably also interesting

683
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 2: or Gimme More Britney Spears Gimme More and Hustlers, which

684
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 2: I actually loved that needle drop when they're in the

685
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 2: escalade and the reveal that they're rocking out inside a

686
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 2: car dealership. I thought that was a fun, little flourish.

687
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 2: And as you talked about in Casinos, sort of the

688
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 2: camera that never stops moving and the interesting kind of

689
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 2: look at me shots and the way that characters are

690
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 2: introduced in way that you can't look away from the

691
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 2: way that we're introduced to Ace being blown up and

692
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,280
Speaker 2: flung through the air, and the way that we're introduced

693
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 2: to Ramona doing this incredible strip tease. Like I mean,

694
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 2: those are indelible introductions, and they serve a purpose in

695
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 2: terms of establishing the rules or the boundaries of this

696
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,359
Speaker 2: world and what is acceptable within that world.

697
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 3: So I think we can agree that these two films

698
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 3: are seductive in their ways, but there's a lot of

699
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 3: differences between how much we.

700
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 2: That's the word I was trying to get at. Thank you, Scott.

701
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 3: Yes, they're intoxicating and seductive either way, but though though

702
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 3: I think we have some disagreements over how seductive and

703
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 3: intoxicating they are. Casino is available on DVD and Blu

704
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 3: Ray and from all the usual streaming services. Hustler's was

705
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 3: a solid hit on opening weekend. It should have some

706
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,879
Speaker 3: staying power at a theater near you. We'll be right

707
00:37:53,920 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 3: back with Your Next Picture Show. Finally, it's time to

708
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 3: catch each other up on films or film related items

709
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 3: we've seen in the interim since our last podcast. We

710
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 3: call it Your Next Picture Show in the hopes that

711
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 3: will put some interesting choices on your radar, Tasha, what

712
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:18,720
Speaker 3: in the film world has been good for you lately?

713
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 5: Well, virtually everything that I've experienced in the film world

714
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 5: lately was at the Toronto International Film Festival, which we're

715
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 5: going to talk about in a little more detail on

716
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 5: a special sidebar between me and Scott over on our

717
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 5: Patreon site. But there's one film that almost inexplicably I

718
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 5: saw and Scott did not see, so we're not going

719
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 5: to discuss it on that that on that special bonus episode,

720
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 5: and that is Takashi Mike's First Love. I find it

721
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 5: surprising that Scott didn't see it because he's more of

722
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,439
Speaker 5: a Mekay fan than I am. I've really only seen

723
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 5: a handful of his films, having avoided him for a

724
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 5: long time, probably because of the trailer for Itchi the Killer,

725
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,879
Speaker 5: which prominently features somebody's nipples being sawt off.

726
00:38:58,040 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 4: What are you going to do?

727
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 5: Well, You're you're gonna not watch that movie and you're

728
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:03,720
Speaker 5: gonna keep your nipples away from Takashi.

729
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: Mika, is what you're gonna do.

730
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 5: I just always had the impression of him as an

731
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 5: ultra of violent kind of a tour and reluctantly dipping

732
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 5: my toes into the world of Audition, one of Scott's

733
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 5: all time favorite films, did not in any way disabuse

734
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 5: me of that notion. I mean, it's a fantastic film.

735
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 5: It's just it's very intense and there's a lot of

736
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 5: disturbing stuff in it. Now, the fact that something like

737
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 5: Happiness of the Categories is so much fun still had

738
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 5: not really convinced me to go all in on Mik

739
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 5: But his movie First Love played a tiff and I

740
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 5: went with that kind of reluctance that one feels when

741
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 5: the same kind of reluctance that I went into The

742
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 5: Nightingale with of people are already loving this. It's probably

743
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 5: gonna be great, but it's also going to be heavy

744
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 5: and violent.

745
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 1: Well it is violent. It's not heavy. It's hilarious.

746
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 5: It's kind of a typical crime movie setup where you

747
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 5: have a young woman who's framed as having stolen a

748
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 5: bunch of drugs running into a young boxer who's down

749
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 5: on his luck and he decides to protect her and

750
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 5: the two of them run away through the night together

751
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 5: having crazy adventures. But it's really much more about all

752
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 5: of the people in the crime world around them. From

753
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 5: a corrupt cop, to a drug dealer and his girlfriend,

754
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 5: to various people in various mob affiliated groups, and it's

755
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 5: just it's really distinctive. It's full of very distinctive, very

756
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 5: colorful characters. Now, we spend a bunch of time on

757
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 5: this podcast talking about movies that immercy in worlds, criminal

758
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,839
Speaker 5: worlds where nobody's really sympathetic and you're not really sure

759
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 5: you want to be there. This movie is all of

760
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 5: those things. But I found it to be a blast.

761
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 5: It's just so lively, it's so kinetic, it's so funny,

762
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 5: it's so self aware about the central character being kind

763
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 5: of a generic Bland ingenue pair and everybody else around

764
00:40:55,400 --> 00:41:00,280
Speaker 5: them being more interesting. And it's spectacularly.

765
00:40:59,040 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 1: Over the top.

766
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 5: And it's also coming out on the twenty seventh from

767
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 5: Wellgo Usa. Wealgo Usa has can be somewhat erratic in

768
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 5: terms of where it gets movies, So I don't know

769
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 5: if it'll be playing in a theater near you unless

770
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 5: you live in a fairly major city, but it's well

771
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 5: worth looking for.

772
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 1: Takashe Meek's first love.

773
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, We'll go USA. I think is a quality distributor.

774
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 3: I mean, they mostly obviously Asian Fair. But yeah, when

775
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 3: I have to catch it, you know, hopefully it comes

776
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 3: through Chicago or I'll see it on DVD, I mean,

777
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 3: or streaming or something like that. I mean, I was,

778
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 3: of course very excited to see it and missed it

779
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,720
Speaker 3: at Tiff simply because of scheduling conflicts.

780
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 4: It was one that I.

781
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 3: Think was scheduled mostly towards the first half of the festival,

782
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 3: and I was having to see a lot of things

783
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:43,879
Speaker 3: for Variety at that time, and I just don't think

784
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 3: I could.

785
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 4: Work out the conflicts.

786
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 1: But humble brag man.

787
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,280
Speaker 4: Not do not. Well, you wouldn't.

788
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 3: It's not humble bragging when you see what I had

789
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 3: to write about for a variety like various Canadian premieres.

790
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 4: But yeah, so it was.

791
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 3: I'm very excited to check it out because I've heard

792
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 3: from you and from our our our friend Mike Dangelo

793
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 3: that is top top shelf, Mika, So really looking forward

794
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:05,279
Speaker 3: to that.

795
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 5: Well what about you, Scott has been good for you lately.

796
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 3: So I want to recommend a film that I don't

797
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 3: fully love and then I know Tasha doesn't like, and

798
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 3: that's the Jim Jarmush's zombie comedy The Dead Don't Die

799
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,320
Speaker 3: is a film that open can to not terribly good notices,

800
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 3: and I will fully admit that it is not one

801
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 3: of jar Mush's better genre riffs like Dead Man or

802
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 3: Ghost Dog the Way of the Samurai. But I want

803
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 3: to see what this film looks. This film is going

804
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 3: to look so interesting ten years from now, twenty years

805
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 3: from now. Is just a comment on the times. I

806
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 3: mean so much in the tradition of George Romero's Living

807
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 3: Dead movies, it is about is reflection of the filmmaker's

808
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 3: attitude about what's happening right now, and that attitude is

809
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 3: so extraordinarily pessimistic. I mean, this is a film in

810
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 3: which the zombie apocalypse is triggered by a man made

811
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:03,919
Speaker 3: ecological disaster and it hastened by the stupid and careless

812
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 3: people who populate our planet. I mean that is that

813
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 3: is at the core of the film, this pessimism that

814
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 3: we that we've brought this on ourselves. We have no

815
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 3: answer to it. We're just going We're just kind of

816
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 3: facing our doom. I mean, you know, Adam Driver is

817
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 3: like a running line where Adam Driver keeps saying, this

818
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:22,919
Speaker 3: is not going to end well.

819
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:24,839
Speaker 4: And I think that is. That's kind of the soul

820
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 4: of the movie.

821
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 3: You know, it's kind of slow getting going, but I

822
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 3: think once the zombies start making their appearance, it kind

823
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 3: of hits a nice groove.

824
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,320
Speaker 4: You get some really nice deadpan.

825
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 3: Action between Bill Murray, Adam Driver and Chloe Sevin ye

826
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 3: As as small town cops, and you know, and there's

827
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,879
Speaker 3: a lot of wonderful little appearances by people like Tilla

828
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 3: Swinton and Tom Waits and Steve Buscemi is sort of

829
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 3: a maga type of farmer. I mean, I just think,

830
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's it's ragged, I get it. But

831
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 3: I think it's got a lot of positive qualities to it.

832
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 3: I think that it has its finger on the pulse

833
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 3: in a way that makes interesting now, but it's going

834
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 3: to make it extremely interesting down the line for hoever

835
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 3: long we as a species survive.

836
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 4: Anyway.

837
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 5: Well, I look forward to revisiting it twenty years from

838
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 5: now on the Next Picture Show podcast and seeing if

839
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 5: it does, in fact feel like a commentary on the times.

840
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 5: I found it just baffling, just like bafflingly bland like,

841
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 5: with a cast that great and a premise as rich

842
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 5: and flexible as the deadpan zombie comedy. Yeah, and then

843
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 5: given some of the specific things that he does with

844
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:31,359
Speaker 5: it that just he seems it seems like he could

845
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 5: have done so much more with some of the more

846
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 5: outray elements of that the film eventually heads into. I

847
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 5: just I walked out of it thinking it feels like

848
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,479
Speaker 5: he thinks he reinvented the zombie movie because he hasn't

849
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 5: seen enough zombie movies.

850
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 3: I wouldn't question his Cetophelia exactly, but I do. It's not, again,

851
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 3: not his biggest lift to date, but I don't know,

852
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 3: it's got a quality. I think it's been kind of

853
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 3: marked as a sort of huge misfire, and I just

854
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 3: think it's got a little little bit more going for it.

855
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 3: So in that sense, I kind of want to recommend it. Genevieve,

856
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 3: how about you.

857
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:07,839
Speaker 2: Well, I feel a little silly framing this is a

858
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,280
Speaker 2: recommendation because it is a film that has been seen

859
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 2: by let me just check the figures. Yes, literally every

860
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 2: person on planet Earth has seen this movie. Yeah, So

861
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 2: I'm bringing it up more as an opportunity to discuss

862
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 2: Avengers Endgame, which is a movie that we, as stated,

863
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 2: have all seen but never discussed on this podcast, despite

864
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:34,879
Speaker 2: having discussed many films within the Marvel Cinematic universe, which

865
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,760
Speaker 2: Endgame is. Task was wrapping up to some extent or another.

866
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 2: And I saw the film in the theaters, but it's

867
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 2: newly available for rental, so I guess maybe that's the

868
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 2: recommendation element of this. You can rent it if you

869
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 2: want to see it again. But recently rented it kind

870
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 2: of with the intention of having it on in the

871
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 2: background while I did other things because most of my

872
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 2: movie watching happens that way these days, because so much

873
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 2: of my viewing time is taken up by televison. But

874
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 2: so I got Endgame thinking I would just like do

875
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 2: other stuff, you know, full launder or whatever while it

876
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 2: was on, and I got sucked right back into it,

877
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 2: all three hours of it again. You know, I was

878
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 2: struck rewatching it, like how wildly this movie is, Like

879
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,839
Speaker 2: it's such a it's more like behemoth than film. But

880
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:24,320
Speaker 2: I was really interested to see how well it managed

881
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 2: all of its moving parts, and did so mostly in

882
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:32,760
Speaker 2: the lead up to this the final forty five minutes,

883
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,839
Speaker 2: which is basically just all battle sequence, which is also

884
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 2: kind of an interesting way the film is divided. But

885
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 2: no one needs my recommendation to see Endgame if they

886
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 2: haven't yet somehow. But like I said, I kind of

887
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 2: wanted to bring it up more as just sort of

888
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 2: an opportunity for if you guys have any thoughts on

889
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 2: it that you wanted to air here on the podcast,

890
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 2: as to sort of maybe close the book on our

891
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:57,919
Speaker 2: time with the Marvel Cinematic Universe here on the show.

892
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 5: I only saw it the once by I recently was

893
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 5: in a theater seeing a movie and there was a

894
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 5: later movie that I wanted to see, and there was

895
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 5: a significant gap in between them, but I wanted to

896
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 5: take the opportunity, having driven all the way downtown to

897
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 5: the theater, to go ahead and see the film with

898
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 5: the one place that was actually playing. So while I

899
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 5: was there, this was after the re release that where

900
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 5: they were touting more new footage at the end, and

901
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,319
Speaker 5: I kind of thought, is that something I'm going to

902
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 5: need to write about? Like, is that something I'm going

903
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 5: to need to report on? So I had it in

904
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 5: mind that I would just sort of duck into the

905
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 5: theater and like watch the final battle sequence again and

906
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 5: see what the end of the new end of the

907
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 5: movie was. And I had miscalculated there was probably about

908
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 5: ninety minutes to go, and it says something that the

909
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 5: movie was deep, deep, deep into its plot still with

910
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 5: ninety minutes to go. But I had the same experience

911
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 5: of just kind of getting sucked in.

912
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:57,359
Speaker 1: I remember, like.

913
00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 5: When I saw it and wrote about it, a lot

914
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 5: of the focus of my review was just if this

915
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:07,320
Speaker 5: wasn't the culmination of a ten year twenty something movie project,

916
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 5: all of the critics would say, well, this is a

917
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 5: disastrous mess. There are too many characters, too many plot lines.

918
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,760
Speaker 5: It's the pacing is really lumpy, it's all over the place.

919
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 5: But it's because it's a payoff. It's a payoff for

920
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 5: so many individual characters. Despite like all of the crazy

921
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 5: heist stuff that goes on and the big action parts

922
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 5: of it is are just kind of a hangout movie

923
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:34,240
Speaker 5: where it's like, oh, let's check in with what's Falcon

924
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 5: up to, how's he feeling about things? Let's just spend

925
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 5: some time with him. Natasha still upset about you know,

926
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 5: all those people dying, and how are you how are

927
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 5: you weathering that? Like the first half of the movie

928
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 5: in particular, so much like an episode of The Leftovers, ye,

929
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 5: and so emotionally satisfying in a way to finally see

930
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 5: people in a superhero movie actually contend with failure, actually

931
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 5: contend with death for more than ten ten seconds at

932
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 5: a time before it turns out that, oh, they were

933
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 5: fine after all. So yeah, there's there's a lot that's

934
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 5: just very strange about that movie because it's such an

935
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 5: experiment and it's so unprecedented in so many ways. But

936
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 5: for me at least, it's still holding up.

937
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 4: Yeah.

938
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 3: I was very surprised by how much I liked it

939
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:23,760
Speaker 3: because I thought Infinity War was just torture.

940
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 4: It really just excruciating to watch.

941
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 3: It was like and it just made me think, like

942
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 3: why is this the thing? Like why are we making

943
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 3: movies this way? It was like a real crisis for

944
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 3: me that movie. So for me to come back, for

945
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:41,400
Speaker 3: me to come back and like Endgame was kind of surprising.

946
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:44,800
Speaker 3: What surprised me, of course, was the amount of feeling

947
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,879
Speaker 3: I found that I did have for these characters over

948
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 3: this time. The weight of this entire interconnected universe was

949
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:56,880
Speaker 3: more significant to me than I had expected, and so

950
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 3: some of those payoffs were effected in ways I did

951
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 3: not anticipate. So bravo to that, I mean There's plenty

952
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 3: of things I could say about the film that are unkind,

953
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,359
Speaker 3: but I think it for what it has to do,

954
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:11,439
Speaker 3: I think it pulls it off.

955
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 4: You know.

956
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,239
Speaker 3: I mean, if you're a person and wholly invested in

957
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 3: the MCU and you've seen eighteen films or how many films,

958
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 3: like a lot of films leading up to this, you know.

959
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 3: I mean, I think the film is satisfying, and that

960
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 3: is a very very hard thing for a movie like

961
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 3: that to pull off, and for the whole enterprise to

962
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 3: pull off too. I mean, there's a lot of moving parts,

963
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 3: and so hat tip to Kevin Fig and to and

964
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 3: to I guess the Russo brothers.

965
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 1: I don't know.

966
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 4: I'm gonna give I'm gonna give Kevin Fig. I guess

967
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:42,920
Speaker 4: I'll give the most credit.

968
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 2: To because he's, Yeah, he's really the creative, driving, driving force,

969
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 2: not the.

970
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 4: Welcome to Moose, welcome to support. I don't know what

971
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 4: they did, go ahead.

972
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's lots to be like. The movie

973
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 2: has flaws, you know, it's it's not a perfect movie

974
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 2: by any means, and there's so much to be cynical

975
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:04,239
Speaker 2: about with the MCU and what this movie represents. But

976
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:06,799
Speaker 2: I think it's hard to deny that this is just

977
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 2: a unique cinematic object, Like there's no other movie that

978
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 2: has had to do what this movie does, and the

979
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 2: fact that it does it as well as it does,

980
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 2: I think is you know, worth celebrating, you know, amid

981
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:27,359
Speaker 2: whatever cynicism you might have about the MCU, you know,

982
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 2: I think it's it's okay to admit that endgame is

983
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:32,760
Speaker 2: actually maybe okay.

984
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, And now we're done with Marvel and so we're

985
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 3: gonna move on.

986
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:38,839
Speaker 2: Never let us never speak of it again.

987
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,520
Speaker 3: And that's it for this edition of The Next Picture Show, Genevieve,

988
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 3: What's coming up next?

989
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 2: Joaquin Phoenix's performance is The Joker is one of the

990
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 2: most talked about of the year, and his movie of

991
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:56,240
Speaker 2: the same name, directed by Todd Phillips, has been trailed

992
00:51:56,239 --> 00:52:00,040
Speaker 2: by anticipation and controversy since it was first announced. It

993
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,360
Speaker 2: As good as Phoenix might be, his work was always

994
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 2: going to be compared to that of Heath Ledger and

995
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 2: Christopher Nolans The Dark Knight, though Phoenix has the lead

996
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 2: role and Ledger has to play foil to Batman. Both

997
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:13,320
Speaker 2: films are using superhero stories to make a disturbing statement

998
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:15,960
Speaker 2: about the times in which we live. For our next pairing,

999
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 2: we'll look at the Dark Knight and Joker and compare

1000
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 2: and contrast their efforts to elevate the comic book blockbuster

1001
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 2: into art.

1002
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:23,920
Speaker 3: In the meantime, we'd love to hear your feedback on

1003
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:26,959
Speaker 3: this week's discussion of Casino Hustlers and anything else film

1004
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,520
Speaker 3: related you'd like to talk about. We want to include

1005
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 3: your thoughts on future episodes of the show. You can

1006
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 3: leave a short voicemail at seven seven three two three

1007
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,720
Speaker 3: four nine seven three zero, or email us at comments

1008
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:40,760
Speaker 3: at next pictureshow dot net. We may post your response

1009
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 3: on Facebook for discussion or read it on a future

1010
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 3: episode of the show. Finally, before closing out this week's episode,

1011
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 3: where can we find everyone these days?

1012
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 2: Genevieve, you can find my work at Vulture dot com,

1013
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 2: where i am the deputy TV editor, and you can

1014
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:57,840
Speaker 2: find me sometimes on Twitter at Genevieve Koski.

1015
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:01,000
Speaker 5: Tasha, you can find my writing and various things that

1016
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:03,359
Speaker 5: I've commissioned from other people over at the Verge dot com,

1017
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 5: where I'm the film and TV editor. I'm on Twitter

1018
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:07,360
Speaker 5: at Tasha Robinson Scott.

1019
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 3: You can find me on Twitter at at Scott Underscore Tobias.

1020
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:11,840
Speaker 3: You can find my work in The New York Times,

1021
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 3: Washington Post, Vulture, NPR, A Variety, and other fine publications.

1022
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:19,360
Speaker 3: I'm also to the editor in chief of a Celloscope's

1023
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 3: a musings blog. Our absent co hosts Keith Phipps. You

1024
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:27,240
Speaker 3: can find him at at k Phipps three thousand on Twitter,

1025
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 3: and you can find his work a lot of the

1026
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 3: same places you can find mine, but other places too, Vulture,

1027
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 3: The Verge, The Ringer Decider, and other fine places too.

1028
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:40,880
Speaker 3: So we'll have Keith back on our next episode.

1029
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:43,680
Speaker 2: He also writes our Patreon newsletter, so you should subscribe

1030
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 2: so you can read that.

1031
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 4: That is a really good point.

1032
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 3: That newsletter is quite substantial, and also we'll kind of

1033
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 3: give you a sense of what, like what kind of

1034
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:54,919
Speaker 3: writing out there has really got us excited. So so

1035
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:57,400
Speaker 3: you get the newsletter, pay a little bit more, you

1036
00:53:57,400 --> 00:53:59,840
Speaker 3: get the newsletter and the bonus episodes.

1037
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:00,919
Speaker 4: It's a pretty good deal.

1038
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 3: You can stay updated on The Next Picture Show by

1039
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 3: visiting Next Picture Show dot Net, via Twitter at next

1040
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 3: Picture Pod and via Facebook at Facebook dot com slash

1041
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 3: Next Picture Show. You can also contribute to our Patreon

1042
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:15,439
Speaker 3: and get bonus content at Patreon dot com slash Next

1043
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:17,879
Speaker 3: Picture Show and if you haven't subscribed to the show

1044
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:21,960
Speaker 3: on Apple Podcasts already, please consider it. Apple Podcasts subscriptions

1045
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:24,400
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1046
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:27,439
Speaker 3: more listeners, and while you're there, we appreciate every rating

1047
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 3: and review. Every thumbs up helps us find new listeners

1048
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:32,960
Speaker 3: and keep the show going. Thanks to Dan the Snake

1049
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 3: Jakes for his assistants producing this podcast, The Next Picture

1050
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 3: Show is proud to be part of the Film Spotting

1051
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 3: family of podcasts. Please tune in next time.