1 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: episodes at the Bloomberg Law Podcast, on Apple podcast, SoundCloud, 5 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. Harvard law professors 6 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:24,959 Speaker 1: have long represented unpopular causes and notorious defendants O. J. 7 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: Simpson to name just one. After all, every defendant has 8 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: a constitutional right to an attorney. But now a Harvard 9 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: law professor joining the defense team for Harvey Weinstein is 10 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: causing controversy at Harvard, from protests and petitions calling for 11 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: his aust as the Winthrop House faculty dean, to a 12 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: review of the living climate among the undergraduates at the 13 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: house by the college. Harvard Law professor Ronald Sullivan is 14 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: a renowned criminal defense attorney who represented Aaron Hernandez and 15 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: his acquittal on a double murder charge and helped free 16 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: thousands of wrongfully incarcerated inmates in new or lends after 17 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: Hurricane Katrina. He's also the first African American to be 18 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: named as a faculty dean of an undergraduate house in 19 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: Harvard's history. Fifty four Harvard Law professor assigned a letter 20 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: supporting Sullivan and his legal advocacy in service of constitutional principles, 21 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: joining me as Harvard Law Professor Elizabeth Bartholett, one of 22 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: the organizers of that letter of support, tell me a 23 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: little bit about Professor Sullivan's legal work. Professor Sullivan has 24 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: a long history as a criminal defense attorney. He was 25 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: with the Public Defender's Office in Washington, d C. Representing 26 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: indigent people accused of crimes, and at Harvard Law School, 27 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: where he has an appointment on the faculty, he helps 28 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: run programs for students who are interested in doing criminal 29 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: defense work. He's also had a practice on the side 30 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: of representing various people accused of all kinds of crimes 31 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: over the years, so that's a large part of his persona. 32 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: He's also helped create systems for the representation of poor people, 33 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: so is a long history as a criminal defense attorney, 34 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: most of it devoted to representing poor people who otherwise 35 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: wouldn't get a defense. So he agrees to become part 36 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: of Harvey Weinstein's defense team and students start to complain 37 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: what are their concerns One other things. Professor Rowland Friar 38 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 1: another African American professor at the university, was accused of 39 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 1: sexual harassment and has been under investigation by Harvard for that, 40 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: and Professor Sullivan also agreed in some capacity to represent 41 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: him or advise him, and the students initially objected to 42 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: his representation of both Professor Fryer and Harvey Weinstein. Well, 43 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 1: what are the students concerns? Do they not recognize the 44 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 1: constitutional right to have an attorney represent you. I can't 45 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: speak for the students, and I think more recently the 46 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 1: students have claimed that they understand people have a right 47 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,519 Speaker 1: to criminal defense, but that they're saying that a House 48 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:09,799 Speaker 1: dean doesn't have the right necessarily to represent all people 49 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: accused of crimes. So I think they're emphasizing that now. 50 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: I stressed that simply to be fear of what the 51 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: students are claiming, not because I think their most recent 52 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 1: claim is necessarily true in terms of what they're about, 53 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: And in any event, I don't think it's justified as 54 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: a reason to be trying to push him out. So 55 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: you were one of the professors who circulated a letter 56 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: that fifty two Harvard law professors sign. I think it's 57 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: fifty four in total. An astounding number. It's just, you know, 58 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: the law school faculty is large, but that's astounding number 59 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: given that it's almost always impossible to get a member 60 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: of the law school faculty to sign something that they 61 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: didn't right themselves. So I think it's a very strong 62 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: statement of how strongly people on this law faculty feel 63 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: about the idea that somebody is being attacked for his 64 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: representation of a criminal defendant, and also that Harvard is 65 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: taking the position it is on that. So the emphasis 66 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: on the letter is really Harvard's role, not the student's role. 67 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 1: The letter recognizes its students have a right to protest. 68 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:24,239 Speaker 1: The letter emphasizes that Harvard should not be hounding Professor 69 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: sellisant out based on his representation. And I think I 70 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: would just like to emphasize that, you know, I'm one 71 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:32,919 Speaker 1: of the fifty four, and I certainly believe in the letter, 72 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 1: but my own concerns really are very largely with the 73 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 1: role Harvard has played here in that Harvard has done 74 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: nothing to discourage or control or sanctioned the student's conduct, 75 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: even when it involved graffiti. And you know, it's the 76 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: arguable threats that go along with the kind of graffiti 77 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: that we're posted Harvard did nothing, It has done nothing 78 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: to defend or protect Professor's Sullivan, but it has completely 79 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: undermined him. They're clearly, as best I can read what 80 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: we're allowed to see, trying to hound him out of 81 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: this position and pressure him to resign. And I think 82 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 1: that it's on Harvard's part, a completely on principled position. 83 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 1: Tell me about this climate survey of Winter House Climate 84 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: review of winterprice. The climate review appears to be, as 85 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: again as best I can read, the tea leaves here 86 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 1: part of Harvard's attempt to drive Professor Sullivan out. So 87 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: they are doing something that's extraordinarily rare, and we don't 88 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: know of it's being done in another situation where a 89 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 1: Harvard dean has been accused of something or challenged by 90 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: the students and it's you know, enormously threatening, is obviously 91 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 1: there are some students in the House who are unhappy, 92 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 1: and Harvard pears to be saying that if there are 93 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: enough that are just made quote uncomfortable, then you know, 94 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: maybe that's reason to get rid of him as House deeing. 95 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: In an interview with New York Magazine, Professor Sullivan said 96 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: that he thought this climate review was racially motivated. Do 97 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: you agree. I'm not going to say I agree or 98 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 1: disagree with that. I'll just say that he is the 99 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: first and is the only African American dean of a 100 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 1: Harvard House, and I know of no other incident of 101 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: a dean being driven out. And I will point out 102 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 1: that there seems to be something of a pattern so far. 103 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: Visibly a pattern of two is Professor Rowland Friar being 104 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 1: subjected to an ongoing investigation that at least there's one 105 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: long investigative reporters piece that indicates that Harvard's challenge to 106 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: an attack on Professor Rowland Fryar, a very distinguished economics professor, 107 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: is deeply unfair. Um, so we've got that, We've got 108 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: Ron Sullivan, and it's is problematic, if small, so far pattern. 109 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,359 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not a criminal defense attorney myself, and 110 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: I chose not to be one because honestly, I would 111 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: not represent anyone simply because they needed representation. Um, even 112 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: though I think everybody deserves some representation. But I'm big 113 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: on lawyers exercising their own sort of ethical standards in 114 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: deciding whom to represent. And obviously Harvey Weinstein could get 115 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: other representation. What I'm concerned with about Harvard is one 116 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: that on a complicated issue, it takes a totally simplistic, 117 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: one sided position. So the complicated issue is how do 118 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: we think about issues of sexual assault and sexual harassment? 119 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: And there are in these situations alleged victims and alleged perpetrators, 120 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: and it's complicated because victim claims aren't always true and 121 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: perpetrators aren't always guilty of everything that they're charged with. 122 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: And yet Harvard on this issue appears, at least in 123 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: recent many years now, only to take positions when they 124 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: can take positions on what looks to be the side 125 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: of alleged victims. And Harvard shows zero concern with the rights, 126 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: including rights to truth seeking process when they involved alleged perpetrators. 127 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: In this recent instance, Professor Sullivan is somebody who has 128 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: represented while he's been at Harvard and in the house 129 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: being position, he has represented a terrorist, he has represented 130 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: a murderer. He has also represented alleged victims of sexual harassment. 131 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: And the only problem Harvard has with him is when 132 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: he represents an alleged perpetrator of sexual assault. So you know, 133 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: there's it's one issue. It's decided to have to be 134 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: on the rightically correct side of all the time. That's 135 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: all it cares about. I'm wondering if it's because of 136 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: the Me too movement and the power of the Me 137 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:13,479 Speaker 1: too movement. It's affected all kinds of people in our society, 138 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: from movie stars to politicians to know law professors. Now, absolutely, 139 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: you're right, it's the Me too movement. It's the pressure 140 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: that students are applying to Harvard that is related to 141 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: the Me too movement. Now, there are other people out there, 142 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: There are women out there, there are women's rights activists 143 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: out there who also thinks true sexual assault, true sexual 144 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: harassment is a bad thing and should be addressed and 145 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: victims should be treated properly. But not everybody agrees that 146 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: any and everyone accused of sexual harassment, or who defends 147 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: somebody accused of sexual harassment, you know, is an evil 148 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: that should be removed and taken down and fired from 149 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: the job, etcetera. So some people think we should address 150 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: sexual reressment, but you know, take a more considered position 151 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: and consider the rights of those who are accused, because 152 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: there might be wrongful accusations. So Harvard is responding to 153 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: pressure here. It has pressure from one side, So there's 154 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: a me too movement. Yes, it is more sort of 155 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 1: vocal groups who are on the side of almost always 156 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,719 Speaker 1: assume the person accused is guilty and go after him 157 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: to the max. And that's the pressure they're responding to. 158 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: So the loudest students who are rounding the biggest protests 159 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: at Harvard's are anti Sullivan. They're not the only ones. 160 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: There are other people who have other views that include students. 161 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,319 Speaker 1: There were two students who wrote into the Crimson asking 162 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: for their letters to be published who were victims of 163 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: sexual harassment that Ron Sullivan had represented. The Crimson refused 164 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: to publish their letters, So there is pressure there. But 165 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: Harvard only wants to respond to the most loud mouthed 166 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: pressure and it is doing that, And yes, that relates 167 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: to me to movement. My feeling is that Harvard University 168 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: is in a position to stand on principle, not simply 169 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: to respond to pressure. And that's all they're doing. And 170 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,719 Speaker 1: I think that the student pressure, and yes it's a 171 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: sort of a larger pressure beyond the students, that this 172 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: fits in with the meetch movement pressure and we want 173 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: Harvard to look good and that means get rid of Sulivan. 174 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: Thanks for being on Bloomberg Law. That's Harvard Law Professor 175 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Bartha Lett. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Law podcast. 176 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: You can subscribe and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, 177 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. I'm June Brosso. 178 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:44,839 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg. Ya.