1 00:00:46,480 --> 00:00:51,961 Speaker 1: School of Humans. Helen Got Murder Line actively investigates cold 2 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,361 Speaker 1: case murders in an effort to raise public awareness invite 3 00:00:55,401 --> 00:00:58,761 Speaker 1: witnesses to come forward and present evidence that could potentially 4 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,961 Speaker 1: be further investigated by law enforcement. While we value insights 5 00:01:03,001 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: from family and community members, their statements should not be 6 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,961 Speaker 1: considered evidence and point to the challenges of verifying facts 7 00:01:10,041 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: inherent in cold cases. We remind listeners that everyone has 8 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. 9 00:01:17,961 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: Nothing in the podcast is intended to state or imply 10 00:01:21,041 --> 00:01:23,601 Speaker 1: that anyone who has not been convicted of a crime 11 00:01:24,121 --> 00:01:27,121 Speaker 1: is guilty of any wrongdoing. Thanks for listening. 12 00:01:29,681 --> 00:01:33,041 Speaker 2: It was around seven pm on August thirteenth, nineteen eighty one, 13 00:01:33,681 --> 00:01:36,361 Speaker 2: and thirty six year old Carol Morgan was working the 14 00:01:36,401 --> 00:01:40,401 Speaker 2: till at her corner shop at sixteen Finch Crescent in 15 00:01:40,441 --> 00:01:45,121 Speaker 2: a town called Leyton Buzzard in the County of Bedfordshire, England. 16 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 3: This was a close knit community. 17 00:01:47,401 --> 00:01:50,281 Speaker 2: Carol owned and ran the shop with her husband, thirty 18 00:01:50,321 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 2: one year old Alan Morgan, and everybody knew them. Everyone 19 00:01:55,121 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 2: in town knew and loved Carol, who was described by 20 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:02,721 Speaker 2: friends and family as warm, caring, genuine and friendly. Carol 21 00:02:02,841 --> 00:02:04,961 Speaker 2: loved the shop and the other lights of her life 22 00:02:05,001 --> 00:02:08,201 Speaker 2: were her two children from a previous marriage, fourteen year 23 00:02:08,201 --> 00:02:11,321 Speaker 2: old Dean and twelve year old Jane. On that night, 24 00:02:11,561 --> 00:02:14,081 Speaker 2: Carol was working at the shop alone. She was getting 25 00:02:14,121 --> 00:02:18,041 Speaker 2: ready for closing, which was at six pm. Her husband, Allan, 26 00:02:18,161 --> 00:02:20,001 Speaker 2: was at the movie theater in Lwton with his two 27 00:02:20,041 --> 00:02:24,361 Speaker 2: step children, Dean and Jane, but at some point someone 28 00:02:24,481 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 2: surprised Carol. Alan and the children got home at around 29 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:33,681 Speaker 2: ten ten pm. Shortly after arriving at the house, Carroll's husband, 30 00:02:33,721 --> 00:02:36,241 Speaker 2: Alan raced to a neighbor's house and asked him to 31 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:39,081 Speaker 2: come to the shop. The neighbor followed Alan into the 32 00:02:39,121 --> 00:02:43,361 Speaker 2: storeroom and saw Carol in a pool of blood. Her 33 00:02:43,401 --> 00:02:47,521 Speaker 2: body was found in the storeroom of the store. Forensic 34 00:02:47,561 --> 00:02:51,081 Speaker 2: testing revealed that Carol had been brutally beaten and stabbed 35 00:02:51,081 --> 00:02:54,081 Speaker 2: with a weapon, something like an axe or a machete, 36 00:02:54,521 --> 00:02:58,561 Speaker 2: something heavy but very sharp. She had been hit so 37 00:02:58,761 --> 00:03:02,001 Speaker 2: hard that pieces of her skull and brain matter were 38 00:03:02,041 --> 00:03:05,561 Speaker 2: on the floor. The police had no way of knowing 39 00:03:05,601 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 2: it back in nineteen eighty one, but this police investigation 40 00:03:08,881 --> 00:03:12,361 Speaker 2: would last forty three years and take a lot of 41 00:03:12,401 --> 00:03:17,441 Speaker 2: strange twists and turns, and in the end there was justice, 42 00:03:17,481 --> 00:03:21,281 Speaker 2: but it's questionable whether full justice will ever be served. 43 00:03:22,161 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 2: Who came into the store that night and hacked Carol 44 00:03:25,321 --> 00:03:31,081 Speaker 2: Morgan to death. I'm Catherine Townsend. Over the past seven 45 00:03:31,161 --> 00:03:34,441 Speaker 2: years of making my true crime podcast, Helling Gone, I've 46 00:03:34,561 --> 00:03:36,721 Speaker 2: learned that there is no such thing as a small 47 00:03:36,801 --> 00:03:40,881 Speaker 2: town where murder never happens. I've received hundreds of messages 48 00:03:40,921 --> 00:03:43,561 Speaker 2: from people all around the country asking for help with 49 00:03:43,601 --> 00:03:47,561 Speaker 2: a unsolved murder that's affected them, their families, and their communities. 50 00:03:48,081 --> 00:03:49,841 Speaker 2: If you have a case you'd like me and my 51 00:03:49,881 --> 00:03:52,201 Speaker 2: team to look into, you can reach out to us 52 00:03:52,281 --> 00:03:54,841 Speaker 2: at our Helen Gone Murder Line at six seven eight 53 00:03:55,161 --> 00:03:58,641 Speaker 2: seven four four six one four five. That's six seven 54 00:03:58,681 --> 00:04:02,321 Speaker 2: eight seven four four six one four five, or you 55 00:04:02,361 --> 00:04:05,801 Speaker 2: can send us a message on Instagram at Helen gonepod. 56 00:04:06,521 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: This is Helen Gone Murder Line. After police got to 57 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,721 Speaker 2: the scene, they found evidence that some money four hundred 58 00:04:56,721 --> 00:04:59,241 Speaker 2: and thirty five pounds to be exact, had been stolen, 59 00:04:59,841 --> 00:05:04,161 Speaker 2: along with fourteen hundred cigarettes, but police did not have 60 00:05:04,281 --> 00:05:07,081 Speaker 2: a ton of information to go on. The attack had 61 00:05:07,081 --> 00:05:11,281 Speaker 2: been extremely brutal and horrific and there were some signs 62 00:05:11,321 --> 00:05:14,601 Speaker 2: of defensive wounds on Carol's hands, so it seemed like 63 00:05:14,641 --> 00:05:18,801 Speaker 2: whatever happened had taken her completely by surprise and that 64 00:05:18,881 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 2: she had fought for her life. The UK channel ITV 65 00:05:23,921 --> 00:05:26,841 Speaker 2: made a documentary about the case called The Real Unforgotten. 66 00:05:27,361 --> 00:05:31,481 Speaker 2: This documentary followed the decades long investigation into Carroll's murder. 67 00:05:32,321 --> 00:05:35,841 Speaker 2: I highly recommend checking it out because it really is 68 00:05:35,881 --> 00:05:39,681 Speaker 2: an excellent analysis of what the police did and the 69 00:05:39,761 --> 00:05:44,521 Speaker 2: excellent detective work that was done years later. In the documentary, 70 00:05:44,881 --> 00:05:47,401 Speaker 2: they explained that the police back in nineteen eighty one 71 00:05:47,801 --> 00:05:50,921 Speaker 2: believed that the motive for the killing had been robbery, 72 00:05:50,961 --> 00:05:55,081 Speaker 2: and they focused on that theory pretty much exclusively. On 73 00:05:55,121 --> 00:05:59,361 Speaker 2: the ITV program, they showed images of diagrams of Carol's injuries. 74 00:05:59,961 --> 00:06:02,521 Speaker 2: She had been beaten to death and she had huge 75 00:06:02,521 --> 00:06:05,841 Speaker 2: cuts on her head. Whoever beat her beat her so 76 00:06:06,001 --> 00:06:09,601 Speaker 2: badly that her skull was cracked. So police theorized the 77 00:06:09,641 --> 00:06:12,201 Speaker 2: weapon had been something like an axe or a machete, 78 00:06:12,481 --> 00:06:15,841 Speaker 2: but they never found the murder weapon. They did have 79 00:06:15,881 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 2: one early lead. There was a man driving a green 80 00:06:19,001 --> 00:06:21,961 Speaker 2: car who had been spotted at a payphone box near 81 00:06:22,001 --> 00:06:26,321 Speaker 2: the shop shortly after seven pm. On the ITV documentary, 82 00:06:26,601 --> 00:06:30,081 Speaker 2: they stated when police started canvassing the area, they found 83 00:06:30,161 --> 00:06:33,681 Speaker 2: witnesses who saw this man at the phone box. One 84 00:06:33,721 --> 00:06:36,561 Speaker 2: of the witnesses worked with a police sketch artist. They 85 00:06:36,641 --> 00:06:40,361 Speaker 2: made a poster and they put them out everywhere. In 86 00:06:40,401 --> 00:06:44,241 Speaker 2: the documentary, they showed old footage of Brian Picket, the 87 00:06:44,321 --> 00:06:47,921 Speaker 2: senior investigating officer from nineteen eighty one. He was talking 88 00:06:47,961 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 2: about this stranger. He said the man was seen driving 89 00:06:50,921 --> 00:06:53,681 Speaker 2: away from the corner shop and was described as being 90 00:06:53,721 --> 00:06:57,281 Speaker 2: aged between seventeen and twenty one years old, around five 91 00:06:57,281 --> 00:06:59,361 Speaker 2: foot seven to five foot eight inches tall, with a 92 00:06:59,401 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 2: slim belld brown mousey hair and piggish style nostrils. Brian 93 00:07:05,001 --> 00:07:08,121 Speaker 2: Pickett stated that the witness saw this man holding white 94 00:07:08,241 --> 00:07:12,001 Speaker 2: plastic bags to his chest, bags that police believed at 95 00:07:12,041 --> 00:07:14,561 Speaker 2: the time were used to carry the stolen money and 96 00:07:14,601 --> 00:07:18,241 Speaker 2: cigarettes from the corner shop. So police believed the killer 97 00:07:18,281 --> 00:07:20,521 Speaker 2: had come in to rob the store and that Carol 98 00:07:20,801 --> 00:07:23,681 Speaker 2: was basically just at the wrong place at the wrong time. 99 00:07:24,761 --> 00:07:28,481 Speaker 2: Police focused their investigation almost solely on that stranger at 100 00:07:28,521 --> 00:07:31,001 Speaker 2: the phone box and the green car he was driving, 101 00:07:31,481 --> 00:07:33,601 Speaker 2: but they never found the man and they never found 102 00:07:33,641 --> 00:07:37,601 Speaker 2: the car. After that, the investigation seemed to hit a 103 00:07:37,601 --> 00:07:42,281 Speaker 2: dead end. This case terrified the local community because the 104 00:07:42,321 --> 00:07:45,361 Speaker 2: thought that someone could go in and murder someone with 105 00:07:45,441 --> 00:07:47,561 Speaker 2: an axe over such a small amount of money and 106 00:07:47,601 --> 00:07:49,841 Speaker 2: a few cigarettes was truly scary. 107 00:07:50,801 --> 00:07:53,081 Speaker 3: But there were also some local rumors spreading. 108 00:07:53,601 --> 00:07:56,721 Speaker 2: Witnesses spoke to police to voice their suspicions about someone 109 00:07:56,881 --> 00:08:01,881 Speaker 2: much closer to home, Carol's husband, Alan Morgan. So what 110 00:08:02,121 --> 00:08:05,441 Speaker 2: was going on in Carol and Allen's marriage and why 111 00:08:05,441 --> 00:08:06,321 Speaker 2: would he have any. 112 00:08:06,161 --> 00:08:07,121 Speaker 3: Reason to hurt her? 113 00:08:08,681 --> 00:08:11,961 Speaker 2: Carol Morgan was born on December twenty sixth, nineteen forty four. 114 00:08:12,441 --> 00:08:16,001 Speaker 2: She grew up in Highbury, North London. Carol was married 115 00:08:16,041 --> 00:08:16,681 Speaker 2: before Alan. 116 00:08:17,321 --> 00:08:17,961 Speaker 3: She met her. 117 00:08:17,921 --> 00:08:20,601 Speaker 2: Husband when he was sixteen, she was a year older. 118 00:08:21,241 --> 00:08:23,681 Speaker 2: Her husband later testified that they met while he was 119 00:08:23,721 --> 00:08:27,801 Speaker 2: on vacation with a friend. Carol and Richard, her first husband, 120 00:08:27,801 --> 00:08:31,161 Speaker 2: were both from London. He was from Wimbledon in West London. 121 00:08:31,481 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 2: She was from North London, so the relationship continued after 122 00:08:35,001 --> 00:08:38,481 Speaker 2: that holiday ended. They got married in nineteen sixty five 123 00:08:38,521 --> 00:08:41,441 Speaker 2: and they settled down together in Swindon. They had two children, 124 00:08:41,601 --> 00:08:44,761 Speaker 2: Jane and Ian, but like a lot of couples, they 125 00:08:44,841 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 2: drifted apart and started having problems in their relationship. Richard 126 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 2: later testified in court that he met someone else and 127 00:08:52,321 --> 00:08:55,681 Speaker 2: that that was kind of the final straw for their marriage. 128 00:08:55,721 --> 00:08:59,121 Speaker 2: He testified he left Carol to be with this other person, 129 00:08:59,601 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 2: but after the split, he said he and Carol remained close. 130 00:09:04,121 --> 00:09:07,241 Speaker 2: He said, quote, Carol was upset I was leaving, but 131 00:09:07,321 --> 00:09:11,761 Speaker 2: there was no animosity end quote. In nineteen seventy eight, 132 00:09:11,881 --> 00:09:14,201 Speaker 2: Carol was trying to meet new people. She went to 133 00:09:14,241 --> 00:09:17,121 Speaker 2: a singles group called the Gingerbread Group, and that's where 134 00:09:17,121 --> 00:09:20,401 Speaker 2: she met Allan. Allan was also divorced and had two 135 00:09:20,441 --> 00:09:23,681 Speaker 2: children from a previous marriage, but those children lived with 136 00:09:23,681 --> 00:09:27,201 Speaker 2: his ex partner. Shortly after meeting and falling in love, 137 00:09:27,841 --> 00:09:30,401 Speaker 2: Carol and Allan made plans to buy and run this 138 00:09:30,521 --> 00:09:34,721 Speaker 2: corner shop together. Carol financed the shop. They were able 139 00:09:34,761 --> 00:09:36,841 Speaker 2: to buy it because Carol had sold her house in 140 00:09:36,841 --> 00:09:39,321 Speaker 2: her divorce, so they used the share of the house 141 00:09:39,361 --> 00:09:43,481 Speaker 2: money to invest in the shop. Carol and Allan got 142 00:09:43,561 --> 00:09:47,561 Speaker 2: me married in nineteen seventy nine. It's interesting because you 143 00:09:47,721 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 2: never know what's going on behind closed doors in these relationships. 144 00:09:52,161 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 2: But years later, some members of Carroll's family, including her 145 00:09:55,321 --> 00:09:58,641 Speaker 2: sister and her niece, talked to the ITV program about 146 00:09:58,641 --> 00:10:03,281 Speaker 2: how these horrific events had changed their family forever. They 147 00:10:03,361 --> 00:10:06,601 Speaker 2: said that after Carol met Allan, she went from being 148 00:10:06,601 --> 00:10:10,401 Speaker 2: this outgoing and loving person to being pretty much completely isolated. 149 00:10:11,361 --> 00:10:14,521 Speaker 2: Her niece told ITV she believed that Alan was trying 150 00:10:14,521 --> 00:10:18,081 Speaker 2: to control Carol and manipulate her, but at the time 151 00:10:18,481 --> 00:10:21,081 Speaker 2: they had no idea how bad things were getting at 152 00:10:21,081 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 2: home behind closed doors. Local gossips said there might have 153 00:10:24,841 --> 00:10:28,041 Speaker 2: been another reason why Alan wanted Carol out of the way, 154 00:10:28,641 --> 00:10:31,641 Speaker 2: because Alan was having an affair with a woman named 155 00:10:31,641 --> 00:10:35,641 Speaker 2: Margaret Spooner, who was also married, But when it came 156 00:10:35,681 --> 00:10:39,961 Speaker 2: to Carroll's murder, Alan had this apparently airtight albi. The 157 00:10:40,081 --> 00:10:42,081 Speaker 2: night of the murder, he was at the movies with 158 00:10:42,161 --> 00:10:46,681 Speaker 2: his two step children. Carol's sun Dean told police that 159 00:10:46,761 --> 00:10:49,201 Speaker 2: on the day of the murder that Alan came home 160 00:10:49,241 --> 00:10:51,561 Speaker 2: shortly after lunch and told them they were going to 161 00:10:51,601 --> 00:10:54,961 Speaker 2: the movies that night, so he, Jane, and Allan ended 162 00:10:55,001 --> 00:10:56,961 Speaker 2: up driving to the town of Lowton to see a 163 00:10:56,961 --> 00:11:00,521 Speaker 2: double feature. Jane told police that they got to the 164 00:11:00,521 --> 00:11:03,601 Speaker 2: theater got their tickets at six twenty five pm and 165 00:11:03,641 --> 00:11:05,921 Speaker 2: that they saw Sinbad, the Eye of the Tiger and 166 00:11:05,961 --> 00:11:11,041 Speaker 2: Super Snooper and came out at ten ten pm. Police 167 00:11:11,121 --> 00:11:14,121 Speaker 2: were trying to figure out what happened while Carol was 168 00:11:14,161 --> 00:11:15,081 Speaker 2: working alone that night. 169 00:11:15,641 --> 00:11:17,481 Speaker 3: They knew that the shop closed at six. 170 00:11:17,321 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 2: Pm, but apparently some potential customers, according to the ITV show, 171 00:11:22,241 --> 00:11:24,641 Speaker 2: tried the doors at five pin fifty five pm and 172 00:11:24,681 --> 00:11:27,841 Speaker 2: couldn't open them, so it seems as though Carol might 173 00:11:27,881 --> 00:11:31,521 Speaker 2: have shut the shop a little bit early. The detectives 174 00:11:31,561 --> 00:11:34,321 Speaker 2: went back and re examined everything they thought they knew 175 00:11:34,361 --> 00:11:37,201 Speaker 2: about this case. First of all, they needed to look 176 00:11:37,241 --> 00:11:40,081 Speaker 2: into the man with the white bags, the one who 177 00:11:40,121 --> 00:11:42,921 Speaker 2: was seen near the phone box. They went back through 178 00:11:43,001 --> 00:11:45,601 Speaker 2: old witness days and found that a witness saw the 179 00:11:45,641 --> 00:11:48,081 Speaker 2: man drop the bags, pick up some coins, get into 180 00:11:48,121 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 2: the car and drive away. Then there were two more 181 00:11:51,081 --> 00:11:54,801 Speaker 2: witnesses at around seven ten pm, two women who were 182 00:11:54,841 --> 00:11:57,481 Speaker 2: walking to Bingo saw that man in the green car. 183 00:11:58,161 --> 00:12:01,441 Speaker 2: Presumably that would mean that if that man was the killer, 184 00:12:02,121 --> 00:12:04,601 Speaker 2: the man murdered Carol and what they saw was him 185 00:12:04,681 --> 00:12:05,521 Speaker 2: driving away. 186 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 3: From the scene. 187 00:12:06,681 --> 00:12:09,841 Speaker 2: But there were some other witnesses who had conflicting information. 188 00:12:10,441 --> 00:12:14,201 Speaker 2: There were witnesses who said they saw Carol. Later after closing, 189 00:12:14,961 --> 00:12:17,721 Speaker 2: two kids who knew Carol well were sitting on a 190 00:12:17,721 --> 00:12:21,401 Speaker 2: wall talking They saw Carol walking back toward the shop 191 00:12:21,561 --> 00:12:24,841 Speaker 2: with her dog. They said this happened between eight thirty 192 00:12:24,881 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 2: and nine pm. So the officer interviewed in the ITV 193 00:12:28,401 --> 00:12:32,321 Speaker 2: documentary pointed out if Carol was alive between eight thirty 194 00:12:32,361 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 2: and nine pm, that appeared to point to the man 195 00:12:35,881 --> 00:12:42,761 Speaker 2: in the green car not being the killer. In twenty eighteen, 196 00:12:43,161 --> 00:12:46,441 Speaker 2: Detective Superintendent Carl Foster was put in charge of the 197 00:12:46,441 --> 00:12:49,681 Speaker 2: cold case. Based on what he saw in that case file, 198 00:12:49,961 --> 00:12:51,801 Speaker 2: he decided to reopen the investigation. 199 00:12:52,681 --> 00:12:53,721 Speaker 3: He was convinced that. 200 00:12:53,641 --> 00:12:56,441 Speaker 2: Even if Allen had an alibi and had been elsewhere, 201 00:12:56,761 --> 00:12:59,761 Speaker 2: the evidence suggested that he may have been behind the killing. 202 00:13:01,041 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 2: The Major Crime Unit reopened the investigation into Carol's murder 203 00:13:04,601 --> 00:13:07,881 Speaker 2: in twenty nineteen, but they had a lot of problems. 204 00:13:08,321 --> 00:13:10,561 Speaker 2: For one thing, as we see in so many of 205 00:13:10,601 --> 00:13:14,321 Speaker 2: our cases, mistakes were made, a lot of evidence was 206 00:13:14,321 --> 00:13:17,401 Speaker 2: destroyed and there was no way to get it back. 207 00:13:19,201 --> 00:13:22,041 Speaker 2: Police had very little to go on except for witness 208 00:13:22,081 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 2: statements and some very old photos of the crime scene. 209 00:13:25,881 --> 00:13:27,921 Speaker 2: One of the reasons why I wanted to cover this 210 00:13:28,001 --> 00:13:31,401 Speaker 2: case in particular is because I was so inspired by the. 211 00:13:31,361 --> 00:13:34,401 Speaker 3: Work that these cold case detectives did. How they took 212 00:13:34,401 --> 00:13:35,121 Speaker 3: a case like. 213 00:13:35,161 --> 00:13:37,241 Speaker 2: So many of the ones that we see every day, 214 00:13:37,561 --> 00:13:41,321 Speaker 2: where evidence was destroyed, and yet they managed to turn 215 00:13:41,401 --> 00:13:44,281 Speaker 2: things around. I wanted to see what we could all 216 00:13:44,361 --> 00:13:48,121 Speaker 2: learn from this case. The detectives taking over in twenty 217 00:13:48,321 --> 00:13:52,081 Speaker 2: nineteen did not believe that robbery was the motive. One 218 00:13:52,081 --> 00:13:55,001 Speaker 2: of the reasons they said they believed that was because 219 00:13:55,041 --> 00:13:58,841 Speaker 2: of the brutal way that Carroll was killed. Police referred 220 00:13:58,841 --> 00:14:02,361 Speaker 2: to that beating as overkill. They believe this was personal, 221 00:14:02,641 --> 00:14:06,481 Speaker 2: not random. There were some other oddities. Most of the 222 00:14:06,521 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 2: money that had been stolen was stolen from a desk 223 00:14:09,121 --> 00:14:12,721 Speaker 2: drawer in the shop. This drawer had what Alan described 224 00:14:12,761 --> 00:14:14,881 Speaker 2: to police as a secret mechanism. 225 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:16,641 Speaker 3: It was like a trick drawer. 226 00:14:16,681 --> 00:14:19,321 Speaker 2: You had to move another drawer into position to get 227 00:14:19,321 --> 00:14:21,881 Speaker 2: it to work. Alan told the police it was like 228 00:14:21,921 --> 00:14:25,121 Speaker 2: a Chinese puzzle. He said, only he and maybe Carol 229 00:14:25,401 --> 00:14:28,801 Speaker 2: knew how that drawer worked. So how would a robber 230 00:14:28,841 --> 00:14:31,081 Speaker 2: have known how to open that drawer or to force 231 00:14:31,121 --> 00:14:33,521 Speaker 2: Carol to open it? How would the robber have even 232 00:14:33,641 --> 00:14:37,521 Speaker 2: known where the drawer was at all. Much later in court, 233 00:14:38,001 --> 00:14:41,241 Speaker 2: a prosecutor would state that the killer had inside information 234 00:14:41,681 --> 00:14:45,001 Speaker 2: before the killer came into the shop. And one of 235 00:14:45,081 --> 00:14:48,401 Speaker 2: the detectives in the ITV documentary noticed something else from 236 00:14:48,401 --> 00:14:52,001 Speaker 2: the photos, a flash of gold. Carol was wearing her 237 00:14:52,001 --> 00:14:55,841 Speaker 2: wedding ring, So the detective wondered, if robbery was really 238 00:14:55,881 --> 00:14:59,001 Speaker 2: the only motive, why was her wedding ring not pulled 239 00:14:59,041 --> 00:14:59,721 Speaker 2: off and stolen. 240 00:15:00,801 --> 00:15:02,761 Speaker 3: Police began to lean more. 241 00:15:02,561 --> 00:15:05,121 Speaker 2: And more into the theory this had not been a robbery, 242 00:15:05,161 --> 00:15:07,681 Speaker 2: this had been a staged robbery, and that the real 243 00:15:07,801 --> 00:15:12,121 Speaker 2: primary motive here was to kill Carol. The police had 244 00:15:12,161 --> 00:15:15,401 Speaker 2: a massive number of witness statements to go through, thousands 245 00:15:15,401 --> 00:15:18,721 Speaker 2: of pages, but as one of the investigators pointed out, 246 00:15:19,161 --> 00:15:22,001 Speaker 2: they had to go back to the beginning and reread everything. 247 00:15:23,241 --> 00:15:26,001 Speaker 2: One of the first people they talked to was Allan's neighbor. 248 00:15:26,601 --> 00:15:29,601 Speaker 2: He was the first person who Allan told about finding 249 00:15:29,641 --> 00:15:33,321 Speaker 2: Carroll's body, the one who first saw Carroll's body along 250 00:15:33,361 --> 00:15:37,441 Speaker 2: with Alan. The neighbor told police that Alan ran across 251 00:15:37,481 --> 00:15:39,881 Speaker 2: the street to his place and asked him to use 252 00:15:39,881 --> 00:15:42,241 Speaker 2: the phone. He said Alan seemed to be in shock 253 00:15:42,601 --> 00:15:45,561 Speaker 2: that he heard Allan tell police his address and explained 254 00:15:45,561 --> 00:15:47,921 Speaker 2: that his wife was in a pool of blood. The 255 00:15:48,001 --> 00:15:50,321 Speaker 2: neighbor went with Alan back to the shop and down 256 00:15:50,321 --> 00:15:54,081 Speaker 2: to the stock room and found Carroll there. He said 257 00:15:54,121 --> 00:15:57,321 Speaker 2: blood was spattered everywhere and it was immediately obvious that 258 00:15:57,401 --> 00:16:00,521 Speaker 2: she was dead. The neighbor said he ran out of 259 00:16:00,561 --> 00:16:03,601 Speaker 2: there and that Alan followed him. He said Alan was crying, 260 00:16:04,161 --> 00:16:06,881 Speaker 2: but that as the neighbor tried to comfort him, the 261 00:16:06,961 --> 00:16:08,761 Speaker 2: neighbor told police. 262 00:16:08,361 --> 00:16:10,681 Speaker 3: He noticed Alan seemed very composed. 263 00:16:12,081 --> 00:16:14,841 Speaker 2: Now, the detectives in the ITV series point out this 264 00:16:14,881 --> 00:16:16,281 Speaker 2: could have been a natural reaction. 265 00:16:16,681 --> 00:16:18,641 Speaker 3: People process things in different. 266 00:16:18,321 --> 00:16:22,241 Speaker 2: Ways, but the detective did ask why did Alan walk 267 00:16:22,281 --> 00:16:25,441 Speaker 2: across the street to use someone else's phone instead of 268 00:16:25,521 --> 00:16:29,081 Speaker 2: just calling from the store. This officer stated it made 269 00:16:29,161 --> 00:16:32,561 Speaker 2: him believe Alan had a reason for doing that, something 270 00:16:32,561 --> 00:16:35,321 Speaker 2: that indicated maybe he didn't want to be the one 271 00:16:35,361 --> 00:16:39,201 Speaker 2: to discover that body alone. Another piece of evidence that 272 00:16:39,281 --> 00:16:42,281 Speaker 2: detectives had was the post mortem report that was made 273 00:16:42,281 --> 00:16:45,321 Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty one. So they took that report and 274 00:16:45,401 --> 00:16:50,001 Speaker 2: went to outside experts, including a forensic pathologist. The pathologist 275 00:16:50,081 --> 00:16:53,761 Speaker 2: said Carol was killed by multiple blunt forest blows by 276 00:16:53,841 --> 00:16:57,481 Speaker 2: a very heavy object that was also sharp, heavy enough 277 00:16:57,481 --> 00:17:01,321 Speaker 2: to shatter the skull, but also sharp enough to slice. 278 00:17:01,361 --> 00:17:04,641 Speaker 2: The pathologist agreed with the investigator's theory that the wounds 279 00:17:04,681 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 2: were indicative of overkill, that the intention was to kill Carol. 280 00:17:09,321 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 2: This was a hit and Carol was the target. The 281 00:17:12,921 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 2: pathologist also said something else. There were stab wounds on 282 00:17:16,521 --> 00:17:20,481 Speaker 2: Carol's midsection that made them believe one of two things happened. 283 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,761 Speaker 2: Either there was more than one killer, or maybe the 284 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:30,161 Speaker 2: killer changed weapons midway through the attack. The pathologist also 285 00:17:30,241 --> 00:17:33,321 Speaker 2: stated that Carol had wounds on her face, wounds that 286 00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 2: the pathologists said happened after the initial attack, either around 287 00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 2: the time of death or after the time of death. 288 00:17:39,721 --> 00:17:44,241 Speaker 2: They described these as disrespect to the individual and mutilation injuries. 289 00:17:45,241 --> 00:17:48,561 Speaker 2: So police used that information to move more and more 290 00:17:48,601 --> 00:17:52,161 Speaker 2: away from the original theory. This was personal, it was 291 00:17:52,201 --> 00:17:55,761 Speaker 2: all about Carol, and the crime scene was staged. But 292 00:17:55,881 --> 00:17:58,321 Speaker 2: who would have wanted to hurt Carol because everyone in 293 00:17:58,361 --> 00:18:02,321 Speaker 2: the community seemed to love Carol. When police went back 294 00:18:02,361 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 2: through the witness statements, they found that a lot of 295 00:18:05,121 --> 00:18:10,361 Speaker 2: people were talking about Alan, and specifically Alan's behavior before. 296 00:18:10,241 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 3: And after the murder. 297 00:18:15,401 --> 00:18:18,641 Speaker 2: A few weeks after Carroll's death, Alan sold the shot. 298 00:18:18,961 --> 00:18:21,561 Speaker 2: He took his step kids and moved away from the area, 299 00:18:22,481 --> 00:18:26,881 Speaker 2: but he also made several comments to reporters. He told 300 00:18:26,921 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 2: them he was being accused of killing Carroll, that people 301 00:18:29,961 --> 00:18:32,201 Speaker 2: believed he had killed his wife, but he said it 302 00:18:32,241 --> 00:18:34,521 Speaker 2: couldn't have been him because he was in Luton at 303 00:18:34,521 --> 00:18:37,961 Speaker 2: the movies. When the reporter asked Alan why he thought 304 00:18:38,041 --> 00:18:41,241 Speaker 2: people believed that, Alan said, in his opinion, it could 305 00:18:41,321 --> 00:18:44,681 Speaker 2: be because he was, in his words, happy go lucky 306 00:18:44,921 --> 00:18:49,001 Speaker 2: and a womanizer. And when Alan left town, he didn't 307 00:18:49,041 --> 00:18:59,721 Speaker 2: just take his stepchildren. Margaret, his lover, also went with him. 308 00:19:01,201 --> 00:19:03,961 Speaker 2: Police knew about Margaret and the affair back in nineteen 309 00:19:04,001 --> 00:19:07,640 Speaker 2: eighty one, a few months after Carol's murder, Margaret's husband, 310 00:19:07,641 --> 00:19:09,681 Speaker 2: Neil Spooner, called police. 311 00:19:09,761 --> 00:19:10,921 Speaker 3: He said that his wife. 312 00:19:10,761 --> 00:19:13,281 Speaker 2: Had confessed to him that she had been having an affair, 313 00:19:13,321 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 2: and she said she had been having an affair with 314 00:19:15,561 --> 00:19:19,801 Speaker 2: Alan Morgan. Police confirmed this with other witnesses, including a 315 00:19:19,801 --> 00:19:23,521 Speaker 2: friend of Margaret's named Sheila Forest. Sheila told police she 316 00:19:23,641 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 2: was on a barge trip with Margaret. She said Margaret 317 00:19:26,241 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 2: kept sneaking away to meet Alan. Sheila said Margaret and 318 00:19:30,121 --> 00:19:32,881 Speaker 2: Alan were seeing each other every day at the time 319 00:19:32,881 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 2: of the murder. 320 00:19:34,041 --> 00:19:34,561 Speaker 3: She said. 321 00:19:34,681 --> 00:19:38,241 Speaker 2: Right after the murder, she saw Alan and Margaret together. 322 00:19:38,761 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 2: She said they were holding hands and Alan made the 323 00:19:41,161 --> 00:19:44,881 Speaker 2: comment it won't be long now, Darling, which Sheila said 324 00:19:44,881 --> 00:19:49,841 Speaker 2: made her feel sick. Police said in the ITV documentary 325 00:19:50,161 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 2: that they had evidence that Margaret and Alan were in 326 00:19:52,961 --> 00:19:56,561 Speaker 2: bed together the morning after the murder, and then just 327 00:19:56,601 --> 00:19:59,201 Speaker 2: a few weeks later, Margaret had left her husband she 328 00:19:59,361 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 2: moved in with Alan and his children. Now, obviously this 329 00:20:03,041 --> 00:20:06,681 Speaker 2: is all circumstantial, but it had police in nineteen eighty 330 00:20:06,681 --> 00:20:10,561 Speaker 2: one and in twenty nineteen wondering how much. 331 00:20:10,401 --> 00:20:13,241 Speaker 3: Did Margaret Spooner know and when did she know it. 332 00:20:16,241 --> 00:20:19,441 Speaker 2: In twenty nineteen, police went back to interview people in 333 00:20:19,481 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 2: the community, and even though it had been over forty years, 334 00:20:22,761 --> 00:20:25,121 Speaker 2: a lot of people who lived in this area had 335 00:20:25,161 --> 00:20:28,521 Speaker 2: heard about this case. The murder had been so brutal 336 00:20:28,761 --> 00:20:33,001 Speaker 2: people still talked about it. Forty years later. Carl Foster, 337 00:20:33,201 --> 00:20:36,561 Speaker 2: the senior investigating officer, did something else that was interesting. 338 00:20:37,121 --> 00:20:39,120 Speaker 2: He went back and looked at all of the media 339 00:20:39,201 --> 00:20:42,841 Speaker 2: reports from that time and kind of used Allan's own 340 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:46,201 Speaker 2: words against him. Police looked back at these interviews that 341 00:20:46,241 --> 00:20:49,001 Speaker 2: Alan gave to media, and they saw how he contradicted himself. 342 00:20:49,321 --> 00:20:52,281 Speaker 2: For example, when he went to Malta with Margaret and 343 00:20:52,401 --> 00:20:54,561 Speaker 2: was asked about going away with his lovers so soon 344 00:20:54,601 --> 00:20:58,241 Speaker 2: after his wife's death, he made comments saying my marriage 345 00:20:58,281 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 2: was as good as over and that he couldn't go 346 00:21:00,481 --> 00:21:04,041 Speaker 2: on mourning forever. A news channel asked Alan in nineteen 347 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 2: eighty two how the murder had affected him, and he 348 00:21:07,481 --> 00:21:10,721 Speaker 2: gave this very cold answer. He talked about how he 349 00:21:10,761 --> 00:21:12,721 Speaker 2: had to shut down the shop for weeks so the 350 00:21:12,761 --> 00:21:16,001 Speaker 2: police could do their investigation. He talked about how this 351 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 2: had ruined his business, how he had to sell the 352 00:21:18,121 --> 00:21:20,801 Speaker 2: shop at a loss. But he said nothing in that 353 00:21:20,921 --> 00:21:24,801 Speaker 2: interview that I saw about any grief for Carol or 354 00:21:24,881 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 2: the two children who she left behind. In fact, he 355 00:21:28,761 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 2: said the kids are all right, but he said it 356 00:21:31,641 --> 00:21:33,801 Speaker 2: would be better for the kids if he moved away. 357 00:21:34,961 --> 00:21:38,761 Speaker 2: So Alan seemed to be blaming the police investigation for 358 00:21:38,921 --> 00:21:42,961 Speaker 2: ruining the shop's business, But investigators found evidence that Alan 359 00:21:43,041 --> 00:21:47,481 Speaker 2: and Carol's show was having problems before she was brutally murdered. 360 00:21:48,361 --> 00:21:51,841 Speaker 2: Police in nineteen eighty one interviewed two accountants, who said 361 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,521 Speaker 2: the shop had been losing a lot of money and 362 00:21:54,601 --> 00:21:56,761 Speaker 2: that actually, at the time of the murder, Allan and 363 00:21:56,801 --> 00:22:00,001 Speaker 2: Carol were trying to sell the shop. The accountant said 364 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,521 Speaker 2: when he talked to Carol about the losses, Carrol started 365 00:22:03,521 --> 00:22:06,401 Speaker 2: crying and said that they were unhappy that they had 366 00:22:06,401 --> 00:22:11,400 Speaker 2: had big dreams for that shop. Police found another contradiction 367 00:22:11,921 --> 00:22:14,321 Speaker 2: because while Allan had given an interview to the Observer 368 00:22:14,481 --> 00:22:18,321 Speaker 2: newspaper stating that quote my wife wasn't insured, I had 369 00:22:18,361 --> 00:22:21,641 Speaker 2: nothing to gain end quote, police said that wasn't true 370 00:22:21,961 --> 00:22:25,241 Speaker 2: because Alan had taken out a loan before the murder 371 00:22:25,401 --> 00:22:28,561 Speaker 2: to help pay the shop's debt, and after Carroll's death 372 00:22:28,601 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 2: that loan was paid off completely. Alan and Margaret disappeared. 373 00:22:35,001 --> 00:22:37,961 Speaker 2: They moved away from the area and from the corner shop, 374 00:22:38,161 --> 00:22:41,961 Speaker 2: and eventually Alan and Margaret got married. They actually ended 375 00:22:42,041 --> 00:22:45,201 Speaker 2: up buying their own corner shop together in nineteen eighty two. 376 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,361 Speaker 2: Looking at the case again in twenty nineteen, police had 377 00:22:49,401 --> 00:22:52,281 Speaker 2: a new theory. They had a lot of circumstantial evidence, 378 00:22:52,761 --> 00:22:55,441 Speaker 2: but they still had zero physical evidence. 379 00:22:56,041 --> 00:22:59,201 Speaker 3: But they didn't give up. They kept talking to outside experts. 380 00:22:59,681 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 2: They made a bunch of new posters and handed them 381 00:23:02,201 --> 00:23:04,921 Speaker 2: out all over town. And I found this part really 382 00:23:04,921 --> 00:23:10,001 Speaker 2: interesting because the posters said did you know Carol? Which 383 00:23:10,041 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 2: I think is a great way of bringing people out. Eventually, 384 00:23:17,201 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 2: police said they were ready to bring Margaret and Allen 385 00:23:20,121 --> 00:23:24,481 Speaker 2: in for questioning. They found them together, still married, now 386 00:23:24,521 --> 00:23:27,801 Speaker 2: in their seventies. They were living in Brighton, and police 387 00:23:27,801 --> 00:23:31,641 Speaker 2: took them in for interviews. Both of them completely denied 388 00:23:31,761 --> 00:23:36,281 Speaker 2: any knowledge of or involvement in Carroll's murder. Margaret said 389 00:23:36,361 --> 00:23:37,921 Speaker 2: she had been horrified when she. 390 00:23:37,881 --> 00:23:38,921 Speaker 3: Heard about Carroll's death. 391 00:23:39,481 --> 00:23:42,001 Speaker 2: She said after the murder, she didn't see Allen for 392 00:23:42,041 --> 00:23:44,761 Speaker 2: several days. She said she out of town that week, 393 00:23:45,401 --> 00:23:48,521 Speaker 2: but police knew that wasn't true because they had witnesses 394 00:23:48,561 --> 00:23:53,161 Speaker 2: saying otherwise. Police went back and they kept knocking on doors. 395 00:23:53,801 --> 00:23:57,801 Speaker 2: Eventually they figured out what they believed was the murder weapon. 396 00:23:58,361 --> 00:24:00,880 Speaker 2: They had talked to several witnesses who said there was 397 00:24:00,961 --> 00:24:04,441 Speaker 2: a machete in Alan's shop, and a machete in a 398 00:24:04,481 --> 00:24:06,401 Speaker 2: corner shop is the kind of thing that you tend 399 00:24:06,481 --> 00:24:10,001 Speaker 2: to notice. But Alan told police there wasn't a machete 400 00:24:10,041 --> 00:24:12,441 Speaker 2: in there. He said he couldn't remember the type of 401 00:24:12,481 --> 00:24:12,921 Speaker 2: weapon that. 402 00:24:12,921 --> 00:24:13,321 Speaker 3: Was in there. 403 00:24:13,361 --> 00:24:16,721 Speaker 2: So again police don't have anything concrete, but they do 404 00:24:16,801 --> 00:24:20,761 Speaker 2: have this contradictory information between what Alan's telling them and 405 00:24:20,801 --> 00:24:24,281 Speaker 2: what witnesses at the time were telling them. They also 406 00:24:24,401 --> 00:24:27,401 Speaker 2: questioned Alan about some dodgy financial stuff in his background, 407 00:24:27,801 --> 00:24:31,761 Speaker 2: including convictions for insurance fraud, but when police asked Alan 408 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:36,441 Speaker 2: about that, he denied any knowledge of those convictions. Police 409 00:24:36,481 --> 00:24:39,120 Speaker 2: also spoke to witnesses who said that Alan had a 410 00:24:39,201 --> 00:24:43,401 Speaker 2: violent temper. A friend of Carol's named Sheila, told police 411 00:24:43,801 --> 00:24:46,681 Speaker 2: that at one point Carol told her she was pregnant 412 00:24:46,681 --> 00:24:49,361 Speaker 2: with twins and that Alan punched her in the stomach 413 00:24:49,481 --> 00:24:51,201 Speaker 2: and that later she lost her babies. 414 00:24:52,041 --> 00:24:54,041 Speaker 3: The friends said Alan would. 415 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:59,961 Speaker 2: Regularly physically abuse Carroll, which again Alan completely denied. Police 416 00:25:00,001 --> 00:25:03,041 Speaker 2: talked to Alan's daughter from his first marriage. She said 417 00:25:03,161 --> 00:25:05,681 Speaker 2: her dad would sometimes tie her to a chair when 418 00:25:05,681 --> 00:25:09,041 Speaker 2: she did something wrong. She said sometimes he would hit 419 00:25:09,041 --> 00:25:11,761 Speaker 2: her with a belt. She said she was terrified of 420 00:25:11,761 --> 00:25:17,801 Speaker 2: her father. Still, police did not have enough to charge 421 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,521 Speaker 2: Alan and Margaret, so Alan and Margaret were released from 422 00:25:21,601 --> 00:25:30,561 Speaker 2: police custody. This investigation dragged on for a long time, 423 00:25:30,961 --> 00:25:35,001 Speaker 2: six years total, and finally the public appeals the police 424 00:25:35,001 --> 00:25:38,241 Speaker 2: were making seemed to pay off because in twenty twenty, 425 00:25:38,761 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 2: new witnesses came forward, people who had never talked to 426 00:25:42,201 --> 00:25:45,761 Speaker 2: law enforcement in the past. One was a guy named 427 00:25:45,761 --> 00:25:48,601 Speaker 2: Michael Marrin. Michael was eighteen years old at the time 428 00:25:48,601 --> 00:25:51,521 Speaker 2: of Carroll's murder. He said he knew Alan from the shop. 429 00:25:51,961 --> 00:25:55,521 Speaker 2: He also knew Alan's car. On August thirteenth, the night 430 00:25:55,561 --> 00:25:58,521 Speaker 2: of Carroll's murder, he said he was driving home from 431 00:25:58,521 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 2: the train station with his mom when he saw Alan 432 00:26:01,161 --> 00:26:04,201 Speaker 2: in his car driving in the opposite direction. He said 433 00:26:04,201 --> 00:26:06,481 Speaker 2: Alan passed him on the road and that this was 434 00:26:06,521 --> 00:26:10,841 Speaker 2: at around six forty five pm. Police said they couldn't 435 00:26:10,881 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 2: find Michael Marin's witness statements, but ITV interviewed him, and 436 00:26:14,961 --> 00:26:18,921 Speaker 2: over forty years later, he said he was still absolutely 437 00:26:18,961 --> 00:26:21,321 Speaker 2: certain that he saw Alan Morgan on the night of 438 00:26:21,361 --> 00:26:22,041 Speaker 2: Carroll's murder. 439 00:26:23,161 --> 00:26:26,001 Speaker 3: This would have been after Alan claimed he was at 440 00:26:26,001 --> 00:26:26,921 Speaker 3: the movies. 441 00:26:26,921 --> 00:26:29,721 Speaker 2: Because remember Alan's daughter said they bought the tickets at 442 00:26:29,761 --> 00:26:31,481 Speaker 2: six twenty five pm. 443 00:26:31,921 --> 00:26:33,761 Speaker 3: But police's biggest. 444 00:26:33,361 --> 00:26:36,721 Speaker 2: Break was in March of twenty twenty one. That's when 445 00:26:36,801 --> 00:26:39,441 Speaker 2: Jane Foster, a woman who was a teenager at the 446 00:26:39,441 --> 00:26:44,201 Speaker 2: time of Carroll's murder, contacted police. The investigating officer told 447 00:26:44,281 --> 00:26:47,521 Speaker 2: ITV News Anglia. Quote. When we went to visit her, 448 00:26:47,681 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 2: we knocked on the door and she said, I've been 449 00:26:50,121 --> 00:26:53,281 Speaker 2: waiting for you to visit me for forty years end quote. 450 00:26:54,121 --> 00:26:57,321 Speaker 2: Jane said she was very friendly with Margaret Spooner back 451 00:26:57,361 --> 00:26:59,561 Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty one because she was a troubled teen 452 00:26:59,601 --> 00:27:03,001 Speaker 2: Back then, at age fourteen, Jane said she got expelled 453 00:27:03,041 --> 00:27:03,561 Speaker 2: from school. 454 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,041 Speaker 3: Margaret was one of her tutors. 455 00:27:06,441 --> 00:27:08,321 Speaker 2: She said that Margaret took an interest in her and 456 00:27:08,361 --> 00:27:12,161 Speaker 2: that Margaret had saved her life. They confided in each 457 00:27:12,201 --> 00:27:15,721 Speaker 2: other and got very close. Three years later, when she 458 00:27:15,801 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 2: was seventeen, One night, Margaret invited her to a local 459 00:27:19,201 --> 00:27:22,321 Speaker 2: pub called the Dolphin. Jane said Margaret picked her up 460 00:27:22,321 --> 00:27:24,561 Speaker 2: and drove her to the pub. Jane said that when 461 00:27:24,561 --> 00:27:27,721 Speaker 2: they got there, Alan was there, and Jane said Alan 462 00:27:27,801 --> 00:27:30,881 Speaker 2: made statements about hating Carroll and that Alan said, well, 463 00:27:30,881 --> 00:27:34,081 Speaker 2: I'd quite like Carol dead. Jane said she sat there 464 00:27:34,121 --> 00:27:37,961 Speaker 2: in shock while Alan and Margaret openly discussed how to 465 00:27:37,961 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 2: get rid of Carrol. How they talked about doing it 466 00:27:40,601 --> 00:27:43,201 Speaker 2: with insulin, but ruled it out because they didn't really 467 00:27:43,201 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 2: have medical training. Then, Jane said they talked about rigging 468 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,001 Speaker 2: Carol's car, but then they said no, they couldn't do 469 00:27:50,041 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 2: that because neither of them knew anything about car mechanics. 470 00:27:53,241 --> 00:27:55,961 Speaker 2: And they talked about how something could go wrong, What 471 00:27:56,041 --> 00:27:56,921 Speaker 2: if someone else. 472 00:27:56,681 --> 00:27:58,281 Speaker 3: Took the car, what if one of the kids was 473 00:27:58,321 --> 00:27:58,721 Speaker 3: in the car. 474 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,801 Speaker 2: Jane said she freaked out with all this talk and 475 00:28:02,881 --> 00:28:05,401 Speaker 2: ran out of the pub. She said Margaret ran after 476 00:28:05,441 --> 00:28:08,401 Speaker 2: her and told her Alan was just kidding, but Jane 477 00:28:08,401 --> 00:28:11,601 Speaker 2: said while she was there, Alan also made some comments 478 00:28:11,601 --> 00:28:15,921 Speaker 2: about hiring someone else to kill Carrol. Much later, Jane 479 00:28:15,921 --> 00:28:18,961 Speaker 2: would tell police she wondered if they were trying to 480 00:28:19,001 --> 00:28:22,561 Speaker 2: introduce the idea that perhaps Jane would be involved with 481 00:28:22,561 --> 00:28:28,521 Speaker 2: the killing. Police asked Jane why it took so long 482 00:28:28,561 --> 00:28:31,841 Speaker 2: for her to come forward. She said she was seventeen 483 00:28:31,921 --> 00:28:35,721 Speaker 2: years old at the time. She adored and idolized Margaret, 484 00:28:36,401 --> 00:28:39,121 Speaker 2: and she said that later Margaret told her not to 485 00:28:39,161 --> 00:28:42,241 Speaker 2: talk to anyone about that pub conversation, and she said 486 00:28:42,281 --> 00:28:46,441 Speaker 2: Margaret tried to reassure her Alan didn't do it. Jane 487 00:28:46,521 --> 00:28:49,561 Speaker 2: said she always believed Alan was capable of murder, but 488 00:28:49,721 --> 00:28:54,801 Speaker 2: she said now years later, she was considering another horrific possibility. 489 00:28:54,841 --> 00:28:57,761 Speaker 2: What if Margaret not only knew about it, but was 490 00:28:57,801 --> 00:28:58,841 Speaker 2: somehow involved. 491 00:29:00,041 --> 00:29:02,521 Speaker 3: Could Margaret have been the person who killed Carol? 492 00:29:12,521 --> 00:29:16,321 Speaker 2: When police interviewed Alan and Margaret, Allan denied, ever, saying 493 00:29:16,361 --> 00:29:19,961 Speaker 2: that he wished Carol was dead. Margaret years later said 494 00:29:20,041 --> 00:29:22,921 Speaker 2: she had no memory of ever having a conversation like 495 00:29:22,961 --> 00:29:26,241 Speaker 2: the one Jane was talking about now. Of course, Margaret 496 00:29:26,281 --> 00:29:29,881 Speaker 2: has never been charged with Carroll's murder and has always 497 00:29:29,881 --> 00:29:33,241 Speaker 2: completely denied any knowledge of it or participation in it. 498 00:29:34,081 --> 00:29:37,081 Speaker 2: So again, police had no concrete evidence Alan had been 499 00:29:37,121 --> 00:29:40,961 Speaker 2: at the crime scene, but they believed he had orchestrated 500 00:29:40,961 --> 00:29:44,161 Speaker 2: Carroll's murder. They believed there might be a hit man involved, 501 00:29:44,441 --> 00:29:47,001 Speaker 2: that Alan may have paid someone to have Carol killed. 502 00:29:47,401 --> 00:29:49,961 Speaker 2: But once again they didn't have enough evidence to go 503 00:29:50,041 --> 00:29:54,281 Speaker 2: forward with a case. So again Alan and Margaret were released. 504 00:29:55,401 --> 00:29:59,121 Speaker 2: Police went back through the investigation material again, They went 505 00:29:59,201 --> 00:30:00,801 Speaker 2: through thousands of documents. 506 00:30:00,961 --> 00:30:01,321 Speaker 3: Again. 507 00:30:02,041 --> 00:30:05,921 Speaker 2: This time, they changed their strategies slightly. They realized they 508 00:30:06,001 --> 00:30:08,681 Speaker 2: might not have enough to charge Alan with murder. That 509 00:30:08,761 --> 00:30:11,041 Speaker 2: they felt they did have enough to charge him and 510 00:30:11,161 --> 00:30:16,201 Speaker 2: Margaret with conspiracy to murder. For that, the ITV documentary explained, 511 00:30:16,641 --> 00:30:19,441 Speaker 2: they only needed to prove that Alan and Margaret paid 512 00:30:19,481 --> 00:30:22,441 Speaker 2: someone to kill Carroll. They didn't need to figure out 513 00:30:22,521 --> 00:30:26,321 Speaker 2: who the actual hip man or hit woman was. During 514 00:30:26,321 --> 00:30:30,681 Speaker 2: this time, police were recording conversations between Alan and Margaret. 515 00:30:31,441 --> 00:30:34,441 Speaker 2: In the documentary, police pointed out Alan and Margaret didn't 516 00:30:34,481 --> 00:30:37,281 Speaker 2: confess to anything, it was more what they didn't say 517 00:30:37,401 --> 00:30:38,681 Speaker 2: that made them believe they were. 518 00:30:38,561 --> 00:30:39,681 Speaker 3: Still hiding things. 519 00:30:40,041 --> 00:30:44,241 Speaker 2: For example, when they were talking about being arrested, Alan said, quote, 520 00:30:44,481 --> 00:30:46,721 Speaker 2: I don't want to say anything because they might have 521 00:30:47,201 --> 00:30:50,081 Speaker 2: end quote, and then he trailed off and got quiet. 522 00:30:50,601 --> 00:30:53,361 Speaker 2: And it was also picked up on tape that Margaret 523 00:30:53,441 --> 00:30:54,841 Speaker 2: told him multiple. 524 00:30:54,441 --> 00:30:55,801 Speaker 3: Times to keep his mouth shut. 525 00:30:57,001 --> 00:31:00,681 Speaker 2: Finally, Alan and Margaret were arrested and charged with conspiracy 526 00:31:00,721 --> 00:31:04,561 Speaker 2: to murder Carol. Alan and Margaret both pleaded not guilty, 527 00:31:04,761 --> 00:31:08,881 Speaker 2: and they both went to trial. Allan and Margaret's trials 528 00:31:08,881 --> 00:31:12,201 Speaker 2: started in summer of twenty twenty four in Luton Crown Court. 529 00:31:13,081 --> 00:31:16,361 Speaker 2: The prosecution focused on Alan and Margaret's love affair and 530 00:31:16,401 --> 00:31:20,001 Speaker 2: the motives financial and otherwise for why they said Alan 531 00:31:20,041 --> 00:31:23,161 Speaker 2: and Margaret needed Carol out of the way. The prosecution 532 00:31:23,321 --> 00:31:26,081 Speaker 2: said the killing was a result of Alan and Margaret's 533 00:31:26,121 --> 00:31:31,761 Speaker 2: quote passionate but forbidden An adulterous affair end quote. Carol's son, 534 00:31:31,881 --> 00:31:34,521 Speaker 2: Dean Morgan, testified about what happened on the day of 535 00:31:34,561 --> 00:31:37,361 Speaker 2: his mother's murder. He said when they got back to 536 00:31:37,401 --> 00:31:40,801 Speaker 2: the shop at ten thirty pm after the movies, Alan 537 00:31:40,841 --> 00:31:43,081 Speaker 2: had told him to go upstairs and make a cup 538 00:31:43,121 --> 00:31:45,881 Speaker 2: of coffee. He said that as he went through the 539 00:31:45,961 --> 00:31:49,481 Speaker 2: kitchen to get the coffee, he heard the family dog, Simon, 540 00:31:49,601 --> 00:31:53,001 Speaker 2: in Jane's bedroom whining to get out. He said, quote 541 00:31:53,401 --> 00:31:54,721 Speaker 2: the door was closed and he. 542 00:31:54,721 --> 00:31:55,441 Speaker 3: Couldn't get out. 543 00:31:55,881 --> 00:31:58,521 Speaker 2: Simon usually had the run of the flat and the shop. 544 00:31:59,001 --> 00:32:01,241 Speaker 2: I let Simon out. I made Dad a cup of 545 00:32:01,241 --> 00:32:05,561 Speaker 2: coffee end quote, which brings up another question. If the 546 00:32:05,601 --> 00:32:08,241 Speaker 2: two witnesses who said they saw Carol at around eight 547 00:32:08,281 --> 00:32:11,481 Speaker 2: thirty pm were right and Carol was walking the dog, 548 00:32:11,521 --> 00:32:13,601 Speaker 2: then presumably the dog. 549 00:32:13,401 --> 00:32:14,041 Speaker 3: Was with Carol. 550 00:32:14,521 --> 00:32:17,481 Speaker 2: So how did the dog end up locked in the bedroom. 551 00:32:19,121 --> 00:32:22,321 Speaker 2: Dean talked about his shock after the arrests. He said 552 00:32:22,401 --> 00:32:24,561 Speaker 2: Alan had assured him that it was all just a 553 00:32:24,641 --> 00:32:27,561 Speaker 2: mix up, but Dean said they got into an argument 554 00:32:27,601 --> 00:32:30,321 Speaker 2: after that, and that he and Alan had not spoken since. 555 00:32:31,761 --> 00:32:34,881 Speaker 2: Side note here, I cannot imagine what those children must 556 00:32:34,881 --> 00:32:37,561 Speaker 2: have gone through first to lose their mother in such 557 00:32:37,561 --> 00:32:40,881 Speaker 2: a brutal way, then to live with Margaret and Allen 558 00:32:41,001 --> 00:32:43,561 Speaker 2: for all those years. I find myself wondering what the 559 00:32:43,881 --> 00:32:46,641 Speaker 2: relationship was like, and if they ever talked about that night, 560 00:32:46,961 --> 00:32:50,081 Speaker 2: and how they are feeling now wherever they are. 561 00:32:50,441 --> 00:32:52,481 Speaker 3: I hope that they have found some peace. 562 00:32:53,801 --> 00:32:58,161 Speaker 2: On June nineteenth, twenty twenty four, Alan Morgan was convicted 563 00:32:58,321 --> 00:33:03,121 Speaker 2: of conspiracy to murder Carol, but Margaret was acquitted. She 564 00:33:03,281 --> 00:33:07,001 Speaker 2: walked out of court a free woman. Meanwhile, Allan was 565 00:33:07,041 --> 00:33:09,681 Speaker 2: sentenced to life in prison with a minimum term of 566 00:33:09,721 --> 00:33:12,921 Speaker 2: twenty two years, which means at his age he will 567 00:33:12,961 --> 00:33:19,281 Speaker 2: almost certainly die behind bars. Finally, Carroll's family had some justice. 568 00:33:20,561 --> 00:33:23,241 Speaker 2: Carl Foster said he was happy that Allan had been 569 00:33:23,241 --> 00:33:27,481 Speaker 2: brought to justice, but he said police would continue looking 570 00:33:27,521 --> 00:33:31,361 Speaker 2: for the higher assassin and anyone else who was involved 571 00:33:31,401 --> 00:33:35,241 Speaker 2: in the conspiracy to kill Carroll. The prosecuting attorney stated 572 00:33:35,721 --> 00:33:39,321 Speaker 2: they believe the Chinese puzzle box drawer was evidence that 573 00:33:39,401 --> 00:33:41,521 Speaker 2: Alan had told the killer how that drawer. 574 00:33:41,281 --> 00:33:41,921 Speaker 3: Could be opened. 575 00:33:42,401 --> 00:33:45,601 Speaker 2: The prosecution said they believe Allan had promised the hit 576 00:33:45,681 --> 00:33:48,161 Speaker 2: man money from that drawer and from the register as 577 00:33:48,201 --> 00:33:52,481 Speaker 2: partial payment for the murder. The prosecution said the motive 578 00:33:52,521 --> 00:33:55,001 Speaker 2: for the murder was money, but not the money from 579 00:33:55,001 --> 00:33:59,961 Speaker 2: the shop, Allan's bigger financial problems. The prosecution said Allan 580 00:34:00,121 --> 00:34:03,201 Speaker 2: was facing financial ruin and that he wanted the life 581 00:34:03,201 --> 00:34:05,441 Speaker 2: insurance payout if Carol died. 582 00:34:06,401 --> 00:34:08,321 Speaker 3: They said that insurance. 583 00:34:07,881 --> 00:34:09,801 Speaker 2: Payout allowed him to pay off the loan from the 584 00:34:09,841 --> 00:34:17,041 Speaker 2: shop and start fresh with his lover, Margaret. The Justice 585 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 2: Martin Spencer said, quote, it is apparent that divorce was 586 00:34:20,681 --> 00:34:24,201 Speaker 2: not a viable option. On the jury's verdict, you decided 587 00:34:24,241 --> 00:34:26,761 Speaker 2: on the alternative option, which was to get rid of 588 00:34:26,801 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 2: Carol by having her murdered. Her life insurance would clear 589 00:34:30,761 --> 00:34:33,401 Speaker 2: the debt of the business. It further meant you were 590 00:34:33,401 --> 00:34:36,761 Speaker 2: free to continue your affair with and eventually marry Margaret 591 00:34:36,761 --> 00:34:41,761 Speaker 2: Spinner end quote. The judge also talked about Carroll and 592 00:34:41,801 --> 00:34:44,841 Speaker 2: what a good person she was, saying that Carol was 593 00:34:44,881 --> 00:34:48,881 Speaker 2: a thoroughly admirable person and adding quote she did not 594 00:34:48,921 --> 00:34:51,401 Speaker 2: deserve to die, and I have no doubt that if 595 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,401 Speaker 2: she met her death, her final thoughts would have been 596 00:34:54,601 --> 00:34:59,001 Speaker 2: with her two children, then aged fourteen and twelve end quote. 597 00:35:01,401 --> 00:35:05,841 Speaker 2: Police say they've accepted the fact they may never find 598 00:35:05,881 --> 00:35:09,721 Speaker 2: out who the actual killer was, but they've also said 599 00:35:10,001 --> 00:35:15,561 Speaker 2: they won't stop looking. I'm Catherine Townsend. This is Helen 600 00:35:15,601 --> 00:35:19,641 Speaker 2: Gone Murder Line. Helen Gone Murder Line is a production 601 00:35:19,721 --> 00:35:22,641 Speaker 2: of School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. It's written and 602 00:35:22,721 --> 00:35:25,921 Speaker 2: narrated by me Catherine Townsend and produced by Gabby Watts. 603 00:35:26,641 --> 00:35:29,881 Speaker 2: Special thanks to Amy Tubbs for her research assistance and 604 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,361 Speaker 2: to James Wheaton for legal review. Noah Kamer mixed and 605 00:35:33,401 --> 00:35:36,921 Speaker 2: scored this episode. Our theme song is by Ben Sale. 606 00:35:37,121 --> 00:35:40,641 Speaker 2: Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and l. C. 607 00:35:40,801 --> 00:35:43,161 Speaker 3: Crowley. Listen to Helen Gone. 608 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,841 Speaker 2: Ad free by subscribing to the iHeart True Crime Plus 609 00:35:45,921 --> 00:35:49,281 Speaker 2: channel on Apple Podcasts. If you were interested in seeing 610 00:35:49,281 --> 00:35:52,121 Speaker 2: documents and materials from the case, you can follow the 611 00:35:52,121 --> 00:35:54,761 Speaker 2: show on Instagram at Helen gonpod. 612 00:35:55,401 --> 00:35:57,161 Speaker 3: If you have a case you'd like me and. 613 00:35:57,121 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 2: My team to look into, you can reach out to 614 00:35:59,601 --> 00:36:01,921 Speaker 2: us at our Helen Gone Murder Line at six seven 615 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,721 Speaker 2: eight seven four four six one four five. That's six 616 00:36:05,761 --> 00:36:09,201 Speaker 2: seven eight seven four four six one four five. 617 00:36:14,361 --> 00:36:15,281 Speaker 1: School of Humans