1
00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,120
Speaker 1: Moving on with our next episode in the playlist, This

2
00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:08,160
Speaker 1: one's on a horrific and truly saddening multiple acts murder

3
00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,680
Speaker 1: in Iowa in nineteen twelve. To some, it looks like

4
00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,240
Speaker 1: a random act of violence committed by someone who is

5
00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,520
Speaker 1: a stranger to the victims, but some odd clues also

6
00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,120
Speaker 1: point to it as the work of possibly someone who

7
00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,520
Speaker 1: knew all of the people who died, which included children.

8
00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,920
Speaker 1: This one is harrowing, interesting, and bizarre.

9
00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:41,400
Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from HowStuffWorks dot com.

10
00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,840
Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, There's

11
00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:48,360
Speaker 1: Charles w Chuck Bryant, there's Jerry put The three of

12
00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:52,400
Speaker 1: us together, had a little mystery, a lot of mayhem.

13
00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:54,840
Speaker 3: You got stuff you should know and one axe?

14
00:00:55,280 --> 00:01:00,120
Speaker 4: Yeah acts, how many is this? Three?

15
00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:05,200
Speaker 1: We got Lizzy Borden yep, effect yep, and then this one.

16
00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:06,399
Speaker 1: I couldn't think of anymore.

17
00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:08,320
Speaker 4: Well, I looked It's funny because I looked at I

18
00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:09,480
Speaker 4: was like, I wonder if we could do a spin

19
00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:15,920
Speaker 4: off show just on X murderers. And Wikipedia had thirty listed.

20
00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:19,560
Speaker 1: I'm surprised that if there's like ten mentioned in this

21
00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:23,800
Speaker 1: this article alone, Well we'll see why there are so

22
00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:28,840
Speaker 1: many X murders. This, this, this whole researching the Veliska

23
00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:32,920
Speaker 1: ax murder kind of solved a question I've had that

24
00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,440
Speaker 1: I didn't realize I knew had.

25
00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:36,600
Speaker 4: How to pronounce Boliska.

26
00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,000
Speaker 1: We just settled that by calling the Velliska town Hall.

27
00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:42,160
Speaker 4: I know, that was a pretty great moment. Right before

28
00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:44,600
Speaker 4: we recorded, I was like, are you sure there's a Mellissa?

29
00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,400
Speaker 4: Josh called the town hall and lied.

30
00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,480
Speaker 1: Well, it was kind of a bet that she settled. Yeah, said,

31
00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:54,840
Speaker 1: we just never put money on it.

32
00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,400
Speaker 4: So if you are whoever answers the phone at the

33
00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:02,559
Speaker 4: Veliska town Hall, all, thank you. You got a call today,

34
00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:07,320
Speaker 4: so congratulations. And second of all, you just spoke to

35
00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:08,560
Speaker 4: an internet celebrity.

36
00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,760
Speaker 1: I don't know, man, I think Velliska is on the

37
00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,480
Speaker 1: map and it is one hundred percent because of this

38
00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:16,560
Speaker 1: this murder.

39
00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,600
Speaker 4: Well, if you just type in Veliska, almost all you

40
00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:22,640
Speaker 4: see is stuff about the axe murder.

41
00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:28,280
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, the site Veliska, Iowa dot com is entirely dedicated.

42
00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:28,639
Speaker 3: To this axe murder.

43
00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:30,520
Speaker 1: It's a it's a pretty big deal.

44
00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:33,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it's just it doesn't mention it at all.

45
00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,200
Speaker 4: But all the copy is just in the outline of

46
00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:39,600
Speaker 4: the shape of an axe. They just talk about like

47
00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,200
Speaker 4: their boys club and stuff that they're doing. They're fourth

48
00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,320
Speaker 4: of July praid, but it's in the shape of an ax.

49
00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. The population and elevation is in a drop of

50
00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:49,800
Speaker 1: blood coming off of the axe.

51
00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's as population, not as much as it was

52
00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:54,120
Speaker 4: on June ninth.

53
00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:55,200
Speaker 3: That's morbid.

54
00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:56,240
Speaker 4: Nineteen twelve.

55
00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:58,560
Speaker 1: Did you did you hear about this before?

56
00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,040
Speaker 4: Well, I think after a hint your chaifect, we had

57
00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:11,560
Speaker 4: some emails from probably local iowaans iowaans iowans Iowania Knights saying, hey,

58
00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,640
Speaker 4: you guys should if you're into the not into.

59
00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:16,600
Speaker 3: X murders, but get a load of this.

60
00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,400
Speaker 4: If you're into reporting on grizzly crimes, you should check

61
00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:22,720
Speaker 4: out the one we had in nineteen twelve. Yeah, they

62
00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,679
Speaker 4: were right, man. This is so before we get into it,

63
00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:27,880
Speaker 4: I think it goes without saying listeners that this is

64
00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,640
Speaker 4: a very horrific grizzly crime that we're going to talk

65
00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,880
Speaker 4: about in some detail. Right, listen at your own discretion.

66
00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,360
Speaker 1: X murder is in the title, everybody.

67
00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:40,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, just want to make sure we cover ourselves there.

68
00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:44,680
Speaker 1: This is one of the most brutal crimes in American history. Yeah,

69
00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:46,320
Speaker 1: and a lot of people don't know about it.

70
00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:46,720
Speaker 4: Man.

71
00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:51,840
Speaker 1: Well let's let's let's stop jabbering and get this criming.

72
00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:54,600
Speaker 4: Okay, all right, where was where was this from?

73
00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:59,200
Speaker 1: By the way, Well, one of the articles we researched

74
00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,760
Speaker 1: was from Mike Dash of the Smithsonian magazine.

75
00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:05,200
Speaker 3: They do great work, great work.

76
00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:09,600
Speaker 1: There's another guy named and named Ed Epperley who we

77
00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:11,640
Speaker 1: have to give a shout out to, who has like

78
00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:15,960
Speaker 1: a whole site called ask ed that's dedicated to this murder.

79
00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,200
Speaker 1: Guys researched it for like fifty five years or something

80
00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:19,440
Speaker 1: like that.

81
00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:20,719
Speaker 4: Did he write one of the two books?

82
00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:21,559
Speaker 3: Probably? Sure.

83
00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:21,960
Speaker 4: Yeah.

84
00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,560
Speaker 1: He's widely known as the expert on the veliska axmurt

85
00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:27,400
Speaker 1: He knows everything there is to know, and he's got

86
00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,000
Speaker 1: a really fascinating So if you're even remotely into true

87
00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,520
Speaker 1: crime and this thing floats your boat, go check out

88
00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,120
Speaker 1: Ed's site and you will just spend days pouring over it.

89
00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:36,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

90
00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,080
Speaker 4: One thing I realized in researching this is it was

91
00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,320
Speaker 4: way easier to get away with murder. Yeah in nineteen twelve.

92
00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:48,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, there's a lot of agreement that had this

93
00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,320
Speaker 1: been done today, Yeah, they would have caught the guy

94
00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,720
Speaker 1: very quickly. Sure, But yeah, nineteen twelve, it was like, oh,

95
00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,440
Speaker 1: you wear gloves and you just confounded their only means

96
00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:03,200
Speaker 1: of detection basically and eyewitness pretty much. Yeah, So we

97
00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,680
Speaker 1: keep saying nineteen twelve specifically, Like you said, June ninth,

98
00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:11,040
Speaker 1: nineteen twelve, wo in the little town tenth, Well, it

99
00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,680
Speaker 1: was one of those things where it crossed over into midnight. Right,

100
00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,120
Speaker 1: So June ninth, tenth.

101
00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:17,840
Speaker 4: Depends on if you're still a partying.

102
00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:19,919
Speaker 1: Potato Potato Belliska, Melissa.

103
00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:20,360
Speaker 3: Right.

104
00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:24,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, but at five oh way East second Street in Velliska, Iowa,

105
00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,760
Speaker 1: which is in the County of Montgomery in the southeast

106
00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:30,520
Speaker 1: of the state, I believe not.

107
00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:31,880
Speaker 4: As far from here as I thought.

108
00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:32,320
Speaker 1: No.

109
00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:35,080
Speaker 4: I just looked on a map and I was like, wait,

110
00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:36,280
Speaker 4: I was there.

111
00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:40,400
Speaker 1: I thought I away was like basically in Canada. No, huh,

112
00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:43,560
Speaker 1: where is it this more right in the middle of

113
00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:45,640
Speaker 1: the country. I did not realize that.

114
00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,719
Speaker 4: Like, it doesn't look further west than like Dallas.

115
00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:51,800
Speaker 1: I can believe that. But it was the north that

116
00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,120
Speaker 1: gets you, the northern, the norther ward direction, that's what

117
00:05:55,160 --> 00:06:00,720
Speaker 1: gets your share. So on this night June ninth, tenthnineteen twelve,

118
00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:06,640
Speaker 1: in this little house there were eight people sleeping. There

119
00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:10,239
Speaker 1: were a mom and a dad, Joe and Sarah Moore,

120
00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:17,320
Speaker 1: and then there four kids what were their names, Charles.

121
00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,640
Speaker 4: I believe Hermann, Katherine Boyd and Paul Right.

122
00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:25,520
Speaker 1: And then downstairs there were two additional people sleeping in

123
00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:29,240
Speaker 1: the house, little Lena and Aina Stillinger.

124
00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:30,120
Speaker 4: And they were just having a sleepover.

125
00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:30,400
Speaker 3: Right.

126
00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were friends of Catherine, the oldest daughter or

127
00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,919
Speaker 1: the only daughter I guess, of the Moors, and the

128
00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:42,000
Speaker 1: whole group had been at church. They were Presbyterians, and

129
00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,920
Speaker 1: they had been at church that day. It was Sunday

130
00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:50,040
Speaker 1: for a special Children's Day Mass that Missus Moore had

131
00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,159
Speaker 1: helped put on and the kids had all participated in.

132
00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,159
Speaker 1: And at that mass, Catherine had asked her two friends,

133
00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,600
Speaker 1: Lena and Aina, the sisters, to spend the night. And

134
00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,680
Speaker 1: so they came back home with the Moors from the

135
00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,440
Speaker 1: children's Day Mass, and by I think ten or ten thirty,

136
00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,760
Speaker 1: they were all at home in bed and the lights

137
00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:12,880
Speaker 1: were out and the house was settled in dark.

138
00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, man, the Stillinger girls. I mean, this is all

139
00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:18,960
Speaker 4: very sad, but anytime I hear of a fateful turn,

140
00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:21,960
Speaker 4: like oh, yeah, we just spent the night there that night, right,

141
00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,680
Speaker 4: and things go bad. It always I don't know, bothers

142
00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:25,040
Speaker 4: me more.

143
00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, twists of fate are terrible, especially when

144
00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,840
Speaker 1: they result in terrible deaths.

145
00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,920
Speaker 4: So very late at night, like you said, after midnight,

146
00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,760
Speaker 4: someone crept in to the back of the house which

147
00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:39,480
Speaker 4: was not locked.

148
00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:41,080
Speaker 1: That's up for debate.

149
00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:46,080
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, all right, locked or unlocked? That got in

150
00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:51,160
Speaker 4: without raising suspicion, right, Yeah, two story house and this

151
00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:53,880
Speaker 4: is a small town, is there were I don't even

152
00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,360
Speaker 4: think two thousand people living there then, and I think

153
00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,680
Speaker 4: even less now than there were back then. Yeah, one

154
00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:03,600
Speaker 4: of those places. So this person, and I think by

155
00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:05,600
Speaker 4: all accounts we can safely say it was a man

156
00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:11,920
Speaker 4: creeps in this house with an axe from the property.

157
00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was Joe Moore's own axe.

158
00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:14,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

159
00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,160
Speaker 4: And as we will see, apparently they call these weapons

160
00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:22,960
Speaker 4: of convenience because back in the day, every single house

161
00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,280
Speaker 4: in the US had an axe, like in the front

162
00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:26,920
Speaker 4: or backyard.

163
00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,120
Speaker 1: That just explained it. That was the question I didn't

164
00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,960
Speaker 1: realize i'd had. Why were there so many axe murderers

165
00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,480
Speaker 1: at a certain period of time in American history was

166
00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:36,720
Speaker 1: because everybody had an.

167
00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,880
Speaker 4: Axe, Yeah, and you would leave it just you know, yeah,

168
00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,520
Speaker 4: like chopped into the stump that you use as the

169
00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:44,600
Speaker 4: chopping block or whatever.

170
00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:46,480
Speaker 1: It'd be like a weapon of convenience.

171
00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:48,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, these days you would have to kill people with

172
00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,920
Speaker 4: like a mailbox, right, just some something that everyone has, like.

173
00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,319
Speaker 1: A silicone' spatula.

174
00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:02,160
Speaker 4: Or a high speed internet cable. There chokes somebody with that. Yeah, Okay,

175
00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:04,959
Speaker 4: all joking aside. So this dude creeps in there. He's

176
00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,880
Speaker 4: got this axe. He gets and this is very key here.

177
00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,400
Speaker 4: He gets the lamp, an oil lamp from the dresser

178
00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,959
Speaker 4: inside the house. He takes off the chimney the glass

179
00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:19,400
Speaker 4: you know, covering, and takes it off, bends the wick

180
00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,560
Speaker 4: in half so the flame is smaller, lights the lamp,

181
00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:27,319
Speaker 4: and then turns it down really low, and then commences creeping.

182
00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, with an axe in hand in this low light

183
00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:32,800
Speaker 1: oil lamp in the.

184
00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,160
Speaker 4: Other chimneyless lamp, which we'll see is a big clue.

185
00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:39,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. So he goes up the stairs, apparently, so he

186
00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,800
Speaker 1: passes the Stillinger girls first, yep, goes up the stairs.

187
00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:49,240
Speaker 1: He passes the children's bedroom and then opposite I believe

188
00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:53,320
Speaker 1: the landing from the children's bedroom are Joe and Sarah's room,

189
00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:57,200
Speaker 1: or is Joe and Sarah's room, and they're sleeping, and

190
00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:01,040
Speaker 1: he sets the oil lamp down believe at the foot

191
00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,199
Speaker 1: of the bed, and he raises the axe over his

192
00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:10,559
Speaker 1: head and using the flat the flat end, flat side

193
00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:12,960
Speaker 1: of the axe, not the sharp blade side, but the

194
00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:17,520
Speaker 1: other side, he delivers a blow to Joe's head. Joe,

195
00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:19,760
Speaker 1: I believe was lying on his back, even though Smithsonian

196
00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:20,880
Speaker 1: article says something different.

197
00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, raise it so high, he even gouged the ceiling correct.

198
00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, brought it down hard on Joe's head, probably killed

199
00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:29,240
Speaker 1: him instantly from that one blow.

200
00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:30,120
Speaker 4: Yeah.

201
00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:34,240
Speaker 1: Then apparently he didn't disturb Sarah at all because he

202
00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:36,600
Speaker 1: did the same thing to her. And both of them

203
00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,720
Speaker 1: were found in a position that they would have been sleeping.

204
00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,360
Speaker 1: And there wasn't like the bed clothes weren't ruffled, There

205
00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,840
Speaker 1: wasn't their arm wasn't enough to defend themselves. Right, they

206
00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:47,880
Speaker 1: died in their sleep, it appeared right.

207
00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:53,880
Speaker 4: Yes, So he kills the parents either immediately or they

208
00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:57,880
Speaker 4: die probably pretty quickly, leaves the room and goes next door.

209
00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,200
Speaker 4: And this is really just almost too awful. To talk about.

210
00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:03,599
Speaker 4: But he kills all the children in their sleep.

211
00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,520
Speaker 1: One by one, but again without waking any of them.

212
00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:12,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, by the time he got to the Stillinger girls downstairs,

213
00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,880
Speaker 4: it seemed evidence points to the fact that they may

214
00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:18,319
Speaker 4: have awakened.

215
00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:20,960
Speaker 1: Finally one of them, the older one Leen, and I

216
00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:22,199
Speaker 1: believe is the older.

217
00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:25,880
Speaker 4: One, and then he dispatches with both of them in

218
00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,559
Speaker 4: the same manner. Yeah, grizzly, awful murder.

219
00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:31,880
Speaker 1: So that's bad enough, right, This guy just went around

220
00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,520
Speaker 1: and murdered eight people, six of them children under the

221
00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:38,360
Speaker 1: age of twelve. Yeah, or twelve are under with the

222
00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:42,680
Speaker 1: blunted of an axe. That's bad enough. But then it

223
00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:44,960
Speaker 1: just gets a million times worse. And this is probably

224
00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:50,400
Speaker 1: why this axe murder is just part of American history,

225
00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,600
Speaker 1: whether we like it or not. So what the guy

226
00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,160
Speaker 1: does next is, well, he took the axe and he

227
00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:01,559
Speaker 1: flips it over, and he takes the sharp side, and

228
00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,800
Speaker 1: he goes around and he starts bashing everybody's head in

229
00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:11,440
Speaker 1: one by one. Apparently, Joe was later found to have

230
00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,800
Speaker 1: been struck as many as thirty times in the head

231
00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,480
Speaker 1: with the acts. Yeah, just one by one he went

232
00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,400
Speaker 1: around and completely caved in the head and face of

233
00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,719
Speaker 1: all of his victims methodically throughout the house after they

234
00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:30,040
Speaker 1: were dead, which is a bizarre, horrible thing to do.

235
00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,760
Speaker 4: Yeah. So then it gets a little bit strange. He

236
00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,360
Speaker 4: goes around to the rooms and all over the house

237
00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:42,559
Speaker 4: really and does different things in each one. He covers

238
00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,480
Speaker 4: windows with sheets and things. He covers mirrors.

239
00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:47,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, all the mirrors in the house were covered.

240
00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:50,959
Speaker 4: He covered the faces of I believe all the victims, right.

241
00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, one way or another. I believe all of their

242
00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:56,000
Speaker 1: faces were covered.

243
00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:57,880
Speaker 4: With either sheets or pillowcases. Or I think in the

244
00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,240
Speaker 4: case of the girls, he pulled their dresses up over

245
00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:00,800
Speaker 4: their faces.

246
00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:01,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

247
00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:02,480
Speaker 1: We'll talk about that in a second.

248
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:10,000
Speaker 4: Uh. Yeah, it's very I think in the serial killer

249
00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,240
Speaker 4: or psychopath mode. Though I've heard of stuff like that

250
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:14,280
Speaker 4: before though.

251
00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:18,599
Speaker 1: Right, Like, you get the idea that they don't the

252
00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,600
Speaker 1: murderer doesn't want the victim looking at him, Yeah, which

253
00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,280
Speaker 1: may also explain why he bashed their faces in you know.

254
00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:31,360
Speaker 1: So the guy apparently hangs out for a little while.

255
00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:33,720
Speaker 4: He does other weird things though.

256
00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,640
Speaker 1: With the bacon, he grabbed a two pound slab of bacon,

257
00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,520
Speaker 1: and I saw elsewhere that there was another slab of

258
00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,480
Speaker 1: bacon found in the house, but there was at least

259
00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:44,480
Speaker 1: one two pound slab of bacon that he wrapped in

260
00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:46,720
Speaker 1: a dish towel and then left on the floor of

261
00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,240
Speaker 1: one of the bedrooms, so weird. There was a bowl

262
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,000
Speaker 1: of bloody water that was later found he washed himself off.

263
00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:58,199
Speaker 1: He washed off the axe, although he left it behind,

264
00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,360
Speaker 1: and he apparently hung out for a little while in

265
00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:07,160
Speaker 1: the house before leaving sometime before five am. So the

266
00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:12,599
Speaker 1: murders took place around midnight and then come five am,

267
00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,760
Speaker 1: the house is dark still it's five am, so that's

268
00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,040
Speaker 1: not the weirdest thing, although we're talking about Iowa, so

269
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,360
Speaker 1: plenty of people were up at five, including the neighbor,

270
00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,760
Speaker 1: a woman named Mary Peckham, and she noticed that there

271
00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,840
Speaker 1: wasn't anybody up at the house, which was a little odd.

272
00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,880
Speaker 1: It was a Monday morning now, and by seven she

273
00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,960
Speaker 1: thought it was just downright eerie that there was no

274
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,160
Speaker 1: sign of life at the house. She went over and

275
00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,480
Speaker 1: let the Moor's chickens out so that they could peck

276
00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:49,280
Speaker 1: around and feed. She called Joe Moore's store and said, hey,

277
00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,320
Speaker 1: has Joe showed up and found from the employee that

278
00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,360
Speaker 1: he hadn't and finally one of those two gets in

279
00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,520
Speaker 1: touch with a guy named Ross Moore, Joe Moore's brother,

280
00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:02,160
Speaker 1: and Ross comes over over and unlocks the door. The

281
00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:06,720
Speaker 1: front door is locked, and he goes inside and he

282
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,840
Speaker 1: comes almost immediately rushing back out calling for the local

283
00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:11,920
Speaker 1: marshal to be called.

284
00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, basically he gets Hank Horton is the marshall's name,

285
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,760
Speaker 4: He gets him on the scene, and this is where

286
00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,440
Speaker 4: things just kind of go berserk. It's such a small town,

287
00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:30,080
Speaker 4: such a grizzly crime. Any chances of preserving a crime scene,

288
00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:32,720
Speaker 4: and this is nineteen twelve. I don't even know how

289
00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,720
Speaker 4: much a small town like this knows about preserving a

290
00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:40,080
Speaker 4: crime scene at the time, but any hopes were lost

291
00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:44,400
Speaker 4: within those first few hours after the discovery, because by

292
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,520
Speaker 4: all accounts, there were one hundred or more people that

293
00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:52,479
Speaker 4: went through that house, from doctors to coroners, to investigators

294
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:56,400
Speaker 4: to just townspeople, right, that were allowed to just go

295
00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:57,400
Speaker 4: in there and check things out.

296
00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:03,720
Speaker 1: Yeah. So the first group that come with the marshall,

297
00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:08,680
Speaker 1: Hank Horton, right, was two doctors and a minister.

298
00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,680
Speaker 4: J Clark Cooper, right, great doctor name J Clark Cooper

299
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:17,000
Speaker 4: and Edgar Huff and Wesley Ewing, who was the minister

300
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:18,200
Speaker 4: of the church.

301
00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:20,480
Speaker 1: They were the first contingent to make it into the

302
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,920
Speaker 1: house after Ross Moore came running out. So they go

303
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,560
Speaker 1: in and they know enough to not disturb things too much.

304
00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:32,880
Speaker 1: Another guy gets brought in, La Linquist. He's the coroner.

305
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:33,320
Speaker 3: Yep.

306
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,560
Speaker 1: He tries to take some notes about the crime scene.

307
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,960
Speaker 1: But the person who got the most information was another doctor.

308
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,240
Speaker 1: His name was F. S.

309
00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:44,680
Speaker 4: Williams.

310
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:45,240
Speaker 3: Yeah. F. S.

311
00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,760
Speaker 1: Williams was the one who examined the body and at

312
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,080
Speaker 1: a later inquest he had the most details to offer

313
00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,640
Speaker 1: about the bodies and positions all that stuff. So when

314
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:57,680
Speaker 1: those guys walked in, they were at least well versed

315
00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:02,240
Speaker 1: enough to know not disturbed things as much as possible,

316
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,159
Speaker 1: or at least more than the townspeople knew.

317
00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:05,000
Speaker 3: And F. S.

318
00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:09,400
Speaker 1: Williams allegedly came out of the house pretty shaken and said,

319
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,199
Speaker 1: don't go in there, boys, you'll regret it to your

320
00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:16,400
Speaker 1: last day. And the townspeople said, nuts to you. We're

321
00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,400
Speaker 1: going inside. We want to see some dead bodies.

322
00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:20,600
Speaker 4: And they all regretted it probably till their last day.

323
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, Because they not only messed with the crime scene.

324
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,240
Speaker 1: They poked around there was supposedly the town drunk took

325
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,680
Speaker 1: fragments of Joe Moore's skull as mementos. Like. The crime

326
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:32,960
Speaker 1: scene was toast, Like you said, if it could have

327
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,760
Speaker 1: ever been preserved, it was toast. And even the local

328
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,919
Speaker 1: druggist showed up with his camera to help preserve the

329
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,520
Speaker 1: crime scene because he heard that the townspeople were tramping

330
00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,119
Speaker 1: all over it and Ross Moore, not understanding what he

331
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,040
Speaker 1: was doing, throw the guy out, thought he was just

332
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:51,920
Speaker 1: being a ghoul trying to get pictures. So the crime

333
00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,359
Speaker 1: scene is utterly and completely lost.

334
00:17:54,920 --> 00:18:00,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, and one of the things about Blesca, said Vassela,

335
00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,080
Speaker 4: is that it was a train town. There were about

336
00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,720
Speaker 4: thirty trains every day that went through there, and so

337
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:11,479
Speaker 4: by this time, unless this person was local and maybe

338
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,240
Speaker 4: hiding out locally, by all accounts, the murder had probably

339
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,520
Speaker 4: hopped the train and was out of there at that time.

340
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:18,160
Speaker 3: But they didn't gone.

341
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,760
Speaker 1: They didn't realize this until they had already released some bloodhounds.

342
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:26,240
Speaker 1: They searched the countryside. There was like a pretty big

343
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:30,360
Speaker 1: search to find whoever did this, and they didn't find anybody.

344
00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:34,560
Speaker 1: So the town was just terrified town. Of two thousand people,

345
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,720
Speaker 1: eight including six children, had just been murdered with an

346
00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,080
Speaker 1: axe in your town. And now the sun's starting to

347
00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:42,000
Speaker 1: go down, and nobody's been caught, all.

348
00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:43,640
Speaker 4: Right, So let's take a break and we'll come back

349
00:18:43,680 --> 00:19:13,679
Speaker 4: and talk about suspect number one right after this. Okay,

350
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,439
Speaker 4: So suspect number one might be a little surprising when

351
00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:22,040
Speaker 4: you first hear that. He was a state senator, very

352
00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:28,000
Speaker 4: well well respected by some as a local businessman and

353
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:33,159
Speaker 4: a very prominent Methodist. Seems the town was pretty sharply

354
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:38,919
Speaker 4: divided between Methodists and Presbyterian you know those days, and

355
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:43,399
Speaker 4: that stuff mattered to those people. And his name was

356
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:44,440
Speaker 4: Frank Jones.

357
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:44,800
Speaker 1: And.

358
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:51,960
Speaker 4: Methodists immediately said, no, he's got to be innocent. This

359
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,399
Speaker 4: is a fine upstanding member of our church. Presbyterians are like, no,

360
00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,240
Speaker 4: it's got to be him. And at first I was like, well,

361
00:19:58,240 --> 00:19:59,800
Speaker 4: why would it be the state senator? None of this

362
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,399
Speaker 4: makes sense. There were a couple of big things that

363
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,560
Speaker 4: made people believe that he could be the guy. Yeah.

364
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,040
Speaker 4: Joe Moore worked for him for seven years and was

365
00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:14,600
Speaker 4: one of his best salesman on his farm equipment team.

366
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:19,679
Speaker 4: And apparently he left in nineteen oh seven, and was

367
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,240
Speaker 4: not too happy with the work hours, which were sixteen

368
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:23,520
Speaker 4: hour days, six days a week.

369
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,040
Speaker 3: Who would be it's like us.

370
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,600
Speaker 4: And then set up a rival business and even took

371
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,159
Speaker 4: one of the clients, the John Deere company.

372
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:34,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a big one, I'm sure, so big

373
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:41,000
Speaker 1: that when Sarah Peckham called Joe Moore's employee to tell

374
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,040
Speaker 1: him the news. Yeah, Joe Moore's employee called the John

375
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:45,800
Speaker 1: Deere people in Omaha to let them know.

376
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 4: Oh sure, they.

377
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,240
Speaker 1: Were like the third people called after the bodies were discovered.

378
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:52,680
Speaker 4: So he takes John Deere with him. So this set

379
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:59,320
Speaker 4: up an obvious rivalry and worse than that apparently. And

380
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,159
Speaker 4: I don't know if this is super confirmed, but at

381
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 4: least the rumor was that Joe Moore had slept with

382
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:07,400
Speaker 4: Jones's daughter in law.

383
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:09,880
Speaker 1: From what I understand, beyond a shadow of a doubt,

384
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,000
Speaker 1: that's that's understood.

385
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:11,880
Speaker 3: Is true?

386
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,560
Speaker 4: That's true? So such with his daughter in law, who

387
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:18,119
Speaker 4: apparently kind of had several affairs in town and was

388
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:19,880
Speaker 4: not very discreet.

389
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, apparently, according to Mike Dashitt Smithsonian, she used to

390
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:30,040
Speaker 1: set up her her meet and greets over the phone.

391
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,879
Speaker 1: Oh that's right, over the phone. And this was at

392
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,280
Speaker 1: a time when there was a switchboard operator running the

393
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,600
Speaker 1: phones in the town. Ye sat there and listen. Yeah,

394
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,639
Speaker 1: and this lady obviously didn't care. So apparently it was

395
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,159
Speaker 1: pretty well known that that Joe Moore had had an

396
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,840
Speaker 1: affair with F. F. Jones's daughter in law, which is huge.

397
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 1: She put those two things together. Friends, the fact that

398
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 1: apparently they used to cross to the other side of

399
00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:01,719
Speaker 1: the street to keep from from from encountering one another. Yeah,

400
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,120
Speaker 1: that's a big deal in that town. In a small town, right,

401
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,440
Speaker 1: So yeah, suspicion fell onto Ff apparently from what I understand,

402
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,320
Speaker 1: within a couple hours of the bodies being discovered.

403
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, and suspicion not that he may have done it,

404
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 4: that Jones was actually the killer, but maybe Jones because

405
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,439
Speaker 4: he was fifty seven years old and probably had some

406
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 4: pretty good money.

407
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:23,679
Speaker 3: Clearly, Oh yeah, he was wealthy.

408
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,960
Speaker 1: He was building a bank, overseeing his new bank being

409
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:28,679
Speaker 1: built when he got the news of the bodies.

410
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 4: When you're building the bank, you're rolling in it. Yeah,

411
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,199
Speaker 4: So everyone thought that he probably hired somebody out to

412
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:38,440
Speaker 4: kill him, and there was a very the Burns Detective Agency,

413
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 4: there was a detective named James Wilkerson, who said, you

414
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 4: know what, I think you're right. I think he hired someone.

415
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 4: I think that man's name was William Mansfield.

416
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:51,719
Speaker 1: William Blackie Mansfield. It was already, No, he wasn't already.

417
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,640
Speaker 1: He would later be, I believe, convicted of an axe

418
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 1: murder himself.

419
00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, which is probably one of the chief reasons he

420
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 4: was suspect.

421
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,119
Speaker 1: Well, no, that came a couple of years after. I

422
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,400
Speaker 1: believe that was nineteen fourteen or fifteen, that he murdered

423
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 1: his wife, her parents, and their their child, his cholcold

424
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:12,560
Speaker 1: with an axe.

425
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, the guy was a bad dude.

426
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 1: But there was one problem with James Wilkerson's theory. Blackie

427
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 1: Mansfield had an air tight alibi. He was in Illinois,

428
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 1: hundreds of miles away when the crimes occurred. Not only

429
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 1: did the foreman vouch for him, but the payroll record

430
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 1: showed very clearly that he had not been in Veliska

431
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 1: that day and couldn't have done it.

432
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, so he was exonerated. But a lot of townspeople

433
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 4: still thought that that. You know how it was back

434
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 4: then and still is today to a certain.

435
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 1: Degree, sure, especially in a small town.

436
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, people were convinced that he was the guy, and

437
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 4: a lot of people probably went to their graves thinking that.

438
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,639
Speaker 1: So even though Chuck that Mansfield was exonerated, and like

439
00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 1: you said, a lot of people thought that Jones Ffjes

440
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 1: apparently went by ff did have something to do with it.

441
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 1: The still injured girl's father and Ross Moore, Joe Moore's brother,

442
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 1: both thought F. F. Jones was behind this, and and

443
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,640
Speaker 1: Wilkinson made it like his personal mission to take Jones

444
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: down and apparently ruined his political career cost him reelection

445
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:22,399
Speaker 1: to the state Senate.

446
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 4: I would think that probably happened anyway, just from suspicion.

447
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: But maybe, but I think like there's something between townspeople

448
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 1: suspecting you and a detective like bringing evidence against you

449
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 1: and getting a grand jury to indict you.

450
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 4: It was like the good old days when you could

451
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 4: be suspected of an ex murder and still win a

452
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 4: Senate seat.

453
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:47,199
Speaker 1: Right exactly the U. But Jones he didn't win re

454
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:52,439
Speaker 1: election and uh yeah, apparently their dying day, some people

455
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 1: assumed that it was him behind it.

456
00:24:55,240 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 4: Another candidate candidate suspect, sure, candidate, it's not the right word.

457
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 4: Lynn George, Jacqueline Kelly, the man with four names.

458
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 1: He went by George Kelly though.

459
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 4: He was an Englishman, which was probably a little weird

460
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 4: at the time. Sure be living there.

461
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 1: No one had ever seen an Englishman in Iowa.

462
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 4: Maybe he was a preacher though, and it says in

463
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:26,239
Speaker 4: this Smithsonian article a known sexual deviant. He definitely had

464
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,239
Speaker 4: some mental health problems. But there are some things in

465
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 4: his case where it sort of were suspicious, and others

466
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,400
Speaker 4: that made him not a great suspect, one of which

467
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 4: he was a little guy. He was five to one,

468
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 4: one hundred and nineteen pounds, so maybe not the best suspect.

469
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: For swinging an axe like that.

470
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, although you know he could have been strong

471
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 4: as an ox. You never know. Sure, those little guys,

472
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 4: you know, Yeah, but.

473
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 1: They're usually good with like jiu jitsu sleeper holes rather

474
00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: than axe swinging. You know, they just scramble up on

475
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 1: before you know what. Their legs are around your neck

476
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 1: and you're losing content.

477
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 4: Yea, their thumbs are in your eyeballs, right, that kind

478
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 4: of thing, right, Yeah, so fair enough. But he was

479
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 4: left handed, and the corner Linquist did say that, you know,

480
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 4: from their analysis, as rudimentary as that might be. In

481
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 4: nineteen twelve that could probably at least determine that it

482
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 4: was a left handed assailant.

483
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,880
Speaker 1: From the blood spatter. I believe, yeah, on the walls.

484
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 3: It's good.

485
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 4: Good for them for being that advance.

486
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 1: So there were some other things that that implicated George Kelly. One,

487
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 1: he was in Velliska. He was a traveling preacher. He

488
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: and his wife toured around and they were in Valliska.

489
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: Then the day of the murder, they were actually at

490
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 1: the children's service.

491
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, that the that.

492
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 1: The Moors and the Stillingery girls were at. Again, this

493
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: guy was a sex maniac, is what he was known as.

494
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, I kind of wonder about that, and I mean

495
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 4: he liked to have sex.

496
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 1: I guess there were He placed an ad and this

497
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: is in the nineteen tens. He placed add in the

498
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: Omaha World Herald looking for a stenographer who would be

499
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: willing to pose as a model. And when one, one

500
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: woman named Jessamine Hodgson, replied to his ad, he sent

501
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: her a letter. And apparently he's quite lude, so much

502
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,959
Speaker 1: so that the court that heard the case against him

503
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: said that it was so obscene, leude, lascivious, and filthy

504
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,880
Speaker 1: as to be offensive to this honorable court and improper

505
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: to be spread upon the record thereof.

506
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 4: I really want to know what was in that left.

507
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 1: Well, one of the things was that the lady would

508
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: be required to type in the nude. Yeah, this is

509
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 1: the nineteen ten.

510
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 4: No, that's what I'm saying. I wonder how it would

511
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 4: be judged by today's standard.

512
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: Oh, although I mean by today's standard. If you sent

513
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 1: a potential job candidate a letter that said, oh, yeah,

514
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: going to require you to be typing in the nude, Yeah,

515
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:58,880
Speaker 1: you would get in some trouble for that.

516
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 4: Sure. I just I don't know that you would say

517
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 4: it was obscene Luden lasibe.

518
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: No, I'm with you.

519
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 4: They'd say that's kink.

520
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: But I think the okay. George Kelly was a kinky

521
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: traveling preacher who had his wife in tow and he

522
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: was in Viliska at the time.

523
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 4: Of the murders, and he left that next morning on

524
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 4: a train.

525
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: Right. But there was supposedly a witness that said that

526
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: he had a very incriminating statement when he got off

527
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: of that train that very morning.

528
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, he apparently referenced the murders. But he had left

529
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 4: town before they found out about the murders. But then

530
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 4: later on those people recanted those statements.

531
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: Correct, right, So when when Frank Jones FF Jones had

532
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: a grand jury brought to hear evidence against him, he

533
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 1: was exonerated. Same thing. Not with George Kelly. Actually, I

534
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: should say he was actually the only person to ever

535
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: go to trial for these murders, and he was tried twice.

536
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: The first time the jury found eleven to one in

537
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: his favor. The second jury acquitted him entirely. The evidence

538
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: against him was just too flimsy, and it probably wasn't him.

539
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean the idea was they were like, he

540
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 4: was at that church service, he's a pervert. He saw

541
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,719
Speaker 4: these kids in the service, he went back and peeked

542
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 4: into their house and camped out in their barn. And

543
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 4: the evidence there was there were some hay bales in

544
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 4: the barn that had depressions as if someone had been

545
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 4: laying on them, and if you'd laid down in one

546
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 4: of them, there was a peep hole right there in

547
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 4: the barn where you could see the house. This is

548
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 4: all pretty flimsy.

549
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:39,959
Speaker 1: There was also, though, I think one of the reasons

550
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: why the case was brought against him. He was specifically

551
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 1: tried for the murder of Lena Stillingure. And that's noteworthy

552
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,719
Speaker 1: because although they don't say in the official court record

553
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: directly that she may have been sexually assaulted her, that

554
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: some sort of sex crime had been committed against her.

555
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 4: Yeah.

556
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: Supposedly she had been found with her night clothes hiked

557
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: up over her waist, like above her waist, her undergarments

558
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,479
Speaker 1: had been taken off in stuffed under the bed, and

559
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 1: then her her legs had been arranged so that her

560
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: genitalia was prominent.

561
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 3: Right.

562
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: That was done after she had been murdered. And I

563
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: think that's one of the reasons why they suspected George Kelly,

564
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 1: because to add a sexual dimension to this brutal murder,

565
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: they said, well, this guy's just just enough of a

566
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: sex maniac for that to be possible.

567
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh, I forgot about this fact though. He actually

568
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 4: returned a week later and posed as a Scotland yard

569
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 4: detective so he could get a tour of the house.

570
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: That is so George Kelly.

571
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 4: Well, it's definitely one of those things that makes you go,

572
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 4: wait a minute, return to the scene of the crime.

573
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 4: You lied to get in there and look at the house. Right,

574
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 4: But apparently everyone wanted to go look at the house.

575
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's and plus what's posing? You know, we've

576
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: seen so many like cartoony movies that like somebody gets

577
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: like the deer stalker hat and a pipe and says

578
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 1: they're from Scotland. Yard. Posing could be like somebody saying like, oh,

579
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: you must be from Scotland yards. Am I grunting in

580
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: the affirmative?

581
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's true.

582
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: I guess that technically constitutes posing in the real world.

583
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 4: I apparently signed a confession.

584
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that was a big one too.

585
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I mean the confession literally said I killed

586
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 4: the children upstairs first and the children downstairs last. I

587
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 4: knew God wanted me to do it this way. Slay

588
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 4: utterly came to mind, and I picked up the acts,

589
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 4: went into the house and killed them. But you know

590
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 4: he took it back later He's like, yeah, all that

591
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 4: very specific stuff I said about killing this family, I

592
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 4: didn't really do it.

593
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: So he was exonerated. So so far, the little town

594
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 1: of Veliska has looked around and said, we couldn't find

595
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: any tramps. So who's the person that hated Joe Moore

596
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: th most F. F. Jones, Well it wasn't him. Who's

597
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: the weirdest pervert we can find.

598
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 4: Who is in of the time, that Englishman George Kelly.

599
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: It wasn't him, So they didn't know. A lot of

600
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: people went to their graves dying, not knowing what happened.

601
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: And we still don't know what happened. But with the

602
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: hindsight of I guess, modern forensic techniques, modern profiling, and

603
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: the work of dedicated historians like Ed Epperley, we have

604
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: something of a clearer picture emerging. And that picture seems

605
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: to be centering on the serial killer.

606
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 4: We'll talk about that theory more right after this. All right,

607
00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 4: so we've ruled out these local your suspects local ish

608
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 4: I guess in Kelly's case, And now the modern take

609
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 4: on this is that this was a serial killer because

610
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 4: in nineteen eleven, in nineteen twelve, there were a lot

611
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 4: of axe murders in the Midwest, at least ten, everywhere

612
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 4: from Colorado Springs to Ellsworth, Kansas. And many of them

613
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 4: had similar traits.

614
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, some very startlingly similar traits, right.

615
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 4: But not all of them. And some of them are

616
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 4: like and we'll go through these, but some are like, well,

617
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 4: in five of them, these same things happen and two

618
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 4: of them these same things happen, So it makes me

619
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 4: wonder if it wasn't if they're kind of grouping too

620
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 4: many of these together.

621
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: This does Ed Epperley actually whittles it down to five,

622
00:33:58,480 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 1: including Valliska.

623
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 4: I thought three was at five.

624
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: Five, So there's three that happened in nineteen eleven. There

625
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: was one that happened in Colorado Springs, Colorado that supposedly

626
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: kicked the whole thing off, yeah, followed by Mammoth and

627
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: Illinois I forgot the s is silent, right, yeah, and

628
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: then Ellsworth, Kansas. Then there was one in Paola, Kansas,

629
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: and then the last one in Valliska. And those five

630
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: crimes have some similarities that make them really really suspicious.

631
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: That the idea of just like five different people or

632
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 1: even a couple of different people separately committing these crimes,

633
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 1: and as Ed Eppersley puts it, kind of dismissively the

634
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:49,320
Speaker 1: idea that these were local vendettas or you know, that

635
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 1: that people were.

636
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 4: Like something, right, Yeah.

637
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: That's not what these these crimes reflect at all. They

638
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: reflect the work of a like just a straight up

639
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: nut job psychopath who are few and far between. So

640
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: the fact that these things occurred between October of nineteen

641
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 1: eleven and June of nineteen twelve suggests strongly that there

642
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 1: was one person doing them.

643
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, there was the final one in Columbia, Missouri

644
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 4: in December nineteen twelve, and one of the theories is

645
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 4: that a man named Henry Lee Moore killed Georgia Moore

646
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,280
Speaker 4: in Columbia, Missouri, who was his mother? Ye, Mary Wilson,

647
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 4: So is that the guy? No, it would be weird

648
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 4: to commit a series of murders and then finish up

649
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 4: with your own family, right, Usually it's the other way around.

650
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, So, like, if you're going to go off

651
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 1: on a killing spree, usually start you practice on your

652
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: family first. Yeah, you get a feel for it, right.

653
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 1: This guy, Henry Lee Moore, aside from having three three names,

654
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 1: is not a good suspect for the serial killer, right.

655
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 1: He apparently wanted the deeds to his family house. And

656
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 1: like you said, it's very rare for a serial killer

657
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 1: to go back.

658
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 2: You know.

659
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 4: The deal with the three names. They don't all have

660
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 4: three names.

661
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: No, I know, but so many of them do.

662
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 4: Well, No, the news reports it that way to distinguish them.

663
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 4: For every other Henry more in the world. So like

664
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 4: everyone's always like serial killers have three names. No, they're

665
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:27,919
Speaker 4: just reported that way.

666
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:32,320
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Yeah, I love him when things are just explained. Yeah,

667
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,879
Speaker 1: I wrapped up in a nice little bow. Thanks for that.

668
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 4: Like Lee Harvey Oswald, he I think went by Lee Oswald.

669
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 1: I think you're right.

670
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 4: Yeah.

671
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

672
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 4: So if anyone ever writes a story about Charles Wayne Bryant,

673
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 4: we're in trouble.

674
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm in trouble. No, I would kill you,

675
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 1: thanks man, I wouldn't kill you either.

676
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 3: Hey, you want to.

677
00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 4: Shake on it? Jerry witnessed.

678
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: So the Henry Lee Moore thing, he's almost like a

679
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: red herring. Like a lot of people say, well, he

680
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 1: was the one. He was a serial killer behind it,

681
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 1: because the the serial murder started right after he got

682
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,359
Speaker 1: out of prison in Kansas, Yes, and then they ended

683
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,280
Speaker 1: right after he got caught in Columbia, Missouri with his family.

684
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean kind of makes sense, it does.

685
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 1: But that's where the whole thing really begins an end.

686
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 1: So a lot of people say, well, it wasn't Henry

687
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 1: ly more so, it wasn't a serial killing.

688
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 4: Well plus sorry, but his his killing his own family

689
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 4: was about obtaining the deeds to his family house.

690
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I was saying.

691
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 4: Oh so that was greed motivated, right, Okay.

692
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 1: Not a serial psychopathic, sex based serial killing spree. Right,

693
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:48,359
Speaker 1: this guy was just a jerk. So since Henry Lee

694
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: Moore is associated with the serial murder theory, once somebody

695
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,359
Speaker 1: then finds out that it wasn't Henry ly Moore, they

696
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 1: stopped thinking it was a serial murderer. Rightly says not

697
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 1: so fast. Wait, wait, wait, just because Henry Lee Moore's

698
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 1: out of the equation doesn't mean there's not a serial

699
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 1: killer involved. Yeah, He's like, consider the similarities between these

700
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: five cases, and they're they're they're pretty thick.

701
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:11,439
Speaker 3: Right.

702
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 1: In a couple of the cases, there were oil lamps

703
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: found where chimney. The chimneys were removed and set aside,

704
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: and the wicks were bent in half to keep the

705
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 1: light low.

706
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a big one.

707
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: Axes were used in four of the five, but he

708
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 1: says that's just probably a matter of convenience. A pipe

709
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 1: I think was used in the Mammoth, Illinois case, which

710
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: is again an implement of convenience too. Right, Sure, don't

711
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 1: have an axe, handy, go for a lead pipe.

712
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, he probably didn't bring that with you.

713
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: Right, there were tell them about the tell them about

714
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: the mirrors, Chuck.

715
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 4: Well, I mean at several of these places the mirrors

716
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 4: were covered up. I mean that's a big one. Yeah,

717
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 4: mirrors and windows. And in one of the places, the

718
00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 4: telephone was covered. And the thought there is is that,

719
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 4: like you said earlier, like they don't want the victims

720
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 4: to be watching them even after death, or to be

721
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 4: seen in the mirrors and windows being covered. But the phone,

722
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 4: apparently it was one of those old box phones on

723
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,879
Speaker 4: the wall that you crank, and it has the two

724
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 4: it sort of looks like a face right when you

725
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 4: look at it. It has like looks like two eyes

726
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 4: and a nose. And so the thought was that that

727
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 4: even looks like a face to the dranged serial killer.

728
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 4: So they'll cover that up as well, right, because nothing

729
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 4: else makes much sense. You know, you're not going to

730
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 4: in nineteen twelve, you're not getting phone calls after midnight.

731
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 4: You probably probably don't get more than a couple of

732
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 4: phone calls a week in nineteen.

733
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 1: Twelve, right, most people have phones.

734
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, And throwing a sheet over it wouldn't like disable

735
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 4: it anyway.

736
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:52,720
Speaker 1: No, there was another female victim, a young female victim

737
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 1: in Mammoth who was found basically the same way that

738
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:03,399
Speaker 1: Lena's still injury was found. Yeah, with her nightgown thrown

739
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: up over waist and her undergarments removed. And apparently there

740
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 1: was a similarity in I believe Mammoth in Valliska where

741
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: and one other town too where the killer went on

742
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 1: to try to kill again.

743
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, this was the most interesting to me.

744
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: Either successfully did kill again. There was one where he

745
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,919
Speaker 1: went to an adjacent house whose backyard connected the first

746
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,360
Speaker 1: murder house and then went in and killed another family

747
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 1: right afterwards.

748
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 4: That was Colorado Springs.

749
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 1: And then in Valliska, the telephone operator who was like

750
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,720
Speaker 1: sleeping in the telephone switchboard.

751
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 3: Headquarters because no calls were coming through.

752
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 1: She reported the door knob being tried about two hours

753
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 1: after the more house members were murdered.

754
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, like herd footsteps come up to the door, try

755
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 4: to open it, and then heard the footsteps leave. Yeah,

756
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 4: that's a little shaky. But the last one was the

757
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 4: one that kind of sent the chill up my spine.

758
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 4: It was the one in Kansas specifically, you said, Paola,

759
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:08,839
Speaker 4: I bet you there are people there laughing because it's

760
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 4: probably pronounced Paula or something probably, but who knows p

761
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 4: a a. Kansas, there was a second family, Missus Longmire,

762
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 4: the Longmere family. They were awaken she and her daughter

763
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 4: at about midnight to the sound of broken glass, went

764
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 4: downstairs and saw a dude in their dining room who

765
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 4: had just broken oil lamp chimney and then got the

766
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,359
Speaker 4: heck out of there through a window. They actually saw

767
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 4: a guy.

768
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 1: So think about that, Chuck, Think about that they saw

769
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 1: they woke up and saw the man who was about

770
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: to probably bludgeon them all to death with an axe,

771
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: and this probably leaving our house.

772
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 4: And these were all trained towns, so they were all

773
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 4: linked by train depots. So by all accounts, there was

774
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 4: a train going serial killer, uh for a couple of

775
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 4: years in the Midwest. Yeah, killing people hopping trains. Never

776
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 4: ever caught in that nuts.

777
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 1: It is nuts, and that the Veliska axe murders were

778
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: probably one of his crazy but we'll never know, no.

779
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 1: You know, when you say stuff like that, or when

780
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: you see stuff like that in print too, like we'll

781
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: never know who it was, it makes you wonder, like

782
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 1: what kind of technology are we going to have in

783
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 1: the future, like will we never know or are we

784
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: going to come up with something one day where we're like,

785
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: oh it was this guy. Yeah, like now we know,

786
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:39,760
Speaker 1: you know who who knows the future knows? That's who knows.

787
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 4: We should do one on Ed Geen. Okay, that's like

788
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:45,760
Speaker 4: kind of one of the big big ones we haven't covered.

789
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 1: Okay, I got a couple more too. Oh yeah, I

790
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,720
Speaker 1: don't want to I don't want to even tease him yet. Okay, okay,

791
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 1: true crime.

792
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 4: Maybe we'll do one and uh like this October. Okay,

793
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,360
Speaker 4: we used to do multiple kind of creepy uppisodes.

794
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 1: I think we did last time too was October.

795
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:08,760
Speaker 4: Yea, all right, we'll look forward to another ghoulish serial

796
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 4: killer type thing.

797
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah we did hinter Kfech I think was that

798
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 1: last look? I think so?

799
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 3: Ye Okay.

800
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 1: Uh. If you want to know more about the Veliska

801
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:20,839
Speaker 1: X murders, well again strongly recommend you go look up

802
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: ed Epperley. You can read the Smithsonian article The X

803
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: Murder Who Got Away, which is great. Uh. And there

804
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: were plenty of other articles that we relied on that

805
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 1: we love.

806
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 3: Thank you for those.

807
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 1: In the meantime, you can also hang out with us

808
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: on how stuff works dot com and our famous search bar. Instance.

809
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 1: I said search bar got it in there. It's un

810
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:41,359
Speaker 1: for listener mail.

811
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 4: Hey, guys love the show, and now I have even

812
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 4: more reason to promote your podcast to everyone I know.

813
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 4: I work in a small family business with my cousin.

814
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:55,320
Speaker 4: In this previous January, started experiencing severe gastro intestinal issues.

815
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 1: Oh I love this email.

816
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 4: Yeah remember this one. It was like from yesterday.

817
00:43:59,560 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 1: Yeah.

818
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 4: I won't go into detail, but for months afterward, he

819
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,359
Speaker 4: saw specialists after specialists hoping to find out the root.

820
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 4: Tested for Crone's ulcers, ibs, everything under the sun, none

821
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 4: of which had a positive result or diagnosis. Couldn't focus

822
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 4: on anything, no energy, took a ton of time away

823
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 4: from work. He felt totally lost and even sought the

824
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 4: help of a psychologist because of his diminished work ethic

825
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,240
Speaker 4: deteriorating quality of life. You see where this is going people,

826
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 4: I think listeners might know. And he was Southern one

827
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 4: day last month he was Southern. Actually, he came in

828
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 4: after a doctor's appointment, said he developed an iron deficient

829
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 4: anemia to add to his list of issues. At first,

830
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 4: it sounded disconnected until and I kid you, this is

831
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,959
Speaker 4: an all caps I kid you not Josh and Chuck.

832
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 4: I was listening to your Hookworm episode that day, man,

833
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 4: when he got to the part about the aggressive iron

834
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 4: deficient anemia, I lost my mind. I looked up hookworm

835
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 4: infection symptoms, brought it to my cousin and he had

836
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 4: every last symptom his doctor prescribed to medication and he

837
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 4: is currently being de wormed. From the first day he

838
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 4: started his treatment, he had a noticeable increase in both

839
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 4: mood and energy. I don't know how these symptoms could

840
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 4: have slipped by a half dozen GPS and specialists, But

841
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 4: I truly can't thank you both enough for your podcast

842
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 4: and his wide range of topics. That is, James and

843
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 4: sat Pete Florida.

844
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 1: That is so awesome, man, dude, haad hookworm. Can you

845
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 1: believe it? Then? And thank you James, and.

846
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 4: Good luck to you cousin.

847
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 1: Way to go for being so smart to connect the

848
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: dots too.

849
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,800
Speaker 4: I think your cousin owes you a pizza or a beer.

850
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 3: Or whatever you may be both.

851
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, trip to Chuck e cheese drunk if you want

852
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 1: to get in touch of this and tell us an

853
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 1: amazing story like James did. You can tweet to us

854
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 1: I'm at Joshum Clark and SYSK Podcast, Chuck's at Charles W.

855
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:57,720
Speaker 1: Chuck Bryant and Stuff you Should Know on Facebook, and

856
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: you can send us all an email, including Jerry at

857
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 1: Stuff Podcast at how stuffworks dot com, and as always,

858
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 1: join us at home on the web Stuffishould Know dot com.

859
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 2: For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit

860
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 2: HowStuffWorks dot com