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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney, alongside

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Speaker 1: my co host Matt Miller. Every business day we bring

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Speaker 1: you interviews from CEOs, market pros, and Bloomberg experts, along

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Speaker 1: with essential market moving news. Find the Bloomberg Markets Podcast

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Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, and

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Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I want to get

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Speaker 1: to our next guest here, Jess Larson, CEO and founder

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Speaker 1: of Briarcliff Credit Partners. Jess, thanks so much for joining

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Speaker 1: us here. You know, I want to get you know,

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Speaker 1: your view of the private credit business. Give us a

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Speaker 1: sense that like how big private credit is? Is it growing?

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Speaker 1: How is it used within the compital markets? Thank you well.

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Speaker 1: First of all, thank you very much for for having

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Speaker 1: me on and write A credit is already sitting at

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Speaker 1: one point to trillion dollars, so it is. It has

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Speaker 1: really matured and grown since kind of Dart Frank intermediated

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Speaker 1: the banks. So it's been sprinting and growing since two

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Speaker 1: thousand and ten. Now what's really interesting here is that sprinting,

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Speaker 1: that growth is not it is not slowing down by

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Speaker 1: any in any way. So what we anticipate is by

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Speaker 1: so only a few years, two years out it will

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Speaker 1: be at two point seven trillion dollar asset class. So

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Speaker 1: growth is there, it's here to stay. How do I

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Speaker 1: get a piece of that? Because I hear I'm looking

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Speaker 1: at the ten year trading at two point four That

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Speaker 1: doesn't do it for me. I need more yield. I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking about private credit. How do I get exposure? How

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Speaker 1: does the average investor get exposure to the private credit market? Well,

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Speaker 1: depending on whether we talk about the average average consumer

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Speaker 1: or the average institutions, right, But that is exactly you're

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Speaker 1: starting on the on the perfect point here, right is

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Speaker 1: your fixed income is really becoming a no income, and

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Speaker 1: so what you want to do is you want to

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Speaker 1: rotate some of that into your private creditor and in

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Speaker 1: many cases, what's the diary lending asset class? So what

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Speaker 1: that is exactly why we're seeing private credit becoming increasingly popular,

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Speaker 1: right it is? It is for those reasons. Is there

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Speaker 1: a difference between what you're doing and direct lending? Private

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Speaker 1: credit um is a very broad kind of asset class

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Speaker 1: as sub part of that or sub strategy that is

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Speaker 1: direct lending, But there's so much more to private credits

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Speaker 1: than just doric lending, and that is exactly what we

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Speaker 1: do here at Briercliffe. We look at more n stack

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Speaker 1: to specific uncorelated strategies, that sits outside of direct lending,

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Speaker 1: offering other types of access and exposure to these institutions

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Speaker 1: and to you. But you gotta call me after this program.

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Speaker 1: So what kind of sectors are interesting to you guys

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Speaker 1: at Briarcliffe these days in terms of the credit outlook. Yes,

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Speaker 1: what we have seen over the last five six years

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Speaker 1: which has been really interesting within the private credit space,

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Speaker 1: we have seen direct lending really taken front and center.

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Speaker 1: Bearing in mind leading up to the g f C

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Speaker 1: it was really mess and distressed for control. That was

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Speaker 1: really what private credit was PRETFC, both CFC and dot frank.

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Speaker 1: It was all about drek lending because the banks simply

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Speaker 1: couldn't offer it. Darren that direk lending is a great

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Speaker 1: asset class, but as more capital comes into it, there

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Speaker 1: has been some compression returns US pension funds and a

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Speaker 1: lot of institutionals here in the US have an internal

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Speaker 1: performance hurdle of seven percent. And if your direct lending

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Speaker 1: is no longer meeting that, you really want to look

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Speaker 1: outside of direct lending. It could be sector specific, it

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Speaker 1: could be different kind of specialty lending. It could be

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Speaker 1: structured products, it could be all sorts of encore lated

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Speaker 1: strategies that kind of gives you more diversification and even

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Speaker 1: higher performance. And that's what we're looking for. Where I

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Speaker 1: guess there's probably no shortage of But where are you

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Speaker 1: getting the borrowers? Well, the borrowers said, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: the majority of our society, of the Georga or economy

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Speaker 1: are really private, privately owned companies. So there is really

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Speaker 1: no shortes of border borrows out there as long as

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Speaker 1: the banks are unable to really service these private companies.

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Speaker 1: So there are no shortage whether we find them in

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Speaker 1: the healthcare industry, the food sector, or even the sports

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Speaker 1: clubs or simply even the banks need help with their

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Speaker 1: revolver strategies. There are really no short as of boars

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Speaker 1: out there. But can you do it? I mean, is

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Speaker 1: it cheaper than a bank? I mean, sorry, an institution

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Speaker 1: going to a bank and selling a bond. Well, for

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Speaker 1: many companies like your restaurant chains, um, the banking finances

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Speaker 1: seem siming not available anymore. Right, And if you want

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Speaker 1: flexible capital and flexible financing. The banking route is simply

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Speaker 1: not possible anymore. So you really need to find different

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Speaker 1: ways of accessing the capital market. And that is why

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Speaker 1: the private credit is not so much about price, it's

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Speaker 1: more about the ability to really get access. Hey, Jess,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate that. Jess Larson,

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Speaker 1: CEO and founder of Briarcliff Credit Partners. This is the

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Speaker 1: Big Take, the best of Bloomberg's in depth original reporting

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Speaker 1: from around the globe. We're running on a financial system

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Speaker 1: that's running on old technology. We're seeing places reach fresh

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Speaker 1: recordize what unfolds in mid terms, we will no doubt

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Speaker 1: see again in the next presidential election. The Big Take

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Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio. All right, the Big Take story today

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Speaker 1: takes us to the main line of Philadelphia. We're talking Malvern, Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 1: and you can talk Malvern, you talk, uh, you know

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Speaker 1: about Vanguard. They have eight trillion dollars in assets under management.

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Speaker 1: Only black Rock manages more money. But there's change going

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Speaker 1: on at Vanguard. Let's get the latest on that story.

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Speaker 1: Any massive investing reporter for Bloomberg News joins us here

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Speaker 1: with the Big Take story. What's going on in malve In, Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 1: Any So, Vanguard, as you mentioned, is one of the

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Speaker 1: world's largest asset managers. It's the second largest in the

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Speaker 1: entire world with eight trillion in assets. And it built

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Speaker 1: it was it was founded by Jack Bogel on this

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Speaker 1: principle of low cost study as it goes investing. And

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Speaker 1: they've they've pivoted in some ways as the industry has

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Speaker 1: changed to keep up and to continue competing. So it's

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Speaker 1: really a very unique model in the industry. And it's

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Speaker 1: and they're starting to move into directions that are a

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Speaker 1: little bit different for a place like Vanguard. Uh, places

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Speaker 1: like private equity, for example, which uh steam counter at

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Speaker 1: least to some people to what Bogol's ethos was all about.

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Speaker 1: Gotta be counter to everyone about what Bogel. I mean. Imagine,

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Speaker 1: if you will, someone who changed Wall Street more than

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Speaker 1: anyone else and didn't end up a billionaire. Isn't that

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Speaker 1: the case with Jack Bogel exactly? Uh, Vogel did not

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Speaker 1: wind up a billionaire. He had I think about a

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Speaker 1: net worth of less than a hundred million dollars when

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Speaker 1: he died, and you compare that against you know, the

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Speaker 1: billionaires the billionaire Johnson family, for example, of Fidelity Fame

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Speaker 1: a direct competitor to Vanguard, So it's pretty extraordinary. He

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Speaker 1: found in the firm all on the idea of lowering

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Speaker 1: costs year after year for investors and really offering these

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Speaker 1: cheap funds, mostly index funds um and undercutting competitors on price.

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Speaker 1: What's changed in the industry is all the other competitors

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Speaker 1: like black Rock, Fidelity, Charles Schwab had basically no choice

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Speaker 1: but to follow Vanguard and cut their own fees on

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Speaker 1: a lot of funds to the bone as well. And

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Speaker 1: so what Vanguard is seeing now is that it kind

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Speaker 1: of has to move in a different direction if it

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Speaker 1: wants to keep accumulating assets because it's already so large.

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Speaker 1: So that helped precipitate some of the changes, but does

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Speaker 1: it annie. I mean, the point the reason Bogel died

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Speaker 1: with only a hundred million dollars roughly is that it

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Speaker 1: wasn't his endgame. He he wasn't trying to get mega

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Speaker 1: rich um. He didn't need to to win in Wall

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Speaker 1: Street terms. He was on a mission to help the

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Speaker 1: average investor. If that's what Vanguard wants to do, um,

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Speaker 1: do they think private equity products are going to help

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Speaker 1: the average investor perseasely. Well, they say that they can

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Speaker 1: undercut competitors on price, even for private equity. That we're

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Speaker 1: that kind of rarefied higher fee world. But you know,

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Speaker 1: it is different, it's a it's a it's a bit

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Speaker 1: of a shift for them. They're also focused a lot

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Speaker 1: on financial advice. And something that UM has has that

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Speaker 1: people have kind of observed is, oh, there are a

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Speaker 1: couple of funds now that are only for their advice customers. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, is could that be considered counter to Bogel's

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Speaker 1: kind of eat those say as well. So the point

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Speaker 1: Vanguard's whole rais on detra is still lowering costs. It

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Speaker 1: has this unusual mutualized ownership structure UM, where it's funds

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Speaker 1: owned the firm and therefore the investors in the fund

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Speaker 1: zone the firm. So it's different from any other kind

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Speaker 1: of East on Wall Street. But UM, you know, it

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Speaker 1: has this community of die hard fans called the Bogolheads,

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Speaker 1: and they've observed some of this change happening in some

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Speaker 1: cases raised in eyebrow, and he talked to us about

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Speaker 1: the culture at Vanguard. One of the things that jumps

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Speaker 1: out of me, was they won't pay their people that well,

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Speaker 1: do they? What's the culture there? Right? So, because the

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Speaker 1: firm is so focused on cost cutting and is located

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Speaker 1: away from Wall Street in this suburb of Pennsylvania, Malvern,

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Speaker 1: it has a different kind of culture. It has a

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Speaker 1: very insular culture. UM. It has a culture of Bogol

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Speaker 1: founded the firm UH with this kind of focus on

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Speaker 1: ship terminology that comes from Vanguards, named after an eighteenth

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Speaker 1: century naval ship. UM. So the staff is called a crew. Um.

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Speaker 1: They use a lot of nautical terminology. Uh. They're removed

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Speaker 1: from Wall Street and by most people's accounts, a little

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Speaker 1: bit less hard charging and sharp elbowed as it can

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Speaker 1: be to work at some kinds of competitors. UM. And

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Speaker 1: and because the firm is focused on cost cutting, you're

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Speaker 1: not going to get the kind of dazzling salaries you

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Speaker 1: might be able to elsewhere, because you know, the point,

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Speaker 1: so much of the point of working at Vanguard is

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Speaker 1: this mission of lowering costs for investors. So to work

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Speaker 1: there you kind of have to buy into that mentality.

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Speaker 1: And UM. One thing we note in the story is

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Speaker 1: that UH typically they pay about a third less than

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Speaker 1: other major Wall Street competitors as a result, Well, you

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Speaker 1: don't have to pay too much if you're if all

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Speaker 1: you're gonna do is I the SMP in a basket

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Speaker 1: and hold it until you die, right, which is kind

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Speaker 1: of what Jack Bogel used to a spouse. Um. So

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Speaker 1: it's interesting. I mean, I don't need much advice for that, Annie,

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Speaker 1: I just you know, I just gave it, that's right.

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Speaker 1: So that's another interesting thing Vogel. Vogel's real adherents are

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Speaker 1: very do it yourself kinds of investors. When you talk

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Speaker 1: to people who are in the Bogol Heads community, many

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Speaker 1: of them independently came to Bogel's philosophies, read his books,

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Speaker 1: and became almost religiously devoted to his principles about making

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Speaker 1: sure that you're paying very low fees and just you know,

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Speaker 1: buying the market um through index funds, letting it compound

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Speaker 1: over times. They're they're very, very focused on that. So

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Speaker 1: that's another way that the shift to advice could be

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Speaker 1: seen as a little bit different from what Bogel had

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Speaker 1: had previously preached. All right, Annie, thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: We appreciate that. At a note, Annie and your piece,

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Speaker 1: you quote Eric Balcunis and analyso Bloomberg Intelligence. He's got

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Speaker 1: a new book out. It's author it's called The Bogel Effect.

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Speaker 1: Uh So talks about Bogel's life and influence. So any

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Speaker 1: quoted Mr Balcunis in there. Maybe we'll get Eric on

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Speaker 1: at some point to talk about his book and his

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Speaker 1: thoughts and what he discovered about these huge fund down

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Speaker 1: in suburban Philadelphia. Any massive industry reporter for Bloomberg News

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Speaker 1: with a big take story today, you can find that

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Speaker 1: on Bloomberg dot com, Slash Big Take or ni Space

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Speaker 1: Big Take go on the Bloomberg terminal. Interest rates they're rising, inflation,

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Speaker 1: it's rising, the economy it's slowing. What is an equity

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Speaker 1: investor to do? Hugh Robert's head of analytics at quant Insights,

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Speaker 1: joins us. Hugh, I guess i'd love to get your

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Speaker 1: thoughts about these markets here, given some of the notable

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Speaker 1: headwinds we have out there, What is your take? Well, interestingly,

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Speaker 1: on our models, Although you have a lot of scary

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Speaker 1: headlines out there, and I totally get the narrative that

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Speaker 1: that people are looking at, I've actually just seen a

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Speaker 1: bounce which made complete sense on our modeling work. The

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Speaker 1: way the pattern of association between smp MASDAK, Russell and

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Speaker 1: macro factors is as long as the said are relatively

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Speaker 1: measured with their rate hiking campaign, and as long as

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Speaker 1: that measurement involves you know, none distruction to credit spreads,

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Speaker 1: no big risk of music regards to VIX, and actually,

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Speaker 1: on current patterning, there's no reason why this has to

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Speaker 1: be bad for US equity markets. The key that we're

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Speaker 1: really watching is the relationship with credit spreads and also

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Speaker 1: the level of real yields. So I think the game

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Speaker 1: changing will be if the fends campaign starts to continue

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Speaker 1: to see real yields moving higher and even start threatening

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Speaker 1: to move into positive territory, then you can have original change.

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Speaker 1: But for now, equities are actually doing what they should

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Speaker 1: be doing given current map for patterns. YA really ills

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Speaker 1: right now are negative fifty three basis points on the tenure.

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Speaker 1: Um uh. But the question is um, I guess we

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Speaker 1: could still go into a recession and equities could be fine, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't always have to mean that we

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Speaker 1: have losses on indexes. Because the economy contracts for two

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Speaker 1: quarters in a row. I think that's a really fair comment,

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Speaker 1: I al really do. And also I think just to

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Speaker 1: take a step back on that, I think the Keith

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Speaker 1: in now is is that the information narrative is everywhere.

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Speaker 1: Everyone knows the dynamic around inflation, even the last residaws

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Speaker 1: of tin transitory. I think they're who were still hanging

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Speaker 1: in there at the beginning of this year. Comfort in

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Speaker 1: Ukraine's gonna killed those guys off, and and people aren't

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Speaker 1: looking at transitory at all. But I think the big

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Speaker 1: question now to your point, is if it's stagnation that

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Speaker 1: could on extaglation and inflation, that's actually not necessarily a

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Speaker 1: bad regime for equity market. Um, if it's proper staculation

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Speaker 1: while we're talking about a real kind of hard landing

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Speaker 1: and inflation, then yes that's different. But at the moment, yes,

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Speaker 1: there's lots of reasons if you look at kind of

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Speaker 1: credit impulse and what the yield curve is doing to

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Speaker 1: to to fear a hard landing, but we're not actually

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Speaker 1: seeing there in the data as yet. So again I

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Speaker 1: think at the moment there's lots of headline reasons to

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Speaker 1: scare equities, but on the analysis that we're seeing at

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Speaker 1: the moment, they're largely behaving if they should be all

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Speaker 1: right you So, if if I'm as Tom Keenelix say,

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Speaker 1: have the courage to be in the market, in the

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Speaker 1: equity markets, what are some of the sectors that you

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Speaker 1: guys are focusing on these days. Well, the most interesting

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Speaker 1: one is that we have the ability to fill of

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Speaker 1: look at the standard investment plot. You know, whether an

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Speaker 1: asset to booming bust goldilocks, and what's the kind of

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Speaker 1: macro regime that it's in and at the moment the

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Speaker 1: looking at the index the global index level, the one

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Speaker 1: that stands out is that the NASDACK has the strongest

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Speaker 1: probity sentsitute to inflation and has a modest but negative

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Speaker 1: sentstitute to growth. I it's okay with the weaker growth,

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Speaker 1: so that the area really us big tex. I think

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Speaker 1: you have to be careful obviously spectech and nonprofitless names,

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Speaker 1: but big tech actually has some nice defensive properties here.

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Speaker 1: If you believe that we're going to go into extaflationary environment,

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Speaker 1: what would you stay away from in general? I'm not

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Speaker 1: asking for a specific company that you hate. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I guess at the end of the logic would obviously

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Speaker 1: be cyclicals and we know that a lot of people

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Speaker 1: rotated into value trades earlier this year. UM, if you're

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Speaker 1: going to get a hard landing, then clude that to

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Speaker 1: the obvious play for you. Other people will pointed the

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Speaker 1: flattening and the curve in the normal relationships pursued with

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Speaker 1: with TEX. There will be a lot of debate I

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Speaker 1: think on the whole kind of ros versus final rination.

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Speaker 1: For us right here, right now, tech it the best

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Speaker 1: place to play. UM. Energy obviously is a classic cyclical blade.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I just think one commodity markets are

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Speaker 1: doing what they're doing, even if it's a six coal play,

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Speaker 1: you wouldn't want to be under exposed to energy just

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Speaker 1: because of the underlying commodity shifts and the supply demand

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Speaker 1: and alex that are out there at the momentum. So

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Speaker 1: I guess that would leave the more classic cyquical things

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Speaker 1: that be like consumer discretionary. UM financials is a value play,

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Speaker 1: but obviously if rates are going higher, that should be

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Speaker 1: doing well. And a lot of financial models on our

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Speaker 1: framework are in the regime that they are behaving in

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Speaker 1: a kind of in a strong macro trading environment that

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Speaker 1: they are lagging slightly. So it probably put consumer discretion

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Speaker 1: we have of both XLF and actively here. What do

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Speaker 1: you make of the destruction we've seen in the bond market.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's been the worst quarter for global bonds

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Speaker 1: in my lifetime. Um, what does that mean. It's brutal,

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Speaker 1: isn't it. It's really brutal, and I think it's only

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Speaker 1: now be challenged by the end um. They've seen the

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Speaker 1: last couple of trading days and the two are fighting

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Speaker 1: between them. UM. I think the thing is with the

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Speaker 1: bond bear market is I think on this occasion now,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people are making good money on it. Um.

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Speaker 1: I think if you look at the commitment of traders stuff,

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Speaker 1: you look at a lot of the kind of cell

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Speaker 1: side positioning surveys. You know, it's been easy to make

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Speaker 1: a bare res duration argument for some months now. So

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Speaker 1: I think performance stats for your typical multi asset fund

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Speaker 1: will actually be pretty decent. And yes, the price action

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Speaker 1: is horrible, UM, but I don't think everyone will be chronic.

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Speaker 1: All right here, thanks so much for joining us. Love

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Speaker 1: getting your thoughts there. Hugh Robert's head of analytics at

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Speaker 1: quant Insights. All right, let's go to Christie Why because

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Speaker 1: I want to talk cyber security. We're seeing that continue

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Speaker 1: to be a big issue for individuals, for corporations, for

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Speaker 1: states slash countries. Christie Wyatt, CEO and president of Absolute Software, Christie,

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Speaker 1: you know, we we kind of look at all the

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Speaker 1: news coming out of Ukraine and Russia and you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the areas where we're seeing some disputes in cybersecurity,

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Speaker 1: cyber warfare. Just give us a sense kind of where

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Speaker 1: the average American company or average American is in terms

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Speaker 1: of dealing with cybersecurity. It seems like we're still many

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Speaker 1: steps behind where the bad guys are. Well, sorry, excuse me,

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Speaker 1: I think it's it's a great question, um, but I

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Speaker 1: think we're always going to feel that way. I think

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Speaker 1: that cyber is one of those risk landscapes where things

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Speaker 1: are going to continuously evolve and we're always going to

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Speaker 1: feel like we're just a little bit behind. I do

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Speaker 1: think that the average enterprise in in the US that

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Speaker 1: we see today is pretty well protected, meaning that they've

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Speaker 1: been thoughtful about what kind of controls they need in place.

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Speaker 1: I think the missing pieces do they have perfect visibility

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Speaker 1: of whether those things, the technologies are actually installed in

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Speaker 1: working and protecting them, especially now when we know that

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Speaker 1: we're all sort of shields up right, we are all

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Speaker 1: on standby waiting to see what happens. Yeah, exactly, Um,

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Speaker 1: what what should I be doing? What should we all

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Speaker 1: be doing? As you know private citizens? M Is there

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Speaker 1: anything beyond two step verification? Oh? Gosh, the average the

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Speaker 1: average enterprise UM business, so large business will start with them.

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Speaker 1: You know, they have between ten and twenty security applications

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Speaker 1: running on every computer that there are ways are using.

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Speaker 1: So there's a lot more than multi factor authentication, and

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Speaker 1: clearly the smaller the organization, the less of those you have.

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Speaker 1: I would say there's really three things that you that

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Speaker 1: we should be thinking about. First is have we been

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Speaker 1: thoughtful about, um, what applications are appropriate for your side

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Speaker 1: of business? Multi factor authentication? Encryption? The second thing is

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Speaker 1: you know do do I know what I'm going to do?

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Speaker 1: Is something that happens successful cyber attack? They're happening with

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Speaker 1: phishing emails, things that a user clicks on, and so

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Speaker 1: they're bound to happen no matter how much training you're doing.

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Speaker 1: Do you know what you're going to do next? Um?

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Speaker 1: And that leaves me to my third thing, which is

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Speaker 1: just training. Have you talked to your employees. Have you

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Speaker 1: talked to the people around to the people you care

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Speaker 1: about and said, do you know what phishing looks was?

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Speaker 1: Do you know what what bad things look like when

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Speaker 1: they're happening? Will you recognize it? And will you know

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Speaker 1: kind of what to do? So, I mean, one of

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Speaker 1: the things that we've noticed as pandemic is people were

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Speaker 1: spending a lot more time working from home, learning from home.

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Speaker 1: It seems like there's more and more data information going

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Speaker 1: into the clouds. The cloud inherently safe. Do you believe

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Speaker 1: I think that. I mean, clearly, we would not see

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Speaker 1: the migration of data into the cloud if we didn't

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Speaker 1: feel comfortable with the level of security there. I don't

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Speaker 1: think that's really where you're risks. Never say never, But

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Speaker 1: the overwhelming number of attacks that we see are actually

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Speaker 1: happening on the end points. They're happening on the computer

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Speaker 1: that the user is using as a way to facilitate

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Speaker 1: getting access to the data. And that data could be

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Speaker 1: on the cloud, or in the data center, or on

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Speaker 1: the computer itself. And so the endpoint is the place

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Speaker 1: to focus. It is what people touch, and especially as

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Speaker 1: you pointed out, because everybody's at home and so you

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Speaker 1: have fewer layers of security available to you. You can't

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Speaker 1: there's not network monitoring. These devices are not surrounded. They

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Speaker 1: could be sitting on a home network, and so that

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Speaker 1: user and those applications you're installing on that device on

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Speaker 1: your last line of defense. It does seem like it's

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Speaker 1: just gonna be too easy. I mean, I've I, you know,

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Speaker 1: watch for this stuff and nonetheless have been either scammed

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Speaker 1: or almost scammed like two or three times this quarter. Um,

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Speaker 1: they're just so good, they're so good at it. You know,

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Speaker 1: I had a for example, I had a call from

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Speaker 1: purportedly Verizon. They knew my name, my address, they asked

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Speaker 1: for my sociald A uh, you know, the last four

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Speaker 1: digits of course, and they knew exactly how much my

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Speaker 1: bill was to the penny at that moment. So they

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Speaker 1: clearly they have access to data and then they use

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Speaker 1: it to get that That's not the kind of attack.

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Speaker 1: I guess we're concerned about what do you think the

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Speaker 1: Russians will be able to do if they hit us

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Speaker 1: as hard as they can. So if someone was going

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Speaker 1: to try to disrupt an economy or a community, they're

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Speaker 1: going to attack critical infrastructure they're going to go after

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Speaker 1: financial services, communications, power, and energy, and so it is.

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Speaker 1: You know, it is perhaps um innocuous. It could be

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Speaker 1: a we said the breach We thought octo a couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks ago, with a support rep or somebody who

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Speaker 1: had access to do support controls accidentally clicking or getting

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Speaker 1: access to their credentials and then being able to use

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Speaker 1: that to do other things. And so it could look

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Speaker 1: as simple as what you just described, right. It could

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Speaker 1: look like your Verizon bill where they're just trying to

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Speaker 1: collect information from you. It could look like, um, somebody

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Speaker 1: is asking you to verify a payment that is missing

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Speaker 1: or insurance. Internally, within organizations, we see a lot of

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Speaker 1: attacks where people are getting approached that looks like an

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Speaker 1: executive is asking them to do something. You know, please

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Speaker 1: go you know, please go log in and do this thing,

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Speaker 1: or please go get this money and sent it over here. Um.

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Speaker 1: The thing to remember, whether you're a user at home

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Speaker 1: or whether you're an employee trying to do your job

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Speaker 1: at work, is they're not really going to call you. Guys.

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Speaker 1: It's never going to call you and say hi, I'd

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Speaker 1: like to talk to you. Please give me all of

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Speaker 1: your data. The easiest thing to do is to say,

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Speaker 1: you know, to not respond to the email, to not

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Speaker 1: to that call, and then just call them and then

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Speaker 1: say did you try to reach me? And and so

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Speaker 1: don't click all right, Christie, thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: joining us there. Christie Wyatt, the CEO and president of

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Speaker 1: Absolute Software, Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Markets podcast.

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Speaker 1: on Twitter at Matt Miller three. Put on False Whinnie.

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Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter p T Sweeney before the podcast. You

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Speaker 1: can always catch us worldwide at Bloomberg Radio m