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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. It's Sunday, September fourteenth, and we

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Speaker 2: hope you had an incredible weekend. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here

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Speaker 2: with Courtney Armstrong and Body Movin.

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Speaker 3: Is back with us. So the band is back together. Body.

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Speaker 4: We hope you had a great break I did. It

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Speaker 4: was wonderful. Thank you. Yes, I missed you guys though

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Speaker 4: right at you, we missed you too well.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back, you know, listen just in time for Scientific

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Speaker 2: Sunday with the great Joseph Scott Morgan, fresh back from

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Speaker 2: Crime Con where he appeared five times. I might am

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Speaker 2: hell yeah, So he'll be filling us in and all

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Speaker 2: on that. Joseph Scott Morgan, of course, the forensics expert

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Speaker 2: and host of the hit podcast Body Bags. And listen

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Speaker 2: as much as we want to all kind of hang

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Speaker 2: and talk about our weekend, we have stack mat of

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Speaker 2: headlines to get to. And of course there have been

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Speaker 2: some new developments in the Charlie Hirk assassination. We're going

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Speaker 2: to be going through some of the forensics with Joseph

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Speaker 2: specifically as we know it as of tonight, obviously an

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Speaker 2: unfolding situation, as well of several other cases that Joseph

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Speaker 2: has been talking about for a while now. So I'm

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Speaker 2: afraid to even tease them, Joseph, because sometimes we tease

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Speaker 2: something and then we don't even get to it.

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Speaker 3: It's a great.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, we're very We're very data heavy group, aren't we.

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Speaker 3: Lady, Yes, we are.

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Speaker 5: We always always trying to bring the news and the

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Speaker 5: truth exactly.

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Speaker 2: That's right, by the way, the truth in science will

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Speaker 2: set you free.

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Speaker 3: Like let that be heard loud and clear.

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Speaker 2: Can we add a dash of love and a little

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Speaker 2: bit of light and we are off to the races.

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Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong, where should we begin?

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Speaker 6: Well, I think we begin with the details of what

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Speaker 6: is known in the Charlie Kirk assassination, which, as to

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Speaker 6: underline what you said, everything is evolving. However, since we

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Speaker 6: were last on air, Tyler Robinson, who's a twenty two

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Speaker 6: year old native of Utah. He's in custody as the

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Speaker 6: sniper assassin of conservative political influencer Charlie Kirk. Investigators are

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Speaker 6: still piecing together a motive there has I can't even

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Speaker 6: bring to mind another case that so many different points

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Speaker 6: of view are being put out there, and a lot

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Speaker 6: of them don't have the facts behind them, So we're

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Speaker 6: going to stick to just the facts. Charlie Kirk, of course,

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Speaker 6: was the founder of Turning Point USA, and he was

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Speaker 6: at a speaking event at Utah Valley University. This was

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Speaker 6: on September tenth. Tyler Robinson, the suspect has been identified.

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Speaker 6: It was facial recognition and he was ultimately persuaded to

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Speaker 6: surrender by his father. So he right now is being

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Speaker 6: held without bail. Prosecutors are preparing formal charges, and authorities

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Speaker 6: are calling it a politically motivated killing.

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Speaker 3: So those are some of the facts. And then, Joseph,

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Speaker 3: I wanted to ask you.

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Speaker 6: I understand that the gun authorities say that was used

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Speaker 6: to assassinate Charlie Kirk was a Mauser ninety eight.

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Speaker 3: Could you give us a little more information.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Mauser. Mauser's an old company sexually an Austrian company,

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Speaker 5: and they've been around even pre dating I think World

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Speaker 5: War One. But Mauser itself was as far as the

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Speaker 5: shoulder fired rifle was the standard issue in the German

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Speaker 5: forces in World War One, World War two bolt action rifle,

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Speaker 5: and there's been several iterations of it along the way.

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Speaker 5: It's kind of developed. It fires what's referred to as

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Speaker 5: a thirty six round, which merely means that it's a

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Speaker 5: thirty caliber round that was developed in nineteen o six.

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Speaker 5: It's a supersonic round. I think it's three thousand feet

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Speaker 5: per second, the same travel this round travel. So when

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Speaker 5: if you've listened to the recording, you can hear that

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Speaker 5: distinctive crack that's made. And the most significant thing for

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Speaker 5: me as a forensics guy is that there's only one

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Speaker 5: report that's it. You know, many of these shooting events

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Speaker 5: that we've covered over the last few years, you hear

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Speaker 5: Rett Tet or Tat got single shot, and that either

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Speaker 5: tells you one or two things. Either the person was

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Speaker 5: very practiced at what they were doing and that it's

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Speaker 5: not a semi automatic weapon perhaps, or they were very

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Speaker 5: patient with semi automatic. Or it's a bolt action, which

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Speaker 5: means that you have to manually recycle that weapon, you know,

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Speaker 5: pull up the bolt, pull it back, drive it forward.

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Speaker 5: You've objected. The spent round and live rounds are still

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Speaker 5: in the Dwelling magazine. But interestingly enough, and I have

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Speaker 5: yet to come across a case like this, the spent

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Speaker 5: casing was not ejected when the weapon was found, and

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Speaker 5: that's that's a significant forensic import.

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Speaker 3: What are the implications. Yeah, I don't under I don't

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Speaker 3: understand guns well enough to.

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Speaker 5: Well the fact that you can well the fact that

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Speaker 5: you have this weapon, and that you can marry up

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Speaker 5: any recovered bits of the projectile that brought about Charlie

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Speaker 5: Kirk's death. I don't know at this point if the

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Speaker 5: round was intact, it may have fragmented. They do have

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Speaker 5: a tendency to do that. My suspicion is is that

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Speaker 5: they can take this rifle. If they collect even the

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Speaker 5: smallest bits that have rifling on them, they can take

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Speaker 5: this weapon and run the same kind of ammunition through

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Speaker 5: it and get ballastic matches on this. That's the significance

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Speaker 5: of having the weapon, you know in this particular case,

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Speaker 5: which is you know, And then not to mention the

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Speaker 5: physical evidence that they say that they have where these

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Speaker 5: engravings or writings they've used the term engraving on the

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Speaker 5: rounds themselves and forensically. What's kind of intriguing about that

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Speaker 5: is that they're going to call upon a practice in

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Speaker 5: forensic science. You don't hear a lot about much anymore.

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Speaker 5: They're still out there and they're still working hard. That's

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Speaker 5: handwriting examiners where they can get exemplars of the suspects

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Speaker 5: writing either in life or say, write this down, and

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Speaker 5: then they try to marry that up with a form

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Speaker 5: the function of the letters that are on these casings

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Speaker 5: to see if maybe he did it or somebody else

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Speaker 5: did it, you know that a forensic writing expert can

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Speaker 5: come up with. You know, that's just a small taste

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Speaker 5: of the of the forensics. It's quite extensive.

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Speaker 2: Actually, we saw this with the Luigi Mangioni case, right,

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Speaker 2: so Mangione, Mangioni, whichever it is, but these casings right

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Speaker 2: having significance and obviously their intention was to give a message,

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Speaker 2: and we're seeing this now obviously in this case as well.

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Speaker 2: Does that like tip anybody off that the intention is

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Speaker 2: to be caught, right because this is true messages or

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Speaker 2: is that just something that maybe somebody would do just

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Speaker 2: because they're trying to save that or is it a

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Speaker 2: copycat kind of situation.

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Speaker 5: I think it's actually quite fascinating stuff. I hadn't even

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Speaker 5: thought about that, because why would you write something on

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Speaker 5: a casing that you did not intend for someone to read.

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Speaker 5: It's like writing a book and setting it on fire. Correct,

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Speaker 5: you know, what would be the purpose if there's any

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Speaker 5: kind of narrative that you're trying to get out there,

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Speaker 5: kind of sponsoraling as well, is that he could have

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Speaker 5: fired these weapons are these rounds, and you know, kind

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Speaker 5: of randomly positive them, you know along the way. I

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Speaker 5: got to tell you at the end of the day, guys,

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Speaker 5: we're just based upon the position from which this guy

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Speaker 5: allegedly fired from. We're very fortunate no one else was killed,

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Speaker 5: because that really passed right over the top of hundreds

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Speaker 5: of people's heads to get through that small space and

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Speaker 5: at two hundred yards at small space above the top

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Speaker 5: of their heads and the base of that that canopy.

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Speaker 5: You know, when you're looking at that at two hundred yards,

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Speaker 5: it becomes very tiny, that little window.

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Speaker 4: Forgive me, I was on vacation and I just got back.

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Speaker 4: Did you say two hundred yards?

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Speaker 5: That's what the authorities, that's the number about it that

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Speaker 5: they keep putting out there two hundred yards yards two

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Speaker 5: hundred yards, which I got to tell you, this is

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Speaker 5: a allegedly allegedly this mouser's a scoped weapon. That's not

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Speaker 5: a real heavy lift at two hundred yards, just way

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Speaker 5: back when dinosaurs roam the earth, and I was in

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Speaker 5: going through the army training with an iron with an

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Speaker 5: iron sight weapon by the way, no optics. We had

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Speaker 5: to fire out to three hundred yards with an iron.

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Speaker 5: So it's not a real heavy lift. And if you

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Speaker 5: have any minimal experience with this, and this is a

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Speaker 5: robust weapon, make no mistake, this is not something that's

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Speaker 5: easily hidden. It's hard to collapse this thing. He would

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Speaker 5: have had to have had perhaps practice with. I don't know.

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Speaker 5: I'm hoping we're going to find out a lot more

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Speaker 5: of these details.

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Speaker 3: Though, No can I ask a dumb question. There are

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Speaker 3: some questions this rifle. Does it have like a kickback

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Speaker 3: when you fire it? Does it? Does he have a

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Speaker 3: black eye?

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Speaker 5: No? No, no, no, no, I don't know. I haven't

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Speaker 5: seen in at least the mugs that I saw, you didn't.

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Speaker 5: And again, if you have experience, you know where where

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Speaker 5: your ocular placement is relative to the backside of that ends.

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Speaker 5: It's only people that you know are fool hardy with

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Speaker 5: scoped weapons that get black eyes.

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Speaker 4: You have to be very well, well, that does that tell

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Speaker 4: us he has experienced with.

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Speaker 5: Well, it could minimum. I mean, all you have to

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Speaker 5: do is, you know, you can see the fire and

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Speaker 5: follies that are on on YouTube and you can see

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Speaker 5: how people will hand high powered weapons over the people

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Speaker 5: that have no experience and they get scope in the

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Speaker 5: eye or you know, get their lip busted with it.

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Speaker 5: But this guy probably has at least minimal experience with it.

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Speaker 4: This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm body movin.

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Speaker 4: I am back from vacation and I am so glad

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Speaker 4: to be welcomed back by Stephanie Decker and Courtney Armstrong

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Speaker 4: and we are joined by the wonderful Joseph Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 4: And we're right in the middle of talking about some

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Speaker 4: of the really important details friends in the forensics evidence

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Speaker 4: in the murder or the assassination I should say of

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Speaker 4: political activist Charlie Kirk. And we're talking about the bullets

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Speaker 4: and Joseph, you mentioned the engravings or the handwriting on

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Speaker 4: the bullets. How big are these thirty caliber bullets, Are

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Speaker 4: they big enough to be written on? And everything like that?

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Speaker 5: Okay, we have to break this down because with live cartridges,

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Speaker 5: this car entirety the car casing, so well, you have casing,

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Speaker 5: then you have the live cartridge and then projectile, so

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Speaker 5: it's several components. The casing itself is what this is

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Speaker 5: written on. So if the round is thirty caliber that

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Speaker 5: comes from British standard measurement. When you hear caliber as

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Speaker 5: opposed to millimeters, you're talking about three tenths of an

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Speaker 5: inch in diameter with the thirty cow. You expand that

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Speaker 5: out with casing of the and you've got more than

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Speaker 5: enough room to scribble something along the way. It's rather

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Speaker 5: I don't know, it'd be hard to I wouldn't want

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Speaker 5: to say. I'm sure that listeners can look this up,

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Speaker 5: but it's several inches in length from the base of

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Speaker 5: the cartridge to the to the nose of the projectile.

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Speaker 5: They just say that it was written I think, alongside

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Speaker 5: the casing. And they've used the term again engraving, which

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Speaker 5: is interesting to me because that means that some other

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Speaker 5: kind of instrument is used.

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean, like I have I'm really into three

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Speaker 4: D printing and they have laser engravings built into them.

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Speaker 3: Now, so you can do this in your living room.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you know you.

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Speaker 3: Can if needed.

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Speaker 4: And speaking of three D printing and Luigi, like Luigi

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Speaker 4: printed is on gun, that's exactly. I mean, this can

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Speaker 4: all be done from your kitchen.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and it can. And you know, going back years

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Speaker 5: and years in the Morgue, we use we use what

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Speaker 5: are called diamond pencils, and that is to write on

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Speaker 5: the base of a projectile, like if you recover the

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Speaker 5: projectile out of the body, you put like JM for

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Speaker 5: Joseph Morgan. So when it goes to trial and the dominitives,

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Speaker 5: you know, work really well as well. I don't know.

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Speaker 5: I mean, for all I know, he took a stone

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Speaker 5: and scratched it out. Yeah, and who really knows what

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Speaker 5: engraving means, right, you know, because I can go, I've

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Speaker 5: got a great jeweler here, take all my wife's stuff

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Speaker 5: to trust them. They've got a great engraving thing there.

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Speaker 5: You wouldn't want me to handle it. But you know,

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Speaker 5: they do have engravers and so I don't know what

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Speaker 5: that means. It's kind of it's kind of vague.

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Speaker 6: Well, we know, that some of the phrases that were

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Speaker 6: written on the casings, and they include if you read

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Speaker 6: this you are gay, LMAO, hey fascist patch and lyrics

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Speaker 6: from the song belichow.

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Speaker 4: So, I want to talk about the notices bulges. Oh

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Speaker 4: woh what's this that is chronically online terminology?

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Speaker 3: That is the OWO.

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Speaker 4: You have to imagine the o's are eyeballs, and the

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Speaker 4: w is like.

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Speaker 3: The mouth theory.

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Speaker 4: It's in a mote exactly, and notices bulges that's a

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Speaker 4: furrery term or the whole thing is very furrey to me,

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Speaker 4: Like it's I don't.

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Speaker 6: Know, furrey people who are having sex with people and no, wait, I.

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Speaker 4: Know it's they're just people who like identify as you know,

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Speaker 4: they put on costumes. They're not having sex with animals

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Speaker 4: or anything like that.

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Speaker 3: They're animals.

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Speaker 2: I saw my v H one show I love It's

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Speaker 2: like sometimes.

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Speaker 4: They're in a lite and this is not Listen. I

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Speaker 4: don't want the furries to come after me. I'm on

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Speaker 4: your side, like I love for I'm not you know

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Speaker 4: what I mean, Like, it's just very the o w O.

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Speaker 3: That's what I meant is very furry.

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Speaker 4: It just feels very furree to me, I don't know,

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Speaker 4: and the whole like if you if you read these

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Speaker 4: you are gay L M A O. It's so chronically

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Speaker 4: online to me, so chronically online to me, I don't know.

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Speaker 4: This guy was online, and maybe he was radicalized online.

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Speaker 4: I'm not sure that he was online, and he was

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Speaker 4: online a lot. I think that his forensically speaking, I

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Speaker 4: think that the forensics download of his computer and cell

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Speaker 4: phone on are going to be very interesting.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, most definitely.

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Speaker 3: Oh well, I can't wait to see what we're gonna learn.

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Speaker 2: Well, I say, a lot of it will be unfolding

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Speaker 2: this week. And listen, this story continues to change, and

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Speaker 2: as we've heard even earlier, you know at the top

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Speaker 2: of the show, there have been some takebacks, so we're

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Speaker 2: trying not to repeat misinformation.

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Speaker 3: We'll stick around.

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Speaker 4: We're going to be deep dying being into the mysterious

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Speaker 4: death of Noah Prescrove with Joseph breaking down why some

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Speaker 4: call it a cover up. Keep it right here, True

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Speaker 4: crime tonight. We're talking true crime all the time.

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Speaker 3: And it's of course it's scientific Sunday.

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Speaker 2: So Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert and host of the

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Speaker 2: hit podcast Body Bags, is back with us breaking down

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Speaker 2: some of the forensics regarding the recent assassination of Charlie Kirk.

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Speaker 2: We were just talking about sort of the engravings as

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Speaker 2: it's being said in these casings, and also now where

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Speaker 2: the gun.

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Speaker 3: Itself was left.

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Speaker 2: I have to ask you, so all we really know

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Speaker 2: is that this gun was found in a field, wrapped

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Speaker 2: in a towel, and just by based on your description,

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Speaker 2: that gun itself is very, very big. It's like four

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Speaker 2: feet four and a half feet even, right, So there

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Speaker 2: were reports that maybe he was walking with it in

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Speaker 2: that pants and was sort of therefore limping a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Other reports have said that it was dismantled and put

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Speaker 2: together prior to shooting.

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Speaker 3: What happened?

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Speaker 2: Why would you leave it in the grass wrapped in

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Speaker 2: a towel? You know that's going to be such a

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Speaker 2: huge area for authorities.

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Speaker 3: Was he looking to be caught?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, a fascinating, really fascinating question, because the individual that

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Speaker 5: did this is not doing much to hide themselves, which

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Speaker 5: is kind of odd you think about it. When you

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Speaker 5: think about it from a perspective of trying to get

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Speaker 5: away with a very public assassination. That's why each one

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Speaker 5: of the scenes that are involved in this, including where

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Speaker 5: the weapon is actually deposited, are significant and just a

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Speaker 5: little primary real quick on crime scene investigation. In our world,

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Speaker 5: in forensics, we have what's referred to as the primary scene,

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Speaker 5: and in this case, that would be where Charlie died

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Speaker 5: I think died. You know, he hit the ground right there.

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Speaker 5: That's primary because that's where the body was. Secondary, you

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Speaker 5: got kind of a neck and neck race. You've got

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Speaker 5: the what they have identified is the place where the shooting,

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Speaker 5: where the shooter was saw fascinating image that they took

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Speaker 5: with crime scene markers up there. The roof is covered

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Speaker 5: in gravel. You can actually see where the gravel is

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Speaker 5: depressed in the shape of a body, so you know,

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Speaker 5: you can appreciate like shoulders, elbows, you know that sort

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Speaker 5: of thing, and then you can kind of see over

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Speaker 5: the ledge. The POV from there is down and this

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Speaker 5: is a downward if if what they're saying is accurate,

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Speaker 5: it's a downward shot about two hundred yards out for

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Speaker 5: a range kind of a you know it's going to say,

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Speaker 5: on a flat trajectory. Then you have that scene which

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Speaker 5: is going to you can harvest all kinds of stuff

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Speaker 5: in there. If he was up there for a protracted

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Speaker 5: period of time. I thought one of my thoughts was,

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Speaker 5: how are you going to get to that level without

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Speaker 5: being seen with this weapon unless you broke it down,

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Speaker 5: unless you went up there after hours, put it up there,

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Speaker 5: way to come back again. That goes to scheduling. You're

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Speaker 5: familiar with the victims schedule, where they're going to be,

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Speaker 5: what time of day they're going to be, you know,

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Speaker 5: when to get up there, when it's going to kick off.

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Speaker 5: Then you think about where the weapon was deposited. Anything

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Speaker 5: is game out there, so around the area talked about

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Speaker 5: kind of a brushy area, maybe bushes, trees, that sort

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Speaker 5: of thing. I think it's kind of part of campus,

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Speaker 5: but not really part of campus. A lot of campus's

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Speaker 5: mind does have had like a meditation garden. It's got

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Speaker 5: trees all around it and that sort of thing. And

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Speaker 5: then where was he headed? You know, because there's CCTV views,

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Speaker 5: that would be what's referred to probably as a tertiary scene,

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Speaker 5: so primary secondary tertiary. Was he going to a dwelling

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Speaker 5: or was he going to a car? You know they've

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Speaker 5: talked about a lot about a church parking lot. Did

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Speaker 5: he go and get in a car, there was there

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Speaker 5: somebody there to pick him up. What kind of CCTV

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Speaker 5: is there there? And then wherever his domicile is, that's

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Speaker 5: also a tertiary scene. You and I can tell you

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Speaker 5: that if I rolled up down there, probably state police

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Speaker 5: crimising people down there to see his domicile. They went

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Speaker 5: through the same stem Stern. So you've got multiple locations,

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Speaker 5: you know, where you're trying to track all this stuff down.

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Speaker 5: I would imagine the named the name suspect. His parents'

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Speaker 5: house is going to be a location as well that

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Speaker 5: they're going to get a warrant. They're going to get

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Speaker 5: through there, all of his belongings because they're viewing this,

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Speaker 5: I mean, the authorities are treating this as a political assassination.

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Speaker 5: So there are a lot of eyes on this at

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Speaker 5: various levels in law enforcement.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, so much that is unknown, so much to uncover,

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Speaker 6: as you said, so many different sites to investigate even.

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Speaker 2: I mean listen, if you're the Garans, dad already turns

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Speaker 2: him in, so I mean they would probably have to

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Speaker 2: just expect at at this point.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, and it's.

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Speaker 4: My understanding that Dad went to maybe the church to

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Speaker 4: talk to his pastor about like his son confessing or something.

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Speaker 6: What's being reported, Yeah, what's being reported is that Dad

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Speaker 6: went to a youth minister that the family knew through

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Speaker 6: conversation with that speaking with youth pastor, they reached out

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Speaker 6: and then the US marshals facilitated a peaceful surrender between

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Speaker 6: Dan and Tyler, which I'm sure that was. I can't

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Speaker 6: imagine actually how that would have been orchestrated to me.

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Speaker 4: And it's my understanding that as of right now, he's

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Speaker 4: being like woefully uncooperative.

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Speaker 3: Did you guys hear that too.

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Speaker 4: He's not cooperating with law enforcement on a motive or

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Speaker 4: anything like that, Like he's not talking.

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Speaker 3: Right right.

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Speaker 4: I just think it's interesting, Like we were talking about

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Speaker 4: maybe the idea of him wanting to get caught, right

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Speaker 4: like the bullet casings. He drove his own car. Apparently

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Speaker 4: I read something about a great challenger. He didn't really

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Speaker 4: hide his identity, he didn't hide anything about him. It's

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Speaker 4: almost like he wanted to get caught. But now he

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Speaker 4: gets caught and nothing nothing.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting.

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Speaker 6: What we do know is that twenty two year old

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Speaker 6: Tyler Robinson he's being held without bail. He's at Utah

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Speaker 6: County jail, and we will expect the formal charges Tuesday,

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Speaker 6: so in two days and then those you know, stay

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Speaker 6: tuned as more information comes up.

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Speaker 3: But in the charge by the State of.

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Speaker 5: Utah, yeah, that's my understanding. The Feds might have a

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Speaker 5: say in this too, so keep your eye. I would

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Speaker 5: really keep my eye on the US Attorney in Salt

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Speaker 5: Lake City. Keep your eye on that office too, because

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Speaker 5: there might be federal charges. Feds have interest in this case,

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Speaker 5: so they will at least be working very closely with

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Speaker 5: the state authorities. We'll see what else they do. I

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Speaker 5: know this this is going to be a full court press.

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Speaker 5: The governor in Utah has already said and oppressor, he says,

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Speaker 5: I just want everybody to know that we still have

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Speaker 5: the death penalty in Utah, so this is on their radar,

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Speaker 5: trust me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: So you know, we'll know more as those formal charges

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Speaker 6: do come out. But in the meantime, this is true.

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Speaker 6: Crun Tonight, We're on iHeartRadio. I'm Courtney Armstrong, lucky enough

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Speaker 6: to be here with Stephanie Leidecker and body move in

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Speaker 6: and also to be joined by forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 6: We've been talking about the assassination of Charlie. And again

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Speaker 6: we will keep going as the story evolves more in

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Speaker 6: the coming days. But Joseph, we wanted to talk to

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Speaker 6: you about crime con, even just starting with explaining what

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Speaker 6: is crime con. And we know that you had many,

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Speaker 6: many appearances, so yeah, tell us everything.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think I've been to every crime con except

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Speaker 5: for the first one, which was in Indianapolis, and I've

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Speaker 5: been to two in Great Britain. And so we giving

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Speaker 5: out keep the road hot or the sky's hot, going

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Speaker 5: back and forth. This last one was held in Aurora, Colorado.

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Speaker 5: They called it Denver, but it was actually an Aurora.

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Speaker 5: At give a big shout out. Hey, maybe they'll sponsor

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Speaker 5: us Gaylord resorts and Gaylord Resorts in Aurora, one of

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Speaker 5: the most beautiful resorts that I've ever seen. Oh really,

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Speaker 5: Oh my god. Yeah, And they needed all of the

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Speaker 5: space because this was the biggest crime con yet. I

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Speaker 5: think they were estimating about eighty five hundred people. I

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Speaker 5: did times. I did a live recording of body Bags

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Speaker 5: where I explored the origin of my name. I'm named

436
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 5: after a homicide victim, and then I did another one

437
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 5: with my friends over Cross Space podcast. We talked about

438
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,640
Speaker 5: the alleged New England serial killer. You know, it's spent

439
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,880
Speaker 5: on everybody's tips of their tongues. And then I did

440
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 5: a whole session I just taught. I taught about post

441
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,119
Speaker 5: mortem interval to a crowd of about fifteen hundred people,

442
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 5: just learning what the debt or say, you know, in

443
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 5: death with their body language through science by the way,

444
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 5: So that was that was a great time. And then

445
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,399
Speaker 5: we myself and miss Nancy Grace, we spoke to a

446
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 5: room of about thirty two hundred people in the case

447
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 5: of Ellen Greenberg, which is something that she and I

448
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,880
Speaker 5: have been deeply involved in now for well over half

449
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 5: a decade.

450
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,119
Speaker 4: Now, I guess I saw I was. I was on

451
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,639
Speaker 4: face sorry stuff. I was on Facebook earlier today and

452
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 4: I was reading I mean that all the crime con

453
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 4: groups because I present did many times at crank Con

454
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 4: and I.

455
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 3: Wasn't able to go this year.

456
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 4: But so there was this really nice write up about

457
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 4: your segment about Ellen Greenberg. And I didn't know if

458
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 4: you had seen it or not, but this woman said

459
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 4: that she senior presentation on Ellen Greenberg, and she lives

460
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,919
Speaker 4: in Pennsylvania and she was inspired by your presentation with

461
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 4: Nancy and wants to start, you know, advocating for Ellen Greenberg.

462
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:24,639
Speaker 4: And I just thought you would like to know that

463
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 4: that you inspired.

464
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 5: Well, that's wonderful. I did another presentation in the UK

465
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 5: this past September. I think, no, I can't remember so fun. Yeah, yeah,

466
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,160
Speaker 5: it is. And you know, the people in UK when

467
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,919
Speaker 5: they heard the story, Hellen's story, you know, put in

468
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 5: British terms, they were gobsmacked, as I say, they couldn't

469
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 5: fathom it, particularly all of the releases that were done

470
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 5: to the public, the unsteady hand on the wheel, if

471
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 5: you will, and this the lady that wrote this nice

472
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 5: note is a Pennsylvania resident, which is where the Ellen

473
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,919
Speaker 5: Greenberg case actually takes place, actually in Philadelphia, and it

474
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 5: has been something. Ellen was an only child and her

475
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,640
Speaker 5: parents are well up in age now and God bless them,

476
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 5: Joshua and Sandy Greenberg. They have spent their entire life

477
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,400
Speaker 5: savings mortgage their home just to keep Ellen's name out

478
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 5: there and just about bankrupted him. And she was brutally,

479
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 5: in my opinion, murdered. She stabbed over twenty times, found

480
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 5: in her locked apartment, multiple stab wounds not just on

481
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,959
Speaker 5: the anterior chest but into her back as well, and

482
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 5: one that even brushes up against her spinal cord. I've

483
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 5: never seen a case that the manner of death has

484
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 5: been changed with such great frequency. Never ever, in all

485
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 5: of my years working for corners and medical examiners, hers

486
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 5: has been changed three times.

487
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 3: Three times.

488
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,360
Speaker 5: Yeah. Initially the doctor of the prins of pathologist, doctor Osborne,

489
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 5: came out and said that it was a homicide. Then

490
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 5: he went into a closed door meeting with the DA

491
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:05,640
Speaker 5: and the police. Police were asking for suicide, and.

492
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 3: Police were asking for suicide.

493
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 2: Makes total sense, you know, obviously when you commit suicide

494
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 2: with a knife, you know, yeah, yeah, the stab wounds

495
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 2: are so excessive that.

496
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,400
Speaker 5: You know, I got to tell you to see these

497
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 5: kind of injuries. First off, they're associated in my in

498
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 5: my estimation at least with an overkill. You see these

499
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,879
Speaker 5: like this a lot of passion involved. You see this

500
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,360
Speaker 5: a lot with sharp force injury cases. The first thing

501
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,479
Speaker 5: that you know, every stabbing I've ever had, multiple stabbing,

502
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 5: has always been a homicide. I've had people that were

503
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 5: mentally in balanced, that had real issues that have cut

504
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 5: themselves and it wound up being fatal, but it was

505
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 5: never to this degree. Biomechanically. If you're in the sound

506
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 5: of my voice right now, biomechanically, just try and imagine

507
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 5: you've got a kitchen knife that is driven into your

508
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 5: driving into your back, down your spine and in the

509
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 5: pain centers alone. We know what a paper cut feels like.

510
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 5: Can you imagine a serrated blade that you're sticking into

511
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 5: your body over and over again. It's horrible, and you know,

512
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 5: I find it really interesting. Let me throw out an

513
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,399
Speaker 5: interesting bit of trivia to you guys. Discovered company that

514
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,239
Speaker 5: manufacture this knife. I try to buy one because we

515
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 5: did a reconstruction of scene and they were so expensive.

516
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 5: The company is Cutco is the name of the company.

517
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 5: Guess what company they bought. They owned k Bar.

518
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 3: Oh.

519
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 5: So, not that those two things are necessarily associated, but

520
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 5: two cases involved in short sharp force injury that have

521
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 5: played prominently so far.

522
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 3: I know that because of the search warrants. Yeah, the

523
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 3: only reason I know.

524
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:48,640
Speaker 5: So there you go.

525
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan is back with us, host of the

526
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: hit podcast body Bags, and we're talking a lot about

527
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,959
Speaker 2: his I don't want to say performance because that's not

528
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 2: the right word, but I know you did many panels

529
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 2: of which we're with Nancy Grace at Crime con Ellen Greenberg.

530
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 3: This case.

531
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 2: You have been talking about this, this case kind of

532
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 2: like a frontman for many, many years now, So we

533
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 2: were going through some of the semantics. Courtney is wearing

534
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 2: her weighted vest. We often both do to help the posture.

535
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 2: Do you know what it is?

536
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 6: I lean so far into the microphone because I'm so

537
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 6: interested in what everyone's saying, and this reminds me to

538
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 6: not hunch my back.

539
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 3: So both have like we have shoulder back issues.

540
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: But it looks like a bulletproof vest to the naked eye,

541
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 2: so catching me off guard. But yeah, so back to

542
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 2: the forensics here, Joseph, because this case is pretty unbelievable.

543
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 3: Boddy, you were going to do a little bit of

544
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 3: a summation for.

545
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 4: Us, Yeah, like a summary suffering everybody kind of up

546
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,239
Speaker 4: to speed if you're not familiar with the case. So,

547
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 4: Ellen Greenberg, she was a twenty seven year old Philadelphia

548
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 4: school teacher and she was found dead in her apartment

549
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 4: during a twenty eleven blizzard.

550
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 3: She had extensive stab.

551
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 4: Wounds, as we discussed in the previous segment, but they

552
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 4: were extensive and bruising. Initially it was ruled a homicide,

553
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 4: and later it was changed to suicide. And since then

554
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 4: her case has faced, you know, a lot of public

555
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 4: and professional scrutiny, and you know, rightly so, and it's

556
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 4: culminated in legal appeals and just recently a statement from

557
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 4: the original pathologist rejecting the suicide determination. But because this

558
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 4: pathologist is no longer you know, practicing or whatever, he

559
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 4: no longer works for the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office, his

560
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 4: changed opinion carries no official legal authority.

561
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 3: And does not alter the death certificate at all.

562
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 4: So there's kind of like this legal quagmire right now

563
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 4: with this investigation is I think that's kind of the

564
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 4: best way to explain it. It's kind of up in

565
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 4: the air right now because the guy who originally said

566
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 4: this is what happened is changing his mind, and because

567
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 4: he no longer works there, it doesn't care any weight.

568
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, doctor Osborn sent Florida. Now. Yeah, And a lot

569
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 5: of the faces and actors have changed, but some of

570
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 5: the well, let's just say, some of the people that

571
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 5: are in power have gotten gone onto even more powerful positions.

572
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 5: So I understand, you know, that's that's really the rub here,

573
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 5: As the board would say, uh. And for I think

574
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 5: for us, uh that look at this case just based

575
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 5: on forensic stuff, it kind of you know, a lot

576
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 5: of us. I'll put it to you this way. If

577
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 5: a group of forensic pathologists were to get it to

578
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 5: get together and they had a case like this, this

579
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 5: is the kind of case that people would write a

580
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 5: journal article about, they go to meetings and present. I'm

581
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 5: just talking about from a forensic stent.

582
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 4: So so if I saw an illustration of her of

583
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 4: her wounds, it's it's nothing graphic.

584
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 3: It's just an illustration.

585
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 4: And there were literally like one hundred knives coming out

586
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 4: of her back. Yeah, and then and then her front

587
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 4: area too, like her chest and neck area, and it

588
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 4: was just it was just illustrating all the wounds that

589
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 4: she had and how many times she would have had

590
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 4: to stab herself. Yes, it is crazy to me.

591
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 5: You're you know, I'm glad you pointed that out, because Buddy,

592
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 5: I got to tell you something. Yeah, what's really fascinating

593
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 5: about this. And the image that you reference is something

594
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 5: that Greenberg's they're investigators, they generated this for everyone. If

595
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 5: you'll imagine holding a knife in your hand and it's

596
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 5: in the blade is in the vertical plane, so sharp

597
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 5: edge is down, the blunt side is up. This weapon,

598
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 5: this knife, actually enters her body and rotates several times

599
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 5: so that the sharp edge is on the top the

600
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 5: blunt edge is on the bottom. Then it rotates to

601
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 5: the horizontal plane. So not only are you stabbing yourself

602
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 5: multiple times, you're also rolling the knife in your hand

603
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 5: and readjusting it and stabbing again. Some of the trajectories

604
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 5: are up, some of the trajectories are down. Some of

605
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 5: the trajectories are front to back and back front straight on.

606
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,479
Speaker 5: It baffles the mind when you begin to think about

607
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 5: the idea that you're trying to sell us on the

608
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 5: fact that she stabbed herself twenty times, and it just

609
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 5: seems I'm not going to say empirically impossible, but I

610
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 5: would say that this would be such an outlier. She

611
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 5: had just sent out, she had just sent out saved

612
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 5: the date cards for her wedding. You know, she was

613
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 5: making a fruit salad at the sink. I mean, I

614
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 5: don't know, maybe that's a very contemplative place for some people,

615
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 5: but you're cutting up a fruit salad and you suddenly

616
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 5: decide to attack yourself. Yeah, this is super bizarre.

617
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 3: It really doesn't make sense.

618
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 6: And then I understand that Ellen also had more than

619
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 6: ten that you had about eleven bruises that were in

620
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 6: different healing stages. So what does that tell It tells

621
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 6: me a lay person, but as something what does that

622
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 6: tell you as a forensic expert?

623
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 5: Well, you know what I got to tell you with bruising,

624
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 5: something I have a real heart for in forensics and

625
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 5: did for years, and it's so horrible, but it's some

626
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 5: One of the jobs we have to do is the

627
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 5: investigation of child deaths and if you have a child

628
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 5: that suffered from chronic abuse, impact injuries, that sort of thing.

629
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 5: One of the things that we do at autopsy is

630
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 5: age contusions, and all of us can identify if you

631
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 5: get if you bump into into a coffee table, all right,

632
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 5: and your shin gets bruised, you know it's going to

633
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 5: go from red, it's going to turn dark, then it'll

634
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 5: go green, that discussing green, and then it'll go yellow

635
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 5: and fade or resolve. And so these a lot of

636
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 5: these contusions that she has are in very states of resolution.

637
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,399
Speaker 5: And that's another troubling fact. And one more thing, and

638
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 5: this will really blow you away. She has a contusion

639
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 5: on the antier aspect of her neck overlying her trading.

640
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 5: The guys, I got to tell you, looks just like

641
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:29,240
Speaker 5: a handprint, and it'sn't.

642
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,240
Speaker 4: Her cause of death wasn't asphyxiation.

643
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 5: The right, No. And you know what I think that

644
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:37,399
Speaker 5: handprint could have been. It's a it's a control point.

645
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 5: As you're holding with one hand, you're stabbing with ever

646
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 5: like this, and you can either do that. You can

647
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 5: either do that antiorly where you're pressing like this and

648
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 5: maybe you're restraining her from her front side, or you

649
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 5: can reach around frontwards and stab in the back like this.

650
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 5: It's an interesting certainly a very interesting image. And you

651
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 5: know who first really laid eyes on that was her dad.

652
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 5: And let me tell you what other forensic pathologists had

653
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 5: an interest in this case.

654
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 3: I am sad for this.

655
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 5: Well, I am sad too. But doctor Weck, Cyril Weck

656
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,399
Speaker 5: consulted on this test. God read this case, God rest

657
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 5: his soul. He's passed on now. He said everything he's

658
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 5: seen was consistent with homsuck.

659
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 3: Well, Henry Lee too, right.

660
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,280
Speaker 5: I don't I think that that doctor Lee did get involved.

661
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 3: But that's my understanding as well.

662
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, but from a forensic pathology standpoint, this runs contrary.

663
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,240
Speaker 5: There's also a neuropathologist that took a look at Ellen's

664
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 5: tissue from her neck and her conclusion was she she

665
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 5: only admitted this in a deposition. This was not This

666
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 5: was not in a report that she had written. It

667
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 5: came out in a deposition. She said that the spinal

668
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 5: cord that one these injuries, spinal cord. There was no

669
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 5: hemorrhage in the wound track. That's a post mortem injury.

670
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 4: And it's also my understanding that the guy who called

671
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 4: ninety one one is her fiance and he said that

672
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 4: she was in a locked house.

673
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 3: The door was locked.

674
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 5: I had a gatelock on it. Yeah, that's a gate lock,

675
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 5: hotel lock, you know it just okay, chrome, I mean yeah, sorry,

676
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:25,879
Speaker 5: looks like a brass ball.

677
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 3: Yeah.

678
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:30,399
Speaker 2: They lever exactly like a little bit of a lever.

679
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 2: And is there any assertion as to who or why

680
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 2: if in fact this was a homicide.

681
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 5: No, there's not. And one of the reasons I submit

682
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 5: to you, I submit to everybody in the sound of

683
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 5: my voice, is that from Jump Street, the police wanted

684
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 5: to handle this as a suicide. Why why? Million dollar question?

685
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 5: And with a suicide. What happens when you show up

686
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,879
Speaker 5: on a scene as an investigator and people start throwing

687
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 5: out the term suicide, suddenly your interest level. There's somebody

688
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 5: there for the police, it's wrote for them to do

689
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 5: a suicide investigation. Now the EMMY investigator was out there,

690
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:15,879
Speaker 5: our view is completely different, and they did a bang

691
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 5: up job out there. The Emmy investigator that came out

692
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,240
Speaker 5: from the Emmy's office wasn't a doctor, It was actually

693
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 5: a LA investigator, and they did a bang up job.

694
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 5: They did a thorough examination of her remains as best

695
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 5: they could out there. But you know when you got

696
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 5: the cops saying, okay, let's close it up. It's suicide.

697
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 5: And within a couple of days, you know, the apartment

698
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 5: owner was allowed to clean the apartment.

699
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 6: What yeah, boy, that is really not standard at all. Listen,

700
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 6: this is true crime tonight, And if you have any

701
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 6: questions for Joseph Scott Morgan, our forensic expert who is

702
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 6: telling us about this case of Ellen Greenberg, give us

703
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 6: a call. We're at eighty eight to three one Crime.

704
00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 6: We would love to hear from you and Joseph, I

705
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,839
Speaker 6: understand that not only was the apartment cleaned right after this.

706
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:06,720
Speaker 3: I guess we'll call it tragedy.

707
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,720
Speaker 6: Since we don't know whether to call it homicide or suicide.

708
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 6: But also that phones, laptops, and credit cards were removed

709
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 6: from the scene before police had a warrant.

710
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, that was my understanding. Somebody's family member was allowed

711
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 5: to go in there and retrieve these items. But again,

712
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 5: there's no need for a warrant, right because this is

713
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 5: a suicide. It's now family matter, you know, whoever's domiciled

714
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 5: in that apartment.

715
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 4: How often does it happen that law enforcement would go

716
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 4: to the medical examiner and say, we want a suicide

717
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 4: out of this.

718
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 5: I've had it happen to me. Yeah, yeah, and it

719
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 5: generally it happens in most cases in my personal experience.

720
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 5: I can't speak to everybody else. It's just my little

721
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 5: slice of PI, y'all. Most of the time I've had

722
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,919
Speaker 5: people not necessarily suggest that I do it, but just say, hey,

723
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 5: you know, what, is there any way you can rule

724
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,439
Speaker 5: this as an accident? He had wife, kids, and many

725
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,320
Speaker 5: times that happens. You get that, That's happened number times

726
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 5: in my career where you've had police officers taken their

727
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 5: own life and it's something that I would never participate

728
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 5: in because I can go to prison for that, and

729
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 5: anybody in my field could because it's fraud. But cops

730
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 5: coming in to pressure and listen. There's no recording of

731
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 5: that meeting that took place with the prosecutor and the

732
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 5: police and the emmy. All we know is that he

733
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 5: came out in the in the manner was changed.

734
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 4: M I just feel like that is like such an egregious,

735
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:53,399
Speaker 4: horrible part of the investigation. The medical examiner should never

736
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 4: be led right like down a path. Ever, No, I

737
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 4: remember watching I can't remember what doc I think. I

738
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 4: think it was making a murder and whatever. I don't

739
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 4: know anything about Stephen Avery if he's guilty, and that's

740
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 4: not what this is about. But the DNA expert had

741
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:10,919
Speaker 4: a note from the cop that said, hey, we would

742
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 4: really like it if the DNA belonged to this person

743
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 4: or something along my goodness, and I remember going, what

744
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 4: the heck, and the DNA expert was like, yeah, this

745
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 4: is the I just thought that was crazy, and so

746
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 4: it's kind of what it reminded me of that moment

747
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 4: in court with Steven Avery.

748
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 5: I just thought a bit of sign speaks for itself.

749
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 4: Right, that's the thing that science should lead you, not

750
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 4: like your pals you know in the in the office

751
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 4: three doors down that you know, maybe you have a

752
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 4: beer with after work, Like this is real life, life

753
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 4: changing information.

754
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:52,240
Speaker 3: Wow.

755
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 4: So somebody went in and took the computers and the

756
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 4: phones and those things in credit card words and whatnot

757
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 4: before police had a warrant which undermine the chain of custody.

758
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:09,240
Speaker 3: But did they ever get a hold of those that equipment.

759
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 5: I can't address that directly. I don't know. I think

760
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,399
Speaker 5: they did. But the problem is is that again, how

761
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:21,760
Speaker 5: do you validate that once it's passed through Yeah, person's hands, anything,

762
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 5: anything can be said, Lawyers can say anything they want to.

763
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 5: Once it's not in the possession of the police, that

764
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:32,800
Speaker 5: it could have been altered in some way. Yeah, And

765
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 5: so that's one of the reasons why our supposition is

766
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 5: from day one, any death that we work is a

767
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:44,320
Speaker 5: homicide until proven otherwise. And if you fall away from that,

768
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 5: that mantra in my business doom await you. So you

769
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 5: treat every single case is if it's a homicide, I

770
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 5: don't care if it's an eighty eight year old mamma.

771
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,799
Speaker 5: That passed away in her sleep. I have suspicions when

772
00:41:57,800 --> 00:41:59,959
Speaker 5: I show Seene, I just have to prove myself wrong.

773
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 5: But I have to start with homsaw because if you don't.

774
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 3: You have to start with the worst thing ever.

775
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

776
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,479
Speaker 6: Well, also, just to keep the evidence, Christine, to keep

777
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 6: the chain of custody alive, to allow it to be

778
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 6: a prosecutable case.

779
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 3: Should it actually be a prosecutable case. Wow.

780
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 4: So that's why we're at where we are because of

781
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,840
Speaker 4: all the shenanigans that went on early on in the investigation.

782
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 4: And apparently the fiance has like a powerful family and

783
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 4: this is like a problem.

784
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 3: That justice is not being had.

785
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:35,399
Speaker 4: But they recently won a lawsuit, right, the Greenbergs won

786
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 4: a lawsuit in regardless.

787
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, and just I think within the last week there's

788
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,439
Speaker 5: been another delay. It just seems as though I don't

789
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 5: know they just I have real thoughts about the way

790
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 5: this family has been treated. And I've got to tell you,

791
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 5: they're just kicking the can down the road, y'all.

792
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 6: Well, we wish them the best. Yeah, and thank you

793
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 6: for sharing that really important story. And this is true crime.

794
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:03,240
Speaker 6: Tonight's with us after the break we are talking about

795
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 6: the case of a nineteen year old boy whose body

796
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 6: was found on the side of the road inexplicably, also

797
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 6: the famous Elliott Rogers shooting. Keep it here at True

798
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 6: Crime Tonight.

799
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 2: You know, all of this talk about who the potential

800
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 2: shooter was and the recent arrest of Tyler Robinson, who's

801
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 2: allegedly the assassin in this case, has really brought up

802
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 2: a lot of conversation about radicalization online in sort of

803
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 2: the dark web, and we're doing a podcast about it

804
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 2: that's a bit of a deep dive, but also it's

805
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,839
Speaker 2: making us think of Elliott Roger. You guys will remember,

806
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 2: you know, he went on a murder spree. He was

807
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 2: a self identified in cell, which is again this radicalization online.

808
00:43:58,160 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 2: So we're going to do a bit of an unpathed

809
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 2: of that case as well, specifically the forensics, so more

810
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 2: on that, but again, please join the conversation. We're so

811
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:10,959
Speaker 2: happy to have the band back together and feel free

812
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,479
Speaker 2: to join. Let's go to a talk back right now.

813
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 7: Michelle with one Il here from Tampa. My question is

814
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 7: about Aaron Patterson eating the beef Wellington and then she

815
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 7: said that she ate lemon cake, the rest of the

816
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 7: lemon cake, which made her bowet ill and throw up.

817
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,839
Speaker 7: So my question is how long would she have to

818
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 7: get rid of the mushrooms before she had the physiological

819
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 7: effects of the poison? Thank you and I love your show.

820
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 2: What a good question, Joseph. The digestion process. Here you are,

821
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 2: you eat a poisonous mushroom, God forbid, and beef Wellington

822
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,800
Speaker 2: by the way, beef is very hard to probably digest

823
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,320
Speaker 2: as well. What do you think, Joseph, that's a great question.

824
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, it is when you're talking. And this was the

825
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 5: death Cat mushroom by the way, which you know was utilized,

826
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 5: was weaponar in Australia and highly toxic. One of the

827
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 5: problems is you initially present with gastoniritis, which you know

828
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 5: you'll have like stomach pain, diarrhea, nausea, sweating, those sorts

829
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 5: of things.

830
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 3: Sound there, but yeah, big reveal.

831
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 5: You can. You really feel miserable. And the problem is

832
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:31,839
Speaker 5: with this particular toxin is that it goes into a

833
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 5: dormancy period. This is terrifying and you think that you're

834
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 5: past the gastone writis the next thing you know, you're

835
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,720
Speaker 5: in the back of an ambulance fighting for your life

836
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:45,760
Speaker 5: and it immediately it's so toxic. What's happening behind the scenes,

837
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 5: and you really can't sense it is it is attacking

838
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:50,839
Speaker 5: the liver and the kidneys, so you're going to have

839
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 5: like a multi system failure. And the problem with poisonings

840
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 5: many times for clinicians when they have people that roll in,

841
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 5: people in the merchancy rooms are not thinking death cap mushroom, right,

842
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 5: They're not. They're thinking, Okay, where's he been, what's he eating?

843
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 5: And they're going through that list. That's why poisoning is

844
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 5: such a stealthy weapon. And you guys ought to do

845
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 5: an entire night on poisoners because it is absolutely fascinating.

846
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 5: Their their psyche is completely different than any other killer

847
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 5: out there. Oh yeah, yeah, they are stealthy. You know,

848
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 5: they're plotting, methodical, they tend to have a lot of

849
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 5: rage that's really stuffed down in them, and it's the

850
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 5: perfect weapon, perfect weapon. Almost I'm done.

851
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:36,360
Speaker 3: We should do that.

852
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 2: Because there was also that case of the of the

853
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 2: wife who was making those shakes for her husband every

854
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 2: night and the.

855
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 5: Husband. Yes, yeah, there's like two other ones that come

856
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 5: to mind to me.

857
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:54,320
Speaker 2: I was thinking of the wife a different one, but yes, yeah, there's.

858
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 5: A lot of them. You could go all the way

859
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:58,240
Speaker 5: back to the taalenol murders, you know, which they've done,

860
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 5: done to death, but you know that that's been done

861
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 5: for forever and ever. I was actually on a show

862
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 5: many years ago called out of Australia called Poisonous Liaisons,

863
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 5: and it was that's all they talked about. Absolutely, That's

864
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 5: where I learned a little bit about the psyche. I'm

865
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 5: more interested in toxicology, but I gotta tell you it

866
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 5: was kind of fascinating.

867
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 6: It is, And in this case, I think anyone who

868
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 6: is interested in this case is about to get as

869
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 6: much information as they want. Because Simon Patterson, so he

870
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:34,760
Speaker 6: was the strange husband of the now convicted murderer Aaron Patterson.

871
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:37,879
Speaker 6: So he is reported to be releasing a tell all

872
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 6: ten episode podcast into the allegations that has a strange

873
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 6: wife attempted to poison him, not just this once, but

874
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 6: on multiple occasions.

875
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 3: So she did it before.

876
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 4: Yes, he still ate her food after she tried to

877
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 4: poison him.

878
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 5: This not the fatal event. He did was a present

879
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 5: for it.

880
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 3: Oh okay, okay, gotcha?

881
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 5: Wow, Sorry, but he had come close to death. He

882
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 5: was hospitalized and in ICU and they thought he was

883
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 5: going to die. He had to go through multiple surgeries.

884
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 5: That's how insidious this tocsin is. And she went at

885
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 5: it again.

886
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,399
Speaker 4: And she was sentenced. Aaron Patterson was sentenced to three

887
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 4: life sentences for murder and a twenty five year term

888
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 4: for attempted murder, all to be served concurrently, and she

889
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 4: was given a non parole period of thirty three years.

890
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 4: And it was the first sentencing in victorious Supreme Court

891
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 4: that was broadcast on live television. So the country of

892
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 4: Australia had a massive interest in this case.

893
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 2: And then very much so, Yeah, it was very divisive

894
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 2: and yeah, the first televised imagine how how much that

895
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:52,359
Speaker 2: became the topic of every conversation. We've gotten so many

896
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 2: talkbacks and messages about it.

897
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:57,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, we have. I remember he Hailey.

898
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, I did it twice on Bodybags because it

899
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 5: was so intriguing. And I've got and I'm sure that

900
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 5: you guys do too as well. You might not be

901
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 5: aware of it. Australia is fantastic true crime and so

902
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:11,719
Speaker 5: I've got a lot of fans in Australia and New

903
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 5: Zealand and they were hands down, they were really fired

904
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 5: up about this sort of thing, because I mean, it

905
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 5: would be bizarre here. It's particularly bizarre there because they

906
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 5: don't have the same level of home subtle violence that

907
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 5: we do. They don't have that kind of thing as

908
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 5: much down there as we do here. And it really

909
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 5: captured because it's so it's because you know, you've got

910
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 5: a family, a lady that is attacking a family, her

911
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 5: own family, whether they be estranged or not. Her kids

912
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 5: are in the room. She made them a separate meal

913
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 5: in uncontaminated cookware and they didn't get sick. This is

914
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 5: at the same gathering, so she had planned us out. Again,

915
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 5: this is something we've talked about before, y'all. It's the

916
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 5: idea of intent. Man, you talk about intent a case

917
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 5: like this. How much pla to go into this?

918
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, she lured them over, saying that she wanted to

919
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:06,719
Speaker 4: talk to them about her cancer diagnosis, and that's why

920
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:07,760
Speaker 4: the kids weren't at the table.

921
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:12,440
Speaker 3: That's what she said. And this actually killed his parents. Yes,

922
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:14,319
Speaker 3: so he now he's doing a.

923
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:17,720
Speaker 4: Ten episode podcast about the murder of his parents basically,

924
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 4: and the attempted.

925
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 3: Murder of him. Oh my gosh.

926
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 2: And she didn't have cancer, by the way, So that

927
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:26,320
Speaker 2: was where also she does not have cancer.

928
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 3: That was a fabricated of course it was because she's

929
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 3: a nut job.

930
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 6: Yeah. What kind of a psycho do you need to

931
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:35,240
Speaker 6: be to be foisoning people in front of your children?

932
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:38,719
Speaker 6: I mean, well, listen, Joseph, thank you for putting all

933
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 6: you know, we have had so much outreach about it.

934
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 6: Thank you for the forensic sort of deep dives so

935
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 6: we can understand all the multi dysfunction in the kidneys.

936
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:50,360
Speaker 6: And watch your plate, watch your Wellington.

937
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 3: I guess right.

938
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 5: And you know I've always wanted to have a good

939
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 5: beat Wellington and now this completely put me off.

940
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 4: I've had the kitchen it's so good, please get it.

941
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 4: And the risotto, Oh my god, it's delicious. Gordon Ramsay,

942
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:04,359
Speaker 4: and how you're in Vegas Crime Con twenty twenty six.

943
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 4: He'll ditch you go, It'll be We'll all be there.

944
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 6: We'll be representing true crime tonight on iHeartRadio and Yeah

945
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 6: expect us. I'm Courtney Armstrong here with stephil Idecker and

946
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 6: Body Moven and joined by Joseph Scott Morgan, forensic expert.

947
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 6: If you want to join our conversation, give us a

948
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 6: call eight eight eight three to one.

949
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 3: Crime and Stephanie.

950
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 6: You'd mentioned earlier the assassination of Charlie Kirk, which has

951
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 6: led to just many conversations about the suspect, who it

952
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 6: appears has been radicalized online. The ideology is a big

953
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 6: question mark right now.

954
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 3: We don't know. We just don't know. But as you mentioned,

955
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:49,400
Speaker 3: it has gotten us talking and thinking and remembering Elliott Roger.

956
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:51,839
Speaker 3: So would you talk about that a little bit.

957
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:56,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, Elliott Roger, you'll remember, was a college student and

958
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:00,360
Speaker 2: again everything seemed pretty status quo. He came from a

959
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 2: a nice mother who loved him very much, and he

960
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:06,440
Speaker 2: was off to college. It's in a very affluent area.

961
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:10,720
Speaker 2: So again, somebody who's you know, mobiley, who's upwardly mobile,

962
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 2: I should say, big life ahead. And this guy, allegedly,

963
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 2: not so allegedly, was online in the deep dark corners

964
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 2: of the web and was radicalized into being an in

965
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 2: cell and an inceell is something that we talk about

966
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:31,800
Speaker 2: in our upcoming podcast, and it's this very strange word,

967
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 2: or at least it appeared so for us for many,

968
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 2: many years. We've been following in cells for a long time,

969
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:40,839
Speaker 2: and suddenly it seems like it is everywhere in the conversation.

970
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 2: And again to your point, we were seeing this a

971
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 2: bit with the Tyler Robinson arrest. So body, can you

972
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 2: break down a little bit about what the chads are

973
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 2: and kind of both sides of the coin.

974
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:57,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, Stacy and Chad's so in cells basically believe that

975
00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 4: they're cursed by their genetics. Okay, they're not good looking

976
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 4: enough to have romantic partners. They dislike women because of that,

977
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 4: and they also dislike the men that are successful with women.

978
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 4: So it's not that they hate women, they don't like

979
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 4: Stacy's and Chad's. And Stacy's are the women that they,

980
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:19,319
Speaker 4: you know, kind of put on.

981
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 3: Pedestals of beauty.

982
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:24,360
Speaker 2: Let's say, kind of like a Barbie type sort of

983
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:26,839
Speaker 2: say that, right, yeah, like, you.

984
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 4: Know, whatever society deems beautiful, right, And then the chads

985
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:34,719
Speaker 4: are the men that are successful, and so those are

986
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 4: men that have maybe in Elliott Rogers case, a man

987
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:42,400
Speaker 4: and a woman were sitting basically on a park bench

988
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 4: at the beach and seemingly in an embrace of some kind,

989
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 4: he will walk up to them and throw coffee at them.

990
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 4: And those would be Stacy's and chads, and those are

991
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 4: the people that in cells have rage over and.

992
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 2: They have rage over each other in this online group. So,

993
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 2: you know, imagine you're in your mom's basement or you're

994
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:07,479
Speaker 2: off at college and your mom thinks you're studying going

995
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 2: to parties, but instead you're online being radicalized. And in

996
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:14,200
Speaker 2: a way, it's almost like there's a little bit of

997
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:17,359
Speaker 2: hate and a little bit of revenge and a little

998
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 2: bit of envy all wrapped up into one super bomb.

999
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 3: If you will.

1000
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:25,360
Speaker 2: And an Elliott Roger's case, I think that was the

1001
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 2: first real case that came on the scene that we

1002
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 2: had all followed and heard of. He also left an

1003
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:35,960
Speaker 2: infamous manifesto, and in that manifesto, you know, body, this

1004
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 2: is again your territory.

1005
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 3: I hate to walk on it, but.

1006
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 2: No, please, you know, the lead in that, you know,

1007
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:46,400
Speaker 2: generalization of his manifesto was what the manifesto itself like?

1008
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:48,680
Speaker 2: Was there something in general in the manifesto?

1009
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,479
Speaker 4: It was just his complaints about life and how he,

1010
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:56,400
Speaker 4: you know, is a gentlemanly man who deserves all the

1011
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 4: things in life, and one thing after another, you know,

1012
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 4: from his father to his mother to his you know, family,

1013
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 4: and his genetics and being short and et cetera. Everything

1014
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 4: was everybody else's fault. That's basically what the manifesto was,

1015
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 4: and it went into detail about his childhood, how he

1016
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 4: was raised, his mother's boyfriends. Like it runs the gamut

1017
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 4: of complaints. It's kind of a whiny bible, right, But

1018
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 4: it's important to know though that Elliott is kind of

1019
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 4: like a hero to the in cell community. It's also

1020
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:32,279
Speaker 4: important to note that just because you're involuntarily celibate does

1021
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 4: not mean that you're violent. And just because you are

1022
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 4: an in cell and identify self identifies an in cel

1023
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 4: communicating with other inceels online, that also doesn't mean you're violent.

1024
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 4: Like this hardcore sect of him are right, that were

1025
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 4: basically making the news, but it just means that they

1026
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 4: have kind of despair over their life. In most cases,

1027
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 4: it was started by a female. By the way, this

1028
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:58,399
Speaker 4: movement there and there are female in cults, are called

1029
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:01,399
Speaker 4: theem cells. That's right, The in cell movement was started

1030
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:01,880
Speaker 4: by a female.

1031
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:02,319
Speaker 3: Was a woman.

1032
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:04,320
Speaker 4: She was kind of lonely and started like an online

1033
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:07,319
Speaker 4: community kind of complain about it, and of course the

1034
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 4: manosphere joined in and kind of took over the movement

1035
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:14,960
Speaker 4: and now they congregate on They used to congregate on

1036
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:17,720
Speaker 4: Reddit a lot but they got banned in twenty eighteen.

1037
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 4: But now they have their own forums, privately owned that

1038
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 4: they can control, and they congregate online and in discords

1039
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:28,240
Speaker 4: and things like that and complain about Stacy's and Chad's

1040
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:29,359
Speaker 4: and many of them.

1041
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 3: That's all they do.

1042
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:33,240
Speaker 4: They just complain and they have camaraderie with other fellow

1043
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:35,240
Speaker 4: in cells that understand their pain.

1044
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:36,880
Speaker 3: Right, it's their community.

1045
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 4: Other people, just like in every other kind of subculture,

1046
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:43,840
Speaker 4: take things too far, and Elliott was one of those people.

1047
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:46,359
Speaker 6: That's right, And in his manifesto a few things that

1048
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 6: stood out to me was describing women as a plague

1049
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 6: and that them having their women having their right to

1050
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:56,680
Speaker 6: choose their own partners could hinder the advancement of humanity.

1051
00:56:57,239 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 6: So there is a lot of the hate and the

1052
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:02,360
Speaker 6: rage come out. So listen, stick with us. We're going

1053
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:04,799
Speaker 6: to have Joseph walk us through the forensics of this

1054
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 6: Elliott Roger case. We are also going to be covering

1055
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 6: some other cases, so keep it here True Crime Tonight.

1056
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 2: And we are digging into the forensics now of kind

1057
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 2: of one of the more infamous in cell cases of

1058
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 2: mass murder, Elliott Roger. He you know, took the lives

1059
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:38,560
Speaker 2: of really of almost as though he hated anybody who

1060
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:43,640
Speaker 2: was enjoying true love or having fun at university, seemingly

1061
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:47,000
Speaker 2: people who seem to have it all when he himself

1062
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 2: felt as though he had nothing. You know, Joseph, it

1063
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:54,640
Speaker 2: had very interesting forensics because the manner and weapons were unusual.

1064
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:57,640
Speaker 5: Correct, Yeah, you had a blend. You had a blend

1065
00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:02,720
Speaker 5: of sharp force weapons, knives, and then he also had

1066
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 5: two separate nine millimeter handgun platforms. So here's a mind blower.

1067
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:12,840
Speaker 5: When they found his vehicle, he had a lot of

1068
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:17,120
Speaker 5: magazines that were preloaded with ammo, like tons of it

1069
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:20,200
Speaker 5: looked like he's going to war. Had in total five

1070
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:25,440
Speaker 5: hundred rounds of live ammunition nine millimeters ammunitions they found

1071
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 5: in the vehicle. And as horrible as these deaths are,

1072
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 5: it would seem as though he was prepared to go

1073
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 5: quite some distance to kill many people, and he seemed

1074
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:41,840
Speaker 5: to be on a mission. You know, it's one thing

1075
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 5: to start out stabbing people and then you kind of

1076
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:47,880
Speaker 5: move it the next the next cycle here where you're

1077
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:50,120
Speaker 5: going to start killing again. You have firearm. Yeah, it's

1078
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 5: an interesting blend. You don't normally see that. And where

1079
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:59,240
Speaker 5: you have an individual that will transition from a sharp

1080
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 5: force up into a handgun. It kind of begs the question,

1081
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:04,720
Speaker 5: you've got so much ammo, why didn't you just use

1082
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 5: use the handgun for everything.

1083
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting.

1084
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:11,320
Speaker 5: Rifles and go to shot or to go to handguns,

1085
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:13,160
Speaker 5: but generally knives to handguns.

1086
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:16,320
Speaker 4: So the total number of people that he killed were six,

1087
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:21,040
Speaker 4: and the three people he killed initially were his two

1088
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:26,080
Speaker 4: roommates and their friend. And in that situation at their apartment,

1089
00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 4: that's where he used the knife. And I always found

1090
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:34,920
Speaker 4: it interesting that he used such a personal weapon for

1091
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 4: the people he knew and for the people he didn't know.

1092
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:41,800
Speaker 4: He kind of just did you know. I just always

1093
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:43,640
Speaker 4: found that I don't know what that is very interesting.

1094
00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:45,919
Speaker 4: Go with me for there, go there for sex.

1095
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 2: So if he uses a knife, which again I've learned

1096
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 2: this from Joseph, has sort of an intimacy to it.

1097
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:54,560
Speaker 3: Imagine, you know, it's face.

1098
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 2: To face Mortal Kombat, really right, and it takes a

1099
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:01,000
Speaker 2: level of thrusting and removing and you know, what a mess.

1100
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 2: So you would imagine you would never want to look

1101
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 2: somebody that you know right in the eye or you

1102
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:11,959
Speaker 2: know that seems oh now that we're talking it out,

1103
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 2: you know, we should abandon this immediately. It just sounds

1104
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 2: like we're trying to explain the mind of a I

1105
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:19,920
Speaker 2: know and you saw the maniac, right, you can't. But

1106
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:22,800
Speaker 2: it is an interesting connection that that does seem more

1107
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 2: personal and something to use on someone you know better barbarically.

1108
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 4: So this all happened just so if everybody is not

1109
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 4: familiar with the actual crime itself. This was in late

1110
01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:37,280
Speaker 4: May of twenty fourteen. May twenty third of twenty fourteen,

1111
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:42,560
Speaker 4: Elliott Roger killed six people and injured fourteen others in

1112
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:46,400
Speaker 4: an Ila Vista community near you see Santa Barbara. And

1113
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:49,520
Speaker 4: he first stabbed his two roommates and their friend at home.

1114
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:52,440
Speaker 4: Then he attempted to attack or sorority, but he couldn't

1115
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:55,240
Speaker 4: get inside, if you guys remember that part. And then

1116
01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:59,480
Speaker 4: so he's standing outside the sorority and he starts shooting, okay,

1117
01:00:59,880 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 4: and he shot three women. He killed two of them,

1118
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:05,280
Speaker 4: and then he killed a man at a deli and

1119
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:09,120
Speaker 4: continued driving through town, shooting and hitting pedestrians. There was

1120
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 4: a short shootout with the police and he was wounded.

1121
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:16,800
Speaker 4: He crashed his car and died via suicide. So there's

1122
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:19,520
Speaker 4: also the weapon of the car at this point too, right,

1123
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 4: because he killed himself using this car, so that could

1124
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 4: be technically a weapon.

1125
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, So he he went on.

1126
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:33,960
Speaker 4: It was basically a rampage and he ditched weapons and

1127
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 4: used different manners along the way. It all started around

1128
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 4: seven thirty pm. He went to Starbucks and got a coffee.

1129
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:45,960
Speaker 4: Then he goes back home and he started stabbing his

1130
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:51,800
Speaker 4: roommates and their names were Chen Wan and George Chen

1131
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:56,720
Speaker 4: along with their friend David Wang. And then about an

1132
01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:00,040
Speaker 4: hour and a half later, Roger he drove to the

1133
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:03,520
Speaker 4: Alpha Phi sorority house, but no one would answer the door,

1134
01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 4: and he was very pretty aggressive in his knocking and

1135
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:08,720
Speaker 4: nobody answered the door. So then he just kind of

1136
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:11,720
Speaker 4: turned around and started shooting people that were just walking

1137
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:15,520
Speaker 4: down the street, and too you know, he shot three.

1138
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:20,040
Speaker 4: He killed two, Catherine Cooper and Veronica Weiss, who were

1139
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:24,080
Speaker 4: walking nearby. And then about ten minutes later at nine

1140
01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:26,640
Speaker 4: twenty seven is when the first nine one to one

1141
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 4: call came in nine point thirty. A few minutes after that,

1142
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:32,560
Speaker 4: he drove to the Deli mart, got out of his

1143
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:37,280
Speaker 4: car and shot and killed student Christopher Michaels Martinez. He

1144
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:39,320
Speaker 4: might have been a chat in his eyes, right, he

1145
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:42,080
Speaker 4: might have. He's out enjoying life, and you know, who knows,

1146
01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:44,280
Speaker 4: he might have been a chat in his eyes, or

1147
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:45,720
Speaker 4: he just might have been on a rampage.

1148
01:02:45,720 --> 01:02:46,120
Speaker 3: We don't know.

1149
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 4: Approximately nine thirty three pm, after shooting Christopher, Roger exchanged

1150
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:54,800
Speaker 4: gunfire with the sheriff's deputies and he fled. After a

1151
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:58,520
Speaker 4: super chaotic pursuit that only lasted a few minutes. Roger

1152
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 4: continued to shoot at people in his car driving down

1153
01:03:01,520 --> 01:03:05,360
Speaker 4: the street and hit several again. He wounded fourteen people,

1154
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 4: and then he crashed his vehicle into a parked car

1155
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 4: and that was the end. So, yeah, he was definitely

1156
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 4: on a rampage and he didn't care who he killed.

1157
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:16,840
Speaker 4: He had no regard for human life.

1158
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:22,120
Speaker 6: Joseph Elliott Roger he had legally purchased these three semi

1159
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:25,040
Speaker 6: automatic can guns that were found in his car during

1160
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:29,360
Speaker 6: the attack, and he said that the glock thirty four

1161
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:33,520
Speaker 6: he considered it an efficient and highly accurate weapon, which

1162
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:37,080
Speaker 6: is something that was included in his manifesto. Any thoughts

1163
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:41,080
Speaker 6: on the glock thirty four or accuracy.

1164
01:03:40,720 --> 01:03:45,000
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, yeah, it's a highly dependable weapon. Particularly back then.

1165
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:48,520
Speaker 5: You know, it's an again, this is an Austrian Wow,

1166
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:51,720
Speaker 5: same show, same night. I'm talking about Austrian made weapons.

1167
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:57,400
Speaker 5: So glock is an Austrian product. It's been highly reliable.

1168
01:03:57,480 --> 01:04:01,360
Speaker 5: People don't aesthetically, they're not much to look at people

1169
01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:04,920
Speaker 5: that purchase guns, but they're very efficient at their job.

1170
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:09,480
Speaker 5: He also had a sixth hour, which is also another

1171
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:15,160
Speaker 5: European weapon, highly effective, particularly back then. In my personal opinion,

1172
01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 5: I think that were better made and these were high

1173
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:20,920
Speaker 5: end weapons well, particularly the sig back then nowadays not

1174
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:23,520
Speaker 5: so much. It would have been very expensive to purchase.

1175
01:04:24,160 --> 01:04:27,320
Speaker 5: So he was very well prepared. And yeah, I mean

1176
01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:32,560
Speaker 5: weapons for anybody. It's like shoes, you know. You people

1177
01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:36,440
Speaker 5: that fire hand guns, they have brand loyalty. There are

1178
01:04:36,440 --> 01:04:39,680
Speaker 5: certain aspects to them that they find they can smoothly reload,

1179
01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:43,680
Speaker 5: are that the cycling on the weapon is very smooth

1180
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:47,800
Speaker 5: and dependable. It doesn't jam. So people can have a

1181
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:53,320
Speaker 5: multitude of reasons why they like a particular weapon, but

1182
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:56,200
Speaker 5: yet over all the glock is highly effective. A lot

1183
01:04:56,240 --> 01:04:59,240
Speaker 5: of police departments around the country that's their go to weapon.

1184
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:02,760
Speaker 4: And the knife he used was a boar hunting knife

1185
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:06,040
Speaker 4: and it's a long, fixed bladed knife and the blade

1186
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:09,640
Speaker 4: is about nine inches long. And they found in his

1187
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:12,160
Speaker 4: house other knives that weren't used in the attack, but

1188
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:15,080
Speaker 4: another one was a zombie killer that is also a

1189
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:16,080
Speaker 4: fixed bladed weapon.

1190
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:17,680
Speaker 3: It's ten inches long.

1191
01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:20,920
Speaker 4: And then they also found a couple folding knives and

1192
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:24,960
Speaker 4: a machete. They found a machete in his apartment, Like,

1193
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:28,760
Speaker 4: who is a machete nobody else?

1194
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:30,800
Speaker 5: Well, you're out in the country and you're clear and brush,

1195
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:31,840
Speaker 5: they're pretty handy to have.

1196
01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:37,240
Speaker 2: But no, yeah, not at university in Santa Barbara, where

1197
01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:40,640
Speaker 2: there is no brush to to really work through. You know,

1198
01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:43,760
Speaker 2: he was in fact a stashing weapons and he was

1199
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:48,000
Speaker 2: collecting them and he was creating a pile of weapons

1200
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:51,520
Speaker 2: for what would one day be his his going out

1201
01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:54,720
Speaker 2: with a bang party, which is what we saw. Very

1202
01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:59,880
Speaker 2: performative in a way and also so senseless. So I know,

1203
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:04,880
Speaker 2: will never answer the why in this, but again it

1204
01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:10,160
Speaker 2: is he became sort of the poster child of in cells.

1205
01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:11,480
Speaker 3: And they celebrate him.

1206
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 2: Many people celebrate him, And that's why it's so important

1207
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 2: that we discuss it and unpack it, because right there

1208
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:22,320
Speaker 2: is the double kill in this not only did he

1209
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:24,200
Speaker 2: senselessly murder six people?

1210
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:27,520
Speaker 3: Since then, Elliott Roger has become.

1211
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:33,080
Speaker 2: Sort of this this revered person online for these very

1212
01:06:33,120 --> 01:06:34,480
Speaker 2: insidious actions.

1213
01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:35,920
Speaker 3: It's hard to believe.

1214
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:39,960
Speaker 4: Yeah. Every year in May they celebrate the anniversary of

1215
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:45,400
Speaker 4: the attacks. Seeing that insane, I mean, how is that allowed?

1216
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:48,600
Speaker 4: They sell t shirts with his images on it. It's

1217
01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:51,360
Speaker 4: called Saint Elliot Day. They also refer to him as

1218
01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:55,720
Speaker 4: er going er. So like, for instance, that there's an

1219
01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:59,040
Speaker 4: attack by an in cell of a self proclaimed incel,

1220
01:06:59,160 --> 01:07:02,040
Speaker 4: it's a known cell, they'll say, oh, he went er.

1221
01:07:02,240 --> 01:07:02,800
Speaker 3: Good for him.

1222
01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:07,280
Speaker 4: He's definitely somebody they hold in high esteem. Wow.

1223
01:07:07,720 --> 01:07:08,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's kind of.

1224
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:14,320
Speaker 4: The reason that in cells were brought to mainstream media attention, right, Like,

1225
01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:17,640
Speaker 4: he's one of the first I think documented violent in

1226
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:19,080
Speaker 4: cells I media.

1227
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:20,040
Speaker 3: I'm wrong by that, but.

1228
01:07:20,080 --> 01:07:23,160
Speaker 2: It's the first one that I was aware of the

1229
01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:27,400
Speaker 2: first same and once that case happened, it was something

1230
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:29,680
Speaker 2: that if you knew, you kind of knew, but it

1231
01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:34,360
Speaker 2: certainly wasn't a common thought now today, I think, based

1232
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:38,840
Speaker 2: on Brian Coberger and the hideous murders in Idaho. While

1233
01:07:38,840 --> 01:07:42,080
Speaker 2: he is not a self proclaimed in cell, he definitely

1234
01:07:42,200 --> 01:07:46,160
Speaker 2: checks many of the boxes and that ideology seems to

1235
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:52,600
Speaker 2: kind of crack and also now ish, you know, listen ish,

1236
01:07:52,640 --> 01:07:55,640
Speaker 2: but the idea of being radicalized online or just feeling

1237
01:07:55,680 --> 01:07:58,760
Speaker 2: so excluded in the world that somehow you find your

1238
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 2: people who violent online because you feel so disconnected from

1239
01:08:04,160 --> 01:08:04,800
Speaker 2: the real world.

1240
01:08:05,160 --> 01:08:07,840
Speaker 4: Right, you know, there was an attack in Canada in

1241
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:12,600
Speaker 4: twenty eighteen. Alec Menison killed eleven people and injured fifteen

1242
01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:16,520
Speaker 4: others in Toronto, and he drove this van into pedestrians.

1243
01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:20,000
Speaker 4: And before the attack, before this happened, he posted on

1244
01:08:20,040 --> 01:08:21,760
Speaker 4: his Facebook profile that said this, and I'm going to

1245
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:25,519
Speaker 4: read it exactly because it's important I get right private recruit,

1246
01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:29,799
Speaker 4: medicine Infantry zero zero zero one zero. Wishing to speak

1247
01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:33,360
Speaker 4: to Sergeant four Chan please. The in cell rebellion has

1248
01:08:33,400 --> 01:08:37,080
Speaker 4: already begun. We will overthrow all the Chads and Stacy's

1249
01:08:37,360 --> 01:08:41,679
Speaker 4: all hail the Supreme Gentleman, Elliott Roger and four Chan.

1250
01:08:41,840 --> 01:08:43,240
Speaker 4: If you don't know what four chan is, it's like

1251
01:08:43,240 --> 01:08:46,680
Speaker 4: an image board. It's anonymous. The threads only last a

1252
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:50,320
Speaker 4: while and they disappear, so it's frequently visited by in

1253
01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:54,080
Speaker 4: cell types to post the most horrific images and never

1254
01:08:54,120 --> 01:08:58,000
Speaker 4: be caught, so you know, he's he's referencing these dark

1255
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:00,679
Speaker 4: corners of the Internet that these cells hangout.

1256
01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:04,639
Speaker 6: Woof yeah, and he I mean you mentioned Saint Elliott's

1257
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:07,679
Speaker 6: day and then also his manifesto I know has been

1258
01:09:08,520 --> 01:09:10,480
Speaker 6: just widely also revered.

1259
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:12,720
Speaker 3: Elliott Roger also stated.

1260
01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:15,599
Speaker 6: Women should not be given rights right their wickedness needs

1261
01:09:15,640 --> 01:09:19,360
Speaker 6: to be contained to avoid the risk of humanity and

1262
01:09:19,560 --> 01:09:23,559
Speaker 6: quote falling into degeneracy. Can you describe for anyone who

1263
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:26,840
Speaker 6: hasn't seen the video, can you sort of describe the

1264
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:29,639
Speaker 6: video that of Elliott Roger sitting in his car?

1265
01:09:30,240 --> 01:09:32,599
Speaker 3: Are you trying to me? It's so scary? Yeah?

1266
01:09:33,040 --> 01:09:35,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I yeah, he's just sitting in his car,

1267
01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:38,160
Speaker 4: and it's kind of like the Golden Hour, right, It's

1268
01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:40,880
Speaker 4: it's like the Beautiful Beach is kind of in the scene.

1269
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:42,280
Speaker 4: I think it's in the scene. I haven't watched it

1270
01:09:42,280 --> 01:09:44,680
Speaker 4: in a really long time, you guys. But he's just

1271
01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:47,680
Speaker 4: kind of going through his manifesto. Really, he's summarizing his

1272
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:52,160
Speaker 4: manifesto and he's lamenting about how unfair life has been

1273
01:09:52,160 --> 01:09:56,160
Speaker 4: to him. And in cells really do believe that they're gentlemen.

1274
01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:59,639
Speaker 4: You know, you'll often see like kind of like memes

1275
01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:02,960
Speaker 4: about like guys and fedoras saying I'm a nice guy.

1276
01:10:03,200 --> 01:10:06,360
Speaker 4: That's how they are. They think that they are very

1277
01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:11,400
Speaker 4: deserving of a stacy, Okay, And so he's just kind

1278
01:10:11,400 --> 01:10:15,160
Speaker 4: of lamenting about, you know, how his life has been

1279
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:19,080
Speaker 4: marred by all these outside influences that have nothing to

1280
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:21,760
Speaker 4: do with him. It's not his fault that he's a

1281
01:10:21,840 --> 01:10:25,080
Speaker 4: short guy who can't, you know, meet women. It's the

1282
01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:28,559
Speaker 4: women's fault for not finding him attractive. And no matter

1283
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:31,720
Speaker 4: how many times he tries to looks Max, which is

1284
01:10:31,760 --> 01:10:34,920
Speaker 4: another thing in sales, do they looks Max and mog

1285
01:10:35,960 --> 01:10:37,800
Speaker 4: No matter what he does, the only thing he can

1286
01:10:37,840 --> 01:10:40,439
Speaker 4: do is be rich, and he can't even do that

1287
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:43,519
Speaker 4: right because he's spending all his money on lottery tickets. Like.

1288
01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:44,920
Speaker 3: It's just a crazy.

1289
01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:46,840
Speaker 4: Video and to sum it up in just like a

1290
01:10:46,840 --> 01:10:49,519
Speaker 4: really short time is kind of hard. But I'm doing

1291
01:10:49,520 --> 01:10:51,599
Speaker 4: the best I can. It's just it's just a crazy

1292
01:10:51,640 --> 01:10:53,479
Speaker 4: It's it's out on YouTube. You'd have to go watch it.

1293
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:55,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, it really is. It's astounding.

1294
01:10:55,960 --> 01:11:00,240
Speaker 6: And also, honestly, I'm rather astounded by how I don't

1295
01:11:00,240 --> 01:11:03,719
Speaker 6: know if you'd call it calm, his visage is or.

1296
01:11:04,000 --> 01:11:07,080
Speaker 3: If it's just I don't know before the rage boils up.

1297
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:08,320
Speaker 3: But it's striking.

1298
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:10,720
Speaker 4: It's striking, it is, and I don't know that we're

1299
01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:13,120
Speaker 4: ever going to quite listen, We're not in celts.

1300
01:11:13,120 --> 01:11:14,360
Speaker 3: How are we going to understand it?

1301
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:17,240
Speaker 4: But you know, stick around. This is to your crime Tonight.

1302
01:11:17,240 --> 01:11:19,479
Speaker 4: We're going to be talking about this and much more.

1303
01:11:20,040 --> 01:11:21,639
Speaker 4: Keep it right here at True Crime Tonight. We're talking

1304
01:11:21,720 --> 01:11:35,439
Speaker 4: true crime all the time. Thank you for joining us.

1305
01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:38,719
Speaker 4: We are going to be diving into the Noah presgo

1306
01:11:38,920 --> 01:11:41,280
Speaker 4: Grow case. And it's a case that Joseph has actually

1307
01:11:41,320 --> 01:11:43,439
Speaker 4: talked to me about before, and I've seen a lot

1308
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:45,519
Speaker 4: a little bit on social media, but I don't know

1309
01:11:45,760 --> 01:11:48,240
Speaker 4: a lot a lot about it, but it seems like

1310
01:11:48,280 --> 01:11:50,519
Speaker 4: there's some kind of cover up and I'm all about it.

1311
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:53,479
Speaker 4: So I am dying to hear about what you have

1312
01:11:53,520 --> 01:11:55,800
Speaker 4: to say about this. Tell me about Noah Presgrove.

1313
01:11:56,400 --> 01:11:59,720
Speaker 5: You know, for me, we've been covering this. I've been

1314
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:03,839
Speaker 5: on the case for I don't know, essentially since it's happened,

1315
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:06,920
Speaker 5: because it was so markedly bizarre. You've got a young

1316
01:12:06,920 --> 01:12:09,720
Speaker 5: man who's only nineteen years of age, and this is

1317
01:12:09,840 --> 01:12:13,400
Speaker 5: actually to give a geographically kind of orient people where

1318
01:12:13,400 --> 01:12:16,880
Speaker 5: this is. This is in an agricultural based area in

1319
01:12:16,920 --> 01:12:22,280
Speaker 5: southern Oklahoma, but it's not too far away as the

1320
01:12:22,360 --> 01:12:25,760
Speaker 5: crow flies from the Dallas area, So you're just I

1321
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:28,639
Speaker 5: mean literally the county of Butts, Texas that he's from.

1322
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:32,519
Speaker 5: That gives you an idea kind of isolated. And that's

1323
01:12:32,520 --> 01:12:38,400
Speaker 5: important here because you know, when Noah's body was found,

1324
01:12:38,880 --> 01:12:45,160
Speaker 5: he was lying just off of a roadway and it's

1325
01:12:45,280 --> 01:12:51,639
Speaker 5: very sad. He's nude, with the exception of a pair

1326
01:12:51,680 --> 01:12:57,160
Speaker 5: of mismatch shoes. One was like a hey dude and

1327
01:12:57,200 --> 01:13:01,280
Speaker 5: the other was some kind of sneaker, and some of

1328
01:13:01,320 --> 01:13:05,080
Speaker 5: his clothing was found on side the road, neatly folded,

1329
01:13:05,240 --> 01:13:08,280
Speaker 5: not too far away from him. And so he's just

1330
01:13:08,280 --> 01:13:10,519
Speaker 5: got massive injuries. And I think a lot of people,

1331
01:13:11,760 --> 01:13:15,280
Speaker 5: a lot of people assumed that, you know, he was

1332
01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:18,479
Speaker 5: struck by vehicle and that that accounts for these injuries.

1333
01:13:18,479 --> 01:13:22,479
Speaker 5: But he's got he's got injuries that are on multiple

1334
01:13:22,479 --> 01:13:25,599
Speaker 5: planes of his body, from literally his feet to the

1335
01:13:25,600 --> 01:13:27,280
Speaker 5: top of his head. As a matter of fact, top

1336
01:13:27,280 --> 01:13:29,680
Speaker 5: of his head is missing. There was a bit of

1337
01:13:29,720 --> 01:13:34,439
Speaker 5: his scalp that was found literally on his buttock, and

1338
01:13:34,479 --> 01:13:36,200
Speaker 5: another piece of a scalp that was out in the

1339
01:13:36,240 --> 01:13:36,960
Speaker 5: middle of the road.

1340
01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:39,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, and his clothes were folded neatly.

1341
01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:43,599
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah. And various teeth as well have been knocked out.

1342
01:13:43,640 --> 01:13:45,639
Speaker 5: They were found scattered about the road and he's got

1343
01:13:45,640 --> 01:13:48,960
Speaker 5: cracked teeth. You know, some of these things in isolation

1344
01:13:49,320 --> 01:13:53,719
Speaker 5: are you would expect to see with a motor vehicle accident. Okay,

1345
01:13:53,880 --> 01:13:57,360
Speaker 5: and those probably everybody in the sound of my voice

1346
01:13:57,400 --> 01:13:59,519
Speaker 5: is at least had a fender bender at some point time.

1347
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:01,800
Speaker 5: You know what it feels like. But if you're a

1348
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:04,920
Speaker 5: pedestrian versus a vehicle, it's very violent. As you can imagine.

1349
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:06,760
Speaker 5: There's a number of things that happened to your body

1350
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:09,280
Speaker 5: and go over the vehicle. You can be cast aside

1351
01:14:09,560 --> 01:14:12,240
Speaker 5: with a bumper strike, or you can go under the vehicle,

1352
01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:17,080
Speaker 5: which is what we refer to as they sustain rollover injuries.

1353
01:14:17,080 --> 01:14:21,120
Speaker 5: It's like being in a tumble dryer. And so there's

1354
01:14:21,160 --> 01:14:25,920
Speaker 5: certain things that we look for. To date, the medical

1355
01:14:25,920 --> 01:14:31,320
Speaker 5: examiner in Oklahoma's left this case undetermamined and you know,

1356
01:14:31,360 --> 01:14:33,479
Speaker 5: we're two years down ranged from it. And the reason

1357
01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:36,960
Speaker 5: I wanted y'all my friends to hear about this young

1358
01:14:37,040 --> 01:14:42,560
Speaker 5: man is that his family has recently filed a lawsuit

1359
01:14:43,400 --> 01:14:46,200
Speaker 5: because they just want answers. They don't feel as though

1360
01:14:46,240 --> 01:14:49,599
Speaker 5: that they're getting answers, answers in regards to NOSEDA.

1361
01:14:49,840 --> 01:14:52,519
Speaker 2: How could they There are no answers that they're getting

1362
01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:52,840
Speaker 2: at all.

1363
01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:57,559
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's really not. They got their boys remains back,

1364
01:14:58,000 --> 01:15:00,760
Speaker 5: and of course they have uestion, so I think a

1365
01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:04,719
Speaker 5: lot of people do, and they want to try to understand.

1366
01:15:04,760 --> 01:15:09,439
Speaker 5: He had been at a party at this home. And guys,

1367
01:15:09,479 --> 01:15:12,240
Speaker 5: this party was over a long holiday weekend. I think

1368
01:15:12,280 --> 01:15:12,920
Speaker 5: it's Labor Day.

1369
01:15:13,120 --> 01:15:14,559
Speaker 3: Labor Day weekend, Yeah.

1370
01:15:14,439 --> 01:15:18,519
Speaker 5: Labor Day weekend, twenty twenty three, and parties started, y'all.

1371
01:15:18,560 --> 01:15:22,960
Speaker 5: The party started on that Friday prior to and they were,

1372
01:15:23,280 --> 01:15:25,000
Speaker 5: you know, putting the hammer down. They were partying all

1373
01:15:25,000 --> 01:15:27,160
Speaker 5: weekend long. There's a lot of drinking. Of course, Noah's

1374
01:15:27,240 --> 01:15:30,880
Speaker 5: under age, he's nineteen years of age. There was an

1375
01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:33,679
Speaker 5: adult in the house, maybe a couple along the way,

1376
01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:38,280
Speaker 5: and a large bevy of friends that were there as well,

1377
01:15:38,920 --> 01:15:41,840
Speaker 5: and they were up to tom foolery. You know. They

1378
01:15:41,880 --> 01:15:45,000
Speaker 5: had been on an ATV. There had been an ATDV accident.

1379
01:15:45,120 --> 01:15:47,800
Speaker 5: I think Noah was operating in the vehicle. There was

1380
01:15:48,040 --> 01:15:52,080
Speaker 5: an argument apparently. I don't know how adjacent to that

1381
01:15:52,120 --> 01:15:55,520
Speaker 5: event it was, but there was a lot of dynamics

1382
01:15:55,520 --> 01:15:58,040
Speaker 5: that were going on. And I think that, you know,

1383
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:03,360
Speaker 5: speaking for the family on any level, don't misconstrue what

1384
01:16:03,400 --> 01:16:06,639
Speaker 5: I'm saying, but I think the family they want every

1385
01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:11,000
Speaker 5: person involved in this that was there, they want a

1386
01:16:11,040 --> 01:16:14,600
Speaker 5: statement from them under oath, you know, in a deposition,

1387
01:16:14,840 --> 01:16:17,040
Speaker 5: I would imagine, try to get to the truth.

1388
01:16:18,200 --> 01:16:21,720
Speaker 6: I just for people who aren't very familiar with this

1389
01:16:22,080 --> 01:16:23,880
Speaker 6: tragic case, I just want to provide a little bit

1390
01:16:23,880 --> 01:16:27,880
Speaker 6: more background information to follow all of this important information

1391
01:16:27,960 --> 01:16:33,800
Speaker 6: you're giving us. So, as mentioned, Noah Presgrove's family recently

1392
01:16:33,840 --> 01:16:38,439
Speaker 6: filed a wrongful a civil wrongful death lawsuit, and in

1393
01:16:38,520 --> 01:16:42,559
Speaker 6: it it accuses seven individuals who were at this multi

1394
01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:46,080
Speaker 6: day party, as well as a local convenience store, for

1395
01:16:46,160 --> 01:16:50,000
Speaker 6: playing a role in his death. Because nineteen, you know,

1396
01:16:50,439 --> 01:16:54,960
Speaker 6: everyone was underage or the people mentioned. So, the suit

1397
01:16:55,120 --> 01:16:58,240
Speaker 6: claims that Noah was beaten to death by one or

1398
01:16:58,280 --> 01:17:02,599
Speaker 6: more of the defendant and apparently this was after an

1399
01:17:02,680 --> 01:17:07,600
Speaker 6: ATV accident caused tension at the party, and the allegation

1400
01:17:07,760 --> 01:17:11,040
Speaker 6: is there was a civil conspiracy to conceal the truth.

1401
01:17:12,280 --> 01:17:16,000
Speaker 6: Those that have been named in this civil suit include

1402
01:17:16,760 --> 01:17:20,599
Speaker 6: Noah's best friend, party hosts, family members of the host,

1403
01:17:21,040 --> 01:17:25,599
Speaker 6: and again that convenience store providing alcohol and this seems

1404
01:17:25,680 --> 01:17:30,000
Speaker 6: convenience for providing alcohol to underage guests.

1405
01:17:30,080 --> 01:17:30,840
Speaker 3: That's right, body.

1406
01:17:31,439 --> 01:17:37,479
Speaker 6: Yeah, and the people who have been named, one of

1407
01:17:37,520 --> 01:17:41,960
Speaker 6: whom was Noah's best friend. This really is a little

1408
01:17:41,960 --> 01:17:46,800
Speaker 6: heartbreaking to me. Their legal Their legal response argues that

1409
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:51,240
Speaker 6: Noah himself assumed the risk by drinking excessively and that

1410
01:17:51,439 --> 01:17:55,240
Speaker 6: he himself was negligent and that contributed to the fatal outcome.

1411
01:17:56,760 --> 01:18:01,040
Speaker 6: So this is I can't imagine what's happening these parents, but.

1412
01:18:03,760 --> 01:18:06,000
Speaker 3: My best friend, Yeah, think about that.

1413
01:18:06,040 --> 01:18:08,360
Speaker 2: This is these are people who you know outside of

1414
01:18:08,400 --> 01:18:12,800
Speaker 2: the convenience store, you know, person who sold the alcohol.

1415
01:18:13,200 --> 01:18:16,599
Speaker 2: These are people that Noah knew very well. Perhaps even

1416
01:18:16,640 --> 01:18:19,880
Speaker 2: the parents all knew one another. Noah's nineteen years old.

1417
01:18:20,320 --> 01:18:23,599
Speaker 2: I mean, frankly, who hasn't had a weekend of boozing

1418
01:18:23,680 --> 01:18:26,400
Speaker 2: back in those days where it starts on Friday and

1419
01:18:26,520 --> 01:18:30,479
Speaker 2: you know, you know, you're rolling into Monday hoping for

1420
01:18:30,520 --> 01:18:33,960
Speaker 2: the best. This is no way to turn up and

1421
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:36,080
Speaker 2: you would think that people that were at this party

1422
01:18:36,120 --> 01:18:39,000
Speaker 2: would be looking out for their friend and wanting to

1423
01:18:39,000 --> 01:18:39,799
Speaker 2: find justice.

1424
01:18:40,920 --> 01:18:44,200
Speaker 5: Well yeah, and also look full disclosure. I have to,

1425
01:18:44,760 --> 01:18:48,519
Speaker 5: I have to, you know, reveal that Noah's blood alcohol

1426
01:18:48,600 --> 01:18:52,479
Speaker 5: level was almost twice a legal limit, so very it was.

1427
01:18:52,760 --> 01:18:56,040
Speaker 5: I think it was like point one four if I'm

1428
01:18:56,080 --> 01:18:59,160
Speaker 5: not mistaken, as opposed to the point zero A you

1429
01:18:59,200 --> 01:18:59,880
Speaker 5: know that you normally have.

1430
01:19:00,280 --> 01:19:03,840
Speaker 4: Are there any pictures of this party that we that

1431
01:19:03,880 --> 01:19:06,160
Speaker 4: are out in the public, Like, are there pictures of

1432
01:19:06,240 --> 01:19:09,920
Speaker 4: him the day he died? Like is he wearing mismatched shoes? Like?

1433
01:19:11,080 --> 01:19:11,960
Speaker 3: Is this meat?

1434
01:19:11,960 --> 01:19:14,240
Speaker 4: Because he was so drunk he didn't really like is

1435
01:19:14,240 --> 01:19:17,559
Speaker 4: is there any documented history about it?

1436
01:19:17,600 --> 01:19:19,920
Speaker 2: Even if you are at a party and somebody you

1437
01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:23,040
Speaker 2: love is just you know, banana is drunk. They've been

1438
01:19:23,120 --> 01:19:25,639
Speaker 2: drinking all weekend there, they haven't been eating.

1439
01:19:26,040 --> 01:19:31,280
Speaker 3: It was very dehydrated. This is you all of last week.

1440
01:19:32,240 --> 01:19:34,439
Speaker 2: We would never let this happen to you, no because

1441
01:19:34,520 --> 01:19:36,920
Speaker 2: your friends A would look out for you. And then

1442
01:19:37,040 --> 01:19:39,720
Speaker 2: God forbid, there is something lost in the sauce and

1443
01:19:39,800 --> 01:19:43,479
Speaker 2: tragedy hits and you know one of your own turns

1444
01:19:43,560 --> 01:19:47,040
Speaker 2: up this way, wouldn't you be bending over backward. Now

1445
01:19:47,120 --> 01:19:49,840
Speaker 2: I am allegedly, allegedly allegedly, we are not, you know,

1446
01:19:49,960 --> 01:19:53,200
Speaker 2: pointing fingers, but it's it's amazing to me. And we've

1447
01:19:53,200 --> 01:19:57,080
Speaker 2: seen cases like this before, unfortunately, where a very large

1448
01:19:57,120 --> 01:19:59,200
Speaker 2: group of people are at a party and then that

1449
01:19:59,360 --> 01:20:02,040
Speaker 2: very large group but people goes missing when the party

1450
01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:06,200
Speaker 2: goes to court or when it's time to really remind

1451
01:20:06,240 --> 01:20:08,400
Speaker 2: everybody would happen that night, even if it was a

1452
01:20:08,439 --> 01:20:12,680
Speaker 2: messy night. Okay, let's just piece together the facts so

1453
01:20:12,720 --> 01:20:16,639
Speaker 2: that you know, Noah's poor family can at least get

1454
01:20:16,680 --> 01:20:17,560
Speaker 2: some resolution.

1455
01:20:18,040 --> 01:20:21,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, but seven people keeping a secret, like it's.

1456
01:20:20,880 --> 01:20:24,320
Speaker 2: Impossible to imagine because it seems impossible.

1457
01:20:24,320 --> 01:20:27,040
Speaker 4: But I mean, it also seems impossible that somebody would

1458
01:20:27,040 --> 01:20:30,240
Speaker 4: get hit by a car and their clothes would be

1459
01:20:30,240 --> 01:20:33,880
Speaker 4: folded neatly on the side of the road. That's crazy.

1460
01:20:34,000 --> 01:20:35,200
Speaker 3: That's very strange.

1461
01:20:35,280 --> 01:20:41,080
Speaker 6: And bodies well about the pictures investigators as well as

1462
01:20:41,120 --> 01:20:47,720
Speaker 6: the family's public private investigator. Rather, they have gathered some evidence,

1463
01:20:48,240 --> 01:20:52,280
Speaker 6: some texts, some videos, some snapchats, but there is no

1464
01:20:52,600 --> 01:20:55,880
Speaker 6: public confirmation of what actually happened at the events. So

1465
01:20:55,920 --> 01:20:58,920
Speaker 6: that's being close holes And I guess we'll probably come

1466
01:20:58,960 --> 01:21:04,880
Speaker 6: out in the civil try, m'd imagine, and Joseph, is

1467
01:21:04,920 --> 01:21:08,759
Speaker 6: there is there anything? Is there anything else that people

1468
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:10,360
Speaker 6: need to know about this case?

1469
01:21:10,360 --> 01:21:11,120
Speaker 3: It really is.

1470
01:21:11,760 --> 01:21:14,400
Speaker 5: Yeah. I think I think probably the most striking thing

1471
01:21:14,479 --> 01:21:21,040
Speaker 5: here is the violence. The violence that's that's part of this, uh,

1472
01:21:21,240 --> 01:21:25,680
Speaker 5: you know, the level of trauma that this kid sustained.

1473
01:21:26,360 --> 01:21:30,960
Speaker 5: And one of the one of the real problems is that, Uh.

1474
01:21:31,400 --> 01:21:33,920
Speaker 5: I think most people look at this and they think,

1475
01:21:34,120 --> 01:21:40,080
Speaker 5: how in the world, uh could anyone could anyone believe

1476
01:21:40,439 --> 01:21:45,679
Speaker 5: that this was singly, singularly a one off event, uh,

1477
01:21:45,880 --> 01:21:48,160
Speaker 5: where he was merely struck by a vehicle. And I

1478
01:21:48,160 --> 01:21:50,960
Speaker 5: think Tom will tell we'll we'll learn more as time

1479
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:51,439
Speaker 5: goes by.

1480
01:21:52,960 --> 01:21:56,760
Speaker 3: Hmmm. Wow, it's just a lot. It's a lot.

1481
01:21:57,400 --> 01:22:00,000
Speaker 4: No, it definitely definitely is a lot. You're listening to

1482
01:22:00,040 --> 01:22:01,680
Speaker 4: True Crime tonight and I heart Rater where we talk

1483
01:22:01,760 --> 01:22:03,880
Speaker 4: true crime all the time. I'm Body Moven and I'm

1484
01:22:03,880 --> 01:22:08,040
Speaker 4: here with Stephanie Leidecker, Joseph Scott Morgan, and Courtney Armstrong

1485
01:22:08,479 --> 01:22:11,320
Speaker 4: and we're you know, we've been talking about Noah Presgrove,

1486
01:22:11,400 --> 01:22:13,320
Speaker 4: which case I kind of knew about, but I'm learning

1487
01:22:13,320 --> 01:22:16,479
Speaker 4: a lot more right now, and I understand we're going

1488
01:22:16,520 --> 01:22:17,759
Speaker 4: to be taking a talkback.

1489
01:22:17,840 --> 01:22:18,719
Speaker 3: Let's take a talkback.

1490
01:22:19,760 --> 01:22:26,479
Speaker 8: Hi Thansley from Canada. My question is for Joseph Scott Morgan. Joseph,

1491
01:22:26,600 --> 01:22:30,880
Speaker 8: I was listening to your other podcast, body Bags, which

1492
01:22:30,960 --> 01:22:34,479
Speaker 8: I heard about from this show and I love. I

1493
01:22:34,640 --> 01:22:39,200
Speaker 8: was listening to this week's episode about Travis Decker and

1494
01:22:39,439 --> 01:22:44,519
Speaker 8: you mentioned there was his bloody handprint in the truck,

1495
01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:48,280
Speaker 8: and I was wondering if you had any thoughts on

1496
01:22:48,360 --> 01:22:51,720
Speaker 8: where that came from. Anyways, looking forward to having you

1497
01:22:51,760 --> 01:22:53,080
Speaker 8: back on Sunday. Bye.

1498
01:22:54,640 --> 01:22:58,000
Speaker 3: Thanks Ames Lee always so from you. Look at this

1499
01:22:58,080 --> 01:22:59,960
Speaker 3: little cross pollination of the pie.

1500
01:23:00,720 --> 01:23:03,760
Speaker 2: Joseph, Well, I mean, is that too much or is

1501
01:23:03,760 --> 01:23:04,360
Speaker 2: that too much?

1502
01:23:04,400 --> 01:23:06,639
Speaker 3: Ainsley? No, no, no, not at all.

1503
01:23:06,680 --> 01:23:10,960
Speaker 5: And thank you for solicit Canada. Thank you. Wow, we're

1504
01:23:11,000 --> 01:23:12,120
Speaker 5: really making around, Like.

1505
01:23:12,240 --> 01:23:14,160
Speaker 3: She says body Bags. I know.

1506
01:23:15,760 --> 01:23:19,639
Speaker 5: Well, it's important to know that, you know. I think

1507
01:23:19,680 --> 01:23:22,680
Speaker 5: that this was probably I don't want to use the

1508
01:23:22,680 --> 01:23:27,360
Speaker 5: word Titanic struggle, but I think that Travis Decker was

1509
01:23:27,400 --> 01:23:31,040
Speaker 5: in a very distressed state of mind. Somehow he has

1510
01:23:31,080 --> 01:23:33,599
Speaker 5: injured himself. I don't know if maybe he cut his

1511
01:23:33,680 --> 01:23:36,559
Speaker 5: hand when he was trying to, let's face it, take

1512
01:23:36,600 --> 01:23:40,120
Speaker 5: the lives of these precious little girls or not. It's

1513
01:23:40,200 --> 01:23:43,519
Speaker 5: hard to know, but I do know that that there

1514
01:23:43,640 --> 01:23:47,400
Speaker 5: was deposition of blood that tied back to him. And

1515
01:23:47,439 --> 01:23:51,400
Speaker 5: we have to remember also contained inside of those bags

1516
01:23:51,920 --> 01:23:56,080
Speaker 5: that he used, that he weaponized. Inside of those bags,

1517
01:23:56,800 --> 01:24:00,120
Speaker 5: he his DNA was found in there, almost like he

1518
01:24:00,120 --> 01:24:02,439
Speaker 5: has slipped his hands in there to pull them down

1519
01:24:03,080 --> 01:24:06,519
Speaker 5: over these children's heads. And same DNA is found on

1520
01:24:06,560 --> 01:24:10,000
Speaker 5: the outside of the backseat, I believe. So, you know,

1521
01:24:10,080 --> 01:24:14,920
Speaker 5: that's certainly an interesting bit here with that, But again

1522
01:24:15,040 --> 01:24:18,000
Speaker 5: we haven't found his remains. There were bones that were

1523
01:24:18,000 --> 01:24:21,519
Speaker 5: found because those bones were animal bones and they were

1524
01:24:21,520 --> 01:24:24,960
Speaker 5: in proximity. And look, I got to tell you, I

1525
01:24:25,000 --> 01:24:28,759
Speaker 5: think that anywhere you go you're going to find animal

1526
01:24:28,800 --> 01:24:32,719
Speaker 5: bones in a wilderness area. But what it does show

1527
01:24:32,760 --> 01:24:34,880
Speaker 5: is that the police and the investigators are doing their job.

1528
01:24:34,960 --> 01:24:39,800
Speaker 5: They're literally still looking and they're turning over every stone possible.

1529
01:24:40,120 --> 01:24:42,639
Speaker 4: I mean, a bloody handprint, though, that to me means

1530
01:24:42,640 --> 01:24:44,760
Speaker 4: like a lot of blood, Like it's not like he

1531
01:24:44,880 --> 01:24:47,439
Speaker 4: just cut himself on a zip top, right, yeah, or

1532
01:24:47,479 --> 01:24:48,240
Speaker 4: something right like.

1533
01:24:48,320 --> 01:24:49,640
Speaker 3: That's he had to.

1534
01:24:49,640 --> 01:24:51,639
Speaker 2: Have cut himself with the weapon that he was using,

1535
01:24:51,720 --> 01:24:54,680
Speaker 2: and as a result put that print on the vehicle.

1536
01:24:54,400 --> 01:24:55,880
Speaker 3: Maybe to cut rope or something.

1537
01:24:56,000 --> 01:24:59,200
Speaker 2: I would imply that he was slightly nearby, because that

1538
01:24:59,200 --> 01:25:01,600
Speaker 2: would be kind of a staggering injury. And we know

1539
01:25:01,720 --> 01:25:05,120
Speaker 2: he doesn't have medication and was clearly dealing with mental

1540
01:25:05,160 --> 01:25:08,840
Speaker 2: illness and and and and you know this level of

1541
01:25:08,880 --> 01:25:12,880
Speaker 2: wilderness and brush that he would be trying to escape through.

1542
01:25:13,320 --> 01:25:17,240
Speaker 2: He has either escaped to Canada, as his you know,

1543
01:25:17,880 --> 01:25:21,200
Speaker 2: his search would suggest, because that's what he was researching

1544
01:25:21,240 --> 01:25:26,519
Speaker 2: prior to the murders, or maybe those injuries you know,

1545
01:25:26,640 --> 01:25:27,880
Speaker 2: got the best.

1546
01:25:28,600 --> 01:25:30,920
Speaker 3: Terrible. This is a terrible I.

1547
01:25:30,880 --> 01:25:33,599
Speaker 4: Still can't believe that he's not been found. I mean

1548
01:25:33,960 --> 01:25:38,800
Speaker 4: this happened in June. Yeah, where three daughters at the campground, right, and.

1549
01:25:38,800 --> 01:25:44,200
Speaker 2: His poor mother, poor extraordinary eulogy, and yeah, I just

1550
01:25:44,280 --> 01:25:47,240
Speaker 2: need some closure. I wish we were ending on a

1551
01:25:47,320 --> 01:25:50,479
Speaker 2: little bit of a higher note here, because Travis Deckerman

1552
01:25:50,600 --> 01:25:52,320
Speaker 2: really knows how to bring the room down.

1553
01:25:52,680 --> 01:25:55,240
Speaker 3: On all fronts. Oh boy.

1554
01:25:55,360 --> 01:25:58,120
Speaker 2: But like, let's just hope law enforcement is able to

1555
01:25:58,160 --> 01:26:03,080
Speaker 2: bring him in if in fact he's still alive. You know, Joseph,

1556
01:26:03,120 --> 01:26:06,479
Speaker 2: there is something incredibly comforting. I don't know what the

1557
01:26:06,640 --> 01:26:08,759
Speaker 2: right word is but I'm going to go with comforting

1558
01:26:08,800 --> 01:26:11,320
Speaker 2: because that's how I find you. When you come on,

1559
01:26:11,720 --> 01:26:14,320
Speaker 2: and certainly in coming on in times that the world

1560
01:26:14,400 --> 01:26:17,360
Speaker 2: seems a little upside down, or a little sideways or

1561
01:26:17,479 --> 01:26:21,080
Speaker 2: just a little confused, you somehow make us all feel

1562
01:26:21,080 --> 01:26:24,200
Speaker 2: a bit more grounded, a little bit more settled and

1563
01:26:24,280 --> 01:26:28,080
Speaker 2: in control. So thank you for being here with us again.

1564
01:26:28,200 --> 01:26:31,960
Speaker 2: Body Bags the Potty Podcast three times a week. I'm

1565
01:26:32,000 --> 01:26:35,240
Speaker 2: crazy for the two of you, Body Welcome back, Courtney

1566
01:26:35,800 --> 01:26:39,479
Speaker 2: ah Wow, And for everybody listening, please let's have a

1567
01:26:39,520 --> 01:26:42,960
Speaker 2: great week. Sending you so much love. Please be saved

1568
01:26:43,439 --> 01:26:45,080
Speaker 2: True Crime Tonight Back