1 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: All right podcast it could happen here. It's a podcast 2 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,239 Speaker 1: about the terrible things that are happening all around the 3 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: world and the wonderful people who are trying to fix them. 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,639 Speaker 1: What it is today is a podcast with Trek Lubani 5 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: of Glia. And what really inspired me about the story 6 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: and maybe want to share it with you, is that 7 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: it came out of a really dark place. Terek was 8 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: on the ground in Gaza treating gunshot wound victims, and 9 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: a lot of gunshot wound victims, like I remember reading 10 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: his field testing of the device and just being appalled 11 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: by the number of people who have been shot, a 12 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: lots of them children, and some of the reporting he 13 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: was doing right like, oh, I had this this tornique 14 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,639 Speaker 1: and we were reusing them and they don't work very 15 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: well on the pediatric application because kids shouldn't be shot, right. 16 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: But instead of getting down, he was able to make 17 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: a solution. And I think that's really important, and I 18 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: really like that even through like this dark and terrible 19 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: stuff that we've all had to experience and he experienced 20 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 1: in Gaza, he was able to see a positive solution 21 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: away to look after people, to move forward in this case, 22 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: to prevent death and preserve life. And I think it's 23 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: easy to focus on the dark stuff. There's enough of 24 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: it happening, but I think it's important to focus on 25 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: the great people who are doing great things to protect 26 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: and care for other people as well. So that's a 27 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:34,119 Speaker 1: little bit of what we got today, and I hope 28 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: you enjoy it. So I'm here with Tarak Lubani. He's 29 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: from Glia. There, a company came across from I was 30 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: writing about three D printed tornic case. Would you like 31 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: to introduce yourself to us a little bit about Glear 32 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: and what you do there. Thank you so much for 33 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: having me. My name is terrickle Banny. As you had mentioned, 34 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: I'm an emergency physician. I work in Canada in a 35 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: city in Canada called London, and I also work in 36 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: the Gaza strip as an emergency physician as well. Glia 37 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: was really an answer to a problem, the problem being 38 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: that when I see patients in Gaza, they don't get 39 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: the same quality of service that I can give to 40 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: my nations. To that. Of course, that's multi factorial, but 41 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: a big part of that has to do with the 42 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: way in which we as uh that the medical profession 43 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: have medical devices that we don't release, that we don't 44 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 1: give access to other people to use. And so Glia's 45 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: purpose was to take the most medical devices that doctors 46 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: use and to make sure that they were accessible and 47 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: available to doctors all over the world. Okay, yeah, yeah, 48 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: that's that's very cool. And you make a number of devices, right, 49 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: Like I know that I first called to you about 50 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: the torn ca, but you make also a stethoscope, is 51 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: that right? The stethoscope is the calling card of medicine. 52 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: And so it was the first project that we started 53 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 1: working on to start the theory. I mean, we started 54 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: with the theory that hey, we can probably make a 55 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: device that's just as good as a three D device, 56 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: but the costs let's say three dollars or even thirty dollars, 57 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: And that was the stuff scope. We tested it, we 58 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: published the results, we proved it was as good as 59 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 1: the Gold standards, the Litman Cardiology three at the time, 60 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: and often using it both in our own practices also 61 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: making it available other people to make for theirs. Okay, yeah, 62 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: And so that's what's really interesting about your company as 63 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: opposed to other companies, right, you're not necessarily like manufacturing 64 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: and distributing. You are providing the designs that allow other 65 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: people to make them, right, and so can you talk 66 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 1: about some of their Like, uh, I know that you 67 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: use three D printing, and I want to talk about that. 68 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: But also like I remember seeing that the tubing and 69 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: the cessoscope comes from the a Coca Cola machine, right 70 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: for some of those considerations. Yeah, absolutely, the purposes to 71 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: make these device is available to other people for the 72 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: lowest cost possible, but also like actually be available. It's 73 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: no good if you can make it for twenty cents, 74 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: but the part that required are nowhere. So that's why 75 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 1: we went with a basket of items that are more 76 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,840 Speaker 1: or less earsily available and we made the stuffoscopes out 77 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 1: of that. For example, you can probably get the very 78 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: specific kind of earpieces that most stuffoscopes have, but they 79 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: are naturally going to be less available and less abundant 80 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: than if you were to use regular earbuds the contact phones. 81 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: There are way more headphones out there than there are stuffoscopes. Therefore, 82 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: those parts are more available, even if, of course there 83 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: they are less expensive. But even if they were slightly 84 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: more expensive, it would be worth it. What we really 85 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: take away is the monopoly and the profit motive, and 86 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: so by doing that, or rather, let's say the ex 87 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: orbitant profit that medical device companies are making, and by 88 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: doing that, we're really able to realize the promise of patents. 89 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: All of the devices that we make were patented at 90 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: one point. The promise of patents is that when the 91 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: patent is over, you'll get a cheap device, but that 92 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: promise is not realized. The stethoscope is a three hundred 93 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 1: year old device basically, and the fact that it is 94 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,840 Speaker 1: not available at the highest quality except for three kind 95 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 1: of nuts. So that's why we started there, and of 96 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: course moved on to more and more complicated devices, much 97 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: more complicated even than the tourniquet. By now, okay, yeah, 98 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: can you I remember reading because you have you you 99 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 1: kept a blog. I remember on like medium where you 100 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:47,679 Speaker 1: talked about testing the tourniquet when when you were in Gaza, 101 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: and it just a like, you know, if you read 102 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: medical literature then it did. This was just the shocking 103 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: I remember being absolutely shocked by the number of casualties 104 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: you ring unting encountering, and then also like you were saying, 105 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: like the the lack of available tools. So perhaps you 106 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 1: could explain like a little bit of what you saw 107 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 1: there and then how these tournicates have been able to 108 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: help you address that like massive disparity and access to care. 109 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: The turniket project really started in Gaza because we noticed 110 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: that after one of the wars, the war in two 111 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: thousand fourteen, that we had a particularly high casualty rate, 112 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: of course, but of that there were many deaths that 113 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 1: we would classify as preventable. That's where we felt that 114 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: had turnikets been available, those patients likely wouldn't have died. Um. 115 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 1: When we started working on it, of course, we knew 116 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: at some point there'd be another war. It is it 117 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: is very common in Gaza for there to be attacked 118 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,119 Speaker 1: by the Israelis. We didn't anticipate for it to happen 119 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: so fast and for it to happen in a way 120 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 1: where the turnicket was so necessary. That, of course, was 121 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: what what's called the Great March of Return, where Palestinians 122 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: protested on mass and one of the Israeli responses was 123 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: to shoot live fire at the protesters, often targeting About 124 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: eight percent of the hits were targeting the arms and 125 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: the likes, which is where turnickets are the most effective. 126 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: So the high number really is owing to the way 127 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: in which the Israeli has decided to deal with this 128 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: protests and the fact that it was a protest rather 129 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: than a specific war. And that meant also that we 130 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: could predict with the relative degree of accuracy where the 131 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: injuries would be, which meant that it was even more 132 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: important to have the right equipment of the right training. 133 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: It was part of an overall strategy. So of course 134 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: it's not like turnikets were the thing that saved lives. 135 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: Tourniquets were part of a campaign to train paramedics and 136 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: to train doctors and how to stop bleeding in these 137 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: kinds of injuries, and they were one of the most 138 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:01,559 Speaker 1: important tools in that campaign, but only part that campaign. Yeah, 139 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: of course, of course you need other tools and obviously 140 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: their education and you can't just slap it on and 141 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: then the person's fine, right, Obviously there's a lot of 142 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: care afterwards which is important to And can you maybe 143 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: talk us through You talked about like the promise of patents, right, 144 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: and I think this is important in exactly what we're 145 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: talking about in tornic its because it's a little different 146 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: to like medic medicines, right, it's a little different with 147 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: medical devices. So there are existing torn kits on the 148 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: market right and I think the sort of market leading 149 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: one is the CAT. Can you explain, like why at 150 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: those not getting to people who need them desperately in 151 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: these areas The problem with the turnickets that are available 152 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,599 Speaker 1: right now, it kind of falls into a few different categories. 153 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: North American Rescue the makers of CAT have two key 154 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: patents on the Cat, and as far as we can tell, 155 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: just based on the posture of the company, if anybody 156 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 1: else were to make exact Cat replicas, they will be suited. 157 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: The people who are willing to then make exact Cat 158 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: replicas tend to be people who are unaccountable and largely 159 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: have not much to lose, and so that's why we 160 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: saw a glut initially, for example, with the Ukraine campaign 161 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:27,079 Speaker 1: of tourniquets that that were relatively low quality. And so 162 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 1: you can't just make the device. You also have to 163 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: know that the device will work, because you don't want 164 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: to discover that when you put it on armor alike 165 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: and then it fails. Gaza is an acid test of 166 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: all of these things, because not only our devices generally 167 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: not available or expensive, it's kind of at the bottom 168 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: of any purchase list, for example, but also in Gaza, 169 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: there's a complete international blockade Israeli led, of course, but 170 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 1: there are other countries that are that are contributory, and 171 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: that blockade means that equipment can't get in so long 172 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: as the Israelis deem it to be of military value. Um. 173 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 1: This is where things like dual use devices and so 174 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: on come into play. The tourniquet is a medical device. 175 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: It is it can only be a medical device. There 176 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: is no second use, and so it should be exempt. However, 177 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,559 Speaker 1: even if the Palestinians could afford fifty U S dollars 178 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: per units, which should be the cost to get one in, 179 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: the Israelis won't let them in. So de facto, even 180 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: though they shouldn't be banned, they are de facto banned, 181 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: and that means that not only can we depend on 182 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:44,559 Speaker 1: cheap Chinese retailers. Let's say to give us replica turniquets, 183 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: we actually have to manufacture them ourselves. When we open 184 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 1: sourced our designs, it was with an eye to two things. 185 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: One making it available so that the replica makers can 186 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: make higher quality replicas. They're already making replicas, we may 187 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: as well give them a legal replica rather than a 188 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: patent break busting replica. Not that I think there's anything 189 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: wrong with that in these cases where there's emergencies, but 190 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: just the same Glia's tourniquet doesn't break any patents. And 191 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: at the same time, in addition to giving them the 192 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: ability to make high quality turnikets, we can also make 193 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: high quality turnikets locally and domestically. Because of course, national liberation, 194 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: as it were in the medical device space can't come 195 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: if you can't make your own devices. We discovered that 196 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: during COVID. The Palestines have known that for decades now, 197 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: and we're kind of rediscovering it in Ukraine where there 198 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: just aren't enough turnickts and so they are forced to 199 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: improvise or except tourniquets that they don't want to accept, 200 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: right Yeah, Like I think I think COVID was this 201 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: great example that we can't continue to rely on the 202 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 1: sort of winds of global capital to provide things that 203 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: we need to survive. I think you're manufacturing is fascinating 204 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: because you're using essentially commonly available materials in the three 205 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: D printeries that right, Yeah, that's correct. I mean we're 206 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: not against using other things they just have to be 207 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: very simple. For example, are electronics use PCBs. You can't 208 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 1: three D print electronic circuits just yet, so we use PCBs. 209 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: But when we design our PCBs, there are a couple 210 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 1: of ways to design it. You can design an eight 211 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 1: layer board that can only be manufactured in one or 212 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: two places in the world, or you can design a 213 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: board that's three times the size but can be manufactured 214 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: anywhere in the world. And when you're talking about credit 215 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,199 Speaker 1: card sized devices, if it's notebook size instead of credit 216 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: card size, it doesn't really matter that much. For example, 217 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: the example i'm thinking of here as an electric cardiogram, 218 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: where we took a device that had failed um in 219 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: the sort of market that they the maker's open source 220 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: and they had intended it to be a fitness device, 221 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: and then it didn't work. A company went bankrupt, and 222 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: so they open sourced it. So we looked at their 223 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,679 Speaker 1: schematics all of the problems that they had already solved. 224 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: We said, okay, the problem we're going to solve is 225 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: to make it so that this can be manufactured in 226 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: a high school electronics lab. And we were able to 227 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: achieve that it was bigger, it was twice as big, 228 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: But who cares? The old one was half the size 229 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: of a credit card? You know who cares? You make 230 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: it a little bit bigger. But at the same time, um, 231 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: you make it much more accessible, twice as big, twenty 232 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: times more accessible. I know some of your staff like 233 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 1: your tony cats. It's really um. There's not much or 234 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: any really of a performance trade off from what you've seen, right. Indeed, 235 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,839 Speaker 1: they might be better for some pediatric applications if I 236 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: remember correctly that that's right. So when you think of 237 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,439 Speaker 1: the way in which corporate devices are made, they are 238 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: made to the specifications of particular buyers. And the buyers 239 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: are the people who have the money. Who's the buyer 240 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: for tourniquets? When you think about who needs tourniquets consistently, 241 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: who do you who has money to give you turnickets? 242 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: Who should you market too? There's only one sane answer, 243 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 1: and that is First world militaries, especially occupation militaries or 244 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: militaries that are engaged in UH ground level warfare, who 245 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: are expected to take small arms or i e. D s. 246 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: And so there are not many children who you have 247 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: to sell to in that particular market. There aren't many 248 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: small women or even women at all they have to 249 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: sell to in that market. So I don't think that 250 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: North American rescues engineers would have any trouble making sure 251 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: that their turnickets worked amazingly well for children. But why 252 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: why would they spend one to million dollars doing that 253 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: work and research when that's not their audience and that's 254 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: not their buyer. For us, the normal person, the civilian 255 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: is uh in quotation marks bire. They're not the ones buying, 256 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: but they're the ones who are the main consumer, and 257 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: so they're the ones who we target. In Gaza specifically 258 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: of the population is under the age of fourteen. You'd 259 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: have to be crazy to go out there and put 260 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: a tourniquet out that only works on big, burly men. 261 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: So that's that's why we were we were driven to 262 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: do that. And as for the performance traight offs, yeah, 263 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: you're right. The the what we learned about spec sheets 264 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: on lots of these devices is that they're made up. 265 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: There isn't really a great way to know how well 266 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: elterni it works. Unfortunately, there isn't a really great way 267 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: to know how well stuffoscope works. And so some of 268 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: the first work we did was actually designing some tests 269 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: so that we can say, okay, well here's how you 270 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: prove that the stuffoscope works as well as that stuffoscope, 271 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: or here's how you prove that you know this works 272 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: as well as that. And those testing protocols we made 273 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: them open source and easily available too. For example, if 274 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: you want to test the stethoscope, you can do that 275 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: with a pair of headphones, a microphone, and the Hello 276 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: Kitty balloon. That's how we did it originally. Could we 277 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: have spent ten dollars making that test right, Yeah, we 278 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: could have, but that wouldn't have helped us in terms 279 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: of helping other people make stutoscopes wherever they are. Yeah, 280 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: that's very cool. And then by open sourcing that test, 281 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: you allow for other people who have ideas or sort 282 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: of models for their own improvements or different designs, that 283 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: they can then use that test right and continue to 284 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: improve and share their improvements with others. I do not 285 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: want to work on stethoscopes anymore. I want to people 286 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: to take it up. And it doesn't mean that I won't, 287 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: of course I will. But my favorite thing is when 288 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: somebody sends a message and says, hey, I like what 289 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: you've done. Here's how I think it could be better. 290 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: I love those messages. I love them. And you know what, 291 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: nine out of ton of those ideas don't work out. 292 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: They don't pan out. But like our stethoscope, since two 293 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: thousands seventeen, all of the improvements have been from other 294 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: people because we haven't had the time and money to 295 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: work on it. But we have been open minded, have 296 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: incorporated lots of design changes that other people in the 297 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 1: community have suggested. That's a good thing. It's good for everybody. Yeah, 298 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 1: I think it does an excellent job at getting it. 299 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: They like their fundamental conceit of our Dragon device development model, right, 300 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 1: which is that which isn't true actually that there's massive 301 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 1: R and D costs and those R and D costs 302 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: have to be recouped by charging a massive amount for 303 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 1: a period of time and making access to that medicinal 304 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 1: device a privilege, not right, and then eventually the costs 305 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: will come down they often don't, and then everyone will 306 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 1: have active to this thing. And it's like, it's been 307 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: my experience that it doesn't work that way. But what 308 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: you've shown is an alternative right that people want to 309 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: help and that that they don't that there's not a 310 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: need for this like price gouging to facilitate the improvement 311 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: in this technology. Is that fair? We're not taking a 312 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: really altruistic model here. People are generally improving the stethoscope 313 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 1: for their own uses, so there is a self interested 314 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 1: aspect if you want to present it that way. What 315 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: we realized is that actually the most useful way to 316 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: develop a device is to make it as good as 317 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: possible and release it and then have other people who 318 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: want to improve it have a capacity to share back 319 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 1: to you. So as much as I I believe in 320 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: altruism and I do think every time that I've seen 321 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: people collaborate, I've seen a tremendous amount of it, this 322 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: more resembles the open source software model, where which is 323 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: actually the world I came from. I came from the 324 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: free software model, where yes, you do things just for 325 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: the fun of it, but also very large corporations are involved. 326 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: For example, some of the stuffoscope's improvements happened because the 327 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: lab needed to use it for some experiments on animals, 328 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,160 Speaker 1: and so they made modifications and they fed them back amazing, 329 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 1: that's fantastic, And but that that was totally self interested, 330 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: that they knew that it would cost them significantly less 331 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:10,399 Speaker 1: to build on our work, and it would cost them 332 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:16,439 Speaker 1: nothing to share back their their contributions. So it's you know, 333 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 1: we're not going out there trying to to prove that 334 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,160 Speaker 1: everybody is good at heart, even though I do actually 335 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:28,400 Speaker 1: think that's fundamentally true. What what we're doing is showing 336 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: through this model the devices can advance with relatively little 337 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 1: upfront costs and with the contribution of many, many members. Yeah, yeah, 338 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: that's a review phrase. It really well. I think that 339 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: people have this self interest which also serves out of 340 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 1: people's interests, and and it's like, yeah, I've seen it 341 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: in all kinds of open source communities, like we've reported 342 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: before on three D printed guns, which is obviously it's 343 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 1: kind of a different end of the spectrum. But it's 344 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: fascinating to see this global exchange. And I'm sure you 345 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: have people. You've mentioned that there are people in MYANMA 346 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: who are who are printing your tournic case. Right. We 347 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: were amazed when people from my and mar had reached 348 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: out and said that we've senior tourniquet and we want 349 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: to implement it. We have situation that's very similar to Gaza. 350 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: We thought that's exactly what we want. What they did 351 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: was two things. One they took our instructions and they 352 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 1: used them, but then they also fed back to us 353 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: how those instructions were incomplete, how they could be better, 354 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: and some design changes that made their lives better. Again 355 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: amazing by them using it, by them taking, they also gave. 356 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: And that's the sort of relationship, the kind of solidarity 357 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:54,440 Speaker 1: that we've seen. Whatever other people have used our devices, 358 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 1: we've noticed that they take, and it's it's not a problem. 359 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: If people in me and had just taken and not 360 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: given anything back, that's fine too, because it doesn't take 361 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: anything away from us to share. This is this is 362 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,919 Speaker 1: a kind of sharing where the more you share, the 363 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: more there's potential for benefit, but there's never a loss. 364 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: You never lose by sharing in that sense. We're not 365 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: also trying to present it as though we need people 366 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: to share for us to feel that this model works. 367 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 1: We don't. But we're already making it anyway. We're already 368 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: using it anyway. We're sharing, and some people help out 369 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:33,199 Speaker 1: by contributing black and some people don't. It's it seems 370 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: to me to be the most effective way to develop 371 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 1: devices for low costs and make sure that they get 372 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: out to where they need to be. Yeah, because they 373 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: can century and people who need them can find them. 374 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: As you found out, right like people across the world. 375 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,919 Speaker 1: Do you have a sense of where else they're being used? 376 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: The turnickets right now are being used in Gaza, in 377 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 1: Ukraine and in me and mar if they're being used 378 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: in other places. Were not really aware of it, but 379 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: people aren't compelled to make us aware of it. Um 380 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: and and all three of those locations have moved forward 381 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: the project tremendously. For example, for Ukraine, Uh, the Ukrainian 382 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: support people weren't really able to contribute so much their 383 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: own ability to construct and make, but they were able 384 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: to contribute really important research, financial and testing capabilities. And 385 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: so of course a project like this costs money. They're like, hey, look, 386 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,719 Speaker 1: you know, we don't have farms print farms, but we 387 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 1: do have some cash that we want to put into it. 388 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 1: And we were able to use that money very very effectively, 389 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: more effectively than if they would have bought the pieces. 390 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 1: Two then create the capacity for them to go and 391 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: make their own turn accounts. Okay, so yeah, let's talk 392 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: about that. That's fascinating and uh, and we could maybe 393 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: contrasted to a sort of another model, right like if um, 394 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: because you you understand you're able to go to Ukraine 395 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 1: and help them set up as opposed to Yeah, it 396 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: would have taken months, I imagine to do that with 397 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: I don't know how they make the cats, but they 398 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: like they molded or something. But with with a non 399 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: sort of with a non open source, non printed model, 400 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: like to set up a tournicate factory in Ukraine or 401 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: Poland would take months, right, yes, absolutely, but you're not 402 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: going to There's two reasons why North American Rescue I'll 403 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 1: just call them now from here on out, won't do that. 404 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: One of them is that that conflict at some point 405 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: will end. It's very expensive to set up production lines. 406 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 1: And the other thing is the more tourniquets you put 407 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: into the market, the cheaper tourniquets get, you know, supply 408 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: and demand. Like we learned that one pretty well from capitalism. 409 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 1: And so they have an inherent disincentive, whether they recognize 410 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,479 Speaker 1: it or not, whether it's conscious or not. North American 411 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 1: Rescue and all these companies have an inherent disincentive in 412 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:01,959 Speaker 1: flooding the market with tourniquets, whereas we do not for us. 413 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: It's the opposite. The more people we lose pretty much 414 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 1: Glia loses about ten to twenty dollars per tourniquet that 415 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,439 Speaker 1: we manufacture, we have no incentive to keep doing it, 416 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: and we want other people to do it because we 417 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 1: want as many tourniquets to be provided as possible. What 418 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: we do then is we heavily subsidize the tourniquets using 419 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,360 Speaker 1: our own internal funds and and fundraising that that we 420 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: do with the goal of getting them out there so 421 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: that deaths can be prevented. And so we want other 422 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 1: people producing. When I go there, every tourniquet somebody else 423 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 1: makes instead of me is less headache for me, is 424 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,199 Speaker 1: less pain for me, and is less financial loss for 425 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 1: me and for Glea. Of course, so our incentives are different. 426 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: They want a shortage consciously or not, and we want 427 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: an abundance. We want everybody to have tourniquet in their pocket. 428 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: Now that's that's our goal. Yeah, Can you talk a 429 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: little bit about your experiences in Ukraine? You with that 430 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: pretty recently, right, Ukraine is a very very complicated subject 431 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 1: when it comes to tourniquets, because the tourniquet wasn't at 432 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:27,360 Speaker 1: this h I'm gonna mind my words very carefully. I'm 433 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: not Ukrainian, I'm not a Ukrainian doctor, and my experience 434 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 1: there is very limited. I am in solidarity with the 435 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 1: medical community in Ukraine, and part of being in solidarity 436 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: with a medical community is recognizing that even when there 437 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,719 Speaker 1: are weaknesses, it is not my place to insert myself 438 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: into their processes. And so the way that the Ukrainians 439 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 1: have approached tourniquets is at the outset to ban all 440 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: three the printed tourniquets, and two basically make it so 441 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: that only what they considered to be high quality tourniqts, 442 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: mainly the CAT and another another one or two models 443 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 1: were available in there. This unfortunately created a tremendous shortage, 444 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: and the other thing that functionally happened was a disconnect 445 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: between the policy makers within the medical community and the 446 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: people on the ground. The people on the ground, of course, 447 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: are doing whatever they can to provide care wherever they can, 448 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: and the policy makers are a little bit more disconnected 449 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 1: from that and so have different considerations. The shortage then 450 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: creates this um difficulty. You know, there are of course 451 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: three D printed tourniquets aren't accepted officially in Ukraine, but 452 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 1: there are an abundance of three D printed tourniquets in 453 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: Ukraine because the people on the ground are accepting them 454 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 1: um and what we see is a kind of grassroots 455 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: experimentation with how it is that we can prevent deaths. 456 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: The other difficulty is that tourniquets are a tool, and 457 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 1: in bad hands, this tool isn't going to work, even 458 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: if it's a great tool. And so one of the 459 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 1: things that I realized, and I think everybody at this point, 460 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: I'm not saying anything that's new or unknown to the community, 461 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: we all realize that without appropriate training and how to 462 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,719 Speaker 1: use a tourniquet, they're not going to work um. And 463 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: so even high quality tourniquets out there in the field 464 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: are failing because they're being used improperly and it's causing 465 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,640 Speaker 1: unnecessary deaths. So I don't know how deep you want 466 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 1: to get into that experience in Ukraine, but I think 467 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: what we can say is that it's important to be 468 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: in solidarity with that community, and as such, we're providing 469 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: them all of the experience that we have and all 470 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,679 Speaker 1: of the capability that we have to produce tourniquets that 471 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:08,239 Speaker 1: the Ukrainians themselves, both officially and on the in the 472 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 1: front lines, are able to use and feel are actually 473 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: safe for their patients. Yeah. Yeah, that's a difficult situation. 474 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: I think. Obviously a lot of what's happening in Ukraine 475 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: has been necessarily like like rushed, and it's somewhat perhaps 476 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: chaoticism it's the wrong word, but it took a while 477 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 1: for people to fully sort of understand that the necessities 478 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: of the scale and the scale of the conflict, or 479 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 1: perhaps understand this is still the wrong word. But yeah, 480 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: to come up with the most of the way to 481 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: do the least harm. I guess that's such a great 482 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: way of to frame it. And I think even from 483 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: your experience as you see that very often in these 484 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: situations that's the name of the game. It's not even 485 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: doing what you know is best, but rather figuring out 486 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: what the least horst scenario is. Yeah, yeah, so often, 487 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: I think, and it's very easy I think Tom to 488 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: look backseat drive feeds things right from from positions of 489 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: safety and sort of a plenty, you know, to say, oh, 490 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 1: what should then they should do that, which I think 491 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: you did very well to explain that the first and 492 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: most important thing is to be instolidarity with the people 493 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: there and to hopefully allow their experience to guide us 494 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: in how we can best help them to to prevent 495 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: death prevent harm. And so, can you talk about what 496 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: you were able to do there, what sort of interventions 497 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: could you make to hopefully help prevent more dying. The 498 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: main thing that that we did in terms of so 499 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: I kind of was there in with two hats on. 500 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: One of them was the trying to get manufacturing hat, 501 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 1: and the other one was as an emergency doctor. Because remember, 502 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: fundamentally what brought me to medical devices in the first 503 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: place was that I was an emergency doctor having problems 504 00:29:54,680 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: actually caring for my patients. As a tourniquet manufacturer basically 505 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: was about engaging with other people who are making and 506 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: using tourniquets to understand some of the roadblocks and problems. 507 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 1: One of the biggest ones is that there isn't a 508 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 1: great way to test units of tournikets. So traditionally tourniquets 509 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: are tested by design. Uh Nar says, here's our design 510 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: and here's how we tested it, and then we accept 511 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: that this particular company will make this particular device to 512 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 1: this particular standard. But in the Ukraine, especially with the 513 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: presence of replicas and three D two tourniquets, there became 514 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: a new problem, how do you test each unit rather 515 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: than a specific line, and working on that, I don't 516 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: know how into the leads you want me to get, 517 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: but working on that is still a problem that is unsolved, 518 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: but has been one of the biggest issues that we've 519 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: been dealing with on the emergency medicine side. Of course, 520 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: when I provide direct care to patients, I was in 521 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: a hospital on one of the communities, on the front line, 522 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: on one of the fronts, and so providing direct care 523 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 1: became important. And working with the doctors, many of whom 524 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: didn't really experience that much have that much experience with 525 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: trauma patients, so working with them to share our experiences 526 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: from GAZA in low resource trauma medicine, and also to 527 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: gain from them their experiences because of course their scenarios 528 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: and situations are different. It's more artillery based rather than 529 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: small arms fire or um sort of bombing based, so 530 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: they're there are different scenarios. I had a lot to 531 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: learn from them. I did, and UM I tried to 532 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: contribute some of our experiences as well. The training I 533 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 1: think is probably the number one problem right now, but 534 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: that's my personal opinion. Is one doctor who is there 535 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: for a limited period of time so that that individual 536 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: unit tests that you're you're working towards is um because 537 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: I know in theory, at least a CAT it's a 538 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: single youth device, right and so in theory, if you 539 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: if you just slapped it on something that could mess 540 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 1: your pressure, and Titan did that. Devices and being used 541 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: and shouldn't be used again to provide care. Is that 542 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 1: the bottom that you're running up against, or is it 543 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: sort of making a way to test things it's replicable 544 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: and cheap and accessible. Reusability was the number one problem 545 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 1: that we tried to tackle in Gaza because we couldn't 546 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: print tourniquets as fast as they're being used, and so 547 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: we re used them up to ten times. And when 548 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 1: I was in the hospital, I walked by this I 549 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: V pole with a bunch of turniquets hanging from it, 550 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: and I instantly recognized what I was looking at. That 551 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: was a tourniquet rewashed station in which tourniquets that came 552 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 1: off of patients who were being rewashed, dried, and then 553 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: sent back out into the field, whatever you think the 554 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: standards are for tourniquet. When there's this level of of shortage, 555 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: that's what's going to happen. That's what happened in Gaza, 556 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: and that's why happened in the Ukraine. That's what I 557 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: saw in my own eyes. Of course, we don't need 558 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: to stretch that far anymore to recognize us. What were 559 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: people doing with the ninety five masks two years ago 560 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: in my hospital. We were holding them, storing them, watching them, 561 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: reusing them. So this is something that we see whenever 562 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 1: there's a shortage, and it makes the unit testing that 563 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: much more important because if you could take an already 564 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: used tourniquet and assure that it will succeed the next 565 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 1: time it's being used, that is so valuable, so valuable, 566 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: and it cuts down every tourniquet you can reuse as 567 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: a tourniquet. You don't have to import, you don't have 568 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 1: to buy, you don't have to package, you don't have 569 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: to ship over all of these lines. Yeah, yeah, of course, 570 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 1: and I think it's probably we should probably address like 571 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: the the ways in which they can fail because I think, uh, 572 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: look it just people in the United to State if 573 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:57,719 Speaker 1: in an extremely like resource Ridge setting right, we'll probably 574 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: have knowingly or unknowingly acquired to want to get on 575 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: Amazon or somewhere else eBay that that might not be 576 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: a real one, and so I want it's real, but 577 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 1: we might not be a reliable one. Can you explain 578 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: like like how they fail and what the consequences of 579 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 1: that failure. Ah, there are two kinds of failures when 580 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: we talk about turniquets. One of them is what we 581 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,800 Speaker 1: would call a technical failure, and the other one is 582 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: a clinical failure. A technical failure is the easiest one 583 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 1: for most people to spot. The tourniquet literally breaks in 584 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 1: your hand. And that said, you hear a crack, you 585 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 1: see something crack, you see a break, things fall apart 586 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: the end. And so one of the things that we 587 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: we want is to minimize these by over engineering. So, 588 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 1: for example, the first Glia tourniquet was engineered to spec 589 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 1: you're supposed to be able to turn it three times, 590 00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 1: and so we made it so you can turn it 591 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: three times. And then what I realized is that even I, 592 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: who is like super well trained, I would be in 593 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,359 Speaker 1: the field running while my eyes were full of tear gas, 594 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,759 Speaker 1: while people are shooting and I didn't. I'd forget did 595 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,399 Speaker 1: I turn it two times? Three times? So we over 596 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 1: we started over engineering the tourniquets. At a certain point. 597 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 1: Of course, every TURNIKID is going to break. You turn 598 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 1: it enough times, every turniquet is going to break. But 599 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: that's not necessarily going to be the case if you 600 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,800 Speaker 1: have even a moderate amount of training. I'm going to 601 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: turn it for five times, but I'm not going to 602 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: turn it twenty times. So the technical failures are one 603 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,839 Speaker 1: kind of failure. The other one is clinical failure. Now 604 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 1: here's something that I wonder if you knew about thirty 605 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 1: tourniquets from the gold Standard Company fail They fail on application, 606 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 1: and that number goes up to if you were to 607 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 1: check sixty seconds after application. So what does this tell us? 608 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 1: What this tells us is clinical failure is actually the 609 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,440 Speaker 1: important marker here because we know turniquets break, and we 610 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: know turniquets fail in general, especially turnickets that have been 611 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:13,840 Speaker 1: in some g i's pocket in Afghanistan for six months. 612 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: Those ones that their failure rate can go even higher. 613 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: And so what we train people to do is to 614 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: recognize clinical success. Put on a tourniquet, did the blood stop? No? 615 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 1: Put on a second turniquet, did the blood stop? No, 616 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 1: try a third one if you have them, obviously, and 617 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 1: so the routine training involves applying a second tourniquet. And 618 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 1: one of the like happiest moments for me, I mean, 619 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: this is obviously bitter sweet, but it was when I 620 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 1: saw a patient who was brought in by a medic 621 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 1: who I had I had been in the training four 622 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,799 Speaker 1: and he had applied to turniquets to a guy who 623 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,919 Speaker 1: certainly would have died had he had he not had 624 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 1: the tourniquet up flights on and I was exaguinating so 625 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 1: much injury so severe that he needed a couple of 626 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 1: turnickets to really get it under control. So it's it's 627 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:14,279 Speaker 1: where we have to recognize that there is no magic tool. 628 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: This is part of an overall program. There's no three 629 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 1: D printer that's going to train people just going to 630 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: make you stuff. Then you have to do the rest 631 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: of it, right Yeah. Yeah, So I think if we, uh, 632 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: we should look maybe at the fact that like I 633 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,400 Speaker 1: live in the United States and you're in Canada, and 634 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 1: I think there were like three mass shootings yesterday, right 635 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: that the that the threat of violence is certainly added 636 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:47,280 Speaker 1: high for recent times in for a why a modiverse 637 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,320 Speaker 1: range of people. Right, There's always been violence in this country. 638 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: There's always been violence against certain groups of people disproportion 639 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 1: in this country. But people are probably more concerned with 640 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 1: treating constria wounds and they would have been years ago. 641 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 1: And so if someone was looking to make one of 642 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:09,240 Speaker 1: your devices, how can they do that? And they show 643 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: or do their best to ensure that they are doing 644 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:13,399 Speaker 1: so in a way which gives them the best chance 645 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: of success. At the moment, I would say to the 646 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:20,800 Speaker 1: individual maker, don't do it, not for a life threatening situation. 647 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 1: If individual individual makers want to make turnikets, then they're 648 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,280 Speaker 1: going to have to be proficient at three big things. 649 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 1: One of them is plastics three D printing, ensuring that 650 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,319 Speaker 1: the quality of the plastic is good. The other one 651 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 1: is sewing, that is to say, assembling sold stuff. And 652 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:44,840 Speaker 1: the third one is is quality assurance, because even done perfectly, 653 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: a certain number of tourniquets aren't going to make it. 654 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 1: And that quality assurance is both at the moment of 655 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 1: manufacture and then over time, because of course all devices 656 00:38:55,520 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 1: deteriorate over time, but tourniquets have such an import role 657 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 1: that you have to check them periodically to make sure 658 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,800 Speaker 1: everything is okay. So I would say to the individual maker, 659 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 1: don't or if you do, do it as an exercise 660 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: rather than as an actual tool. If somebody is in 661 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 1: an emergency situation, there's nothing they can do except to 662 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,800 Speaker 1: do it, then be in touch with us. So, for example, 663 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 1: there are makers in in countries that have been in 664 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,080 Speaker 1: touch and have said, okay, look, I have to do 665 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:31,920 Speaker 1: this because the situation here is bad. We support them 666 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,239 Speaker 1: as best as we can. We try to send people 667 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 1: out to them, or we try to have them ship 668 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,719 Speaker 1: units to us. We try to get them up and going. 669 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:44,279 Speaker 1: Glia is not a medical device manufacturer. GLIA is a 670 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 1: access to medicines and access to medical devices company, and 671 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,799 Speaker 1: part of that is making sure that people who are 672 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 1: making medical devices are doing them to the highest possible quality. 673 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: So if you are forced to make them, be in 674 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,600 Speaker 1: touch with us, we will help in any way that 675 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:07,719 Speaker 1: we can. However, there's another category of people, and that 676 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: is manufacturers who already know how to make medical devices. 677 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:17,399 Speaker 1: To those people, we say, take our stuff, please use 678 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,320 Speaker 1: it please. It is there for the taking, and it 679 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 1: is high quality, it works really well, and if it's 680 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 1: missing something, tell us we'll make it better for you 681 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 1: and for us. Yeah, that's great. I think that's really 682 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,200 Speaker 1: excellent advice and perhaps a good note for us to 683 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 1: finish on. Where can people find you if they want 684 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:37,440 Speaker 1: to get in touch, if they if they want to 685 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 1: look at some of the devices like making a stethoscope, 686 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,759 Speaker 1: I imagine could be like a fun project and put 687 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 1: a lot less potential risk there. So where can they 688 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: find that stuff? Absolutely, the stethoscope is such a fun project. 689 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,720 Speaker 1: It's fun because any everybody has a heart in general, 690 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,600 Speaker 1: and um you can listen to your family and friends 691 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,399 Speaker 1: and loved ones that It's one of my favorite things 692 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 1: when I'm in practice and I listen for sometimes patient 693 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:07,399 Speaker 1: will be there with their son or daughter or child, 694 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:09,279 Speaker 1: and I'll tell the kid, you want to listen to 695 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,879 Speaker 1: mommy's heart, your daddy's heart. It's one of the best things. 696 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 1: So the stethoscope is a great, fun, low risk project. 697 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,120 Speaker 1: Please go ahead and do it. Make it. You can 698 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,960 Speaker 1: find our stuff anywhere you can find printiple stuff. It's 699 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:27,279 Speaker 1: on thingy versuss on principles, it's basically everywhere or through 700 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,080 Speaker 1: our GETH hub or on the GLIA site. So that's 701 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:36,279 Speaker 1: CLIA dot org and if people want to participate, they're 702 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,959 Speaker 1: very welcome to We always want, need and love help, 703 00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,840 Speaker 1: and of course it's a community. You can never have 704 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:46,160 Speaker 1: too many friends, so we're always looking for more friends 705 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,919 Speaker 1: and love to see more people. We have a matter 706 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,879 Speaker 1: most obviously, it's not just our devices that are open source. 707 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,800 Speaker 1: We try to make our tire stack open source so 708 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,239 Speaker 1: people can join and chat with us and you know, 709 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:00,839 Speaker 1: hang out with people who are doing really, really cool 710 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:05,160 Speaker 1: and super impressive stuff. At this point, I love to 711 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 1: recognize the fact that I'm one of the least productive, 712 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,800 Speaker 1: least impressive people at clear Really the work that's happening 713 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:17,640 Speaker 1: is amazing, and it's led by lots of smart, dedicated, 714 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,799 Speaker 1: visionary people. Yeah, that's great to hear that. It's really 715 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,080 Speaker 1: cool that you can we can work with people as well, 716 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 1: So hopefully people do get in touch. I'm sure there'll 717 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,000 Speaker 1: be someone who's interested in what you're doing but has 718 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 1: something to contribute in some fashion. Yeah, thank you so 719 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:31,600 Speaker 1: much for giving us some of your evening. Is there 720 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:33,279 Speaker 1: anything else you'd like to say before we finish up. 721 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,719 Speaker 1: I think the most important thing to say is that 722 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:40,080 Speaker 1: there's this mystique that people develop you alluded to it earlier. 723 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,880 Speaker 1: There's a mystique people develop around medical devices. Medical devices 724 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:49,360 Speaker 1: are solutions to problems, and they were made by people 725 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,960 Speaker 1: like me who don't know what the hell they're doing sometimes, 726 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:56,920 Speaker 1: and so let's not you know, aggrandize or like separate 727 00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,200 Speaker 1: ourselves from the people who are doing this work. Yes 728 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,640 Speaker 1: we have to be just, Yes we have to be vigorous, 729 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:04,520 Speaker 1: but at the same time we can all contribute to 730 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,080 Speaker 1: be a part of this very cool And can people 731 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,360 Speaker 1: find you personally anyway? Do you have social media that 732 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 1: that people could follow. Yeah, if people look at my name, 733 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,319 Speaker 1: Terry Labanni, I'm on all the all the socials, as 734 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:17,840 Speaker 1: is Glia as well, So you can contact me or 735 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,880 Speaker 1: Glia and participate in in anything that you want. And 736 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:25,120 Speaker 1: like I said, we we always welcome friends. Great, wonderful, 737 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:27,880 Speaker 1: Thanks so much man, Thank you so much. That was 738 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:34,960 Speaker 1: such a pleasure. It could happen here as a production 739 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 1: of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, 740 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 1: visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check 741 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:42,920 Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 742 00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,000 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources 743 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,600 Speaker 1: for it could happen here, updated monthly at cool Zone 744 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,400 Speaker 1: media dot com, slash sources, Thanks for listening.