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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Ami Westervelt. This season,

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Speaker 1: we are making our way through the book Climate Obstruction,

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Speaker 1: a Global Survey. I'm getting ready to head to the

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Speaker 1: annual UN Climate Summit, the COP or Conference of the

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Speaker 1: Parties in November, and to prep for it, I am

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Speaker 1: reading up on all of the research so far about

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Speaker 1: climate obstruction and how it works around the world. In

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Speaker 1: today's episode, a really important topic, especially for this year's

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Speaker 1: cop which is how climate obstruction works in the Global

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Speaker 1: South and how some of these structures in place continue

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Speaker 1: to privilege global North countries over global South countries when

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Speaker 1: we're talking about climate negotiations, which then makes it that

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Speaker 1: much harder to even talk about climate policy in the

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Speaker 1: Global South without it seeming like something that is patent unfair.

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Speaker 1: Joining me to talk about this today are two leading

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Speaker 1: experts on this question. They oversaw a chapter in this

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Speaker 1: book that pulls together all the research that we have

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Speaker 1: so far on it. Ruth McKee from de montfur University

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Speaker 1: and Omar Faruke at Queen's University in Canada. Our conversation

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Speaker 1: is coming up after this quick break. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: ask you a really, really dumb, basic question and that is,

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Speaker 1: please define global South for us. Let's set the context here.

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Speaker 2: That basic question is probably a very whole book. So

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Speaker 2: I think for setting it out into the context of

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Speaker 2: this chapter, we say the global South in its geopolitical sense,

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Speaker 2: So it's a group of trees that have a history

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Speaker 2: of colonialism, neo imperialism, and so that historical context of

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Speaker 2: non Western nations that now sit within a very different

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Speaker 2: economic and social structure to Western nations that really it's

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Speaker 2: driven by political and economic marginalization, which then in turn

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Speaker 2: has implications, at least for us in our case, how

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Speaker 2: it then stands with addressing climate the climate crisis. So

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Speaker 2: we can't say the global seuth and global self countries

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Speaker 2: as this one complete, same picture set of countries. Rather,

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Speaker 2: it's a reflection of the geopolitical history in which we've

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Speaker 2: distinguished between western Global North countries and then non Western

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Speaker 2: countries in the Global South. So I think that's the

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Speaker 2: best way that we come to defying the global seuth

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Speaker 2: and how we deploy it in this chapter.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you talk about these five major considerations when

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Speaker 1: we're looking at climate obstruction in the Global South, and

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about all five of them but

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Speaker 1: let's start with what you were just talking about, Ruth,

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Speaker 1: that like these You know, there's a lot of very

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Speaker 1: different countries in different regions of the world that are

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Speaker 1: in this category of Global South. So that means that

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Speaker 1: they have varying commitments, and there are varying commitments even

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Speaker 1: within the countries. Can you talk about those contrasts and

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Speaker 1: how they play out both within the countries and sort

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Speaker 1: of beyond them and between them.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so I'll pick this up.

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Speaker 4: So here we are referring to the variations in climate

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Speaker 4: commitments among countries in the Global South. And we see

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Speaker 4: that these countries, as mentioned, given the fact that we

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Speaker 4: are looking at these countries from the advantage point of

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Speaker 4: history of colonialism, new colonialism and imperialism and their positions

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Speaker 4: in global political economic order, we see this country's experience

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Speaker 4: shared experience in terms of disadvantages in terms of economic growth, development, prosperity,

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Speaker 4: and human development. So a common thing among all these

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Speaker 4: countries that they are in a disadvantageous situation in terms

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Speaker 4: of economic growth and development, and there shapes their commitment

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Speaker 4: to climate action, their commitment to fulfilling their pledge, their

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Speaker 4: commitment to the parish accord. So such disadvantages we see

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Speaker 4: creating these variations in terms of commitment s. Take, for example,

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Speaker 4: African countries. We can consider all those countries together in

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Speaker 4: one category. For them, climate action is not a priority.

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Speaker 4: Decarbonizing the economy is not a priority for them. Is

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Speaker 4: energy poverty, Addressing energy poverty, reaching electricity to its population.

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Speaker 4: It's something that is their priority and certainly they will

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Speaker 4: consider any sort of options to fulfill that goal. So

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Speaker 4: when energy poverty as a result of their advantageous situation

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Speaker 4: in terms of economic growth, prosperity, and human development is

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Speaker 4: a major concern, then climate action or commitment to climate

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Speaker 4: pledge is something that takes a back seat. We can

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Speaker 4: also think about the case of India. India is a

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Speaker 4: giant economy in current times, but it is still considers

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Speaker 4: energy poverty human development associated with these as is primary

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Speaker 4: concerned because millions of people, hundreds of millions of people

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Speaker 4: in that country that do not have access to energy.

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Speaker 4: So energy poverty, energy security, and disadvantageous economic situation is

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Speaker 4: something that is causing varying commitments to climate actions in

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Speaker 4: many countries in the global South.

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Speaker 1: It's been interesting to see the big oil majors really

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Speaker 1: pick up on specifically energy poverty in Africa as like

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Speaker 1: there you would think that they're all just charities trying

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Speaker 1: to solve it. They talk about it all the time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I'll just add one thing here. Carbon majors are expressing

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Speaker 4: interest in many African countries to explore and to love

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Speaker 4: their antebor resources by mentioning this issue of energy poverty

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Speaker 4: energy security. But there is also another layer of it,

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Speaker 4: and that is the interest of countries in the global North,

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Speaker 4: especially European countries, which are now facing an existential trip

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Speaker 4: coming from cutting off gas from Russia. So they have

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Speaker 4: to find out alternative sources and they have found with

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Speaker 4: their with the assistance of their carbon majors, some some

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Speaker 4: African countries as a source to fill that PoID.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I asked a fossil fuel executive recently if they were

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Speaker 5: planning to invest in grid infrastructure in Mozambique to as

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Speaker 5: part of their energy poverty plan, and they were like.

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Speaker 4: What because most of most of these are exported to

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Speaker 4: will be exported to Yes, so Ghana, for example, it

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Speaker 4: will export all major part of your newly developed fossil

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Speaker 4: gas to Europe. So they are not in a position

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Speaker 4: like carbon maages are not in a position or not

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Speaker 4: to make any commitment to do anything locally.

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Speaker 1: So it is it's often said that, and obviously there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of evidence to this effect as well, that

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Speaker 1: you know, global salth countries contributed the least to climate change,

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Speaker 1: but will face the impacts first and worst. Can you

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Speaker 1: talk about how that plays into climate obstruction.

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Speaker 4: That's an interesting thing that we observed in our analysis

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Speaker 4: of climate actions and climate delay or obstructure in the

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Speaker 4: global South. But the issue of least responsibilities is something

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Speaker 4: that is used most often than not by politicians, politically leaves,

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Speaker 4: and even civil society groups environmentalists noted environmentalists to sort

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Speaker 4: of justify climate delay, if not climate overstruction. In this case,

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Speaker 4: we are very careful in choosing our work, and that

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Speaker 4: is also connected to the notion of climate justice. So

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Speaker 4: it comes from that original nineteen ninety two un trible

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Speaker 4: FC Climate agreement where this notion of differentiated common but

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Speaker 4: differentiated responsibilities came in. So the global North, they contributed

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Speaker 4: overwhelmingly to historical carbon emissions, so they created this sort

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Speaker 4: of mess or climate crisis is now up on their

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Speaker 4: shoulder to take the major responsibility to clean it up,

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Speaker 4: and that is by reducing their emissions as well as

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Speaker 4: providing technical and financial support to Global South countries to

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Speaker 4: first adapt to climate crisis and then also contributing to

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Speaker 4: sort of mitigation transitioning to where green energy all sorts

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Speaker 4: of things. So the notion of least responsibility, historically, least

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Speaker 4: responsibility is something that we find as a kind of

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Speaker 4: justification for delaying climate actions or even undertaking board climate

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Speaker 4: actions in many countries in the Global South, many big countries.

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Speaker 4: India's name comes to our mind because India is in

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Speaker 4: recent years in global even climate meetings.

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Speaker 3: India is kind of playing.

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Speaker 4: The role of a leader of the Global South in

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Speaker 4: advocating for them using the framework of climate justice, climate fairness,

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Speaker 4: all sorts of things. So we find such emphasis on

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Speaker 4: least responsibility is a major factor contributing to sidelining climate

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Speaker 4: actions or delaying climate actions in many countries in the

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Speaker 4: Global South. And I will also add one particular point.

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Speaker 4: The notion of least responsibilities is not just that sideline

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Speaker 4: commitment towards renownse gas mitigation, reducing their emission. It directs

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Speaker 4: their attention to most of their time energy and attention

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Speaker 4: to building resilience and developing adaptation measures. So their focused

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Speaker 4: on least responsibility takes all energy and resources and attention

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Speaker 4: towards adaptation and resilience. And we also see how that

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Speaker 4: plays out during global climate negotiations. Global South countries call

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Speaker 4: for climate finance contribution equally for mitigation and adaptation and resilience. Currently,

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Speaker 4: globalnot countries are interested in investing in mitigation, not much

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Speaker 4: in terms of adaptation and resilience. So global health countries

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Speaker 4: involve these notion of climate justice least responsibilities to intervene

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Speaker 4: into that financial arrangements.

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Speaker 3: Equally divided between mitigation and adaptation.

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Speaker 2: And I think that goes to the problem that stands

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Speaker 2: in the idea of fair share and differentiated responsibility that

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Speaker 2: comes out under the Parish Agreement under Article for And

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Speaker 2: I think this idea of equity and ensuring justice, it

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Speaker 2: really feeds into the stalemate that then proceeds within conventions

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Speaker 2: u N SAC conventions almost given the example of sort

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Speaker 2: of the Indian negotiations, and it presents that another bigger

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Speaker 2: question around well what do these global UNFCC convents do.

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Speaker 2: Are they there to push for strong climate action or

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Speaker 2: are they there to do this slowly or even muddy

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Speaker 2: the waters along this path, and it actually presents a

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Speaker 2: problem for the probably bold action that needs to get

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Speaker 2: taken to address the climate crisis. So I think this

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Speaker 2: idea of fairness, which established within within article for the

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Speaker 2: Parish agreements, fundamentally is saying, well, it's equity, it's striving

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Speaker 2: for equity, and so the door start from the place.

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Speaker 2: But I don't think equity really means and connects with

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Speaker 2: justice in and of itself, and I think that's something

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Speaker 2: that underlines what these large UNFCC conference conferences do stand

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Speaker 2: for with equity and increase in equity, but they can't

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Speaker 2: necessarily represent justice and in this case climate justice, what

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Speaker 2: we would like to see in terms of climate justice.

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Speaker 2: So I think that might be one of the biggest

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Speaker 2: I guess institutional problems of the unof they see in

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Speaker 2: their role and how that plays out. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Relatedly, I want to have you define and talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about loss and damage because I feel like,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's it gets talked about every unf Triple

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Speaker 1: C conference and everyone's like, yeah, we should do it,

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Speaker 1: and like we're going to do it, and then they

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Speaker 1: just don't do it. So yeah, I'm I'm curious what

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Speaker 1: you've found on that and how particularly the persistent failure

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Speaker 1: to actually come through on loss and damage promises has

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Speaker 1: made it easier for global self countries to kind of

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Speaker 1: be like, well, forget it, then we can't work on

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Speaker 1: this stuff if you guys aren't going to be serious

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Speaker 1: about helping to fund it.

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Speaker 2: I think again it goes to this stalemate and connects

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Speaker 2: with what we've talked about. So this idea of loss

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Speaker 2: and damage, so we mentioned this in the book, it's

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Speaker 2: abound the third pillar of global climate governance. So I

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Speaker 2: think it helps shift from the even the mitigating mitigation

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Speaker 2: adaptation to an actual, more formal financial role of providing

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Speaker 2: the finances to cover the harmful impacts, particularly in the

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Speaker 2: global South. And it's based on the the unavoidable reality

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Speaker 2: that climate change has and will impact on these countries

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Speaker 2: more so than other countries. And that goes back to

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Speaker 2: the history. Think back to those that geopolitical context and

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Speaker 2: the historic colonial history, the nerperial neo imperial history that

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Speaker 2: surrounds these current relations where loss and damage is there

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Speaker 2: to say, well, we are going to support you and

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Speaker 2: provide you resources to deal with these impacts. But fundamentally

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Speaker 2: that means that Global North countries are now under I

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Speaker 2: guess or seeking financial obligations. And when you've got that

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Speaker 2: financial those financial obligations to contribute to that loss and

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Speaker 2: damage pillar, it's giving the Again. It goes back to

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Speaker 2: that contentious to your political environment with political interest, financial interest,

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Speaker 2: economic stability. The conversations then go, well, how do we

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Speaker 2: how can we sort of give away so much of

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Speaker 2: this money to support loss and damage for the impacts

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Speaker 2: that we've The Global North taken responsibility for its actions,

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Speaker 2: to put plainly, but I guess that also comes and

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Speaker 2: this I don't necessarily think it comes across in the chapter,

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Speaker 2: but it's also reminds me of an acceptance of responsibility

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Speaker 2: that the Global North is failing to achieve. More so

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Speaker 2: than just not wanting to spend money, It then means

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Speaker 2: that there is that responsibility in that ownership that needs

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Speaker 2: to then be accepted. And I still think when it

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Speaker 2: comes to the Global Norse actions Western Europe, the US

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Speaker 2: keeping responsibility for that history, admitting that that's happened is

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Speaker 2: what then stalls the negotiations. So we talk about word

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Speaker 2: perfect policy, but an off the comment would be sort

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Speaker 2: of is that a confession? Do you admit guiltyre And

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Speaker 2: for me, that's the sense that that ongoing stalling, that

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Speaker 2: word perfect policy idea is the attempt of cause and

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Speaker 2: prevent responsibility then being ironed out into this financial support,

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Speaker 2: which then again creates that stillmate, well if they're not

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Speaker 2: going to do it, well we're not going to do it,

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Speaker 2: and the back and forth in the back and both

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Speaker 2: continues to happen. So I think loss and damage is

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Speaker 2: that necessary step that needs to be taken, that financial

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Speaker 2: support to deal with those consequences by the Global North.

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Speaker 2: But in reality that does mean accepting more responsibility, for

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Speaker 2: which many countries in the Global North, fundamentally in there

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Speaker 2: are not willing to do given the complex social, political,

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Speaker 2: and economic context that each country has in and of themselves.

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Speaker 2: So I think loss and damage is central is But

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Speaker 2: I think at the same time that's going that is

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Speaker 2: stalled because it takes too much to add responsibility and

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Speaker 2: thus the consequences that come with that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll just add one particular point here. Even though

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Speaker 4: the loss and damage, that third pillar which emerged in

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Speaker 4: recent years within the human cops system, the global not

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Speaker 4: country is powerful countries, particularly the European Union and the

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Speaker 4: United States. They made sure that there is no such

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Speaker 4: thing there within, within within decision making process as something

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Speaker 4: that will point towards their legally mandatory obligation or something.

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Speaker 4: So they then they make sure that such arrangements loss

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Speaker 4: and damage will not really bind them towards any sort

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Speaker 4: of legal obligations.

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Speaker 3: So even though.

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Speaker 4: That that that was removed this processes in the past

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Speaker 4: several years, it is only about financial support. Is not

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Speaker 4: compensation or reparation those words and not. There is is

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Speaker 4: simply financial support for Global South countries, and we see

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Speaker 4: very little in terms of financial contribution to that fund

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Speaker 4: as of now.

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Speaker 3: Very little.

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Speaker 1: This has come up already a little bit the structural

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Speaker 1: issues in geopolitical shifts in climate politics, which are very

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Speaker 1: very complicated. So can I have you talk about the

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Speaker 1: traditional approach to development and especially you know, development and

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Speaker 1: growth and how that kind of often gets pitted against

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Speaker 1: climate action.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so this is something that we discussed at length,

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Speaker 4: not just in this chapter, but also while preparing APOL

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Speaker 4: brief and eventually this chapter. This traditional approach to development,

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Speaker 4: shaped by the ironclad belief in a new classical economic

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Speaker 4: system emphasizing growth, development, prosperity, improved human development through market

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Speaker 4: driven processes is something that is that has historically shaped

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Speaker 4: development approaches around the world, not just in the global South,

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Speaker 4: around the world, in global North as well.

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Speaker 3: The main focus is that, okay, if we focus.

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Speaker 4: On economic growth, market driven economic growth, it will increase

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Speaker 4: not just economic share of these countries, but also increase competitiveness.

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Speaker 4: And in that process of achieving growth, prosperity and improved

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Speaker 4: human development, suddenly greenhouse gas.

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Speaker 3: Emission will will shoot up.

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Speaker 4: And the logic is that countries will be able to

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Speaker 4: address high greenhouse gas emissions at some point in their

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Speaker 4: development trajectory by using resources that they accumulated through this

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Speaker 4: path of economic growth and prosperity through their actions in

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Speaker 4: this process.

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Speaker 3: So is the market driven approach.

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Speaker 4: We characterize it as traditional approach in the sense actually

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Speaker 4: the appropriate word would be the mainstream, dominant approach to development,

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Speaker 4: focusing on market driven mechanisms. We call it mainstream or

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Speaker 4: dominant because there are other approaches as well, focusing on sustainability,

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Speaker 4: focusing on inclusion and other issues which involved include critique

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Speaker 4: of these traditional approaches. So the idea is that I'm

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Speaker 4: summarizing this complex phenomenon, the idea is relying on market

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Speaker 4: driven processes to develop resources to address economic concerns.

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Speaker 3: Along the way.

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Speaker 4: We will contribute to greenhouse gas emations, but we will

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Speaker 4: be able to deal with that at some point in

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Speaker 4: that trajectory by relying on resources accumulated from this process.

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Speaker 2: And I think it's important to add there as well,

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Speaker 2: is that we think about marketing that market driven approach,

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Speaker 2: that dominant approach. And we don't necessarily touch on this

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Speaker 2: in the chapter, but there's a lot of literature as

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Speaker 2: well as scientific evidence that attributes and we have to

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Speaker 2: acknowledge the tribute between these market driven, dominant approach neoclass

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Speaker 2: economics that have expanded across the world over the past

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Speaker 2: one hundred years and have had such a negative impact

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Speaker 2: on the environment with the rise in greenhouse gas emissions.

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Speaker 2: So I think it's fair to say. I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to say that capitalism is killing the climate. That's not

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Speaker 2: what I'm saying. I'm saying that there's certainly a relationship

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Speaker 2: between how the market is structured and how and the

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Speaker 2: impact that it has had on greenhouse gas emissions. Thus,

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Speaker 2: when you have that very much tunnel vision that dominates

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Speaker 2: the economy as well as dominates the political environment. You

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Speaker 2: will then constantly feed into a developmental model that will

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Speaker 2: pit the environment against economic growth and prosperity. So until

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Speaker 2: we you cannot divorce the two. So until you start

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Speaker 2: to see an alternative to that development model, then trying

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Speaker 2: to address this the climate crisis will, I guess, facilitate

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Speaker 2: the opportunity for obstruction to happen. So we talk about

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Speaker 2: in some of the outside literature, for instance, we create

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Speaker 2: new environments for say, crime to take place. So we

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Speaker 2: talk about how in the case of carbon credit systems,

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Speaker 2: so we've talked about fraud within carbon credit credit systems,

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Speaker 2: you've created for an environment for a crime to take place.

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Speaker 2: But that new environment is also based on climate chip,

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Speaker 2: this neo classical approach that will negatively impact the environment.

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Speaker 2: So you're opening doors to try and address the climate crisis,

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Speaker 2: but within an environment which is not going to do so.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's an important point to show why

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Speaker 2: actually approaches to development that dominate the that dominate society,

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Speaker 2: that will dominate UNFCC negotiations, that dominate politics, will fundamentally

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Speaker 2: store the progress required and become obstacles in and of themselves.

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Speaker 3: Have a hard this phrase in Canada de carganized oil.

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Speaker 1: Yes, we've heard it in the US too. Occidental Petroleum

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Speaker 1: claims to have shipped the first barrel of net zero

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Speaker 1: oil carbon negative oil. It's outrageous.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's beyond comprehensional. Like the fraud and all sorts

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Speaker 4: of things are now so deeply greened in thought processes

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Speaker 4: of our policy makers that they can say something decarbonized

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Speaker 4: oil and that's how you reach you near zero goal.

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Speaker 1: It blows my mind that people are like, but it

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Speaker 1: makes sense on the spreadsheet, though the atmosphere doesn't care

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Speaker 1: about your spreadsheet. Actually, I want to ask you guys

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Speaker 1: about how these two things that we've been talking about

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Speaker 1: kind of come together. Because there's the really complex unf

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Speaker 1: triple C stuff happening, and then there's all of the

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Speaker 1: market forces stuff, and I feel like it is creating

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Speaker 1: this situation where a lot of global salt countries are

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Speaker 1: getting into the oil business now and they're talking about

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Speaker 1: using that money to pay for climate adaptation because there's

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Speaker 1: such a failure on international climate negotiations to get money

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Speaker 1: to deal with this problem that they're now dependent on

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Speaker 1: oil companies and the money from them to pay for it.

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Speaker 4: You mentioned that in you Know Not to us, citing

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Speaker 4: particularly the case of Guyana right.

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Speaker 3: Yes, there.

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Speaker 4: I have watched many speeches by Guyana's president. Yeah, talks

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Speaker 4: very eloquently and captivate audience.

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Speaker 1: They were a really early mover on carbon credits too,

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Speaker 1: actually because.

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Speaker 4: Because they have intact forests and very rich biodiverse forest

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Speaker 4: areas so that they can use that. But in terms

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Speaker 4: of the issue of extractive industry logics to address climate action,

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Speaker 4: Guyana is is such a fascinating case to see how

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Speaker 4: they present their case, and it shows, as you rightly

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Speaker 4: pointed out, the the failure of you and trible C

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Speaker 4: system to mobilize financial support for these countries Guyana. Most

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Speaker 4: I guess vast area of that country is below the

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Speaker 4: sea level and it will go underwater coming a few years,

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Speaker 4: and it will require tones of resources and technical know

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Speaker 4: how to address those concerns.

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Speaker 3: So who will pay for that?

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Speaker 4: They are like oil discovery is something that provided them

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Speaker 4: with this opportunity. But I'm not quite sure whether I'm

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Speaker 4: very pessimistic in this regard. I'm not quite sure whether

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Speaker 4: even if you and trible FC system mobilizes trillions for

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Speaker 4: Global South countries. It will persuade them to move away

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Speaker 4: from extractive development pathway.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because I have.

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Speaker 4: Seen from you reporting also about Guyana that there is

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Speaker 4: a deep connections between carbon majors and politically leafs within Guyana.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So, and this president, the current president, he acknowledged several

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Speaker 4: times the contract between Guyana and and and the oil

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Speaker 4: company is one sided and his administration cannot really do

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Speaker 4: much to address this disparity in the contract. Yeah, because

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Speaker 4: they politically lease and carbon majors are on the same

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Speaker 4: page in terms of exploiting resources as well as exploiting

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Speaker 4: a poor country in the globalself.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I want to talk about how these doew political

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Speaker 1: things show up with respect to then not just the

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Speaker 1: approach to development, but the actual investments in development from

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Speaker 1: the development banks. So I'll give another example from Guyana.

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Speaker 1: There was this really interesting thing that happened in the

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Speaker 1: course of them kind of building out their oil industry

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Speaker 1: where at a certain point the Biden administration in the

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Speaker 1: US said, that's it, inter America is development big. We're

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Speaker 1: not going to fund fossil fuel infrastructure anymore. And so

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Speaker 1: the Vice president said, while then they should stop funding

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Speaker 1: fossil fuel infrastructure in their own country. It was like,

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Speaker 1: he's not wrong, he's got a point. But they just

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Speaker 1: kind of went, okay, fine and went and got the

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Speaker 1: money from China instead. So it's a good example of okay,

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Speaker 1: so it shifts, but then it just kind of comes

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Speaker 1: back around.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm saying in terms of geopolitics, we emphasize one

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Speaker 4: particular point, not just the role of New Development Bank

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Speaker 4: led by Briggs, Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa,

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Speaker 4: and recently they also added ten more countries.

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Speaker 3: So it breaks.

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Speaker 4: Plus will emphasize one particular, one peculiar thing in terms

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Speaker 4: of this geopolitical shift, and that is the rise of

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Speaker 4: a new development mechanism known as self cooperation. So, for example,

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Speaker 4: historically it is widely documented by scholars that global North countries,

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Speaker 4: especially the US and European powers, they used two major

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Speaker 4: international financial institutions, the War Bank and International Monetary Firm,

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Speaker 4: to actually control first implement their preferred development and economic

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Speaker 4: agendas in countries in the global South, as well as

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Speaker 4: as exerting control over over them. So with the rise

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Speaker 4: of bricks and the financial mechanism that they created with

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Speaker 4: the new banking systems like the New Development Bank Asian

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Speaker 4: Infrastructure Investment Bank. We see a new development mechanism is emerging.

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Speaker 4: So if Inter American Development Bank with as a result

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Speaker 4: of the influence of the US administration, decides not to

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Speaker 4: invest in in fossil fuel based development projects in Global South,

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Speaker 4: they now have option to approach another funding mechanism, and

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Speaker 4: that funding mechanism is quite different in terms of conditionally

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Speaker 4: it is attached to those development projects. So traditionally World

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Speaker 4: Bank and International Monetary Fund they attached many draconian conditions

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Speaker 4: to each and every of their loan agreements. And these

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Speaker 4: new arrangements that we see now emerging, they do not

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Speaker 4: approach development interventions in the same way attaching conditions predetermined

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Speaker 4: conditions to loan programs. Rather, they consider national needs, economic

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Speaker 4: needs of their member countries and how they characterize a

441
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 4: particular development projects and financial needs. And it is the

442
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 4: job of these new development mechanisms New Development Bank or

443
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:44,839
Speaker 4: Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank to finance those projects that will

444
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 4: lead to economic growth, prosperity, etc. And again here comes

445
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 4: the influence of these as Ruth mentioned earlier, these tunnel

446
00:34:55,120 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 4: vision of market driven development and climate action projects. So so

447
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 4: we see these these South South cooperation along with these

448
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 4: newly created development new new development banks are really shaping

449
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 4: the trajectory in in in the in the global South.

450
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 4: There are some critiques that it may lead to greenhouse

451
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 4: gas emissions, and we see from evidence although we cannot

452
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 4: quite clearly establish the correlation between the existence of the

453
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,240
Speaker 4: creation of these new development banks and the rising greenhouse

454
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 4: gas emissions in the global South countries. But suddenly there

455
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 4: there are forceful critique of these South South mechanisms that are.

456
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 3: That are sort of not paying serious.

457
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 4: Attention to climate climate concerns arising out of their their actions.

458
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 4: For example, I can I can take here one mentioned

459
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 4: here one example very briefly, Bangladesh in South Asia is

460
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:16,720
Speaker 4: now developing many several huge coal power plants. Historically, word

461
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 4: Bank and Asian Development Bank, these two financial institutions were

462
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 4: the major provider of financial support for major infrastructure development

463
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:33,800
Speaker 4: projects in Bangladesh and elsewhere. Since word Bank particularly decided

464
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,280
Speaker 4: some years ago not to finance in fossil ficial based

465
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 4: development projects, particularly in several countries Bangladesh is one of them,

466
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 4: then Bangladesh found another way to secure financial support, and

467
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 4: they leveraged South South cooperation.

468
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 3: Mechanism brought China India to.

469
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 4: Support their fossil will based infrastructure development projects. So even

470
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 4: though civil society groups environmentalists they vehemently opposed some of

471
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 4: those projects, particularly one which is located near a unisqu

472
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 4: heritage site, a fragile macro forest, they failed to persuade

473
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,720
Speaker 4: both Bangladeshi government as well as their southern partners China

474
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 4: India to relocate or even cancel the project. So South

475
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:41,720
Speaker 4: South mechanism, new development banks, new financing mechanisms is certainly

476
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:48,320
Speaker 4: shaking up the climate actions and policies in the Global South.

477
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about how multinational corporations fall into this.

478
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,439
Speaker 1: They're so helpful. How do they show up in this

479
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: complicated mix of thing. How we touched on this a

480
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,720
Speaker 1: little bit that they often have a relationship with political

481
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:09,240
Speaker 1: elites in Global South countries. But again with the caveat

482
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 1: that this term incorporates a whole lot of different countries.

483
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,760
Speaker 1: How are multi national corporations getting involved here?

484
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 2: It's another complex the story to tell, and it just

485
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 2: dives into some of the things that we've covered previously.

486
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 2: But I think a good way to do is illustrated.

487
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:33,760
Speaker 2: So when we discuss some of these this in the chapter,

488
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 2: we look at the Brazilian type of business sector context,

489
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:44,760
Speaker 2: and it's important to realize that it's not just island

490
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 2: gas corporations. I think fundamentally there's a different and what

491
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 2: we talked about, what we know already about climate obstruction previously,

492
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 2: and what we hear a lot about in the news

493
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 2: focus on island gas, sext On, Mobile, Wile Shell, all

494
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 2: of those island gas actors which have had a significant

495
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 2: impact on greenhouse gas emissions. But other sectors, like the

496
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 2: agribusiness sector are growing and increasingly high high pollutant industries.

497
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 2: It's just they'll be concentrated in different locations, and one

498
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 2: of those is basically in Brazil. The aga sector is

499
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 2: now one of the biggest I guess exports that come

500
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 2: within the that come from the country. And one of

501
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 2: the key things that we have to think about in

502
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 2: the context of Brazil is the deep interrelation between the

503
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 2: agribusiness sector and their influence on the political system and

504
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 2: particularly what we call the ruralistic caucus that has and

505
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 2: is able to exert a significant level of influence over

506
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 2: Brazilian politics, and when you had Bolsonaro in power, and

507
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 2: we could speak to Bolsonaro and his a certain alignment,

508
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 2: we say, the now president of the United States, but

509
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,399
Speaker 2: at the time alignment and that shift towards as far right,

510
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:28,239
Speaker 2: but beyond even Bolsceonaro's reign. In Brazil, the ruralistic caucus

511
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 2: has a significant and has always had a significant presence

512
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:38,280
Speaker 2: within the National Congress, and I think as a result,

513
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 2: those ties with corporate actors to the political system in

514
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 2: that country in particular, has allowed, I guess, a natural

515
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 2: alignment between the political priority that comes from generating and

516
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 2: expanding growth in Brazil. It's that national priority improves the

517
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 2: welfare of the population. All of that, even though we

518
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 2: know that that doesn't necessarily repeat and fall down and

519
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 2: trickle down into improving the lives of millions of people.

520
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 2: But nonetheless that those two priorities, the government priorities and

521
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 2: corporate priorities, fundamentally are aligned. And it is those multinational

522
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 2: corporations that are around different states that have power and

523
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 2: control within these different they've got the political alliances. I

524
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 2: guess that they're then able to shape national level agendas

525
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:50,839
Speaker 2: for economic growth, which often relates to these carbon intensive

526
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 2: industries and high profit making industries as well. And so

527
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 2: these multinational they have that lobby capacity I guess, to

528
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 2: really connect their ideas, their interests with political interests in

529
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:13,320
Speaker 2: thus what is seemingly the public interest. And it's important

530
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 2: to recognize that the public have their own opinions, can

531
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 2: have their own ideas around climate action, can resist it.

532
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 2: But the overarching impact is spoken through the media as well,

533
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 2: and it's the narratives, the constant narratives that you will see,

534
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 2: including those in right wing literature and Brazil, that feed

535
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 2: in and continue Let's grow the economy, let's push this sector.

536
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,879
Speaker 2: Let's not worry too much about climate change just yet,

537
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 2: because we need to. We need to improve the conditions

538
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 2: and lives of the public keep and there. So I

539
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 2: think it's that I guess, political power that they're able

540
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 2: to harness, but also their role in managing the media

541
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 2: as well. And we've seen that with the history of

542
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 2: exonomobile and the infiltration of stay. Oil and gas is

543
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 2: something natural to society, it's so normalized within but behind

544
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 2: naturalizing and normalizing oil and gas, it's normalizing the political economy,

545
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 2: continuing the neoclassical model of economics to continue that. And

546
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 2: so I think that's one big way in which multinationals

547
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 2: are able to capture state, but also how states can

548
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 2: align with multinational interests. So I think it's a two

549
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 2: it's a two waves, a very complex relationship that allows

550
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 2: these large sectors to continue do what they're doing without

551
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 2: the rape percussions afterwards. And it even plays out in

552
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 2: sort of legislation stay for instance and changing land uses.

553
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 2: For instance, between sort of nineteen nineteen twenty eighteen and Brazil,

554
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 2: there was this change in policy around land uses. So

555
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 2: it's AFO LU so it's the agricultural forestry and other

556
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 2: land uses. So that's how we refer to one way

557
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 2: in which emissions are and the way emissions are come

558
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:39,359
Speaker 2: from the agriculture folcy or the land uses industry. But

559
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:43,759
Speaker 2: that also ties with the land grabbing that would then

560
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 2: be exerted in terms of environmental protection. So essentially it's

561
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 2: actually during the bolscenario administration, environmental protection essentially decreased, so

562
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 2: legislation was cre and it was adjusted to boost, for instance,

563
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 2: agricultural production, so that in the agribusiness step there was

564
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 2: able to have an influence over those policies, so they're

565
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:18,800
Speaker 2: able to essentially target the political system and influence policy

566
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 2: development so that it becomes open to opportunities to continue

567
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 2: extracting resources, in this case making sure there's room for

568
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 2: agricultural development. But that impact on say, land use in

569
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 2: Brazil is the same type of impact on environmental protection

570
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:45,280
Speaker 2: policies that the fossil fuel industry is able to exert

571
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 2: stay in the US. So I think there's a similar

572
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,280
Speaker 2: picture that appears that we've seen in the global South,

573
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 2: that was seen in the global North, that then also

574
00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 2: appears in the global South that is facilitated by these

575
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 2: multinational corporations. So while there are distinctions to how multinational

576
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 2: corporations and states interacting the global South and it's impact

577
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:15,319
Speaker 2: in climate obstruction, there are some commonalities and I guess

578
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 2: common lawgus operendi that exist, and particularly around changing and

579
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 2: adapting policy for their interests. So there's evidence, I guess

580
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 2: that there's a consistent pattern of multinational corporations working with

581
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:39,720
Speaker 2: states invested interests to exploit under the guise I guess

582
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 2: of development, continuing this neo classic economic growth model and

583
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 2: of all the consequences of that that come from environmental destruction, marginalization,

584
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 2: moving people out of their communities, such as in the

585
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 2: case of the indigenous people in the Amazon rainforest. So

586
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 2: I think it's a common you'll see common examples from

587
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 2: multinational corporations and states in the Global South and how

588
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 2: they operate to obstruct climb and action that we've seen

589
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 2: in other in the Global North, like the US, although

590
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 2: it's not necessarily one, which is of what you might

591
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 2: be used to of open denial and just the purposeful

592
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 2: dismantling of environmental protections that are most ideological anti sie

593
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 2: in space that we've seen maybees in some of the

594
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 2: Global North countries. So the same partner emerges, is what

595
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 2: I'm trying to say.

596
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 3: I don't know.

597
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 1: I feel like every time I'm looking at this, I

598
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 1: just come to the conclusion that it's maybe slightly better

599
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: hidden in some Global North countries. And that's about it.

600
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 1: They've slapped a code of paint on it. But I

601
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 1: just want to ask you guys this last question, if

602
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 1: you have a minute about what can be done to

603
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 1: fight climate instruction in the Global South and what has

604
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 1: worked and what does that fight kind of look like.

605
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 2: I think maybe It's one of the things I want

606
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 2: to start off with is actually to begin with the

607
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 2: risks that people face. So I think it's fundamentally we

608
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 2: have to be aware that a fight can take place

609
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,760
Speaker 2: and we can push forward for change. But I think

610
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 2: actually navigating say if you're an academic or you're an

611
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 2: environmental group working on local level mobilization, that's one of

612
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,759
Speaker 2: the key ways in which groups have already started to

613
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 2: do this. But we have to think about the risks

614
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 2: that people are faced. So we've heard about things like

615
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:12,319
Speaker 2: environmental defenders and environmental defenders who have been targeted as

616
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 2: they try to challenge the deforestation across the ants on

617
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 2: and when you've got such a lock in between the

618
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 2: extractive industries, state interests, political interests, corporate interests, it presents

619
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 2: a risk that I think has to then be thought

620
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 2: very carefully in terms of what actions can be taken.

621
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 2: So we know that we've got engagement from NGOs within

622
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 2: UNFCC negotiations, but when you've got countries where NGOs are

623
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 2: going in so countries from the Global South with their

624
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 2: NGO representatives, there a fewer number who are able to

625
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 2: access those platforms to engage in the negotiations process, so

626
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 2: at a at an international level and capacity wise being

627
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 2: able to influence those higher level decisions becomes harder and

628
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 2: harder and harder. And I think that also speaks to

629
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 2: the problems of these big multi lateral agreements that don't

630
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 2: and are not really they are doing something, but still

631
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 2: don't seem to take the bold steps. And so I

632
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 2: think it's really important that we turn to local level

633
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 2: but also be vitally aware of the complexities of within countries,

634
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 2: what's going on, how political conditions are perceived, what you

635
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 2: can take for instance, even in the global West, the

636
00:50:56,600 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 2: global North, the approach to environmental protesters and terrorism child

637
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:08,240
Speaker 2: is stacked on to and I'm not so environmental groups,

638
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:12,759
Speaker 2: so that local level mobilization that has to come from

639
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,520
Speaker 2: the people. But it's also to be fundamentally aware that

640
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 2: this political and social context needs to be navigated very carefully,

641
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 2: as there is this particularly a global shift to the

642
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 2: political right as well, which we can see is being

643
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:33,799
Speaker 2: exerted across the world. So I wanted to get that

644
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 2: hard conversation out there.

645
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:40,839
Speaker 4: Oh, do you have anything, I'll just add one one

646
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:47,399
Speaker 4: particular issue to the local dimensions of environmental climate mobilization.

647
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 3: I'd also suggest that.

648
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:56,360
Speaker 4: Legal mechanisms, legal venues, legal fight is something.

649
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 1: ICG thing is interesting. I just haven't.

650
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's the new thing that happened, if just

651
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 4: two days ago. So the local court mobilization is something

652
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 4: that I see a fruitful way to really put pressure

653
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 4: on political elids. In our writing we mentioned in a

654
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 4: chapter we mentioned one case of Sri Lanka which in

655
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 4: both Sri Lanka and Bangladesh vibrant environmental mobilization contested fossil

656
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:35,960
Speaker 4: fuel energy infrastructure projects. Sri Lankan mobilization succeeded bangladesh Shi

657
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:42,839
Speaker 4: case failed because in the case of Sri Lanka environmental advocates,

658
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Speaker 4: they engage their core system and.

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00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 3: That actually persuaded forced the Sri.

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00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:57,720
Speaker 4: Lankan government to cancel the project and negotiate a renewable

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00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 4: energy projects with Indian, Indian and financiers. So local mobilization again,

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00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 4: I will emphasize one particular thing that is being aware

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00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:13,919
Speaker 4: of local political contexts, particularly with this growing trend of

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00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 4: criminalizing energy and climate politics in the home of liberal

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00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 4: democratic principles in the global not we are now seeing

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00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 4: activists are given jail sentences three four, five, six years

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00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:39,440
Speaker 4: for just protesting, participating in progress, So being aware of political, economic,

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00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 4: and legal context. But I'm pessimistic about transnational global thing.

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Speaker 4: I'm more interested in locally rooted activism.

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Speaker 3: But again being aware of political maneuvering that is happening

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00:53:57,400 --> 00:53:58,320
Speaker 3: within their context.

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Speaker 4: That is something that gives us hope at least from

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Speaker 4: different places around the world that you say