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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome. That's my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hartstart,

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Speaker 1: that's Karen kil Gariff. And this is twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 2: I mean I was going to say, like this is

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Speaker 2: our ceramics display.

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Speaker 1: Oh, we're all right, we're just going right. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: just feels weird to be back. But let's and so

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Speaker 1: let's do something weird.

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Speaker 2: We have to point out the elephant in the room,

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Speaker 2: because that's all anyone's looking at anyway.

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Speaker 1: If they're looking, though, some people might just be listening.

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Speaker 2: Listen, listeners, you need to start looking. We told you

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Speaker 2: that years ago.

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Speaker 1: Look and listen. That's what we've been saying.

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Speaker 2: It's we built it into the beginning of the podcast

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Speaker 2: before we even knew we were doing video.

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Speaker 1: Basically next week. I was going to say tomorrow, but

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Speaker 1: it's next week. What is time is our ten year anniversary.

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Speaker 2: Episode ten Years, which is fucking crazy, wild as hell,

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Speaker 2: so crazy that we haven't even finished talking about the

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Speaker 2: gifts we got from.

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Speaker 1: The nine year anniversary, which was a year ago.

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Speaker 2: A year ago, and we got so many beautiful, lovely,

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Speaker 2: handmade ceramic gifts. Right, we thought it would be like

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Speaker 2: a couple people who could throw some clay would be like, sure,

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Speaker 2: we were inundated with beautiful art.

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Speaker 1: And it's funny because so nine year anniversary is ceramics

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Speaker 1: obviously ten years like tinfoil, what is it? It's tin.

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Speaker 1: It's so boring. That's like we have to like finish

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Speaker 1: this up and not ask for tinfoil.

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Speaker 2: Please send us as much Reynalds Wrap as you can

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Speaker 2: Reynolds Wrap if you're out there, if you're looking and listening, well.

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Speaker 1: We're using the name brand.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, that's right, Okay, because Reynolds Wrap the time

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Speaker 2: of our lives.

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Speaker 1: Let's get these out of the way really quickly and

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Speaker 1: then nine years is over.

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Speaker 2: And then let's stop talking about and just wrap it up.

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Speaker 1: This is a serp. This is a ceramics Siamese like

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Speaker 1: vintage cat with an incredible necklace on it that I'm

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Speaker 1: obviously obsessed with.

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Speaker 2: When I first saw that, I was like, they made

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Speaker 2: the whole thing, and it's like, no, Karen, they just

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Speaker 2: made the necklace like it's a ceramics thing.

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Speaker 1: No, obviously, here's what they did. Oh, you got the

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Speaker 1: full story. It's Jordan from j mac Ceramics j m

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Speaker 1: AC Ceramics who found a mold from the nineteen seventies

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Speaker 1: of this cat from someone's garage. They found it. They

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Speaker 1: found hundreds of molds. They do ceramics, so it's it's

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Speaker 1: new vintage. So the mold is vintage, that clay is new,

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Speaker 1: the cat is new. And I didn't know you could

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Speaker 1: do that. You could make your own.

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Speaker 2: That's when you really care about ceramics.

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Speaker 1: Right, And Jordan also looked at the markings to make

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Speaker 1: sure that they were like correct to Elvis. So this

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Speaker 1: is like the only one that I had.

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Speaker 2: That's cross eyed. Do you want to process these feelings?

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Speaker 2: Is that's that's like a tribute almost, that's beautiful.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I can process. Yeah, you shouldn't

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Speaker 1: do it on the show. Feelings are hard for me.

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Speaker 1: It'll take a.

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Speaker 2: While, but feelings are great content. Yeah, this is this

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Speaker 2: is hey, listeners, this is why you gotta look because

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Speaker 2: you should see this. This cat is so beautifully made.

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Speaker 1: Oh it's so cool looking, it's perfect. Can we put

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Speaker 1: it right? Let's put it on? Yeah, what a lovely gift.

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Speaker 1: And then what if I break it? What if I

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Speaker 1: break it? And then Jordan also made you dog bowls.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, those dog balls are gorgeous.

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Speaker 1: So that's really really cool. So Jordan from Jmax Ceramic

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Speaker 1: has been probably waiting a year and been like, look,

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Speaker 1: I fucking did what you guys asked.

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Speaker 2: I not only did I do what you asked, but

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Speaker 2: above and beyond walk into people's garages and got these

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Speaker 2: molds that they don't use anymore.

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Speaker 1: That really is art.

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Speaker 2: That's incredible.

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Speaker 1: Okay, what do you what do you have to share

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Speaker 1: with the class?

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Speaker 2: Well, these are incredible. So this was sent in by

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Speaker 2: cako in Oae from Keko pots on Instagrams. Call that

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Speaker 2: k e I ko p o t s got it.

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Speaker 2: And these are stacking mothman mugs with.

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Speaker 1: This beautiful artwork.

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Speaker 2: I guess we should really very heavily describe this to

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Speaker 2: the listeners. Right, So these are beautiful, big ceramics stacking

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Speaker 2: hippie coffee mugs with no handles. So it's like you're

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Speaker 2: just supposed supposed to take.

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Speaker 1: Your dandylion tea and stand at the window. Yeah, put

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Speaker 1: your both hands around the mug like you like you

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Speaker 1: just went through something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The funny thing is they stack and make a hole mothman,

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Speaker 1: but the top part is the face. So who do

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Speaker 1: you give the crotch of the mothman too, to someone

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Speaker 1: you hate or someone you love.

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Speaker 2: I think it depends on what you're into, okay.

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Speaker 1: Because take it apart, it's a crotch, don't have a

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Speaker 1: crotch of it.

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Speaker 2: And then the top just looks like a sneaky little

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Speaker 2: moth man peeking over like a fence, sneaky.

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Speaker 1: Cute mothman with two middle fingers up and then crotch man.

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Speaker 2: Well and more so this this mug on the back

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Speaker 2: very lightly has edged into it by b White.

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Speaker 1: On the bottom it says, bitches, oh perfect.

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Speaker 2: So you know there is a real high low above

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Speaker 2: below situation happening with the stacking.

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Speaker 1: That's what art's all about, truly, who are you? Are

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Speaker 1: you up here? You down here?

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Speaker 2: Drink out of that mug that day? This is amazing.

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Speaker 1: I really love this one. I was excited when I

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Speaker 1: saw that. I think that'll go up for sure.

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Speaker 2: But I really was confused when I saw this next one,

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Speaker 2: which I thought someone just sent us in a butterfly

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Speaker 2: where it's like you got the assignment wrong.

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Speaker 1: It looks like a pinned moth, a beautiful pinned like

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Speaker 1: real dead moth or butterfly in the middle of a frame. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's fucking made of ceramics.

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Speaker 2: Ceramics, so it's like I honestly thought it was like

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Speaker 2: you guys didn't get it. Here's the I'll just read

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Speaker 2: this email fast. This is from Noel and Lisa, and

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Speaker 2: it says, here's to nine incredible years from two of

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Speaker 2: your longtime listeners in Boise, Idaho, like these ceramic butterflies

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Speaker 2: made by Lisa, who owns the Potter Center. You've embraced

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Speaker 2: metamorphosis in all its beautiful, awful, messy glory in the

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Speaker 2: public I know less. And then in parentheses all caps,

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Speaker 2: it says queens. And then it says thank you for

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Speaker 2: giving us community and the chaos permission to laugh despite

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Speaker 2: the darkness, a nudge to prioritize mental health, and for

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Speaker 2: telling such important stories with empathy and nuance. You've inspired

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Speaker 2: both of us in countless ways. Here's to transformation, community

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Speaker 2: and art. I love that SSDGM Noel and Lisa. And

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Speaker 2: then just the most intricate, beautiful, small symbolic butterfly.

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Speaker 1: I thought it would be a moth because you like moths,

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Speaker 1: Like that's all it meant, But that's actually like really beautiful.

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Speaker 2: It's really poetic and thank you, know on Lisa, that's

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Speaker 2: so thoughtful.

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Speaker 1: We're looking forward to what you make out of tinfoil.

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Speaker 1: Good luck beating the moth. Okay, so this last one

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Speaker 1: you don't have the paper on because I wanted to

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Speaker 1: surprise you. Okay, okay, this one is so you can see.

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Speaker 1: It's like an SSDGM stained glass hot dog mustard thing.

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Speaker 2: A hot dog stained glass window piece.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and this is from a Laura at Down the

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Speaker 1: Line Design and it says, hello everyone, I am a

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Speaker 1: stained glass artist out of Colorado. I've been wanting to

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Speaker 1: do these pieces for a long time now and finally

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Speaker 1: made time for it. I hope they arrived safely and

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Speaker 1: fill your heart with joy. So it's not ceramics, but

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna let it happen anyways. Hell yeah, because I

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Speaker 1: want to show you what else they made this cool

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Speaker 1: SSCGM went one, but Alaura also made close your eyes. Okay, okay, look.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, dead pets, dead pets, stained glass dead pets,

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Speaker 2: and that looks they have the look of our pets exactly.

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Speaker 1: So then look at this. I know that's the crazy.

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Speaker 1: Just have dead eyes. That's how it is. Oh, my god. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so Elvis and Georgia's stained glass pieces and they're fucking beautiful,

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Speaker 1: so beautiful. So I guess that's what a Laura does.

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Speaker 1: Laura says, I had a corn dog piece go viral,

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Speaker 1: selling many of them. I don't have any interesting hometowns,

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Speaker 1: but I live in Denver, so insert any story from there.

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Speaker 1: So there's a lot.

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Speaker 2: And oh, I see the eyes are hand painted, that's

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Speaker 2: why they're They're all white and then painted.

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Speaker 1: The eye color so gorgeous.

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Speaker 2: I mean, people, we have so many of these items.

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Speaker 2: We should just go through, you know, just keep on

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Speaker 2: going through them. There's so many amazing things.

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Speaker 1: Totally, so thank you guys for the last year, for

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Speaker 1: our nine anniversary, now year universary, we have a year

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Speaker 1: to say thank you, right, yes, I thank you, so

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Speaker 1: so thank you for those We treasure all of them.

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Speaker 1: The ones we haven't talked about, we've seen and we

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Speaker 1: fucking love them all incredible.

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Speaker 2: I mean, these are just this is just a drop

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Speaker 2: in the ocean of the great stuff we've got.

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Speaker 1: All right.

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Speaker 2: What a way to come back from a nice long break.

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Speaker 1: It's been a long break. It's so weird to be back.

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Speaker 1: How is your break? How is your It was lovely.

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Speaker 2: I as I usually do on break when I go

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Speaker 2: home stay with my dad. He watches football with the

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Speaker 2: football pipe directly into his hearing aids and I sit

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Speaker 2: next to him looking at TikTok and then when there's

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Speaker 2: a good play he stops, rewinds it and says, look

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Speaker 2: this run. And then I have to talk to him

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Speaker 2: about football, like I understand what we're talking about, and

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Speaker 2: like I'm super into it.

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Speaker 1: And every time, by the end of the trip, I

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Speaker 1: am in, yeah, so you go stop, you need to

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Speaker 1: see this TikTok.

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Speaker 2: Ever I do I actually I just text him the.

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Speaker 1: TikTok oh and you can watch it now. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So if I start laughing really hard, he sometimes it'll

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Speaker 2: pull him out. So we'll be like, what's going on

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Speaker 2: and they'll be like, so it's a very weird. We've

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Speaker 2: gotten our modern language now.

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Speaker 1: Love it a little bit. That's how that's how it

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Speaker 1: is now.

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Speaker 2: It's really relaxing to.

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Speaker 1: Tumors and gen X, like this is how we connect

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Speaker 1: with our parents.

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Speaker 2: TikTok can build a bridge TikTok and football.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we can do this. It's a language all to itself.

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Speaker 2: How was your trip? I mean, how is your break?

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Speaker 1: It was good. We plan on going so many places

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Speaker 1: and then just ended up staying home and it was

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Speaker 1: fucking amazing. Wait, I have I have a New Year's resolution,

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Speaker 1: which I don't normally have. Let's hear it. Okay, this

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Speaker 1: is my plan and I started last month and I'm

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Speaker 1: fucking this is it. I'm making decisions now and doing

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Speaker 1: the hard things now. Now. My point is to help

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Speaker 1: future Georgia great. So I'm saying no to things now

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Speaker 1: even though it's hard in the moment because me in

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Speaker 1: two years isn't going to go. Why didn't I fucking

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Speaker 1: do it then I had said no? Then instead, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to go back and say thank you to myself.

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Speaker 1: Now you're fucking dealing with it in the moment, even

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Speaker 1: though it was uncomfortable and hard. Amazing. So future fucking

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Speaker 1: me life's going to be easier for her and it's

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Speaker 1: a little harder for me, but it's worth it.

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Speaker 2: A little harder in the beginning, yeah, but then easier

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Speaker 2: the second you start.

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Speaker 1: Totally right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I did the same, not the same resolution, but

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Speaker 2: started my resolution because I was like, I just have

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Speaker 2: to do more stuff so that my life isn't just work,

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Speaker 2: and there's just like the expansion of just kind of

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Speaker 2: lots of experiences. So I made my sister because everybody

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Speaker 2: went out of town, so our usual hang people were

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Speaker 2: all gone and it was just me and Laura and

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Speaker 2: Nora and so on New Years, of course, Nora had

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Speaker 2: a party and so I was like, you and I

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Speaker 2: are going to do something, and she's like, I don't

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Speaker 2: want to do any and I'm like, I know, but

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Speaker 2: we're gonna do it anyway.

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Speaker 1: So there was a basically.

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Speaker 2: A Tom Petty cover band playing at the local theater,

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Speaker 2: and so we're like.

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Speaker 1: Let's go see it.

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Speaker 2: So we buy tickets and we go to the pub

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Speaker 2: next door and eat dinner and we're hanging out. The

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Speaker 2: show starts at nine. It's nine oh eight. The band

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Speaker 2: starts and I go, oh my god, there's an opening band.

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Speaker 2: And my sister goes, no, that's them, and I go,

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Speaker 2: this is a New Year's Eve show and I go,

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Speaker 2: there's no way that's the actual band, and she goes

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Speaker 2: it is and she's like, I've gone to shows there before.

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Speaker 1: It's the real band.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, but they have to fill time until midnight,

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Speaker 2: and she's like it's the band, and but we were

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Speaker 2: like fighting about it because I was like, there's just

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Speaker 2: no way that's how it would go. And we basically

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Speaker 2: sat there like talking and laughing or whatever, and it

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Speaker 2: was over at ten and we never went Yeah, that's

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Speaker 2: the adults want to do, right. It was like, wait,

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Speaker 2: do we have to get up and run in there now?

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Speaker 2: Because they started literally on time? Like who does that?

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Speaker 1: People who want to be home by minut night and

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Speaker 1: in bed by midnight?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I was.

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Speaker 2: I really had my weird la goggles on where it

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Speaker 2: was like, did listening starts at eleven fifteen?

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Speaker 1: And she's like, I'm telling you, they wants to be

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Speaker 1: listening to music all the way through midnight? Oh everyone

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Speaker 1: wants to go home? Yeah? Yeah the podcast I do?

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Speaker 2: Okay, So I had to do the drive again, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: because the dogs came and I listened to beth'stead. What

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Speaker 2: a cool thing to listen to those guys talk through

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Speaker 2: the other side of an experience like that. It's like

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Speaker 2: everybody's heard about like that kind of stuff and then

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Speaker 2: the after effect, but it's like you always get it

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Speaker 2: from the one perspective, and it's like the people who

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Speaker 2: went through it and are like, this is what we

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Speaker 2: went through and we're going to tell you all about it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was just so cool and so personal.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it wasn't Elizabeth Lane wonderful. It's just like it was.

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Speaker 1: She and Monaka are just like such lovely people.

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Speaker 2: Also, they were so smart. It's like they weren't out

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Speaker 2: to get anybody. They wanted answers. So it wasn't about

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Speaker 2: It wasn't which Hume and I handled everything really well.

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Speaker 2: This is an interesting parallel because this is a podcast

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Speaker 2: called Undercover of Night and I literally just found it

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Speaker 2: on like the iTunes homepage and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I forgot to pick something, I'll just pick this. And

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Speaker 2: it's about a woman who is found dead in a

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Speaker 2: small town in Texas and there's all these strange circumstances

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Speaker 2: around her life and around her home. She lives in

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Speaker 2: a tiny Texas town, but she has a British accent.

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Speaker 2: People know her, but not well. They find stuff in

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Speaker 2: her house that people suddenly start drawing conclusions, and essentially,

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Speaker 2: I think one of the log lines that they say

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Speaker 2: is if people found you dead and they just saw

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Speaker 2: what was around you, what would they think about you?

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Speaker 2: Or what could they come up with about you. And

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Speaker 2: so it's these podcasters who are like journalists and researchers

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Speaker 2: who are just trying to get answers and like compare just.

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Speaker 1: Just like a mystery of who this person is and

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Speaker 1: they it's.

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Speaker 2: Like locals who had to deal with it, who then

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Speaker 2: told stories based on things that were found in the

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Speaker 2: house and.

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Speaker 1: Do they figure it out?

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Speaker 2: Yes, okay, And it's so compelling, it's so well done.

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Speaker 2: And it's the same thing where it's like that idea

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Speaker 2: of like having an idea and running with it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and then here comes the researcher, fact journalist person or

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Speaker 2: whatever to be like, well, that actually doesn't track with

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Speaker 2: what we knew from before.

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Speaker 1: I love the mister. Okay, what's it called again? Undercover

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Speaker 1: of night? Undercover of night?

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Speaker 2: And it's just basically how mysterious a woman alone who

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Speaker 2: dies is and what's murdered? Well, they're not sure, they're

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Speaker 2: not sure. It's suspicious circumstances to the people who find her. Okay,

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Speaker 2: And so that's the whole thing. Okay, And it's really good,

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Speaker 2: okay and really well done. I'm in I love it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, should we do the first twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: six highlights of the Exactly Right Network. I think we

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Speaker 1: shoulday we have a podcast network. It's called Exactly Right Media.

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Speaker 1: Here are some highlights.

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Speaker 2: Well, we have a brand new podcast, a legal podcast

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Speaker 2: called Brief Recess and host Michael Melissa. This week they

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Speaker 2: break down the Getty Art Museum curators, alleged conspiracy to

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Speaker 2: receive stolen goods, ongoing threats to trans writes through the

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Speaker 2: Child's v.

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Speaker 1: Salazar case that's.

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Speaker 2: Going on right now, and an unfortunate update involving JK.

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Speaker 2: Rowling that's probably connected to that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and then on do you need a Rite? Hey,

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Speaker 1: Chris and Karen, welcome back. Comedian and musician Henry Phillips.

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Speaker 1: One of the funniest people, just one of the greatest.

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Speaker 1: They cover awkward celebrity encounters, alien invasions, and mozz.

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Speaker 2: Awkward celebrity encounter is so hilarious, I'm sure because he's

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Speaker 2: so awkward to begin with and so funny. Also, if

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Speaker 2: you don't know Henry Phillips, he had a viral video

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Speaker 2: called You and Your Fucking Mug of Coffee That was

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Speaker 2: one of my favorite things because it was like he

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Speaker 2: would walk around with a giant mug of coffee, and

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Speaker 2: like the first one is he use it a voting

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Speaker 2: booth and he's just spilling coffee everywhere. And I was

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Speaker 2: absolutely that person with the mug of coffee. I couldn't control.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it's great. He's so good.

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Speaker 2: Also on the podcast My Favorite Murder, if you're craving

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Speaker 2: more of our content in the new year, then you

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Speaker 2: need to go over to the Fan Cult because they've

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Speaker 2: got you covered. You get all the episodes of this show,

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00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,800
Speaker 2: ad free, march store discounts, exclusive video content, and much

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00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:21,320
Speaker 2: much more.

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Speaker 1: So go to fancult dot supercast dot com to join

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Speaker 1: the fan Cult. That's right, and please do not forget

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Speaker 1: to follow My Favorite Murder on Instagram and TikTok so

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Speaker 1: you never miss all the clips, polls, and important announcements

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Speaker 1: we share, like breaking pet news Frank has arthritis.

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Speaker 2: I mean, does everybody know that we? I think they

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Speaker 2: need to.

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Speaker 1: It's twenty twenty six. It's time to know important details.

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Speaker 1: So you can find all of our socials on linktr

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Speaker 1: dot ee slash My Favorite Murder. All right, it's you

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Speaker 1: go first. All right, Well, I'm gonna start twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: six by irritating this ship. Out of you with a

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Speaker 1: cold case. Perfect. You know, I love a cold case.

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Speaker 1: I feel like this one can be solved. Paul Hols

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Speaker 1: has opinions about it too, so you know it's important.

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Speaker 1: Did you call him on the phone? No, he has done.

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Speaker 1: He's talked about it in the past. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I agree with him. I'll just say that right now.

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Speaker 1: I want to start a fight with Paul.

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Speaker 2: Ho Yes, beef with Paul Holes in twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't think he's right, but well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, what does he know.

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Speaker 2: He's just a thirty five year investigator, right, look at.

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Speaker 1: Me of a ten year fucking podcaster. Bitch. I don't

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Speaker 1: mean bitch as in he's I mean like you're playing

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Speaker 1: a character, yeah, like as a figure of speech. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So this is a cold case double homicide that rocked

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Speaker 1: two Missouri families in nineteen eighty. It's one of those

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Speaker 1: cases that are always on the lists of like unsolved

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Speaker 1: cases that can be solved or that have weird clues

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Speaker 1: in them. So this is a story of the cold

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Speaker 1: case murders of Rose Burkert and Roger Atkinson, and the

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Speaker 1: main sources used for the story is a book by

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Speaker 1: Atkinson's win Bido, whose name is Marcella Lynn Hatcher Atkinson

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Speaker 1: called Act and the rest of the sources can be

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Speaker 1: found in the show notes. So it's Saturday, September thirteenth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty and we're in Williamsburg, Iowa, right outside a

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Speaker 1: place called the Amana Colonies. Ever heard of it? Me? Neither.

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Speaker 1: The Amana Colonies are seven villages that were originally founded

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Speaker 1: by German immigrants in the nineteen fifties, specifically as a

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Speaker 1: religious group that had broken with the Lutheran Church. But

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, yeah, what I say, No, eighteen fifties it

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Speaker 1: was like, were they all like astronauts and stuff? Recently?

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Speaker 2: Why would that's a reason for a colony?

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Speaker 1: I know it is. That's neither here nor there. Because

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Speaker 1: we are outside room two sixty at the Amana Holiday

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Speaker 1: Inn and the housekeeper isn't getting a response as she

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Speaker 1: knocks at the room's door. The couple in the room

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Speaker 1: should have been checked out at this point, but no

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Speaker 1: one has seen them. The housekeeper can hear the TV

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Speaker 1: on in the room, but after a minute goes by

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Speaker 1: with no one answering. She goes inside. When she enters

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Speaker 1: the room. First, she's in this little hallway where you

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Speaker 1: can see into like the end of the room, not

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Speaker 1: the bed, and you can also see the entrance to

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Speaker 1: the bathroom on one side. And so she sees several

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Speaker 1: belongings strewn all over the floor in front of the bed.

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Speaker 1: And once she rounds that little corner and it's like

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Speaker 1: this total eighties sevent these eighties hotel room and can

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Speaker 1: see the bed. She sees two lifeless bodies, a man

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Speaker 1: and a woman, and lots of blood. She calls her

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Speaker 1: boss and the police. So the couple had registered at

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Speaker 1: the front desk as mister and missus Roger Burkert, but

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Speaker 1: this is kind of just half true. When the police arrive,

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Speaker 1: it's determined that the people are Rose Burkert, who is

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Speaker 1: twenty two, and Roger Ekison, who is thirty two. They're

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Speaker 1: not a married couple, but Roger is actually married to

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Speaker 1: someone else, a woman named Marcella Atkinson who goes by Marcy.

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Speaker 1: Actual couple Marcy and Roger live in Saint Joseph, Missouri.

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Speaker 1: So that's two hundred to two twenty miles away, like

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Speaker 1: a four hour drive, let's say, and the two of

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Speaker 1: them have been together since Marcy was fifteen years old

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Speaker 1: and since Roger was eighteen, so high school sweethearts. They've

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Speaker 1: been married a very long time. They don't have any kids,

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Speaker 1: which Marcy will later talk about being due to her

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Speaker 1: having endomitriosis and it had been a very painful, you know,

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Speaker 1: subject in their marriage. Roger works as a telephone installer,

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Speaker 1: but he's also a beloved Sunday school teacher in the church.

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Speaker 1: And then Rose, the twenty two year old who's found

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Speaker 1: in the bed, is also from Saint Joseph, but she

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Speaker 1: and Roger's wife Marcy have never met, so Marcy has

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Speaker 1: no idea who this woman is. Rose has a two

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Speaker 1: year old daughter named Rachel, whose dad isn't in the picture,

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Speaker 1: and she works as a nursing aide at a nursing home.

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Speaker 1: But she's also about to go back to school full

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Speaker 1: time to become a nurse. So it looks, of course,

435
00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 1: as if Roger and Rose had been having an affair

436
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,320
Speaker 1: at the time the murders first happened. Marcy is deeply

437
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,960
Speaker 1: in grief and asks that people not pass judgment on

438
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,720
Speaker 1: her husband and Rose, saying they could have been in

439
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,920
Speaker 1: a motel together for any number of reasons, but as

440
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,240
Speaker 1: time passes, it does seem to be clear even to

441
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:19,040
Speaker 1: her that they were having an affair. So much later,

442
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,200
Speaker 1: when Marcy writes a book about the case, she talks

443
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,320
Speaker 1: about how she and Roger had been struggling in their

444
00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:27,280
Speaker 1: marriage and how he had had several affairs. But as

445
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,040
Speaker 1: of the moment that their bodies are found and the

446
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,440
Speaker 1: cases developing, the families of both victims remain more focused

447
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,199
Speaker 1: on their own grief and wanting the case solved than

448
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,639
Speaker 1: they do on this affair. I mean, what an awful

449
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,760
Speaker 1: feeling to be like, your husband's dead and with another

450
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:43,679
Speaker 1: woman in a hotel room two hundred miles away.

451
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,360
Speaker 2: It's just it's your whole life falls apart. Yeah, probably

452
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 2: every way it could.

453
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:52,160
Speaker 1: Everything you believe in is not true and gone. Yeah, yeah,

454
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,960
Speaker 1: totally so from what people can piece together. On Wednesday,

455
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,719
Speaker 1: two days before she was killed, Rose had left her

456
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,240
Speaker 1: daughter in the care of a friend and had traveled

457
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 1: from Saint Joseph to Cohoka, Missouri, where she had met Roger.

458
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,439
Speaker 1: They checked into a motel as a married couple. Roger

459
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 1: had told his wife Marcy that he'd be on a

460
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,920
Speaker 1: two week work assignment in Cohokah without any time off,

461
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,080
Speaker 1: and that's just he was going to be gone. It

462
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,480
Speaker 1: seems that Rose hadn't planned on being with him that

463
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:22,640
Speaker 1: entire two weeks. She had only arranged for her daughter

464
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,200
Speaker 1: to be cared for through the weekend. So two days later,

465
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,119
Speaker 1: on Friday, the couple then drives about an hour and

466
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,160
Speaker 1: a half north to Williamsburg, Iowa, and they check into

467
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 1: this holiday inn. The hotel had actually been booked solid

468
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,920
Speaker 1: because of Mortician's convention in town, which is so creepy.

469
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, they have to meet too.

470
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:46,440
Speaker 1: They do somewhere, but there had been one cancelation in

471
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,239
Speaker 1: the hotel and Rose and Roger are assigned to that.

472
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,360
Speaker 1: They get the room. It's room two sixty. So it's

473
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,119
Speaker 1: just weird because it doesn't seem like anyone knew they

474
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,440
Speaker 1: were going to be there because they didn't even plan

475
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,680
Speaker 1: the trip really right, Like, it's hours away from where

476
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,640
Speaker 1: they had first met, hours away from their hometown. They

477
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 1: hadn't made a reservation, they weren't even supposed to be

478
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 1: able to get a room. Someone canceled. They get the room.

479
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 1: Does that mean someone was following you? Because someone was

480
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 1: following them? Or was just like a chance encounter. Yeah,

481
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 1: just someone just found victims there. Yeah, you know what

482
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,160
Speaker 1: I mean. And if they hadn't gone there, like would

483
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 1: the person in room two sixty you have been killed anyways,

484
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:27,639
Speaker 1: or would they have been killed? You know, It's just

485
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 1: kind of that thing. It seems like they'd been followed, right, I.

486
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 2: Mean, that was the first thing that popped into my head. Also,

487
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 2: do you think that room two sixty was on the

488
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 2: second floor.

489
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 1: Yes, and it was also inside the hotel, Like you

490
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 1: couldn't get it wasn't like it faced the street and

491
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:42,239
Speaker 1: the doors face the street. It was like you had

492
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 1: to go into the hotel, yeah, to get to the door.

493
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 1: Ooh right, yeah. So the hotel staff say that the

494
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 1: couple ordered room serviced, they moved their car at one point,

495
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 1: and some calls were placed from to and from the room.

496
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 1: That's the information they have. There was a call from

497
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 1: Rose to the babysitter when she first arrived at seven forty,

498
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,440
Speaker 1: and then this babysitter called back, and then a third

499
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 1: call was placed to the room. But we don't really

500
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 1: know any details about where this call came from. So

501
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 1: we're back to the morning up the thirteenth, after the

502
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 1: police are summoned to the hotel, and this is what

503
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 1: they find. There had been no fourthth entry into the

504
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 1: hotel room. But you know, someone could have had a key, right,

505
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 1: and the room could only be accessed from inside the hotel.

506
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,639
Speaker 1: As I said, the key things were too because it

507
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,439
Speaker 1: was an actual key, so anyone who had stayed there

508
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: before could just make a copy of it, right. It

509
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 1: wasn't like it is now where you swipe something to

510
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 1: get in and they change it every time.

511
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 2: But then that would be premeditated in a way where

512
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 2: it would be like so they just wanted to do

513
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 2: that in that room.

514
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know, or they knew who this person

515
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 1: was and they let them in, or they knocked and

516
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 1: they let them in. Who knows. Rose and Roger are

517
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,160
Speaker 1: found on the bed with the covers pulled up all

518
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 1: the way on Rose's side and halfway up on Roger's side,

519
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: so the top half of his body is uncovered. The

520
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,639
Speaker 1: covers are saturated with blood. Rose is wearing all her

521
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,479
Speaker 1: clothes and Roger is only in his boxer shorts and

522
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,959
Speaker 1: both are laying face down. It sounds similar to like

523
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 1: a Golden State killer attack when he would attack couples. Yeah,

524
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,199
Speaker 1: it just sounds like that to me. Both have been

525
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 1: hit multiple times in the back of the head by

526
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 1: something like an axe or a hatchet. Investigators believe the

527
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: weapon has a three inch blade. They don't find the weapon.

528
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 1: Roger's missing several fingers, likely defensive wounds, I know, though

529
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: most of the wounds are to the back of the head.

530
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 1: Both Rose and Roger have multiple other wounds on the

531
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: top halves of their bodies. There's blood sprayed on the

532
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: headboard and on the floor next to the bed. It's

533
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,880
Speaker 1: just a really awful scene. Rose and Roger's belongings are

534
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 1: scattered all over the floor. It's a big mess. Roger's

535
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 1: wallet has been gone through and some money, maybe around

536
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 1: two hundred dollars is missing. A partial fingerprint is recovered

537
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 1: from the couple's belongings. And so here's the weird couple

538
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 1: weird pieces of evidence. So a chair had been pulled

539
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,160
Speaker 1: up to the bed, as if someone were sitting there

540
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 1: talking to them while they were in bed, or just

541
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 1: watching them after they killed them. They pulled up a

542
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 1: chair and sat down either before or after and underneath

543
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,479
Speaker 1: this chair. Aside from the person having gone through Roger's

544
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 1: wallet and there's cards everywhere. The person took a bar

545
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: of soap and had been like cutting at it. What's

546
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 1: it called when you whittling? Carving? Yeah, carving and whittling

547
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:33,880
Speaker 1: a bar of soap. So just sitting there doing that,

548
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 1: which is so menacing.

549
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,399
Speaker 2: And this was nineteen eighty Yeah, sorry, but there was

550
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 2: a commercial for Irish Spring back then where they cut

551
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 2: soap in the commercial. Do you remember that?

552
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: Do? Even though I shouldn't because I was a baby.

553
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 2: But it probably ran for a long time, but there

554
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 2: it was that the thing that's really really weird and horrifying.

555
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: What a weird like? Who? What kind of person has

556
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 1: that as a hobby? Whittling like whittling soap?

557
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 2: Well, what I don't think whittling soap is a hot

558
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 2: I don't think so they make I think they made

559
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,719
Speaker 2: something out of it or is it just like you

560
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 2: do it to do it? To me, it seems like

561
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 2: knife play where it's like it's threatening, intimidating. It's like

562
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 2: and you like having a knife, so there are different

563
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 2: things you can do with it. Probably don't have like

564
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 2: a block of wood there.

565
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 1: Right, So it seems like it's something you would do.

566
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 1: While they were alive to intimidate them, I mean maybe

567
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: or like who knows. Okay, So then the person, most

568
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 1: likely the perpetrator, uses this piece of soap that he'd

569
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,199
Speaker 1: whittled to write a message on the back of the

570
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: bathroom door, so it's only visible when light hits the door. Unfortunately,

571
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: the person wiped almost the whole message off, but you

572
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: can see one word left behind. It just says this.

573
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 2: I mean, that's like a horror movie, like that kind

574
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 2: of thing of like, there's a message that reminds me

575
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 2: of it. It's in seven right where it's like you

576
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 2: flip the picture over and there's a thing written there, yes,

577
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 2: that you can only see in black lights.

578
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 1: That's wow. Yeah, So that's fucking menacing and creepy. There's

579
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:07,679
Speaker 1: a lot more evidence in the bathroom as well. The

580
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 1: sink and one of the white bathroom towels are both

581
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 1: visibly stained with blood, and a tube of toothpaste has

582
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: been squirted into the bathtub and into the sink. So

583
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 1: someone the person then picked up the toothpaste squirted it

584
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: made a mess all over the bathroom. And this is

585
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: part of what Paul Hole's theory is, which I'll get

586
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 1: too shortly toothpaste. What does that mean to you that

587
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: they did that they just wanted to make a mess.

588
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 2: I mean, if they were kind of out of their

589
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 2: minds and doing stuff and in there right, if they're

590
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:37,640
Speaker 2: like looking for stuff or grinding.

591
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 1: Shit on the wall, Yeah, making a mess. It's just

592
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: hard to say him kind of mayhem.

593
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 2: But then also or if they're a full psychopath, it's

594
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 2: just everything's very calm and they're who you know.

595
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, or purposely misleading the police to be like this

596
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: means nothing, but they're gonna think it's a clue.

597
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that feels less likely the further back we

598
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 2: go in time, because I feel like people do stuff

599
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 2: like that because they've been informed over the years by

600
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 2: TV shows and entertainment.

601
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, okay, okay, So here are some theories. Let's

602
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 1: get to those. It sounds like the affair between Roger

603
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: and Rose was possibly developing into more than just a fling.

604
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: People around their hometown of Saint Joseph knew about the affair. Marcy,

605
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: the wife, would later learn from her pastor no less

606
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: that Roger had become really attached to Rose's two year

607
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: old daughter. So people, of course looked at Marcy pretty

608
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: quickly at the wife, as you do, what did pastor know?

609
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: Did he like, go probably talk to his pastor about Yeah,

610
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: probably sounds like it, right. So Marci files a wrongful

611
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: death suit against the Holiday Inn, saying that the hotel

612
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: didn't provide adequate security and that this contributed to Roger's death.

613
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: That lawsuit is ultimately settled out of court, and both

614
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: parties agree to keep some of that settlement private. I

615
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: wonder if there's also details about the evidence in the

616
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 1: case that they didn't want getting out there. So she

617
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 1: gets the settlement from that, and then she also is

618
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 1: able to secure a double indemnity life insurance payout from

619
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: various insurance companies that they had life insurance with totally

620
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: one hundred and forty thousand dollars in nineteen eighty in

621
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: today's money, three fifty five point fifty Wow. Yeah, half

622
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: a million dollars. There's a lot of money. Yeah, However,

623
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: like that could just be what couples do sometimes. I

624
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: don't know.

625
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't necessarily mean anything.

626
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like people die and that happens all the time,

627
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 1: so it doesn't really mean anything. And she does have

628
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: an alibi. She'd been babysitting for a couple that was

629
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: out of town when this happened. And again this is

630
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: hours away from their hometown, so she couldn't have gone

631
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: up and back, but maybe she hired someone to. Maybe

632
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: she was pissed, you know. And then I think they

633
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: kind of stopped paying attention to her as a suspect

634
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: because she has an alibi. It doesn't seem like they

635
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: could they have any evidence. But also there are other

636
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: theories that are compelling as well. So another possibility is

637
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: that the killer could have been an ex boyfriend of

638
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: Rose's who had apparently been stalking her in the weeks

639
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: leading up to the murder. On September ninth, right before

640
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: she left to go on this trip with Roger, Rose

641
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 1: had told a friend two things that if anything ever

642
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: happened to her, she wanted one of her brothers to

643
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: raise her daughter. And then if anything happened to her,

644
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: it would have been her ex who did it. So

645
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: that's not something you say lightly. And then days later

646
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: you're murdered, right, and possibly followed to that location. Yes,

647
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: and that seems like the most plausible explanation, right, But

648
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: then investigators see some chilling similarities between this case and

649
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: a murder that happened just three months earlier, and it

650
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: seems like maybe they stopped pursuing that lead because of

651
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 1: this really weird, confusing similarity of this murder. So, on

652
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: June twenty fifth, nineteen eighty, in Galesburg, Illinois, which is

653
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: about one hundred and thirty miles away from where we were,

654
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: like a two hour drive, a man named William Kyle

655
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: Junior had been killed in a hotel room and his

656
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: wounds had been similar. Police believe that an axe or

657
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: hatchet had been the murder weapon in that case as well.

658
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: And in addition to this, a tube of toothpaste had

659
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: been squeezed out at the foot of the bed. That's weird.

660
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: That's fucking weird. That's really specific. Yeah, like years and

661
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: across the country difference, right, like proximity and time close. Yeah,

662
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: So the question is is squirting a tube of toothpaste

663
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: meaningful in some way that we don't understand? And that's

664
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: where Paul Hols comes in. Oh, because ultimately the murder

665
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 1: of William Kyle Junior is circumstantially linked to a man

666
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: named Raymundo Esparza, who can be placed in the area

667
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: at the time near the hotel. Esparza was a vagrant

668
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: and was addicted to heroin, and that's a known fact.

669
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 1: Although you know that's just a circumstantial tie into this murder,

670
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: the detail is important of the heroin addiction because of

671
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: the stolen money, but also because of the toothpaste which

672
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: was present at both primes. So in twenty nineteen, on

673
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: the Oxygen show The DNA of Murder, Paul Hole says

674
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: that he learned that heroinautics experiencing a rectile dysfunction will

675
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: sometimes squeeze out a tube of toothpaste to stimulate ejaculation

676
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: and experience sexual gratification, which they can't get because of

677
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: the issues with a rectile dysfunction around heroindiction. Yeah, I've

678
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 1: never heard that. I looked it up online. I tried

679
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 1: to find that as like any kind of information that

680
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 1: like pointed in that direction.

681
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I feel like that's more the psychological approach

682
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 2: as opposed to it wouldn't necessarily be online because that

683
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 2: would be more of like this is, you know, you're

684
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 2: equating one to the other, So it's like you're trying

685
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 2: to do the thing that's similar to the feeling, right, So.

686
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: They're not saying heroonautics do that all the time. They're

687
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: saying that could be one reason why that was done.

688
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 2: Could be yeah, yeah, just try looking for some sort

689
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 2: of okay, the why of it.

690
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: Maybe don't have me disagree with Paul so much.

691
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 2: Well, but what's interesting about it is to me, this

692
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 2: is and we've talked about this a lot of the

693
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:14,280
Speaker 2: what is interesting about true crime is the psychology of people,

694
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 2: where it's like the different circumstances in your life that

695
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,959
Speaker 2: bring you to take these actions and what they mean,

696
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 2: and you know your shadows self and the things that

697
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,919
Speaker 2: you haven't processed and the problems you're having, and how

698
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 2: all of those actions really represent something that's going on inside.

699
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: You totally And somehow this like that toothpaste thing, equates

700
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,439
Speaker 1: to me with a hit man even more because it's

701
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 1: this person who is so comfortable with murder, has done

702
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 1: this so many times, it's so destructive and so not

703
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: a big deal that he then makes a mess in

704
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 1: the room and doesn't give a fuck. It's not like

705
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 1: I snuck out and hit all the evidence.

706
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 2: Well, now I have a beef with you, because I

707
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 2: would say hit men just leave totally right, They wouldn't

708
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 2: be messing around or trying.

709
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: To steal money anything. I don't even think kit men

710
00:34:59,000 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: steal money.

711
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 2: I don't think they touch stuff. I think it's like

712
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 2: they get the job done and they.

713
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: Go yeah, and or use a hatchet to begin with.

714
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 2: Although I'll argue myself now, be if with myself where

715
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 2: it's like, but if someone whoever it might have been,

716
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 2: You're not always hiring a CIA grade totally hit man, right.

717
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's like, will you go take care of a

718
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 2: thing I can't deal with?

719
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, who knows? Yeah, and they're not like a professional

720
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 1: at all, and it goes unprofessional hit get it together. Okay.

721
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: So Paul Hols does believe that Rose and Roger were

722
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 1: killed by a serial killer, the same person who killed

723
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 1: William Kyle Junior and possibly another victim back in nineteen seventy.

724
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: That man was named Jack McDonald and he was twenty

725
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: three years old. He had been bludgeoned to death in

726
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: a motel room in Meridian, Mississippi, which is ten hours

727
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,359
Speaker 1: or almost eleven hours away. So who knows, But they're

728
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,800
Speaker 1: all on the same kind of close to that connecting

729
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 1: interstate makes sense.

730
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 2: It's hearkening back to the old man on a train.

731
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 2: That my favorite. Well, it's just the scariest idea. Is

732
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 2: this untraceable stranger totally where it's like there's no one

733
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 2: to connect to it, and he is already on the

734
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 2: train out of town.

735
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 1: Well there is now DNA. Yeah, right, So Asparza's never

736
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 1: charged in any of these cases, and it's so circumstantial.

737
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 1: He's just seen near the scene of the crime in

738
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 1: one of the cases, and he's a heroine autict and

739
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,479
Speaker 1: he dies in nineteen eighty three, but his name keeps

740
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: coming up whenever people talk about this case. Now, in

741
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, one of the bathroom towels that had been

742
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 1: preserved in evidence is retested and DNA is recovered from it.

743
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 1: There are three samples, one from Rose, one from Roger,

744
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: and one from an unknown person. But it's a hotel

745
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 1: room bath towel, Like who knows, yes, how clean that is.

746
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 1: Especially in nineteen eighty they didn't have bleach. Actually no,

747
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: they had like talks the worst kind of maybe it's

748
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,280
Speaker 1: like even more believable, and then.

749
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,760
Speaker 2: There's like a vat of lie down in the basement

750
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 2: or something totally but yeah, the worst case scenario for

751
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 2: trying to get it all down to just one person totally.

752
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: It's not like someone's house where it shouldn't be there

753
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 1: at all. It's so as far as we know at

754
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 1: this point, there's never been a hit on that third sample.

755
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: Maybe they're testing it, maybe they're doing the genealogical DNA.

756
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: We got a hope and on the DNA of murder.

757
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,240
Speaker 1: Paul Hols recommended that Asparza's body being zoom and tested

758
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 1: against that DNA sample. Wow, but as far as we know,

759
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: that hasn't happened yet, and that show is from twenty nineteen,

760
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 1: so he probably couldn't talk yet about the fact that

761
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,399
Speaker 1: you could do genealogical DNA, so you don't even need

762
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 1: to exhuom him. If there's other family members he can

763
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 1: be trust too, right, Yeah, Yeah, So hopefully this doesn't

764
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 1: stay a cold case for much longer. That is the

765
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 1: story of the unsolved murders of Rose Burkert and Roger

766
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 1: at Kitson. And you are sewingingry right now.

767
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 2: Rellie, really furious. Well just it's so compelling. Yeah, but

768
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 2: and also we didn't even talk about like who was

769
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 2: the staff at that motel or a hotel? Did they

770
00:37:58,640 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 2: run background checks on it.

771
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: Someone like never come back to work then, you know,

772
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 1: after that happened.

773
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:06,240
Speaker 2: And get a job at the next hotel.

774
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:10,280
Speaker 1: Totally. It's just it's so sketchy and weird and creepy

775
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighties and makes you think of just these

776
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: like deprived serial killers, Like is that the right word depraved? Depraved?

777
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:20,320
Speaker 1: They're not deprived.

778
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 2: No, It's also like the thing of it's plenty and

779
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 2: bad enough an axe murder or that kind of violence

780
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 2: where it's like but then all of these additional things

781
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 2: that add to it, but also add to the confusion,

782
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 2: because we have heard of lots of stories where it's

783
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 2: like the Golden State killer himself, where there's so many

784
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 2: red herrings.

785
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I think about the toothpaste thing. It

786
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 1: just seems like such a like what's it called when

787
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: you throw a wrench in the thing in the place?

788
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 1: Red hairring? Yep, if you throw a wrench into the

789
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 1: red hairing, when you throw a red hairring into the.

790
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 2: Toolbox, Yeah, you don't want that in there, no.

791
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 1: Because that just lead you in a completely different directionther

792
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 1: than like the obvious basic facts of like you know,

793
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 1: the money being stolen and the fingerprint and the way

794
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 1: they are murdered, no breakin, no sends of breaking, like

795
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 1: instead of that the obvious like basic ones you have

796
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 1: like the soap being whittled and the fucking toothpaste and

797
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:17,800
Speaker 1: the writing in the back of the she just doesn't.

798
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 1: It makes it so much more difficult, it seems like,

799
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 1: to like get a clear answer.

800
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 2: Right and to theorize and to kind of feel like, well,

801
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 2: this is why this happened. Yeah, or obviously obviously it

802
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 2: was you know, it was revenge. Obviously it was blank

803
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 2: and it's just like and no, and also that's a

804
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 2: wife who then has lost her husband in multiple ways

805
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 2: in one story totally, or a heroonautic that's being accused

806
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,760
Speaker 2: of murder and is completely innocent and he's just actually

807
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 2: a victim of his own drug addiction. Absolutely, Like all

808
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 2: of it is just I hope you see I hope

809
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 2: you see my point and never.

810
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: Do a cult. Okay, But like in year eleven, when

811
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 1: I'm like I have an answer to our cold case.

812
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 2: You'll have the last laugh for sure, that's right, But

813
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 2: I won't laugh and no one will be laughing at all.

814
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 2: And it is not a victory. Why do we do this?

815
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:11,720
Speaker 2: Why have we been doing this for ten years.

816
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 1: Some people would argue against it many time of it

817
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 1: all many have, including ourselves. That's right, Wow, that was great, Well,

818
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 1: thank you. I think the reason that.

819
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 2: I get upset is because I'm going to be thinking

820
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 2: about this a lot now.

821
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 1: And that's the thing. That's why I tell you is

822
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 1: I want you to take some of mine from me.

823
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 2: Please take it, take this off of me.

824
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: Very heavy, No, you do it?

825
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well I'm going to put something on you that's

826
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 2: heavy now. Oh great and insane. Okay, So it's a turn.

827
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 2: It's not left.

828
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 1: Though, Okay. I like I like these.

829
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 2: It's one of the crazier stories. And I was going

830
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 2: to do it on tour, but we had so many

831
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 2: good choices on tour.

832
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:55,879
Speaker 1: Yeah.

833
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 2: It takes place in nineteen thirties New York City in

834
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 2: the Bronx, where a guy in his late twenties named

835
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 2: Tony Marino owns a speakeasy. Because it's the Depression era,

836
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 2: a terrible time for almost every American, but it's also

837
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 2: the prohibition era, so alcohol is illegal, but you can

838
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 2: find it if you know where to get it. That

839
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 2: means speakeasyes. So if you don't know a speakeasy is

840
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 2: a secret bar that got its name. I just learned

841
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 2: this speakeasy's got their name from illegal British and Irish

842
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 2: bars of the nineteenth century. They called them speak softly shops.

843
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,959
Speaker 1: I would like not let anyone hear you fucking drunk

844
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 1: as shit, because you're not supposed to be or zip

845
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:35,799
Speaker 1: it about this place.

846
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 2: We're going to go get drunk so we can keep

847
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 2: doing it.

848
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 1: Got it?

849
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 2: But doesn't that sound like I'm joking that they used

850
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 2: to call them speak softly shops in England as opposed

851
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 2: to a speakeasy.

852
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: It sounds like you're making fun of British people. Yeah,

853
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 1: and I think we're going to get emails about it.

854
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 2: We do, okay, so as you know, it's speakeasy special.

855
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 2: Knock on a hidden door, maybe a little window slides open,

856
00:41:57,719 --> 00:41:58,879
Speaker 2: you say the password.

857
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:00,760
Speaker 1: We've seen Who's frame Roger Rabbit.

858
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:05,240
Speaker 2: We've seen Boardwalk Empire, We've seen movies and TV shows,

859
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:10,240
Speaker 2: But speakeasys ran the gamut from being swanky, having beautiful decor,

860
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 2: and very fine liquor to several notches below total dives

861
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 2: the worst of the worst, serving liquor that could make

862
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 2: you go blind.

863
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,839
Speaker 1: Homemade ethanoll gin yep. Oh god, do you read about

864
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: the ones with people on tourists drinking. Ah? God, I

865
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 1: read those stories all the time. I don't know why.

866
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated and horrified by them.

867
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, just like basically being served it and.

868
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 1: Poison in like a fucking hostel. And yeah, it's just

869
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: so terrible. It's horrible.

870
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 2: So Tony Marino's Speakeasy is one.

871
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 1: Of the worst of the worst.

872
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,399
Speaker 2: It's a room behind an abandoned store front. They've got

873
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 2: a handful of tables, a ratty sofa, and a toilet

874
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:51,400
Speaker 2: behind a beaded curtain.

875
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 1: No, don't do that.

876
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 2: Yes they will in your face. They're like, you can't

877
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 2: tell anybody about this. We're not putting a door on

878
00:42:59,080 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 2: the toilet.

879
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 1: But in nineteen thirties, like, is that actually like luxury

880
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,399
Speaker 1: toilet because it's not out back at least it's there.

881
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 2: Yea. If it's here, we're gonna watch you do it. Well,

882
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 2: let's talk about the positives. Tony Speakeasy has a snack

883
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 2: bar that's free for his patrons that offers assorted lunch meats, bread,

884
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 2: and sardines.

885
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: I love a dive bar like buffet like drawing room

886
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 1: would have a fucking vat of hot dogs with hot

887
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:26,760
Speaker 1: dog water that' been sitting there for ten hours.

888
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 2: There was a place in San Francisco called Specs. It

889
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 2: wasn't a dive bar. It was just kind of hidden.

890
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 2: But they used to have little little those plastic baskets

891
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 2: that would have cheese and crackers that somebody cut up

892
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,320
Speaker 2: the cheese and then it would go cheese cracker, cheese cracker,

893
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 2: and you would just get drunk and sit there and

894
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 2: be like, ohmazy crackers. My favorite dive bar snacks. I mean,

895
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 2: come on, yeah, oh.

896
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 1: It's in Lialy. Yes, it's the Alley Bar. It's one

897
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:52,879
Speaker 1: of the oldest bars. Yeah. Oh that's a fucking great bar.

898
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:55,359
Speaker 2: And the sign is a pair of glasses, right, and

899
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 2: you have to know it's a bar. It's a great

900
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 2: place cheese and crackers and also you're allowed to eat

901
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,959
Speaker 2: on the toilet, so just kidding. So sandwiches, of course,

902
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 2: can't make up for the absolutely atrocious liquor that Tony

903
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 2: serves his low down dirty patrons. They're usually unruly drunk.

904
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 2: They all get into bar fights.

905
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 1: Like.

906
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 2: It is pretty bad there, and it's the kind of

907
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 2: place where very very bad ideas are born, like this

908
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 2: one in the winter of nineteen thirty two, which is

909
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 2: like right before the Great Coleression was repealed repealed. Yeah,

910
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 2: so they're all kind of doing this in this terrible place.

911
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: It's like and toda, it's over. Oops. Sorry.

912
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 2: So a group of patrons at Tony Marino Speakeasy come

913
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 2: up with a plant to make some quick cash because

914
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 2: of course everyone's broke, no one can pay their bills,

915
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 2: completely desperate. The richest of the rich are throwing themselves

916
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 2: out of windows.

917
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 1: You know.

918
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 2: Middle class people are now super poor. Everyone's in a breadline,

919
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,959
Speaker 2: like really rough. Everyone needs to make quick cash. And

920
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 2: they decide they can do this with a plan about

921
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 2: and at they expense of one.

922
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 1: Of the speakeasy's regulars.

923
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,919
Speaker 2: This mark is a man named Michael Mulloy, who's been

924
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 2: since described as quote a biological wonder. This is the

925
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 2: story of the unkillable Mike Molloy.

926
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 1: My god.

927
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 2: So the sources man used for this story are the

928
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 2: book on the House by Simon Reid, a twenty twenty

929
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 2: episode of Criminal, and a twenty twelve Smithsonian Magazine article

930
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 2: by Abbott Kaylor. The rest of the sources are in

931
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 2: our show notes. Okay, let's start with the roughly estimated

932
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 2: sixty year old Michael mLOY. Of course, he has a

933
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 2: very murky personal history. It's believed that he's an immigrant

934
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 2: from Ireland immigrated to New York City. He doesn't seem

935
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,839
Speaker 2: to have family, he doesn't seem to have friends. In

936
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 2: this book on the House, author Simon Read quotes a

937
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,360
Speaker 2: district attorney from back then who says, quote, I cannot

938
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 2: prove much to you about Michael mulloy, who he was

939
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 2: or where he came from. Moloy is to me an unknown.

940
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 2: He was a derelict, hanging out in speakeasies, doing odd

941
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 2: jobs for a bit of food or shelter, probably never

942
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 2: on salary, and always working for drinks when he could

943
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 2: get them. So the one thing we do know about

944
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,799
Speaker 2: Michael is he is a raging alcoholic and he's a

945
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 2: staple at Tony's Speakeasy. He's always there, typically getting so

946
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 2: drunk on cheap whiskey and gin. He usually ends up

947
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 2: at the end of the night slumped on the bar,

948
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 2: like passed out. There are other regulars at Tony Marina's

949
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 2: speakeasy who see Michael do this night after night, like

950
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:38,359
Speaker 2: twenty four year old undertaker Francis Pasqua and twenty nine

951
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:42,919
Speaker 2: year old grocer Daniel Kreuzberg. So on one night late

952
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,720
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty two, these two men along with Tony Marino,

953
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:50,720
Speaker 2: the owner, they get talking about their money troubles, and

954
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,359
Speaker 2: one of them pitches a diabolical idea, we should kill

955
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 2: Michael mLOY and split the payout on his life insurance.

956
00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 1: Well, he's there.

957
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:03,359
Speaker 2: Sleeping, yeah, as they're leaning on his back because he's

958
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:03,879
Speaker 2: passed out.

959
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 1: Okay.

960
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 2: And the person who pitched this idea was Tony, and

961
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 2: that's because he'd done it before. So we're talking about

962
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 2: the thirties in like New York City, tough stuff, people

963
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 2: going through it, people like surviving by any means necessary.

964
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 2: The year before, Tony started an affair with a woman

965
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 2: named Mabel Carlson, who herself was down on her luck.

966
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,799
Speaker 2: We don't know how old she was. He convinced her

967
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,399
Speaker 2: to take out a life insurance policy and name him

968
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 2: as the beneficiary, and, as author Abbot Kaylor reports, he

969
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 2: quote force fed her alcohol, stripped off her clothing, doused

970
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:44,400
Speaker 2: the sheets and mattress with ice water, and pushed the

971
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 2: bed beneath an open window. So Mabel died extensively of

972
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:52,879
Speaker 2: exposure and alcohol overdose, but her official cause of death

973
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 2: was listed as pneumonia, suggesting she died a natural death,

974
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 2: and Tony collected that payout, no questions asked.

975
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 1: Right, this is just a.

976
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,320
Speaker 2: Lady can't take care of herself. She left the window

977
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 2: open because she's a drunk. That's awful, Yeah, And it's

978
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 2: also awful because Tony's running this speakeasy with this shitty

979
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 2: liquor and basically going, well, who of these people that

980
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 2: I am serving this liquor too can we take advantage

981
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 2: of because they're addicted to it. So this is the

982
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:25,840
Speaker 2: idea Tony pitches to these two guys, and they decide

983
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 2: to make a plan. The plan is, let's do the

984
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,720
Speaker 2: exact same thing to Michael malloy. Anyone can see Michael's

985
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 2: not a healthy man. He is always drunk. He's lived

986
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 2: a very hard, clearly and very lonely life, doesn't have

987
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 2: a job or a permanent home, and he basically lives

988
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 2: on the sardine sandwiches he makes at the speakeasy's barcart,

989
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 2: which actually is a real argument for tinned fish. Yeah,

990
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 2: because it's you've got those oils, you've got those vitamins.

991
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 2: But he also drinks an ungodly amount of very cheap alcohol,

992
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:01,359
Speaker 2: and so they probably just rationalize killing him, like, oh,

993
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 2: it's almost better for him, look at his terrible life.

994
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:08,920
Speaker 2: So basically, Francis Daniel and Tony they just ask Michael

995
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 2: molloy if they can take out a life insurance policy

996
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 2: on him. It's unclear if Michael is suspicious in any

997
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 2: way or if he's just blackout drunk, but he basically.

998
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 1: Says sure, go ahead, okay.

999
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:24,280
Speaker 2: So Francis Pasqua, the undertaker, sets up meetings with different

1000
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 2: insurance agents and he brings Michael with him. So it's like,

1001
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 2: I need to set up a thing for this guy.

1002
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,800
Speaker 2: The insurers all smell a rat and they all refuse

1003
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 2: to issue any policies.

1004
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:39,280
Speaker 1: Well, it's also like, why would we give a policy

1005
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 1: to someone who isn't a life insurance policy is to

1006
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,880
Speaker 1: get someone money when they're like a person who's making money,

1007
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,319
Speaker 1: yes size, yes, for the family, not just to cover

1008
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 1: the bills as unless someone died, I get money?

1009
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 2: Can I get this guy? And they're just like no, thanks, right,

1010
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 2: So Francis Daniel and Tony have to rework the plan.

1011
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 2: They just they're going to set up more meetings with

1012
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 2: new insurance agents. This time they're going to leave Michael

1013
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,720
Speaker 2: Molloy at the bar and they're going to get a friend,

1014
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,400
Speaker 2: a friend of Francis's who they falsely claim is a

1015
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 2: florist named Nicholas Mellory to go. So it takes about

1016
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 2: five months, but Francis finally finds a few insurance agents

1017
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 2: who are willing to work with him. He gets three

1018
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 2: policies taken out on this Nicholas Mellory, who again is

1019
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 2: not real. Two of them are with Prudential Life Insurance,

1020
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 2: ones with Metropolitan Life Insurance, and if all goes according

1021
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:36,399
Speaker 2: to plan, the three men will have around thirty five

1022
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 2: hundred dollars to split between them.

1023
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:43,359
Speaker 1: In nineteen thirty two. How much thirty three would you say?

1024
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 2: Thirty five hundred dollars.

1025
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 1: I'm going to go eleven thousand, eighty three years shit.

1026
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 2: Yes, So maybe it's because for them it's so much money.

1027
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 2: They then pull in another co conspirator. It's Tony's twenty

1028
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 2: eight year old bartender, Joseph Murphy, who is willing to

1029
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 2: falsely state that he himself is Nicholas Mellory's next of

1030
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 2: kin when they have to identify the body, so they

1031
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 2: just start pulling people in on the plan. All these

1032
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,319
Speaker 2: men get together and they start having to discuss how

1033
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 2: are we going to kill Michael mlloy. They decide the

1034
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:21,800
Speaker 2: cleanest option is to give him an open bar tab

1035
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 2: and let him drink himself to death, and then once

1036
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 2: he's dead, they slip the fake id into his pocket

1037
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 2: that says he's Nicholas Mellory, and then Joseph Murphy goes

1038
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 2: identifies him as next of kin and they get their

1039
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 2: life insurance money. When Tony Marino offers molloy unlimited drinks

1040
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 2: at the speakeasy, he is over the moon, of course,

1041
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:44,759
Speaker 2: again not at all suspicious. The first day of his

1042
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:48,760
Speaker 2: open tab, he drinks an insane amount of liquor, enough

1043
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 2: that should incapacitate him, if not outright kill him. He

1044
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 2: just goes for it and he doesn't die. He doesn't

1045
00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 2: even pass out. He dounce his drinks one after the

1046
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 2: other like it's nothing, and he just eventually says good

1047
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 2: night and walks out of the bar.

1048
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 1: Oh my god, the four men, it's now four men.

1049
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 2: They are stunned Michael comes back the next day, He's like,

1050
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 2: it's open barbed open tab for me.

1051
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 1: He does it again. He imagined the hangover of shitty

1052
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:17,879
Speaker 1: liquor like a lot of it.

1053
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:20,360
Speaker 2: Can you imagine being in a place where the hangover

1054
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 2: doesn't matter anymore, Like.

1055
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 1: It's just like drink through it.

1056
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, probably never stop being drunk, just keep going.

1057
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 1: I've done that.

1058
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 2: The next day he does it again. He binges this

1059
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 2: insane amount of liquor, says thanks everybody, good night, leaves. No,

1060
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 2: nothing happens. Then when he returns the next day, he

1061
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 2: only puts his glass down to walk over to the

1062
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 2: snack cart and make himself a sardine sandwich. Then the

1063
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 2: day after that, he walks into tony speakeasy and announces, quote, boy,

1064
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 2: ain't I got a thirst? So he's just stoked. It's

1065
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:01,800
Speaker 2: all positive and this is speaks to the power of

1066
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 2: positive thinking. If you're enjoying yourself, you know, anything as possible. Yeah, obviously, Francis, Daniel,

1067
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:12,440
Speaker 2: Tony and Joseph need a new plan, and they decide

1068
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:15,799
Speaker 2: they're just going to swap out Michael's drinks with methanol

1069
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 2: wood alcohol, which you were talking about before. It's the

1070
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 2: kind that's used as paint thinner.

1071
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, right right, yeah.

1072
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 2: So of course it's not fit for human consumption, and

1073
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 2: in large quantities it could blind you or kill you.

1074
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:32,839
Speaker 2: And that's what they used to make bathtub gin with.

1075
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 2: They would mix real gin with that to kind of

1076
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:37,359
Speaker 2: be the like cut it with it.

1077
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, like the baby aspirin and the cocaine kind.

1078
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:43,680
Speaker 2: So the bartender, Joseph, goes out and he buys a

1079
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:46,360
Speaker 2: few cans of wood alcohol at the paint shop for

1080
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:49,440
Speaker 2: ten cents of pop. Michael comes back into the bar.

1081
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 2: Joseph starts by serving him real shots of liquor, but

1082
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:57,160
Speaker 2: by shots two, three, four and so on, it's just

1083
00:53:57,239 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 2: straight wood grain alcohol. Doesn't even seem to notice. He

1084
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 2: downs several drinks without so much as a shutter, and

1085
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:09,239
Speaker 2: then he keeps ordering more and more and more. They

1086
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 2: do take a toll, though he eventually passes out. He

1087
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:15,840
Speaker 2: falls to the ground. Francis is sitting at a table

1088
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:18,799
Speaker 2: watching all of this. He walks over when Michael's body

1089
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:22,280
Speaker 2: hits the ground. He checks his pulse, he checks his breathing.

1090
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:25,759
Speaker 2: They're both slow and labored. So the guys just wait

1091
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:28,400
Speaker 2: and they stand there staring at him, thinking he's dying.

1092
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 2: But then Michael starts snoring, so he wakes up a

1093
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:34,480
Speaker 2: few hours later and asks for another drink.

1094
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:36,800
Speaker 1: Oh god, poor guy.

1095
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:41,280
Speaker 2: So the men realize we need a new plan. Francis,

1096
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:43,480
Speaker 2: who's the undertaker, thinks back to a body that he

1097
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 2: handled once of a man who had died after eating

1098
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 2: bad oysters while drinking wood alcohol, and so the guys

1099
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:53,960
Speaker 2: try to replicate this death by serving Michael a plate

1100
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 2: of oysters that have been marinating in straight methanol. Eh. Gross, yeah,

1101
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 2: obbles them up and ask for more. Fuck he thinks

1102
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 2: they're great. At this point, Francis, Daniel, Tony, and Joseph

1103
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 2: are getting mad. They're like, this man is They basically

1104
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 2: become kind of sadistic. One afternoon, they serve a very

1105
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:16,880
Speaker 2: drunk Michael a sardine sandwich packed with carpet tacks and

1106
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 2: broken glass what thinking if he's not noticing the wood

1107
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:22,960
Speaker 2: grain alcohol, then maybe he'll just eat this.

1108
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:27,279
Speaker 1: Oh my god's And then desperation. It's yeah, they're they

1109
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:28,640
Speaker 1: are desperate, what the fuck?

1110
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:30,719
Speaker 2: And they're like, okay, he'll eat this, He'll tear up

1111
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 2: his organs. Michael eats it without complaint. Joseph will later

1112
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:38,839
Speaker 2: say that Michael quote ate it and liked it. By

1113
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 2: this point, the men are at a loss, and it

1114
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 2: seems like they're pretty vocal about this frustration because they

1115
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 2: start pulling more and more co conspirators into the plan.

1116
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 2: Most of these guys are shady neighborhood types. They're not

1117
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:55,440
Speaker 2: particularly bright, they have petty criminal backgrounds, and it includes

1118
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:59,279
Speaker 2: a guy named Johnny McNally. Another's named Joseph Maglioni who

1119
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 2: goes by the nickname Tenure because he has an artificial ear.

1120
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:05,759
Speaker 1: So what we're going to get for our ten year anniversary?

1121
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 1: Oh a ear? I would love a tenure. Thank you, Georgia,

1122
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 1: don't ruin our surprise.

1123
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:14,760
Speaker 2: Oh you fit it right onto your old ear because

1124
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:18,440
Speaker 2: he has an artificial ear. Another name tough Tony Bistoni

1125
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 2: because he's super nice to everybody. That's a joke, because

1126
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:26,280
Speaker 2: he's probably pretty tough, okay, And all together these guys

1127
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:29,320
Speaker 2: they'll eventually be dubbed the Murder Trust in the press,

1128
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:32,360
Speaker 2: which for simplicity, we can call them now so I

1129
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 2: don't have to name every single guy every time. So

1130
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 2: one night in December of nineteen thirty two, the Murder

1131
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:40,800
Speaker 2: Trust gets together to figure out how to kill Michael

1132
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 2: molloy once and for all. They can't keep doing what

1133
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:47,279
Speaker 2: they're doing. The drinking for free is costing Tony and

1134
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:49,759
Speaker 2: his speakeasy a lot of money that he doesn't have

1135
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 2: to spare on top of all the other costs like

1136
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:56,440
Speaker 2: the wood, alcohol, the oysters. And also a month has

1137
00:56:56,520 --> 00:57:00,120
Speaker 2: passed since they took out the life insurance policies, so

1138
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:02,279
Speaker 2: now the first premium payment are dead.

1139
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:03,520
Speaker 1: They're spending money on this.

1140
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:06,960
Speaker 2: They're spending a lot of money that nobody has. It's

1141
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 2: like the problem starts that we don't have any money,

1142
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 2: so now it's like chasing good money after bad. Figuring

1143
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 2: out how to move forward isn't easy though, because now

1144
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:22,439
Speaker 2: there's eight men pitching ideas and it's chaos, and it's

1145
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:24,760
Speaker 2: chaos filled with very very dumb.

1146
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:28,040
Speaker 1: Ideas like a fucking sardine sand and a.

1147
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:30,800
Speaker 2: Sardine sandwich was like one of the good ones that

1148
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 2: made it all the way to production. So at one

1149
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:37,960
Speaker 2: point one of the men suggest they shoot Michael, but

1150
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:40,440
Speaker 2: then he's reminded that it needs to look like a

1151
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 2: natural death, so they get the payout right, So once

1152
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:46,800
Speaker 2: again in natural shooting, just a very natural one. Look,

1153
00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:50,400
Speaker 2: it's natural here in New York City. Once again, it's

1154
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 2: Francis Pasqua who decides what route they'll take. The men

1155
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 2: basically look back to how Tony killed Mabel Carlson. They

1156
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 2: get him drunk, black blacks out, throw him into the car.

1157
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:04,040
Speaker 2: They get him out, They throw him into the park,

1158
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 2: strip him down, put him on a park bench, dump

1159
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:12,360
Speaker 2: water all over him, and leave. The next morning, none

1160
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 2: other than Michael mulloy shows up at Tony Marino speakeasy.

1161
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:17,960
Speaker 2: Oh my god, he's a little worse for wear. He

1162
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:20,920
Speaker 2: is very cold, and he can't remember how he wound

1163
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 2: up outside the night before, but he's basically fine. The

1164
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:29,600
Speaker 2: Murder Trust regroups again and they decide they're going to

1165
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 2: run Michael over with a car. This time, they're going

1166
00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:34,520
Speaker 2: to try to make it look like a hid and run.

1167
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:39,040
Speaker 2: So they pull in yet another co conspirator, a twenty

1168
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:42,120
Speaker 2: four year old cab driver named Harry Green, who agrees

1169
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:44,400
Speaker 2: to do the job for one hundred and fifty dollars,

1170
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 2: which is worth how much in today's money, one thousand,

1171
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:50,040
Speaker 2: thirty seven hundred.

1172
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 1: You say that as if I'm anywhere close appreciation I'm

1173
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:55,720
Speaker 1: just trying to support you.

1174
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:57,800
Speaker 2: I appreciate it because I love this game.

1175
00:58:57,920 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 1: I hate it. I never even close.

1176
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 2: So with this speakeasy, Joseph gets Michael blackout drunk again.

1177
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:08,280
Speaker 2: Then some of the Murder Trust guys take Michael's body

1178
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:11,360
Speaker 2: to a nearby road where there's not a lot of traffic.

1179
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 2: They put of Nicholas Mellory fake ID card in his pocket,

1180
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:18,120
Speaker 2: lay him down on the road, and Harry Green hits

1181
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:22,000
Speaker 2: Michael with the taxi before reversing backwards over the body.

1182
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:24,000
Speaker 1: Harry and the Murder.

1183
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:27,520
Speaker 2: Trusts men flee the scene. The next morning, they pour

1184
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 2: over that day's newspaper. They're looking for the reports of

1185
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:35,000
Speaker 2: a fatal hit and run. Nothing's there. Joseph Murphy, who

1186
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:37,640
Speaker 2: is supposed to be the one that poses as Nicholas

1187
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 2: Mellory's next of kin, starts calling around to local hospitals

1188
00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:45,440
Speaker 2: and Morgu's asking if anyone has seen his missing brother Nicholas.

1189
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 2: No one matches the name or description, So now the

1190
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:51,919
Speaker 2: Murder Trust guys are losing it because they think they've

1191
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:55,200
Speaker 2: finally done it. They have no proof of Nicholas Mellory's

1192
00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:58,200
Speaker 2: death to show their insurers, which means they can't claim

1193
00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 2: the payout, so they're like stuck in this weird middle realm,

1194
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:04,200
Speaker 2: a limbo.

1195
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:04,880
Speaker 1: Some might say.

1196
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:08,480
Speaker 2: And as they're freaking out about what they're going to do,

1197
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:11,440
Speaker 2: they start talking about should they just get rid of

1198
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:15,120
Speaker 2: this whole idea about Michael malloy and just kill a

1199
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:18,080
Speaker 2: random drunk who happens to walk into the speakeasy and

1200
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:21,800
Speaker 2: just use that body as a necklace mellary. But five

1201
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:24,680
Speaker 2: days after running Michael over and before they can make

1202
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:27,880
Speaker 2: good on the new plan, Michael Waltz is into Tony's speakeasy,

1203
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:30,520
Speaker 2: limping and bandaged, but ready for a drink.

1204
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:33,920
Speaker 1: It's like, I know not everyone should pro create, you know,

1205
01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 1: like me, but this guy like should past those Jews

1206
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:41,440
Speaker 1: on superhuman? You're superhuman?

1207
01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:45,000
Speaker 2: And also what a great attitude, truly, what a.

1208
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:47,920
Speaker 1: Kind of price. I try again and go see my friends. Yeah,

1209
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:48,959
Speaker 1: so sad.

1210
01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 2: Incredibly, not long after being run over, Michael was discovered

1211
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:56,720
Speaker 2: by a cop oh he was still clinging to life,

1212
01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:58,960
Speaker 2: lying in a nearby ditch. He was taken to a

1213
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:02,080
Speaker 2: hospital where he was diagnosed with a concussion of fractured

1214
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 2: skull and a fractured shoulder. After he's stabilized and discharged.

1215
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:10,919
Speaker 2: He came straight back to Tony's, still completely unaware that

1216
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:12,400
Speaker 2: these were the people that did it.

1217
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:15,240
Speaker 1: Poor guy like go to a new bar. Oh, he's like,

1218
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:15,920
Speaker 1: stop drinking.

1219
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:20,440
Speaker 2: Why there's sandwiches, sandwiches and free drinks and he has

1220
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:24,000
Speaker 2: absolutely no memory of being hit by a car. Sure,

1221
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:27,400
Speaker 2: I'm sorry to say. Upside of being a drunk. Yeah,

1222
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 2: those details, don't you know what it is?

1223
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 1: Though?

1224
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 2: They come later in the night to come back. Yeah,

1225
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:35,800
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, you're like laying there like, wait,

1226
01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 2: what you've never had that where they come as like

1227
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:39,640
Speaker 2: weird little.

1228
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:43,360
Speaker 1: Fire blackcouts are blacked out for life. That's nice. Yeah,

1229
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 1: it is blacked out for life.

1230
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 2: I had one where like the next day, I was like,

1231
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:49,040
Speaker 2: that was so fun at the bar last night. And

1232
01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:51,560
Speaker 2: then it was like it looked like a polaroid picture

1233
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 2: of this guy that I liked, going like this, oh,

1234
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:58,320
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh no, I tried to kiss him.

1235
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:00,919
Speaker 1: I tried to kiss him and he was like no, no, no,

1236
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:05,240
Speaker 1: oh God, like slowly like a polaroid slowly developing in

1237
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:06,040
Speaker 1: front of your face.

1238
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:10,520
Speaker 2: Wait faces, why is that look on his fit?

1239
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:14,360
Speaker 1: No? Mineor gone? Thank fucking god tel Vince tells them

1240
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:16,280
Speaker 1: to me, and I'm like, don't talk to me about those.

1241
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:18,800
Speaker 1: Now it's his fault. It's his fault. You talked to me.

1242
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:21,560
Speaker 1: I did not. No, I didn't. No, I didn't. That's

1243
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 1: not true. Okay.

1244
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:26,240
Speaker 2: So now the Murder Trust guys are in deep. They

1245
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:29,400
Speaker 2: have insurance premiums due, and now they have a personal

1246
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:32,840
Speaker 2: extra grind with Michael mulloy because they're that kind of guy.

1247
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:34,520
Speaker 1: So they pivot again.

1248
01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:38,520
Speaker 2: They decide to rent out an apartment in Nicholas Mellory's name,

1249
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:42,920
Speaker 2: where basically it's a few blocks from the speakeasy. Of

1250
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:48,160
Speaker 2: course it has gas nozzles, gas hookups for the lighting fixtures.

1251
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:51,800
Speaker 2: On February twenty third, nineteen thirty three, which is three

1252
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:56,040
Speaker 2: months into this whole ordeal, they give Michael malloy would

1253
01:02:56,160 --> 01:02:59,760
Speaker 2: alcohol at the speakeasy until he blacks out. They carry

1254
01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:03,320
Speaker 2: him to this apartment, lock him inside, open up those

1255
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:07,560
Speaker 2: gas nozzles, and this is what finally kills Michael mulloy.

1256
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:11,680
Speaker 2: When they go back to make sure he's dead, Francis

1257
01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:15,919
Speaker 2: Pasqua asks a specific Bronx doctor who he knows through

1258
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:18,480
Speaker 2: his business as an undertaker, to show up at the

1259
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:23,200
Speaker 2: apartment and claim Michael, who is now Necklace Mellory, has

1260
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:26,800
Speaker 2: died of pneumonia, and in exchange for that, Francis promises

1261
01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:30,160
Speaker 2: this doctor one hundred dollars of the increasingly spoken for

1262
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:31,600
Speaker 2: insurance payout.

1263
01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:34,320
Speaker 1: Twenty four hundred. Yeah, that was pretty close.

1264
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:38,520
Speaker 2: But just one day after murdering Michael Mulloy, the Murder

1265
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:41,600
Speaker 2: Trust guys bury his body in a cheap box in

1266
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:45,040
Speaker 2: a pauper's grave. A day after that, Francis shows up

1267
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 2: to the respective insurance office asking for the payout. Metropolitan

1268
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:53,720
Speaker 2: Life gives him eight hundred dollars, which is.

1269
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:57,480
Speaker 1: Four five seven twenty thousand, yes, twenty thoushion.

1270
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:04,520
Speaker 2: Five twenty thousand in today's money. But the prudential agents

1271
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:06,160
Speaker 2: are extremely.

1272
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:09,080
Speaker 1: Suspicious, like they care more than the cops do about this.

1273
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:11,080
Speaker 1: You know, they have literally more to lose.

1274
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:14,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all about money, baby, and they want to

1275
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:17,840
Speaker 2: see the body, so Francis tells them that won't be possible.

1276
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:21,480
Speaker 2: Nicholas Mellory has already been buried. So now the insurers

1277
01:04:21,520 --> 01:04:24,880
Speaker 2: are You're launching an investigation. So this is very bad

1278
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:28,640
Speaker 2: news for the Murder Trust, of course, but they internally

1279
01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:32,640
Speaker 2: are having problems. They only have eight hundred dollars from

1280
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:37,160
Speaker 2: Metropolitan that they're divving up among ten people at this point,

1281
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:42,040
Speaker 2: and that isn't going well. They're fighting, some people are

1282
01:04:42,120 --> 01:04:45,040
Speaker 2: demanding more money than others. The whole thing is descending

1283
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:49,800
Speaker 2: into serious chaos, and of course it bubbles over into

1284
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:54,320
Speaker 2: physical violence. Joseph Maglioni whips out a gun and shoots

1285
01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:58,280
Speaker 2: tough Tony Bistoni in the speakeasy, in his speakeasy, in

1286
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:01,760
Speaker 2: the speak easy yeay, no, it's not his speakeasy, No.

1287
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:03,840
Speaker 1: I no, no, I mean like he shoots him in the speakeasy.

1288
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:06,600
Speaker 1: Where's it on your body? You know, like the bread.

1289
01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:10,200
Speaker 2: Basket, it's the soft room or whatever the British call it.

1290
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 2: When the cops arrive, they arrest Maglioni, but they also

1291
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:17,720
Speaker 2: take Joseph Murphy into custody as a material witness to

1292
01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:22,000
Speaker 2: tough Tony's murderer. Oh Tony dies, tough Tony does so.

1293
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:25,520
Speaker 2: At the time, these cops are oblivious that these guys

1294
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:27,920
Speaker 2: are wrapped up in the murder of Michael mLOY. They

1295
01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:31,520
Speaker 2: don't even know who Michael mulloy is yet, but they

1296
01:05:31,560 --> 01:05:34,680
Speaker 2: start chatting with regulars at the speakeasy while investigating the

1297
01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:39,280
Speaker 2: tough Tony shooting, and those interviewees start to tell them

1298
01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:42,880
Speaker 2: everything because this is just a room full of drunks

1299
01:05:43,120 --> 01:05:46,120
Speaker 2: eating sandwiches and going to the.

1300
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:49,280
Speaker 1: Going to the bathroom behind a curtain of bead curtain,

1301
01:05:50,200 --> 01:05:53,479
Speaker 1: definitely not washing their hands afterwards. No, no, no where.

1302
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:57,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, the toilet, Oh no, yeah, it's a room full

1303
01:05:57,440 --> 01:05:58,160
Speaker 2: of drunks.

1304
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:00,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's rough.

1305
01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:03,640
Speaker 2: So it turns out these witnesses know so much because

1306
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:07,120
Speaker 2: they've either overhearned these guys talking at the bar because

1307
01:06:07,120 --> 01:06:11,880
Speaker 2: when you're drunk, you're too loud, huh. Or they were

1308
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:16,320
Speaker 2: approached about joining the conspiracy by the Murder Trust but

1309
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:18,959
Speaker 2: they weren't interested, or maybe they were just a drunk

1310
01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:20,680
Speaker 2: that had some ethics and we're like, no, I don't,

1311
01:06:20,720 --> 01:06:21,200
Speaker 2: I don't want to.

1312
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:23,000
Speaker 1: I don't want to kill anybody. I just want to

1313
01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:24,840
Speaker 1: drink at a bar, thank you. I just want to

1314
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:27,520
Speaker 1: fucking starting sandwich. Yeah, do you mind? God? But then

1315
01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:29,800
Speaker 1: they kept going to that bar like that's weird.

1316
01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:33,240
Speaker 2: There weren't that many. It was like they had you

1317
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:35,000
Speaker 2: had to find one to go.

1318
01:06:34,920 --> 01:06:37,360
Speaker 1: To, you had to let you. Yeah you're okay, I

1319
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:37,800
Speaker 1: hear you.

1320
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:39,920
Speaker 2: You had to be into going to the bathroom in public.

1321
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:45,120
Speaker 2: My grandma had a bearded curtain in between her kitchen

1322
01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:48,160
Speaker 2: and like the living room. Wow, and there was it

1323
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:50,640
Speaker 2: was like the beginning of my days of loving.

1324
01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:53,840
Speaker 1: I was go through it. Be like it just felt

1325
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:56,560
Speaker 1: so like a fucking like you were in stage. Yes,

1326
01:06:56,760 --> 01:06:57,680
Speaker 1: like glamorous action.

1327
01:06:58,440 --> 01:07:00,720
Speaker 2: So so just me picturing that when it was like

1328
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:04,840
Speaker 2: wait what just hi, everybody, I went to the bathroom. Also,

1329
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:08,520
Speaker 2: could you imagine what it smelled like in this fact.

1330
01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:11,840
Speaker 1: It's about the handwashing thing. Handwashing part of that no

1331
01:07:12,040 --> 01:07:17,680
Speaker 1: door sardine smell of old drunk person's piss was and

1332
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:21,480
Speaker 1: like the aim had to be so bad, No, the aim.

1333
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:25,120
Speaker 2: I mean, okay, let me read this paper.

1334
01:07:25,320 --> 01:07:27,600
Speaker 1: You please talk about smells.

1335
01:07:27,640 --> 01:07:30,120
Speaker 2: One witness knows the ins and outs of all these

1336
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:33,080
Speaker 2: plans so well simply from hanging out there.

1337
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:34,680
Speaker 1: He can point.

1338
01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:38,000
Speaker 2: Officers to the exact spot where Michael mulloy was buried. Wow,

1339
01:07:38,120 --> 01:07:41,520
Speaker 2: just from overhearing it so in may literally, seriously, if

1340
01:07:41,560 --> 01:07:44,720
Speaker 2: you do anything in this life, please keep your voice up,

1341
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:48,120
Speaker 2: just truly if you had got to talk whisper, Yeah,

1342
01:07:48,160 --> 01:07:48,800
Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong.

1343
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:51,200
Speaker 1: That's always listening, that's what you need to assume at

1344
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:54,120
Speaker 1: all times? Why not like here, like here, right now.

1345
01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:56,640
Speaker 2: It's as if microphones are on you at all times.

1346
01:07:57,040 --> 01:07:57,360
Speaker 1: Okay.

1347
01:07:57,760 --> 01:07:59,840
Speaker 2: In May nineteen thirty three, which is a month or

1348
01:07:59,840 --> 01:08:03,200
Speaker 2: so after Michael was killed, his body is exhumed and

1349
01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:07,000
Speaker 2: a pathologist determines that he has died of carbon monoxide poisoning,

1350
01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:11,080
Speaker 2: not pneumonia. At this point, investigators have also heard about

1351
01:08:11,120 --> 01:08:15,680
Speaker 2: Tony's scheme involving Mabel Carlson. Her body is exhumed, and

1352
01:08:15,720 --> 01:08:18,240
Speaker 2: while it's unclear if her cause of death is ever

1353
01:08:18,320 --> 01:08:23,439
Speaker 2: formally reclassified, investigators do establish clear similarities between her and

1354
01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:27,400
Speaker 2: Michael's cases. It doesn't seem like anyone's ever charged in

1355
01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:30,400
Speaker 2: Mabel's death. Oh woman, it's hard to suss out though.

1356
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:31,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

1357
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:35,400
Speaker 2: So by now the police have enough information to arrest

1358
01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:40,280
Speaker 2: the murder trust gang Tony Marino, Francis Pasqua, Daniel Kreuzberg,

1359
01:08:40,439 --> 01:08:44,759
Speaker 2: bartender Joseph Murphy, cabdriver Harry Green, all charged with first

1360
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:48,879
Speaker 2: degree murder. Their trials begin in October of nineteen thirty three.

1361
01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:51,599
Speaker 2: It's all wrapped up in two weeks. Most of them

1362
01:08:51,720 --> 01:08:54,639
Speaker 2: are sentenced to death, with Harry Green avoiding the death

1363
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:58,439
Speaker 2: penalty and instead going to sing sing for several years

1364
01:08:58,479 --> 01:09:00,400
Speaker 2: on a felonious assault inction.

1365
01:09:00,520 --> 01:09:01,240
Speaker 1: That's the cab driver.

1366
01:09:01,439 --> 01:09:04,080
Speaker 2: Yes, he came in like very late in the game.

1367
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:08,960
Speaker 2: So this is a horrible story that is just odd

1368
01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:13,160
Speaker 2: beating but ultimately incredibly tragic and horrible. But if there

1369
01:09:13,240 --> 01:09:16,240
Speaker 2: is a silver lining, it's the enduring legacy of Michael

1370
01:09:16,280 --> 01:09:19,200
Speaker 2: mulloy himself, because, despite the actions of the men who

1371
01:09:19,240 --> 01:09:23,200
Speaker 2: conspired to murder him and saw no value in his life,

1372
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:28,080
Speaker 2: the country at large comes to feel very differently about him. Because,

1373
01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:30,799
Speaker 2: of course, this story is so crazy, it gets national

1374
01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:34,280
Speaker 2: coverage across the United States. Readers learn of the so

1375
01:09:34,400 --> 01:09:37,840
Speaker 2: called durable barfly who just wouldn't die, and they find

1376
01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:43,040
Speaker 2: it weirdly inspiring. It's the Great depressionah, and it's like

1377
01:09:43,400 --> 01:09:46,040
Speaker 2: everything's coming at you. They come at you with everything

1378
01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:49,120
Speaker 2: you get back up. Wow, and that idea.

1379
01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:52,720
Speaker 1: Of people inspirational story yeah, yeah, oh my god.

1380
01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:57,080
Speaker 2: So over time, Michael Mulloy's name has stuck around and

1381
01:09:57,120 --> 01:10:00,280
Speaker 2: the zeitgeist, earning one colorful nickname after the the other,

1382
01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:03,760
Speaker 2: Iron Mike, the Resputant of the Bronx, and even the

1383
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:07,360
Speaker 2: man who Wouldn't die. These names might come as a

1384
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:10,400
Speaker 2: surprise to the people who bumped into Michael mulloy during

1385
01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:13,920
Speaker 2: his life, but as writer Simon Reid has put it, quote,

1386
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:17,360
Speaker 2: he arrived to the United States in obscurity and lived

1387
01:10:17,360 --> 01:10:22,080
Speaker 2: in anonymity, but through death he would achieve cult immortality.

1388
01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:25,639
Speaker 2: That's the story of the ill fated battle to murder

1389
01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:31,759
Speaker 2: Michael Mulloy. Wow, I'm that fucking nuts. Yeah, carpet tax

1390
01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:32,840
Speaker 2: and broken.

1391
01:10:32,560 --> 01:10:35,280
Speaker 1: Glass and sardines and either and.

1392
01:10:35,280 --> 01:10:38,599
Speaker 2: Sardines and still the answer is no, I will not die.

1393
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:42,240
Speaker 1: Amazing and kept a positive attitude about it too, like

1394
01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:44,920
Speaker 1: the as seems like, kept a drunken attitude about it.

1395
01:10:44,960 --> 01:10:46,080
Speaker 1: Right back into that bar.

1396
01:10:46,439 --> 01:10:50,360
Speaker 2: Open tab, I'm coming back tomorrow. I still know the password.

1397
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:55,040
Speaker 1: I still want a sandwich. That's amazing, great job, wild Wow.

1398
01:10:55,439 --> 01:10:57,840
Speaker 2: Kind of a nice inspirational way for us to start

1399
01:10:57,840 --> 01:10:59,760
Speaker 2: off twenty twenty six happen to be a little later

1400
01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:01,000
Speaker 2: in the year for other people.

1401
01:11:01,040 --> 01:11:03,880
Speaker 1: But yeah, well, you know, you can start it whenever

1402
01:11:03,920 --> 01:11:06,360
Speaker 1: you want, like dry January. You can start whenever you want.

1403
01:11:06,439 --> 01:11:09,559
Speaker 1: That's very true. And also Chinese newear is coming up,

1404
01:11:09,640 --> 01:11:11,439
Speaker 1: so that's right to do it. Then should we think

1405
01:11:11,439 --> 01:11:14,439
Speaker 1: of a new way to end the episodes tenure or

1406
01:11:14,479 --> 01:11:16,439
Speaker 1: twenty twenty six or like, what do you think? Yes?

1407
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:20,839
Speaker 1: All right, well come back next week, you guys, because

1408
01:11:21,080 --> 01:11:23,080
Speaker 1: the ten year anniversaryate is going to be full of surprises.

1409
01:11:23,080 --> 01:11:24,360
Speaker 1: I'm gonna wear tin boil.

1410
01:11:24,360 --> 01:11:28,120
Speaker 2: Yes, tinfoil dresses, briefcases.

1411
01:11:28,960 --> 01:11:29,599
Speaker 1: Do you have one?

1412
01:11:29,840 --> 01:11:32,559
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know if it qualifies because I

1413
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:34,439
Speaker 2: can't remember. Did we say we had to get them

1414
01:11:34,439 --> 01:11:35,200
Speaker 2: at thrift stores?

1415
01:11:35,400 --> 01:11:38,040
Speaker 1: No, but they're vintage. I think we did, But who

1416
01:11:38,120 --> 01:11:40,479
Speaker 1: fucking cares at this point. I got mine at Marshall's.

1417
01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:43,519
Speaker 1: That's all I'm saying. Oh, okay, so how are we

1418
01:11:43,560 --> 01:11:46,080
Speaker 1: doing this? We're just presenting each other with, hey, look

1419
01:11:46,400 --> 01:11:46,880
Speaker 1: here's my.

1420
01:11:47,200 --> 01:11:49,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess we have to figure out the whole idea.

1421
01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:51,920
Speaker 2: We talked about it so long ago. To me, it

1422
01:11:51,960 --> 01:11:54,200
Speaker 2: feels like we literally talked about this in the summertime.

1423
01:11:54,320 --> 01:11:57,320
Speaker 1: No, we did before that, probably before that. If I

1424
01:11:57,360 --> 01:11:59,240
Speaker 1: had a uterus last time we talked about this. That's

1425
01:11:59,240 --> 01:12:03,880
Speaker 1: how fucking long it's been. What do you which? How

1426
01:12:03,920 --> 01:12:06,000
Speaker 1: should we end this? Like on a positive note of

1427
01:12:06,040 --> 01:12:08,559
Speaker 1: how like do you tell us, hey, everyone, tell us

1428
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:10,400
Speaker 1: what you were doing? Oh, we were doing that? Tell

1429
01:12:10,479 --> 01:12:12,280
Speaker 1: us what you're doing ten years ago and what you're

1430
01:12:12,280 --> 01:12:13,840
Speaker 1: doing now. Oh yeah, that's right.

1431
01:12:13,880 --> 01:12:17,240
Speaker 2: We were asking people we know we have changed and

1432
01:12:17,280 --> 01:12:19,280
Speaker 2: what we have gone through and grown. There's a lot

1433
01:12:19,280 --> 01:12:21,760
Speaker 2: of people that when they write in they kind of

1434
01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:23,400
Speaker 2: tell us at the end if they have like minisod

1435
01:12:23,479 --> 01:12:25,920
Speaker 2: stories where it's like when I first started listening, I

1436
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:28,880
Speaker 2: was in college, I did this, now I'm you know,

1437
01:12:29,080 --> 01:12:32,120
Speaker 2: a doctor. Yeah we've heard or anything in between.

1438
01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:33,840
Speaker 1: We should read some of those next week or ten

1439
01:12:33,880 --> 01:12:36,120
Speaker 1: year anniversary. Yeah, and we're gonna have a special guest

1440
01:12:36,160 --> 01:12:37,800
Speaker 1: too that we won't but I'll surprise you.

1441
01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:40,400
Speaker 2: Oh yes, a very exciting special guest. So if you

1442
01:12:40,640 --> 01:12:43,120
Speaker 2: want to tell us your ten year arc of being

1443
01:12:43,200 --> 01:12:44,799
Speaker 2: a murdering no, we would love to hear.

1444
01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:46,920
Speaker 1: It, go my favorite murder at gmail dot com, or

1445
01:12:47,000 --> 01:12:50,640
Speaker 1: just comment on our Instagram or just dms on Instagram

1446
01:12:50,760 --> 01:12:51,320
Speaker 1: or you know.

1447
01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:54,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's lots of different ways to do it. Yeah,

1448
01:12:54,320 --> 01:12:55,360
Speaker 2: you can figure it.

1449
01:12:55,400 --> 01:12:57,240
Speaker 1: And oh, let's how about dress your pet up in

1450
01:12:57,320 --> 01:13:00,479
Speaker 1: tinfoil to send us photos of your head. No, stand

1451
01:13:00,520 --> 01:13:03,240
Speaker 1: against that, I will quit. You know, Elvis was so

1452
01:13:03,400 --> 01:13:06,040
Speaker 1: afraid of tinfoil that we would put it around the

1453
01:13:06,120 --> 01:13:11,440
Speaker 1: Christmas tree, so he wouldn't go climate. Yes, tinfoil and bananas.

1454
01:13:11,439 --> 01:13:14,240
Speaker 1: He hated both, so we would circle the Christmas tree

1455
01:13:14,560 --> 01:13:18,200
Speaker 1: with tinfoil and banana. That's hilarious. That's very cute. Well

1456
01:13:18,200 --> 01:13:20,080
Speaker 1: that's full circle. Yeah.

1457
01:13:20,160 --> 01:13:22,200
Speaker 2: I think we just chould doned it, stay sexy and

1458
01:13:22,360 --> 01:13:23,320
Speaker 2: don't get murder.

1459
01:13:23,439 --> 01:13:27,360
Speaker 1: It's all we can do. Really, goodbye, Elvis, Do you

1460
01:13:27,400 --> 01:13:37,200
Speaker 1: want a cookie? This has been an exactly right production.

1461
01:13:37,360 --> 01:13:40,080
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer

1462
01:13:40,160 --> 01:13:40,880
Speaker 1: is Tessa Hughes.

1463
01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:42,880
Speaker 2: Our editor is Aristotle Ascevedo.

1464
01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:45,080
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Leona Scuolacci.

1465
01:13:45,320 --> 01:13:47,920
Speaker 2: Our researchers are Mary McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

1466
01:13:48,080 --> 01:13:51,360
Speaker 1: Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail dot com.

1467
01:13:51,080 --> 01:13:53,599
Speaker 2: And follow the show on Instagram at My Favorite Murder.

1468
01:13:53,640 --> 01:13:56,519
Speaker 1: Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple

1469
01:13:56,520 --> 01:13:59,080
Speaker 1: Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

1470
01:13:58,600 --> 01:14:00,719
Speaker 2: Or you can watch us on YouTube for My Favorite

1471
01:14:00,800 --> 01:14:02,840
Speaker 2: Murder than like and subscribe.

1472
01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:10,560
Speaker 1: Good Bye, h