1 00:00:14,036 --> 00:00:21,636 Speaker 1: Pushing. So we were on the We were on the 2 00:00:21,796 --> 00:00:26,996 Speaker 1: Kenwood High School tennis team together, and I remember when 3 00:00:27,036 --> 00:00:30,396 Speaker 1: we were on the team together that you were voted 4 00:00:30,436 --> 00:00:34,636 Speaker 1: most improved players our junior year because I worked, because 5 00:00:34,636 --> 00:00:37,516 Speaker 1: I worked really hard. So our junior year, our junior year, 6 00:00:37,596 --> 00:00:40,716 Speaker 1: you really get really good. It's really admirable like you were. 7 00:00:40,836 --> 00:00:42,836 Speaker 1: I know, that's right. So you were voted our junior 8 00:00:42,916 --> 00:00:46,156 Speaker 1: year that award. That award is the second most important awarding. No, 9 00:00:46,836 --> 00:00:48,396 Speaker 1: to me, it's first place. But I just want to 10 00:00:48,436 --> 00:00:52,516 Speaker 1: add that our senior year you got voted most improved again. 11 00:00:55,396 --> 00:00:58,156 Speaker 1: You got you. You were the only player in the 12 00:00:58,236 --> 00:01:03,116 Speaker 1: history of any sport to get voted most improved two 13 00:01:03,196 --> 00:01:06,716 Speaker 1: years in a row. That is only I looked at him. 14 00:01:06,756 --> 00:01:11,036 Speaker 1: I am a hard work No, you are my game. 15 00:01:11,876 --> 00:01:14,156 Speaker 1: You know that book from Good to Great? Come on, 16 00:01:14,556 --> 00:01:25,276 Speaker 1: you should write a book Most Improved. I'm Khalil Dubron 17 00:01:25,396 --> 00:01:29,236 Speaker 1: Muhammad and I'm Ben Austin. Were two best friends, one black, 18 00:01:29,476 --> 00:01:32,716 Speaker 1: one white. I'm a historian and I'm a journalist and 19 00:01:32,836 --> 00:01:36,796 Speaker 1: the better tennis player. And this is some of my 20 00:01:36,836 --> 00:01:39,676 Speaker 1: best friends are in this show. We wrestle with the 21 00:01:39,756 --> 00:01:44,636 Speaker 1: challenges and the absurdities of a deeply divided and unequal country. 22 00:01:45,196 --> 00:01:47,956 Speaker 1: On this episode, we're going to talk about our favorite sports, tennis. 23 00:01:48,116 --> 00:01:51,196 Speaker 1: I mean, this year's US Open was incredible in so 24 00:01:51,236 --> 00:01:55,036 Speaker 1: many ways, two young women of color coming from way 25 00:01:55,076 --> 00:01:59,996 Speaker 1: behind to capture the hearts and minds I'm tennis fans everywhere, 26 00:02:00,276 --> 00:02:03,556 Speaker 1: and really that leads us into this fascinating discussion about 27 00:02:03,556 --> 00:02:07,436 Speaker 1: women's tennis. Professional women's tennis. It's so diverse, and it's 28 00:02:07,476 --> 00:02:10,156 Speaker 1: so much more diverse than other sports. How did it 29 00:02:10,276 --> 00:02:17,276 Speaker 1: get that way? And what can we learn from it? Something? 30 00:02:18,516 --> 00:02:32,036 Speaker 1: Don't One of the reasons that that women's professional tennis 31 00:02:32,436 --> 00:02:35,556 Speaker 1: is is really diverse and that men's professional tenants is 32 00:02:35,636 --> 00:02:38,316 Speaker 1: much less so is that for women who are athletic, 33 00:02:38,676 --> 00:02:42,036 Speaker 1: this is the most lucrative professional sport. There's no other 34 00:02:42,036 --> 00:02:44,036 Speaker 1: sport where you can you can make money like this 35 00:02:44,916 --> 00:02:48,716 Speaker 1: and p W NBA nothing. Yeah. Yeah, And just to acknowledge, 36 00:02:48,756 --> 00:02:52,156 Speaker 1: people like Billy Jean King are we're part of the 37 00:02:53,076 --> 00:02:57,156 Speaker 1: effort to make that possible. Because even someone like ALTHEA Gibson, 38 00:02:57,876 --> 00:03:01,756 Speaker 1: who was trailblazing in every way, uh and you know, 39 00:03:01,876 --> 00:03:05,476 Speaker 1: led the game for in the mid nineteen fifties. Um, 40 00:03:05,636 --> 00:03:09,116 Speaker 1: struggle financially because she she never made much money. Part 41 00:03:09,196 --> 00:03:11,636 Speaker 1: of it was her amateur status when she was winning 42 00:03:11,676 --> 00:03:14,316 Speaker 1: those tournaments. But you know, it's a it's a it's 43 00:03:14,356 --> 00:03:18,596 Speaker 1: a tale that fortunately, in this case, we can say 44 00:03:18,916 --> 00:03:22,036 Speaker 1: has led to a really positive outcome in terms of 45 00:03:22,076 --> 00:03:24,636 Speaker 1: equity for women's tennis. And if you're a young man, 46 00:03:24,836 --> 00:03:27,396 Speaker 1: whether you're white or black or Hispanic or Asian or whatever. 47 00:03:27,436 --> 00:03:30,756 Speaker 1: In America, you know, the menu of sports that you 48 00:03:30,796 --> 00:03:33,596 Speaker 1: can go to to if you're incredibly athletic and make 49 00:03:33,636 --> 00:03:35,996 Speaker 1: a lot of money is much much bigger, and tennis 50 00:03:36,036 --> 00:03:38,916 Speaker 1: is sort of down the list. And yet tennis remains 51 00:03:38,916 --> 00:03:42,516 Speaker 1: this predominantly white elite sport totally, and so the progress 52 00:03:42,516 --> 00:03:44,556 Speaker 1: of these black women and women of color in general 53 00:03:44,676 --> 00:03:47,196 Speaker 1: is all the more stunning. Yeah. Yeah, So so let's 54 00:03:47,196 --> 00:03:49,916 Speaker 1: look at what US women's tennis has actually done to 55 00:03:49,996 --> 00:03:53,196 Speaker 1: become so diverse and what they still need to do. 56 00:03:53,556 --> 00:03:55,556 Speaker 1: You know, you think about the Williams sisters, and you 57 00:03:55,556 --> 00:03:58,876 Speaker 1: think about Sloane Stevens, you think about Coco Gough, Madison Keys. 58 00:03:59,516 --> 00:04:01,876 Speaker 1: When the Williams sisters were in the US Open in 59 00:04:01,916 --> 00:04:05,436 Speaker 1: twenty ten, they were the only two black women in 60 00:04:05,476 --> 00:04:08,076 Speaker 1: the draw. Of one hundred and twenty eight. Yeah, in 61 00:04:08,156 --> 00:04:12,236 Speaker 1: twenty twenty twelve black women were in that's a tenth 62 00:04:12,276 --> 00:04:15,756 Speaker 1: of the entire draw. Yeah. No, it's incredible, and maybe 63 00:04:15,756 --> 00:04:17,996 Speaker 1: there's a lesson there about how that happened. Yeah, but 64 00:04:18,036 --> 00:04:20,996 Speaker 1: we're gonna look at how much that diversity has actually 65 00:04:21,116 --> 00:04:26,516 Speaker 1: changed historically very very very white space. So let's do it. 66 00:04:27,156 --> 00:04:30,836 Speaker 1: Serve it up, Khalil, spin the racket, let's go. I'm 67 00:04:30,836 --> 00:04:44,516 Speaker 1: not going to take it easy on you. Okay, Before 68 00:04:44,596 --> 00:04:47,676 Speaker 1: we talk about some of the greatest athletes who have 69 00:04:47,716 --> 00:04:55,876 Speaker 1: ever lived, let's talk about ourselves. A couple of dudes 70 00:04:55,916 --> 00:04:58,276 Speaker 1: from the South Side Chicago. Yeah. Yeah. We spend a 71 00:04:58,316 --> 00:05:00,916 Speaker 1: week together this summer our families, as we do almost 72 00:05:00,916 --> 00:05:04,596 Speaker 1: every summer, and what you and I end up doing 73 00:05:05,076 --> 00:05:07,796 Speaker 1: is pretty much playing tennis every day like we've been 74 00:05:07,916 --> 00:05:11,436 Speaker 1: we've been We've been doing this for most of our lives. Now, 75 00:05:11,476 --> 00:05:13,756 Speaker 1: we've been playing tennis together for like thirty five years. 76 00:05:14,276 --> 00:05:16,956 Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. We've tried to get our kids involved. 77 00:05:16,996 --> 00:05:21,876 Speaker 1: You know, my two girls played youth tennis, took tennis 78 00:05:21,956 --> 00:05:24,036 Speaker 1: lessons in tennis camp. We actually have a kind of 79 00:05:24,076 --> 00:05:27,316 Speaker 1: strange tennis upbringing for the rest of the country. Being 80 00:05:27,356 --> 00:05:29,116 Speaker 1: on the south side of Chicago, we're kind of in 81 00:05:29,156 --> 00:05:33,236 Speaker 1: this this tennis bubble where a lot of the coaches, 82 00:05:33,956 --> 00:05:36,236 Speaker 1: i'd say almost all of the teaching pros, and most 83 00:05:36,276 --> 00:05:38,956 Speaker 1: of the players are black. Yep. I mean we came 84 00:05:38,996 --> 00:05:41,716 Speaker 1: of age in it. And this southeast part of the 85 00:05:41,756 --> 00:05:46,316 Speaker 1: city that was by the nineteen seventies was just brimming 86 00:05:46,436 --> 00:05:50,436 Speaker 1: with tennis activity. And I remember, I have I have 87 00:05:50,636 --> 00:05:55,716 Speaker 1: a crystal clear picture. I was probably five or six 88 00:05:55,796 --> 00:05:58,156 Speaker 1: years old, and I was tagging along with my mom, 89 00:05:58,876 --> 00:06:01,676 Speaker 1: who I have this total memory of her in like 90 00:06:01,716 --> 00:06:05,116 Speaker 1: a total like badass tennis outfit, you know, you know, 91 00:06:05,236 --> 00:06:08,756 Speaker 1: she had a cute outfit on that's right, that's right, 92 00:06:09,236 --> 00:06:13,356 Speaker 1: and you know, a little little tennis skirt, and of 93 00:06:13,356 --> 00:06:16,756 Speaker 1: course back then the rackets were wooden. I still remember 94 00:06:16,756 --> 00:06:19,796 Speaker 1: her giving me one and uh and I asked her recently, 95 00:06:19,956 --> 00:06:21,996 Speaker 1: you know, just to make sure my memory was correct, 96 00:06:22,076 --> 00:06:24,556 Speaker 1: you know, did I get it right? Was it because 97 00:06:24,596 --> 00:06:27,356 Speaker 1: of her that I was first exposed to the game. 98 00:06:27,436 --> 00:06:31,876 Speaker 1: And here's what she said, Yes, you were a toddler, 99 00:06:32,956 --> 00:06:35,796 Speaker 1: probably four or five. Then you had to hang along. 100 00:06:36,236 --> 00:06:38,796 Speaker 1: There were other children there, so it was an open 101 00:06:38,876 --> 00:06:42,396 Speaker 1: area and you could play with others and you were safe, 102 00:06:43,556 --> 00:06:45,516 Speaker 1: and you can watch us if you wanted to. But 103 00:06:45,676 --> 00:06:48,076 Speaker 1: you were kids, so you kind of played. So about 104 00:06:48,076 --> 00:06:51,516 Speaker 1: the tender age of being you know, four or five, 105 00:06:52,036 --> 00:06:54,516 Speaker 1: all the way up until I wanted to say, about 106 00:06:54,556 --> 00:06:58,436 Speaker 1: eight or nine, I stuck with the game and until 107 00:06:58,516 --> 00:07:00,436 Speaker 1: until I was about eight or nine. Yeah, until you 108 00:07:00,476 --> 00:07:03,756 Speaker 1: were about eight or nine, until you were at the 109 00:07:03,836 --> 00:07:07,316 Speaker 1: age where you had friends where you didn't have to 110 00:07:07,316 --> 00:07:10,796 Speaker 1: come with me to tennis. But yes, you enjoyed it 111 00:07:10,876 --> 00:07:15,596 Speaker 1: as well, and apparently so well as to the fact 112 00:07:15,636 --> 00:07:19,276 Speaker 1: that you continue. Man, it's so great to hear your mom. 113 00:07:19,276 --> 00:07:21,516 Speaker 1: I mean, I think I think people would be surprised 114 00:07:21,796 --> 00:07:24,436 Speaker 1: and how sweet she sounds that to hear that that 115 00:07:24,676 --> 00:07:30,796 Speaker 1: her nickname was Shorty rough. Yes, yeah, she did take 116 00:07:30,836 --> 00:07:34,436 Speaker 1: no stuff stuff. So there's a tennis boom, and it's 117 00:07:34,436 --> 00:07:37,276 Speaker 1: interesting to think how that creeps into all parts of 118 00:07:37,396 --> 00:07:40,836 Speaker 1: American life. And there is a famous tennis match that's 119 00:07:40,836 --> 00:07:45,116 Speaker 1: televised in nineteen seventy five of Arthur Ash beating Jimmy Connors. 120 00:07:45,796 --> 00:07:49,796 Speaker 1: Jimmy Connors plays against Arthur Ash in a very exciting final. 121 00:07:52,956 --> 00:07:57,596 Speaker 1: Despite the determination and spectacular points scoring of favorite Connors, 122 00:07:57,636 --> 00:08:00,076 Speaker 1: the cool head of Arthur Ash helps him to stay 123 00:08:00,156 --> 00:08:05,836 Speaker 1: on top. Arthur Ash being an African American male player, 124 00:08:05,916 --> 00:08:09,956 Speaker 1: Jimmy Connors was like invincible, and he beats them in Wimbledon, 125 00:08:09,996 --> 00:08:12,436 Speaker 1: and it's televised, And I think that also helps to 126 00:08:12,476 --> 00:08:17,276 Speaker 1: sort of extend this boom into into Black America as well. Yeah. Yeah, 127 00:08:17,316 --> 00:08:20,756 Speaker 1: Actually I asked my mom about whether she had been 128 00:08:20,796 --> 00:08:25,196 Speaker 1: influenced by seeing people play tennis, and she mentioned Arthur 129 00:08:25,236 --> 00:08:28,956 Speaker 1: ashe directly. Yeah, you know, and so in our youth 130 00:08:29,396 --> 00:08:31,676 Speaker 1: sort of feeding off of this boom. A tennis club 131 00:08:31,716 --> 00:08:34,476 Speaker 1: opens on the South Side of Chicago. I'd be curious 132 00:08:34,476 --> 00:08:39,276 Speaker 1: to hear what you think of like seeing leaders, seeing teachers, 133 00:08:39,316 --> 00:08:43,036 Speaker 1: seeing coaches who are all black, and it imprints something 134 00:08:43,076 --> 00:08:45,156 Speaker 1: on you, you know, it's it's not it didn't seem 135 00:08:45,196 --> 00:08:47,876 Speaker 1: like a white sport, at least within that bubble. Yeah. 136 00:08:47,996 --> 00:08:51,356 Speaker 1: First of all, to even have a racquet club in 137 00:08:51,396 --> 00:08:55,676 Speaker 1: your neighborhood, you know, marks our neighborhood as largely middle class, 138 00:08:55,756 --> 00:08:59,156 Speaker 1: which meant we had access in a way that wouldn't 139 00:08:59,156 --> 00:09:03,396 Speaker 1: be true in the vast majority of communities that were 140 00:09:03,476 --> 00:09:07,236 Speaker 1: predominantly black in Chicago or anywhere else. And of course, 141 00:09:07,396 --> 00:09:09,516 Speaker 1: part of you know, even talking to my mom about 142 00:09:09,556 --> 00:09:14,636 Speaker 1: this is being reminded of how the southeast part of Chicago, 143 00:09:14,676 --> 00:09:17,676 Speaker 1: stretching from Hyde Park to Chatham and South Shore. You know, 144 00:09:17,716 --> 00:09:21,676 Speaker 1: all these places were really for the nineteen seventies and eighties, 145 00:09:21,996 --> 00:09:25,396 Speaker 1: a large pocket of black middle class communities. And out 146 00:09:25,396 --> 00:09:27,476 Speaker 1: of these communities where we grew up, one of the 147 00:09:27,516 --> 00:09:32,076 Speaker 1: most amazing black women tennis players emerged Katrina Adams. I mean, 148 00:09:33,196 --> 00:09:36,756 Speaker 1: growing up going to the Hyde Park Racket Club, she 149 00:09:36,956 --> 00:09:39,876 Speaker 1: was the best player, boy or girl that I ever saw. 150 00:09:40,916 --> 00:09:45,036 Speaker 1: You know, that was powerful to see. And she comes 151 00:09:45,036 --> 00:09:47,676 Speaker 1: out of the junior tennis among us and goes out 152 00:09:47,676 --> 00:09:50,796 Speaker 1: to play at Northwestern University, and then she goes on 153 00:09:50,836 --> 00:09:55,956 Speaker 1: the pro circuit and she wins twenty doubles tournaments. That's amazing. 154 00:09:56,516 --> 00:09:59,436 Speaker 1: And after she retires, maybe this is even more amazing. 155 00:09:59,796 --> 00:10:02,596 Speaker 1: She becomes the president of the USTA, the United States 156 00:10:02,676 --> 00:10:06,516 Speaker 1: Tennis Association, and she's actually just written a book about 157 00:10:06,556 --> 00:10:10,596 Speaker 1: her experience. It's called Own the Arena, Getting Ahead, making 158 00:10:10,596 --> 00:10:14,036 Speaker 1: a difference, and succeeding as the only one. Yep, and 159 00:10:14,156 --> 00:10:17,836 Speaker 1: you know what she means by the only one. So 160 00:10:17,876 --> 00:10:20,636 Speaker 1: I went and interviewed her about diversity in women's tennis. 161 00:10:21,116 --> 00:10:24,236 Speaker 1: People look at us differently. It's just an automatic thing 162 00:10:24,356 --> 00:10:27,116 Speaker 1: to do, and I mean, that's just human nature. And 163 00:10:27,196 --> 00:10:33,116 Speaker 1: so anytime they are doing something that's different, the first 164 00:10:33,116 --> 00:10:35,476 Speaker 1: thing that comes up is race. And it shouldn't be 165 00:10:35,516 --> 00:10:37,276 Speaker 1: that way because other players who are doing the same 166 00:10:37,316 --> 00:10:40,516 Speaker 1: thing and behavior is the same way or even more 167 00:10:41,156 --> 00:10:45,036 Speaker 1: outrageous or whatever it is. But yet our women of 168 00:10:45,036 --> 00:10:49,316 Speaker 1: color are getting blamed for different things differently. When I 169 00:10:49,356 --> 00:10:52,196 Speaker 1: spoke to her, she says that she created a kind 170 00:10:52,196 --> 00:10:55,836 Speaker 1: of safe space, a bubble around her, separate, you know, 171 00:10:55,876 --> 00:10:58,996 Speaker 1: in all black space within the white world of tennis, 172 00:10:59,716 --> 00:11:03,276 Speaker 1: this world of not having black women. Because I immediately 173 00:11:03,316 --> 00:11:05,396 Speaker 1: went out there and was training and playing doubles with 174 00:11:05,596 --> 00:11:09,436 Speaker 1: Zena Garrison and Laura mcnill. I moved to Houston because 175 00:11:09,436 --> 00:11:12,476 Speaker 1: I was training with them, and when you are on 176 00:11:12,476 --> 00:11:15,236 Speaker 1: the tour, you are kind of isolated in your own space, 177 00:11:15,276 --> 00:11:17,996 Speaker 1: your own world, and so that was my world, in 178 00:11:18,036 --> 00:11:20,756 Speaker 1: my space. So I competed during the day, I did 179 00:11:20,796 --> 00:11:22,276 Speaker 1: what I needed to do with them. In the evening, 180 00:11:22,356 --> 00:11:26,116 Speaker 1: that was my space. Yeah, I mean, it's such a 181 00:11:26,236 --> 00:11:31,156 Speaker 1: powerful reminder of the loneliness of a sport that is 182 00:11:31,396 --> 00:11:36,476 Speaker 1: overwhelmingly white, and how important it was to be part 183 00:11:36,476 --> 00:11:39,316 Speaker 1: of a community, even if a small community. I think 184 00:11:39,356 --> 00:11:43,836 Speaker 1: what's also fascinating is that Zena Garrison and Laurie McNeill, 185 00:11:44,236 --> 00:11:46,836 Speaker 1: two black women players at that time. Yeah, yeah, two 186 00:11:46,876 --> 00:11:50,316 Speaker 1: black women players who also played in a development league 187 00:11:50,476 --> 00:11:54,796 Speaker 1: for the American Tennis Association, which was a professional society 188 00:11:54,876 --> 00:11:58,956 Speaker 1: for black players that started in nineteen sixteen. I mean 189 00:11:59,236 --> 00:12:02,036 Speaker 1: like literally over a hundred years ago, and it was 190 00:12:02,076 --> 00:12:05,316 Speaker 1: out of that world people like Arthur Ashebo even earlier, 191 00:12:05,356 --> 00:12:09,356 Speaker 1: Althea Gibson, who was the first black woman to play 192 00:12:09,156 --> 00:12:14,796 Speaker 1: at Forest Hills in the National Tennis Championship. She won 193 00:12:14,916 --> 00:12:18,156 Speaker 1: Wimbledon in nineteen fifty seven. She'd won the French Open 194 00:12:18,196 --> 00:12:20,996 Speaker 1: the year before, in nineteen fifty six. And so they, 195 00:12:21,316 --> 00:12:26,476 Speaker 1: Zina Garrison, Laurie McNeill are coming of age at a 196 00:12:26,516 --> 00:12:28,996 Speaker 1: moment when we get to see them, but they also 197 00:12:29,076 --> 00:12:34,076 Speaker 1: represent this incredible tradition that is also about integration itself, 198 00:12:34,076 --> 00:12:38,276 Speaker 1: because the ATA birth this black talent that then enters 199 00:12:38,316 --> 00:12:41,196 Speaker 1: into this larger white world. And you said, I mean 200 00:12:41,236 --> 00:12:44,836 Speaker 1: it's also about segregation. It's about complete separation that the 201 00:12:45,276 --> 00:12:50,036 Speaker 1: American Tennis Association forms in many ways because black people 202 00:12:50,036 --> 00:12:52,436 Speaker 1: were not allowed to play in the US Tennis Lawn 203 00:12:52,476 --> 00:12:55,716 Speaker 1: Association tournaments. Yeah, I mean, if it was an actual 204 00:12:55,876 --> 00:13:00,196 Speaker 1: policy that they were forbidden from playing. Yeah, all the 205 00:13:00,196 --> 00:13:02,876 Speaker 1: way into the late nineteen forties. Yep. I mean. So 206 00:13:02,956 --> 00:13:05,636 Speaker 1: we know about baseball, of course, and Jackie Robinson and 207 00:13:05,636 --> 00:13:07,596 Speaker 1: all of this, but it just, you know, people don't 208 00:13:07,636 --> 00:13:10,556 Speaker 1: necessarily think about tennis having this parallel story. So if 209 00:13:10,556 --> 00:13:12,836 Speaker 1: you think about what that means, it was huge deal 210 00:13:12,876 --> 00:13:15,996 Speaker 1: when Katrina Adams and Zena Garrison anothers rose through the 211 00:13:15,996 --> 00:13:19,796 Speaker 1: tennis ranks beginning in nineteen eighties, and then, of course 212 00:13:19,836 --> 00:13:21,836 Speaker 1: we we jump ahead just a few years to the 213 00:13:21,916 --> 00:13:24,876 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, to the end of the nineteen nineties, Serena 214 00:13:24,956 --> 00:13:28,356 Speaker 1: and Venus Williams enter the scene. She's a phenomenon and icon, 215 00:13:28,436 --> 00:13:34,636 Speaker 1: a legend, ladies and gentlemen, Serena Williams, they enter like 216 00:13:34,836 --> 00:13:38,116 Speaker 1: a hurricane French Open finals. Venus and Serena Williams have 217 00:13:38,236 --> 00:13:41,516 Speaker 1: made tennis history. They're the first sisters and the first 218 00:13:41,556 --> 00:13:44,716 Speaker 1: African Americans ever to claim the top two spots in 219 00:13:44,756 --> 00:13:48,276 Speaker 1: the world rankings. Tsunami would be better like like an 220 00:13:48,436 --> 00:13:54,316 Speaker 1: entire ocean of blackness descends upon the women's tennis game. 221 00:13:54,876 --> 00:13:57,756 Speaker 1: I've been working so hard. I like to be here, 222 00:13:58,396 --> 00:14:02,716 Speaker 1: and I was determined to get this. And it's not 223 00:14:02,756 --> 00:14:04,996 Speaker 1: just that they you know, beads and they look different. 224 00:14:05,276 --> 00:14:16,516 Speaker 1: They hit different than any other women. Venuses are a 225 00:14:16,556 --> 00:14:21,676 Speaker 1: little more wild and making more noise. They hit harder, 226 00:14:21,956 --> 00:14:25,156 Speaker 1: they serve harder, They go for their shots in a 227 00:14:25,156 --> 00:14:27,476 Speaker 1: way that women had not gone for their shots. You know, 228 00:14:27,476 --> 00:14:29,996 Speaker 1: they're returning serves and going for winners off the returns 229 00:14:29,996 --> 00:14:32,996 Speaker 1: to serves, and you know today that's basically how almost 230 00:14:33,036 --> 00:14:36,876 Speaker 1: all of the top women play. They literally redefined the game. 231 00:14:36,916 --> 00:14:40,516 Speaker 1: They redefine the game. I mean, and so Katrina Adams 232 00:14:40,516 --> 00:14:43,476 Speaker 1: even talks about, you know, like before the william sisters 233 00:14:43,516 --> 00:14:46,476 Speaker 1: and after the william sisters and this kind of transformative moment. 234 00:14:46,676 --> 00:14:52,316 Speaker 1: Their record of accomplishment is just incredible. Serena is my 235 00:14:52,436 --> 00:14:56,236 Speaker 1: favorite all time athlete, not favorite tennis player, not favorite 236 00:14:56,316 --> 00:15:01,236 Speaker 1: female athlete. She is my favorite, my favorite all time athlete. 237 00:15:01,476 --> 00:15:03,716 Speaker 1: And that's not even something you choose. It's like something 238 00:15:03,716 --> 00:15:07,556 Speaker 1: when I'm watching her, like the emotional connection. Yeah, Serena 239 00:15:07,596 --> 00:15:10,436 Speaker 1: Williams and Venus, they are ready have thirty Grand Slam 240 00:15:10,476 --> 00:15:14,756 Speaker 1: single titles between them, I mean, just unbelievable, and for 241 00:15:14,796 --> 00:15:17,876 Speaker 1: what it's worth, three Olympic gold medals for doubles and 242 00:15:17,956 --> 00:15:21,756 Speaker 1: the winning women's doubles team of all time. So it's 243 00:15:21,836 --> 00:15:26,316 Speaker 1: just it's just unparalleled. And the women, the girls who 244 00:15:26,316 --> 00:15:29,516 Speaker 1: were inspired by them over the next twenty years to 245 00:15:29,596 --> 00:15:31,716 Speaker 1: enter tennis will sort of get into that more and more. 246 00:15:32,476 --> 00:15:36,036 Speaker 1: But tennis doesn't, this white sport does not embrace them immediately. 247 00:15:36,716 --> 00:15:39,676 Speaker 1: You know that it's it's actually, you know, there's actually 248 00:15:39,716 --> 00:15:42,476 Speaker 1: a kind of backlash. So that gets us to the 249 00:15:42,556 --> 00:15:47,516 Speaker 1: Indian Wells Tournament in two thousand and one. So Venus 250 00:15:47,636 --> 00:15:50,956 Speaker 1: and Serena are twenty and nineteen at this time, and 251 00:15:51,156 --> 00:15:54,036 Speaker 1: they're supposed to play each other in the semifinals, and 252 00:15:54,436 --> 00:15:58,076 Speaker 1: Venus pulls out with an injury, and the fans don't 253 00:15:58,116 --> 00:16:00,436 Speaker 1: believe that she's really injured. They think that this is 254 00:16:00,476 --> 00:16:02,916 Speaker 1: like the setup because their dad, who doesn't want them 255 00:16:02,956 --> 00:16:06,116 Speaker 1: to play one another. So then Serena enters the finals 256 00:16:06,356 --> 00:16:09,796 Speaker 1: the next day, this nineteen year old girl, teen years old, 257 00:16:09,796 --> 00:16:12,556 Speaker 1: a girl, yep, you're billions walk down and here's the 258 00:16:12,676 --> 00:16:32,836 Speaker 1: crowd again, sixteen thousand white people the vast majority of 259 00:16:32,876 --> 00:16:35,676 Speaker 1: them booing her. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean she ends 260 00:16:35,716 --> 00:16:39,356 Speaker 1: up winning in three sets, but afterwards crying for hours. Yeah, 261 00:16:39,396 --> 00:16:42,036 Speaker 1: I mean she's nineteen years old. I mean, you know, 262 00:16:42,356 --> 00:16:46,356 Speaker 1: not for nothing. The scene reminds me of that Ruby 263 00:16:46,396 --> 00:16:50,356 Speaker 1: Bridges moment where a six year old is integrating a 264 00:16:50,356 --> 00:16:54,036 Speaker 1: New Orleans schools, you know, surrounded by an angry mob 265 00:16:54,036 --> 00:16:57,316 Speaker 1: of white people escorted by US marshals. So this reminds 266 00:16:57,356 --> 00:17:00,356 Speaker 1: me of a piece that Claudia Rankin wrote about Serena Williams. 267 00:17:00,436 --> 00:17:03,756 Speaker 1: I recommend this book to everyone's citizens. It's a book 268 00:17:03,796 --> 00:17:07,516 Speaker 1: that's sort of both like poetry and lyric prose. And 269 00:17:07,836 --> 00:17:10,876 Speaker 1: one of the chapters is about Serena and it's about well, 270 00:17:10,916 --> 00:17:13,196 Speaker 1: let me just read Claudia Rankin's words, because they're better 271 00:17:13,196 --> 00:17:16,436 Speaker 1: than mine. She says, what does a victorious or defeated 272 00:17:16,516 --> 00:17:19,796 Speaker 1: black woman's body and a historically white space looked like? 273 00:17:20,476 --> 00:17:23,036 Speaker 1: Serena and her big sister Venus Williams brought to mind 274 00:17:23,116 --> 00:17:26,716 Speaker 1: Zora Neil Hurston's I feel most colored when I am 275 00:17:26,756 --> 00:17:31,276 Speaker 1: thrown against a sharp white background. Yeah, and what's so 276 00:17:31,436 --> 00:17:34,636 Speaker 1: powerful in thinking about Serena Williams is she basically is 277 00:17:34,676 --> 00:17:40,076 Speaker 1: like her body contains the weight of history, and so 278 00:17:40,236 --> 00:17:43,876 Speaker 1: when she shows up in multiple tournaments where she just 279 00:17:43,916 --> 00:17:46,756 Speaker 1: gets cheated call after call, like the two thousand and 280 00:17:46,756 --> 00:17:51,836 Speaker 1: four Years Open against Jennifer Capriati, her body contains the 281 00:17:51,996 --> 00:17:57,316 Speaker 1: multitudes of the racism that has been thrown at black people. Yeah. 282 00:17:57,316 --> 00:17:59,716 Speaker 1: So you mentioned the match that Serena had in two 283 00:17:59,756 --> 00:18:02,476 Speaker 1: thousand and four at the US Open against Jennifer Caprioti, 284 00:18:02,556 --> 00:18:06,076 Speaker 1: who is another American, white white girl. She was also 285 00:18:06,116 --> 00:18:09,556 Speaker 1: a girl at that time. And it's actually, if if 286 00:18:09,556 --> 00:18:13,156 Speaker 1: you can, anyone should YouTube this. It's crazy to watch. Uh, 287 00:18:13,476 --> 00:18:16,196 Speaker 1: Serena is hitting shot after shot that are clearly in 288 00:18:16,236 --> 00:18:18,836 Speaker 1: and they're being called out. Now why are they being 289 00:18:18,836 --> 00:18:20,956 Speaker 1: called out? Is it just a bad lines judge? Is 290 00:18:20,956 --> 00:18:25,356 Speaker 1: the line judge unconsciously racist? Since yeah, you know this here, 291 00:18:25,636 --> 00:18:30,076 Speaker 1: you know unconscious bias? Is she actually like racist Serena? 292 00:18:30,476 --> 00:18:33,316 Speaker 1: That means not unconscious bias, that's like some form of 293 00:18:33,516 --> 00:18:35,956 Speaker 1: visual impairment. Yeah, so you don't you don't know what's 294 00:18:35,956 --> 00:18:45,996 Speaker 1: going on, and it's it's crazy to watch. Okay, that 295 00:18:46,076 --> 00:18:50,756 Speaker 1: ball was out. What what Serena is gonna come right 296 00:18:50,796 --> 00:18:52,916 Speaker 1: over to talk to the chair that was way in 297 00:18:53,316 --> 00:19:02,636 Speaker 1: John way In I always defer to you, No, it 298 00:19:02,836 --> 00:19:09,476 Speaker 1: was not. This is crazy, not even I mean, that's 299 00:19:09,476 --> 00:19:15,756 Speaker 1: not even close. Khalil. Even hearing that again, my blood 300 00:19:15,756 --> 00:19:19,836 Speaker 1: starts to boil. I mean, Serena ends up losing this match, 301 00:19:20,036 --> 00:19:23,156 Speaker 1: and in a way, the match is taken from her stolen, 302 00:19:23,676 --> 00:19:28,036 Speaker 1: straight straight stolen, and not just winning the match. It's 303 00:19:28,076 --> 00:19:32,436 Speaker 1: actually the thing that makes them put in electronic line calling. 304 00:19:32,836 --> 00:19:35,276 Speaker 1: It's like they have to it has to solve for 305 00:19:35,476 --> 00:19:39,156 Speaker 1: maybe racism. You don't have to solve for bias. You know, 306 00:19:39,876 --> 00:19:43,076 Speaker 1: it's like having the court system, you know, like we 307 00:19:43,116 --> 00:19:47,356 Speaker 1: can't trust human beings because they have implicit bias. That's right. 308 00:19:47,396 --> 00:19:48,796 Speaker 1: And I know this is a little this is a 309 00:19:48,796 --> 00:19:52,996 Speaker 1: little far afield, But in the case of the criminal 310 00:19:53,036 --> 00:19:57,276 Speaker 1: justice system so consistently railroading black people in the early 311 00:19:57,276 --> 00:20:02,036 Speaker 1: twentieth century, we got such things as indigent defense because 312 00:20:02,156 --> 00:20:04,996 Speaker 1: poor black people didn't have legal representation. So this, just 313 00:20:05,036 --> 00:20:09,276 Speaker 1: to me is yet another instance where racism has it's 314 00:20:09,356 --> 00:20:12,356 Speaker 1: such a potent force on society, even in sports, where 315 00:20:12,676 --> 00:20:15,436 Speaker 1: structural changes have had to be made to accommodate or 316 00:20:15,516 --> 00:20:18,436 Speaker 1: to deal with it. The USAA later apologized for the 317 00:20:18,476 --> 00:20:21,676 Speaker 1: line calling in this match and as well they should have. Yeah, 318 00:20:21,676 --> 00:20:23,796 Speaker 1: they should have, and they pulled the umpire from the tournament. 319 00:20:24,636 --> 00:20:26,556 Speaker 1: But you know the damage is done, right, I mean, 320 00:20:26,596 --> 00:20:30,356 Speaker 1: think about the psychological toll on Serena Williams and really 321 00:20:30,916 --> 00:20:33,836 Speaker 1: on any black woman who's watching the match. You know, 322 00:20:33,876 --> 00:20:36,476 Speaker 1: it's that idea of not being sure of what's going on. 323 00:20:36,556 --> 00:20:38,956 Speaker 1: It's like it is actually makes you a little bit crazy. 324 00:20:38,996 --> 00:20:42,556 Speaker 1: It makes you insane. Yeah, and psychologically what that is 325 00:20:42,596 --> 00:20:45,476 Speaker 1: like to be As as Katrina Adams said, the only 326 00:20:45,476 --> 00:20:49,116 Speaker 1: one like to sort of think at every moment is 327 00:20:49,116 --> 00:20:51,676 Speaker 1: this racism? Or is that me just thinking it's racism 328 00:20:52,036 --> 00:20:55,876 Speaker 1: and and not being sure? And and then when you 329 00:20:55,996 --> 00:20:59,036 Speaker 1: respond to it, when you finally explode with with frustration 330 00:20:59,156 --> 00:21:02,676 Speaker 1: or rage that you're labeled even more outside it. Oh, 331 00:21:02,716 --> 00:21:05,756 Speaker 1: look at that. Look at that black woman's rage. You 332 00:21:05,756 --> 00:21:08,476 Speaker 1: know that this sort of like stereotype that you're fulfilling. 333 00:21:09,356 --> 00:21:12,556 Speaker 1: Me in two thousand and nine, when there's a foot fall, 334 00:21:12,676 --> 00:21:15,836 Speaker 1: call that everybody watching this is like what you just 335 00:21:15,956 --> 00:21:18,916 Speaker 1: called a football who calls footballs at a crucial moment, 336 00:21:19,036 --> 00:21:21,636 Speaker 1: Hey clear, let me just quickly define what a football is. 337 00:21:21,836 --> 00:21:24,116 Speaker 1: A football is when you're serving and you step into 338 00:21:24,196 --> 00:21:27,196 Speaker 1: the court across the baseline, so that white line on 339 00:21:27,236 --> 00:21:28,956 Speaker 1: the on the baseline you can't step on it when 340 00:21:28,996 --> 00:21:31,316 Speaker 1: you serve. And John McEnroe is watching and he says 341 00:21:31,356 --> 00:21:34,796 Speaker 1: there was no footfall, that's right. And she literally turns 342 00:21:34,836 --> 00:21:36,916 Speaker 1: to the line judge who makes a call and says 343 00:21:36,956 --> 00:21:39,356 Speaker 1: something like, I'm going to take this ball and stuff 344 00:21:39,356 --> 00:21:44,276 Speaker 1: it down your fucking throat. Yep, ye like that. That 345 00:21:45,276 --> 00:21:48,516 Speaker 1: of course right. If you hate Serena Williams, or you've 346 00:21:48,516 --> 00:21:51,316 Speaker 1: got some issues with black black people in their performance 347 00:21:51,356 --> 00:21:53,836 Speaker 1: of whether they're respectable or not, this is another strike 348 00:21:53,876 --> 00:21:56,516 Speaker 1: against her, but it's also a powerful moment where her 349 00:21:56,596 --> 00:21:59,956 Speaker 1: where she reclaims her voice and that matters. Yeah, this 350 00:22:00,036 --> 00:22:04,156 Speaker 1: is the hypocrisy of racism. Like you have to overcome 351 00:22:04,556 --> 00:22:07,796 Speaker 1: all the barriers to participate in the first place. You 352 00:22:07,876 --> 00:22:09,996 Speaker 1: then have to prove that you can compete at the 353 00:22:10,036 --> 00:22:12,916 Speaker 1: highest level despite the fact that you've been handicapped with 354 00:22:12,956 --> 00:22:16,476 Speaker 1: all kinds of disadvantages that we've already talked about. And 355 00:22:16,516 --> 00:22:20,476 Speaker 1: then when you are subject to micro and macro aggressions 356 00:22:20,596 --> 00:22:22,756 Speaker 1: wherever they're coming from, and often in the case of 357 00:22:22,756 --> 00:22:27,076 Speaker 1: Serena Williams's career, both people in the stands and line judges. 358 00:22:27,716 --> 00:22:33,036 Speaker 1: Then you have to somehow muster some source of respectability, 359 00:22:33,516 --> 00:22:38,036 Speaker 1: like some kind of cryptonite that you apply to yourself 360 00:22:38,476 --> 00:22:42,676 Speaker 1: so that you can't explode with rage. But again, what 361 00:22:42,716 --> 00:22:45,396 Speaker 1: that means is you can't actually fully be human. Yeah, 362 00:22:45,596 --> 00:22:50,436 Speaker 1: because any human being facing those circumstances not only would explode, 363 00:22:50,596 --> 00:22:53,956 Speaker 1: but should explode, because to internalize that is a form 364 00:22:53,956 --> 00:22:58,796 Speaker 1: of self death. When we come back, we're going to 365 00:22:58,836 --> 00:23:02,196 Speaker 1: talk about Naomi Osaka, this amazing tennis player. She is 366 00:23:02,196 --> 00:23:04,516 Speaker 1: part of the future of tennis. Are things going to 367 00:23:04,596 --> 00:23:06,196 Speaker 1: be different for her than they were for all the 368 00:23:06,236 --> 00:23:21,396 Speaker 1: women who came before her? We've been talking about the 369 00:23:21,436 --> 00:23:24,676 Speaker 1: Williams sisters, but let's talk about a woman that's been 370 00:23:24,676 --> 00:23:28,236 Speaker 1: on the other side of the net from them. Naomi Osaka. Okay, 371 00:23:28,636 --> 00:23:30,876 Speaker 1: she wins her first Grand Slam at the US Open 372 00:23:30,916 --> 00:23:34,676 Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen, beating her hero, Serena Williams. You know, 373 00:23:34,756 --> 00:23:37,676 Speaker 1: Serena is one of the reasons that she started playing 374 00:23:37,676 --> 00:23:42,396 Speaker 1: tennis in the first place. Naomi Osaka, um, She's Haitian. 375 00:23:42,676 --> 00:23:45,796 Speaker 1: She has a Haitian father and a Japanese mother. She 376 00:23:45,836 --> 00:23:49,396 Speaker 1: grew up in America, but officially she plays for Japan, right, 377 00:23:49,476 --> 00:23:51,796 Speaker 1: and she was born in Japan, but they moved to 378 00:23:51,836 --> 00:23:55,036 Speaker 1: Long Island near Jamaica Queen and that's where she grew 379 00:23:55,116 --> 00:23:57,676 Speaker 1: up playing at a young age. Naomi Asaka is just 380 00:23:57,716 --> 00:24:02,356 Speaker 1: like an amazing player. She's incredible. You know, her steely nerves, 381 00:24:02,436 --> 00:24:05,036 Speaker 1: you know this sort of like quietness, but like this 382 00:24:05,036 --> 00:24:07,836 Speaker 1: this power and force on the court. She's the first 383 00:24:08,036 --> 00:24:11,276 Speaker 1: Asian player or ever man or woman to be number 384 00:24:11,276 --> 00:24:13,756 Speaker 1: one in the world in tennis. She's won four Grand 385 00:24:13,796 --> 00:24:16,196 Speaker 1: Slam tournaments at a really young age. But one of 386 00:24:16,236 --> 00:24:19,396 Speaker 1: the things that I think is really important about Naomi 387 00:24:19,476 --> 00:24:22,796 Speaker 1: Yasaka at this moment is she's doing something different. She's 388 00:24:23,156 --> 00:24:25,516 Speaker 1: finding a way to find the balance between being this 389 00:24:25,716 --> 00:24:29,116 Speaker 1: outstanding player and recognizing that this historically white space is 390 00:24:29,156 --> 00:24:34,236 Speaker 1: still challenging and it is suffocating in a way. And 391 00:24:34,596 --> 00:24:36,356 Speaker 1: just this past August, in a warm up of the 392 00:24:36,436 --> 00:24:38,636 Speaker 1: US Open, she's in a press conference. Yeah, so this 393 00:24:38,876 --> 00:24:42,156 Speaker 1: is this is a tournament in the United States in 394 00:24:42,196 --> 00:24:44,716 Speaker 1: August and a lead up to this year's US Open. 395 00:24:45,356 --> 00:24:48,916 Speaker 1: And after this Matt she says she needs to take 396 00:24:48,956 --> 00:24:52,596 Speaker 1: a break from tennis. I'm not really sure why, Like 397 00:24:52,796 --> 00:24:57,156 Speaker 1: I felt like I was pretty I was telling myself 398 00:24:57,196 --> 00:24:59,876 Speaker 1: to be calm, but I feel like maybe there was 399 00:24:59,916 --> 00:25:03,556 Speaker 1: a boiling point. Like normally I feel like I like challenges, 400 00:25:03,956 --> 00:25:09,756 Speaker 1: but recently I feel very anxious. One things don't go 401 00:25:09,916 --> 00:25:12,996 Speaker 1: my way, And she's asked about her tennis, but she's 402 00:25:13,036 --> 00:25:15,996 Speaker 1: also asked about an earthquake in Haiti, where her father's from. 403 00:25:16,316 --> 00:25:19,116 Speaker 1: And the second one is just related to your tweet 404 00:25:19,156 --> 00:25:24,436 Speaker 1: over the weekend, related to what's going on in Haiti. Um, sorry, no, 405 00:25:24,636 --> 00:25:36,596 Speaker 1: you're super good. And you know it follows. It follows 406 00:25:36,636 --> 00:25:40,756 Speaker 1: the Olympics with Simone Biles, the gymnast also stepping away, 407 00:25:41,276 --> 00:25:47,316 Speaker 1: and you feel, you feel the unique pressures on young athletes, 408 00:25:47,516 --> 00:25:51,356 Speaker 1: young women, and young women of color that she talks 409 00:25:51,356 --> 00:25:55,956 Speaker 1: about it there of you know, being representative of and 410 00:25:55,996 --> 00:25:58,996 Speaker 1: for her it's like it's not just her that she's 411 00:25:59,076 --> 00:26:02,436 Speaker 1: black and Asian, it's also dealing with tennis, which is like, 412 00:26:02,796 --> 00:26:06,876 Speaker 1: has these unique challenges on you psychologically. It is a rigorous, 413 00:26:06,956 --> 00:26:10,916 Speaker 1: rigorous mental and physical sport. Yeah yeah, no, it's uh. 414 00:26:12,236 --> 00:26:17,836 Speaker 1: I think so powerfully illustrates the limitations of being the 415 00:26:17,916 --> 00:26:23,476 Speaker 1: only one in these environments where people for all sorts 416 00:26:23,476 --> 00:26:29,476 Speaker 1: of reasons can't see your full humanity and bring to 417 00:26:29,636 --> 00:26:34,436 Speaker 1: bear issues onto you, project their own shit onto you 418 00:26:35,476 --> 00:26:40,476 Speaker 1: in ways that only illustrate how much more needs to 419 00:26:40,556 --> 00:26:44,036 Speaker 1: change in professional sports, and to just to put things 420 00:26:44,036 --> 00:26:47,436 Speaker 1: in context. In the summer of George Floyd in twenty twenty, 421 00:26:48,596 --> 00:26:54,996 Speaker 1: Osaka went to Minneapolis to bear witness to the protests there. 422 00:26:55,116 --> 00:26:58,596 Speaker 1: She decided that, as she posted on Twitter, She's like 423 00:26:58,596 --> 00:27:00,836 Speaker 1: before I'm an athlete, I'm a black woman, and as 424 00:27:00,836 --> 00:27:03,156 Speaker 1: a black woman, I feel as though these these things 425 00:27:03,196 --> 00:27:06,076 Speaker 1: matter and they they are more important and require my 426 00:27:06,116 --> 00:27:13,076 Speaker 1: attention than tennis. She actually contributes to disrupting a tournament, 427 00:27:13,476 --> 00:27:15,836 Speaker 1: the Western and Southern Open, in the wake of another 428 00:27:15,836 --> 00:27:19,196 Speaker 1: shooting of Jacob Blake. Um in that tournament was he 429 00:27:19,236 --> 00:27:22,716 Speaker 1: had been shot in Kenosha, Wisconsin, and she says she 430 00:27:22,756 --> 00:27:24,756 Speaker 1: won't play, and then the tournament says, you know you're right, 431 00:27:24,796 --> 00:27:27,196 Speaker 1: will actually take a pause, Yeah, which is like, think 432 00:27:27,196 --> 00:27:30,076 Speaker 1: of how radically that you know, the tennis responding to 433 00:27:30,076 --> 00:27:32,516 Speaker 1: her differently than they were, say, the william sisters. You know, 434 00:27:32,556 --> 00:27:35,436 Speaker 1: in a way, I mean to put this in a 435 00:27:35,516 --> 00:27:38,316 Speaker 1: kind of frame that I think is really powerful. Um, 436 00:27:38,916 --> 00:27:41,516 Speaker 1: you know this is totally ironic because we started talking 437 00:27:41,556 --> 00:27:44,636 Speaker 1: about people like THEA Gibson and Arthur Ashe I mean, 438 00:27:44,676 --> 00:27:49,516 Speaker 1: who were literally fighting against Jim Crow America, like formal segregation. 439 00:27:50,076 --> 00:27:53,596 Speaker 1: And yet if there's a if there's a strange kind 440 00:27:53,636 --> 00:27:57,556 Speaker 1: of period of our childhood, which we get to the 441 00:27:57,596 --> 00:28:00,556 Speaker 1: william sisters, here we are again, and Osaka's like, hold up, 442 00:28:00,836 --> 00:28:04,236 Speaker 1: wait a minute. And for her, she's like, no, no, no, no, 443 00:28:04,236 --> 00:28:07,396 Speaker 1: no no. I can't play in a sport and pretend 444 00:28:07,436 --> 00:28:10,356 Speaker 1: as if black people aren't dying at the hands of 445 00:28:10,356 --> 00:28:14,876 Speaker 1: the state. And so she starts wearing masks after she's 446 00:28:14,876 --> 00:28:20,916 Speaker 1: in Minneapolis, and she's literally presenting herself in tournaments with 447 00:28:21,076 --> 00:28:26,916 Speaker 1: COVID masks with the names of people Brianna Taylor, Sandra Bland, 448 00:28:27,276 --> 00:28:32,036 Speaker 1: Jacob Blake, George Floyd and for her and how powerful 449 00:28:32,076 --> 00:28:34,876 Speaker 1: for a tennis audience to see that, right, So then 450 00:28:34,916 --> 00:28:37,516 Speaker 1: send the announcers and the fans have to all respond 451 00:28:37,556 --> 00:28:40,996 Speaker 1: to that they are literally saying those names. That's right. 452 00:28:41,276 --> 00:28:45,676 Speaker 1: She forces folks to say their names, either because they 453 00:28:45,716 --> 00:28:48,436 Speaker 1: read it in their minds or because it becomes part 454 00:28:48,476 --> 00:28:51,396 Speaker 1: of a conversation in the midst of the interviews. And 455 00:28:51,916 --> 00:28:53,996 Speaker 1: I think her stepping away from the sport and saying 456 00:28:54,036 --> 00:28:55,996 Speaker 1: I need to deal with my mental health is also 457 00:28:56,156 --> 00:28:58,436 Speaker 1: a form of empowerment. Yeah, you know, here she is 458 00:28:58,436 --> 00:29:01,196 Speaker 1: in this press conference saying, I'm trying to figure out 459 00:29:01,196 --> 00:29:04,396 Speaker 1: this balance of being a representative figure and having all 460 00:29:04,396 --> 00:29:06,836 Speaker 1: that weight and trying to play tennis at the same time, 461 00:29:07,196 --> 00:29:09,956 Speaker 1: and I haven't figured it out. And the kind of 462 00:29:09,996 --> 00:29:13,556 Speaker 1: way that we talked about a driving Serena mad crazy 463 00:29:13,596 --> 00:29:16,996 Speaker 1: at times She's like, man, you know, I gotta I 464 00:29:17,036 --> 00:29:19,516 Speaker 1: gotta like take a break and try to figure it out. 465 00:29:37,596 --> 00:29:39,996 Speaker 1: So let's talk about this year's US Open. I mean, 466 00:29:40,436 --> 00:29:43,636 Speaker 1: really incredible for so many reasons. Yes, yes, it's time. 467 00:29:43,796 --> 00:29:49,116 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the finals match. So so, Mma Radakanu 468 00:29:49,636 --> 00:29:52,356 Speaker 1: is a British eighteen year old. Her parents and Romanian 469 00:29:52,356 --> 00:29:56,596 Speaker 1: and Chinese. She ultimately wins this this US Open, this 470 00:29:56,676 --> 00:29:59,556 Speaker 1: year's US Open final. She is this year's Grand Slam winner. 471 00:29:59,596 --> 00:30:03,876 Speaker 1: Her opponent is Leila Annie Fernandez, a Canadian nineteen year 472 00:30:03,916 --> 00:30:07,276 Speaker 1: old whose parents are Filipino and Ecuadorian, and she was 473 00:30:07,316 --> 00:30:10,276 Speaker 1: seated seventy fifth in the tournament. Just, I mean, just 474 00:30:10,596 --> 00:30:14,236 Speaker 1: wow in every possible sense, including the sense of like 475 00:30:14,436 --> 00:30:18,236 Speaker 1: seeing them, these two women of color. It feels like, 476 00:30:18,676 --> 00:30:21,116 Speaker 1: you know, this is the genesis of all the things 477 00:30:21,156 --> 00:30:23,996 Speaker 1: we've been talking about, you know, to see these teenagers 478 00:30:24,316 --> 00:30:28,196 Speaker 1: on the center stage, here's what diversity has has wrought. 479 00:30:28,436 --> 00:30:31,116 Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, Katrina Adams actually talked about all the 480 00:30:31,156 --> 00:30:34,476 Speaker 1: women of color who played the game and how they 481 00:30:34,556 --> 00:30:37,796 Speaker 1: created this moment in a way for Fernandez and Radakanu. Yeah, 482 00:30:37,836 --> 00:30:39,396 Speaker 1: that's right. I mean that makes me think of my 483 00:30:39,396 --> 00:30:42,636 Speaker 1: own studies on how do you achieve racial equity, whether 484 00:30:42,676 --> 00:30:46,596 Speaker 1: it's sports or companies or any organization. Yeah, so what 485 00:30:46,676 --> 00:30:49,396 Speaker 1: does the USTA still need to do for women's tennis 486 00:30:49,676 --> 00:30:52,516 Speaker 1: to be even more diverse and inclusive? Oh? Man, that 487 00:30:52,516 --> 00:30:55,836 Speaker 1: that is such a such the right question to ask. Yes, 488 00:30:55,956 --> 00:30:59,996 Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. Because because I've 489 00:30:59,996 --> 00:31:02,876 Speaker 1: been thinking about this for a long time, I've been 490 00:31:02,876 --> 00:31:05,036 Speaker 1: writing about this, I've been doing this work. I run 491 00:31:05,076 --> 00:31:09,236 Speaker 1: this this UH research project at Harvard that is all 492 00:31:09,116 --> 00:31:12,996 Speaker 1: about how do we build infrastructure, how do we move 493 00:31:13,116 --> 00:31:17,476 Speaker 1: from black first and seconds and Latinos first and seconds 494 00:31:17,516 --> 00:31:21,716 Speaker 1: and in this case Asian American and multiracial first and 495 00:31:21,756 --> 00:31:28,996 Speaker 1: seconds to having a sustainable culture and institutional policies and 496 00:31:29,036 --> 00:31:34,036 Speaker 1: practices that don't lead to repeating the same histories that 497 00:31:34,076 --> 00:31:37,996 Speaker 1: we've just talked about, the histories of segregation, racist umpiring, 498 00:31:38,316 --> 00:31:41,916 Speaker 1: and increased media scrutiny around black women athletes. And in fact, 499 00:31:42,036 --> 00:31:44,476 Speaker 1: that's what you've been reporting on. You've been writing about this, 500 00:31:44,756 --> 00:31:49,596 Speaker 1: You've been up close and personal with people building tennis 501 00:31:49,676 --> 00:31:53,116 Speaker 1: infrastructure and in Chicago in particular. Yeah, one of the 502 00:31:53,156 --> 00:31:55,476 Speaker 1: things that the USDA has been doing is they don't 503 00:31:55,516 --> 00:31:58,676 Speaker 1: just work from the top down with amazing athletes like 504 00:31:58,716 --> 00:32:02,796 Speaker 1: Serena and Venus and Naomi Osaka, these representative figures. They 505 00:32:02,836 --> 00:32:05,236 Speaker 1: also work from the ground up. They have this program 506 00:32:05,276 --> 00:32:08,596 Speaker 1: called the National Junior Tennis and Learning Program, which has 507 00:32:08,636 --> 00:32:12,316 Speaker 1: this mode of getting more rackets in people's hands. They're 508 00:32:12,476 --> 00:32:16,076 Speaker 1: they're extending who gets to play tennis, right, kind of 509 00:32:16,076 --> 00:32:17,796 Speaker 1: like my mama put a racket in my hand at 510 00:32:17,796 --> 00:32:20,516 Speaker 1: the young age. Yeah, a new tennis facility has opened 511 00:32:20,596 --> 00:32:23,156 Speaker 1: up in our old neighborhood. So the forty seven Street 512 00:32:23,156 --> 00:32:26,036 Speaker 1: Club is now closed down and a guy named Kamal 513 00:32:26,116 --> 00:32:29,436 Speaker 1: Murray has opened up the Excess Tennis and Education Foundation 514 00:32:29,836 --> 00:32:32,956 Speaker 1: and it is this like giant facility on the old 515 00:32:33,036 --> 00:32:36,036 Speaker 1: grounds of the Robert Taylor Homes, which is twenty seven 516 00:32:36,076 --> 00:32:39,236 Speaker 1: courts right, which ye, twenty seven courts. Robert Taylor was 517 00:32:39,276 --> 00:32:41,676 Speaker 1: the largest public housing complex in the world, and so 518 00:32:41,676 --> 00:32:43,836 Speaker 1: it was torn down and here in its place on 519 00:32:43,876 --> 00:32:46,596 Speaker 1: the south side of Chicago is this tennis village. And 520 00:32:46,756 --> 00:32:50,676 Speaker 1: with the with the purpose of you know, there's more accessibility. Uh, 521 00:32:50,876 --> 00:32:56,316 Speaker 1: it's local and not just not just in a recreational sense. 522 00:32:56,796 --> 00:33:00,316 Speaker 1: Also that there are high level tournaments there. So rather 523 00:33:00,916 --> 00:33:03,796 Speaker 1: rather than having to travel far away to see whether 524 00:33:03,836 --> 00:33:06,836 Speaker 1: you're any good or the suburbs, that you can actually 525 00:33:06,876 --> 00:33:09,476 Speaker 1: find out early whether you know, this is a which 526 00:33:09,516 --> 00:33:11,516 Speaker 1: you might not just enjoy, but you might you know, 527 00:33:11,556 --> 00:33:14,356 Speaker 1: maybe play in college and get a scholarship and maybe 528 00:33:14,396 --> 00:33:17,556 Speaker 1: even if you're good enough, be a professional player. That's right, 529 00:33:17,836 --> 00:33:21,636 Speaker 1: The institutions are now facing the change that is required 530 00:33:21,676 --> 00:33:24,596 Speaker 1: to sustain this momentum. And what does that change mean 531 00:33:24,636 --> 00:33:27,396 Speaker 1: for what does the purposes? Yeah, what that means is 532 00:33:27,436 --> 00:33:32,356 Speaker 1: that I envision for XS on the grounds of the 533 00:33:32,436 --> 00:33:36,596 Speaker 1: former Robert Taylor Holmes White elite and European players coming 534 00:33:36,636 --> 00:33:39,676 Speaker 1: there as part of the tour that establishes the best 535 00:33:39,676 --> 00:33:42,476 Speaker 1: of the best. And why so that that's interesting because 536 00:33:42,596 --> 00:33:44,756 Speaker 1: I did see a tournament there this summer. And why 537 00:33:44,796 --> 00:33:46,556 Speaker 1: do you think, why do you think that would make 538 00:33:46,556 --> 00:33:50,396 Speaker 1: a difference. That makes a difference because it fundamentally challenges 539 00:33:50,436 --> 00:33:56,756 Speaker 1: assumptions and it redistributes power. It literally gives those players 540 00:33:56,756 --> 00:33:59,196 Speaker 1: from the South and West sides of Chicago, or even 541 00:33:59,236 --> 00:34:01,036 Speaker 1: if they're black, coming from the suburbs, or even if 542 00:34:01,076 --> 00:34:04,156 Speaker 1: they're Latino agent coming to play at excess from around 543 00:34:04,156 --> 00:34:07,956 Speaker 1: the city, that's their home court, that's their community and 544 00:34:08,076 --> 00:34:10,436 Speaker 1: everything we've talked about where you had to leave your 545 00:34:10,476 --> 00:34:14,716 Speaker 1: community in order to prove yourself. Now, non black players, 546 00:34:14,916 --> 00:34:18,116 Speaker 1: white players, international players may one day be coming to 547 00:34:18,156 --> 00:34:20,236 Speaker 1: the former grounds of Robert Taylor home. They will be 548 00:34:20,276 --> 00:34:24,436 Speaker 1: coming to South Chicago home of the Blues. Brother like that. 549 00:34:24,436 --> 00:34:28,316 Speaker 1: That is really powerful because because that is Yeah, I'm 550 00:34:28,356 --> 00:34:33,796 Speaker 1: worked up, because that is what redistributing power means. Wow, Khalil, 551 00:34:33,876 --> 00:34:36,636 Speaker 1: you really uh, you really got revved up on here. 552 00:34:36,676 --> 00:34:38,676 Speaker 1: I love this. This is this is how tennis affects you. 553 00:34:38,716 --> 00:34:40,716 Speaker 1: This is why I was hitting overhead back to back 554 00:34:40,756 --> 00:34:44,236 Speaker 1: to back, overhead, Sam Rowling rowling cross court. And why 555 00:34:44,316 --> 00:34:48,116 Speaker 1: this is so powerful for me as a model for change, 556 00:34:48,236 --> 00:34:50,636 Speaker 1: because you know, if we could think of the Williams 557 00:34:50,636 --> 00:34:54,556 Speaker 1: Sisters as the kind of culmination of a of an 558 00:34:54,716 --> 00:34:58,356 Speaker 1: entire epic of the last fifty years. Naomi is already 559 00:34:58,356 --> 00:35:02,036 Speaker 1: a bellweather of change. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. I'm riding. 560 00:35:02,036 --> 00:35:05,116 Speaker 1: I'm riding with you. Yeah, And I'm riding with you always, 561 00:35:05,236 --> 00:35:07,436 Speaker 1: all right, all right right? Love you, man, I love 562 00:35:07,476 --> 00:35:11,916 Speaker 1: you too. Some of My Best Friends Are is a 563 00:35:11,956 --> 00:35:15,316 Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted 564 00:35:15,356 --> 00:35:18,516 Speaker 1: by me Khalil, Gibron Mohammed and my best tennis buddy 565 00:35:18,796 --> 00:35:22,476 Speaker 1: Ben Austin. It's produced by Sheriff Vincent ken Wood and 566 00:35:22,756 --> 00:35:28,396 Speaker 1: edited by Karen Shakerji. Our engineer is Martin Gonzalez. Our 567 00:35:28,436 --> 00:35:34,316 Speaker 1: associate editor is Keishell Williams, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. 568 00:35:34,716 --> 00:35:38,476 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Lee Tall Mulad and Neil LaBelle. 569 00:35:38,876 --> 00:35:43,556 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Katrina Adams and Khalil's mom Shorty Russ 570 00:35:43,636 --> 00:35:47,716 Speaker 1: Right Boy Levin Don't take no stuff at Pushkin thanks 571 00:35:47,716 --> 00:35:52,476 Speaker 1: to Heather Famee, Carly Migliori, John Schnars, and Jacob Weisberg. 572 00:35:52,916 --> 00:35:57,836 Speaker 1: Our theme song, Little Lily, is by fellow chicagoan Avery R. 573 00:35:57,956 --> 00:36:02,236 Speaker 1: Young from his amazing album Tubman. You Will definitely want 574 00:36:02,236 --> 00:36:04,476 Speaker 1: to check out more of his music at his website, 575 00:36:04,836 --> 00:36:08,796 Speaker 1: Avery Ryung dot com. You can find Pushkin on all 576 00:36:08,836 --> 00:36:11,916 Speaker 1: social platforms at Pushkin pods, and you can sign up 577 00:36:11,956 --> 00:36:15,156 Speaker 1: for our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. To find more 578 00:36:15,236 --> 00:36:20,476 Speaker 1: Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 579 00:36:20,516 --> 00:36:23,556 Speaker 1: wherever you like to listen. If you love this show 580 00:36:23,956 --> 00:36:27,156 Speaker 1: and we hope you do and others from Pushkin Industries, 581 00:36:27,796 --> 00:36:32,476 Speaker 1: consider becoming a Pushnick. Pushnick is a podcast subscription that 582 00:36:32,556 --> 00:36:36,436 Speaker 1: offers bonus content and uninterrupted listening for four dollars and 583 00:36:36,556 --> 00:36:39,796 Speaker 1: ninety nine cents a month. Look for Pushnik exclusively on 584 00:36:39,876 --> 00:37:01,996 Speaker 1: Apple podcast subscriptions only. When's the first time you ever 585 00:37:02,076 --> 00:37:05,636 Speaker 1: saw someone play lacrosse? I still haven't watched anyone play lacrosse. 586 00:37:05,676 --> 00:37:08,036 Speaker 1: You've never seen it before. You've never seen I. I 587 00:37:08,116 --> 00:37:10,476 Speaker 1: see I see in the neaters with these nets in 588 00:37:10,516 --> 00:37:14,556 Speaker 1: their yards, but you've never actually, I've never gone to 589 00:37:14,636 --> 00:37:15,476 Speaker 1: a lacrosse game.