WEBVTT - Controversy Over Harvard Professor Joining Weinstein Defense 0:00:03.520 --> 0:00:07.040 Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every 0:00:07.120 --> 0:00:09.680 day we bring you insight and analysis into the most 0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:12.200 important legal news of the day. You can find more 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:16.160 episodes at the Bloomberg Law Podcast, on Apple podcast, SoundCloud, 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:20.360 and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. Harvard law professors 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:24.959 have long represented unpopular causes and notorious defendants O. J. 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:28.680 Simpson to name just one. After all, every defendant has 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:32.120 a constitutional right to an attorney. But now a Harvard 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:35.320 law professor joining the defense team for Harvey Weinstein is 0:00:35.360 --> 0:00:39.640 causing controversy at Harvard, from protests and petitions calling for 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:42.920 his aust as the Winthrop House faculty dean, to a 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:45.920 review of the living climate among the undergraduates at the 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:49.839 house by the college. Harvard Law professor Ronald Sullivan is 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:53.760 a renowned criminal defense attorney who represented Aaron Hernandez and 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:56.800 his acquittal on a double murder charge and helped free 0:00:56.880 --> 0:01:00.520 thousands of wrongfully incarcerated inmates in new or lends after 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:04.560 Hurricane Katrina. He's also the first African American to be 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:07.560 named as a faculty dean of an undergraduate house in 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:11.200 Harvard's history. Fifty four Harvard Law professor assigned a letter 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:16.240 supporting Sullivan and his legal advocacy in service of constitutional principles, 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:19.720 joining me as Harvard Law Professor Elizabeth Bartholett, one of 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:22.480 the organizers of that letter of support, tell me a 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:26.679 little bit about Professor Sullivan's legal work. Professor Sullivan has 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:30.440 a long history as a criminal defense attorney. He was 0:01:31.120 --> 0:01:35.080 with the Public Defender's Office in Washington, d C. Representing 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:39.160 indigent people accused of crimes, and at Harvard Law School, 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:43.160 where he has an appointment on the faculty, he helps 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:47.200 run programs for students who are interested in doing criminal 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:50.680 defense work. He's also had a practice on the side 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:54.080 of representing various people accused of all kinds of crimes 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:56.760 over the years, so that's a large part of his persona. 0:01:56.840 --> 0:02:00.800 He's also helped create systems for the representation of poor people, 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:04.240 so is a long history as a criminal defense attorney, 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:08.000 most of it devoted to representing poor people who otherwise 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:11.360 wouldn't get a defense. So he agrees to become part 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:16.560 of Harvey Weinstein's defense team and students start to complain 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:21.160 what are their concerns One other things. Professor Rowland Friar 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:26.800 another African American professor at the university, was accused of 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:31.079 sexual harassment and has been under investigation by Harvard for that, 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:35.480 and Professor Sullivan also agreed in some capacity to represent 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:39.680 him or advise him, and the students initially objected to 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:45.040 his representation of both Professor Fryer and Harvey Weinstein. Well, 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:48.640 what are the students concerns? Do they not recognize the 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:52.640 constitutional right to have an attorney represent you. I can't 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:55.880 speak for the students, and I think more recently the 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:59.920 students have claimed that they understand people have a right 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:03.519 to criminal defense, but that they're saying that a House 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:09.799 dean doesn't have the right necessarily to represent all people 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:14.080 accused of crimes. So I think they're emphasizing that now. 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:16.840 I stressed that simply to be fear of what the 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:20.160 students are claiming, not because I think their most recent 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:24.919 claim is necessarily true in terms of what they're about, 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:27.480 And in any event, I don't think it's justified as 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:30.720 a reason to be trying to push him out. So 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:33.800 you were one of the professors who circulated a letter 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:37.720 that fifty two Harvard law professors sign. I think it's 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:42.200 fifty four in total. An astounding number. It's just, you know, 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:46.960 the law school faculty is large, but that's astounding number 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:50.600 given that it's almost always impossible to get a member 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:52.800 of the law school faculty to sign something that they 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:55.760 didn't right themselves. So I think it's a very strong 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:59.400 statement of how strongly people on this law faculty feel 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:03.320 about the idea that somebody is being attacked for his 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:08.200 representation of a criminal defendant, and also that Harvard is 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:12.320 taking the position it is on that. So the emphasis 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:15.880 on the letter is really Harvard's role, not the student's role. 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:19.719 The letter recognizes its students have a right to protest. 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:24.239 The letter emphasizes that Harvard should not be hounding Professor 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:28.400 sellisant out based on his representation. And I think I 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:30.800 would just like to emphasize that, you know, I'm one 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:32.919 of the fifty four, and I certainly believe in the letter, 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:37.359 but my own concerns really are very largely with the 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:42.359 role Harvard has played here in that Harvard has done 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:47.800 nothing to discourage or control or sanctioned the student's conduct, 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:51.200 even when it involved graffiti. And you know, it's the 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:54.040 arguable threats that go along with the kind of graffiti 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:57.400 that we're posted Harvard did nothing, It has done nothing 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:02.200 to defend or protect Professor's Sullivan, but it has completely 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:06.320 undermined him. They're clearly, as best I can read what 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:09.000 we're allowed to see, trying to hound him out of 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:13.080 this position and pressure him to resign. And I think 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:18.159 that it's on Harvard's part, a completely on principled position. 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:23.279 Tell me about this climate survey of Winter House Climate 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:27.080 review of winterprice. The climate review appears to be, as 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:29.800 again as best I can read, the tea leaves here 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:34.480 part of Harvard's attempt to drive Professor Sullivan out. So 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:39.720 they are doing something that's extraordinarily rare, and we don't 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:42.240 know of it's being done in another situation where a 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:46.160 Harvard dean has been accused of something or challenged by 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:50.320 the students and it's you know, enormously threatening, is obviously 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:53.159 there are some students in the House who are unhappy, 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:55.479 and Harvard pears to be saying that if there are 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:59.360 enough that are just made quote uncomfortable, then you know, 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:02.800 maybe that's reason to get rid of him as House deeing. 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:07.080 In an interview with New York Magazine, Professor Sullivan said 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:11.240 that he thought this climate review was racially motivated. Do 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:14.839 you agree. I'm not going to say I agree or 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:18.159 disagree with that. I'll just say that he is the 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:22.680 first and is the only African American dean of a 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:26.039 Harvard House, and I know of no other incident of 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:30.640 a dean being driven out. And I will point out 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:33.920 that there seems to be something of a pattern so far. 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:37.680 Visibly a pattern of two is Professor Rowland Friar being 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:42.279 subjected to an ongoing investigation that at least there's one 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:47.920 long investigative reporters piece that indicates that Harvard's challenge to 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:52.400 an attack on Professor Rowland Fryar, a very distinguished economics professor, 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:57.000 is deeply unfair. Um, so we've got that, We've got 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:04.200 Ron Sullivan, and it's is problematic, if small, so far pattern. 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:07.359 I mean, I'm not a criminal defense attorney myself, and 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:10.400 I chose not to be one because honestly, I would 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:15.280 not represent anyone simply because they needed representation. Um, even 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:18.960 though I think everybody deserves some representation. But I'm big 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:23.080 on lawyers exercising their own sort of ethical standards in 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:27.040 deciding whom to represent. And obviously Harvey Weinstein could get 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:32.000 other representation. What I'm concerned with about Harvard is one 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:37.480 that on a complicated issue, it takes a totally simplistic, 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:41.120 one sided position. So the complicated issue is how do 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:46.360 we think about issues of sexual assault and sexual harassment? 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:51.760 And there are in these situations alleged victims and alleged perpetrators, 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:57.680 and it's complicated because victim claims aren't always true and 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:02.360 perpetrators aren't always guilty of everything that they're charged with. 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:07.200 And yet Harvard on this issue appears, at least in 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:12.240 recent many years now, only to take positions when they 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:14.840 can take positions on what looks to be the side 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:20.400 of alleged victims. And Harvard shows zero concern with the rights, 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:27.120 including rights to truth seeking process when they involved alleged perpetrators. 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:31.280 In this recent instance, Professor Sullivan is somebody who has 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:36.000 represented while he's been at Harvard and in the house 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:39.920 being position, he has represented a terrorist, he has represented 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:45.920 a murderer. He has also represented alleged victims of sexual harassment. 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:50.160 And the only problem Harvard has with him is when 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:56.520 he represents an alleged perpetrator of sexual assault. So you know, 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:59.040 there's it's one issue. It's decided to have to be 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:02.720 on the rightically correct side of all the time. That's 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:06.280 all it cares about. I'm wondering if it's because of 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:09.160 the Me too movement and the power of the Me 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:13.479 too movement. It's affected all kinds of people in our society, 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:18.480 from movie stars to politicians to know law professors. Now, absolutely, 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:21.480 you're right, it's the Me too movement. It's the pressure 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:25.880 that students are applying to Harvard that is related to 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:29.640 the Me too movement. Now, there are other people out there, 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:32.320 There are women out there, there are women's rights activists 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:37.280 out there who also thinks true sexual assault, true sexual 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:40.520 harassment is a bad thing and should be addressed and 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:45.760 victims should be treated properly. But not everybody agrees that 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:50.320 any and everyone accused of sexual harassment, or who defends 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:53.600 somebody accused of sexual harassment, you know, is an evil 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:56.000 that should be removed and taken down and fired from 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:59.160 the job, etcetera. So some people think we should address 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:02.920 sexual reressment, but you know, take a more considered position 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:06.560 and consider the rights of those who are accused, because 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:11.280 there might be wrongful accusations. So Harvard is responding to 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:14.160 pressure here. It has pressure from one side, So there's 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:16.600 a me too movement. Yes, it is more sort of 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:20.320 vocal groups who are on the side of almost always 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:24.719 assume the person accused is guilty and go after him 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:27.920 to the max. And that's the pressure they're responding to. 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:31.360 So the loudest students who are rounding the biggest protests 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:34.800 at Harvard's are anti Sullivan. They're not the only ones. 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:37.840 There are other people who have other views that include students. 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:41.319 There were two students who wrote into the Crimson asking 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:44.480 for their letters to be published who were victims of 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:48.520 sexual harassment that Ron Sullivan had represented. The Crimson refused 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:51.920 to publish their letters, So there is pressure there. But 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:56.760 Harvard only wants to respond to the most loud mouthed 0:10:57.080 --> 0:10:59.520 pressure and it is doing that, And yes, that relates 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:03.480 to me to movement. My feeling is that Harvard University 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:07.040 is in a position to stand on principle, not simply 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:10.640 to respond to pressure. And that's all they're doing. And 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:13.719 I think that the student pressure, and yes it's a 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:16.280 sort of a larger pressure beyond the students, that this 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:19.920 fits in with the meetch movement pressure and we want 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:22.800 Harvard to look good and that means get rid of Sulivan. 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:26.280 Thanks for being on Bloomberg Law. That's Harvard Law Professor 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:32.079 Elizabeth Bartha Lett. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Law podcast. 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:36.520 You can subscribe and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:40.480 and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. I'm June Brosso. 0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:44.839 This is Bloomberg. Ya.