WEBVTT - S14, Ep8 | Climate Obstruction in the Global South 0:00:02.360 --> 0:00:05.920 Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Ami Westervelt. This season, 0:00:05.960 --> 0:00:10.200 we are making our way through the book Climate Obstruction, 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:14.000 a Global Survey. I'm getting ready to head to the 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:17.439 annual UN Climate Summit, the COP or Conference of the 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:22.120 Parties in November, and to prep for it, I am 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:26.200 reading up on all of the research so far about 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:29.600 climate obstruction and how it works around the world. In 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:33.840 today's episode, a really important topic, especially for this year's 0:00:33.920 --> 0:00:38.760 cop which is how climate obstruction works in the Global 0:00:38.880 --> 0:00:43.440 South and how some of these structures in place continue 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:47.360 to privilege global North countries over global South countries when 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:51.320 we're talking about climate negotiations, which then makes it that 0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:55.560 much harder to even talk about climate policy in the 0:00:55.600 --> 0:01:00.760 Global South without it seeming like something that is patent unfair. 0:01:01.560 --> 0:01:04.560 Joining me to talk about this today are two leading 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:08.120 experts on this question. They oversaw a chapter in this 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:10.399 book that pulls together all the research that we have 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:14.399 so far on it. Ruth McKee from de montfur University 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:19.759 and Omar Faruke at Queen's University in Canada. Our conversation 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:28.960 is coming up after this quick break. I'm going to 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:31.960 ask you a really, really dumb, basic question and that is, 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:36.319 please define global South for us. Let's set the context here. 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:45.560 That basic question is probably a very whole book. So 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:50.040 I think for setting it out into the context of 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:56.880 this chapter, we say the global South in its geopolitical sense, 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:03.520 So it's a group of trees that have a history 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:11.840 of colonialism, neo imperialism, and so that historical context of 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:19.160 non Western nations that now sit within a very different 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:25.679 economic and social structure to Western nations that really it's 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:33.400 driven by political and economic marginalization, which then in turn 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:37.480 has implications, at least for us in our case, how 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:42.639 it then stands with addressing climate the climate crisis. So 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:45.960 we can't say the global seuth and global self countries 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:52.200 as this one complete, same picture set of countries. Rather, 0:02:52.840 --> 0:03:00.400 it's a reflection of the geopolitical history in which we've 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:06.960 distinguished between western Global North countries and then non Western 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:09.920 countries in the Global South. So I think that's the 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:13.720 best way that we come to defying the global seuth 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:15.680 and how we deploy it in this chapter. 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:21.320 Okay, so you talk about these five major considerations when 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:24.680 we're looking at climate obstruction in the Global South, and 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:27.560 I want to talk about all five of them but 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:30.480 let's start with what you were just talking about, Ruth, 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:33.639 that like these You know, there's a lot of very 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:37.680 different countries in different regions of the world that are 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:40.880 in this category of Global South. So that means that 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:44.080 they have varying commitments, and there are varying commitments even 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:48.680 within the countries. Can you talk about those contrasts and 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:51.960 how they play out both within the countries and sort 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:54.080 of beyond them and between them. 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:57.560 Okay, so I'll pick this up. 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:03.680 So here we are referring to the variations in climate 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:09.440 commitments among countries in the Global South. And we see 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:12.880 that these countries, as mentioned, given the fact that we 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:16.520 are looking at these countries from the advantage point of 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:22.960 history of colonialism, new colonialism and imperialism and their positions 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:30.360 in global political economic order, we see this country's experience 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:38.080 shared experience in terms of disadvantages in terms of economic growth, development, prosperity, 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:41.320 and human development. So a common thing among all these 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:44.919 countries that they are in a disadvantageous situation in terms 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:52.080 of economic growth and development, and there shapes their commitment 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:57.080 to climate action, their commitment to fulfilling their pledge, their 0:04:57.120 --> 0:05:02.400 commitment to the parish accord. So such disadvantages we see 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:06.080 creating these variations in terms of commitment s. Take, for example, 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:11.479 African countries. We can consider all those countries together in 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:16.920 one category. For them, climate action is not a priority. 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:21.200 Decarbonizing the economy is not a priority for them. Is 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:28.359 energy poverty, Addressing energy poverty, reaching electricity to its population. 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:32.240 It's something that is their priority and certainly they will 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:36.599 consider any sort of options to fulfill that goal. So 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:41.400 when energy poverty as a result of their advantageous situation 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:45.359 in terms of economic growth, prosperity, and human development is 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:50.480 a major concern, then climate action or commitment to climate 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:54.800 pledge is something that takes a back seat. We can 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:58.320 also think about the case of India. India is a 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:03.840 giant economy in current times, but it is still considers 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:08.919 energy poverty human development associated with these as is primary 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:13.560 concerned because millions of people, hundreds of millions of people 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:16.839 in that country that do not have access to energy. 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:22.400 So energy poverty, energy security, and disadvantageous economic situation is 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:27.279 something that is causing varying commitments to climate actions in 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:28.840 many countries in the global South. 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:32.080 It's been interesting to see the big oil majors really 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:35.880 pick up on specifically energy poverty in Africa as like 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:38.960 there you would think that they're all just charities trying 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:42.279 to solve it. They talk about it all the time. 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:42.760 Yeah. 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:49.000 I'll just add one thing here. Carbon majors are expressing 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:52.760 interest in many African countries to explore and to love 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:58.200 their antebor resources by mentioning this issue of energy poverty 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:01.479 energy security. But there is also another layer of it, 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:04.760 and that is the interest of countries in the global North, 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:10.480 especially European countries, which are now facing an existential trip 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:14.840 coming from cutting off gas from Russia. So they have 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:19.000 to find out alternative sources and they have found with 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:22.480 their with the assistance of their carbon majors, some some 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:25.720 African countries as a source to fill that PoID. 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:27.160 Yeah. 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:27.720 Yeah. 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:32.520 I asked a fossil fuel executive recently if they were 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:37.600 planning to invest in grid infrastructure in Mozambique to as 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:40.160 part of their energy poverty plan, and they were like. 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:45.320 What because most of most of these are exported to 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:50.080 will be exported to Yes, so Ghana, for example, it 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:55.960 will export all major part of your newly developed fossil 0:07:56.080 --> 0:08:01.160 gas to Europe. So they are not in a position 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:04.720 like carbon maages are not in a position or not 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:07.720 to make any commitment to do anything locally. 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:11.240 So it is it's often said that, and obviously there's 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:13.360 a lot of evidence to this effect as well, that 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:16.760 you know, global salth countries contributed the least to climate change, 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:20.760 but will face the impacts first and worst. Can you 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:24.480 talk about how that plays into climate obstruction. 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:30.560 That's an interesting thing that we observed in our analysis 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:34.680 of climate actions and climate delay or obstructure in the 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:39.720 global South. But the issue of least responsibilities is something 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:45.600 that is used most often than not by politicians, politically leaves, 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:51.960 and even civil society groups environmentalists noted environmentalists to sort 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:57.480 of justify climate delay, if not climate overstruction. In this case, 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:02.360 we are very careful in choosing our work, and that 0:09:02.480 --> 0:09:06.120 is also connected to the notion of climate justice. So 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:10.640 it comes from that original nineteen ninety two un trible 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:16.240 FC Climate agreement where this notion of differentiated common but 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:22.320 differentiated responsibilities came in. So the global North, they contributed 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:27.920 overwhelmingly to historical carbon emissions, so they created this sort 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:31.640 of mess or climate crisis is now up on their 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:35.719 shoulder to take the major responsibility to clean it up, 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:42.320 and that is by reducing their emissions as well as 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:47.199 providing technical and financial support to Global South countries to 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:54.280 first adapt to climate crisis and then also contributing to 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:58.720 sort of mitigation transitioning to where green energy all sorts 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:04.120 of things. So the notion of least responsibility, historically, least 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:08.920 responsibility is something that we find as a kind of 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:16.280 justification for delaying climate actions or even undertaking board climate 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:21.640 actions in many countries in the Global South, many big countries. 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:26.640 India's name comes to our mind because India is in 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:29.680 recent years in global even climate meetings. 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:32.120 India is kind of playing. 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:35.120 The role of a leader of the Global South in 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:42.079 advocating for them using the framework of climate justice, climate fairness, 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:46.120 all sorts of things. So we find such emphasis on 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:53.280 least responsibility is a major factor contributing to sidelining climate 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:57.920 actions or delaying climate actions in many countries in the 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:02.359 Global South. And I will also add one particular point. 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:08.240 The notion of least responsibilities is not just that sideline 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:15.559 commitment towards renownse gas mitigation, reducing their emission. It directs 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:19.800 their attention to most of their time energy and attention 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:28.440 to building resilience and developing adaptation measures. So their focused 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:34.439 on least responsibility takes all energy and resources and attention 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:38.800 towards adaptation and resilience. And we also see how that 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:43.480 plays out during global climate negotiations. Global South countries call 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:51.760 for climate finance contribution equally for mitigation and adaptation and resilience. Currently, 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:58.800 globalnot countries are interested in investing in mitigation, not much 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:03.240 in terms of adaptation and resilience. So global health countries 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:08.439 involve these notion of climate justice least responsibilities to intervene 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:11.600 into that financial arrangements. 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:13.560 Equally divided between mitigation and adaptation. 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:19.439 And I think that goes to the problem that stands 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:25.160 in the idea of fair share and differentiated responsibility that 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:28.199 comes out under the Parish Agreement under Article for And 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:34.840 I think this idea of equity and ensuring justice, it 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:43.160 really feeds into the stalemate that then proceeds within conventions 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:47.319 u N SAC conventions almost given the example of sort 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:53.240 of the Indian negotiations, and it presents that another bigger 0:12:53.320 --> 0:13:00.920 question around well what do these global UNFCC convents do. 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:05.880 Are they there to push for strong climate action or 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:12.080 are they there to do this slowly or even muddy 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:15.120 the waters along this path, and it actually presents a 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:19.360 problem for the probably bold action that needs to get 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:24.360 taken to address the climate crisis. So I think this 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:29.360 idea of fairness, which established within within article for the 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:36.120 Parish agreements, fundamentally is saying, well, it's equity, it's striving 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:39.199 for equity, and so the door start from the place. 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:41.880 But I don't think equity really means and connects with 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:44.960 justice in and of itself, and I think that's something 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:51.160 that underlines what these large UNFCC conference conferences do stand 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:55.600 for with equity and increase in equity, but they can't 0:13:55.679 --> 0:14:01.000 necessarily represent justice and in this case climate justice, what 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:03.920 we would like to see in terms of climate justice. 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:06.120 So I think that might be one of the biggest 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:11.000 I guess institutional problems of the unof they see in 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:14.640 their role and how that plays out. Yeah. 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:18.720 Yeah. Relatedly, I want to have you define and talk 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:21.200 a little bit about loss and damage because I feel like, 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:25.440 you know, it's it gets talked about every unf Triple 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:28.360 C conference and everyone's like, yeah, we should do it, 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:29.840 and like we're going to do it, and then they 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:33.760 just don't do it. So yeah, I'm I'm curious what 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:38.840 you've found on that and how particularly the persistent failure 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:43.200 to actually come through on loss and damage promises has 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:46.080 made it easier for global self countries to kind of 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:47.880 be like, well, forget it, then we can't work on 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:49.840 this stuff if you guys aren't going to be serious 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:51.120 about helping to fund it. 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.280 I think again it goes to this stalemate and connects 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:57.560 with what we've talked about. So this idea of loss 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:00.160 and damage, so we mentioned this in the book, it's 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:04.200 abound the third pillar of global climate governance. So I 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:10.120 think it helps shift from the even the mitigating mitigation 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:15.680 adaptation to an actual, more formal financial role of providing 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:22.440 the finances to cover the harmful impacts, particularly in the 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:28.280 global South. And it's based on the the unavoidable reality 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:34.440 that climate change has and will impact on these countries 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:38.320 more so than other countries. And that goes back to 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:44.080 the history. Think back to those that geopolitical context and 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:50.600 the historic colonial history, the nerperial neo imperial history that 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:54.600 surrounds these current relations where loss and damage is there 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:59.120 to say, well, we are going to support you and 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:05.880 provide you resources to deal with these impacts. But fundamentally 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:11.240 that means that Global North countries are now under I 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:16.880 guess or seeking financial obligations. And when you've got that 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:21.960 financial those financial obligations to contribute to that loss and 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:29.520 damage pillar, it's giving the Again. It goes back to 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:36.000 that contentious to your political environment with political interest, financial interest, 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:41.800 economic stability. The conversations then go, well, how do we 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:44.920 how can we sort of give away so much of 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:47.640 this money to support loss and damage for the impacts 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:51.760 that we've The Global North taken responsibility for its actions, 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:58.320 to put plainly, but I guess that also comes and 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:01.680 this I don't necessarily think it comes across in the chapter, 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:06.520 but it's also reminds me of an acceptance of responsibility 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:10.680 that the Global North is failing to achieve. More so 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:15.159 than just not wanting to spend money, It then means 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:19.840 that there is that responsibility in that ownership that needs 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:24.679 to then be accepted. And I still think when it 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:31.240 comes to the Global Norse actions Western Europe, the US 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:38.679 keeping responsibility for that history, admitting that that's happened is 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:42.000 what then stalls the negotiations. So we talk about word 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:47.040 perfect policy, but an off the comment would be sort 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:51.480 of is that a confession? Do you admit guiltyre And 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:55.600 for me, that's the sense that that ongoing stalling, that 0:17:55.680 --> 0:18:01.160 word perfect policy idea is the attempt of cause and 0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:07.680 prevent responsibility then being ironed out into this financial support, 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:12.000 which then again creates that stillmate, well if they're not 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:13.719 going to do it, well we're not going to do it, 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:16.080 and the back and forth in the back and both 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:19.399 continues to happen. So I think loss and damage is 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:23.840 that necessary step that needs to be taken, that financial 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:30.200 support to deal with those consequences by the Global North. 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:35.159 But in reality that does mean accepting more responsibility, for 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:41.359 which many countries in the Global North, fundamentally in there 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:46.600 are not willing to do given the complex social, political, 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:50.440 and economic context that each country has in and of themselves. 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:54.520 So I think loss and damage is central is But 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:58.800 I think at the same time that's going that is 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:02.119 stalled because it takes too much to add responsibility and 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:05.960 thus the consequences that come with that. 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:11.720 Yeah, I'll just add one particular point here. Even though 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:15.560 the loss and damage, that third pillar which emerged in 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:21.240 recent years within the human cops system, the global not 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:25.040 country is powerful countries, particularly the European Union and the 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:28.800 United States. They made sure that there is no such 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:34.879 thing there within, within within decision making process as something 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:41.960 that will point towards their legally mandatory obligation or something. 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:49.040 So they then they make sure that such arrangements loss 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:53.240 and damage will not really bind them towards any sort 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:56.280 of legal obligations. 0:19:56.600 --> 0:19:57.920 So even though. 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:02.600 That that that was removed this processes in the past 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:09.720 several years, it is only about financial support. Is not 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:14.720 compensation or reparation those words and not. There is is 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:22.080 simply financial support for Global South countries, and we see 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:28.000 very little in terms of financial contribution to that fund 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:29.399 as of now. 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:30.600 Very little. 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:34.320 This has come up already a little bit the structural 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:38.680 issues in geopolitical shifts in climate politics, which are very 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:43.040 very complicated. So can I have you talk about the 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:46.879 traditional approach to development and especially you know, development and 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:50.040 growth and how that kind of often gets pitted against 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:50.800 climate action. 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:54.960 Yeah, so this is something that we discussed at length, 0:20:55.440 --> 0:20:59.919 not just in this chapter, but also while preparing APOL 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:06.200 brief and eventually this chapter. This traditional approach to development, 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:13.720 shaped by the ironclad belief in a new classical economic 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:23.480 system emphasizing growth, development, prosperity, improved human development through market 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:30.200 driven processes is something that is that has historically shaped 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:35.439 development approaches around the world, not just in the global South, 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:37.840 around the world, in global North as well. 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:41.560 The main focus is that, okay, if we focus. 0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:46.120 On economic growth, market driven economic growth, it will increase 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:52.800 not just economic share of these countries, but also increase competitiveness. 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:58.320 And in that process of achieving growth, prosperity and improved 0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:02.560 human development, suddenly greenhouse gas. 0:22:02.200 --> 0:22:04.680 Emission will will shoot up. 0:22:05.720 --> 0:22:10.679 And the logic is that countries will be able to 0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:16.040 address high greenhouse gas emissions at some point in their 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:22.840 development trajectory by using resources that they accumulated through this 0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:28.159 path of economic growth and prosperity through their actions in 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:29.440 this process. 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:32.760 So is the market driven approach. 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:37.959 We characterize it as traditional approach in the sense actually 0:22:37.960 --> 0:22:42.679 the appropriate word would be the mainstream, dominant approach to development, 0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:49.320 focusing on market driven mechanisms. We call it mainstream or 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:54.680 dominant because there are other approaches as well, focusing on sustainability, 0:22:55.040 --> 0:23:01.240 focusing on inclusion and other issues which involved include critique 0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:06.240 of these traditional approaches. So the idea is that I'm 0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:12.320 summarizing this complex phenomenon, the idea is relying on market 0:23:12.400 --> 0:23:17.840 driven processes to develop resources to address economic concerns. 0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:19.280 Along the way. 0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:22.960 We will contribute to greenhouse gas emations, but we will 0:23:23.000 --> 0:23:26.000 be able to deal with that at some point in 0:23:26.080 --> 0:23:32.160 that trajectory by relying on resources accumulated from this process. 0:23:34.280 --> 0:23:37.120 And I think it's important to add there as well, 0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:41.720 is that we think about marketing that market driven approach, 0:23:41.800 --> 0:23:45.800 that dominant approach. And we don't necessarily touch on this 0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:51.880 in the chapter, but there's a lot of literature as 0:23:51.960 --> 0:23:55.879 well as scientific evidence that attributes and we have to 0:23:55.920 --> 0:23:59.960 acknowledge the tribute between these market driven, dominant approach neoclass 0:24:00.640 --> 0:24:05.240 economics that have expanded across the world over the past 0:24:05.280 --> 0:24:09.200 one hundred years and have had such a negative impact 0:24:09.440 --> 0:24:13.080 on the environment with the rise in greenhouse gas emissions. 0:24:13.200 --> 0:24:16.240 So I think it's fair to say. I'm not going 0:24:16.280 --> 0:24:20.720 to say that capitalism is killing the climate. That's not 0:24:20.760 --> 0:24:23.840 what I'm saying. I'm saying that there's certainly a relationship 0:24:23.880 --> 0:24:28.000 between how the market is structured and how and the 0:24:28.080 --> 0:24:33.359 impact that it has had on greenhouse gas emissions. Thus, 0:24:33.440 --> 0:24:39.320 when you have that very much tunnel vision that dominates 0:24:40.280 --> 0:24:46.760 the economy as well as dominates the political environment. You 0:24:46.800 --> 0:24:51.760 will then constantly feed into a developmental model that will 0:24:51.880 --> 0:25:01.280 pit the environment against economic growth and prosperity. So until 0:25:01.320 --> 0:25:07.800 we you cannot divorce the two. So until you start 0:25:07.880 --> 0:25:15.160 to see an alternative to that development model, then trying 0:25:15.160 --> 0:25:22.840 to address this the climate crisis will, I guess, facilitate 0:25:23.560 --> 0:25:28.479 the opportunity for obstruction to happen. So we talk about 0:25:28.840 --> 0:25:34.199 in some of the outside literature, for instance, we create 0:25:35.119 --> 0:25:40.359 new environments for say, crime to take place. So we 0:25:40.480 --> 0:25:47.240 talk about how in the case of carbon credit systems, 0:25:47.960 --> 0:25:52.000 so we've talked about fraud within carbon credit credit systems, 0:25:52.520 --> 0:25:57.479 you've created for an environment for a crime to take place. 0:25:58.119 --> 0:26:04.600 But that new environment is also based on climate chip, 0:26:05.800 --> 0:26:10.240 this neo classical approach that will negatively impact the environment. 0:26:10.600 --> 0:26:15.040 So you're opening doors to try and address the climate crisis, 0:26:15.440 --> 0:26:19.879 but within an environment which is not going to do so. 0:26:21.400 --> 0:26:25.160 And I think that's an important point to show why 0:26:25.320 --> 0:26:31.560 actually approaches to development that dominate the that dominate society, 0:26:31.600 --> 0:26:38.480 that will dominate UNFCC negotiations, that dominate politics, will fundamentally 0:26:38.640 --> 0:26:44.920 store the progress required and become obstacles in and of themselves. 0:26:45.320 --> 0:26:49.480 Have a hard this phrase in Canada de carganized oil. 0:26:50.760 --> 0:26:53.960 Yes, we've heard it in the US too. Occidental Petroleum 0:26:54.359 --> 0:26:57.359 claims to have shipped the first barrel of net zero 0:26:57.520 --> 0:27:01.199 oil carbon negative oil. It's outrageous. 0:27:01.880 --> 0:27:07.680 Yeah, it's beyond comprehensional. Like the fraud and all sorts 0:27:07.680 --> 0:27:14.640 of things are now so deeply greened in thought processes 0:27:14.680 --> 0:27:18.800 of our policy makers that they can say something decarbonized 0:27:18.920 --> 0:27:23.320 oil and that's how you reach you near zero goal. 0:27:24.200 --> 0:27:26.040 It blows my mind that people are like, but it 0:27:26.080 --> 0:27:29.400 makes sense on the spreadsheet, though the atmosphere doesn't care 0:27:29.400 --> 0:27:33.720 about your spreadsheet. Actually, I want to ask you guys 0:27:33.760 --> 0:27:36.720 about how these two things that we've been talking about 0:27:36.880 --> 0:27:40.440 kind of come together. Because there's the really complex unf 0:27:40.640 --> 0:27:43.280 triple C stuff happening, and then there's all of the 0:27:43.680 --> 0:27:46.560 market forces stuff, and I feel like it is creating 0:27:46.600 --> 0:27:50.560 this situation where a lot of global salt countries are 0:27:50.600 --> 0:27:54.679 getting into the oil business now and they're talking about 0:27:54.800 --> 0:27:59.680 using that money to pay for climate adaptation because there's 0:27:59.720 --> 0:28:04.359 such a failure on international climate negotiations to get money 0:28:04.440 --> 0:28:07.080 to deal with this problem that they're now dependent on 0:28:08.160 --> 0:28:12.480 oil companies and the money from them to pay for it. 0:28:13.359 --> 0:28:16.080 You mentioned that in you Know Not to us, citing 0:28:16.119 --> 0:28:18.640 particularly the case of Guyana right. 0:28:19.280 --> 0:28:20.640 Yes, there. 0:28:20.760 --> 0:28:26.320 I have watched many speeches by Guyana's president. Yeah, talks 0:28:26.400 --> 0:28:30.560 very eloquently and captivate audience. 0:28:30.840 --> 0:28:33.520 They were a really early mover on carbon credits too, 0:28:33.560 --> 0:28:34.600 actually because. 0:28:34.440 --> 0:28:39.880 Because they have intact forests and very rich biodiverse forest 0:28:39.960 --> 0:28:43.320 areas so that they can use that. But in terms 0:28:43.320 --> 0:28:48.880 of the issue of extractive industry logics to address climate action, 0:28:49.440 --> 0:28:53.920 Guyana is is such a fascinating case to see how 0:28:54.080 --> 0:28:58.440 they present their case, and it shows, as you rightly 0:28:58.520 --> 0:29:02.520 pointed out, the the failure of you and trible C 0:29:02.800 --> 0:29:11.320 system to mobilize financial support for these countries Guyana. Most 0:29:12.000 --> 0:29:15.080 I guess vast area of that country is below the 0:29:15.080 --> 0:29:20.440 sea level and it will go underwater coming a few years, 0:29:21.160 --> 0:29:27.160 and it will require tones of resources and technical know 0:29:27.280 --> 0:29:29.560 how to address those concerns. 0:29:30.200 --> 0:29:31.280 So who will pay for that? 0:29:32.560 --> 0:29:36.720 They are like oil discovery is something that provided them 0:29:36.760 --> 0:29:41.440 with this opportunity. But I'm not quite sure whether I'm 0:29:41.520 --> 0:29:44.040 very pessimistic in this regard. I'm not quite sure whether 0:29:44.120 --> 0:29:48.920 even if you and trible FC system mobilizes trillions for 0:29:50.040 --> 0:29:57.240 Global South countries. It will persuade them to move away 0:29:57.360 --> 0:30:00.560 from extractive development pathway. 0:30:02.040 --> 0:30:03.680 Yeah, because I have. 0:30:03.760 --> 0:30:08.479 Seen from you reporting also about Guyana that there is 0:30:08.520 --> 0:30:15.680 a deep connections between carbon majors and politically leafs within Guyana. 0:30:16.520 --> 0:30:17.000 Yeah. 0:30:17.080 --> 0:30:22.000 So, and this president, the current president, he acknowledged several 0:30:22.080 --> 0:30:26.720 times the contract between Guyana and and and the oil 0:30:26.800 --> 0:30:33.760 company is one sided and his administration cannot really do 0:30:34.040 --> 0:30:39.440 much to address this disparity in the contract. Yeah, because 0:30:39.480 --> 0:30:42.640 they politically lease and carbon majors are on the same 0:30:42.720 --> 0:30:46.760 page in terms of exploiting resources as well as exploiting 0:30:46.760 --> 0:30:48.400 a poor country in the globalself. 0:30:49.200 --> 0:30:51.960 Okay, I want to talk about how these doew political 0:30:52.000 --> 0:30:56.080 things show up with respect to then not just the 0:30:56.120 --> 0:30:59.120 approach to development, but the actual investments in development from 0:30:59.120 --> 0:31:03.120 the development banks. So I'll give another example from Guyana. 0:31:03.240 --> 0:31:05.160 There was this really interesting thing that happened in the 0:31:05.160 --> 0:31:08.200