1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:02,600 Speaker 1: You were the first black woman to be Miss America 2 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty three. 3 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, was there a downside to being first? Of course? 4 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:09,799 Speaker 2: The downside is you get the brunt of all the anger. 5 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 3: Most people know Vanessa Williams the Grammy nominated singer or 6 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 3: Vanessa Williams the Emmy. 7 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 2: Antoni nominated actress. 8 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 3: But in September of nineteen eighty three, a twenty year 9 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 3: old Vanessa Williams became the first ever black woman to 10 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 3: be crowned Miss America. 11 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 2: And our new Miss America, here's Vanessa. Way out of question. 12 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 3: To see a black woman take that perch to represent, 13 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 3: as a song claimed, the beauty ideal, the dreams of 14 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 3: a million girls, a dream of for some, it felt 15 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 3: as big as when Jackie Robinson desegregated Major League Baseball. 16 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 3: But William's historic victory would be short lived. Before she 17 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 3: could complete her term, she was dethroned in a nude 18 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 3: photo scandal, and one that raised all sorts of questions 19 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 3: about race, jen and what it really means to make 20 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 3: progress in America. 21 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 2: I'm Jessica Bennett and I'm Cusievannaccarum. 22 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 3: This is in retrospect, where each week we revisit a 23 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 3: cultural moment from the past that shaped. 24 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 2: Us and that we just can't stop thinking about today. 25 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 3: We're talking about Vanessa Williams, who made history as the 26 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 3: first Black Miss America, but whose wind was overshadowed by 27 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 3: a scandal that stripped her of her crown. We're also 28 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 3: talking about Miss America, the beauty pageant that, for more 29 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 3: than a century sent a particular message about what womanhood 30 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 3: was supposed to look like, young, beIN, unmarried, and white. 31 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 4: So, Jess, I'm very excited to talk about Vanessa Williams 32 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 4: and Miss America today. I feel like I know a 33 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 4: little bit about both topics, but you're going to teach 34 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,919 Speaker 4: me so much. Why did you pick this topic? 35 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 3: I was a big Vanessa Williams fan in the I 36 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 3: guess early nineties, but it was only years later that 37 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 3: I learned she had actually been Miss America. And then 38 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 3: it was years after that I learned she was the 39 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 3: first black Miss America. And then it was only a 40 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 3: few years ago, as I was actually doing some research 41 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 3: around Miss America that I learned she'd in fact been 42 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 3: stripped of her crown. 43 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, I didn't actually know the Miss America thing either. 44 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 4: I obviously knew who Vanessa Williams was. She was a 45 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 4: singer and I liked her music, and then she was 46 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 4: on that show Ugly Betty. But I had no idea 47 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 4: that this was part of her history. Why was she dethroned? 48 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I guess dethrone may not be the 49 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 3: technical term for it. But she was given seventy two 50 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 3: hours to resign from Miss America, a handback her crown. 51 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,679 Speaker 3: And this came after a series of nude photos of 52 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 3: her that she had taken with another woman released. These 53 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 3: were modeling shots, she was super young. She never thought 54 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 3: they would see the light of day. She did not 55 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 3: consent to them being released, and they were sold to 56 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 3: Penthouse magazine had made public. 57 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 2: Oh wow. 58 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:55,799 Speaker 3: So there's many layers to this story, and we'll talk 59 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 3: about a lot of them. But it's also one of 60 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:02,079 Speaker 3: those cases where racism and sexism and homophobia all kind 61 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:06,119 Speaker 3: of coalesced around her story and created this perfect scandal. 62 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,399 Speaker 4: Okay, And why Miss America, Because you know, you don't 63 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 4: seem to me like someone who'd be super interested in beauty. 64 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 2: Pageants was like a Miss America than what? It is 65 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 2: not my natural inclination. 66 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, Actually, I'm trying to think. No, I did not 67 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 3: grow up watching Miss America. That was certainly not something 68 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 3: my parents would have condoned. As we I think I've 69 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 3: talked about at length. Seattle no cable television really not 70 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 3: into anything perpetuating that kind of thing. 71 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 2: Did you watch it? I did? 72 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I just assumed that every kid in America, 73 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 4: or every girl certainly at some point watched Miss America right. 74 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 2: Now, not in crunchy Seattle, not in grunty Seattle. 75 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 4: I mean we, I think, as I mentioned, also did 76 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 4: not have a TV for a couple of years, But 77 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 4: in the years that we did have TV, it turned 78 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 4: me into an absolute addict, like they had taken away 79 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 4: a drug and I was jonesing for more. And I 80 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 4: think also as an immigrant, Miss America feels very much 81 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 4: like a thing that helps you understand the culture you've entered, right. 82 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 2: You know, sort of like Baywatch ESK in that way. 83 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, Like it helped me understand the concept of what 84 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 4: it meant to be beautiful in America, for better or 85 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 4: for worse. 86 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 2: Right, we're gonna get into all of that. It's so disturbing. 87 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, But so I ended up when I was reporting 88 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 3: at the Times covering Miss America at length. And I'm 89 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 3: trying to think of why I got first interested in 90 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 3: I think it's because in nineteen sixty eight there was 91 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 3: this famous protest. 92 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 2: How much am I offered but number one please wime. 93 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 3: Amack a property where feminists went and they threw bras 94 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 3: and girdles and false eyelashes and anything else that represented 95 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 3: like unfair beauty standards into this trash can at the 96 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 3: Miss America patch. 97 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 5: America gotta be Miss America. 98 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 2: I mean that sounds amazing. Let's go to that protest now. 99 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,479 Speaker 2: It is amazing. It's a famous protest. And actually, have you. 100 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 3: Ever heard the term braw burning like it used to 101 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 3: refer to feminists? 102 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 4: Oh of course, yeah, I mean braw burning seems like 103 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 4: it was like what everyone defined as the seventies feminist right. 104 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 2: Personal bra burning is a myth. 105 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 3: No one ever burned bras, but it originated is actually 106 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 3: at this pageant in the late sixties when the women 107 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 3: they planned to burn their bras in this trash can 108 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 3: that they swear everything into, but they couldn't get the. 109 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 2: Right permits, Oh my god, and so they didn't. They 110 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 2: just threw them into the trash can. 111 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 3: And they called it a freedom trash can, and you know, 112 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 3: the press covered it, but one reporter was not able 113 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 3: to make it to see that they didn't really burn anything, 114 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 3: but like went with the braw burning headline, and thus 115 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:39,919 Speaker 3: bra burning was born. 116 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 4: Oh wow, I didn't realize that nobody burned bras? Did 117 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 4: they eventually burn bras because they thought it was a thing. 118 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 2: No nobody ever burned bronze, I don't think. I mean, 119 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 2: I don't know. 120 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 3: Maybe in life people have burned their bras, but no, 121 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 3: it's fully a myth that emerged out of this Miss 122 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 3: America protest. 123 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 2: Wow. 124 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 4: Okay, that is a cool piece of history. 125 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 3: And then in twenty eighteen, the height of the Me 126 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 3: Too movement, I learned and ended up reporting on that 127 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 3: Miss America was trying to, you know, kind of remodel 128 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:18,799 Speaker 3: itself to be woker and more inclusive and like less grossed. 129 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like that ship sailed a long time ago. Yeah. 130 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 3: So, so I ended up covering a lot of the 131 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 3: changes to the pageant. 132 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 4: I see, And so, if I remember correctly, one of 133 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 4: the changes was swimsuits, right, because I remember that they 134 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 4: used to have to do like a section that was swimsuits. 135 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's like what made Miss America miss America, right, 136 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 3: the swimsuit competition. 137 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 1: In the swim food category MATA. 138 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 2: And now they don't do that anymore. 139 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 3: So in twenty eighteen they had a new president takeover, 140 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 3: and yes, they got rid of the swimsuit competition. 141 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 4: And then there was always like the Q and A 142 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 4: section which I don't want to insult beauty pageant girl, 143 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 4: but you know, occasionally a clip would go viral where 144 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 4: it just didn't make any sense. 145 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 2: I believe that our education like such as a. 146 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 3: South Africa and a Dirac everywhere like such as and yes, 147 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 3: and actually this is maybe a good place to point 148 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 3: out that Miss America is different from the Miss USA 149 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 3: slash Universe pageant, Like that's the Donald Trump one, right, right, 150 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 3: But I think Miss America was and maybe is, I 151 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 3: don't know, considered the more sophisticated of the two. 152 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 4: Right, it's like the gold standard of pageants, Like it's 153 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 4: the classy one for lack of a better way of 154 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 4: distinguishing them. 155 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been around the longest. 156 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 3: You know. Miss Congeniality was not made about the Miss 157 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 3: USA pageant. It was made about Miss America. 158 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 2: Describe you're perfectly I'd have to say April twenty fifth, 159 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 2: because it's not too hot, not too cold. All you 160 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 2: need is to light jacket. I mean. 161 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 4: Truly a great film, by the way, so I mean 162 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 4: maybe film is pushing it. A very fun movie is 163 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 4: what I'll say about its reality. Okay, so before we 164 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 4: get into Vanessa Williams and her historic victory, is there 165 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 4: anything more we need to know about the history of 166 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 4: Miss America. 167 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's a few things. I mean, it 168 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 3: does have a really fascinating history. So it began in 169 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 3: nineteen twenty one in Atlantic City. That's always where it's 170 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 3: taken place, save for a few years when it moved 171 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 3: to Vegas, but that's really been its home. 172 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 2: So nineteen twenty. 173 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 3: One, this is a year after Women's suffrage passes, when 174 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 3: women were granted the right to vote, and it was 175 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 3: conceived of as a way to extend the summer tourist 176 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 3: season past Labor Day. 177 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,199 Speaker 2: Atlantic City is a tourist destination. 178 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: The beauty parade in the Paymous American Watering Place, Atlantic City. 179 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 2: Who shall hold the title Miss America? 180 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:44,719 Speaker 1: Each station in the Union has sent a representative to 181 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: compete for the crown of girlhood beauty. 182 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 3: But one of the really interesting things, and I actually 183 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 3: learned this in Rebecca Taster's book All the Single Ladies, 184 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 3: is that the sashes, the iconic sashes that the Miss 185 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 3: Americas where we can all picture them. 186 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I can picture it, were. 187 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 3: Actually based on or modeled on the votes for women 188 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 3: sashes that the suffragests wore. 189 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 2: Isn't that a piece of history? Yeah? That is actually shocking. 190 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 3: Another interesting thing is that at this time women were 191 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 3: barred from wearing revealing swimwear in public or beachware in public. 192 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 3: So the original Atlantic City event actually had to get 193 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 3: a temporary suspension of the span so that they could 194 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 3: do the simsuit competition. 195 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 4: Am I remembering correctly? That they weren't even allowed to 196 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 4: wear bikinis. 197 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 2: For the swimsuit competition, Like it had to be one 198 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 2: pieces because it had to be like dignified. 199 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 3: Right. 200 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 2: Oh, that's interesting. 201 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 3: I'm not sure when the pageant allowed it or not, 202 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 3: but they kind of weren't a thing back in the 203 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 3: nineteen twenties when it got started. So like the vintages 204 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,319 Speaker 3: make images are all these like very cute one pieces 205 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 3: with low cut legs. 206 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. 207 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 3: Another interesting thing is that you hear the origins of 208 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 3: Miss America, and you think, like, okay, so, like which 209 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 3: men decided to dream this thing up, like get the 210 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:53,719 Speaker 3: ladies on the. 211 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 2: Boardwalk, put them in some swimsuits, extend the tourist season. 212 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 2: And that was true in the beginning, but it was 213 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 2: act actually a. 214 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 3: Woman, Leonora Slaughter, who becomes pretty famous, who really makes 215 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 3: Miss America into what I think we remember it as. 216 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 3: Like she introduces the talent portion and runs it for 217 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 3: nearly three decades, starting in the nineteen thirties. 218 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 6: Again the great thing for all fifty two contesting residing 219 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 6: the pageants executive director Leonora Slaughter. 220 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 4: Interesting, this is kind of like the Barbie story, right. 221 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 4: People assume Barbie was a male invention, but it was 222 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:26,679 Speaker 4: a woman who invented it. 223 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, And so what happens is over the years, Miss 224 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 3: America becomes like this pretty major cultural event. At its 225 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 3: height in the nineteen sixties, three and four American households 226 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 3: watched it. In an article that I was doing a 227 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 3: few years ago, I actually interviewed a woman, an author, 228 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 3: alex Kate Schulmann. She's now in her eighties and she 229 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 3: was one of the organizers of that nineteen sixty eight 230 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 3: feminist protest, and she said to me, you know, everybody 231 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,359 Speaker 3: tuned into Miss America back then. It was like the Oscars, 232 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 3: and that was just so surprising to me as someone 233 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 3: who hadn't grown up in that era. 234 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 2: I mean, that's not surprising to me. 235 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 4: I obviously I didn't grow up in the nineteen sixties, 236 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 4: but even when I was growing up in the eighties 237 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 4: and nineties, I remember, you know, there just weren't that 238 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 4: many channels on television, so if there was like a 239 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 4: big event, everybody watched like that was kind of the vibe. 240 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 2: You know, right right, appointment viewing. 241 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,359 Speaker 3: The other thing is that there's long been this controversy 242 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 3: about what Miss America does with scholarship money and how 243 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 3: much of that money actually goes to contestants. But the 244 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 3: organization itself has long touted itself as more than a 245 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 3: beauty pageant, not just a pageant. You know, they're the 246 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:36,079 Speaker 3: largest provider, they say, of scholarship money to young women, 247 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 3: and the women take part in community service. They try 248 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,079 Speaker 3: to at least frame it as more than just a pageant. 249 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 5: Scholarships I received as Miss Minnesota of nineteen fifty six 250 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 5: helped to pay my college expenses. I'm glad I chose 251 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 5: a career that gives me the opportunity to help prepare 252 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 5: these wonderful children for life. 253 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 2: In the nineties, y. 254 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 3: You know, over the years, Miss America has been the 255 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 3: subject of mockery and school born. It's been opposed by 256 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,719 Speaker 3: religious groups and women's rights activists. Love when those two 257 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 3: groups come together. I love it when those two groups 258 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 3: can come together on something. And it's also, I think, 259 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 3: a reminder that we still live in a world today 260 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 3: where women are judged on their bodies. John Oliver actually 261 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 3: had a really funny segment on this a few years ago. 262 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 7: Last Sunday was they Miss America pageants And through it 263 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 7: all the swimsuits, the dance numbers, the inexplicable ventriloquism, it 264 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 7: was it was very difficult not to think, how the 265 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 7: is this still happening? 266 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 4: This is this kind of arcane thing. What are the 267 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 4: rules for Miss America? I remember that they're very strict. 268 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, so okay, how do you get to be in 269 00:12:57,920 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 2: Miss America? 270 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,359 Speaker 3: Well, there are a lot of rules, and even today 271 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 3: the rule of state that first you must be a 272 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 3: woman between seventeen and twenty five years of age. You 273 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 3: cannot be married, previously married or divorced. You must not 274 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 3: have any children. You can't have been previously pregnant. You 275 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 3: can't be the adoptive parent of any child. 276 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 2: Okay, wait, I have questions about this. 277 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 4: How can they verify that you've never been pregnant? 278 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 2: Like people have miscarriages and abortions. 279 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 4: They're not checking your health records, Like, that's a crazy rule. 280 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 2: Obviously you can't check. I guess they're relying on the 281 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 2: honor system. Yeah, I'm sure a lot of Miss Americas 282 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 2: have had that. Yeah. 283 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 3: You also can't compete if you've ever been convicted of 284 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 3: a criminal offense. 285 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 2: I feel like that's a little less shocking. 286 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,319 Speaker 3: But all of these things, to see them printed out 287 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,719 Speaker 3: on papers produced strange, I can imagine. 288 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 2: Are there any other crazy rules? Yeah? 289 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 3: So, Actually, the most infamous of these rules was known 290 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 3: as rule number seven. And this rule stated in the 291 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 3: early years, This was until about the nineteen forties that 292 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 3: contestants to Miss America had to be vote. 293 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 2: Of good health and of the white race. 294 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 4: I'm sorry, what like I just made like a comically 295 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 4: shocked face. 296 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it wasn't enough that they just declared they 297 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 3: were a quote of the white race. Contestants actually had 298 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 3: to provide a detailed accounting of their ancestry. 299 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 2: Oh wow, so not a great history. Also not a 300 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 2: great history. 301 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 3: And you know, the overt of the white race rule 302 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 3: was dropped in the nineteen forties, and interestingly, in the 303 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 3: nineteen sixties there was actually a separate Miss Black America 304 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 3: contest that was also held in Atlantic City in direct 305 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 3: protest of the pageant. 306 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 2: Oh wow. 307 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 3: Okay, but it would be another decade before a black 308 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 3: contestant would actually walk on the stage. 309 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: Until this year. 310 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 6: The Miss America pageant could have been called Miss White America. 311 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 3: But by nineteen eighty three, which is Vanessa's year, only 312 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 3: about a dozen black women had ever walked to the 313 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 3: Miss America stage. 314 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,119 Speaker 2: So history was really being made. 315 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 3: Not just in her, but in that there were four 316 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 3: After American contestants total, which was the most ever in 317 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 3: a single year. 318 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 4: Okay, so they're making some progress. Sets a scene for me, 319 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 4: it's nineteen eighty three. Is there a lot of big hair? 320 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 4: Are there shoulder pads? What's Vanessa Williams year like? 321 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of sequins, a lot of shoulder pads, 322 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 3: big hair, And actually we should probably note that while 323 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 3: Miss America had reached its peak in the sixties, this 324 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 3: is when three and four American households were watching. By 325 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 3: the eighties, when Vanessa is there, it's actually really struggling. 326 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 2: It's kind of fallen out of step with the culture. 327 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 3: I mean, you can imagine it's the eighties, like it's 328 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 3: crazy that this thing is still going on. 329 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 4: Oh, that's interesting because I sort of associated with the 330 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 4: eighties because that's when I watched it. But that's interesting 331 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 4: that it wasn't actually such a cultural juggernaut at that point. Yeah, 332 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 4: I know from pageant moms and toddlers and tiaras and 333 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 4: Honey Boobooh that many girl gets started at a very 334 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 4: young age. 335 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 2: Was Vanessa a pageant girl? Oh? 336 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 3: That's a good question, because you're right, so many of 337 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 3: these pageant peopleeople do this their whole lives. They get 338 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 3: started really young, the parents are really involved. They work 339 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 3: their way up from like locals to state to whatever. 340 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 3: And Vanessa was actually pretty unique in that she wasn't 341 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 3: that except for one thing that is hilarious and would 342 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 3: come up later after she won Her parents when she 343 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 3: was born had put on her birth announcement here she 344 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 3: is Miss America. 345 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's so cute. Isn't that funny? It's 346 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 2: pretty adorable, And I should. 347 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 3: At this point I should cite Margot Mifflin, the author 348 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 3: of a really amazing book on Miss America that has 349 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 3: so much of this great history. So we have read 350 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 3: through that and some of these references I am taking 351 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 3: from her. 352 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 4: Okay, so they put this on her birth announcement. But 353 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 4: she's not like a pageant girl. She doesn't compete in 354 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 4: pageants when she's a child. No. 355 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 3: From everything that I've read, including her memoir, she has 356 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 3: a pretty normal upbringing. She's born in nineteen sixty three 357 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 3: in a pretty small town called Millwood, New York. 358 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 2: It's a suburb of New York City. 359 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 3: Her parents were music teachers, which is pretty cool and 360 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 3: gives you a sense of, you know, how she became artistic. 361 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 2: She became a singer. 362 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 3: Ultimately she wanted to be an actress, and they were 363 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 3: really supportive of that. So she sang in her high 364 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 3: school choir and she played the French horn in her band, 365 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 3: which I love so cute, and then she went on 366 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 3: to be a musical theater major at Syracuse University. 367 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 2: She writes in her memoir, which. 368 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 3: Came out in twenty twelve, she actually co authored it 369 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 3: with her mom, that she, you know, she didn't have 370 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 3: any desire to be a be queen, let alone Miss America, 371 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 3: but she wanted a scholarship. She could use a little 372 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 3: money to help her fund her junior year semester abroad. 373 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 3: I mean, so that's kind of how this whole thing 374 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 3: it started. 375 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 4: I don't know how I know this, but I think 376 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,640 Speaker 4: she was scouted, right, she was actually approached to enter. 377 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 2: You know so many facts about things. Yes, you're right. 378 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 3: So she basically she gets discovered singing in her college. 379 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 2: She's in the. 380 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 3: Choir or someone sees her, and this person encourages her 381 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 3: to enter what was the Miss Greater Syracuse, which was 382 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 3: like a local competition that feeds into Miss New York, 383 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 3: which then feeds into Miss America. So she does, she 384 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 3: enters it, and she works her way up all in 385 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 3: a matter of a few months, and of course she 386 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 3: starts getting noticed in the press, who begin asking her questions. 387 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: Like, now, you're a young black woman, do you think 388 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: the country is ready for a black Miss America? Well, 389 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 1: I certainly would be a first, and I wouldn't mind 390 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,640 Speaker 1: that I wouldn't mind setting a trend setting making ways. 391 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 4: It's really a testament to her talent that it happens 392 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 4: so quickly, because there are girls who grow up trying 393 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 4: to do this their whole lives. Right, So she does 394 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 4: get to Miss America. What happens next? 395 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 3: Okay, so it's Miss America at nineteen eighty four, but 396 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 3: it actually happens in nineteen eighty three. 397 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 2: Why from convention Hall? 398 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 7: And it look like saidy love Miss America that journey. 399 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 3: And you know, she gets there and it's like she's 400 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 3: a national born star. Hear that she's kind of meant 401 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 3: to be. On stage, she wows the judges. She's gorgeous. 402 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,719 Speaker 3: She impresses them with how smart and confident she is. 403 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,640 Speaker 1: I think that it isn't important for education to be endowed. 404 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 2: With a good financial backing. 405 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 3: She competes in this beautiful but very eighties pale pink 406 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 3: sequin sparkly gown that has this like gauzy bulb that 407 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 3: sort of looks like a like a shower puff like 408 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 3: I don't know to. 409 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 2: This guy, like a. 410 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 3: Way to older lazy puff on her yes, like she 411 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,880 Speaker 3: could hardly see over anyway. And her hair is very 412 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 3: eighties tease bangs. She actually writes in her memoir that 413 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 3: she really only needed help from a coach for one 414 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 3: of the questions, and that was why the pageant contestants 415 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 3: had to compete in swimsuits, because you know, maybe she 416 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 3: is the answer. 417 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:50,199 Speaker 1: Now Miss America finalist in swimsuits, New York and Essa Williams. 418 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 3: She was told to say a fit body reflects a 419 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 3: FIP mind. Very very true, and so this all leads 420 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 3: to her victory. On September seventeenth, nineteen eighty three, she 421 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,360 Speaker 3: is crowned Miss America. 422 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 2: And our new Miss America, yes finas away. 423 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 3: Out of. 424 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 4: What's crazy is that I know it's ridiculous and it's 425 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 4: going to end badly for her, but I still feel 426 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 4: like a swell of pride for her when it makes 427 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 4: that announcement. 428 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 2: It's like Avlovian on my partner with my brain. 429 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 3: And that music is so evocative in a way, and 430 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 3: you know, watching the winning moment, she's clearly excited. She's beaming, 431 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 3: she does the walk down the stage doing like the 432 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 3: iconic wave. She's wearing her crown, she looks every bit 433 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 3: the part, and notably, she says this at the first 434 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 3: press conference after her win. 435 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: I hope to do the best time I can to 436 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: well be to get in America, to have to get 437 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 1: every person in America, no matter what race, the creed, or. 438 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 2: Color they are. So what happens next. 439 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 3: The coverage of the event is actually pretty interesting. You know, 440 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 3: for years, newspapers and magazines I think had sent multiple 441 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 3: reporters to cover the Miss America pageant, and especially during 442 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 3: like the sixties protest years when there was like big 443 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 3: feminist uprising career, everyone was covering it. There's tons of coverage. 444 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 3: But by this time, as we mentioned, it's kind of 445 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 3: fallen out of favor. 446 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 4: I wonder, is that because of the kind of women's 447 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 4: lib working girl vibe of the Times. 448 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 3: I mean maybe, I'm not sure the answer, But what 449 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 3: ends up happening is that a lot of outlets as 450 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 3: a result, are really caught off guard in terms of 451 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,199 Speaker 3: just how historic this thing is. Oh that's so, you know, 452 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 3: The Washington Post the year prior has decided that like, 453 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 3: nobody cares about Miss America anymore, and so they opted 454 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 3: not to send a recorder. The New York Times doesn't 455 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 3: have anyone there either, and they run a wire story 456 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 3: which oddly doesn't have a photo of Vanessa but only 457 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 3: pictures her runner up. 458 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 2: That was a weird detail that I didn't understand. It's 459 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 2: very weird. 460 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 3: And then there's other just funny details that give you 461 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 3: a sense of how people covered these events. There's like 462 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 3: this whole debate about whether or not she cried as 463 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 3: she went on her inaugural walk to get her and 464 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 3: the Chicago Tribune said she didn't cry. The New York 465 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 3: Times so she did cry, and anyway, I forbid, right, God, 466 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:08,479 Speaker 3: I love to police a woman's crying. 467 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 2: The point is. 468 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 3: It becomes clear pretty quickly that this is a big deal, 469 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 3: and so the media is playing ketchup. 470 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,239 Speaker 4: Okay, so we have this historic victory and reporters are 471 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 4: scrambling to catch up. What is the impact of this? 472 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 4: I imagine this becomes a huge news event. 473 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 2: Yeah it does. 474 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 3: I mean it really does go down as one of 475 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 3: the biggest news events over the year. 476 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 2: And a lot of that has to do with the 477 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:45,479 Speaker 2: fact that she is the first. 478 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 3: So some like in her when to Jackie Robinson actually 479 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 3: integrating baseball, Shirley Chisholm, the first black woman elected to Congress, 480 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 3: wais in She says of the victory at the time. 481 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 3: Thank God, I've lived long enough that this nation has 482 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 3: been able to select the beautiful young woman of color 483 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 3: to be Miss America. And Vanessa actually talks about this too. 484 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,120 Speaker 3: Here she is in a press junket post victory, being. 485 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: Able to say that you are the first and being 486 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 1: in history. It's been making so many people proud of 487 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: something that never happened. They never probably they never thought 488 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: they would see it in their lifetime, and having it happen. 489 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 1: I think it's a tremendous honor. 490 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, you can see why this would feel 491 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 4: really significant, right. I mean, if you're a young black 492 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 4: girl in America, you've never seen yourself represented in this 493 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 4: thing that's held up right as the epitome of what 494 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:32,360 Speaker 4: it means to be beautiful in America. 495 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 3: I think that's to what made it feel so important, 496 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 3: even though by that point, you know, a lot of 497 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 3: people sort of dismissed Miss America. 498 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 6: Right. 499 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 3: The other thing that was happening at the time is 500 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,919 Speaker 3: that this is occurring right around the same time that 501 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 3: there's this major backlash to affirmative action happening. So this 502 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 3: is when the Reagan administration was trying to roll back 503 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 3: workforce diversity measures, and like pundits were on the air 504 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 3: talking about her first discrimination. 505 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 6: We're all aware that recent opinion polls have indicated that 506 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 6: while a large majority of the American public support affirmative action, 507 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,640 Speaker 6: over eighty percent are also opposed to reverse discriminations. 508 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 4: I mean, that is wild, because it feels like we've 509 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 4: just come full circle and everyone's doing that same conversation 510 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 4: is happening again right now. 511 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 3: It's wild, I know, but so it is coming amid 512 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 3: this political moment too. And you can see this in 513 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 3: what happens in the press coverage after where she's doing 514 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 3: all these interviews and she keeps being asked things along 515 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 3: the lines of, so, are you a token? Was a 516 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 3: subpermative action? Don't you consider yourself too a de facto 517 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 3: spokesman for black America? 518 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: Now? I think so, But that's something that I knew 519 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 1: that was going to happen, and I was prepared for it. 520 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 3: Her responses are actually so moving and telling because she 521 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 3: really has to emphasize her qualifications. So at a certain 522 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 3: point she says, you know, I was chosen because I 523 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 3: was qualified for the position. Yeah, as if we're talking 524 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 3: about a job position, the fact that I was black 525 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 3: was not a factor. I've always had to try harder 526 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 3: in my life to achieve things, So this is regular. 527 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 3: At another point, she really emphasizes the importance of education 528 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 3: and her character and hard work. You know, she says, 529 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 3: quite bluntly, I'm ambitious, I have a lot of drive, 530 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 3: and I work hard to get somewhere. And the thing 531 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 3: that's nice before this all comes crashing down is that 532 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 3: the Miss America organization actually really backs her up. Like 533 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 3: this guy, Albert Marx, who is the chairman of the 534 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,919 Speaker 3: board back then, says repeatedly, I can assure you that this. 535 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 2: Young lady got here on her merits. 536 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 4: I mean I believe that because did Miss America even 537 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 4: care enough about inclusion for it to be from an inaction? 538 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 4: I mean, it doesn't seem like they were very worried about, 539 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 4: you know, being inclusive. I mean it's interesting because when 540 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 4: she says being black isn't a factor, it is a 541 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 4: factor she had to work harder, exactly. You know, it's 542 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 4: kind of an interesting dichotomy. So what's it actually like 543 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 4: for her to be Miss America? Being the first black 544 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 4: Miss America must have been a really interesting experience. 545 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think it's pretty crazy. 546 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 3: You know, Miss America's traditionally get to do things like 547 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 3: ride on floats at the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. 548 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to be singing New York, New York on 549 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: the big Apple float. 550 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 3: Then, like they meet important people and they sort of 551 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 3: act as ambassadors to their communities. 552 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 2: But hers was really on a different level. 553 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 3: She sits next to President Reagan at the White House 554 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 3: at this state dinner for West Germany. 555 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: I don't think it's a coincidence, for one thing, that 556 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: you had a call of congratulations from President Reagan. 557 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 2: He's never called a winning Miss America before that. 558 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,640 Speaker 3: I'm aware of that year, there's a Martin Luther King 559 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 3: Junior Birthday rally in Atlanta, and she stands there and 560 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:51,120 Speaker 3: attends alongside Coretta Scott King and the first black astronaut. 561 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 2: So you know, she's standing with heroic figures. 562 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 4: It's interesting because she's taken something that's, you know, genuinely 563 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 4: pretty silly and she's imbued it with a kind of significance, right, Yeah, 564 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 4: and it's serious to something interesting about that. Yeah, It's 565 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,959 Speaker 4: like this thing can be silly but also meaningful, And 566 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 4: she really proves. 567 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 3: That, yeah, and I think that aside from that, I mean, 568 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 3: she just had a huge number of fans. Like, at 569 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 3: one point in one of the articles about it, a 570 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 3: reporter notes that people approached her with a frenzy once 571 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 3: reserved for Mick Jagger and just departed with ecstatic smiles 572 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 3: associated with religious experience. 573 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,640 Speaker 2: So people really love her. 574 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,400 Speaker 4: I mean, that makes sense. She really was so stunning. 575 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 4: When you see the pictures and the videos of the time, 576 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 4: you can see why she has sort of this charisma 577 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:34,880 Speaker 4: that really draws people to her. 578 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 3: And yet at the same time, though it's not all celebration, like, 579 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 3: there are real racist undertones to a lot of what 580 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 3: happens in the aftermath. 581 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 2: What does that look like? Is the backlash immediate. 582 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 3: Some of it is more overt than other parts of it, 583 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 3: but it does begin pretty immediately. The very night that 584 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 3: she's crowned, one of the other attendees of the pageant, 585 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,399 Speaker 3: who is a former Miss America, makes some crack to 586 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 3: someone that she's with about how she must be quote 587 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 3: heading back to Harlem. Then later in the week, Johnny 588 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 3: Carson on his late night show makes this joke of 589 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 3: putting joke in quotations because it's not funny, but he says, 590 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,239 Speaker 3: did you hear we have a black Miss America? I 591 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 3: bet you didn't know that mister T was one of 592 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 3: the judges. I mean, that joke is just dumb, racist 593 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 3: and dumb. And it's interesting too because she says at 594 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 3: this time that she hadn't really experienced bald faced bigotry 595 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,159 Speaker 3: at this point, and so her parents say something to 596 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 3: the effect of like, look, you are a public figure 597 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 3: now and we can't shelter you anymore. 598 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 2: And it gets really nasty. 599 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 3: There are racist, threatening letters sent to her parents' house, 600 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 3: just awful, awful things written and said. She has to 601 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 3: have extra security wherever she goes. Armed guards are posted 602 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 3: outside her hotel room. She talks at one point about 603 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 3: how they were actual sharpshooters placed on the tops of 604 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 3: buildings when she had her first parade in the South. 605 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 3: Just wild, wild, like this is the eighties and there 606 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 3: are sharpshooters to protect this Miss Amarica. 607 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 2: I imagine there were so many death threats. 608 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 3: Really, I'm sure we don't even know the half of it, 609 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 3: but I think it was just awful. There's even another 610 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 3: detail that she said, where you know, usually when you 611 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 3: have Miss America going to some town or for a parade, 612 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 3: they ride in a convertible like that's a thing. But 613 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 3: she could not ride in a convertible because she was 614 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 3: too exposed. 615 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 4: God, that's really sad, Like it just really makes me 616 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 4: sad for her that she had to have all these 617 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 4: security measures that weren't required for other people. 618 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 2: Well, and her family too, you know. 619 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 3: So her mother, Helen Williams, co authored Vanessa's memoir with her, 620 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 3: and she writes in that book that we had no 621 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 3: idea that her Miss America rain would quickly become a 622 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 3: reign of. 623 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 2: Terror for us. That's how she describes it, a reign 624 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 2: of terror. 625 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 3: And it's interesting too because you know, at the time, 626 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 3: you're assuming that a lot of this is coming from 627 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 3: white folks, but she was also being criticized by black 628 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 3: people as well, who I think dismissed the notion that 629 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 3: her crowning was a racial breakthrough. You know, she was 630 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 3: pretty light skinned, she had these beautiful green eyes. It 631 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 3: was later revealed that her longtime boyfriend was white, and 632 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 3: so she received these really vicious letters that called her 633 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 3: a race trader as well. 634 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, because it's sort of this idea that you are 635 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 4: embraced by your community in one way, but also rejected 636 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 4: in another, like you exactly never quite good enough for 637 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 4: any of the people who feel invested in your win. 638 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, And Vanessa talked about this a bit in an 639 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 3: interview she did in nineteen ninety one. 640 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 2: I mean I had racial problems when I first won. 641 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 1: I got death threats from the Klan because I was black. 642 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 2: I got people from. 643 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean I had black people in America 644 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: said she doesn't look black enough. 645 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting. 646 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 4: It kind of reminds me of Robin Gibbons, right, who 647 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 4: is kind of not celebrated as being black enough. And 648 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 4: that must also be really complicated history for Vanessa to 649 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 4: have to navigate. 650 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 2: But this is happening over the course of the year, right. 651 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 4: She almost completes the full term as Miss America. 652 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 3: Yes, it's been many months now, and it's interesting to 653 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 3: hear her in later years talk about this time, because 654 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 3: you know, she sounds a bit torn, like on the 655 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 3: one hand, she's what twenty twenty one years old, She's 656 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 3: getting to travel the country, like, she's meeting all these 657 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 3: incredible people. It's an entree in a lot of ways 658 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 3: to what she really wants, which is to be in 659 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 3: the entertainment business. But at the same time there's this 660 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 3: racism and everywhere she goes people are asking her about 661 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 3: like the political issues or the racial politics of the day. 662 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 3: And actually, in fairness to her, at what point she 663 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 3: answers that question by saying, Hey, I'm only twenty years old, 664 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 3: Like what qualifies me to answer that? 665 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 2: Which fairly? That is, yeah, very fair? 666 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 4: Like why is she suddenly being thrust into this position 667 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 4: as like a leader on you know, racial politics. 668 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 2: That's really a strange position for her to have been 669 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 2: forced into. 670 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 3: And I think that's one of the things about being 671 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 3: a first of anything too. It's like you are expected 672 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 3: to answer for the whole group, and then if something 673 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 3: bad happens, you are again expected to answer for the 674 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 3: whole group. 675 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 4: Okay, so we do know that eventually something bad does 676 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 4: happen and she gets be thrown what happened? 677 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 3: So what happens is nine weeks from the end of 678 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 3: her rant, so she's really very close to this year 679 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 3: post being over. She learns that nude photos that she 680 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 3: had taken when she was nineteen years old were going 681 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 3: to appear in Penthouse and the Kicker, the nude photos 682 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 3: were with another. 683 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 2: Woman, and she hadn't consented to these photos being released 684 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 2: in any way. Right, No, the. 685 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 3: Photographer sold these images to the magazine without her permission 686 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 3: or her knowledge, and so the way she finds out 687 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 3: about them is actually during an interview with a reporter. 688 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 3: This is happening on the phone, and the reporter kind 689 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 3: of drops it in at the very end of the interview, 690 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,719 Speaker 3: essentially saying, you know, by the way, a source mentioned 691 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 3: that there would be these nude photos of you appearing 692 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 3: in penthouse, Like, can you confirm that this is true? 693 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 2: Oh my god. She must have been so blindsided. She 694 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 2: had no idea what was coming. 695 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 3: No no idea, and obviously she's extremely rattled when the 696 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 3: reporter asks for this, so she denies it and quickly 697 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 3: hangs up. But she also knows that these photos are 698 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 3: out there, and so before she can even figure out 699 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 3: what to do, Miss America gets wind of the photos, 700 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 3: They see them, and they give her a public ultimatum. 701 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 6: Miss America, Vanessa Williams took off her clothes and now 702 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 6: she's being asked to give up her crown within seventy 703 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 6: two hours. 704 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 4: That's Tom Broker, right, I would recognize his voice anywhere, 705 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 4: and he really delivers that line. So she's given seventy 706 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 4: two hours to decide what to do, yes. 707 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 3: And she spends that time hold up in her childhood home. 708 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 3: She's with her parents, she's told them. At this point, 709 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 3: her lawyer is there, her publicist is there, and they're 710 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 3: essentially debating what she should. 711 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 2: Do and what does she decide to do? 712 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 3: Well, Susie, I'm going to tell you all about that, 713 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 3: as well as Vanessa's remarkable comeback in part two. Before 714 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 3: we go, I wanted to give a quick shout out 715 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 3: to two authors whose books were instrumental. 716 00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 2: In our research of this episode. 717 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 3: The first is Margot Mifflin, whose book is Looking for 718 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 3: Miss America, a Pageant's one hundred year quest to define womanhood. 719 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 3: And the second is Amy Argittsinger, whose book is There 720 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 3: She Was, The Secret History of Miss America. They're both 721 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 3: fascinating reads and you can find links to them in 722 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:15,800 Speaker 3: our show notes. 723 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 2: This is in Retrospect. Thanks for listening. 724 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 4: Is there a pop culture moment you can't stop thinking 725 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,760 Speaker 4: about and want us to explore in a future episode. 726 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 4: Email us at inretropod at gmail dot com, or find 727 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 4: us on Instagram at in Retropod. 728 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 3: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us 729 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 3: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you 730 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,800 Speaker 3: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram, 731 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 3: which we may or may not delete. 732 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 4: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett 733 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 4: and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books 734 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 4: Feminist Fight Club and This Is eighteen. 735 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,720 Speaker 3: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and The Media. 736 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 3: Anson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our engineer 737 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,880 Speaker 3: and sound designer. Emily Meronoff is our producer. Sharon Atia 738 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 3: is our researcher and associate producer. 739 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,359 Speaker 4: Our executive producer from the Media is Cindy Levy. Our 740 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 4: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stem and Katrina Norbel. 741 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,280 Speaker 2: Our artwork is from Pentagram. Our mixing engineer is Amanda 742 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 2: Rose Smith. Additional editing help from Mary Do. 743 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 4: We are your hosts Susie Bannacarum and Jessica Bennett. 744 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 2: We are also executive producers. 745 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 3: For even more, check out in retropod dot com. 746 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 2: See you next week.