1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called 6 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined, as always with our super producer Paul. 7 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: Mission controlled decands. Most importantly, you are you, You are here, 8 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,239 Speaker 1: and that makes this the stuff they don't want you 9 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: to know. Today, we are diving into a story that 10 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: must begin with a disclaimer. We're going to explore some 11 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: disturbing stories, but there are stories we feel are important, 12 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: even though they may not be appropriate for all listeners 13 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: to a that's just something you should know. At the top, 14 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: we are exploring a very a harrowing tale from what 15 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: is generally called the troubled teen industry. We've discussed this 16 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: in the past, similar to the rehabilitation industry. There are 17 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: bad actors, there is corruption, there are cover ups, and 18 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: there are conspiracies in this world. We are not exploring 19 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:38,839 Speaker 1: today's topic alone, however, we are joined with our good friend, 20 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:44,119 Speaker 1: our colleague, UH, the podcaster, the musician, UH, the creator 21 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: of Camp Hell Uh, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Josh Thane. 22 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: I don't know. I said that like we're in a 23 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: live shame, Josh, and I feel like I should be 24 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: walking out with my coffee mob right now. Why is 25 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: it that breathing into the mic sounds like a crowd twird? 26 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: But yes, Josh, welcome. Full disclosure everyone. I am an 27 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: executive producer who works directly with Josh, and the show 28 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about today is one of the 29 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: ones that we collectively made. But Josh is the creator, producer, host, 30 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: music director, and creator of this show camp hell Anawaki. Josh, 31 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: could you please introduce yourself to everybody here, tell us 32 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: about your background and um just your your history and 33 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: the true crime space. Hello everybody. Uh, my name is 34 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: Josh Dan as they said, and I work in production, 35 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: so I've been working in that and making some true 36 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: crime podcasts for the past few years now. And I 37 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: also do music. I play in a band, Migrant Worker, 38 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: shamelessly promoting right now. And yeah, Matt's been Matt year 39 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: to thank for me following this rabbit hole of the 40 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 1: story of Anuwaki. Honestly, and I'm really glad you did 41 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: because it's been a wild ride. It's been a long 42 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 1: time coming. This is uh, this podcast, which is available now, 43 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: is something that you have been working on for for 44 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,119 Speaker 1: quite a while, Josh. From the initial story and it's 45 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: one of those it's one of those stories that that 46 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: I think it is personally fascinating because at times it 47 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: was almost like a regional piece of folklore, even though 48 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: it was true. The events discussed uh did occur are real. Uh. 49 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: Many many people, even in our home state of Georgia, 50 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: were absolutely unaware of the Aniwaki Treatment Center for emotionally 51 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: disturbed youth. Could you tell us a little bit about 52 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: what this institution was and how you personally learned about 53 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: it even before before you thought of pursuing this as 54 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: a show. Sure, yeah, I had, like many people, never 55 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: heard of it before at all till about two years ago. 56 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: I guess it was July of two nineteen, and we 57 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: talked about this in the episode. But the cliffs Notes 58 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 1: was basically I was driving road trip in Florida with 59 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: my wife and her friend and she knew I'd been 60 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: working in the true crime field and said, Josh, you 61 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 1: need to do a podcast on an AWAKEI and you 62 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: know what the heck is that I've never heard that 63 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: word before. And basically all she knew was that some 64 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: abuse had gone on at this school for boys in Georgia, 65 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: and the way that she had found out about it 66 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: was through a family friend of hers who had adopted 67 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 1: a donkey from the school, which is a notorious tale 68 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: at this point now, but the donkey basically had been abused. 69 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 1: They claimed the donkey been abused has kind of offset 70 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 1: a aggression from what these kids had been through. So 71 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: I came back and started looking into it, just curious, 72 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: and it was odd how little Internet presence there was. 73 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: And the Wikipedia has changed quite a bit since then, 74 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: but at the time it was like two paragraphs for 75 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: this school that was like a fifty million dollar settlement, 76 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 1: and you know, all of these charges brought um, but 77 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 1: nothing really online until you start coming through newspapers and 78 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: that sort of thing, and then it was like the floodgates, 79 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: like how have I not heard of this? And then 80 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 1: you start asking around and my parents were like, yeah, 81 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: of course that broke when you were just being born, 82 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: so of course that hit home. And I think, like 83 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 1: you said, it was almost like a folklore. And the 84 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: more and more I looked into this, the more I 85 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: found out I had these weird connections to this place, 86 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 1: not personally, but for instance, my wife's sister worked at 87 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: a school that sounded similar, and we eventually put it together. 88 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: Oh my god, you were working at the place that 89 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 1: used to be an Awake and that was just chance. 90 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: After working on it for like six months or something. Wow. 91 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,799 Speaker 1: And then relatives of my wife's live out there, and they, oh, yeah, 92 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: well we know stories about this guy and the sheriff 93 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: and the you know, all these connections that happened out there. 94 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: So it really was a rabbit hole that just kept 95 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: going the more you pulled that thread. So let's let's 96 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: define what this anawaky word this place? What is it? 97 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 1: So the Anawakey Treatment Center for emotionally disturbed Boys as 98 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: the original title, and it's hard to say a little 99 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: bit because it was a little amorphous. They would shift 100 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: how it was presented through over the years, over like 101 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 1: about little less than three decades um to what worked 102 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,040 Speaker 1: best for them. So at one point in time it 103 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: was called a hospital, at another point it was a school. 104 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: It started out as a foundation with community outreach and 105 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: people donating money to it, But basically it was a 106 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: wilderness therapy program for emotionally disturbed kids, and it was 107 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: just vague enough to where they could work government agencies, 108 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: legal systems, insurance to whatever would benefit them in the 109 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: best way, and what was the ballpark age range of 110 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: the of the children involved here. It could start pretty young. 111 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: I've talked to people who were sent there when they 112 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: were nine to age eleven, which is insane when you 113 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: think about the work some of the forced labor these 114 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: kids were being forced to do. And it was a 115 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: type of kind of hierarchy system where people would work 116 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: through it and would then be promoted to a group 117 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: lead there and then a counselor so. The further it went, 118 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: the further you could go in the program, and a 119 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: lot of time, unfortunately that was tied to different types 120 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: of sexual abuse that we're going on within it. And 121 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: for a lot of folks in the crowd today, when 122 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: you hear the phrase wilderness therapy, you you might associate 123 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: it with like boy scouts or camping, you know what 124 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: I mean, or having a troubled teens just sort of 125 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: stroll around and lollygag in the woods. That's very much 126 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 1: not the case we we know that wilderness therapy in 127 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: the most dry terms, it is behavior modification officially based 128 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: on group activities, you know. Like you said, Josh, there's 129 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: there's people progress through these leadership roles and you're supposed 130 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: to become more acclimated to working with other people, and 131 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: your is supposed to help address maybe some of the 132 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: emotional issues people have had. But this, although this treatment 133 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: can be controversial at times, I believe there are examples 134 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,839 Speaker 1: of wilderness therapy in the modern day. Isn't that correct? Absolutely? Yeah, 135 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 1: And that's something I had been aware of. I had 136 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: known friends growing up who had done programs like Knowles 137 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 1: is a very popular one, you know, And I think 138 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: there's a span where it can be you're literally just 139 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: dropped in the wilderness with a knife and some other 140 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: few things and and figured out too these more type 141 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: camp settings where you have leaders teaching you how to 142 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: make things and work in the wilderness and the elements. 143 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: And I think that that has proven to be very 144 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: successful when done correctly with kids. You know, there's a 145 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: lot of great programs out there. I'm gonna be hopefully 146 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: speaking with a really great one out of Florida that 147 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:56,079 Speaker 1: my friend had been involved with two, you know, kind 148 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: of show the other side of this can actually work. Well. Yeah, 149 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: So I want to give just a quick modern example 150 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: of wilderness therapy, and then I want to talk about 151 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,319 Speaker 1: why this would be needed or why wilderness therapy exists. Right, 152 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: what's being treated here? And you mentioned something called emotional 153 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: behavior disorder, emotional and behavioral disorder, so we'll talk about that. 154 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: But first of all, this wilderness therapy it's called First 155 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: Light Wilderness Therapy, and just I'm gonna read you a 156 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: description from their website. It says that it's a full 157 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: immersion therapy experience and away from the distractions of everyday 158 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: life such as screen time and peers, students have the 159 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: opportunity to benefit from round the clock therapeutic support. So 160 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: there's there's a therapeutic support component to this, right. There 161 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 1: are others that are going to be assisting in some 162 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: kind of therapeutic fashion, but the wilderness, it says. The 163 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: wilderness environment allows students to focus on regulation through a 164 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: tunement with the rhythms of nature, which is really interesting. 165 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: Says students sleep in a vidual tense and follow a 166 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: nomadic model of movement, setting up camp in a new 167 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:08,199 Speaker 1: area once or twice each week. So that's a slightly 168 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: modified version of what ann awake he was. But it 169 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 1: just gives you an idea of what this is supposed 170 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: to do, and it says it's for children between the 171 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: ages of twelve and eighteen. So my question is, do you, Josh, 172 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: what what is e b D or emotional behavioral disorder 173 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: and what is it? Like? What what does that even mean? 174 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: Emotional behavioral disorder is? And this this was a very 175 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: hard thing to define too, because these terms change from 176 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: legal system to the medical system, the judicial system. But basically, 177 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: when how it was described to me was when you 178 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,959 Speaker 1: look at certain type of behaviors like say a two 179 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: year old during a tantrum and things of that nature 180 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,679 Speaker 1: for that age, that makes sense and that's to be expected. 181 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: But when these type of behaviors continue on past this 182 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: into other ages, then you start having an issue and 183 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: kids that have trouble expressing themselves can't deal with emotions correctly. Um, 184 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: that's kind of I guess the broadest type definition of that, 185 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: and it's it's highly likely that given the given the 186 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: time span during which the treatments that are operated, there 187 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 1: were there were there were doubtlessly attendees that were misdiagnosed. 188 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: This sort of this, this sort of label can be 189 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: applied in a somewhat a morphous way in this This 190 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:45,719 Speaker 1: leads us to the next question, Josh, any wiki I 191 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: think will surprise people. It's quite old, right, could you 192 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: could you tell us a little bit about how it 193 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 1: came to be UH and where it's located. Yeah, it 194 00:12:56,120 --> 00:13:00,040 Speaker 1: actually went on for a surprising number of years. It 195 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: was UH started sometime around nineteen sixty two in Douglasville, Georgia, 196 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: UH and continued through probably close to before it was 197 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: officially shut down, and how it was known, and it 198 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: expanded through those years. They went on to have three 199 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: different campuses, one in Florida, another one for girls in 200 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: Rock Mart, Georgia. And by all means, I mean it 201 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: seems like they were ready to expand this even further. 202 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: There was talk of them starting a branch in Mexico. 203 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 1: They had bought land in Canada. I mean, it was 204 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: this thing was only growing um until somebody finally put 205 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 1: a stop to it. Something occurs to me. We recently 206 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: did an episode about what I would see as similar 207 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: organizations or institutions that parents essentially pay. Um, these I 208 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: guess I don't organizations to kidnap their kids, to come 209 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: in the dead of night, take their kids and put 210 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 1: them into these kind of reform school type sidar areos. 211 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 1: Uh in all of these situations are rife for abuse. 212 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: There's just so much lack of oversight. The parents are 213 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: putting all of this trust in these groups, and there 214 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: is not a lot of licensing oversight, not a lot 215 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: of requirements even to start one of these in a 216 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: similar way to some rehab facilities or some like d 217 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: Y schools for example, that are subsidized by you know, 218 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: the government that people have to use them. Um, I'm 219 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: wondering if this forced labor situation with an awaki is 220 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 1: in any way similar or if there's a distinction between 221 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: these two types of sort of reforced reform schools for 222 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: for kids. Yeah, And we try and follow this through 223 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: the podcast where it evolved or devolved if you will, 224 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: over the years, where you know, initially as we were 225 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: talking about emotionally disturbed behavior. Um, you know this clear 226 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: definition of this, but it would come to be just 227 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: kids who had a d D as SIMP. Is that 228 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: or you know, we're depressed things like that, where this 229 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: is not necessarily the place to handle those types of things. 230 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: So it did becomes just a place where a lot 231 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: of times parents with money or good insurance could send 232 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: their kids there, and they stood to make a lot 233 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: of money doing that. And I think there's a span 234 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: in these wilderness therapy camps where yeah, like you said, 235 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: it can be coming into your house in the middle 236 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: of the night and grabbing your kids for you and 237 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: sending them off to somebody voluntarily going or being sent 238 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: there by court order as a ward of the state, 239 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: and as an awaki evolved over the years, it could 240 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: shift to any one of those things within that spectrum, 241 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: to whatever benefited them the best. It's interesting because you're 242 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: you know, you've mentioned that this organization was somewhat of 243 00:15:55,640 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: a chameleon, right in terms of self serving is self 244 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: serving actions at this point there are there are two 245 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: things that we we have to address. These are covered 246 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: in depth in in campell Uh Josh Astute. Listeners of 247 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: the show today will will notice that you said there 248 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: were kids who might have a d h D. There 249 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: are kids who might have just been going through a 250 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: very difficult emotional time, right, It's it's normal to be 251 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: depressed at times. There were also children who had UM 252 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: had bounced out of other programs. If if I'm correct 253 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: here and one of the things that love for you 254 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: to give our audience a sense of here is what 255 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: actually happened to these kids. We've talked about the Wilderness Therapy, right, 256 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: We've talked about the stated aims of this and similar 257 00:16:55,440 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: other organizations. But what what actually happened to these children? 258 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: What made this difference from something else in the troubled 259 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: team industry. Yeah, and again, like everything, there's not one 260 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: simple answer for that. There was a spectrum of experiences 261 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 1: and we tried to cover that in the podcast to 262 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 1: some people left and say that was the best thing 263 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:22,679 Speaker 1: that ever happened to me. It made me who I 264 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 1: am today. It taught me how to work and taught 265 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:28,120 Speaker 1: me responsibility. But in all honestly, what was going on 266 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: was forced labor by the kids. They were put through 267 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 1: this backbreaking labor, many of them having lifelong medical issues 268 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: from it. UM basically building the camp, building the campus 269 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: there they were being they were paying to go to UM. 270 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: All three of those campuses were built. There was a 271 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: marina and hotel for profit built in Florida by the kids. Um, 272 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: just things of this nature. They were getting free labor, 273 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: didn't they like build a lake? Yeah, they dug out 274 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 1: Anawaky Lake, which is still in Douglasville on the map. 275 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 1: If you look at a map, you would think in 276 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: Awaky is a town, and for all intensive purposes, it was, 277 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 1: and an Awaki Lake is still there, right. You take 278 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 1: Anawaki road to get there. And it is interesting the 279 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,360 Speaker 1: varying perspectives that folks that you know went through this 280 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: program in varying times because they were all given numbers, 281 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 1: so you can kind of track like how long this 282 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: program ran based on, you know, the size of the 283 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: number given to a particular you know, patient. I think 284 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 1: it's interesting that it's called patients since there's really no 285 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 1: medical expertise involved here at all. The guy in charge 286 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 1: of it goes by doctor, but he has no no 287 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: degree in medicine at all. It's sort of like a 288 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,679 Speaker 1: self proclaimed title, which is always very suspicious to me, 289 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: very self aggrandizing to refer to yourself in that way. 290 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: And he did seem to have this kind of like 291 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: God complex. But one of the gentlemen you speak to 292 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,360 Speaker 1: in the first episode speaks very fondly of this guy 293 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,719 Speaker 1: and speaks very fondly of his experience. He taught him 294 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: how to work with his hands, taught him how to 295 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,640 Speaker 1: use tools, UM, and he had a hard time believing 296 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: some of the allegations. UM. I just I think that 297 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: was really smart and interesting that you lead with that. Uh. 298 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: And then obviously you see the diverging opinions and how 299 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: you know what is the real story? Right, And that's 300 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 1: continue to happen since it's come out, and I've had 301 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 1: many survivors reach out, UM from the gamut of thank 302 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,479 Speaker 1: you so much. You know that I've went into therapy 303 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: for the first time, or explain to my parents what 304 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: I went through for the first time in thirty years, 305 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 1: to people that had a great experience and are like, 306 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 1: why aren't you talking about all the great things? So 307 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 1: that's why I thought, you know, let's start out, this 308 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: wasn't all bad for everybody. And part of that has 309 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: to do with the selection of kids that did go 310 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 1: through some of this abuse, and also that was a 311 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:59,400 Speaker 1: patient or survivor they choose to go by UM who 312 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: attended in some of the earliest years. He was there 313 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty two or sixty three. So this program 314 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: devolved and that it got a lot worse over the years. 315 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 1: So so who was this doctor that Nola's mentioned the Yeah, 316 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: Lewis Jerome Doc Petter. He um went way further back 317 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 1: in Georgia history than I realized. I found out that 318 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 1: he had been in the papers since the nineteen forties. 319 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 1: But he started in Awake with him and his wife Mabel, 320 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 1: and another guy named Brett Baxley, who's kind of a 321 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:37,640 Speaker 1: mysterious figure. Um. But Doc Petter has had a history 322 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: of working in government agencies, working in the Fulton County 323 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 1: court system as a probation officer and court psychologist, working 324 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: in Savannah with de Facts, Department of Family and Children's Services, 325 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: and just a charismatic character that was great at uh 326 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 1: community outreach and getting uns for people to help troubled kids. 327 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 1: And so I found out through going through his background, 328 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 1: you see this progression from boy scout leader to you know, 329 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: church pastor too. He's there's this article in the Atlanta 330 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: paper I couldn't believe from the fifties where it's, you know, 331 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: the Key Club of Atlanta raises money to help troubled youth. 332 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 1: And even back then He's having this community raise funds 333 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 1: for this troubled kid, and it was like a lot 334 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 1: of money, like every member giving a hundred dollars a month. 335 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: When you think that, add that up in the nineteen fifties, 336 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 1: like a hundred and fifty people or something like that, 337 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: and then like three years later, it's like kid turned 338 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: his life around success thanks to Lewis Petter and this organization. 339 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: So it just continued from there and he was able 340 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: to keep doing community outreaching, getting funds to where he 341 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: bought this land to create anawaki. Do you believe that 342 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:02,439 Speaker 1: it would be fair to see after Petter is a 343 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: predator or was a predator at the time, without a doubt. Absolutely. 344 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: I've heard many personal testimonies from people. This guy created 345 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: this whole atmosphere. It wasn't just him abusing and praying 346 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: on these kids. He taught it to other people. He 347 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: encouraged it to go on at the camp, to the 348 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:30,919 Speaker 1: point of having his own group of inner circle they 349 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: called it, of boys who rotated over decades, and they 350 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: would live in his house with him and his family 351 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 1: is going on right under their nose. Um. So yeah, 352 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: he was about about as evils you could get in 353 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: my mind. How did the story start to get out? 354 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: Was it just a couple of patients that started telling, 355 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: you know, an authority figure, telling a parent or something. 356 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 1: How How did people find out about it? The most 357 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,360 Speaker 1: surprising thing when I first looked into this was that 358 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: jumped out to me was in nineteen seventy there was 359 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: a hearing for abuse going on at the camp. Uh. 360 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 1: It wasn't a criminal investigation at all. It was a 361 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: hearing regarding their license as a UM. I'm trying to 362 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: remember how they were described at the time because it 363 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 1: changed so many times of the years. Has a childcaring institution? 364 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: It had simply had to do with their license and 365 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: has the head of it if Louis Petter was fit 366 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: to head a childcaring institution. So back at this point 367 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: you have people giving first hand testimony of sexual abuse 368 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: by this guy, recorded in court transcript in the public accounts, 369 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: and nothing happened. In short, the place continued on. UM 370 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: they were granted their license. There was a disclaimer that 371 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: that Lewis Petter could not interact with the boys. What 372 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: that basically alluded down to from then on was he 373 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 1: couldn't go into their sleeping quarters. But still had his 374 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: office on campus, was still there, was still interacting with him, 375 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: taking them on trips, still having them stay in his house. 376 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:16,679 Speaker 1: And Uh, the same organization that oversaw that hearing um 377 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: turned out to have a lot of connections with Lewis Petter. 378 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: I can't say the organization. I'd say the person who 379 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,919 Speaker 1: was in charge of the organization turned out to have 380 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: a very close tied Lewis Petter, which which led to 381 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: nothing happening. For it went on for another twenty five years. 382 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 1: And I believe that initial investigation in the seventies, Josh, 383 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: it wasn't made public, was it. No, not at all. 384 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: It was very kept under wraps. H We actually have 385 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: a story with the one of the whistleblowers, Robert Agastino, 386 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 1: who was great Um. He was threatened he was about 387 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 1: to take the he had just taken the bar at 388 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: that point, young attorney, and somebody tipped him off and said, hey, 389 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: they're going they're about to seal this document. You need 390 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: to get down here and get a copy of this 391 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: court transcript and that will give you leverage because they're 392 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: going to go after you and make sure you don't 393 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: pass the bar. You can't practice as an attorney, and 394 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: that's what he did, and he held onto this transcripts 395 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,719 Speaker 1: all those years and provided him to me thankfully. Who 396 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: who was going to go after him? Uh Anawaki in 397 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: some way? I mean they were going to try and 398 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: stop him from being able to be a practicing attorney. 399 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 1: So that was his his kind of saving grace. So 400 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 1: hold on that court transcript, which he did. And will 401 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: pause for a word from our sponsor before returney with 402 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: Josh Thane and camp Hell and awake. And we're back, 403 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:57,120 Speaker 1: and now we're starting to unravel some of the timeline here. 404 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: Uh for context, folks. Uh, this is a profoundly disturbing 405 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 1: example of something that happens more often than you might think. 406 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: You know, you'll you'll hear news about a scandal that 407 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: rocks a boy Scout troupe or something like that. And uh, 408 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: we've got a lot of former Scouts in the audience today. 409 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 1: I myself in an Eagle Scout. There's Matt right there. Uh. 410 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: You know it's cool to be in wilderness to build bridges. 411 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 1: I am going to say that making a fire from 412 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: the like ordinary means with the stick and the and 413 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: the rubby thing that stinks just bring a lighter. That's 414 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 1: not worth it. But also digging an entire lake is 415 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: probably not right. That's true. And also fun fact, a 416 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: lot of people don't know this. Georgia has no natural lakes. 417 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: Every lake in Georgia has been man made. But the 418 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 1: reason bringing this up is that we see in tragic 419 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: tales such as this, we see some common tropes and 420 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: they should trouble you, folks. One of the common tropes 421 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 1: that Josh you just hit upon is that people knew 422 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: someone knew, and uh, whether it's through incompetence or self 423 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:24,119 Speaker 1: interest or just plain old bribery, they let this stuff continue, 424 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: or they perhaps deluded themselves into saying, well, who who 425 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: can trust these kids? Right? Who knows they may be 426 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 1: making something up? Etcetera, etcetera. But as you and Matt 427 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,880 Speaker 1: pointed out again, that's what kills me about this. This 428 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: was in the news, and I don't know how I 429 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: think it wasn't quite public knowledge yet, right, That's that's 430 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 1: maybe a we have to fast forward a decade to 431 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 1: the eighties. Okay, how how did this breakout? What happened? Well, 432 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,640 Speaker 1: so this goes on the hearing happens and for another 433 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,199 Speaker 1: twenty five years, the program gets worse, more kids are 434 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: subjected this abuse. It just spreads, and sometime around the 435 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: mid eighties, the organization starts to crumble a little bit. Um. 436 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 1: People are finding out these uh awful events are happening 437 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 1: around it. One kid committed suicide and jumped off a 438 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: roof there. Another one escaped and stole a gun from 439 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: I forget how he got the gun, but he ended 440 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: up murdering somebody who was staying there. So like, these 441 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: things start happening and start growing more at tension to 442 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: it um, the behaviors getting more outlandish. They're caring less 443 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: and less of the fact that they might get caught, 444 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: and eventually it breaks in the mid eighties. And then 445 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: once that happened, somebody broke the story. Actually I think 446 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: it was Albert Edge and the journalists we speak to 447 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 1: in the podcast, who was extremely helpful um that this 448 00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: hearing had happened in the nineteen seventies and it went 449 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: onist so really that did not even come to light 450 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: until the whole thing had been broken open by the 451 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 1: mid eighties. Wow, I wanna um jump off something you 452 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: said been which I think this is really important for 453 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: this story and probably for right, Yeah, definitely for right 454 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: now in the modern era, the stigma that comes with 455 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: being diagnosed with something at least in Georgia that would 456 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: be described as emotional and behavior disorder or even a 457 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: d D, or a troubled kid or a an adolescent 458 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: that UM is for some reason or another, not performing 459 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: the way the way that society would wish they would UM, 460 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: or you know, a parent or a teacher or anyone 461 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: really UM. There's a stigma that comes with that that 462 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: no matter how trustworthy or not that child is, the 463 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: statement maybe of that child is going to be if 464 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 1: it's weighed against a doctor or the leader of a program, 465 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 1: or you know, an adult, it's not gonna hold as 466 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 1: much weight, which is which is a real issue. I 467 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: think it must have been tough going up against essentially 468 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: institutions and government structures like that to advocate for these 469 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: kids who who were in real trouble when they were anawaki. 470 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: You said that there was Agastino as a whistleblower. There's 471 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: some journalists you talked to. Can you tell us more 472 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: about that journalists and maybe the journey that that journalists 473 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 1: took to uncover some of this, right? Yeah, I didn't 474 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: realize how big a part of his journey it was 475 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: until I spoke with him. Albert Edgin was a reporter 476 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: in Tallahassee for the Tallahassee Democrat UH in the early eighties, 477 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: and they had been tipped off to the story that 478 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: there were some accusations at Anawaki's second campus in Carribelle, Florida, 479 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: near Tallahassee, and he covered the story for like six years, 480 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: ultimately leading to Sixty Minutes doing a story on it, 481 00:30:55,760 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: and they recruited him to help coach UH. The anchor 482 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: who interviewed UH Jim parm one of the Petter's confidants 483 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: who had covered for them for many years, and that 484 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: led to him working with Sixty Minutes for another many years. 485 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: So Anna Wake he really kind of brought him into 486 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: the mainstream in his journalism career. And Uh. We flew 487 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: up to Virginia to Albert's home right at the start 488 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: of quarantine. Actually it was the weekend before arte lockdown started. 489 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: So I remember at the time it was like, are 490 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: we gonna do this? Are we gonna get on this 491 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: flight and go bring this suitcase of documents back with 492 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: us or not? And we did, thankfully, and Um, I'm 493 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: sitting here in my room covered in foul folders and documents. 494 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: I mean, he had kept everything from his research and uh, 495 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: I think at the time he probably wasn't even able 496 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 1: to cover as much of that, which is why um 497 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: it's uh been done so well, too covered in the 498 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 1: podcast form, because there's just so many tentacles to this thing. 499 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: And we do want to point out that we we've 500 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 1: talked extensively off air in the past about how best 501 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: to address subjects that, you know, many people would rather 502 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: not hear about, you know, especially if they've survived trauma 503 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: of their own. But we we feel that this information 504 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: is both important and empowering. And I think one of 505 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: the most profound things to me about your work on 506 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: Camp Hell is the first, I would say, the the 507 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: empathy with which people involved are treated, and secondly, the 508 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: way this story very unfortunately moves through time. When when 509 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: you had that moment, Josh, when you kind of could 510 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 1: see the forest of the problems of Anne and waking 511 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: and could see the time tim line. Uh, where did 512 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: you you know, as Noel said, you start with something 513 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: that is not immediately you know, super heavy, right, Um, 514 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 1: and you want to illustrate that not everybody had the 515 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: same experience. But where do you see the story going? 516 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 1: You know, as now that you know what you know, 517 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 1: and now that you have this research, you have this documentation. Yeah, 518 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: I think a lot of what I was asked by 519 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 1: people who may have been involved who didn't want to 520 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 1: speak with me, is why are you telling this story now? 521 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: Why are you digging this up? And the answer is 522 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: so that it doesn't happen again, because this type of 523 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: thing still happens. These organizations are still out there. In fact, 524 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: there's a whole industry, I would say, of emotional growth 525 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: schools as they're called and wilderness therapy schools, and not 526 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: all of them are doing good, and some these types 527 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: of things still happen, and there's not really any huge oversight. Um. 528 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: I've heard recently of a bill trying to be passed. 529 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 1: I think Paris Hilton may have been involved with it 530 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,799 Speaker 1: because she was sent to a school similar to this. 531 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: She has a documentary out recently about it. It is right, Yeah, um, 532 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 1: I was surprised to that that happened just by chance 533 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 1: around the same time of this. But basically a bill 534 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 1: to give national oversight to organizations like this, and there's 535 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,319 Speaker 1: not one. And in my research going through this, you 536 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 1: see how easy it was for this type of behavior 537 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: to keep going on. They were just so tied into 538 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: the system. It was too big. It was described by 539 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: a few people as the state of Georgia needed this 540 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:52,319 Speaker 1: program more than to break it up because of a 541 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:56,240 Speaker 1: few bad apples. And and hopefully parents think twice about 542 00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:00,759 Speaker 1: this or look into it. If you're being told that 543 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 1: you can't have contact with your child, that we're going 544 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: to screen any contact that's like red flag immediately right there. Um, 545 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: things of that nature. So why do we cover these 546 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: stories like this so it doesn't happen again? Basically we 547 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: do this all the time on the show. A little 548 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 1: bit of a caveat just I want to make sure 549 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: that everyone listening knows there are thousands of individuals and 550 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: probably dozens, if not hundreds of organizations out there right 551 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: now doing their level best to help kids who are 552 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: you know, in some way having trouble right um. And 553 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 1: wilderness therapy, as my wife can attest, wilderness therapy can 554 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:45,280 Speaker 1: be hugely beneficial for for a child who's just having 555 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,720 Speaker 1: trouble dealing with the way society wants them to behave. 556 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean this is happening everywhere. It does mean 557 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,880 Speaker 1: that that the bad things are happening and peppered throughout 558 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 1: the systems. Um. And I think that is why your 559 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,879 Speaker 1: work is so important here, Josh. Thanks No, I think 560 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: you're right, Matt. And as I said, you know, I 561 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 1: hope to by the time this project that's done, to 562 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 1: show some examples of how some good programs like that, like, 563 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,440 Speaker 1: they aren't all like this, this can work. This idea 564 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 1: is actually a good one. It was just abused in 565 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 1: the worst possible way. Yeah, by opportunists and predators. Yeah, 566 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:27,240 Speaker 1: you know. Your reason an incredibly poignant and powerful points, 567 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: and it's one we need to emphasize. We talked about 568 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 1: this in our exploration of big rehab and the so 569 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: called sober living homes. Again, like Matt said, like you said, Josh, 570 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: there are many people who are doing their level best, 571 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 1: not for money, not for power or fame. They genuinely 572 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: want to help people. This is not a story about 573 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:54,160 Speaker 1: those actors. Um. This is the point you hit one 574 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: we always need to emphasize. There is no federal oversight. 575 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,319 Speaker 1: The laws are state by state, meaning that in the 576 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 1: right state, we could all get together, buy some land somewhere, 577 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,839 Speaker 1: call ourselves doctors. I love it when people do that, 578 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:15,760 Speaker 1: you know, like whenever you it happens in uh, happens 579 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 1: in other institutions as well. You know, there are a 580 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,760 Speaker 1: lot of people who just decide to call themselves bishops. 581 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 1: That's all I'm saying. I know I've got something in 582 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 1: my car that says I can or I'm ordained in 583 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,399 Speaker 1: some way because I paid some money. Oh yeah, yeah, 584 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,759 Speaker 1: are you Are you ministers? That's right. We don't talk 585 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 1: about on air too much, but Matt and I are 586 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 1: both technically ministers Universal Life Church. Maybe is that what 587 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:45,320 Speaker 1: it's called? How could you forget one of my favorites, 588 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 1: Robert Anton Wilson, you are now a pope? Yeah? And 589 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 1: also we can you know, just to be clear, folks, Uh, 590 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 1: we can marry you, but we cannot divorce you. It 591 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 1: turns out you do have to have some more qualifications 592 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: to divorce people. But it's the paperwork really, But why 593 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 1: is this important? Why is it crucial that there be 594 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:12,799 Speaker 1: some sort of oversight? Josh from the story of Camp Hell, 595 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: which is ongoing and Matt, Noel and I have listened 596 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:20,879 Speaker 1: to it, it becomes quickly obvious that there were secrets, right, 597 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: there were conspiracies and cover ups, and there was doubtlessly 598 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:31,799 Speaker 1: corruption afoot. When you say that we're you know, we're 599 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:36,799 Speaker 1: exploring this show together to prevent something like this from 600 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 1: happening in the future. Has anyone reached out to you 601 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 1: with similar experiences or what? What? What are some of 602 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 1: the reactions you've received because you said someone was just 603 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 1: texting you earlier? Yeah? Yeah, now the well, first off, 604 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 1: the survivors, the people that attended have been hugely important 605 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 1: to being able to make this, being able to get 606 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,239 Speaker 1: an idea of actually what went on, because obviously with 607 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:05,239 Speaker 1: something like this, the people that worked there or were 608 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 1: involved do not want to talk about it. A lot 609 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 1: of the survivors, luckily, over time, were willing to come 610 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 1: and speak with me and tell me about their experience. 611 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:19,319 Speaker 1: Since then, I've had survivors I didn't talk to reach 612 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 1: out saying thank you for covering this. You know, this 613 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:28,720 Speaker 1: has been hugely cathartic for me and lead to getting 614 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: some therapy or somebody else said they finally were able 615 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 1: to talk to their parents about it, who had never 616 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 1: told them this. A lot of them felt guilt, didn't 617 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 1: want their parents to feel guilt, so they never opened 618 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 1: up about the abuse the experience there. And on top 619 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,279 Speaker 1: of the survivors, I've had a few people reach out 620 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 1: with similar stories, saying please look into this um one 621 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:54,759 Speaker 1: that just seemed like this huge summer camp that like 622 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,839 Speaker 1: kids get sent to every year that had largely been 623 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:03,440 Speaker 1: uh India's and things like that where people by contract 624 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 1: cannot speak about. UM. You know, there was another organization 625 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,280 Speaker 1: in Florida that went on for like over a hundred 626 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 1: years to the point where they had found um unmarked 627 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,400 Speaker 1: graves there and just in the past few years Florida 628 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 1: had paid out some so many millions of dollars to 629 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,880 Speaker 1: families where they found their relatives had died at this 630 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:29,279 Speaker 1: place and never been reported. That's obviously like the most 631 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,240 Speaker 1: extreme example I've ever heard of. But there are places 632 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:38,160 Speaker 1: that are still out there today where this is happening. UM. 633 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,160 Speaker 1: I can't say to the extent that Anawaki was, but 634 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,799 Speaker 1: there is still not good places. And with that, we're 635 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,919 Speaker 1: gonna take a quick break, but we'll be right back 636 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: with more discussion with Josh Stain. And we returned to 637 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 1: our discussion with Josh. So you talked about you just 638 00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:03,600 Speaker 1: mentioned Florida again, and you early, early in this discussion, 639 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 1: you mentioned that there were campuses in Florida, a couple 640 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:10,480 Speaker 1: of places in Georgia, and then uh, possibly in Mexico 641 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 1: and Canada. Can you can you talk a little bit 642 00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 1: about the maybe the money behind the organizations. And it 643 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,280 Speaker 1: seems it strikes me that if you've got essentially free 644 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:24,799 Speaker 1: labor or labor that's paying you to do for the 645 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 1: you know, for the opportunity to do the hard labor 646 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 1: for your organization, it feels like you could make a 647 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:33,719 Speaker 1: lot of money. And I'm just wondering, like what was 648 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,600 Speaker 1: the money situation like with Anawaki, and what was the 649 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:42,480 Speaker 1: property situation? Like the property was massive. Um I was 650 00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,800 Speaker 1: in the town of Douglasville. I can't have to check 651 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,399 Speaker 1: the exact square footage, but they kept buying land around there, 652 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,720 Speaker 1: and I mean that town of Douglasville was an awake 653 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,799 Speaker 1: for some years. As I said before, Louis Patter was 654 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:57,960 Speaker 1: great at community outreach. So he had this board of 655 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,200 Speaker 1: the directors and then poor people in the community who 656 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,359 Speaker 1: were also some very wealthy who were giving a lot 657 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,359 Speaker 1: of money to this organization. Once they finally were able 658 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:11,440 Speaker 1: to get a medical license. At that point, you're talking 659 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,640 Speaker 1: insurance premiums, so then you can make the price whatever 660 00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 1: you want. And if they the kids have good insurance 661 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,279 Speaker 1: and their families do, then they're gonna pay it. So 662 00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: this just expanded over years, uh to where they said 663 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:27,840 Speaker 1: they built a second campus in Florida in this little 664 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,000 Speaker 1: town of Carabelle right on the Gulf, this big Marina 665 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:35,680 Speaker 1: town and you know, really good real estate to own, uh, 666 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:40,000 Speaker 1: you know, not far from Panama City Beach. And then 667 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 1: they built a women's campus in Rockmart and they had 668 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 1: by the time everything shook out legally in the eighties, 669 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,919 Speaker 1: it was found that they had property in Mexico, they 670 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,480 Speaker 1: had property in Canada, and in a really smart way, 671 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:58,240 Speaker 1: this guy Lewis Petter built up a second corporation called 672 00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:02,680 Speaker 1: Anawaki Estates and he put his three daughters, uh Marcia, 673 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,719 Speaker 1: Rita and Dana as the head of it. Um. The 674 00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:12,400 Speaker 1: land owned by Anawaki Estates was then being rented to 675 00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:16,560 Speaker 1: the Anawaki Foundation. So basically they're taking the money from 676 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,480 Speaker 1: insurance and then putting it back in their own pocket 677 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:25,360 Speaker 1: through this other corporation. So an awakes paying rent for 678 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: the property that that sits on too Anawaki estates who 679 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:33,880 Speaker 1: are the Petter family. So basically they were able to 680 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,240 Speaker 1: make millions. And then you hear all these other stories 681 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:42,480 Speaker 1: about bringing jewels and gifts from you know, very wealthy 682 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,920 Speaker 1: families in Mexico, sneaking them back over the border. And 683 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:48,560 Speaker 1: even I had heard a story Lewis Petter had a 684 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,840 Speaker 1: fake leg that he he would yeah, he had a 685 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:56,279 Speaker 1: wooden leg, and that he would even hide jewels from 686 00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 1: these wealthy families in Mexico in his leg to bring 687 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 1: over the order. And at some point he actually had 688 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,840 Speaker 1: to give up like thirty dollars worth the jewelry to 689 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,880 Speaker 1: the County of Douglasville. So yeah, there's a lot of 690 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,160 Speaker 1: money tied into this place. I just can't I can't 691 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,319 Speaker 1: tell if that's fraud. I don't know legally if that 692 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,360 Speaker 1: is fraud to like own the organ own the company 693 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:22,040 Speaker 1: that then you're nonprofit or your medical whatever it is, pays. 694 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,160 Speaker 1: There was definitely some shady financial stuff going on, and 695 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:30,080 Speaker 1: that was kind of the start of the end um. 696 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,920 Speaker 1: You know, like first off, they were calling themselves a 697 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,319 Speaker 1: nonprofit organization on top of all this, which they were 698 00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:41,439 Speaker 1: absolutely profiting, and they were also tax exempt. So when 699 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:45,839 Speaker 1: you start messing with taxes, the insurance companies start, you know, 700 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:49,200 Speaker 1: questioning what's really going on here, what type of treatment 701 00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,799 Speaker 1: is happening, or we really, uh, should we really be 702 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,160 Speaker 1: paying you this. That's when things kind of got a 703 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,400 Speaker 1: little weird. And there were a few kind of mysterious 704 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,040 Speaker 1: deaths that happened around that time. One of them was 705 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,759 Speaker 1: the accountant for the place. And so when things get 706 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:09,160 Speaker 1: weird with the money, people start in fighting. That was 707 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,720 Speaker 1: kind of what led to finally UM some some cracks 708 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,920 Speaker 1: and cracks in the foundation for law enforcement to get involved. 709 00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,120 Speaker 1: You know, I've I've heard a rumor that I think 710 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 1: we talked about a long time ago in discussion of this. 711 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,120 Speaker 1: There's a rumor about where all that money that was 712 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:32,040 Speaker 1: made kind of went. We can't say the name of 713 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:41,200 Speaker 1: the organization, but there's a very large, powerful educational organization 714 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,640 Speaker 1: in Georgia UM that is a very close relation to 715 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:49,000 Speaker 1: the Petter family was a part of the Petter family 716 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:53,719 Speaker 1: and began around the time that Antawaki was broken up. 717 00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,279 Speaker 1: So where all that money from Anawaki ended up at. 718 00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,800 Speaker 1: We know some of it went to Douglasville, but question 719 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:08,080 Speaker 1: to victims and families. Right, yes, settlement. I would say 720 00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,799 Speaker 1: more was paid to attorneys, but some were paid out 721 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,600 Speaker 1: in a settlement in a class action lawsuit. But yeah, 722 00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:18,959 Speaker 1: this uh, this large educational organization started around the same time, 723 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,160 Speaker 1: so it's questionable where some of that seed money may 724 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:27,160 Speaker 1: have come from. Yeah, careful on purpose, folks, But this 725 00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:31,640 Speaker 1: is uh, this, this is this stuff. I love, Josh. 726 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,359 Speaker 1: This is the week. We're getting to the part of 727 00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:41,000 Speaker 1: the story where we all realize that this is ongoing. 728 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,800 Speaker 1: You know, history is very much with us. Fulktor is correct. 729 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:50,520 Speaker 1: This is not a dusty a dusty story from an 730 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:54,960 Speaker 1: outdated history book. The people who survived this are alive 731 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,160 Speaker 1: and you know, as we said, Camp Hell is ongoing 732 00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:02,719 Speaker 1: right now. There are some spoilers that Matt Nolan I 733 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:06,160 Speaker 1: don't know. We're right there with you, folks. We we 734 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:09,560 Speaker 1: can ask Josh stuff and he'll tell us, you know, sorry, 735 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:13,200 Speaker 1: you to wait for episode uh, you know eight or 736 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:16,279 Speaker 1: something like that. So we're on this journey with you, 737 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,960 Speaker 1: m Josh. I have to ask because it's killing me 738 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,080 Speaker 1: and I think it's something that is on the mind 739 00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,520 Speaker 1: of a lot of our folks in the audience today. 740 00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:28,920 Speaker 1: Is Dr Petter alive. No, he lived to be the 741 00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:35,040 Speaker 1: right old age of ninety two. Wow, and yeah, I 742 00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:39,000 Speaker 1: mean spoiler alert or not, um, he can find out. 743 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,879 Speaker 1: But case in point, he lived much longer than let's say, 744 00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:47,080 Speaker 1: the authorities thought he would and largely lived out the 745 00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,960 Speaker 1: rest of his life okay, with him and his wife 746 00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:53,920 Speaker 1: and a couple of German shepherds. So he but he 747 00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:58,160 Speaker 1: was found guilty of some of these things. There was 748 00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:02,680 Speaker 1: a settlement reached, a deal was made. Oh my gosh, 749 00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:06,759 Speaker 1: the mystery. To give you a sense of the stakes here, 750 00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:10,919 Speaker 1: we do have to be careful with language. Always say 751 00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,920 Speaker 1: things like there was a settlement reached. There was absolutely, 752 00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:20,040 Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's known public document um, you know. 753 00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:24,080 Speaker 1: And I spoke with the d A and extensively about this, 754 00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:26,640 Speaker 1: which will get into in some of these later episodes. 755 00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,640 Speaker 1: And by all purposes, it's sounded by speaking to in 756 00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:35,640 Speaker 1: speaking with him, that this was extremely difficult to take 757 00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:39,400 Speaker 1: this place down. It was so entrenched in local government 758 00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:44,120 Speaker 1: and education and all of these things that they had 759 00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:48,359 Speaker 1: to do whatever they could to just break up this organization, 760 00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,160 Speaker 1: break up the money, make sure that they couldn't keep 761 00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:56,640 Speaker 1: going on. And you know, unfortunately when that happens, sometimes 762 00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:59,520 Speaker 1: a lot of people get off. Still some people never 763 00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:04,120 Speaker 1: get charged. Um, this second campus in Florida, nothing happened. 764 00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:08,359 Speaker 1: Nobody was charged down there at all. And that's what's 765 00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:10,160 Speaker 1: a really heartbreaking when you get to the truth of 766 00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:14,960 Speaker 1: this stuff, that there was no unsoiled justice for these people. 767 00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:18,200 Speaker 1: Every step of the way, there's always a an asterisk 768 00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,759 Speaker 1: when something seemed to be getting done about it. And 769 00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:26,280 Speaker 1: this makes it a genuine conspiracy at times. Right when 770 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:30,600 Speaker 1: we know that when um, when you get down into 771 00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:34,319 Speaker 1: the local level of a lot of a lot of communities, 772 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:40,200 Speaker 1: the government's the authorities are you know, human easily corruptible. 773 00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:43,279 Speaker 1: There's still people that live in a in a relatively 774 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:48,040 Speaker 1: small sphere right of of familiar contacts. We all go 775 00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:51,360 Speaker 1: to the Key Club or the Lions Club or whatever 776 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,799 Speaker 1: so I can help you take the heat off, etcetera. 777 00:49:55,120 --> 00:50:00,000 Speaker 1: Do you think that the average resident of douglas Ville 778 00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,160 Speaker 1: is aware of anna wiki at this point or is 779 00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:06,400 Speaker 1: it just like a weird series of names on streets. Yeah, 780 00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,960 Speaker 1: it's funny how you talked about the folklore of it. 781 00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,799 Speaker 1: Since then, in speaking with people, are people reaching out 782 00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:16,880 Speaker 1: to me through the Instagram page or writing reviews of 783 00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:20,400 Speaker 1: the podcast, people would say things like, gosh, I didn't 784 00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,600 Speaker 1: think this was real. We heard stories, or you know, 785 00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:25,880 Speaker 1: I used to live by there. I had no clue. 786 00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:29,640 Speaker 1: This thing went on from people having completely no idea 787 00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,920 Speaker 1: to gosh, we always heard stories, or like, uh, one 788 00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:36,320 Speaker 1: of my wife's relatives said something like, oh yeah, I 789 00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:37,960 Speaker 1: remember people when we were kids. They'd be like, I'm 790 00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:40,600 Speaker 1: gonna send you to Antawaki if you act up things 791 00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:42,400 Speaker 1: like that, you know what I mean, where it's just 792 00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:47,080 Speaker 1: kind of known, but not really the extent. And um, 793 00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:50,520 Speaker 1: even today though a lot of younger people have no 794 00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:54,279 Speaker 1: clue what went on when I went to Florida and 795 00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:58,239 Speaker 1: Carabelle is a town with literally no stoplight to give 796 00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:01,440 Speaker 1: you an idea, the size of it very small. Um. 797 00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:05,920 Speaker 1: And even then with this happening, I mean thirty five 798 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:10,000 Speaker 1: forty years ago now, had most of the town had 799 00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:14,400 Speaker 1: no clue about it unless they were there at the time. Um, 800 00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:16,759 Speaker 1: And if they weren't, it's like it was just completely 801 00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:18,920 Speaker 1: erased off the history books. And as you said, with 802 00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:23,399 Speaker 1: authorities being involved, I mean, that was another factor that 803 00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:26,680 Speaker 1: led to it finally being broken up was a change 804 00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:30,160 Speaker 1: of sheriff in Douglasville. Um. For years there was this 805 00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:33,680 Speaker 1: guy's sheriff, Abercrumby who he had a horse farm and 806 00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:37,600 Speaker 1: they've got to do uh horse lessons over the sheriff's 807 00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,440 Speaker 1: house or go work on his house. And finally that 808 00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:44,879 Speaker 1: shifted to this really controversial figure Sheriff Earl Lee, who 809 00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:48,040 Speaker 1: was kind of a badass up in those parts apparently, 810 00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:50,880 Speaker 1: and um he was the one that finally, you know, 811 00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:52,799 Speaker 1: had been hearing things and decided to try and do 812 00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:57,400 Speaker 1: something about it. So yeah, definitely lots of people that 813 00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:00,120 Speaker 1: were aware of this, and we found out late or 814 00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:04,640 Speaker 1: two that Lewis Petter had been ousted from UM Defacts 815 00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:09,760 Speaker 1: and Savannah for doing questionable things with kids and somehow 816 00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:13,239 Speaker 1: kept weaving his way through government bodies after that. You know. 817 00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:16,080 Speaker 1: That was that was a really disturbing early part of 818 00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:20,120 Speaker 1: the podcast, like hearing about the details of that, and 819 00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:21,759 Speaker 1: I kind of don't even want to go into him 820 00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:24,720 Speaker 1: right now about what he was doing with those uh kids, 821 00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:30,880 Speaker 1: but it's worth listening to an episode to hear it 822 00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:35,120 Speaker 1: if you're interested, but it is, uh, well, it's just 823 00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:37,879 Speaker 1: mind blowing to me that that people working in these 824 00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,759 Speaker 1: organizations were like, you know that there are these like 825 00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:44,320 Speaker 1: I don't want to say wives tales because they were true, 826 00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:48,040 Speaker 1: but that like these rumors of this awful behavior going 827 00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:51,360 Speaker 1: on about a guy, and like nobody called the cops. 828 00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,040 Speaker 1: It was just like, oh, yeah, he he left because 829 00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:58,960 Speaker 1: he was doing this thing. Yeah. And again it's unfortunately 830 00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,000 Speaker 1: a pattern and that we see all too often people 831 00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:11,080 Speaker 1: navigating through these byzantine layers of power and bureaucracy to 832 00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:19,160 Speaker 1: isolate their victims. Right, this is purposeful. Doctors was not improvising. Yeah, 833 00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:22,840 Speaker 1: he was a master of what you just described. Like 834 00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:25,319 Speaker 1: you said, everyone describes him as one of the most 835 00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:29,600 Speaker 1: charismatic people that they've encountered. So like on the surface, 836 00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:32,239 Speaker 1: he was just he was operating at that level. And 837 00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:36,920 Speaker 1: at this point, folks, to be absolutely transparent with you, 838 00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:43,200 Speaker 1: this this story is not a story that Matt Noel 839 00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:46,840 Speaker 1: and I tell, uh, And this is this is a 840 00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:50,919 Speaker 1: story that Josh you have uncovered. And I would say 841 00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:54,680 Speaker 1: you were telling the story collectively, right with the survivors, 842 00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:57,520 Speaker 1: with the d as, with it with the people who 843 00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:02,680 Speaker 1: were working to bring it to light. Uh. The story 844 00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:07,200 Speaker 1: is ongoing. Camp Hell and Awaki is available now wherever 845 00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:10,640 Speaker 1: you find your podcast, and it is also as we 846 00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:14,359 Speaker 1: said at the top in our opinion, UH an incredibly 847 00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:22,200 Speaker 1: crucial story right now because these things are ongoing. Josh, 848 00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:24,680 Speaker 1: I would I'd like to first thank you for being 849 00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:28,320 Speaker 1: so generous with your time today, man, But secondly, where 850 00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:32,600 Speaker 1: can people learn more? Where? Where would you direct them? Yes, 851 00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:36,320 Speaker 1: we actually UH did a really great interview with the 852 00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:40,560 Speaker 1: head of the National Center for Child Advocacy and we 853 00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:44,160 Speaker 1: have released that as a full bonus episode if you 854 00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,279 Speaker 1: want to check it out. His name's Chris Newland, and 855 00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:48,759 Speaker 1: he really breaks a lot of this stuff down. Things 856 00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:52,480 Speaker 1: to look for UM, how they work with all the 857 00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:57,000 Speaker 1: different types of organizations, multidisciplinary such as law enforcement, the 858 00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:00,799 Speaker 1: judicial system, educators, social workers. What you really have to 859 00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:03,680 Speaker 1: do in these types of things, because that's how things 860 00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:07,680 Speaker 1: get covered up and that's how they go on for years, 861 00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:11,360 Speaker 1: is not checking across the board. Another website that he 862 00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:13,680 Speaker 1: recommended to me to check out is the Darkness to 863 00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:17,480 Speaker 1: Light website, and that has a great a lot of 864 00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:21,480 Speaker 1: resources if you're concerned about something, if you want to 865 00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:25,319 Speaker 1: know what to look for UM or just need to 866 00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,319 Speaker 1: know where to go to report something. So Darkness to 867 00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:32,400 Speaker 1: Light that website and that's d to the number two 868 00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:35,680 Speaker 1: l dot Org. Correct. Yeah, thank you guys so much 869 00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:39,799 Speaker 1: for having me on. I really appreciate y'all letting me 870 00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:42,480 Speaker 1: speak about it. Yeah, thanks for covering the story. Man, 871 00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:47,480 Speaker 1: I'm I'm glad it's finally like happening. It's crazy to 872 00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:50,640 Speaker 1: think that it's happening. Yeah, you know, just from a 873 00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:54,000 Speaker 1: quick little hey we're a conversation in a car to hey, 874 00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:57,640 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about this story too. Now you're I think 875 00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:00,120 Speaker 1: you're like eight or nine episodes in when this so 876 00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:02,480 Speaker 1: it comes out. So yeah, yeah, about two years in 877 00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:05,640 Speaker 1: the works. And uh again, thank you Matt for pushing 878 00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:09,840 Speaker 1: me to keep pulling that thread, which we still are. Yeah. 879 00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:12,640 Speaker 1: I also just on a personal level, peek behind the 880 00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:17,040 Speaker 1: curtain pre pandemic, Josh and I were work neighbors. Uh. 881 00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:21,480 Speaker 1: I still remember your very weird first day, my friend. 882 00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:26,000 Speaker 1: But but did you hear a lot of like what 883 00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:30,719 Speaker 1: from his desk? Yeah, that's a lot of a lot 884 00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:34,520 Speaker 1: of surprise in my first day. Another story. That's another story. 885 00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,480 Speaker 1: But I do I do wanna just check in and say, 886 00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:42,240 Speaker 1: you know, I hope you are doing well because these 887 00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:47,320 Speaker 1: things can wear on you, you know, so as you 888 00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:51,080 Speaker 1: as you said earlier, for anyone who feels like they 889 00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:55,280 Speaker 1: are struggling, either with something that happened in the past 890 00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:59,160 Speaker 1: something that's ongoing, do know you're not alone. There are 891 00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:05,160 Speaker 1: resource is available and stories like this are important for 892 00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:08,840 Speaker 1: exactly the same for exactly the reason Josh said earlier. 893 00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:13,799 Speaker 1: When we are empowered with knowledge, we have the ability. 894 00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:16,120 Speaker 1: We cannot change the past, of course, but we do 895 00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:21,160 Speaker 1: have the ability to work toward a better future, hopefully, 896 00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:26,120 Speaker 1: and that is a much needed, I think, positive note 897 00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:29,840 Speaker 1: in the world we live in today. We want to 898 00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:35,400 Speaker 1: hear your experiences. Check out Camp Hell and Awake uh. 899 00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:40,320 Speaker 1: You will be able to find resources online. There is 900 00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:43,080 Speaker 1: a Facebook page as well as they're not Josh. Yes, 901 00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:47,480 Speaker 1: it's actually a podcast discussion group my wife created and 902 00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:52,640 Speaker 1: it has been amazing to see the feedback on that um. 903 00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:55,360 Speaker 1: So many survivors have now become a part of it. 904 00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:58,400 Speaker 1: They have their own an Awaki Survivor Facebook page, but 905 00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:02,280 Speaker 1: they've also come and give insight into things we talked 906 00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:05,000 Speaker 1: about on the podcast. Are people that have spoken on it, 907 00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:08,560 Speaker 1: and very interesting to just see the back and forth 908 00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:12,480 Speaker 1: of what people remember or posting old pictures of the 909 00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:16,440 Speaker 1: campus and their experiences, and there's really a whole community 910 00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:18,680 Speaker 1: of the people. I mean, thousands of kids went through 911 00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:21,280 Speaker 1: this place and a lot of the survivors still keep 912 00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:24,280 Speaker 1: in touch and uh most of mostly all of them 913 00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:26,840 Speaker 1: have been very supportive of it. So check out the 914 00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:30,240 Speaker 1: Campell and Waki podcast discussion Facebook group, and we also 915 00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:34,760 Speaker 1: have an Instagram page camp help Ood on Instagram with 916 00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:38,440 Speaker 1: just more pictures of things that I've seen and uh, 917 00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:41,840 Speaker 1: people involved in that type of thing. And you can 918 00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:46,720 Speaker 1: also while you're online, uh, drop by and visit Matt 919 00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:53,080 Speaker 1: Noell and myself were conspiracy stuff. Conspiracy Stuff show, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, 920 00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:56,960 Speaker 1: all the hits. Check out our YouTube channel which is 921 00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:01,120 Speaker 1: also conspiracy stuff. Uh. And if you are not the 922 00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:04,480 Speaker 1: type of person to sip on the social meads, but 923 00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:07,640 Speaker 1: you have a story to tell, then never fear. We 924 00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:09,880 Speaker 1: have many other ways you can contact us. One of 925 00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:13,320 Speaker 1: our favorite is our phone number, isn't it Matt. That's right, 926 00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:15,439 Speaker 1: we have a phone number. It is one three three 927 00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:19,080 Speaker 1: st d w y t K. And when you call, 928 00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:21,160 Speaker 1: please tell us the name you would like for us 929 00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:22,640 Speaker 1: to refer to you, as it doesn't have to be 930 00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:27,360 Speaker 1: your real name. It could be a really cool nickname, oh, 931 00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:31,480 Speaker 1: code names, yes, uh, And then just leave us your message. 932 00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:33,360 Speaker 1: Then anything you want to say personally to us, please 933 00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:35,280 Speaker 1: leave it at the end. It's just easier for us 934 00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:38,000 Speaker 1: to keep the important part right in the front. We 935 00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:40,000 Speaker 1: can put it on the air. Oh also let us 936 00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:42,000 Speaker 1: know if we can use your message on air. That's 937 00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:45,480 Speaker 1: important just for legal reasons. Our lawyers appreciate it, and 938 00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:48,000 Speaker 1: so do we, and we ask that you only call 939 00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:51,000 Speaker 1: once if you can. If you've got a lot to say, 940 00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:54,360 Speaker 1: we recommend you use our good old fashioned email address 941 00:59:54,440 --> 01:00:00,000 Speaker 1: where we are conspiracy at i heart radio dot com. 942 01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:18,720 Speaker 1: M Stuff they Don't want you to know is a 943 01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:21,760 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my 944 01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:24,800 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 945 01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:26,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.