WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 81 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:06.400 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:09.440 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:13.280 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:15.800 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:17.680 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:19.520 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:28.280 you can make your own decisions. Ah, it's it could 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:33.040 happen here a podcast about things falling apart, and today 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:37.040 I'm I'm happy that we're we're recording this right now, 0:00:37.680 --> 0:00:42.040 James and Garrison, because we all just got a historic 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:46.240 example of something falling apart Elon Musk's Big Silly rocket. 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:49.479 We're recording this about a day or so after it 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:52.960 exploded in mid air for the Gulf Coast, showering a 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:57.560 turtle sanctuary with toxic waste. It's such a such a 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:01.680 fun news that's comically perfect. Is really it is pretty cool? 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:04.880 Perfect unless it crashed landed in a kitten farm. That 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:05.839 couldn't really be. 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:09.039 Yeah, perfect, No, I mean it. What's nice is that 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:11.680 it's given me. It's made me feel young again because 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:15.000 when I was a wee lad. I was attending a 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:19.040 speech to debate rally in Cooper, Texas when the last 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:23.560 Space shuttle to explode exploded directly over us, blowing out 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:27.679 a bunch of the windows in the building and raining. Yeah, yeah, 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:30.200 it was, it was. It was. Yeah. So I whenever 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:33.880 whenever a space shuttle explodes over of some sort, explodes 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:36.480 over Texas, I get powerful nostalgia. 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:39.319 Well, they they slipped the surly bonds of Verse to 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:42.440 blow out the windows in a high school in Cooper, Texas. 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:44.640 Yeah, that's that's how the line goes. It makes me 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:46.520 think of all the other things I was doing that day, 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:49.200 which was namely playing Lord of the Rings risk in 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:52.120 a high school gym. As we as we were wont 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:55.080 to do great game, one of the better, one of 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:58.520 the better risk covers. What are we talking about today, 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:01.919 friendo buddies. 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:06.080 Wells, Yeah, we're talking. 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:10.200 About talking about one one man having having a fun 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:12.560 time on Discord dot com. 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:16.800 Yeah, doing the human equivalent of being a spaceship that 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:20.120 explodes in the sky. 0:02:22.800 --> 0:02:25.000 I suppose Discord is not really a dot com. It's 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:27.239 it's more, it's more it's more of a more of 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:31.080 an application now. But yes, it is what. 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:35.799 Good discord and that I'm permanently banned from LEA again, 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:40.600 what did you do to discord? 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:42.440 Discord should a video? 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:46.080 Who's on discord right? Like the worst people, all of 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:47.360 the worst people. You know. 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:50.080 We tried to start a discord for the fundraising live show, 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:52.240 and I tried with several emails and every time it 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:53.480 came back with ban evasion. 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:56.320 That is extremely funny, Jims. 0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:59.920 Yeah, I posted the chickens and it has never forgiven me. 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:04.560 Wow. Well, I mean, you know, those chickens didn't consent 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:06.880 and they were technically naked, so I think it does 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:13.440 count as revenge points are always close. Chicken peck, Oh yeah, 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:16.679 you're one of the pansies. There's a big conflict in 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:20.160 chicken owners and James has taken aside. So we're talking 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:22.840 this week about the discord leaks, and this is one 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:24.800 of those things we came into this kind of debating 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:27.120 how much detail to go into. But when we brought 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:30.360 this up, like this is something that gare James and 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:32.480 I is like a major thing in our bubble for 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:35.600 the last like week, so we've all been following it. 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:37.520 But when we brought this up in the work chat. 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:40.640 Daniel had no idea that this had gone on. So 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:43.040 we're going to start with a pretty basic overview of 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:47.640 what people are calling the largest leak of top secret 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:54.880 US military and defense data since you know Snowden. So 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:58.119 we're we're going to go over all of that right now. 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:00.240 I think I want to start by talking about out 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:03.120 an MMO RPG called war Thunder. 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:06.480 This is a can you break down MMO RPG for 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:07.000 those of us. 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:09.320 It's it's a it's like World of Warcraft. It's a 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:12.160 big video game that is play that you play online 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:15.440 with a bunch of strangers. It's a free game. You 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:18.760 use like modern military weapons to like fight other players. 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:23.000 And it's kind of well known for having extremely realistic 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:27.320 renderings and sort of depictions of the functionality of modern 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:31.719 tanks and armored transports and fighter planes and naval vessels. 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:36.279 Right so, and it's it's it's like it's it's a 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:39.240 game for war nerds, right Like there's you you utilize 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:41.880 like radar in a way that's broadly realistic, Like if 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:44.719 you shoot, you know, if one tank shoots in another, 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:48.120 the tank's weaponry works the way it's supposed to in 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:51.120 the real world. The armor is vulnerable where it's vulnerable 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:53.840 in the real world. And this is like the appeal 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:57.520 to the kind of nerds who play this game, and 0:04:57.560 --> 0:04:59.159 as you might guess, from a bunch of people who 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:02.080 really want to, like, in the most realistic way possible, 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:06.240 render and fight each other with modern military vehicles. A 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:11.080 significant number of these dudes are members of various different 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:15.360 like defense departments right, or at least are employed in 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:20.520 some degree of various different national military forces several different 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:23.839 As a result, like when arguments happen, you know, with 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:26.880 any MMLRPG, if you're playing like World of Warcraft, right, 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:30.400 and like something gets nerved or something isn't working as 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:32.480 well as it's opposed to, you'll get these like massive 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:35.440 threads in the forums where people are like arguing about 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:38.160 how something needs to be changed or changed back, or 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:41.240 how there's a glitch or whatever. And because war Thunder 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:45.800 is so based in realism, when you have these arguments online, 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:48.839 it's often like, well, you know, the F fifteen shouldn't 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:50.720 work this way, it should work this way, and people 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:53.320 will get into arguments about that, and then someone will 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:57.200 as happened like a couple of weeks ago, I think 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:02.040 someone will post sensitive and information about the F fifteen 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:06.520 Strike Eagle in order to prove that it would function 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:10.000 the way that they are arguing it should function in 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:13.040 this forum debate. That happened earlier this year, and I 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:16.799 think with the F fifteen, it wasn't technically top secret information. 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:19.720 It was information that US citizens were allowed to have 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:23.680 but not allowed to post online because that's a violation 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:28.320 of something called ITAR, which is a thing that governs 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:34.839 the export, essentially of military information and technology. But on 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:38.320 another situation, I think, like a year or so ago, 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:40.400 information of it, I believe the F twenty two was 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:44.720 posted that was extremely sensitive. It was like top secret. 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:48.240 And these are again like some dude who's got some 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:51.280 sort of military job and has a clearance and thinks 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:53.360 that the right way to use it is arguing about 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:57.400 the video game war Thunder. These are not just Americans. 0:06:57.400 --> 0:06:59.080 I want to be clear about that. In July of 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:02.160 twenty twenty one, there was a player arguing about a 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:05.200 Challenger two tank who claimed to have been a former 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:09.920 tank commander with the British Army, and he shared information 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:13.840 from the Army Equipment Support publication. The information had been 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:19.920 labeled unclassified, but it was actually classified, and other lakes 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:23.160 has been a little more galling. A French Army soldier 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:26.400 leaked information on the Clerk main battle tank that was 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:29.640 top secret, and a Chinese user leaked capabilities at the 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:33.360 Chinese Army's DTC ten one hundred and twenty five millimeters 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:36.280 anti tank round that should not have been leaked. So 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:39.320 thisat shit keeps happening in war Thunder. It's like a joke, 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:43.480 like the war Thunder account when these discord leaks happened 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:46.640 a week or so ago, like joked about it. But 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:49.800 like the thing that the game is known for, Yeah, 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:53.360 is these like different people in different national defense apparati 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:57.640 can't stop themselves from like leaking stop secret info about vehicles. 0:07:58.000 --> 0:07:58.920 It's very funny. 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:00.480 I guess the only reason I know why War th 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:03.200 Under exists. I think it's the only reason why we 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:05.520 know a decent amount of what like what by we 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:07.880 here and meaning that could like I guess, uh, like 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:11.200 Western militaries no, which of course we are all members of. 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:15.000 No about like Russian main battle tanks is from war 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:16.000 under leaks. 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:17.840 Yeah, very funny. 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:20.760 Yeah, and you have to assume I would be surprised 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:24.200 if no one had tried just like having you know, 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:28.960 an agent from a national security agency in uh oh 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:32.040 for sure, but they're trying to like be like trying 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:36.360 to like provoke arguments about Chinese tanks or whatever. I'd 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:38.160 be shocked if that hasn't happened. 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:42.040 Yeah, like the overlap between like people who might play 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:43.839 warth Under anyway and people who might work for a 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:47.800 national security agency, Like those Van diagrams are a circle. 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:50.800 Yeah, exactly. So it's one of those things where this 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:52.560 happens a bunch on war th Under. But it's just 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:55.440 kind of something people joke about because these leaks like 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:59.480 they're meaningful. I guess to like militaries care about them. 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:02.120 But like you sitting at home, you hear like, oh, hey, 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:06.839 details of like the couple of construction of the new 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:10.640 Abrams like models as leaked. That's not like the same 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:14.080 as I don't know, Chelsea Manning leaking information about like 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:16.880 war crimes by the US military in Iraq, or Edward 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:19.559 Snowden leaking info about like the NSA. Like it's a 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:24.959 little less relevant to most people. What we started seeing 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:30.040 a couple of weeks ago is documents top secret label documents, 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:35.000 like actual pictures of straight up, unredacted, top secret US 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:40.520 Defense Department documents just kind of filtering out over various discords, 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:42.600 and they were kind of appearing in random little bits. 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:45.800 You'd see one that was like an update on the 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:48.200 war in Ukraine that was kind of showing concerns that 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:51.800 the US military had about the ability of the Ukrainian 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:54.760 military to carry out the counter offensive that everybody's expecting 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:58.640 in the near future. You have like casualty estimates from 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:02.000 the US military. Another document that was leak had like 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:06.679 a bunch of information inside the Russian General Staff. So 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:10.679 these are number one, very serious leaks, right you're talking about, 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:14.880 especially with the leaks from inside Putin's kind of inner circle. 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:18.319 You're talking about leaks that could potentially expose a major 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:21.280 US source inside the Russian government. And you're also talking 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:24.240 about leaks that just kind of revealed the degree to 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:29.040 which the CIA has an enormous amount of information apparently 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:32.440 at least about what's happening inside the Kremlin. 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:32.720 You know. 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:36.600 So these are very significant leaks, but they didn't appear. 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:40.920 They weren't being like you know, kind of filtered out 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:44.240 and released by an agency like Wiki leaks. They weren't 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:47.120 being sent to journalists. They were just kind of showing 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:50.160 up in these you know, Discord is basically a series 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:52.520 of chat rooms, and they were just kind of showing 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:56.080 up in different discords. So this is, you know, a mystery, 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:58.880 and it's the kind of mystery that, like a certain 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:02.760 kind of person who is extremely online is not going 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:04.280 to be able to get out of their head and 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:06.160 is going to kind of try to trace back to 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:10.160 its origin. And in the case of this specific mystery, 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:12.800 the nerd who could not get it out of their 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:15.240 head and decided to trace it back to its origin 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:19.800 was my former boss at Bellingcat, Eric Tohler. Eric is 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:23.800 a very nice guy, probably the most talented and skilled 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:27.080 researcher that I've ever met in my life. And you know, 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:31.000 Eric started seeing these, like everyone else, these top secret documents, 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:33.079 and was like, where the fuck are these coming from? 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:35.280 And this is one of those things we'll talk about. 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:39.200 It's become extremely controversial among a certain set of people 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:42.520 in the day since. But when this kind of started, 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:45.240 Number one, you can't really deny there was an intense 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:48.920 public interest in figuring out what the origin point of 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:50.839 these was because that was the only way to figure 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:54.360 out are the these actual leaks. When you see something 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:57.319 that's just like listed as a top secret document randomly 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:00.480 on the internet, if you call up the US government 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:03.960 and you say, hey, is this real top secret impot, 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:07.320 They're not gonna say yes, right like, you don't get 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:09.320 that response from them, I mean. 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:12.440 And especially right now with all of like the AI 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:17.800 chat generation tools, Generating fake documents is one of the 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:21.640 main things people are doing for disinfo, generating like fake sources, 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:25.000 fake documents. Of course, you can like edit things further 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:27.960 to like make them seem more realistic, but yes, you 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:33.080 have someone who is extremely curious is going to wonder 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:35.040 if this is actually like a real thing or if 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:37.760 this is just some like bullshit prank or something. 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:41.960 And there were edits of these documents did also go violin. 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:44.160 In fact, Kucker Carlson one of the one of the 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:47.120 original documents shows kind of US estimates for killed in 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:50.160 action on Ukraine's on the Ukrainian side and on the 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:54.400 Russian side in the war. Obviously, it showed more Russian 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:59.680 casualties than Ukrainian casualties, which is consistent with all previous reporting, 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:03.480 but the edit of it showed something like many times 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:07.720 as many Ukrainian dead as Russian dead, which is something 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:09.880 that was valuable for the people who are trying to 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:14.160 argue that this war is unwinnable on behalf of the Ukrainians. 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:17.679 Guys like Tucker Carlson who covered the leaks on his 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:22.320 show and knowingly used the fake edit of the leak, 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:25.520 I can't imagine. I have to assume it was knowingly 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.400 because he had been very well exposed by that point, 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:31.800 so there's really no other explanation, I think. But anyway, 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:34.600 the fact that there were edits of these documents that 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:37.000 were not legitimate going around, it's just kind of part 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:39.120 of why there was a legitimate public interest in trying 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:42.959 to figure out where the fuck are these things coming from. 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:47.600 Eric is again an extremely good researcher, and through a 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:50.400 mix of open source intelligence and eventually just kind of 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:53.560 like calling up people and talking to them, he found 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:57.320 what appeared to be the source of these leaks, which 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:01.840 was an invitation only clubhouse on scored of like thirty 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:06.480 ish people, most of whom were teenagers. Over time, it 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:10.120 kind of became clear that this group was a bunch 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:13.640 of kind of young people who had gotten together during 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:17.640 the pandemic to talk about you know, games. These guys 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:20.600 are all gamers. Most of them were like kids in 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:23.640 high school, they kind of were cut off from their friends, 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:25.600 so they wanted a place to be social. They would 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:30.520 share memes, including like extremely racist, you know, borderline Nazi shit. 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:34.120 They would like watch movies over and like chat over 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:37.440 kind of the voice app. They were all what you 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:44.680 call tradcats, which is like basically weirdo Catholic fundamentalists, like 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:47.000 I think a lot of them deny Vatican two, that 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:50.280 sort of shit. It's like a whole thing. A lot 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:51.640 of them were that at least, so there was a 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:54.440 lot of like praying and anyway, a bunch of weirdos. 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:57.080 And the head of this group of weirdos was the 0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:00.600 oldest of them, a guy who was known on like 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:08.120 in the discord as og and Og. He's a was 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:11.440 you know, in the Land of the Teenagers, the person 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:13.920 in the early twenties who can buy an AR fifteen 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:16.880 is king. And so this this guy is in his 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:19.920 early twenties. He's in the military, which he talks about. 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:23.240 He posts videos of himself like shooting guns and like 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:26.800 you know, saying racial slurs and like signposting to these 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:29.440 like you know, weird memes and stuff that they're all into, 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:32.960 which to them like makes him seem extremely cool. 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:33.280 Right. 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:36.960 It's one of those things when you kind of read 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:41.200 the different coverage of this, it's there's a little bit 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:45.040 of like weird culty stuff going on. I don't know 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:47.600 if i'd say that it was a cult in more 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:48.920 than just like in. 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:51.280 Every discord server is a cult exactly. 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:55.560 The insular online communities like this very often reproduce aspects 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:59.600 of cult dynamics. Right, Yeah, Hey, everybody, Robert here. We 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:03.080 had a lot audio error obviously in the recording. I 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:05.800 wanted to clarify this section because it was kind of garbled. 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:08.680 The name of the discord server they were in was 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:12.640 thug Shaker Central, which is potentially a reference to one 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:15.120 of a couple of things. You'll find some disagreement about 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:18.760 this online, but it's not really relevant. That's the discord 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:22.440 name that they've worked under. You get, like the overall 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:24.720 point of this, it's a bunch of like kids who 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:29.360 are fans of games. They're fans of like this YouTuber Oxide. 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:32.840 It's like a little group of dudes who got together 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:37.400 via fandom and the pandemic and over the course of 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:39.920 years developed like a shared culture, and part of the 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:43.200 shared culture is this guy og who's the older one 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:47.440 of them, you know, trying to keep them aware of 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:50.960 what he thought was important about kind of global politics, 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:55.240 and that particularly included aspects of battlefield conditions in Ukraine, 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:59.680 information about North Korean ballistic missiles, all of this kind 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:02.520 of stuf ugh that he had access to because spoilers 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:05.000 he was in an Air National Guard wing as an 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:09.800 intelligence and like it was in the intelligence sector of 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:11.840 like an Air National Guard ring, and he had a 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:16.440 security classification, right, And once this all got revealed, people 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:18.240 are like, why the fuck is a twenty one year 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:20.680 old because that's this guy's age have access to top 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:23.960 secret data, And everyone who knows anything about the way 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:27.879 our government classifies information was like most of the people 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:33.240 have access are like twenty Yeah, it fits our wars 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:36.160 fifty year olds. 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:39.959 Yeah, I think it just genuinely, like you know, like 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:42.359 if we've been around war and conflict of the people 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:44.080 who do it quite long, I think most people would 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:47.000 be genuinely burn away that most people doing it are children. 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:50.760 Yeah, And this has caused like obviously some problems before 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:54.040 for the Defense Department, but it's also like it's kind 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:57.119 of a thorny problem because like most of your workforce 0:17:57.240 --> 0:18:00.480 are always going to be young kids. These are spoiler's 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:05.359 shitty jobs often and that's the only one who will 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:07.040 do a lot of them. And also just like if 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:09.480 you're fighting a war, most of the people you have 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:11.560 that are going to be tasked the field intelligence are 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:13.000 going to be in this age. And see, it's not 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:15.120 at all weird that this guy had access to this shit. 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:19.280 What is weird is that so he starts off kind 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:23.359 of like arguing, you know, sometimes he'll bring up stuff 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:26.719 that he knows that's from classified documents while he's arguing, 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:28.679 you know, about the war in Ukraine or whatever with 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:31.480 these friends online, and then he starts doing like a 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:35.240 series of regular updates where he'll basically he'll type out 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:38.560 details from like a bunch of different top secret documents 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:41.480 and he's massive, long and apparently kind of hard to 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:45.439 read posts, and he'll just like post them into the 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:48.600 chat to kind of keep his friends abreast of what 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:51.480 he thinks is you know, important, But he gets frustrated 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:53.880 over time that like they're not reading this shit because 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:56.439 it's really boring and like kind of weird to just 0:18:56.520 --> 0:19:00.280 info up top secret info, and they don't. These kids 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:02.480 don't again, like these other folks are like in high school. 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:04.800 They don't really realize where he's getting the info or 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:07.240 what he has, but they do. The folks who do 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:09.840 pay attention recognize over time that like stuff will happen 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:12.320 in the real world that corresponds to something he posted 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:13.800 a couple of weeks ago, and they're like, wow, he 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:18.720 seems to have like actually really good information. Eventually, Og 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:22.720 gets frustrated because he's not no one's paying attention to 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:26.760 his posts, so he starts taking photos of just the 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:30.600 top secret documents themselves and posting them in the discord day. 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:31.760 Amazing. 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:35.680 Now this is unbelievably illegal. 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:39.920 Yeah, he really crosed a line there. I just don't 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:41.040 believe it'd be dumb. 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:43.600 By the way. It was illegal before, but this is 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:45.320 really illegal. 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:49.200 In terms of like allowing yourself making it so much 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:52.520 easier for the consequences you're fucking around to find you 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:55.560 like that. He crushed the rubicon right there. 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:59.280 Yeah, so, and now we have to face the hard 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:03.480 question is this guy an illegalist king or is he 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:06.000 more problematic? And this is this is the question that 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:11.720 we have to actually focus on now stop because it is. 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:16.040 It is, on one hand, pretty funny. It's exceedmely funny. 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:19.320 There's zero argument there among people who aren't ship heads. 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:20.399 It's very funny. 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:23.359 Yeah, it's very funny that like he could be doing 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:26.600 an illegalism without with zero intention of doing so. 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:30.760 Now, I do think there's a some people have kind 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:34.520 of errantly called him a whistleblower. I just not. 0:20:34.800 --> 0:20:37.680 That's not active. That is, that is not what he's doing. 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:42.080 He's a Nazi who's posting top secret information to impress 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:43.160 children online. 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:46.320 That's right, Garrison. I do think we have to. I 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:50.280 think we have to. Let's let's dig into that a 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:54.119 little bit, because a whistleblower is somebody who exposes information 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:59.160 from inside of an organization for some sort of purpose. Right, 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:02.720 they believe that what's going on is wrong. They think that, like, 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:06.440 they believe there's some sort of public interest in information 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:09.600 that is being kind of siloed inside of an organization 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:12.120 that they're a part of, and they release that organization. Right, fundamentally, 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:15.400 that's what a whistleblower is. This guy was telling his 0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:17.960 friends and this thirty person discord, do not post these 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:20.400 anywhere else. This is not stuff that you're allowed to share. 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:23.360 This is just for your eyes because we're friends, right. 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:28.679 He does not intend for this to get out. But 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:32.920 here's the thing. All of his friends in this group 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:36.119 are like dumb kids, and just like those people on 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:39.760 war Thunder, they start getting into arguments with people outside 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:42.800 of the discords yet and other discords discords. One of 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:45.880 them is a fan discord for some other YouTuber, one 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:49.359 of them is the discord is a Minecraft discord, and 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:52.000 they get into arguments with random other users about like 0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:54.680 the war in Ukraine and stuff. And when they're having 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:57.080 those arguments, they'll hear someone make a point and they'll 0:21:57.119 --> 0:22:00.359 think back to a top secret document that OGPO and 0:22:00.359 --> 0:22:02.480 they'll be like, well, I know you're wrong because I've 0:22:02.520 --> 0:22:06.639 seen like some CIA like satellite footage that like shows 0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:10.000 that this isn't accurate. And rather than being like, well, 0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:12.560 I guess I can't prove this person wrong on the 0:22:12.600 --> 0:22:16.919 internet without exposing my friend in our private discord to 0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:23.160 being imprisoned for the decade, they just grab top secret 0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:25.760 documents that he posted and they post them in these 0:22:25.800 --> 0:22:31.520 other discords. And that's how this shit breaks containment. Right now, 0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:34.919 It's one of those things I do want to note that, like, 0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:41.720 these are not generally speaking, super pleasant people. OG is 0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:43.520 the kind of guy who, like one of his big 0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:45.680 arguments that he tries to like make to these kids, 0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:47.720 he like claims that based on the top secret info 0:22:47.760 --> 0:22:51.239 he has, which he posts, nothing that proves this, the 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:54.680 mass shooting in Buffalo, New York by that Nazi at 0:22:54.680 --> 0:23:00.399 that majority you know, black frequented grocery store, that that 0:23:00.520 --> 0:23:03.560 was like a government plot to institute gun control, and shit, 0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:05.920 it was a false flag. So he's not just posting good. 0:23:06.040 --> 0:23:09.800 He's like lying here too, because obviously there's no intelligence 0:23:09.840 --> 0:23:12.440 to post backing that up. He just he's just kind 0:23:12.480 --> 0:23:15.040 of trying to It's a mix of he's trying to 0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:17.520 like prove that, you know, he's trying to make arguments 0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:20.600 about like what's happening, you know, in various overseas conflicts 0:23:20.680 --> 0:23:23.600 using at US intel, but he's also just like spreading 0:23:24.240 --> 0:23:27.760 different kind of conspiracy theories that he has to these 0:23:27.840 --> 0:23:30.720 kids who are by and large looking up to him. 0:23:31.320 --> 0:23:33.840 There's a couple like the Washington Post has done some 0:23:34.040 --> 0:23:35.719 really deep reporting where they talk to some of these 0:23:35.760 --> 0:23:37.679 kids who they're like, yeah, man, we loved him, Like 0:23:38.160 --> 0:23:41.399 when he realized this shit had broken containment, he like 0:23:41.480 --> 0:23:43.560 called us and we were all crying because we knew 0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:46.800 he was going to go to prison. Like there they 0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:51.960 seem legitimately distraught. Yeah, there's like lines like he said 0:23:52.000 --> 0:23:53.959 something had happened, and he prayed to God that this 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:56.520 event would not happen, but now it's in God's hands. 0:23:57.440 --> 0:24:01.199 Like these are like weirdo ashy. I hesitate to like 0:24:02.080 --> 0:24:05.960 condemn like the literal children too much because they're very vulnerable. 0:24:06.000 --> 0:24:09.920 This guy is like by This guy is a bad 0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:13.920 person who is deeply like in a very fucked up way, 0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:17.679 influencing this group of like thirty ish teenagers on the 0:24:17.760 --> 0:24:21.480 internet in his like weird politics. It's not great. Now 0:24:21.480 --> 0:24:23.960 that's separate from the question of like is there a 0:24:24.040 --> 0:24:26.480 value to these leagues, which we can talk about in 0:24:26.520 --> 0:24:29.440 a little bit. But so as we've talked about Eric 0:24:29.520 --> 0:24:32.760 Tohler tracks down where this is happening, tracks down like 0:24:32.960 --> 0:24:36.680 the name Og publishes a piece on Belling Cat. It's 0:24:36.720 --> 0:24:38.840 sort of ripped off by like I don't know it 0:24:38.880 --> 0:24:41.879 does like every other newspaper in the world, and then 0:24:41.960 --> 0:24:46.480 additional reporting is done Belling Cat and The New York 0:24:46.520 --> 0:24:49.840 Times team up and they eventually like track down and 0:24:49.920 --> 0:24:53.000 publish an article on who this guy is, an airman 0:24:53.240 --> 0:24:59.040 named Jack Tik Sarah, And they publish an article about 0:24:59.040 --> 0:25:03.680 that about a day before this guy gets arrested by 0:25:03.920 --> 0:25:07.280 the FBI. And it's one of those things, one of 0:25:07.320 --> 0:25:09.760 the if you if you look at the FBI Affid David, 0:25:10.840 --> 0:25:13.760 it kind of makes clear how the FBI cracked this 0:25:13.840 --> 0:25:16.919 guy down and found him because they did so, you know, 0:25:17.359 --> 0:25:20.679 using the resources they had before the Times did online. 0:25:20.800 --> 0:25:23.000 People have been going after The Times and Eric for 0:25:23.119 --> 0:25:26.520 like revealing this guy to the government, which is not 0:25:26.640 --> 0:25:29.960 the case. Basically, once it became clear what had gotten leaked, 0:25:30.400 --> 0:25:33.800 the FBI, because they had access to you know, the 0:25:33.920 --> 0:25:38.640 systems by which people utilize and get access to sensitive 0:25:38.640 --> 0:25:43.280 compartmented information, found out who had most recently like on 0:25:43.400 --> 0:25:45.920 the days that kind of corresponded to the leaks, pulled 0:25:46.000 --> 0:25:49.760 up information about that and narrowed it down to this 0:25:49.840 --> 0:25:53.680 guy Jack. They like it, and they were they had 0:25:53.720 --> 0:25:55.520 access to Like one of the things they did is 0:25:55.560 --> 0:25:58.760 they called Discord and talked to Discord, and Discord helped 0:25:58.800 --> 0:26:02.240 them track down where the leaks were originating. From. And 0:26:02.280 --> 0:26:04.960 then because they could see that the account that had 0:26:05.000 --> 0:26:08.040 posted you know, the top secret data originally was a 0:26:08.040 --> 0:26:10.520 paid account, they were able to like provide the FBI 0:26:10.680 --> 0:26:12.639 with this guy's home address and the shit. This is 0:26:12.640 --> 0:26:14.240 exactly what you'd expect for the f. 0:26:14.320 --> 0:26:16.840 Yeah, I mean, the FBI has a lot of non 0:26:16.960 --> 0:26:20.080 open source means to do this type of investigation. 0:26:20.400 --> 0:26:22.600 Yeah, they are not doing what Eric is doing and 0:26:22.680 --> 0:26:25.040 just kind of like clicking through shit for hours and 0:26:25.080 --> 0:26:27.639 hours and hours until they figure out where it's come from. 0:26:27.680 --> 0:26:30.560 Like they have they are the FBI, they have access 0:26:30.600 --> 0:26:32.680 to other things, and. 0:26:32.640 --> 0:26:34.800 It's what you'd expect from Discord too, right, Like they 0:26:35.320 --> 0:26:39.520 will comply with whatever they absolutely these are top secret 0:26:39.560 --> 0:26:41.840 that like if they don't have a legal choice here, 0:26:41.840 --> 0:26:44.000 they're a gigantic company, they're going to comply. 0:26:45.560 --> 0:26:48.000 So this is the kind of thing where like one 0:26:48.040 --> 0:26:50.880 of the there's this big argument I don't even even 0:26:50.920 --> 0:26:53.119 though it's big, but there's definitely like a weird chunk 0:26:53.119 --> 0:26:56.480 of the left that has like leaned on because the 0:26:56.560 --> 0:27:01.119 right has immediately started calling this guy a whistleblower. Fucking 0:27:01.119 --> 0:27:03.320 Marjorie Taylor Green was like he's a Christian and he's 0:27:03.359 --> 0:27:07.000 a leaker trying to expose crucial details about our government, 0:27:07.000 --> 0:27:09.720 and no he wasn't. He was like trying to fucking 0:27:09.800 --> 0:27:13.840 groom some teenagers and they posted it without his permission. 0:27:14.359 --> 0:27:16.520 And a lot of a lot of the more conspiracy 0:27:16.520 --> 0:27:20.760 type stuff is like trying to call out like you know, 0:27:20.800 --> 0:27:23.879 it's a lot of the more conspiracy related stuff is 0:27:24.240 --> 0:27:27.719 related to the Russian invasion of Ukraine and making it 0:27:27.760 --> 0:27:31.679 seem like the US is doing things that are wrong 0:27:31.800 --> 0:27:35.240 and secretly helping the Ukrainians too much, and it kind 0:27:35.240 --> 0:27:37.679 of it it plays into this weird, weird thing that 0:27:37.720 --> 0:27:42.520 people have against the way Biden's been handling the geopolitics 0:27:42.520 --> 0:27:45.480 around the Russian invasion, and it's like it it plays 0:27:45.480 --> 0:27:47.920 into a whole bunch of right wing talking points we've 0:27:47.920 --> 0:27:50.840 seen around Russia. You know, We've seen this type of 0:27:50.880 --> 0:27:55.200 stuff get talked about by Tucker Carlson quite often. There's 0:27:55.200 --> 0:27:57.120 there's a there's a whole bunch of like little nodes 0:27:57.200 --> 0:27:59.840 that this that that this touches on, and we even 0:28:00.240 --> 0:28:02.639 we even see stuff like that among like you know, 0:28:02.680 --> 0:28:06.520 people who are authoritarian communists, right who are who are 0:28:06.560 --> 0:28:10.760 still pro Russia despite Russia not being a communist country, 0:28:11.680 --> 0:28:14.719 but still like being like, oh, there, you know, this 0:28:14.800 --> 0:28:18.680 is something he's trying to expose the things that are 0:28:19.200 --> 0:28:21.600 people are doing wrong to Russia, and it's like okay, 0:28:21.720 --> 0:28:22.280 all right. 0:28:22.480 --> 0:28:25.240 Yeah, yeah, and to me it's one of them. And 0:28:25.240 --> 0:28:28.920 there's also you've gotten among some chunks of this attitude 0:28:28.960 --> 0:28:30.760 that like, well, you know, I don't care why he 0:28:30.840 --> 0:28:33.320 did it or like what he is in his personal life. 0:28:33.359 --> 0:28:36.919 Any leak you know of the US military machine is 0:28:36.960 --> 0:28:39.360 good and should be you know, protected. And it's like, 0:28:39.400 --> 0:28:42.400 for one thing, this guy like nobody knew where these 0:28:42.440 --> 0:28:44.400 things were coming from. There was a vested need in 0:28:44.480 --> 0:28:46.680 sort of figuring out what the origin point was to 0:28:46.680 --> 0:28:50.200 figure out if they were accurate. But for like another thing, 0:28:50.280 --> 0:28:52.960 I don't know, man, you can argue about like what 0:28:53.120 --> 0:28:56.400 point you know, the digging, whether or not, like the 0:28:57.320 --> 0:28:59.880 it's ethical to dig this shit back to its source. 0:29:01.080 --> 0:29:03.280 I would argue that like people also have a right 0:29:03.360 --> 0:29:06.160 to know if there's some sort of fucking like like 0:29:06.520 --> 0:29:08.840 if the documents were fake or altered in some way, 0:29:08.880 --> 0:29:10.680 there was a reason to be trying to figure out 0:29:10.720 --> 0:29:12.920 the providence of this shit. But more to the point, 0:29:12.960 --> 0:29:16.440 like I think it's good to have access to like 0:29:16.640 --> 0:29:19.880 data from inside of our military. I think that's that's 0:29:19.920 --> 0:29:22.840 broadly positive. And when I look at these data, or 0:29:22.880 --> 0:29:24.680 when I look at what's been leaked, I don't think 0:29:24.720 --> 0:29:27.680 most of it's you know, one of the concerns that's 0:29:27.680 --> 0:29:29.680 always that always exist when you're talking about a leak 0:29:29.680 --> 0:29:32.200 of data is like, is this going to expose like 0:29:32.320 --> 0:29:35.600 potentially innocent people to any kind of arm And there 0:29:35.640 --> 0:29:38.040 is a potential for that with some of this, because 0:29:38.040 --> 0:29:41.480 some of it dealt with Ukrainian military readiness for the 0:29:41.600 --> 0:29:45.120 upcoming offensive, and like, well, like I don't really care 0:29:45.320 --> 0:29:49.280 if some guy inside the Kremlin who's like a member 0:29:49.280 --> 0:29:51.200 of the Russian General Staff and a double I don't 0:29:51.200 --> 0:29:53.240 care if that guy, like something bad happens to him. 0:29:53.360 --> 0:29:57.480 He's probably not a great dude. But but I do 0:29:57.600 --> 0:30:00.440 care about like a bunch of random Ukrainian soldier potentially 0:30:00.480 --> 0:30:02.840 getting harmed. Now, I will say, from what I can 0:30:02.840 --> 0:30:04.440 tell from this, I think the odds of that are 0:30:04.480 --> 0:30:07.000 pretty low. It looks like this has impacted kind of 0:30:07.040 --> 0:30:11.360 the timetable for the counter offensive, but I don't know 0:30:11.400 --> 0:30:14.320 that it's I haven't seen any evidence that it's exposed 0:30:14.360 --> 0:30:17.240 things in a way that's like going to cause loss 0:30:17.240 --> 0:30:19.320 of life, although it's a little bit unclear as to 0:30:19.360 --> 0:30:22.800 whether that not that might happen. But also, while I 0:30:22.840 --> 0:30:25.080 think it's accurate to say, I'm not saying evidence that 0:30:25.160 --> 0:30:28.120 like a lot of people's safety have been harmed by 0:30:28.120 --> 0:30:31.960 these leaks, it's also not you know, what we're It's 0:30:32.000 --> 0:30:34.480 not anything like what Snowden did or what Manning did. 0:30:34.560 --> 0:30:39.080 Right again, Manning revealed, you know, videos like the collateral 0:30:39.160 --> 0:30:43.920 murder video, evidence of like breakdowns of order and things 0:30:43.920 --> 0:30:46.000 that I think are accurate to call war crimes that 0:30:46.040 --> 0:30:49.960 were being kind of hidden by our government, whereas Snowden 0:30:50.120 --> 0:30:53.200 revealed intense details about an n Essay spying program. All 0:30:53.200 --> 0:30:56.480 of that's extremely relevant to the average American. Most of 0:30:56.480 --> 0:31:00.320 this is just kind of like wonky inside base fall 0:31:00.400 --> 0:31:04.240 military stuff, which again I'm not like sad that it's 0:31:04.360 --> 0:31:08.480 gotten out, but it's also not It really does seem 0:31:08.520 --> 0:31:10.880 like a bunch of shit that like a guy pulled 0:31:10.920 --> 0:31:13.960 out based on his own kind of like weird interests. 0:31:14.120 --> 0:31:18.000 It's not there's not like a strong unifying theme around them. 0:31:18.040 --> 0:31:20.240 And again, most of it's most of it's shit that's 0:31:20.240 --> 0:31:22.520 not going to be interesting to the average person. One 0:31:22.520 --> 0:31:25.320 of the documents I just read an article about, because like, 0:31:25.560 --> 0:31:28.080 we don't entirely know everything that was leaked right now, 0:31:28.360 --> 0:31:30.440 right there's been there's like the Post in the time 0:31:30.560 --> 0:31:32.880 seem to have a pretty complete archive of what was leaked, 0:31:32.880 --> 0:31:36.040 but they haven't published anything because you know, they're reading 0:31:36.080 --> 0:31:38.680 through it and you know, actually reporting it out. One 0:31:38.680 --> 0:31:40.320 of the articles that just came out was about the 0:31:40.720 --> 0:31:44.480 fact that the Ukrainians made some overtures to the Kurdish 0:31:44.520 --> 0:31:50.920 led self administration in in northern northeast Syria, to Rojava, 0:31:50.920 --> 0:31:54.080 to the SDF in order to talk about the potential 0:31:54.120 --> 0:31:59.880 for them attacking Russian assets in elsewhere in Syria. When 0:32:00.000 --> 0:32:02.760 and this has kind of gotten out over like Twitter, 0:32:02.840 --> 0:32:05.920 it's often been like described as, oh, the Ukrainians were 0:32:05.960 --> 0:32:07.720 going to team up with the Courage to attacked Russia 0:32:07.800 --> 0:32:12.160 in Syria, like like this was an actual, like serious plan. 0:32:12.600 --> 0:32:15.240 Would you actually see the document? It seems a lot 0:32:15.360 --> 0:32:19.480 less inciting than that. Basically, what happened was some folks 0:32:19.480 --> 0:32:23.000 on the Ukrainian General staff or whatever were like looking 0:32:23.000 --> 0:32:25.440 into the possibility, Hey, you know, is there any way 0:32:25.480 --> 0:32:28.120 that we could kind of anything we could pay the 0:32:28.240 --> 0:32:30.560 Kurds over in Syria to carry out an attack on 0:32:30.640 --> 0:32:34.200 the Russians, and apparently they had access to somebody who 0:32:34.240 --> 0:32:36.480 claimed to be in the SDF at least, and that 0:32:36.520 --> 0:32:38.880 person was like, we might be able to do something 0:32:39.160 --> 0:32:41.440 if you can get us some anti air defenses, right, 0:32:42.440 --> 0:32:45.360 which I don't know how Ukraine could possibly ship meaningful 0:32:45.400 --> 0:32:48.960 anti air defenses to northeast Syria. It's kind of bordered 0:32:49.000 --> 0:32:51.640 on all sides. There is some stuff if you're a 0:32:51.640 --> 0:32:53.520 walk in the region. There's some interesting stuff about this, 0:32:53.560 --> 0:32:56.400 which is that the SDF basically responded, like we could 0:32:56.400 --> 0:32:59.800 potentially do this, we couldn't attack Russian assets that are 0:32:59.840 --> 0:33:03.560 within the borders of the self administration. Russians are acting 0:33:03.600 --> 0:33:08.200 as peacekeepers there between Turkey and you know, it's kind 0:33:08.280 --> 0:33:12.040 of desire to invade the entire region. They're not great 0:33:12.160 --> 0:33:14.960 as peacekeepers. The Armenians will tell you that Russian soldiers 0:33:15.000 --> 0:33:18.360 are not great, great givers. But the SDF didn't want 0:33:18.360 --> 0:33:20.600 to like ship where they were eating, right, so there 0:33:20.680 --> 0:33:22.760 was some like debate about where they might be able 0:33:22.800 --> 0:33:24.640 to attack. One of the things that is really interesting 0:33:24.640 --> 0:33:28.400 about this week is that apparently Ukraine like talk to 0:33:28.440 --> 0:33:31.800 Turkey about this because obviously the Turks consider the core 0:33:31.840 --> 0:33:35.160 of the SDF the YPG to be a terrorist organization. 0:33:36.320 --> 0:33:39.000 But when Ukraine was talking to them, they're like, hey, 0:33:39.040 --> 0:33:42.160 we might basically bribe these people to carry out an 0:33:42.160 --> 0:33:45.480 attack on Russian assets elsewhere in Syria. Turkey was like, okay, 0:33:45.480 --> 0:33:47.239 well don't do it here here here, because that's kind 0:33:47.240 --> 0:33:49.840 of close to some our guys might like that. That 0:33:49.880 --> 0:33:53.480 party is interesting. But again, none of this matters all 0:33:53.520 --> 0:33:56.560 that much because nothing happened as far as we know. 0:33:56.640 --> 0:34:01.480 In December, Zelenski was like, no, don't proceed with looking 0:34:01.520 --> 0:34:03.720 into this. This is the kind of thing like the 0:34:03.840 --> 0:34:06.520 US military has, like plans for what happens if you 0:34:06.520 --> 0:34:08.440 have to fight Canada. This is the kind of thing 0:34:08.480 --> 0:34:11.200 defense departments do. And as far as I can tell, 0:34:11.280 --> 0:34:13.400 there's no evidence that went much for them, like a 0:34:13.520 --> 0:34:16.480 series of phone calls right which, by the way, the 0:34:16.520 --> 0:34:19.760 SDF denies ever happened. I don't know what exactly occurred. 0:34:19.800 --> 0:34:21.719 I don't know if it's hard for me to tell. 0:34:21.760 --> 0:34:23.719 Did the Ukrainians were they talking to someone who was 0:34:23.760 --> 0:34:28.200 actually a representative of the sdf's like military hierarchy, or 0:34:28.320 --> 0:34:30.640 was this like some guy that they thought was because 0:34:30.680 --> 0:34:33.359 maybe Ukraine doesn't have great context into the air like 0:34:33.600 --> 0:34:35.759 or did the US, And it's it's not kind of clear. 0:34:35.840 --> 0:34:37.960 Did the US maybe like hook them up with somebody, 0:34:39.200 --> 0:34:40.960 but it doesn't like at the at the end of 0:34:40.960 --> 0:34:44.120 the day, you can argue, as someone who follows the region, 0:34:44.160 --> 0:34:49.000 I find this kind of interesting. It's not exactly like groundbreaking, 0:34:49.320 --> 0:34:52.640 you know, in its importance, because nothing happened, no one 0:34:52.760 --> 0:34:55.879 did anything. This is like some guys in Ukraine thought 0:34:55.920 --> 0:34:58.919 about doing a thing and then decided not to, which 0:34:58.960 --> 0:35:02.360 is you know, potentially interesting context. But we're not talking 0:35:02.400 --> 0:35:04.279 about the manning or the snowed in lakes here. 0:35:05.640 --> 0:35:08.920 Yeah, yeah, it's yeah, it's that particular document I think 0:35:09.000 --> 0:35:12.160 is kind of clearly they have access to people who 0:35:12.160 --> 0:35:15.839 have formally fought in Syria with the YPG right there. 0:35:16.080 --> 0:35:19.200 There are probably dozens of them now fighting in Ukraine 0:35:19.280 --> 0:35:22.120 without a volunteer units. Like it's it's not hard to 0:35:22.120 --> 0:35:24.240 see how this thought came up. But like you said, 0:35:24.280 --> 0:35:26.799 nothing really happened. It was just some people like spitbolling. 0:35:27.600 --> 0:35:31.319 So I don't know. There's some other like bits and 0:35:31.360 --> 0:35:34.080 stuff in here that are kind of interesting. One of 0:35:34.080 --> 0:35:37.040 them was there was a document in there about how 0:35:37.080 --> 0:35:40.680 the US had kind of like interfered in peace negotiations 0:35:40.800 --> 0:35:45.200 in Yemen due to like kind of concerns that they 0:35:45.280 --> 0:35:47.440 had about the fact that China was kind of brokering 0:35:47.520 --> 0:35:50.440 a degree of peace between the Houthi rebels in between 0:35:50.560 --> 0:35:54.760 the Saudi government. There's definitely some like slightly some somewhat 0:35:54.800 --> 0:35:56.840 shady shit from the US and there, but at the 0:35:56.920 --> 0:35:59.600 end of the day, it didn't derail the peace negotiations. 0:35:59.640 --> 0:36:02.560 It's just like, yeah, they were like like like and 0:36:02.640 --> 0:36:04.560 a lot of it's like that where it's kind of 0:36:04.560 --> 0:36:08.080 like this is useful context. I'm glad historians or journalists 0:36:08.160 --> 0:36:10.279 reporting it out will have that. But at the end 0:36:10.320 --> 0:36:12.359 of the day, like the fact that like, oh hey, 0:36:12.400 --> 0:36:15.279 at one point in these peace negotiations the US was like, 0:36:16.120 --> 0:36:18.360 you know, being being kind of a kind of a 0:36:18.400 --> 0:36:23.520 dick isn't exactly like shocking. You know, It's not going 0:36:23.520 --> 0:36:27.359 to like change your overall concept of what's happening over there. 0:36:27.440 --> 0:36:30.680 It's not stuff that like is most of it's not 0:36:30.719 --> 0:36:34.600 stuff that's like massively important important. It is really interesting 0:36:34.719 --> 0:36:38.800 that the detail that are our defense establishment apparently has 0:36:39.880 --> 0:36:42.359 from within the Russian government I do think it's worth 0:36:42.400 --> 0:36:44.759 noting because we're talking like when we talk about sort 0:36:44.800 --> 0:36:48.880 of the the provenance of these and the reliability of 0:36:48.920 --> 0:36:52.879 these leaks. As they regard the war in Ukraine, there's 0:36:52.920 --> 0:36:55.000 been a lot of talk about like, oh, this reveals 0:36:55.040 --> 0:36:57.439 that like the Ukraine doesn't have the capacity to carry 0:36:57.440 --> 0:37:00.279 out a counter offensive, or that the war has gone 0:37:00.360 --> 0:37:03.279 much worse for them than they think. It is kind 0:37:03.280 --> 0:37:08.640 of worth noting that, like, prior to the expanded Russian invasion, 0:37:08.760 --> 0:37:13.040 all US military intelligence suggested that the Ukrainian government was 0:37:13.080 --> 0:37:16.640 going to fold in a matter of days. So even 0:37:16.680 --> 0:37:18.640 though a lot of this is top secret info, that 0:37:18.680 --> 0:37:21.440 doesn't mean it's like one hundred percent accurate. Right Like 0:37:21.719 --> 0:37:24.319 our guys, like think back to the Iraq War. Our 0:37:24.400 --> 0:37:30.400 dudes get shipped right und constantly. It is. Again, this 0:37:30.560 --> 0:37:33.399 is all really interesting, And I will say two things. 0:37:33.440 --> 0:37:36.760 I think it's very funny that this this guy nuked 0:37:36.800 --> 0:37:40.239 his entire life basically to impress children on a discord. 0:37:40.920 --> 0:37:43.759 I think it's extremely funny. I have laughed many a 0:37:43.800 --> 0:37:47.279 time at this. I also think it's like, like, as 0:37:47.280 --> 0:37:49.759 someone who is interested in this stuff, interesting that and 0:37:49.920 --> 0:37:52.759 good that we have this context. I don't think any 0:37:52.760 --> 0:37:57.200 of this is like massively surprising or shocking. Like the 0:37:57.480 --> 0:38:01.920 shit that's in that defense industry or intelligence agency analysis 0:38:01.960 --> 0:38:06.359 of the Ukrainian position right now is like stuff that 0:38:06.400 --> 0:38:08.640 you would know if you were paying attention to the 0:38:08.680 --> 0:38:11.960 good ocent aggregators who have been covering the war, and 0:38:12.000 --> 0:38:14.239 if you've been like just reading good reporting on what's 0:38:14.280 --> 0:38:17.000 going on over there. I'll read a little bit of 0:38:17.000 --> 0:38:20.520 a summary from an article that's kind of going over 0:38:20.560 --> 0:38:22.640 some of the other stuff that appears to have been leaked. 0:38:23.239 --> 0:38:26.520 One details information apparently obtained through US eavesdropping on Russia's 0:38:26.560 --> 0:38:29.520 Foreign intelligence service and suggests that China approved the provision 0:38:29.520 --> 0:38:31.560 of lethal aid to Russia and its war in Ukraine 0:38:31.560 --> 0:38:34.480 early this year and planned to disguise its military equipment 0:38:34.520 --> 0:38:38.600 as civilian items. Another includes details of a test conducted 0:38:38.600 --> 0:38:41.239 by Beijing on one of its advanced experimental missiles, the 0:38:41.320 --> 0:38:44.560 DF twenty seven Hypersonic light vehicle, on February twenty fifth. 0:38:44.719 --> 0:38:46.880 It says the vehicle flew for twelve minutes across thirteen 0:38:46.960 --> 0:38:49.640 hundred miles and that it possessed a high probability of 0:38:49.680 --> 0:38:54.000 penetrating US ballistic missile defense systems. The documents contain new 0:38:54.040 --> 0:38:57.000 details about a Chinese spy balloon dubbed Killeen twenty three 0:38:57.040 --> 0:38:59.759 by US intelligence agencies, that earlier this year flew over 0:38:59.760 --> 0:39:03.359 the UNI United States. They detail sophisticated surveillance equipment. US 0:39:03.440 --> 0:39:06.200 intelligence agencies were aware of up to four additional Chinese 0:39:06.239 --> 0:39:10.200 by balloons. The documents a and another previously unreported revelation, 0:39:11.080 --> 0:39:13.560 and so let's kind of break that down. One thing 0:39:13.600 --> 0:39:18.360 we have here is basically an argument through from the 0:39:18.520 --> 0:39:22.280 US that based on their intercepts, they believe that China 0:39:22.320 --> 0:39:26.360 has approved provisioning weaponry, selling weaponry to Russia and disguising 0:39:26.400 --> 0:39:31.040 it as civilian items. That doesn't mean they have done this. 0:39:31.280 --> 0:39:35.400 It means that, like there's sigent that someone in our 0:39:35.440 --> 0:39:38.440 government has that says that they were. That could be 0:39:38.600 --> 0:39:41.360 disinformation from them. It could be out of date. It 0:39:41.360 --> 0:39:44.040 could be something like with this Ukraine and Syria thing 0:39:44.040 --> 0:39:47.480 that they talked about doing and then didn't do. It's interesting, 0:39:47.880 --> 0:39:50.120 I would say, if you are a defense industry reporter, 0:39:50.200 --> 0:39:52.920 it's something that woul could should definitely spur you to 0:39:53.000 --> 0:39:56.960 further reporting, because like that's really relevant if that's occurring. 0:39:57.760 --> 0:40:00.480 But it's not the final word on the matter. Meanwhile, 0:40:00.520 --> 0:40:03.120 you've got this thing on like, Yeah, this hypersonic missile 0:40:03.120 --> 0:40:07.919 the Chinese had is good at shoot and shit. Theoretically, 0:40:08.840 --> 0:40:11.280 this is you know, the kind of thing that's interesting 0:40:11.320 --> 0:40:15.359 and I think is probably more accurate than you know, 0:40:15.920 --> 0:40:19.319 talking about the China providing lethal aid because you can 0:40:19.400 --> 0:40:22.560 kind of you know, theoretically you're looking at actual like 0:40:22.719 --> 0:40:25.040 data on how the missile has performed. It just seems 0:40:25.080 --> 0:40:28.319 like it's something that you've got more fidelity on. But 0:40:28.400 --> 0:40:30.600 this is again to kind of contrast it with like 0:40:30.680 --> 0:40:34.399 the snowed and Manning leaks. Well, what do you do 0:40:34.440 --> 0:40:37.000 if like the NSSAY is spying on people? Well, you 0:40:37.040 --> 0:40:40.960 could at least attempt to pass laws that restrict their 0:40:41.000 --> 0:40:43.600 ability to do that. Right, What do you do if 0:40:43.600 --> 0:40:46.759 there have been like war crimes committed by your military 0:40:46.760 --> 0:40:48.120 that were then cover it up, Well, you can at 0:40:48.160 --> 0:40:50.400 least attempt to prosecute people. What do you do if 0:40:50.400 --> 0:40:53.480 some other countries got a better missile? Well, there's not 0:40:53.520 --> 0:40:55.879 a whole lot for you to do sitting at home 0:40:55.960 --> 0:41:01.000 and like New York City or you know, fucking Austin, Texas, Right, Like, like, 0:41:01.400 --> 0:41:04.319 what are we to do about China's hyper I don't know. 0:41:04.560 --> 0:41:07.680 My assumption, generally speaking, not that this is an interesting 0:41:07.680 --> 0:41:10.080 but my assumption generally speaking is that when you're talking 0:41:10.080 --> 0:41:13.000 about Russia, China, the United States, we can all murder 0:41:13.080 --> 0:41:15.759 each other if we wanted to write, like we've all 0:41:15.800 --> 0:41:19.160 got real nice missiles at this point. And it's this, 0:41:19.280 --> 0:41:22.120 you know, the Chinese by balloon stuff is like interesting. 0:41:22.480 --> 0:41:24.680 I don't think anyone's surprised by this. Like we knew 0:41:24.680 --> 0:41:27.560 there was a spy balloon. I assumed it had sophisticated 0:41:27.640 --> 0:41:32.000 surveillance technique. It's again, it's interesting that there were four 0:41:32.080 --> 0:41:34.239 other spy balloons in the area. But we simply know 0:41:34.320 --> 0:41:36.759 from older reporting that this happened like three or four 0:41:36.760 --> 0:41:39.359 times while Trump was in office too, So like, yeah, 0:41:39.400 --> 0:41:41.479 this is something we've known about. There's been reporting about. 0:41:41.600 --> 0:41:45.640 This is corroboration. That's interesting. Again, none of this is 0:41:45.680 --> 0:41:48.759 really like a sea change in our understanding of any 0:41:48.800 --> 0:41:51.799 of these conflicts. It is interesting context. Some of it's 0:41:51.800 --> 0:41:55.040 being blown up, you know, into stuff that it isn't. 0:41:55.239 --> 0:41:57.560 There's reporting and like the number of US servicemen in 0:41:57.680 --> 0:42:00.440 Ukraine that's being like spun is like we've got boots 0:42:00.440 --> 0:42:02.160 on the ground there, and it's like, well, they're like 0:42:02.239 --> 0:42:05.319 embassy guards and stuff. There's like twenty nine dudes that 0:42:05.400 --> 0:42:09.719 this like confirmed. Michael, Yeah, yeah, this confirms there's not 0:42:09.840 --> 0:42:12.279 a lot of US guys on the ground there. 0:42:13.120 --> 0:42:15.440 You send a lot of people when we're doing wars. 0:42:15.480 --> 0:42:17.920 But yeah, like every embassy in the world has a 0:42:17.920 --> 0:42:21.239 contingent of marines who make sure that it doesn't just 0:42:21.280 --> 0:42:25.520 get Yeah. I don't want to say bang ghazied, but yeah, yeah, 0:42:25.520 --> 0:42:29.319 you know big Ghazi. Yeah, that's fine. And this is 0:42:29.360 --> 0:42:31.600 not new news to anyone who's been paying attention. But 0:42:31.640 --> 0:42:34.359 if you are Michael Tracy, this is brain melting shit. 0:42:34.800 --> 0:42:39.360 Michael Tracy's a weirdo quasi left journalist who like early 0:42:39.440 --> 0:42:41.600 on in the war he didn't want to go into 0:42:41.719 --> 0:42:45.000 Ukraine very much, but he like hung out in Poland 0:42:45.040 --> 0:42:48.840 and took pictures of like US soldiers and like a 0:42:48.920 --> 0:42:52.080 facility that they were had been in for years and 0:42:52.239 --> 0:42:54.600 was like, look, you know, this is evidence of the 0:42:54.640 --> 0:42:56.920 secret US support. And it's like, guys, I mean, for 0:42:56.960 --> 0:42:59.439 one thing, like look at this, Look at how much 0:42:59.480 --> 0:43:02.280 shit just leaked out because some kid wanted to impress children. 0:43:02.520 --> 0:43:05.840 If there were like like secret massive formations of US 0:43:05.880 --> 0:43:10.400 troops or even large like forces of US specops guys 0:43:10.719 --> 0:43:13.920 carrying out operations in Ukraine. How good do you think 0:43:14.000 --> 0:43:17.279 they'd be at keeping that shit secret? Right? For one thing? 0:43:17.400 --> 0:43:20.600 Like Special Forces guys get killed all the fucking time, 0:43:20.840 --> 0:43:23.879 Like they get killed, they get overrun, like like's it's 0:43:23.920 --> 0:43:26.720 a terrible risk for US to just like send Seal 0:43:26.800 --> 0:43:29.960 Team six in to fight the Russians when spoilers, the 0:43:30.000 --> 0:43:33.560 Ukrainians have really good Special Forces guys every bit as 0:43:33.600 --> 0:43:36.440 good as ours actually with in a lot of cases 0:43:36.560 --> 0:43:39.479 more experience fighting this kind of war. And we're given 0:43:39.480 --> 0:43:41.480 And it's like, if you want to talk about US involvement, 0:43:41.719 --> 0:43:45.280 we're giving them their weapons. Like we're involved fucking plenty. 0:43:45.480 --> 0:43:47.400 There's just not much of a point in US like 0:43:47.760 --> 0:43:52.080 sending the green fucking Berets into Bakamut, right, Like why 0:43:53.320 --> 0:43:56.400 that doesn't That doesn't help us at all, That doesn't 0:43:56.480 --> 0:43:59.880 like help our government. That's not like good for the military. 0:44:00.040 --> 0:44:05.359 It would be stupid anyway, whatever, anything else to talk 0:44:05.400 --> 0:44:05.879 about here? 0:44:06.239 --> 0:44:08.440 Do we want to talk about the Israel one? 0:44:09.280 --> 0:44:11.280 Oh yeah, no, this is one of the interest although 0:44:11.280 --> 0:44:14.280 it's not again basically one of the things that leaked. 0:44:14.320 --> 0:44:16.600 Is like the US is spying on all of its allies, 0:44:16.680 --> 0:44:19.680 which this leaks every couple of years. We're always spying 0:44:19.719 --> 0:44:24.279 on our allies, including Israel. Israel has spied on US 0:44:24.320 --> 0:44:27.319 a bunch. That's why they have nuclear weapons. Yeah, James, 0:44:27.400 --> 0:44:28.120 you want to talk about this. 0:44:28.320 --> 0:44:32.480 Yeah, So this is a document that basically what it 0:44:32.760 --> 0:44:36.560 alleges is that what has been alleged, perhaps incorrectly, is 0:44:36.840 --> 0:44:41.000 that it was encouraging Mossad staff to attend protests against 0:44:41.040 --> 0:44:46.440 net Yahoo when he was attempting his liketo golpe like 0:44:46.480 --> 0:44:49.080 his coup from within, what do you want to call that? Right, 0:44:50.719 --> 0:44:54.080 he was attempting to centralize power, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:44:54.480 --> 0:44:58.040 Now it's a LEAQD. Like you said, it's a document. 0:44:59.000 --> 0:45:02.560 It says that I'm quoting from it, or I'm quoting 0:45:02.560 --> 0:45:05.120 from reporting on it. At least senior leaders of the 0:45:05.160 --> 0:45:09.000 Mossad spy Service advocated for Mossad officials and Israeli citizens 0:45:09.040 --> 0:45:13.040 to protest the new Israeli governments, proposed judicial reforms, including 0:45:13.080 --> 0:45:16.160 several explicit calls to action that decried the Israeli government. 0:45:16.239 --> 0:45:24.200 According to Singet Signals Intelligence, the Infamy, So actually Netanyahu 0:45:24.320 --> 0:45:28.000 himself has been asked about this, and it's worth he 0:45:28.040 --> 0:45:31.160 appointed the Mossad director, a guy called David I think 0:45:31.160 --> 0:45:37.160 it's Baynya, and he has also he's on the record 0:45:37.160 --> 0:45:40.640 previously in news media before this saying that he had 0:45:40.680 --> 0:45:45.279 clarified to Mosad personnel who could attend protests and who 0:45:45.280 --> 0:45:49.480 could not attend, like because at a certain point in 0:45:50.000 --> 0:45:52.080 any of these things, that you're not allowed to be 0:45:52.160 --> 0:45:56.319 explicitly political, right folks, even at a very low point 0:45:56.360 --> 0:45:58.560 in the US military, Like you're not supposed to say 0:45:58.560 --> 0:46:04.799 and do certain things. So there was a petition that 0:46:04.840 --> 0:46:07.480 went out earlier, and again this has already been reported. 0:46:08.880 --> 0:46:12.680 They that were sent by intelligence offices basically saying like, 0:46:13.120 --> 0:46:16.880 we'll go on strike. And there had been again like 0:46:17.360 --> 0:46:21.920 widely reported instances other Israeli military people saying that they 0:46:21.920 --> 0:46:23.720 would go on strike or not shot up for work 0:46:24.280 --> 0:46:28.600 if these judicial reforms went ahead. So I think again 0:46:28.680 --> 0:46:33.720 it's been kind of we've really stretched. What was interesting 0:46:33.800 --> 0:46:36.320 I thought was that it had a Feiser label on 0:46:38.080 --> 0:46:42.160 FI series to Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, and if people 0:46:42.200 --> 0:46:49.200 aren't familiar, basically it allows US intelligence to wire tap things, 0:46:49.280 --> 0:46:51.920 which they can do it without warrant if it doesn't 0:46:51.960 --> 0:46:56.719 include a US person. So a US person is not 0:46:56.920 --> 0:46:59.560 just a citizen, but also maybe a permanent resident something 0:46:59.640 --> 0:47:02.919 like that, right, like like a person who has more 0:47:03.000 --> 0:47:06.440 rights than others in the United States. But in this 0:47:06.520 --> 0:47:08.320 case they seem to have got a fis a warrant, 0:47:09.239 --> 0:47:11.879 which it's very easy to get, right. It's like a 0:47:11.880 --> 0:47:15.160 closed courtroom procedure where they go to a judge and 0:47:15.280 --> 0:47:19.239 like it's not like an adversarial argument. Now there's no 0:47:19.280 --> 0:47:22.080 one who argues that you should get the warrant, and 0:47:22.160 --> 0:47:26.160 so in practice they nearly always get these warrants. But 0:47:26.680 --> 0:47:28.600 what it showed they have to just prove it its 0:47:28.640 --> 0:47:31.960 intelligence asset of a foreign power. And so it showed 0:47:31.960 --> 0:47:34.040 that at some point they went for a judge and said, like, hey, 0:47:34.280 --> 0:47:40.000 you know, we need to wiretap some kind of some 0:47:40.080 --> 0:47:43.480 kind of communications or I'm using wiretap in the broad 0:47:43.520 --> 0:47:47.759 sense or specific sense. But it's interesting I think that 0:47:47.760 --> 0:47:51.319 that they have some intelligence asset in the United States 0:47:51.360 --> 0:47:53.640 and said, hey, we know this an Israeli intelligence asset. 0:47:53.920 --> 0:47:56.160 And to be clear that this could just be shits 0:47:56.200 --> 0:48:00.760 going in and out of the embassy that they've decided 0:48:00.760 --> 0:48:03.319 that they needed to wyattap that and keep an eye 0:48:03.360 --> 0:48:08.680 on that now, given given that like it's Rael's foreign 0:48:08.680 --> 0:48:11.080 policies has been talking terrible for decades, but net and 0:48:11.160 --> 0:48:14.600 Yahoo is a new degree of crazy. Uh it is. 0:48:14.719 --> 0:48:20.640 It's unsurprising that like anyone concerned with I guess international 0:48:20.680 --> 0:48:23.759 relations would would want to know more about what is 0:48:23.800 --> 0:48:24.239 going on. 0:48:24.719 --> 0:48:27.959 And again like that's it's interesting context. As you noted, 0:48:27.960 --> 0:48:31.680 a lot of this had been reported out previously, So yeah, 0:48:31.719 --> 0:48:38.280 we're it's it's just like it's it's it's all interesting again. 0:48:38.320 --> 0:48:41.239 I'm my, my, my, My attitude here is like I'm 0:48:41.239 --> 0:48:43.680 glad this information is out and I don't really care 0:48:43.760 --> 0:48:47.080 what happens to Jack tech Sierra. Like yeah, in my 0:48:47.280 --> 0:48:52.000 in my ideal world, the policing infrastructure that's come down 0:48:52.040 --> 0:48:57.719 on this kid would not exist. But he made this 0:48:57.800 --> 0:49:01.480 decision knowing full well what happened when you leak top secretly, 0:49:01.480 --> 0:49:03.600 Like it's one of those things where it's like just 0:49:03.600 --> 0:49:05.719 just within the context of shit that's fucked up in 0:49:05.760 --> 0:49:08.200 our country. The thing I'm going to be upset about 0:49:08.320 --> 0:49:12.120 is not a kid leaking top secret info to win 0:49:12.160 --> 0:49:16.759 an online argument and then having it blow up on him, right, Like, 0:49:17.200 --> 0:49:19.239 especially not a kid who's a fucking Nazi. At the 0:49:19.280 --> 0:49:22.200 end of the day, he did something that was obviously done. 0:49:22.239 --> 0:49:25.120 It's like if some guy hops on Twitter under his 0:49:25.160 --> 0:49:28.880 real name and starts posting pictures of heroin and saying, hey, guys, 0:49:29.440 --> 0:49:32.320 this is my name and address. I'm selling hella heroin. 0:49:32.560 --> 0:49:36.120 Here's photos of a felony quantity of heroin and guns. Well, 0:49:36.280 --> 0:49:39.560 I think heroin should be legal, but I'm not gonna, like, 0:49:39.880 --> 0:49:41.839 I'm not gonna like make a crusade out of that 0:49:41.880 --> 0:49:45.360 guy's arrest because that's stupid. Like, like, you know what 0:49:45.480 --> 0:49:48.319 happens if you post, hey, here is my at home 0:49:48.360 --> 0:49:51.799 address and name. Here is all of the heroin I'm selling. Yeah, 0:49:51.840 --> 0:49:55.799 you'll probably get in trouble because you have posted online 0:49:56.040 --> 0:49:59.279 a serious crime. Obviously that could be a problem for you. 0:49:59.680 --> 0:50:02.600 That's not my primary concern in the world when people 0:50:02.640 --> 0:50:05.640 do really stupid shit and it blows up on them 0:50:06.040 --> 0:50:08.799 and it's like again, leakers, you look at the way 0:50:09.160 --> 0:50:12.719 Manning proceeded, You look at the way Snowden proceeded. They 0:50:12.719 --> 0:50:15.160 were aware of the danger of what they were doing. 0:50:15.200 --> 0:50:17.680 I mean, you know, Chelsea did years in fucking prison. 0:50:17.760 --> 0:50:23.200 Snowden fled the country. That's because because they were whistleblowers, 0:50:23.200 --> 0:50:26.600 they under they under they understood this is a serious 0:50:27.000 --> 0:50:29.080 like this is very illegal, and I have to try 0:50:29.080 --> 0:50:33.040 to take steps to protect myself because the government's going 0:50:33.120 --> 0:50:35.319 to come after me. The thing about Jack is like 0:50:35.440 --> 0:50:38.040 just the level of like arrogance that like I can 0:50:38.080 --> 0:50:40.680 post this shit all day long and nothing will happen. 0:50:41.440 --> 0:50:43.960 It was like, well, for one thing, this is never 0:50:44.040 --> 0:50:47.520 going like it's information you're posting online, Like I don't care. 0:50:47.560 --> 0:50:50.400 There's no way to keep stuff completely contained within a 0:50:50.480 --> 0:50:53.359 thirty person discord. It's going to leak out, and when 0:50:53.400 --> 0:50:55.480 it is, the government's gonna want to know who the 0:50:55.520 --> 0:50:58.520 fuck is leaking this ship. And you took like took 0:50:58.600 --> 0:51:02.400 pictures of this shit inside his home, Like it's just dumb. 0:51:02.480 --> 0:51:05.040 I'm not gonna like I don't at the end of 0:51:05.080 --> 0:51:08.160 the day, I have no room in my sympathy for 0:51:08.239 --> 0:51:12.240 like a fucking fascy kid who committed the dumbest crime 0:51:12.280 --> 0:51:14.439 possible and got in trouble, Like I don't know. There's 0:51:14.520 --> 0:51:17.440 there's people who I don't know. For example, we're camping 0:51:17.440 --> 0:51:20.040 in a forest and are getting charged with terrorism and 0:51:20.120 --> 0:51:24.600 facing longer penalties, Right, Jack might do fifteen years at 0:51:24.640 --> 0:51:26.680 the most, which is like fucked up, I guess. But 0:51:27.239 --> 0:51:30.400 you know, there's people facing a lot worse for a 0:51:30.440 --> 0:51:35.120 lot less, and I just, you know, whatever, I don't 0:51:35.160 --> 0:51:38.040 care what happens to this kid. He seems like he sucks. 0:51:39.040 --> 0:51:42.080 I think the leaks are interesting. There's nothing in here 0:51:42.120 --> 0:51:48.080 that's like fundamentally changed my understanding of geopolitics though. Yeah, 0:51:48.080 --> 0:51:48.759 that's where I am. 0:51:48.800 --> 0:51:51.200 I would agree. It is a useful reminder to keep 0:51:51.200 --> 0:51:52.160 your crime offline. 0:51:52.680 --> 0:51:59.560 Yeah, don't continue, continue to not post crimes on the internet. 0:52:00.239 --> 0:52:03.279 If you're selling heroin, don't post on Twitter. Here is 0:52:03.320 --> 0:52:05.520 my name and home address. Anyone want to buy some 0:52:05.600 --> 0:52:09.120 fucking China white, that's not a great idea. 0:52:09.560 --> 0:52:12.680 If anyone has any top secret documents, you can find 0:52:12.680 --> 0:52:16.080 me on the Star Wars the Old Republic forums. Just 0:52:16.080 --> 0:52:19.480 just post, just post them there. Yeah, I am part 0:52:19.560 --> 0:52:23.000 of the Jedi Initiative program, So just locate that and 0:52:23.200 --> 0:52:25.560 it'll be I'm sure, I'm sure I'll see it. 0:52:25.880 --> 0:52:29.640 Yeah, I am on the the the Nozdormo server on 0:52:29.760 --> 0:52:32.600 World of Warcraft. You can just hit me up under 0:52:32.680 --> 0:52:36.239 my U my given name. Just dm me and we'll 0:52:36.239 --> 0:52:37.880 figure it out. You can send that ship to me 0:52:37.960 --> 0:52:41.040 over AOL instant messenger. That's how I take all of 0:52:41.120 --> 0:52:43.600 my leaks. The most secure platform. 0:52:44.000 --> 0:52:46.400 You can find me in a Mountain Project comment section 0:52:46.440 --> 0:52:47.640 where any good things happen. 0:52:47.760 --> 0:52:52.040 So we're all on war Thunder too, so you can 0:52:52.080 --> 0:52:56.040 get there too for work reasons. Yeah, I'll be shipped talking. 0:52:55.800 --> 0:52:59.680 Your your grading on a problem, but also accepting national 0:52:59.680 --> 0:53:00.480 security two weeks. 0:53:01.080 --> 0:53:04.440 Yeah, we do, We do it all, all right, everybody. 0:53:04.480 --> 0:53:21.320 That's an episode, Hello podcast Enjoys. 0:53:21.440 --> 0:53:26.080 It's me James today and I am joined again by mo. 0:53:27.080 --> 0:53:31.840 They are an educator, attorney, abolitionist, and they serve overlapping 0:53:31.840 --> 0:53:35.480 communities of activists, queer people, and prisoners. And we've heard 0:53:35.480 --> 0:53:38.320 from them before. We have from them about June eleventh, 0:53:38.320 --> 0:53:40.239 but today we're talking about something a little different. We're 0:53:40.239 --> 0:53:44.879 talking about redistributing power in the attorney client relationship. How 0:53:44.920 --> 0:53:45.160 are you. 0:53:46.600 --> 0:53:48.400 I'm doing okay. How are you, James? 0:53:49.560 --> 0:53:55.839 I'm existing, I'm fine, I'm thriving. So, yeah, you wanted 0:53:55.840 --> 0:53:58.279 to talk today? He reached out to talk about this. 0:53:58.320 --> 0:54:01.000 I think it's a really interesting topic and one that, 0:54:01.120 --> 0:54:05.880 like I've become increasingly more aware of in my coverage 0:54:06.000 --> 0:54:10.759 of some sort of different stuff. That's various prosecutions, I 0:54:10.760 --> 0:54:14.120 guess in the US, and so I was very interested 0:54:14.160 --> 0:54:17.120 in this. Can you preps like start out by explaining 0:54:18.360 --> 0:54:20.719 what it is exactly that you want you wanted to 0:54:20.760 --> 0:54:23.680 discuss within the attorney client relationship. 0:54:24.160 --> 0:54:28.560 Yeah, sure. I wanted to talk about building a trusting 0:54:28.800 --> 0:54:33.120 relationship with your attorney where you feel heard and respected 0:54:33.719 --> 0:54:36.879 and understand what you have a right to expect from 0:54:36.960 --> 0:54:42.080 your attorney and feel empowered to push for it. And 0:54:42.280 --> 0:54:45.920 this actually I want to address this both from the 0:54:46.000 --> 0:54:51.480 side of the client, particularly for people who are accused 0:54:51.480 --> 0:54:55.360 of criminal offenses, and I also want to speak a 0:54:55.360 --> 0:54:59.000 little bit to the people who may be representing folks 0:54:59.120 --> 0:55:03.560 who are accused criminal offenses. For people accused of criminal offenses, 0:55:04.120 --> 0:55:06.640 I want to make sure that anyone in that position 0:55:07.320 --> 0:55:10.359 really understands what you have a right to expect from 0:55:10.400 --> 0:55:13.560 that relationship and to feel really confident asking for it. 0:55:13.880 --> 0:55:19.640 For people who are representing individuals who are politically radical 0:55:19.719 --> 0:55:24.439 or people who are facing politically motivated prosecutions, I want 0:55:24.480 --> 0:55:28.400 those attorneys to feel safe and ethically empowered to practice 0:55:28.440 --> 0:55:31.480 criminal defense in a way that honors the goals of 0:55:32.160 --> 0:55:37.520 clients who may define their legal interests not with respect 0:55:37.680 --> 0:55:43.279 to only their own personal liability, but with respect to 0:55:43.360 --> 0:55:48.120 a larger set of principles or a larger community. 0:55:48.239 --> 0:55:50.799 Yeah, I think, yeah, that's a very it's a good 0:55:50.840 --> 0:55:53.279 distinction to draw, and I think a good thing for 0:55:53.560 --> 0:55:57.120 people to be thinking about. So why is this sort 0:55:57.160 --> 0:55:59.320 of a topic that's important right now? 0:56:01.400 --> 0:56:05.000 Well, so, I certainly don't want to say that participating 0:56:05.000 --> 0:56:09.200 in protests or in social movements is dangerous, or that 0:56:09.280 --> 0:56:12.160 it's even more dangerous than it has been in the past, 0:56:13.640 --> 0:56:18.520 but I am concerned that we might be seeing some 0:56:18.760 --> 0:56:23.040 arrests and charges that are a little more unhinged than 0:56:23.080 --> 0:56:27.239 we've seen in a while. So this isn't new, but 0:56:27.360 --> 0:56:30.839 it may be new to a newer generation of activists. 0:56:32.000 --> 0:56:34.040 And I think some of the community knowledge that was 0:56:34.080 --> 0:56:38.560 cultivated and held twenty or thirty years ago maybe outdated, 0:56:38.719 --> 0:56:42.360 or it might be inaccessible to folks who weren't involved 0:56:42.640 --> 0:56:44.839 back then, or maybe who weren't involved in things that 0:56:44.920 --> 0:56:48.919 were like subject to this level of state repression twenty 0:56:49.040 --> 0:56:53.160 or thirty years ago. So that includes activists, but it 0:56:53.200 --> 0:56:58.040 also includes even very experienced criminal defense attorneys who maybe 0:56:58.080 --> 0:57:01.680 haven't interacted with these kinds of pressingcutions, you know, for 0:57:01.719 --> 0:57:04.840 whatever reason, because they were doing a different area of practice, 0:57:05.920 --> 0:57:10.560 maybe because this what was happening to the people they 0:57:10.600 --> 0:57:16.600 were representing in the geographic area where they practice, or 0:57:16.920 --> 0:57:19.960 like it wasn't happening at the time that they were practicing. 0:57:20.520 --> 0:57:22.880 So I think that people on both sides of the 0:57:22.880 --> 0:57:26.919 attorney client relationship could benefit from considering that there are 0:57:27.000 --> 0:57:32.000 some maybe important and time tested methods of working to 0:57:32.120 --> 0:57:36.400 mount a collaborative defense in the context of a politically 0:57:36.480 --> 0:57:37.480 motivated prosecution. 0:57:38.160 --> 0:57:41.000 Yeah, I think that's just to kind of piggyback off 0:57:41.120 --> 0:57:44.600 what you said. I think it's incredibly valuable. Often, like 0:57:44.680 --> 0:57:48.480 if you've been part of social movements, protest movements, what 0:57:48.520 --> 0:57:51.360 if you want to call it, like for a long time. 0:57:51.480 --> 0:57:55.600 Often we do have to learn things like the institutional 0:57:55.640 --> 0:57:58.880 memory of movements can be quite short, and a lot 0:57:59.000 --> 0:58:03.200 of people have come to the protest movement now who 0:58:03.200 --> 0:58:06.560 were not, like in my own case, like involved in 0:58:06.640 --> 0:58:10.320 sort of the campaign against neoliberal globalization in the early 0:58:10.320 --> 0:58:13.320 two thousands, where we screwed up a lot and learned 0:58:13.320 --> 0:58:16.200 a lot, and some of us are still around, and 0:58:16.760 --> 0:58:19.960 some of us are not sadly yet because part of 0:58:20.440 --> 0:58:24.080 the screw ups that that happened, and like a lot 0:58:24.080 --> 0:58:26.840 of people understandably right have been radicalized by having their 0:58:26.880 --> 0:58:30.880 bodily autonomy attacked by seeing the cops continue to murder 0:58:30.880 --> 0:58:32.440 people after we all got in the streets and got 0:58:32.440 --> 0:58:34.720 shot with robb bullets to ask them to stop murdering people. 0:58:35.080 --> 0:58:40.160 Like all these things that have understandably made people realize 0:58:40.160 --> 0:58:44.400 that the institutional the institutions haven't really responded to their 0:58:44.400 --> 0:58:48.000 demands for basic human decency, and so yeah, they might 0:58:48.040 --> 0:58:51.720 find themselves out in the streets and government doesn't generally 0:58:51.760 --> 0:58:56.280 yield power willingly, and certainly government right now is doing 0:58:56.320 --> 0:58:59.760 everything to kind of take what little liberty and autonomy 0:58:59.800 --> 0:59:04.160 folk have slice into that. So it's very reasonable to 0:59:04.240 --> 0:59:09.560 consider these things. So if in this attorney client relationship, 0:59:09.840 --> 0:59:16.480 what would be some areas of friction or of maybe 0:59:16.520 --> 0:59:18.920 I'm phrasing that wrong, but like places where people might 0:59:18.960 --> 0:59:21.120 want to advocate for themselves in order to get an 0:59:21.120 --> 0:59:22.720 outcome that they desire. 0:59:24.560 --> 0:59:30.120 Right, Well, so I'll certainly get more into the specifics, 0:59:30.560 --> 0:59:33.440 but I guess you know, I want to talk about 0:59:33.480 --> 0:59:42.080 this because I am seeing disconnects between people in these relationships, 0:59:42.720 --> 0:59:45.320 and just from where I sit, I feel like I 0:59:45.360 --> 0:59:50.680 can see what's going wrong, and I think that there 0:59:50.680 --> 0:59:55.440 are some straightforward solutions, and I think that having compassion 0:59:55.560 --> 0:59:59.160 each each party having compassion for the other can be 0:59:59.240 --> 1:00:02.600 really useful here. So I think like one thing that's 1:00:02.680 --> 1:00:05.720 happening is that attorneys are very much educated to be 1:00:05.920 --> 1:00:11.959 confident unto the point of arrogance, and clients often either 1:00:12.080 --> 1:00:15.840 don't feel authorized to push back on their attorney's ideas, 1:00:16.040 --> 1:00:19.959 or they do and attorneys to then just maybe steamroll them. 1:00:20.800 --> 1:00:27.400 And this is not entirely because attorneys are assholes. I 1:00:27.440 --> 1:00:30.120 think it is because criminal defense attorneys are very often 1:00:30.120 --> 1:00:35.600 taught to minimize their clients' legal liability by any means necessary, well, 1:00:35.680 --> 1:00:38.120 by any lawful means. I guess that is what I 1:00:38.120 --> 1:00:43.240 should say. So for criminal defense attorneys who do not 1:00:43.440 --> 1:00:48.080 primarily work with movement aligned clients, this often means negotiating 1:00:48.120 --> 1:00:52.120 deals with the prosecution that involve cooperating with the state's investigation, 1:00:53.800 --> 1:00:58.960 handing over information on your confederates, putting the client in 1:00:59.040 --> 1:01:03.120 an isolated or adversarial position with their co defendants or 1:01:03.120 --> 1:01:07.280 co arrestees, or doing things that require a person to 1:01:07.400 --> 1:01:11.040 renounce or disparage the people or the communities that they've 1:01:11.080 --> 1:01:15.560 been involved with that they come from. And I think 1:01:15.560 --> 1:01:19.360 it's true that using these kinds of tactics to minimize 1:01:19.440 --> 1:01:23.160 your own legal risk is very often what people charged 1:01:23.200 --> 1:01:29.280 with criminal offenses want, But that sort of approach is 1:01:29.320 --> 1:01:33.600 often at odds with movement values, and it's often totally 1:01:33.640 --> 1:01:38.760 inconsistent with what activists want. Activists want when they are 1:01:38.800 --> 1:01:46.320 facing charges. So, you know, trying to minimize legal consequences is, 1:01:47.200 --> 1:01:50.080 you know, certainly always a part of our job, and 1:01:50.120 --> 1:01:53.560 it's often a totally valid thing for lawyers to be doing. 1:01:53.720 --> 1:01:57.600 But the idea that an attorney's job is solely to 1:01:57.800 --> 1:02:04.680 mitigate legal fallout is not actually entirely accurate. What lawyers 1:02:04.680 --> 1:02:06.920 are supposed to do is work with the client to 1:02:07.000 --> 1:02:11.280 help the client articulate their goals, and then the attorney 1:02:11.280 --> 1:02:15.160 should use their expertise and their experience to help the 1:02:15.200 --> 1:02:19.560 client lawfully pursue those goals. And that's what attorneys are 1:02:19.600 --> 1:02:21.960 supposed to do in every case. But I think it 1:02:22.040 --> 1:02:28.560 often becomes most salient when the client's goals are less 1:02:28.640 --> 1:02:33.640 focused on minimizing legal consequences and more focused on, for example, 1:02:34.000 --> 1:02:37.840 highlighting movement messages or acting in solidarity with other people 1:02:37.840 --> 1:02:42.000 who are facing similar charges. So you know, again, I'm 1:02:42.040 --> 1:02:45.440 talking about this right now in the context of explicitly 1:02:45.560 --> 1:02:49.880 politically motivated prosecution, but frankly, the goals of the client 1:02:49.960 --> 1:02:51.520 have to lead in all cases. 1:02:52.680 --> 1:02:56.160 Yeah, of course. So one thing that we've chatted, that 1:02:56.280 --> 1:02:59.480 little bit that I think maybe folks in some areas 1:02:59.480 --> 1:03:01.640 that I've looked at might not have been aware of. 1:03:01.760 --> 1:03:06.280 It's a concept of a joint defense. Could you explain 1:03:06.440 --> 1:03:08.600 for people who aren't familiar what that looks like. 1:03:09.600 --> 1:03:16.040 So, a joint defense is a way of approaching a 1:03:16.120 --> 1:03:23.680 legal case where there are multiple defendants or multiple arrestees. Typically, 1:03:24.200 --> 1:03:27.400 in a criminal case, if you have multiple defendants, there's 1:03:27.440 --> 1:03:30.840 sort of a presumption that their interests are at odds 1:03:30.880 --> 1:03:36.080 with each other, that you know, one of them or 1:03:36.120 --> 1:03:37.920 one or more of them is going to get thrown 1:03:38.000 --> 1:03:43.640 under the bus to reduce the punishment of one or 1:03:43.640 --> 1:03:48.560 more of the others. When we're talking about something like 1:03:48.640 --> 1:03:52.280 a mass arrest or an arrest that takes place in 1:03:52.280 --> 1:03:55.920 the context of a social movement where there are multiple defendants, 1:03:56.120 --> 1:03:59.080 very often those people do not see their interests at 1:03:59.440 --> 1:04:02.600 being an odds with each other. Very often they see 1:04:02.640 --> 1:04:08.760 their interests as being unified, and so they want to 1:04:08.960 --> 1:04:11.520 act in solidarity with each other. And there are a 1:04:11.600 --> 1:04:17.840 bunch of reasons for this that are legal, and they're 1:04:17.840 --> 1:04:23.600 also political and social reasons, right, just in terms of 1:04:24.240 --> 1:04:30.320 people you know, having carrying social relationships. They often have 1:04:30.440 --> 1:04:34.360 commitments to each other and to community. But politically, people 1:04:34.440 --> 1:04:40.840 often feel that their individual legal interests are less the 1:04:41.080 --> 1:04:44.360 important thing that's at stake, and that the thing that's 1:04:44.400 --> 1:04:48.000 at stake is actually the health and welfare of their 1:04:48.040 --> 1:04:53.240 social movement, right, and that if they did do something 1:04:53.280 --> 1:04:56.840 like cooperate with the state's investigation, they would actually be 1:04:57.160 --> 1:05:02.760 undermining their larger social movement goals. Legally, and this is 1:05:02.800 --> 1:05:08.840 really important legally, having a joint defense agreement or using 1:05:08.920 --> 1:05:14.400 a joint defense approach allows all of those people to 1:05:14.560 --> 1:05:18.600 work together in a privileged context, right because they share 1:05:18.640 --> 1:05:22.400 a unity of interest, and so they and their attorneys 1:05:22.440 --> 1:05:25.880 are able to work on legal strategy together, are able 1:05:25.920 --> 1:05:30.400 to do things like negotiate for non cooperating plea agreements 1:05:30.720 --> 1:05:34.400 as a block, are able to just have you know, 1:05:35.040 --> 1:05:39.520 more eyes on the problem, more people doing legal research, 1:05:39.840 --> 1:05:45.400 more people drafting motions, right, and so in a very 1:05:45.520 --> 1:05:54.160 material sense, this is often a legal strategy. Working together 1:05:56.280 --> 1:06:01.120 actually leads to better legal outcomes for every body involved. 1:06:01.360 --> 1:06:05.680 So I want to be clear that this approach, both 1:06:06.880 --> 1:06:10.600 you know, using joint defense agreements and using that approach, 1:06:10.640 --> 1:06:14.840 but also just in terms of an individual attorney client relationship, 1:06:15.280 --> 1:06:19.400 acting in a way that's more collaborative is not just cosmetic, 1:06:19.880 --> 1:06:21.919 and it's not just something that makes you feel good 1:06:21.960 --> 1:06:26.040 if you're someone who's committed to anti authoritarian principles. In 1:06:26.080 --> 1:06:30.480 a material way, approaching the attorney client relationship in a 1:06:30.560 --> 1:06:34.840 way that is calculated to more fully incorporate the goals 1:06:35.320 --> 1:06:41.560 and expertise of the client or of many clients leads 1:06:41.640 --> 1:06:47.960 to better legal outcomes, less punitive outcomes. It leads to 1:06:48.040 --> 1:06:52.280 outcomes that are more closely aligned with client values, and 1:06:52.320 --> 1:06:56.160 it leads to outcomes that are better understood by the client, 1:06:56.280 --> 1:06:57.680 even if those outcomes are. 1:06:57.720 --> 1:07:01.440 Bad, right, yeah, yeah, least they're part of that process. 1:07:01.480 --> 1:07:03.600 And I think a great example of joint defense that 1:07:03.640 --> 1:07:08.880 we discussed would be the J twenty case. Right, If 1:07:08.920 --> 1:07:12.280 I'm not mistaken, it was a group of folks who 1:07:12.400 --> 1:07:16.440 were tried together or who amounted to joint defense I 1:07:16.440 --> 1:07:22.680 guess against charges that were like fouled against some Trump's inauguration. 1:07:23.280 --> 1:07:29.200 It was something they were cattled in DC protesting Trump's inauguration, 1:07:29.880 --> 1:07:32.800 and there were more than two hundred people arrested in 1:07:33.200 --> 1:07:39.080 this mass arrest, and they had a very coordinated defense, 1:07:39.120 --> 1:07:44.600 and they all worked together, and ultimately, I'm going to say, 1:07:44.600 --> 1:07:49.640 in large part because they had so many eyes on 1:07:49.680 --> 1:07:53.240 the problem, they had so many people working on it, 1:07:53.360 --> 1:07:56.520 they were able to really go through discovery, go through 1:07:56.560 --> 1:08:04.160 the state's evidence against them, and find prosecutorial misconduct that 1:08:05.160 --> 1:08:09.439 led to the favorable resolution of those cases. The other 1:08:09.560 --> 1:08:12.280 thing that they did is that they really all refused 1:08:12.600 --> 1:08:18.439 to cooperate with the state's investigation, which limited the harm 1:08:18.520 --> 1:08:22.880 that was done to larger social movements because it meant 1:08:22.920 --> 1:08:25.439 that people were not just rolling over on each other 1:08:25.880 --> 1:08:31.160 and giving the state information to which it was not entitled, right, 1:08:31.280 --> 1:08:36.360 like you know, information about people's relationships or interpersonal conflicts, 1:08:36.680 --> 1:08:43.240 or you know, different kinds of First Amendment protected information 1:08:43.320 --> 1:08:46.640 that the state always wants to have about activists but 1:08:47.200 --> 1:08:53.000 which they actually are not entitled to, but which they 1:08:53.080 --> 1:08:58.040 often end up getting because people who are facing criminal charges. 1:08:58.800 --> 1:09:05.160 You know, sometimes will will offer that up in exchange 1:09:05.320 --> 1:09:10.560 for you know, what they hope will be some lenience. 1:09:11.360 --> 1:09:14.519 I think that was a really good explanation of of 1:09:14.560 --> 1:09:17.639 how these techniques, like you say, they're not just cosmetic. 1:09:17.680 --> 1:09:21.800 It's not posturing or an aesthetic thing. It can result 1:09:21.840 --> 1:09:25.360 in material benefits as well as aligning with your moral desires. 1:09:26.640 --> 1:09:31.200 Can you explain substantively then, how this looks in an 1:09:31.200 --> 1:09:34.400 attorney client relationship, either with an individual or as a group, 1:09:34.479 --> 1:09:35.760 Matt your joint defense. 1:09:38.479 --> 1:09:42.160 So, you know, like any other relationship that's predicated on 1:09:42.240 --> 1:09:47.080 anti authoritarian principles and shared values of mutual aid and 1:09:47.120 --> 1:09:54.720 self determination, it requires building trust. It requires clear expectations, 1:09:54.800 --> 1:10:00.040 honest communication, respect for each other's expertise and consent. And 1:10:00.080 --> 1:10:04.240 I think, you know, the piece that I think is 1:10:04.280 --> 1:10:09.479 sometimes missing is a real understanding from both parties that 1:10:09.600 --> 1:10:12.839 the accused is the person who has rights and liberty 1:10:12.920 --> 1:10:17.160 on the line. The accused is the person whose goals matter. 1:10:17.640 --> 1:10:19.639 The accused is the person who needs to be able 1:10:19.680 --> 1:10:21.840 to make decisions about things like whether or not to 1:10:21.920 --> 1:10:24.439 accept a plea offer, whether or not to cooperate with 1:10:24.520 --> 1:10:28.120 the state, whether or not to go to trial and 1:10:28.160 --> 1:10:31.519 whether or not to testify a trial. The attorney is 1:10:31.520 --> 1:10:34.760 presumably the person who has a lot of expertise with 1:10:35.120 --> 1:10:37.920 the law and a lot of experience with the legal system, 1:10:37.960 --> 1:10:43.000 and that is valuable and important. But you know it, 1:10:43.080 --> 1:10:46.080 really I want people who are facing criminal charges to 1:10:46.200 --> 1:10:51.240 understand how much power they ought to feel comfortable exercising 1:10:51.280 --> 1:10:55.320 in this relationship. You know, it is up to the 1:10:55.439 --> 1:10:58.240 accused whether they want their attorney to take part in 1:10:58.240 --> 1:11:02.280 a joint defense strategy. Now we are seeing some stuff. 1:11:03.000 --> 1:11:08.360 I have recently seen some bond conditions imposed on people 1:11:08.400 --> 1:11:12.280 facing criminal charges that appear to me to make it 1:11:12.520 --> 1:11:18.400 very difficult for attorneys to engage in a joint defense 1:11:18.439 --> 1:11:22.280 strategy because sometimes it looks like these co defendants are 1:11:22.320 --> 1:11:28.280 being forbidden from communicating with each other, and so, you know, 1:11:28.880 --> 1:11:31.840 that is an interesting wrinkle. But one of the things 1:11:31.920 --> 1:11:34.040 that can mean is that it's up to the accused 1:11:34.080 --> 1:11:37.120 whether they need their attorney to go and argue to 1:11:37.200 --> 1:11:39.080 have that bond condition removed. 1:11:39.160 --> 1:11:41.639 Right, Yeah, I thought of that, But there are definitely 1:11:42.000 --> 1:11:45.639 especially if you are being proscuted in a group it's 1:11:45.640 --> 1:11:49.240 alleged to you've conspired to do something illegal, then yes, 1:11:49.240 --> 1:11:51.240 that might be condition of your bond, and that would 1:11:51.280 --> 1:11:54.000 make it very hard to do a joint defense. But 1:11:54.640 --> 1:11:57.640 like you said, that's when you should feel empowered to 1:11:57.640 --> 1:12:01.040 ask your attorney to stop that from being a thing. 1:12:01.160 --> 1:12:05.639 Right, Right, the person who's facing charges gets to make 1:12:05.680 --> 1:12:09.200 these decisions, right, And I'm saying, well, it's your right 1:12:09.240 --> 1:12:11.599 to decide whether to be involved in a joint defense. 1:12:11.640 --> 1:12:14.519 It's also your right to decide not to be. You 1:12:14.560 --> 1:12:19.680 can absolutely exercise your right to independent counsel, meaning the 1:12:19.760 --> 1:12:22.719 right to have an attorney who is not representing anyone 1:12:22.760 --> 1:12:25.080 else who's involved in your case, like who is not 1:12:25.280 --> 1:12:28.960 in any way connected to a co defendant or co arrest. Now, 1:12:29.080 --> 1:12:30.880 this is not to say that your attorney has to 1:12:30.920 --> 1:12:33.120 do everything you want and they're just a yes man, 1:12:33.479 --> 1:12:36.839 and that if they decline to do everything you instruct 1:12:36.840 --> 1:12:39.960 them to do, that you should fire them. You know, 1:12:40.040 --> 1:12:43.640 attorneys do have to operate under certain constraints, and this 1:12:44.600 --> 1:12:48.479 ranges from things like, you know, some law is not 1:12:48.920 --> 1:12:53.880 relevant to this case. Right. I've occasionally had clients ask 1:12:54.000 --> 1:12:58.320 me to use the uniform commercial Code to defend their 1:12:58.360 --> 1:13:04.200 criminal cases, which is not a thing. And you know, 1:13:04.400 --> 1:13:06.720 I've also had clients ask me to like hold have 1:13:06.840 --> 1:13:09.840 a hearing or vile emotion at a time when like 1:13:09.920 --> 1:13:14.840 procedurally that's not permissible, right, So you know, you can't 1:13:14.880 --> 1:13:20.000 just do everything that the client says. But look, typically 1:13:20.240 --> 1:13:23.840 the attorney has control over legal strategy because you know, 1:13:23.880 --> 1:13:26.479 as I said, presumably they have expertise with the law. 1:13:28.160 --> 1:13:32.600 But like, even if you have decided that you're just 1:13:32.680 --> 1:13:36.560 going to defer to your attorney entirely in matters of strategy, 1:13:37.920 --> 1:13:39.840 or even if you have an attorney who's like not 1:13:40.120 --> 1:13:44.160 super comfortable involving you in strategy to the degree that 1:13:44.280 --> 1:13:49.000 like I might be, at a minimum, the attorney needs 1:13:49.040 --> 1:13:51.960 to be able to explain their strategy to you and 1:13:52.240 --> 1:13:55.600 justify it right. So you know, again there needs to 1:13:55.600 --> 1:13:58.920 be mutual trust and respect for each other. So expertise, 1:14:00.439 --> 1:14:03.160 they're not just a mouthpiece. But if you feel like 1:14:03.200 --> 1:14:07.040 they're genuinely not listening to your goals or not helping 1:14:07.120 --> 1:14:11.599 you to understand what's happening, or they're actively disrespectful, it's 1:14:11.720 --> 1:14:14.920 really important for you to know you can fire your attorney. 1:14:15.760 --> 1:14:18.519 Yeah. I think the one area of at least where 1:14:18.520 --> 1:14:22.080 I've become aware of this is somebody whose attorney was 1:14:22.160 --> 1:14:24.800 either refusing to or somehow was incapable of gendering them 1:14:24.840 --> 1:14:27.120 in the way that they would like to be gendered. 1:14:27.640 --> 1:14:30.000 And in cases like that, you have the right to 1:14:30.120 --> 1:14:34.240 ask your journey, you're your attorney, to use whatever pronouns 1:14:34.280 --> 1:14:37.720 you prefer, and to be referred to using those pronouns. 1:14:37.920 --> 1:14:38.960 Is that is that right? 1:14:40.320 --> 1:14:45.920 Absolutely? Absolutely. I've certainly heard horror stories, and not just 1:14:46.680 --> 1:14:48.600 and I'll speak to this in a second. I have 1:14:48.640 --> 1:14:53.719 heard horror stories not just about public defenders, but also 1:14:53.760 --> 1:15:02.600 about private counsel being you know, casually race cyst being misogynist, 1:15:03.439 --> 1:15:09.880 being transphobic, and you know, being ablest, being really disrespectful 1:15:09.920 --> 1:15:18.479 and classist, particularly around things like transportation and childcare. So 1:15:18.800 --> 1:15:21.000 you know, if you have an attorney who's just straight 1:15:21.120 --> 1:15:25.360 rude or being disrespectful or like being oppressive in some way, 1:15:25.800 --> 1:15:28.519 I would say, you know, the first step I suppose 1:15:28.520 --> 1:15:31.719 would be to bring it to their attention, and if 1:15:31.800 --> 1:15:37.439 they don't, if they are not responsive, you know, you 1:15:37.479 --> 1:15:42.479 should know that you do have a right to choose 1:15:42.520 --> 1:15:46.160 your own attorney. Now, I do understand that there are 1:15:47.360 --> 1:15:52.000 you know, financial issues with just choosing your own attorney, 1:15:52.520 --> 1:15:59.440 but particularly in the context of you know, movement related prosecutions. 1:15:59.479 --> 1:16:06.120 They're often not always, but often resources available to you 1:16:06.800 --> 1:16:10.679 where people will either work to find you someone who 1:16:10.720 --> 1:16:16.320 can represent you pro bono or you know, will raise money. 1:16:16.400 --> 1:16:18.000 And the other thing is that if you have a 1:16:18.000 --> 1:16:25.960 public defender, you can almost always have appointed counsel from 1:16:26.000 --> 1:16:33.200 another office if you have some kind of irretrievable conflict 1:16:33.280 --> 1:16:34.040 with your attorney. 1:16:34.760 --> 1:16:36.600 So I think we should talk about public defenders a 1:16:36.600 --> 1:16:39.559 bit because I think sometimes people can think that like 1:16:39.640 --> 1:16:42.439 that they're sort of the worst option, or like the 1:16:42.479 --> 1:16:44.719 bargain basement choice or what have you. Went In fact, 1:16:44.800 --> 1:16:47.639 there are some things you can get with a public 1:16:47.680 --> 1:16:50.479 defender you're very unlikely to get with private counsel and 1:16:51.479 --> 1:16:53.600 absolute yea, let's talk about public defenders a little bit. 1:16:55.520 --> 1:17:00.360 Sure, I would love to. I love public defenders actually 1:17:00.560 --> 1:17:06.640 in large cities that have what we would call institutional 1:17:06.640 --> 1:17:11.840 public defenders as opposed to you know, everyone takes a 1:17:11.880 --> 1:17:14.160 turn being a public defender for one week out of 1:17:14.160 --> 1:17:20.080 the year. You know, people who want to be public 1:17:20.120 --> 1:17:26.320 defenders do not go into public defense for the big bucks. 1:17:26.400 --> 1:17:30.240 They go into it because they care about defending people 1:17:30.320 --> 1:17:36.160 and keeping people out of jail, and very often, you know, 1:17:37.280 --> 1:17:40.120 the people who are in those positions care very much 1:17:40.320 --> 1:17:44.080 and are really really well trained, and they are not dummies, 1:17:44.760 --> 1:17:49.479 and they will work really hard for you. And I 1:17:49.680 --> 1:17:53.120 do want to push back against the widespread perception that 1:17:53.200 --> 1:17:57.960 public defenders are not good attorneys. They very often are 1:17:58.080 --> 1:18:02.040 the best available option are often in very very good hands. No, 1:18:02.160 --> 1:18:04.760 this isn't to say that you're never going to come 1:18:04.800 --> 1:18:09.200 across a public defender who is rude or incompetent in 1:18:09.200 --> 1:18:13.599 some way some way, but I would really really caution 1:18:13.760 --> 1:18:19.840 you against assuming that the public defender is not a 1:18:20.520 --> 1:18:25.879 super qualified, committed attorney. The other thing is that the 1:18:25.920 --> 1:18:29.960 offices of the public defender often have resources available to 1:18:30.000 --> 1:18:36.080 them that private counsel do not. You know, they have investigators, 1:18:36.160 --> 1:18:40.640 they have social workers, they have vouchers for public transportation, 1:18:41.640 --> 1:18:45.679 and all of those things are resources that I think 1:18:45.760 --> 1:18:52.719 can be very useful in supporting someone who's facing criminal charges. 1:18:53.439 --> 1:18:57.960 So again, you know, certainly, if you're having some kind 1:18:58.000 --> 1:19:03.600 of interpersonal problem with your defender or any attorney, I 1:19:03.680 --> 1:19:07.160 want you to feel really really empowered to address it 1:19:08.439 --> 1:19:11.880 and hopefully they're able to, you know, respond in a 1:19:11.920 --> 1:19:15.800 way that's appropriate. And explain what's going on and you 1:19:15.840 --> 1:19:18.200 know why things are happening in whatever way they are. 1:19:18.800 --> 1:19:24.360 But I think it would be a mistake to dismiss 1:19:25.360 --> 1:19:27.040 the public defender as a good option. 1:19:27.280 --> 1:19:29.439 Yeah, yeah, I agree. I know some public defenders, and 1:19:29.479 --> 1:19:32.400 some of them are really great people, very very committed, 1:19:32.400 --> 1:19:34.280 like you say, to keeping folks out of jail, which 1:19:35.800 --> 1:19:38.200 is his goal in a lot of these cases. 1:19:38.560 --> 1:19:40.560 Some of my best friends are public defenders. 1:19:40.640 --> 1:19:44.439 No, they don't, and like I, people obviously will be. 1:19:45.560 --> 1:19:48.000 I guess a lot of people in some who are 1:19:48.040 --> 1:19:51.439 anti authoritarian right are going to be like less im 1:19:51.479 --> 1:19:54.880 positively aligned with any sort of institutions or feel concerned 1:19:54.880 --> 1:19:57.600 about interacting with people who are part of these institutions. 1:19:57.640 --> 1:20:00.000 But like, as far as those people exist within those 1:20:00.040 --> 1:20:06.000 institutions to keep people out of much worse institutions like jails. 1:20:06.479 --> 1:20:08.559 I think a lot of people who do public defense 1:20:08.640 --> 1:20:12.679 really have the sense that they're you know, that their 1:20:12.720 --> 1:20:17.240 mission is harm reduction, right, and they're prepared to operate 1:20:17.320 --> 1:20:22.680 in the confines of what are sometimes sort of leviathan 1:20:22.840 --> 1:20:25.920 bureaucracies in order to achieve that. 1:20:26.160 --> 1:20:29.599 Yeah, and maybe a lot of folks would have run 1:20:29.600 --> 1:20:31.400 into I certainly know. I'm a lot of public twenties 1:20:31.439 --> 1:20:35.639 in twenty twenty in the course of covering protest, and yeah, 1:20:35.680 --> 1:20:38.920 it's pretty clear that those folks were largely aligned with 1:20:39.160 --> 1:20:42.200 good things, with stopping the state doing violence to people 1:20:42.479 --> 1:20:45.920 in all of the different ways that it does that. Well, 1:20:46.040 --> 1:20:48.040 is there anything else that you'd like us to get 1:20:48.040 --> 1:20:51.080 to with respect to these relationships people might have with 1:20:51.200 --> 1:20:52.080 their attorney? 1:20:53.040 --> 1:20:57.600 Yeah, I say this a lot. Attorneys have an obligation 1:20:58.520 --> 1:21:03.160 to give their clients their best understanding of what's going on, 1:21:04.400 --> 1:21:09.800 what paths are available to take, and the possible or 1:21:10.000 --> 1:21:13.559 likely outcomes of each of those paths. Right, an attorney 1:21:13.600 --> 1:21:17.160 has an obligation to give you the best possible legal 1:21:17.200 --> 1:21:23.080 advice based on your articulated goals, their understanding of the law, 1:21:23.760 --> 1:21:29.200 their experience, and their clinical judgment, and their clients have 1:21:29.280 --> 1:21:36.439 no corresponding obligation to follow that advice, which can be 1:21:36.880 --> 1:21:43.559 frustrating from where I sit, but it is nevertheless a 1:21:43.720 --> 1:21:47.080 critical attribute of my work that I do not get 1:21:47.120 --> 1:21:52.840 to make big decisions for other people. They get to 1:21:52.880 --> 1:21:56.120 make decisions that I would not make if I were 1:21:56.160 --> 1:22:02.040 allowed to make them, But I'm not. I think that 1:22:03.560 --> 1:22:05.680 you know, I try to be really transparent with my 1:22:05.760 --> 1:22:09.280 clients about what my ethical commitments are, what I will 1:22:09.360 --> 1:22:13.160 do for them, what I'm not allowed to do for them. 1:22:13.640 --> 1:22:16.800 You know, I try to have those conversations in an 1:22:16.840 --> 1:22:21.360 ongoing way. I don't know that that's common practice. I 1:22:21.439 --> 1:22:25.000 think people are really busy and that's a hard practice 1:22:25.040 --> 1:22:31.000 to maintain. But I want to encourage people who are 1:22:31.160 --> 1:22:36.800 in an attorney client relationship to initiate those conversations, right. 1:22:37.400 --> 1:22:37.799 I guess. 1:22:37.840 --> 1:22:40.479 The only other thing I would say is, you know, 1:22:40.560 --> 1:22:46.880 if you have concerns with your lawyer, address those concerns immediately, 1:22:47.000 --> 1:22:50.559 because the farther into a case you are, the harder 1:22:50.600 --> 1:22:54.120 it is to have that conversation, and the farther into 1:22:54.120 --> 1:22:55.760 a case you are, the harder it is to fire 1:22:55.800 --> 1:22:59.880 your lawyer. Typically, you have a right to choose your 1:23:00.120 --> 1:23:05.439 own attorney, but if you're, you know, one week out 1:23:05.479 --> 1:23:08.800 from going to trial, the judge may not allow you 1:23:08.880 --> 1:23:14.839 to do it. Yeah, right, So yeah, I mean, I guess, 1:23:15.479 --> 1:23:22.000 I just I just wanted to tell anyone who's listening 1:23:22.200 --> 1:23:26.160 that if you are in a situation where you have 1:23:26.240 --> 1:23:31.320 to have a relationship with an attorney, you know, it's 1:23:31.400 --> 1:23:35.240 already probably kind of a bad situation, and you should 1:23:35.320 --> 1:23:37.559 be in a relationship where you feel like your lawyer 1:23:37.640 --> 1:23:41.599 is taking all of your goals seriously, which includes not 1:23:41.720 --> 1:23:46.960 just your straightforward legal goals, but movement support and solidarity. 1:23:48.000 --> 1:23:51.680 And if your lawyer is disrespecting your goals, or disrespecting 1:23:51.680 --> 1:23:56.320 your identities, or disrespecting other kinds of ethical commitments you have, 1:23:57.280 --> 1:24:00.280 you can choose to find a different attorney and are 1:24:00.400 --> 1:24:05.960 resources available, and ultimately these decisions are yours. And then 1:24:06.200 --> 1:24:10.400 I had some resources that I wanted to be great. 1:24:11.760 --> 1:24:16.080 So for people who may be accused of criminal offenses, 1:24:16.600 --> 1:24:19.320 there's a really great book called The Tilted Guide to 1:24:19.360 --> 1:24:22.840 Being a Defendant, and if you google that you can 1:24:22.840 --> 1:24:26.920 find a free pdf of it. I would also encourage 1:24:27.000 --> 1:24:32.559 people to reach out to and to become non lawyer 1:24:32.680 --> 1:24:36.680 legal workers, So people who have, you know, experience with 1:24:36.800 --> 1:24:39.800 jail support, people who have experience with court support, and 1:24:39.840 --> 1:24:43.320 with providing sort of community support to people who are 1:24:43.360 --> 1:24:50.200 facing charges. If you are somebody who has an ongoing case, 1:24:51.200 --> 1:24:54.960 having a support committee that includes at least one legal 1:24:55.000 --> 1:25:03.559 worker can be just so critical in maintaining morale and 1:25:03.680 --> 1:25:10.400 in feeling supported and in having the wherewithal to be 1:25:10.600 --> 1:25:15.280 an active participant in your own defense. And we do 1:25:15.439 --> 1:25:19.880 know that when people are active participants in their own defense, 1:25:21.479 --> 1:25:24.160 they have better legal outcomes. 1:25:24.240 --> 1:25:26.360 Yes, I would imagine even if they don't have better 1:25:26.439 --> 1:25:29.439 legal outcomes, they have ones that are easier for them 1:25:29.479 --> 1:25:32.559 to understand the more satisfactory because of that. 1:25:32.920 --> 1:25:38.680 Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, there are a lot of times when 1:25:38.680 --> 1:25:40.760 there are no good options on the table. I don't 1:25:41.760 --> 1:25:44.639 I want to be very clear, being an active participant 1:25:44.680 --> 1:25:47.639 in your own defense or having a really great attorney 1:25:47.680 --> 1:25:50.679 who really listens to you and respects your goals, does 1:25:50.720 --> 1:25:54.240 not mean that you are not going to experience punishment 1:25:54.320 --> 1:25:58.680 or state repression. It means that you are going to 1:25:58.680 --> 1:26:01.920 have a better handle on what your options are and 1:26:02.000 --> 1:26:05.080 why things are happening in the way that they are. So, 1:26:05.280 --> 1:26:09.000 even if you end up in a situation that involves, 1:26:09.320 --> 1:26:14.680 you know, for example, spending time in carceroal confinement, you 1:26:14.720 --> 1:26:19.000 will at least understand how you got there, and you 1:26:19.040 --> 1:26:25.920 will understand what the other possible options were. Right, you know, 1:26:27.680 --> 1:26:34.439 somebody might choose to endure punishment rather than cooperate with 1:26:34.520 --> 1:26:38.200 the state. And even if that is not what most 1:26:38.200 --> 1:26:42.960 people would understand, as a better legal outcome. It is 1:26:43.000 --> 1:26:50.000 an outcome that at least was more intentionally pursued than 1:26:50.040 --> 1:26:50.880 the alternative. 1:26:51.080 --> 1:26:55.760 Yes, yeah, yeah, So where could people find these these 1:26:55.800 --> 1:26:59.439 non lower legal workers if they wanted to add one, 1:26:59.520 --> 1:27:03.120 or if they know if they wanted support from one. 1:27:04.120 --> 1:27:08.320 If people wanted to find legal workers in their own community, 1:27:08.560 --> 1:27:15.680 I mean typically they're they're involved with movements, they might 1:27:15.680 --> 1:27:18.880 be associated with your local chapter of the National Lawyers Guild, 1:27:19.600 --> 1:27:22.200 they might be the people who are most active in 1:27:22.280 --> 1:27:27.840 jail support. If you really can't find anybody, you can 1:27:27.920 --> 1:27:31.760 call the National Lawyer's Guild Anti Repression hotline if you 1:27:31.800 --> 1:27:36.480 are actively facing charges. That number is two one two 1:27:36.520 --> 1:27:40.439 six seven nine two eight one one, and we can 1:27:40.600 --> 1:27:43.960 try to connect with you with appropriate legal resources in 1:27:44.000 --> 1:27:48.559 your community. That is one way that I would encourage 1:27:48.600 --> 1:27:53.240 people to reach out if you are facing charges and 1:27:53.280 --> 1:27:57.280 you're having a hard time connecting with legal resources. That 1:27:57.400 --> 1:28:06.320 hotline is mostly for federal federal cases and for federal repression, 1:28:07.960 --> 1:28:10.120 but if you call it, we will do our best 1:28:10.160 --> 1:28:15.400 to connect you with appropriate resources wherever you are. And 1:28:15.439 --> 1:28:19.479 there are also some resources for lawyers that I wanted 1:28:19.479 --> 1:28:23.599 to hy appear, which are first of all the National 1:28:23.680 --> 1:28:28.720 Lawyer's Guild, which is a bar association for people who 1:28:28.800 --> 1:28:31.120 value human rights over property rights. 1:28:31.240 --> 1:28:33.920 What a dark situation that this is the subset of 1:28:34.400 --> 1:28:39.400 human beings. Yeah, that the nalgy are great some positive 1:28:39.520 --> 1:28:40.920 energy experiences. 1:28:41.920 --> 1:28:45.559 What a dark situation that it hadn't occurred to me. 1:28:46.400 --> 1:28:50.439 How telling that was about lawyers as a whole. 1:28:50.600 --> 1:28:53.760 Yeah, when a subset of your the subset of my 1:28:53.800 --> 1:28:58.200 profession is equally the dark and terrible people, we just 1:28:58.240 --> 1:29:01.720 have to try and be bettering. Guess. 1:29:01.920 --> 1:29:05.280 The other thing that is available for attorneys who are 1:29:05.560 --> 1:29:09.360 interested is there's a book put out by the same 1:29:09.400 --> 1:29:12.040 people who wrote The Tilted Guide to Being a Defendant 1:29:12.960 --> 1:29:17.640 for attorneys, and it's called Representing Radicals. And that is 1:29:17.960 --> 1:29:20.040 I think available through ak Press. 1:29:20.240 --> 1:29:22.080 You should buy it from Akape Press directly and not 1:29:22.120 --> 1:29:23.719 from Jeffrey Bezos in any way. 1:29:25.720 --> 1:29:30.960 Thank you. But and the other thing is there are 1:29:31.000 --> 1:29:33.639 a lot of attorneys around the country who are more 1:29:33.680 --> 1:29:41.360 than happy to consult, to act as mentors, to share motions, 1:29:41.400 --> 1:29:46.040 to share legal research. The people who work in movement 1:29:46.080 --> 1:29:54.360 spaces as lawyers, are typically always prepared to share our 1:29:54.520 --> 1:29:58.040 experience and resources because we have a stake in other 1:29:58.080 --> 1:30:02.360 people becoming really good at this. You know, you know, 1:30:02.439 --> 1:30:07.200 my goal is to have fewer clients. So if anyone 1:30:07.280 --> 1:30:12.400 is interested in helping me to achieve that goal, either 1:30:12.479 --> 1:30:17.640 by going to law school or by taking some of 1:30:17.680 --> 1:30:20.920 my clients or taking some of the people who might 1:30:20.960 --> 1:30:26.280 otherwise be my clients, please I would be delighted to 1:30:26.360 --> 1:30:30.120 shepherd you into movement defense. 1:30:30.640 --> 1:30:32.400 Yeah, that would be great. If we have any little 1:30:32.680 --> 1:30:35.200 like budding movement defenders, how would they be able to 1:30:35.360 --> 1:30:35.880 find you? 1:30:38.960 --> 1:30:41.120 Oh? Yes, if you would like to find me on 1:30:41.160 --> 1:30:46.520 the internet, please don't. But I do have a website 1:30:47.040 --> 1:30:49.559 that you can find if you google me. It is 1:30:49.680 --> 1:30:55.760 mo at Law and I am pretty available if you 1:30:55.840 --> 1:30:58.560 reach out to me by email and have questions. But 1:31:00.720 --> 1:31:04.200 generally when I come on these things, the only thing 1:31:04.240 --> 1:31:06.599 I have to plug is the concept of not talking 1:31:06.600 --> 1:31:07.000 to cops. 1:31:07.000 --> 1:31:08.280 I want to do an episode on that. Maybe we'll 1:31:08.280 --> 1:31:09.639 do it one day. I think we should do an 1:31:09.640 --> 1:31:14.639 expanded how to not talk to Cops guide the. 1:31:16.320 --> 1:31:18.400 I guess it's not just the concept of not talking 1:31:18.400 --> 1:31:21.240 to cops, it's actually the practice of not talking to cops. 1:31:21.600 --> 1:31:23.840 And certainly like it's somebody myself here that lives on 1:31:23.880 --> 1:31:26.680 the border and has to deal with all kinds of 1:31:26.760 --> 1:31:29.720 different jurisdictions of cops on an almost daily basis, just 1:31:29.920 --> 1:31:32.519 in the travel I need to do to live my life. 1:31:33.720 --> 1:31:36.120 It can be complicated and scary, and if you're not 1:31:36.160 --> 1:31:38.600 a citizen, it becomes even more complicated and scary. So, 1:31:39.200 --> 1:31:41.200 oh yeah, that's the thing we should discuss in detail. 1:31:41.600 --> 1:31:45.880 I would like to say that, apart from some very 1:31:46.240 --> 1:31:53.160 very specific exceptions that involve being at borders or being 1:31:53.360 --> 1:31:59.800 subpoenaed to a federal granchurie, you never have an obligation 1:32:01.040 --> 1:32:04.760 to talk to cops, to answer their questions, or to 1:32:04.840 --> 1:32:07.559 cooperate with their investigations. That doesn't mean you can obstruct 1:32:07.600 --> 1:32:15.680 their investigations, but you absolutely have no affirmative obligation to 1:32:15.760 --> 1:32:18.920 speak to police officers. And if they ask you, if 1:32:18.920 --> 1:32:21.360 they are trying to interrogate you or ask you questions, 1:32:21.400 --> 1:32:23.680 you can say I am going to remain silent and 1:32:23.720 --> 1:32:25.840 I want to speak to a lawyer. And if the 1:32:25.840 --> 1:32:29.040 FEDS show up at your house or call you on 1:32:29.080 --> 1:32:31.639 the phone, or come to your office or your place 1:32:31.640 --> 1:32:34.439 of work, you can say, I am represented by counsel. 1:32:35.400 --> 1:32:37.639 Please leave your name at number, and my lawyer will 1:32:37.640 --> 1:32:37.840 call you. 1:32:37.920 --> 1:32:41.720 Okay, Yeah, it's good to have scripts. I want to Yeah, 1:32:41.800 --> 1:32:44.679 I think we should. We should break down in detail 1:32:44.720 --> 1:32:46.519 some more socenarios. We should do it in another episode 1:32:46.520 --> 1:32:49.920 because it'll be maybe a bit longer. Yes, and yeah, 1:32:50.000 --> 1:32:54.080 I think folks, maybe I think everyone understands the concept. 1:32:54.439 --> 1:32:57.840 But the practice, and there's that advice you given their 1:32:57.920 --> 1:32:58.200 is great. 1:32:58.800 --> 1:33:02.160 Yeah. And if if you don't yet have an attorney 1:33:02.160 --> 1:33:05.360 and you feel uncomfortable saying I'm represented by counsel, you 1:33:05.360 --> 1:33:07.680 can just say, please leave your name and number and 1:33:07.720 --> 1:33:10.400 my lawyer will call you. And then you can call 1:33:10.680 --> 1:33:14.599 the National Lawyer's Skilled Anti Federal Repression Hotline at two 1:33:14.600 --> 1:33:18.320 and two six seven nine two eight point one and 1:33:18.439 --> 1:33:22.600 have a privileged conversation about your rights, risks and responsibilities 1:33:22.880 --> 1:33:26.280 and we can connect you with an attorney in your area. 1:33:26.640 --> 1:33:26.840 Yeah. 1:33:26.960 --> 1:33:30.559 That is excellent, actionable advice. Yeah, thank you so much 1:33:30.560 --> 1:33:34.280 for giving us so much of your time and help. Yeah, 1:33:34.400 --> 1:33:37.440 I really appreciate it. I'm sureveryone else does too. 1:33:38.760 --> 1:33:43.000 At all. It's my pleasure. I am always available to 1:33:43.040 --> 1:33:48.000 come and talk to you about various the various rights 1:33:48.000 --> 1:33:50.960 of people accused of criminal offenses. Usually I am talking 1:33:51.000 --> 1:33:54.400 about your rights with respect to the state. But it 1:33:54.439 --> 1:33:58.719 has become really evident that I needed to talk about 1:34:00.080 --> 1:34:03.160 people's rights with respect to their own attorneys. 1:34:03.400 --> 1:34:06.080 It's empowering for people to hear this, So I'm glad 1:34:06.120 --> 1:34:08.439 we talked about it too. 1:34:23.160 --> 1:34:29.280 It could happen here. It in Today's Harlance, meaning Tucker 1:34:29.320 --> 1:34:34.000 Carlson getting fired, because that's what we're talking about today 1:34:34.080 --> 1:34:38.360 is Today is one of our classic timely reaction episodes 1:34:38.760 --> 1:34:43.200 to the firing of Fox News fascist and popular anti 1:34:43.280 --> 1:34:47.559 semite Tucker Carlson. Today on the show to chat about 1:34:47.600 --> 1:34:52.280 all of this, I've got Garrison Davis, James Stout, Mio Wong, 1:34:52.520 --> 1:34:57.920 and Sophie Lichterman. Hi, everybody, Wow, where's the. 1:34:57.920 --> 1:35:00.240 Last time we got like the whole crew together. 1:35:01.040 --> 1:35:03.439 A long time? This? This is the bulk of us. 1:35:03.840 --> 1:35:07.520 Yeah. Yeah, And Sophie wasn't here for the com episode. 1:35:07.920 --> 1:35:11.520 No, Sophie. Sophie refused to be on for the com episode, 1:35:11.680 --> 1:35:17.040 threatening to quit, uh sadly. Yeah. 1:35:17.120 --> 1:35:17.400 Yeah. 1:35:17.439 --> 1:35:22.200 But so you know, today is a couple of days 1:35:22.280 --> 1:35:25.040 since we all got the surprising news that Tucker has 1:35:25.080 --> 1:35:27.400 been let go at Fox. This was news that was 1:35:27.439 --> 1:35:31.320 surprising to Tucker There's a couple of things that are 1:35:31.320 --> 1:35:36.360 funny about the announcement itself, namely that he signed off 1:35:36.680 --> 1:35:40.879 his last episode saying, see you guys next week. Fox 1:35:41.840 --> 1:35:44.120 Play in the messaging they've put out was like, you know, 1:35:44.200 --> 1:35:47.559 we both agreed that he needed to leave the network, 1:35:47.600 --> 1:35:52.000 that this is an amicable split. The Brian Kilmead, who 1:35:52.040 --> 1:35:56.840 replaced him the next episode with Fox News tonight, was like, 1:35:56.920 --> 1:35:59.400 Tucker and I are still good friends. He's just decided 1:36:00.320 --> 1:36:04.240 mutually to take a leave from the company. This is 1:36:04.520 --> 1:36:10.639 definitely not true. We'll talk a little bit about all 1:36:10.720 --> 1:36:12.720 of this, but the gist of I think it's kind 1:36:12.720 --> 1:36:16.080 of worth talking about, like why this happened. As far 1:36:16.120 --> 1:36:19.640 as we know, there's not, you know, objective kind of 1:36:19.840 --> 1:36:27.680 confirmation about why specifically he got fired, but the broad speculation. 1:36:28.320 --> 1:36:31.479 Some articles have like quoted a Fox News insider who 1:36:31.479 --> 1:36:34.800 says that it was due to something either he said 1:36:34.800 --> 1:36:39.040 in a recorded but unaired episode of the show, or 1:36:39.080 --> 1:36:41.600 that it was something that was found in the emails 1:36:42.160 --> 1:36:46.759 that were revealed during discovery that was profoundly anti semitic. 1:36:47.120 --> 1:36:51.160 I've heard out like in one source at least said 1:36:51.200 --> 1:36:53.240 that it was anti semitic enough that it might have 1:36:53.280 --> 1:36:58.640 been legally actionable. That's obviously like what the fuck? I 1:36:58.680 --> 1:37:03.760 would love to know what that's civically means. But what 1:37:03.840 --> 1:37:07.240 we do know is that a former producer for The 1:37:07.280 --> 1:37:10.720 Tucker Carlson Show who was a booking for him, is 1:37:10.800 --> 1:37:14.679 currently suing the network both for a hostile work environment. 1:37:14.800 --> 1:37:17.680 She claims that she was exposed to intense anti Semitism 1:37:17.720 --> 1:37:21.840 while working there, and she alleges that she was basically 1:37:22.400 --> 1:37:28.280 threatened into changing her deposition. So the lawsuit came alongside 1:37:28.280 --> 1:37:31.599 her like issuing a correction to her deposition and saying 1:37:31.640 --> 1:37:36.120 that she had basically lied in order like because she 1:37:36.320 --> 1:37:39.920 was being threatened by people at Fox, which is like, 1:37:40.800 --> 1:37:42.760 so there's a lot going on here. So that's kind 1:37:42.760 --> 1:37:44.880 of the gist of what we know right now as 1:37:44.880 --> 1:37:49.839 to like why he got shit canned. Yeah, that's that's 1:37:49.840 --> 1:37:51.120 that's the basics. 1:37:52.760 --> 1:37:54.960 It's interesting too that he it's been like a day 1:37:55.040 --> 1:37:58.360 now and he has said nothing. There have been multiple 1:37:58.360 --> 1:38:00.519 people who said that he's not responding to his texts, 1:38:00.600 --> 1:38:05.640 which is extremely funny. He I saw one report that 1:38:05.800 --> 1:38:07.200 I don't I don't know how accurate is. I saw 1:38:07.200 --> 1:38:09.400 one report that says he found out ten minutes before 1:38:09.840 --> 1:38:11.240 Fox like released the statement. 1:38:11.840 --> 1:38:14.800 Yeah, he was in contract negotiations, so he was in 1:38:14.840 --> 1:38:19.200 the middle of presumably getting Fox to agree to pay 1:38:19.240 --> 1:38:20.439 him a shitload more money. 1:38:21.560 --> 1:38:23.759 Yeah, and now he has no money, which is very funny. 1:38:24.160 --> 1:38:27.360 Well, yeah, he'll still probably get a lot of money somehow. 1:38:27.400 --> 1:38:27.559 Yeah. 1:38:27.720 --> 1:38:30.160 Yeah, i'd be interesting to see if he like pivots 1:38:30.200 --> 1:38:33.920 to something like like o Ann or News Max. I 1:38:33.960 --> 1:38:36.439 don't know if they have the means to pay him 1:38:36.479 --> 1:38:37.360 what he would probably see. 1:38:37.439 --> 1:38:39.439 Yeah, No, I mean this is this is one of 1:38:39.479 --> 1:38:42.599 the questions kind of following this and how and how 1:38:42.640 --> 1:38:46.240 this decision is gonna affect, you know, politics going forward, 1:38:46.280 --> 1:38:50.639 especially with twenty twenty four. Two big questions being where 1:38:50.680 --> 1:38:53.600 is Tucker going to go and who is going to 1:38:53.960 --> 1:38:56.519 take his place? For the next few weeks, Fox is 1:38:56.560 --> 1:39:00.599 probably just going to be doing like a rotating selection 1:39:00.880 --> 1:39:04.720 of hosts until they like make a final decision. So 1:39:05.200 --> 1:39:07.120 you know, a lot of people could could end up 1:39:07.240 --> 1:39:09.120 end up with that job. But in terms of where 1:39:09.160 --> 1:39:12.600 he's going, there's there's a few interesting options. Now it 1:39:12.680 --> 1:39:14.680 kind of does come down to who's going to be 1:39:14.680 --> 1:39:17.519 willing to pay the probably pretty high price, or if 1:39:17.520 --> 1:39:20.280 he's just going to try to stay independent. But I 1:39:20.280 --> 1:39:23.519 think something like Newsmax isn't isn't out of the question. 1:39:25.160 --> 1:39:28.840 I think I think this that this is this is 1:39:28.920 --> 1:39:31.080 just like a guess, but I think there's a decent 1:39:31.160 --> 1:39:32.960 chance that The Daily Wire is going to go after 1:39:33.040 --> 1:39:33.840 him really hard. 1:39:34.400 --> 1:39:36.200 Yeah, he's already. 1:39:35.880 --> 1:39:38.440 Pretty friendly with a lot of the people there. They've 1:39:38.439 --> 1:39:40.120 been willing to dishout a lot of money for someone 1:39:40.160 --> 1:39:43.519 like Stephen Crowder. Now Tucker will be undoubtedly more, but 1:39:43.560 --> 1:39:45.639 also he's going to be more of a pull, and 1:39:46.439 --> 1:39:49.360 that that is something that's entirely possible. I mean, the 1:39:49.400 --> 1:39:53.280 Daily Wire already produces like usually two of the most 1:39:53.320 --> 1:39:55.960 popular podcasts in the world, like in the top ten. 1:39:56.120 --> 1:39:57.559 They already have a lot, They have a lot of 1:39:57.560 --> 1:40:01.519 web traffic. They don't have like cable, but they get 1:40:01.560 --> 1:40:05.479 a lot of like other other ways to to to 1:40:06.000 --> 1:40:06.800 spread their work. 1:40:07.240 --> 1:40:10.719 They have a paid streaming service they yes, yes, they 1:40:10.800 --> 1:40:13.000 also have The Daily Plus. 1:40:13.400 --> 1:40:17.080 Yep, they are. I think that they're probably the only 1:40:17.280 --> 1:40:20.920 people in the right that can offer Tucker both money 1:40:20.960 --> 1:40:24.080 that's broadly in line with what Fox could and an 1:40:24.120 --> 1:40:29.080 audience that's that's sizeable. Potentially even an audience that's larger. 1:40:29.520 --> 1:40:31.320 One of the things to kind of keep in mind 1:40:31.400 --> 1:40:33.400 is that Tucker was going to get out three and 1:40:33.400 --> 1:40:36.200 a half million viewers a night somewhere around there, which 1:40:36.240 --> 1:40:40.759 made him the most popular uh host on cable news, 1:40:41.680 --> 1:40:47.200 but also is minuscule based on historical number one, minuscule 1:40:47.280 --> 1:40:50.280 based on the kind of audiences that like you can 1:40:50.360 --> 1:40:54.040 get on streaming platforms today, which are much larger than 1:40:54.080 --> 1:40:58.120 cable audiences, And is minuscule based on like I mean, 1:40:58.160 --> 1:40:59.840 it was like ten years ago that three and a 1:40:59.840 --> 1:41:02.320 half million viewers on a night ten fifteen years ago 1:41:02.360 --> 1:41:05.760 would have been like an unsuccessful show on ANBC, right, 1:41:06.320 --> 1:41:09.800 uh for for some for some perspective, the most successful 1:41:10.000 --> 1:41:12.800 TV finale of all time was the Mash finale, which 1:41:12.800 --> 1:41:17.360 had like one hundred and five million viewers. Like cable, 1:41:17.479 --> 1:41:20.400 cable don't or you know, television period does not get 1:41:20.400 --> 1:41:23.040 the kind of viewership that it does anymore. And I 1:41:23.400 --> 1:41:27.599 think when you're looking at Tucker, he is the the 1:41:27.640 --> 1:41:31.280 main draw for him has to be the audience. He's 1:41:31.280 --> 1:41:33.840 not and he's the heir to the Campbell or to 1:41:33.880 --> 1:41:37.640 the Swanson, you know, dinner of Fortune. He cannot be 1:41:37.760 --> 1:41:41.760 motivated primarily by the paycheck. Right that that that there's 1:41:41.840 --> 1:41:44.200 he's simply like it. Just that can't be the reason 1:41:44.240 --> 1:41:49.240 he's doing it. It has to be the the fame, 1:41:49.400 --> 1:41:53.280 you know, And so Daily Wire I think is a 1:41:53.479 --> 1:41:56.400 likely place for him as a result of that. 1:41:57.040 --> 1:41:59.599 Yeah, another thing that's interesting I thought it is okay 1:41:59.720 --> 1:42:02.960 Man mentioned that he hasn't said anything yet and he's 1:42:03.040 --> 1:42:07.519 probably taking advice from his lawyer, Brian Friedman, who incidentally 1:42:07.560 --> 1:42:11.200 is the same dude who's representing Don Lemon who lost 1:42:11.200 --> 1:42:18.560 his job on the same day, which is for that guy, 1:42:19.360 --> 1:42:21.400 it is a good year for this guy. He like, 1:42:21.640 --> 1:42:23.479 this is the guy who gets a ship ton of 1:42:23.479 --> 1:42:26.320 money from networks when people get fired from networks, like 1:42:26.360 --> 1:42:32.760 he has represented like Megan Kelly before. Like, when you 1:42:32.800 --> 1:42:35.040 hear of a famous person getting let go by network, 1:42:35.280 --> 1:42:38.360 it's probably this guy who's representing them. I thought it 1:42:38.400 --> 1:42:42.200 was utterly hilarious that, yeah, both of them retained the 1:42:42.200 --> 1:42:44.920 same guy on the same day having been fired. But 1:42:45.560 --> 1:42:49.040 thinking about lawyering up, it made me think about like 1:42:49.960 --> 1:42:55.080 Sophie mentioned it that like Carlson defames people, he lies 1:42:55.160 --> 1:42:57.840 on an almost daily basis. Right, We recently spoke about 1:42:57.840 --> 1:43:02.160 how he took the statistics of Russian deaths from those 1:43:02.200 --> 1:43:05.000 league's documents, that he used the blatantly altered version of 1:43:05.000 --> 1:43:08.320 those documents long after everyone knew they'd been altered. Right, 1:43:09.200 --> 1:43:13.000 he needs serious legal clout to defend him from the 1:43:13.040 --> 1:43:15.360 fact that he lies into fames people every single day. 1:43:15.400 --> 1:43:18.719 So like going even though he has a sizable fortune, 1:43:18.840 --> 1:43:21.479 going out on his own would be costly in the 1:43:21.560 --> 1:43:24.160 sense of like he would almost have to be permanently 1:43:24.200 --> 1:43:25.160 defending himself. 1:43:25.600 --> 1:43:27.200 Yeah, and I think I think this is one of 1:43:27.280 --> 1:43:29.960 the things where, well it's not clear to me what 1:43:30.000 --> 1:43:31.840 the impact is of the Alex Johnes trial has been, 1:43:31.840 --> 1:43:33.320 but this is one of those things where I think 1:43:33.720 --> 1:43:36.960 the dominion people actually just nailing Fox to the wall 1:43:37.120 --> 1:43:40.320 is going to be a sort of big factor here 1:43:40.320 --> 1:43:43.120 because it makes it seem easier and more plausible on 1:43:43.200 --> 1:43:45.439 things that like lawyers are willing to risk getting in 1:43:45.479 --> 1:43:48.720 fights about for actually going after these people, for just 1:43:48.880 --> 1:43:51.880 like defending people. And so yeah, it'll be it'll be 1:43:51.920 --> 1:43:55.800 interesting to see, like how how long Tucker can last 1:43:55.840 --> 1:43:57.519 on his own before he gets into a giant court 1:43:57.560 --> 1:44:01.439 battle with someone, and whether he is I don't know, 1:44:01.479 --> 1:44:03.200 attempts to be slightly more careful. 1:44:05.600 --> 1:44:07.840 Yeah, like I yeah, exactly. I don't think if he's 1:44:07.880 --> 1:44:10.040 if he goes to YouTube or something, he's not going 1:44:10.080 --> 1:44:13.000 to be spending his his frozen dinner fortune on legal fees. 1:44:13.000 --> 1:44:15.240 I don't think so he and he can't do what 1:44:15.320 --> 1:44:18.360 he does without spouting shit, right, Like his whole thing 1:44:18.560 --> 1:44:21.519 is just straight up lying and doing this sort of 1:44:21.600 --> 1:44:24.639 credulous fool routine that he does, which which always results 1:44:24.640 --> 1:44:27.400 in these ridiculous conclusions that he comes to. So like, 1:44:28.800 --> 1:44:30.320 I don't know with that, maybe the daily why I 1:44:30.320 --> 1:44:32.120 can suderstain that I don't really have a good sense 1:44:32.280 --> 1:44:35.840 of sort of their clout if people aren't familiar. Should 1:44:35.840 --> 1:44:39.040 we summarize the dominion case? I know you've spoken about 1:44:39.040 --> 1:44:39.240 it on. 1:44:39.200 --> 1:44:41.600 Fast Yeah I did. I mean you can listen to 1:44:41.640 --> 1:44:44.200 the two parter I did with Katie and Cody on 1:44:44.760 --> 1:44:47.080 on the dominion lawsuit where he basically just go over 1:44:47.280 --> 1:44:51.800 the entire document that Dominion prepared for that. But the 1:44:51.840 --> 1:44:55.559 gist of it is that Tucker knowingly and knowingly. We 1:44:55.680 --> 1:45:00.160 know that he knew because the discovery process revealed a 1:45:00.200 --> 1:45:02.840 bunch of his text messages and emails where he talked 1:45:02.840 --> 1:45:09.240 about knowing that the election fraud conspiracy theory was bullshit, 1:45:09.760 --> 1:45:13.800 and he propagated it and attacks against Dominion and another company, Smartmatic, 1:45:14.760 --> 1:45:18.439 in order to keep his audience on board, which is 1:45:18.600 --> 1:45:21.439 a criminal you know, defamation or not criminal, but at 1:45:21.479 --> 1:45:24.599 least like legally actionable you can sue as as Dominion 1:45:24.600 --> 1:45:27.320 did and one like eight hundred million bucks. And I 1:45:27.360 --> 1:45:31.120 do think that's really worth That is kind of pertinent 1:45:31.120 --> 1:45:33.679 when we're talking about who's going to take him next, 1:45:33.680 --> 1:45:36.920 because like, obviously the Daily Wire would want a guy 1:45:37.439 --> 1:45:40.719 like Tucker except for the fact that he could cost 1:45:40.720 --> 1:45:42.920 them another eight hundred million dollars, which has to be 1:45:43.000 --> 1:45:45.200 has to be part of the calculus of any company 1:45:45.680 --> 1:45:48.160 looking at taking him on, And I think is something 1:45:48.600 --> 1:45:50.599 none of us, nobody really knows what's going to happen 1:45:50.640 --> 1:45:52.240 with this, but I think there is a good chance 1:45:53.320 --> 1:45:56.840 he is permanently marginalized in terms of audience just because 1:45:56.840 --> 1:46:00.680 of how much like eight hundred million dollars is not 1:46:00.840 --> 1:46:03.040 enough to sink Fox on its own, but it is 1:46:03.160 --> 1:46:05.559 enough to make anybody looking at bringing Tucker on board. 1:46:06.000 --> 1:46:11.080 The second guest, Yeah, I sawso numbers that were I 1:46:11.160 --> 1:46:13.200 think I think they were saying he was bringing in 1:46:13.240 --> 1:46:17.040 the highest like amount of revenue of any like like 1:46:17.120 --> 1:46:18.599 Kimble News anchor. But it was like it was like 1:46:18.880 --> 1:46:21.120 seventy eight million dollars a year and he lost like 1:46:21.240 --> 1:46:24.479 so he lost ten years of his income. 1:46:25.880 --> 1:46:29.960 He basically lost it, lost everything he'd made Fox during 1:46:30.000 --> 1:46:32.240 the time when he was the number one Get news house. 1:46:32.439 --> 1:46:35.200 Yeah, and that has to be that has to be 1:46:35.240 --> 1:46:37.960 a huge part of the coculus of like, Okay, you 1:46:38.000 --> 1:46:40.519 know these are these people like as as as as 1:46:40.600 --> 1:46:43.320 much as the right is ideological, it is also capitalist 1:46:43.400 --> 1:46:46.720 and the risk reward on that is terrifying. 1:46:47.040 --> 1:46:49.120 Yeah, and I like, especially when it comes to the 1:46:49.200 --> 1:46:53.040 Daily Wire, a cost like that would just probably make 1:46:53.080 --> 1:46:54.560 their entire company fold. 1:46:54.520 --> 1:46:56.720 Because they don't have Murdock behind them. 1:46:56.880 --> 1:47:00.240 They're not They're not that big of a company, just 1:47:00.280 --> 1:47:03.439 have a disproportionate amount of influence because their hosts are 1:47:03.439 --> 1:47:06.280 really good at like marketing and social media manipulation. 1:47:06.439 --> 1:47:09.920 Yeah yeah, yeah, I ad revenue. That would be a 1:47:09.960 --> 1:47:12.080 great time for us to pivot to and for some 1:47:12.160 --> 1:47:13.479 gold coins with Reagan. 1:47:13.600 --> 1:47:16.240 Oh yeah, yeah. You can hear the ads for the 1:47:16.280 --> 1:47:19.960 new podcasts that are our future. Colleague Tucker Carlson's gonna 1:47:20.000 --> 1:47:20.360 be doing. 1:47:20.840 --> 1:47:21.600 Yeah. 1:47:21.680 --> 1:47:23.360 Yeah, it's whay Ym and Don Lemon just. 1:47:23.280 --> 1:47:26.519 Have yeah, him and Don Lemon. We we're calling it. 1:47:27.320 --> 1:47:29.880 H I don't know, there's there's a good there's a 1:47:29.920 --> 1:47:32.439 good there's a good joke with their two names somewhere. 1:47:32.560 --> 1:47:34.840 I haven't figured it out yet though, So you do 1:47:34.880 --> 1:47:39.800 that for yourselves, audience. Ah, what a good what a 1:47:39.840 --> 1:47:43.520 good time that we're talking about here. This is just 1:47:43.520 --> 1:47:48.400 just just a great day, great week. Uh So, yeah, 1:47:48.520 --> 1:47:50.599 we're looking at you know, I think kind of when 1:47:50.600 --> 1:47:55.000 we're talking about what's possible here and Daily Wirey agree 1:47:55.000 --> 1:47:57.080 is kind of the most likely thing. If you look 1:47:57.120 --> 1:48:00.000 at what leaked recently during their drama with Stephen Krawt, 1:48:00.240 --> 1:48:02.920 the contract they were offering Crowder was somewhere around thirty 1:48:02.920 --> 1:48:06.200 million dollars, which, from everything people have said, is a 1:48:06.200 --> 1:48:08.320 big deal for them. That's one of the biggest, bigger 1:48:08.360 --> 1:48:15.519 offerings they're capable of doing. That is, you know, probably 1:48:15.520 --> 1:48:19.160 the most Tucker is realistically going to be able to get. 1:48:19.200 --> 1:48:20.080 But also. 1:48:21.760 --> 1:48:23.479 One of the things that kind of is noteworthy about 1:48:23.479 --> 1:48:25.959 the contract they were offering Crowder is that it included 1:48:26.040 --> 1:48:31.960 clauses where like Crowder's take home could be reduced significantly 1:48:32.040 --> 1:48:36.040 if he got kicked off of platforms and fucking Tucker 1:48:36.080 --> 1:48:39.960 Carlson is not going to keep it a YouTube account. 1:48:41.960 --> 1:48:44.200 I mean it is. It is interesting in that sense 1:48:44.240 --> 1:48:48.640 of like they were they all of his content was 1:48:48.760 --> 1:48:51.639 able to be kept up when he was under Fox. 1:48:51.760 --> 1:48:53.959 Like on YouTube you can find all of his segments, 1:48:54.200 --> 1:48:56.360 and it'd be interesting to see how the content moderation 1:48:56.439 --> 1:48:59.000 differs if like he starts his own channel and how 1:48:59.080 --> 1:49:03.479 and how comparatively what things would be would be counted 1:49:03.520 --> 1:49:06.479 as like community guideline strikes. But yeah, I mean just 1:49:06.560 --> 1:49:10.240 I think I think, like last week Matt Walsh's show 1:49:10.400 --> 1:49:14.400 got demonetized on YouTube, which if his contract is anything 1:49:14.439 --> 1:49:17.479 like Crowters, means that he is gonna be suffering up 1:49:17.479 --> 1:49:18.880 like a personal financial hit. 1:49:19.320 --> 1:49:22.839 Yeah, he's they're taking probably you know, in the millions 1:49:22.960 --> 1:49:23.679 that he's losing. 1:49:24.360 --> 1:49:26.760 Yeah, And there's something I think this is an interesting 1:49:27.560 --> 1:49:30.759 thing that's been happening in the last maybe like six months, 1:49:31.000 --> 1:49:36.439 has been there's there's been sort of increasing tension between 1:49:37.520 --> 1:49:40.760 sort of the far right that's basically sees control the 1:49:40.760 --> 1:49:44.400 Republican Party and like the money, and they keep running 1:49:44.439 --> 1:49:47.200 into these issues where in order to keep their base going, 1:49:47.240 --> 1:49:49.880 they need to say stuff that like their sort of 1:49:50.080 --> 1:49:53.439 like corporate backers are like, this is either losing us 1:49:53.479 --> 1:49:57.200 money or is so far out there that like it's 1:49:57.479 --> 1:49:59.639 you know, it's it's either directly losing us money from lawsuits, 1:49:59.880 --> 1:50:02.760 or or it's losing us elections, or it's losing us 1:50:03.040 --> 1:50:06.400 like business. And now I'm never gonna claim that like 1:50:06.560 --> 1:50:09.880 Murdoch is not the far right, because he is. But 1:50:10.200 --> 1:50:14.559 it's interesting that we've gotten to a point where people 1:50:14.600 --> 1:50:18.559 like Murdoch are getting more gun shy about what they 1:50:18.560 --> 1:50:22.599 can put on air because it's finally like the money 1:50:22.680 --> 1:50:25.200 is finally starting to see actual consequences, and they're starting 1:50:25.200 --> 1:50:26.800 to pull back from the stuff a little bit. 1:50:27.160 --> 1:50:31.000 Well, see, that's part of what I'm questioning is I'm 1:50:31.080 --> 1:50:34.720 sure that that is something that's entering his calculus more 1:50:34.760 --> 1:50:39.160 now since the settlement, but it's at least the earlier 1:50:39.200 --> 1:50:42.479 reporting suggests that's not really why, or at least not 1:50:42.560 --> 1:50:44.720 most of the reason why Tucker got shit canned. It's 1:50:45.080 --> 1:50:48.320 a bunch of shit like stuff that is not revealed 1:50:48.400 --> 1:50:51.000 yet in the deposition that he was saying an email. 1:50:51.080 --> 1:50:52.519 I mean, one of the things came out that woman 1:50:52.560 --> 1:50:55.519 who is accusing him of creating a sexist and anti 1:50:55.520 --> 1:50:59.679 semitic work environment. Is that he like when she got hired, 1:50:59.720 --> 1:51:05.559 he clustered swimsuit photos of Nancy Pelosi over her office, 1:51:06.040 --> 1:51:09.000 And that's what we've heard, like the ship that Like, 1:51:09.560 --> 1:51:14.479 I think it's possible, uh that what actually got Murdoch 1:51:14.520 --> 1:51:17.960 to make the call to can him is that he 1:51:18.560 --> 1:51:22.360 Murdoch himself found out through discovery that he was saying 1:51:22.400 --> 1:51:26.680 shit in emails that would sink the company, Like if 1:51:26.680 --> 1:51:30.120 he's saying full on Nazi shit. Yeah, and there's there's 1:51:30.240 --> 1:51:34.479 documentation of that, which I don't think is unlikely he 1:51:34.520 --> 1:51:36.200 had on it, like yeah. 1:51:36.080 --> 1:51:37.960 There's no there's there's there's no there's no limit at 1:51:37.960 --> 1:51:38.559 that point. 1:51:38.400 --> 1:51:41.600 Like yeah, no, the like clearly that ship aligns with 1:51:41.640 --> 1:51:44.480 his views, and he's made a concerted effort to mainstream 1:51:44.560 --> 1:51:48.000 more and more outright fascist New Genesis white supremacist talking 1:51:48.040 --> 1:51:51.840 points every year he's had that show, so it would know, 1:51:51.960 --> 1:51:54.720 especially when they got his text messages, Like he might 1:51:54.800 --> 1:51:57.559 be smart enough not to like maybe use his work email, 1:51:58.200 --> 1:52:00.360 but I think that the fact that he's there were 1:52:00.360 --> 1:52:03.880 some things in his text messages and yeah, that wouldn't 1:52:03.880 --> 1:52:06.519 surprise me. It's either that or he said something personal 1:52:06.560 --> 1:52:08.559 about one of the Murdochs, and. 1:52:09.800 --> 1:52:14.120 Well he did. He did talk shit about Fox executives, 1:52:15.200 --> 1:52:19.000 which some people have suggested as like part of why 1:52:19.040 --> 1:52:20.960 they made the decision. It can him that he actually 1:52:21.000 --> 1:52:25.479 just pissed off the moneymen too, and this was kind 1:52:25.520 --> 1:52:30.120 of an excuse to take more action. Again, like it's 1:52:30.240 --> 1:52:32.720 it's it's kind of unclear exactly what happened. I think 1:52:32.720 --> 1:52:35.120 it's probably worth talking about in the last portion of 1:52:35.160 --> 1:52:39.000 this what impact, because it is likely that whatever happens, 1:52:40.040 --> 1:52:44.519 he's he's going to have less reach and at least 1:52:44.720 --> 1:52:47.280 less reach in like a practical way, because if Tucker 1:52:47.640 --> 1:52:50.160 starts a podcast, even if the podcast has kind of 1:52:50.200 --> 1:52:52.160 more you know, through Daily Wire or whatever, even if 1:52:52.200 --> 1:52:57.320 it's got on paper more listeners than Fox, I think 1:52:57.479 --> 1:53:03.600 there's something about cable news where you're reaching an audience 1:53:03.760 --> 1:53:07.200 that's that's different with the ideas that he was When 1:53:07.200 --> 1:53:09.840 he was on Fox, he was hitting people who would 1:53:09.840 --> 1:53:13.000 never have encountered some of this like fascist shit, this 1:53:13.080 --> 1:53:17.320 great replacement stuff, whereas if he's saying the same thing 1:53:17.560 --> 1:53:21.720 on a Daily Wire podcast, he's probably talking more to 1:53:21.840 --> 1:53:25.720 people who are already pilled, so to speak. So I 1:53:26.439 --> 1:53:30.040 do think there's a good chance that overall this kind 1:53:30.080 --> 1:53:31.559 of tanks his ability to. 1:53:32.680 --> 1:53:35.519 Actually like influence culture inful way. 1:53:35.640 --> 1:53:39.880 Radicalized boomers like everyone listening can probably think of a 1:53:39.880 --> 1:53:42.559 person who they know or is in their sort of 1:53:43.000 --> 1:53:45.680 greatest circle of people who their friends know, who is 1:53:45.720 --> 1:53:48.240 an older person who is very much offline and has 1:53:48.360 --> 1:53:51.439 encountered these great replacement ideas through Tucker Carlson and become 1:53:51.479 --> 1:53:54.120 a significantly worse person because of Tucker Carlson's program. 1:53:54.400 --> 1:53:57.160 Yeah, I mean, and you can you can see how 1:53:57.760 --> 1:54:00.680 all of the Daily Wire guys like like Wall and Mike, 1:54:00.680 --> 1:54:03.599 Michael Noles and even someone like Andy No, they they 1:54:03.680 --> 1:54:06.000 suck up to Carlson so much and have been for 1:54:06.040 --> 1:54:08.519 the past few years because they realized that that actually 1:54:08.520 --> 1:54:11.680 gives them cultural access to be on his show on 1:54:11.720 --> 1:54:14.720 that platform in a way that they're much more like 1:54:14.760 --> 1:54:18.160 Peterson too, Pete Peterson. Sure, I think Peterson's broken into 1:54:18.160 --> 1:54:18.599 the mainstream. 1:54:18.640 --> 1:54:19.439 I think a bit more. 1:54:19.680 --> 1:54:22.120 But like all of these other guys like like Andy No, 1:54:22.320 --> 1:54:27.519 Walsh Knowles, they're all heavily like Internet people, and they 1:54:27.560 --> 1:54:31.759 influence like Internet shit, and sometimes that can start crossing over. 1:54:32.160 --> 1:54:36.160 But in general, the cable news platform kind of reiffies 1:54:36.200 --> 1:54:39.520 things into broader culture in a way that someone like 1:54:39.920 --> 1:54:44.520 Walsh just doesn't because he like, most people don't know 1:54:44.840 --> 1:54:49.160 who walshes, but most people do know who Tucker is. 1:54:49.560 --> 1:54:53.400 And that is my interesting is lifelong Republican voter. And 1:54:53.440 --> 1:54:56.000 when I talked to him complaining about shit Matt Walsh 1:54:56.120 --> 1:54:57.720 is doing, Like the first thing he said was like, 1:54:57.760 --> 1:55:00.640 I've never heard of this guy. Yeah, And it's like, yeah, 1:55:00.640 --> 1:55:03.800 because he's a fucking internet weirdo. And my dad doesn't 1:55:03.880 --> 1:55:07.160 you know, he knows Ben Shapiro because Ben breaks through 1:55:07.160 --> 1:55:09.560 to the mainstream, but he knows Ben Shapiro from like 1:55:09.640 --> 1:55:13.440 catching clips of him randomly being shared on Facebook by 1:55:13.480 --> 1:55:15.960 other people in his age group, as opposed to like 1:55:16.920 --> 1:55:19.440 seeking this shit out. And that's kind of the power 1:55:19.480 --> 1:55:21.680 of Tucker. And I think one of the things you've 1:55:21.680 --> 1:55:24.960 seen Gear that you were kind of talking at, which 1:55:25.000 --> 1:55:28.840 is the thing that is maybe most hopeful to me, 1:55:29.320 --> 1:55:32.520 is how scared people like Andy know Glenn Greenwald flipped 1:55:32.560 --> 1:55:34.760 the fuck out when this gun announced because they see 1:55:35.960 --> 1:55:38.640 this is a major threat to their reach into their 1:55:38.680 --> 1:55:43.160 earning potential. Yeah, Tucker can't host them anymore. That's potentially 1:55:43.280 --> 1:55:46.240 disastrous for them, and the fact that that's happening right 1:55:46.240 --> 1:55:48.800 as we're gearing up for twenty twenty four is something 1:55:48.840 --> 1:55:51.120 I'm hopeful about. At least I'll say. 1:55:52.760 --> 1:55:57.480 It is a massive like rejection of that platform to yeah, 1:55:57.560 --> 1:56:00.440 people like that like this type of like rhetoric Tucker 1:56:00.560 --> 1:56:03.400 is doing. Having this be like publicly rejected in this 1:56:03.480 --> 1:56:05.440 way will make all these people that are more on 1:56:05.480 --> 1:56:09.000 the fringes probably make it harder for them to break 1:56:09.040 --> 1:56:11.560 through in little ways like they used to try to 1:56:11.840 --> 1:56:13.919 by being on Tucker as a show. 1:56:14.280 --> 1:56:21.360 Speaking of reifying things into the broader culture. Buy these 1:56:22.040 --> 1:56:24.600 products and we're back. 1:56:24.640 --> 1:56:27.360 Okay. So there's one other thing that I We've could 1:56:27.360 --> 1:56:28.920 have been touching on it, but I think it's really 1:56:28.920 --> 1:56:32.520 interesting is that Tucker. Tucker basically has this sort of 1:56:32.600 --> 1:56:35.480 media ecosystem that revolves around him, and you know, there's 1:56:35.480 --> 1:56:39.200 a very established pathway for how you can become a 1:56:39.240 --> 1:56:42.440 sort of like a successful and profitable right wing grifter 1:56:42.560 --> 1:56:44.760 which goes through you know, you sort of go viral 1:56:44.800 --> 1:56:47.200 on Twitter, you go viral on TikTok, and then you 1:56:47.240 --> 1:56:49.200 go on a Tucker and you know, and like like 1:56:49.240 --> 1:56:51.160 people like lives a TikTok, right, Like, I think I 1:56:51.160 --> 1:56:54.840 think there's there's a certific kind of media campaign that 1:56:55.160 --> 1:56:59.600 even with whoever, like whatever absolute asshole that like Fox 1:56:59.640 --> 1:57:02.920 puts in that slot after Tucker's you know, when whatever 1:57:02.920 --> 1:57:05.000 they sort of figure out who that's going to be, Like, 1:57:05.280 --> 1:57:07.040 there's still I think going to be sort of a 1:57:07.080 --> 1:57:09.520 hole there. Yeah, where I think it gets harder to 1:57:09.600 --> 1:57:12.320 run the kinds the very the very very specific kinds 1:57:12.320 --> 1:57:15.520 of campaigns like liber tich talk, like the sort of 1:57:15.520 --> 1:57:18.600 mods for liberty shit that that's been just making the 1:57:18.600 --> 1:57:23.320 country unfathomably awful for the past few years. 1:57:23.280 --> 1:57:26.080 With like that. I've been kind of working on writing 1:57:26.120 --> 1:57:28.800 something scripted about this trans panic that happened in a 1:57:28.840 --> 1:57:32.000 town very near me in Santi right, which like was 1:57:32.600 --> 1:57:37.280 an extremely clear like like that was the goal, right, 1:57:37.400 --> 1:57:41.240 like like do to speech, go go viral, go on 1:57:41.320 --> 1:57:44.080 Tucker create, you know, then go on the speaking circuit, 1:57:44.120 --> 1:57:45.840 make money. Like to me, at least, it seems very 1:57:45.840 --> 1:57:47.280 clear that that was that was the goal. 1:57:47.440 --> 1:57:50.200 And I yeah, he's he's a weapons system that they 1:57:50.440 --> 1:57:53.280 they have learned, like has become kind of the center 1:57:53.480 --> 1:57:58.160 of right wing strategy really is like get on Tucker 1:57:58.960 --> 1:58:02.400 cause you know moral panic culture warship yep. 1:58:02.440 --> 1:58:04.800 Yeah, and and you know, and like obviously like other 1:58:04.840 --> 1:58:07.160 Fox shows do this stuff, it doesn't work anywhere anywhere 1:58:07.160 --> 1:58:07.800 near as well. 1:58:07.880 --> 1:58:10.320 And now I think it's the person the person that 1:58:10.320 --> 1:58:13.280 gets the closest is probably Laura Ingram, but I think 1:58:13.360 --> 1:58:16.480 she she kind of suffers from the glass ceiling problems. 1:58:16.600 --> 1:58:21.720 Yeah, she actually cannot be Yeah, I mean, but. 1:58:21.880 --> 1:58:26.879 I've Brad Masogy. I stand with Laura. 1:58:26.880 --> 1:58:30.640 Ingram rub Big specifically viewing Tucker as this thing that 1:58:30.720 --> 1:58:32.800 was like a targeted weapon. I think it's a really 1:58:32.800 --> 1:58:35.320 good way to look at this, and specifically now that 1:58:35.320 --> 1:58:39.760 that weapon no longer can like actually aim correctly because. 1:58:40.320 --> 1:58:42.520 Or at least may not be able to write. I mean, 1:58:42.520 --> 1:58:46.160 maybe he'll come back and we're wrong, but I I 1:58:47.080 --> 1:58:50.360 am optimistic. I think it all said, Yeah, it. 1:58:50.600 --> 1:58:52.760 Puts a spanner in the works of the hate machine 1:58:52.920 --> 1:58:55.200 that that he built and the folks built, and that's 1:58:55.200 --> 1:58:55.640 a good thing. 1:58:56.120 --> 1:58:59.440 But Mia, you were saying before I rudely interrupted. 1:58:58.960 --> 1:59:00.920 You, you asked, all you. 1:59:02.400 --> 1:59:05.120 Cannot remember what what I was gonna say. 1:59:05.160 --> 1:59:08.960 You're talking about how how how other other hosts kind 1:59:09.000 --> 1:59:09.920 of do the thing but. 1:59:09.920 --> 1:59:11.320 Not the Yeah. 1:59:11.880 --> 1:59:13.680 Well, I mean part of it also is just you know, 1:59:13.720 --> 1:59:15.840 part of the power of Tucker is just the time 1:59:15.880 --> 1:59:18.880 slot that he's in, Yeah, which is you know that 1:59:18.880 --> 1:59:20.640 that that's the one where like all of the people 1:59:20.680 --> 1:59:22.840 who've gotten off of work, who are like turning on 1:59:22.880 --> 1:59:26.000 the television at night get to But yeah, like Tuck, 1:59:26.080 --> 1:59:29.520 Tucker was I think was really in in the entirety 1:59:29.600 --> 1:59:32.640 of the sort of TV and media sphere, was uniquely 1:59:32.640 --> 1:59:35.680 good at that stuff and no one else, no one 1:59:35.680 --> 1:59:37.160 else can do it like that, and you know, like 1:59:37.200 --> 1:59:39.680 the like if the Fox people will create someone else, 1:59:40.280 --> 1:59:42.880 but until they fill that spot, A, there's a gap, 1:59:42.960 --> 1:59:45.760 and B it really remains to be seen whether seeing 1:59:45.800 --> 1:59:49.200 whether they're going to sort of pick someone who is 1:59:49.560 --> 1:59:53.080 as embedded in like that part of the sort of 1:59:53.080 --> 1:59:55.360 fascists right as Tucker is, or if they're going to 1:59:55.400 --> 1:59:59.080 find someone who's like, i mean still really really right 1:59:59.120 --> 2:00:02.680 wing and sucks but isn't like having ye on. 2:00:03.320 --> 2:00:06.000 Yeah, yeah, And it's I mean, I am kind of 2:00:06.080 --> 2:00:10.560 curious slash worried about who's going to follow him into 2:00:10.600 --> 2:00:15.120 that time slot. Folks, real old heads will know Tucker 2:00:15.240 --> 2:00:18.760 got his job after Bill O'Reilly, who was the Fox 2:00:18.800 --> 2:00:22.560 News fascist of my childhood, got shit canned for sexual 2:00:22.600 --> 2:00:26.760 harassment on an industrial scale. Uh, and so that's that's 2:00:26.840 --> 2:00:30.560 why Tucker is in. And obviously as bad as Bill was, 2:00:30.600 --> 2:00:33.600 Tucker was worse, and maybe the person who follows Tucker 2:00:33.640 --> 2:00:36.480 will be worse than Tucker. I do have trouble imagining 2:00:36.600 --> 2:00:40.080 what that could be, because my god, he really he went. 2:00:40.160 --> 2:00:41.680 He went right up to the edge of putting on 2:00:41.720 --> 2:00:43.160 a fucking swastik arm band. 2:00:43.400 --> 2:00:46.120 Yeah. Yeah, I will say about the Bill Orilelly people, 2:00:46.120 --> 2:00:48.040 people have been like, oh, like, Tucker's going to disappear 2:00:48.080 --> 2:00:49.760 in the way Bill o'reiley did. I don't. I don't 2:00:49.760 --> 2:00:52.000 think that's I think he's going to be a bigger 2:00:52.640 --> 2:00:56.320 like But assuming he winds up somewhere, I think he'll 2:00:56.520 --> 2:00:59.440 still be a bigger influence than like Bill O'Reilly was 2:00:59.440 --> 2:01:00.480 after he got but. 2:01:00.640 --> 2:01:04.560 Yeah, I mean Bill was also a lot older, right, Yeah, yeah. 2:01:04.120 --> 2:01:06.560 No, I think that is that is an accurate assessment. 2:01:07.400 --> 2:01:11.200 Mm hmm. Well excited, excited to get my new Rumble 2:01:11.240 --> 2:01:17.640 subscriptions so I can watch Oh yeah, yeah. 2:01:18.400 --> 2:01:21.400 It's going to be uh glorious to see him finally 2:01:21.960 --> 2:01:25.080 pair up with Tim Poole, the two, the two of 2:01:25.080 --> 2:01:28.680 them carrying AK forty seven, so doing field journalism in 2:01:28.720 --> 2:01:29.600 twenty twenty four. 2:01:29.920 --> 2:01:33.000 Yeah, yeah, Tucker casting, for those are not familiar, carried 2:01:33.000 --> 2:01:36.640 a gun when reporting in a rock, which for many 2:01:36.680 --> 2:01:38.960 reasons it's a fucking terrible idea, including putting f one 2:01:38.960 --> 2:01:40.280 else doing your changer. 2:01:41.000 --> 2:01:43.800 But it is really funny. It's very I will, I 2:01:43.800 --> 2:01:45.280 will say that it is funny. 2:01:45.600 --> 2:01:48.840 I I genuine like part of me doesn't, but part 2:01:48.840 --> 2:01:50.440 of me does. Hope he decides to do a thing 2:01:50.480 --> 2:01:52.160 where he's like, I'm gonna go do field journalism in 2:01:52.280 --> 2:01:52.920 Ukraine and just. 2:01:53.720 --> 2:01:59.080 Seemed so I will, it's fucking marked by God, damn 2:01:59.240 --> 2:02:02.040 like happens, No, no, no, you know what happens. 2:02:02.240 --> 2:02:06.760 He he imbeds with the aesoff battalion. Yeah, and they 2:02:06.920 --> 2:02:08.280 all get taken out. 2:02:11.680 --> 2:02:13.240 God willing kindness. 2:02:13.280 --> 2:02:15.840 But I think one thing I was serfinally thinking about, 2:02:16.160 --> 2:02:19.640 like the past few years, less less so that this 2:02:19.640 --> 2:02:22.640 this like past year specifically, but for a while it 2:02:22.680 --> 2:02:25.120 was a quite frightening prospect to think about what if 2:02:25.160 --> 2:02:28.520 Tucker was going to run for president? And I don't 2:02:28.880 --> 2:02:31.240 think he is. He is not going to do that 2:02:31.280 --> 2:02:34.040 in twenty twenty four. Absolutely, that's that's that's not happening. 2:02:35.440 --> 2:02:38.240 But I mean it's still possible he could in the future. 2:02:38.280 --> 2:02:42.080 Twenty twenty eight is likely, uh if, if he wants. 2:02:42.320 --> 2:02:45.160 But I think the loss of this position at this 2:02:45.240 --> 2:02:49.960 point in time will probably affect that decision because it's 2:02:49.960 --> 2:02:52.280 something he's certainly been thinking about, considering he's one of 2:02:52.280 --> 2:02:55.120 the most influential conservative people on the Yeah, like on 2:02:55.200 --> 2:02:55.720 the planet. 2:02:56.840 --> 2:02:59.480 He determines policy or did if. 2:02:59.360 --> 2:03:03.080 He did, yeah, and and and now it's interesting with him, 2:03:03.320 --> 2:03:07.000 with him leaving his job in this way, it'll be 2:03:07.000 --> 2:03:09.000 interesting to see if how that how that affects any 2:03:09.040 --> 2:03:12.440 kind of potential of prospect for him for him, yeah, 2:03:12.720 --> 2:03:13.640 running for office. 2:03:14.240 --> 2:03:16.640 My big question around all that, and this is kind 2:03:16.640 --> 2:03:20.040 of unanswerable, is like, does Tucker have any appeal outside 2:03:20.120 --> 2:03:22.960 of the right wing base. Three and a half million 2:03:23.320 --> 2:03:25.360 cable news viewers is not evidence of the kind of 2:03:25.400 --> 2:03:27.680 broad based appeal that can draw an independence and win 2:03:27.720 --> 2:03:31.120 an election. And Tucker has never you know, the one 2:03:31.240 --> 2:03:34.480 the closest thing he's been to a political candidate is 2:03:34.520 --> 2:03:36.800 when he went up against John Stewart, and that didn't 2:03:36.840 --> 2:03:39.520 go great for him. No, he and he moved aft 2:03:39.600 --> 2:03:43.200 after John Stewart kind of destroyed his Crossfire career. He 2:03:43.240 --> 2:03:46.840 moved to a situation where he was he had unprecedented 2:03:46.880 --> 2:03:50.000 control over his show. It was almost entirely recorded and 2:03:50.040 --> 2:03:53.320 stuff out of a studio in Maine that he set up. 2:03:54.520 --> 2:03:57.520 He built everything he was doing around being able to 2:03:57.520 --> 2:04:01.240 totally control how he was seen, what was shown, what 2:04:01.320 --> 2:04:04.000 of his was like put out to the public. And 2:04:04.040 --> 2:04:06.960 you simply can't do that as a presidential candidate. You 2:04:06.960 --> 2:04:10.080 have to accept and be able to make work for 2:04:10.160 --> 2:04:13.280 you the fact that every eye is on you and 2:04:13.360 --> 2:04:16.560 you do not have total control over what about you 2:04:16.720 --> 2:04:19.160 is put out and published, among other things. You're going 2:04:19.200 --> 2:04:23.000 to be repeatedly questioned in situations where you can't edit 2:04:23.000 --> 2:04:25.600 the footage or stop things from going out afterwards. And 2:04:25.720 --> 2:04:28.280 I don't know that Tucker has what it takes to 2:04:28.400 --> 2:04:29.959 succeed in that kind of environment. 2:04:32.800 --> 2:04:36.720 Yeah, Enchilade, he fucking never succeeds again and we never 2:04:36.760 --> 2:04:38.080 have to hear about him. 2:04:38.360 --> 2:04:43.200 Yeah, we should shout out this lady kat Abazzale, that 2:04:44.000 --> 2:04:46.640 the person who had to watch Tucker Carlson for years 2:04:46.640 --> 2:04:48.600 and years and years and then explain it to people. 2:04:49.720 --> 2:04:51.760 She works at Media Matters for America. But she is 2:04:51.800 --> 2:04:54.640 taking the biggest victory lap that anyone has ever taken 2:04:54.720 --> 2:04:56.920 right now. And it's kind of glorious. 2:04:56.480 --> 2:04:58.960 To watch doing the lord's work. Truly. 2:04:59.440 --> 2:05:04.600 Yeah, taking on trauma for all of her stuff was 2:05:04.640 --> 2:05:06.760 quite good. Like she she did a good job explaining 2:05:07.200 --> 2:05:09.160 how toxic Tucker was to people who might not have 2:05:09.240 --> 2:05:09.760 been aware of it. 2:05:11.280 --> 2:05:15.320 Yeah. Anyway, in conclusion, Tucker, we would love to have 2:05:15.360 --> 2:05:18.320 you on at Cool Zone. Totally welcome to come host 2:05:18.960 --> 2:05:20.920 your own podcast. We'll bring you on to it could 2:05:20.960 --> 2:05:24.640 happen here. You can do a bastard's guest appearance, jam, 2:05:25.040 --> 2:05:29.800 he can right into the jungle. 2:05:33.000 --> 2:05:33.440 Directly. 2:05:33.960 --> 2:05:38.240 Come on, come on, Tucker. We'd love to have you anyway. 2:05:38.360 --> 2:05:39.880 I think that's I think that's a soode. 2:05:56.360 --> 2:06:00.000 It's been four months since French President Emanuel Macron effect 2:06:00.280 --> 2:06:05.560 declared war on French society. Euphemistically called pension reforms, Macron's 2:06:05.560 --> 2:06:08.480 proposal would increase the retirement age from sixty two to 2:06:08.520 --> 2:06:11.920 sixty four, effectively robbing the working class of two years 2:06:11.960 --> 2:06:15.720 of their lives. In January, French unions filled the streets 2:06:15.720 --> 2:06:19.680 of Paris with trash now French workers build brick and 2:06:19.760 --> 2:06:22.680 mortar barricades on highways and set branches on fire on 2:06:22.760 --> 2:06:29.640 train tracks. Welcome to it could happen here. The escalation 2:06:29.720 --> 2:06:33.400 from protest to uprising is in part a product of 2:06:33.440 --> 2:06:36.839 how Macron forced the retirement age increase through a national 2:06:36.840 --> 2:06:40.480 assembly he no longer controls without the ability to win 2:06:40.520 --> 2:06:45.760 a vote. Macron's Prime Minister, Elizabeth Bourne, suddenly invoked Article 2:06:45.840 --> 2:06:49.200 forty nine of the French Constitution, which allows the ruling 2:06:49.240 --> 2:06:52.680 government to force a bill into law without a vote. 2:06:52.800 --> 2:06:56.440 Macron argues that because circumventing Parliament to force legislation through 2:06:56.560 --> 2:07:02.280 is legal, the move is democratic across France. Disagree. We 2:07:02.360 --> 2:07:06.440 spoke to two French protesters, Mael, a student in Leone, 2:07:06.680 --> 2:07:09.600 and a Gat, a union railway worker at a state 2:07:09.640 --> 2:07:13.280 owned rail company, about the movement. The two met through 2:07:13.280 --> 2:07:16.200 a struggle committee designed to bring people from different backgrounds 2:07:16.200 --> 2:07:20.120 and movements together to fight against mccron's reforms and four, 2:07:20.640 --> 2:07:24.600 as Mael put it, victories for our class. A Gat 2:07:24.640 --> 2:07:27.840 had this to say about Macron's anti democratic sleight of hand. 2:07:28.640 --> 2:07:34.480 What they are using right now is a rhetorical trap 2:07:35.160 --> 2:07:46.800 which consists of confusing democracy and constitutionalism. I don't know 2:07:46.840 --> 2:07:49.880 if I'm using the right word, but for instance, you 2:07:49.960 --> 2:07:55.280 know that they maybe you know that to impose this reform, 2:07:55.320 --> 2:07:59.320 they have been using an article, which this article forty 2:07:59.400 --> 2:08:05.040 nine points three of our constitution and they say that, well, 2:08:05.160 --> 2:08:10.040 this article is in the constitution, we are in a democracy, 2:08:10.160 --> 2:08:15.360 and therefore this article is democratic, which is absolutely false. 2:08:15.560 --> 2:08:21.400 It's a fallacious reasoning. It is not true. It's the 2:08:21.760 --> 2:08:26.320 forty nine point three is an anti constitution. It is 2:08:26.360 --> 2:08:32.680 an anti democratic article of the constitution. And this is 2:08:32.720 --> 2:08:35.680 what they have been trying to do lately, to say 2:08:35.880 --> 2:08:40.120 to make us believe that everything that's been happening is 2:08:40.360 --> 2:08:47.640 absolutely normal and implies with the democratic standards of France, 2:08:48.040 --> 2:08:51.200 which is not true. Also, what they are trying to 2:08:51.240 --> 2:08:56.920 do to disqualify any opposition from the left wing is 2:08:56.960 --> 2:09:01.000 to say that the left wing party is actually an 2:09:01.120 --> 2:09:07.680 extreme left hardly, which it is not. And it's kind 2:09:07.720 --> 2:09:12.720 of they are trying to induce the kind of history 2:09:12.880 --> 2:09:18.320 in all this and to radicalize what is not. What 2:09:18.360 --> 2:09:22.680 we are asking for is simply for them to to 2:09:22.840 --> 2:09:27.200 listen to what we for once can call the people. Generally, 2:09:27.240 --> 2:09:30.400 when you have a protest, it's only a part of 2:09:30.480 --> 2:09:35.680 the population that disagrees with the policy of the government. 2:09:35.720 --> 2:09:41.720 But this time, honestly, uh, there are seven seven people 2:09:41.760 --> 2:09:45.640 out of ten who are who disagree with this and uh, 2:09:45.920 --> 2:09:49.840 nine workers out of ten who disagree with this reform. Honestly, 2:09:50.000 --> 2:09:52.160 I think we can call ourselves the people. 2:09:52.920 --> 2:09:56.800 And in a democracy, well what you do is listen 2:09:56.840 --> 2:10:00.600 to the people, not that representatives and not the members 2:10:00.640 --> 2:10:03.839 of the government, but the people in the fucking streets. 2:10:03.960 --> 2:10:09.440 I'm sorry. Uh. And and because they do not want 2:10:09.520 --> 2:10:13.280 to do that, they try to say that we are 2:10:13.360 --> 2:10:19.040 radicals and that we are supported by radical political parties. 2:10:19.160 --> 2:10:20.520 It's not true. 2:10:20.760 --> 2:10:23.720 Yeah, it's it's very radious situation. 2:10:23.920 --> 2:10:26.600 Yeah, this is what I wanted to say about what 2:10:26.720 --> 2:10:31.040 they're at their current strategy, aside from the repression of 2:10:31.080 --> 2:10:33.160 which we are going to talk in a few minutes, 2:10:33.520 --> 2:10:35.080 this is what their strategy is. 2:10:35.960 --> 2:10:41.640 Yeah, Like basically they confuse all of the forces on 2:10:41.720 --> 2:10:45.560 the left together. They say that Melanchia is funding the 2:10:45.640 --> 2:10:52.120 black Block, you know, so it's things like that, the 2:10:52.200 --> 2:10:57.480 CGTS and a fee, all of them, it's on the 2:10:57.560 --> 2:11:02.400 same and they all want the destruction of civilization. And 2:11:03.080 --> 2:11:06.360 I don't know that's the discourse on the far right. 2:11:07.360 --> 2:11:12.200 Yeah, babies, Yeah, that sounds like you're American, right too. 2:11:14.360 --> 2:11:17.480 Yeah, and this is kind of linked to police violence, 2:11:18.000 --> 2:11:21.080 this discourse when you were talking about how they're saying 2:11:21.120 --> 2:11:24.760 that the constitution is democratic and there's nothing you can 2:11:24.840 --> 2:11:31.320 say even though well, the point of the constitution is 2:11:31.360 --> 2:11:37.680 to bypass the parliament. I don't know that democratic. But yeah, 2:11:37.800 --> 2:11:41.240 So when it comes to police violence as a reaction 2:11:41.440 --> 2:11:45.919 is to say that the state holds the legitimate monopoly 2:11:46.000 --> 2:11:50.600 of violence, so therefore they can repress us however they want. 2:11:51.560 --> 2:11:55.320 That's literally what they're saying right now, which is kind 2:11:55.360 --> 2:11:56.280 of worrying. 2:11:57.000 --> 2:12:00.000 The French police have been incredibly violent in their campaign 2:12:00.040 --> 2:12:03.520 to suppress the protests. At an ecological action in San 2:12:03.600 --> 2:12:06.800 Seline on March twenty fifth, tens of thousands of activists 2:12:06.840 --> 2:12:10.760 were met with helicopters, armored vehicles, and six thousand grenades, 2:12:11.360 --> 2:12:14.280 many of which were the French police's new and incredibly 2:12:14.360 --> 2:12:19.200 dangerous military grade GM two l cs gas grenades. One 2:12:19.240 --> 2:12:21.360 protester was shot in the head with a tear gas 2:12:21.400 --> 2:12:24.520 grenade fired by a grenade launcher mounted on an armored vehicle. 2:12:25.200 --> 2:12:27.760 He remained in a coma fighting for his life for 2:12:27.800 --> 2:12:31.879 an entire month. Earlier today, his parents' release a statement 2:12:31.960 --> 2:12:34.680 saying that he has begun to wake up, but is 2:12:34.720 --> 2:12:38.960 not fully conscious and his life remains in danger. The 2:12:39.040 --> 2:12:42.680 day before, a special police motorcycle unit called Brav M, 2:12:43.040 --> 2:12:46.040 created in twenty nineteen to suppress the Genejean with the 2:12:46.120 --> 2:12:49.440 yellow vest protests, was recorded threatening a group of random 2:12:49.440 --> 2:12:51.360 people that had arrested for sitting in front of a 2:12:51.360 --> 2:12:55.320 building from The Washington Post. The cop says, quote, You're 2:12:55.400 --> 2:12:57.760 lucky to be sitting there, and now that we've arrested you, 2:12:58.160 --> 2:13:01.360 I swear I'd have broken your leg literally. I can 2:13:01.400 --> 2:13:04.040 tell you We've broken elbows and faces, but you I'd 2:13:04.040 --> 2:13:06.440 have broken your legs, one officer says. In the recording. 2:13:06.560 --> 2:13:11.040 Limone reported two slapping sounds can be heard, the report says, 2:13:11.120 --> 2:13:14.000 along with an officer saying, wipe that smile off your face. 2:13:14.720 --> 2:13:17.280 Later in the clip, a police officer warns the young 2:13:17.320 --> 2:13:20.200 people they have detained. Quote, next time we come, you 2:13:20.240 --> 2:13:21.840 won't be getting in the car to go to the 2:13:21.840 --> 2:13:24.360 police station. You'll be getting in another thing called an 2:13:24.400 --> 2:13:28.760 ambulance to go to the hospital. Paris Police chief Laurette 2:13:28.800 --> 2:13:32.320 Nuez said on Friday he was quote very shocked by 2:13:32.360 --> 2:13:35.760 the audio clip Mayel and a gat We're less shocked. 2:13:36.360 --> 2:13:43.560 This is not really a surprise, unfortunately, because well, our 2:13:44.160 --> 2:13:51.200 lease is not as h I don't know, it's problematic, 2:13:51.240 --> 2:13:53.960 but maybe not as problematic as in the US. I'm 2:13:54.000 --> 2:13:58.240 sorry if I'm wrong about that. But we also follow 2:13:58.360 --> 2:14:02.879 sometimes what happens on the other side of the ocean. 2:14:03.000 --> 2:14:08.040 And uh, but I must say that we we have 2:14:08.280 --> 2:14:16.200 had issues of police murders on the street like and 2:14:16.360 --> 2:14:24.000 police violence, wanting violence, and unfortunately that now it's not 2:14:24.200 --> 2:14:29.760 new and there is a newspaper media parts who managed 2:14:29.800 --> 2:14:36.680 to to find a excerpt of I think it's a 2:14:36.920 --> 2:14:43.920 group on WhatsApp or whatever of policemen talking about race, 2:14:44.000 --> 2:14:47.360 war and uh and all these kinds of things. And 2:14:48.360 --> 2:14:52.680 unfortunately we know that there are such people in our police. 2:14:53.160 --> 2:14:57.120 So so police are there's a kind of basically fascists, 2:14:57.280 --> 2:15:02.360 all of them. Like they have like one of their 2:15:02.480 --> 2:15:07.560 unions which called Alliance and for the politics for the 2:15:07.680 --> 2:15:13.080 presidential elections, they invited the right wing party, who are 2:15:13.520 --> 2:15:18.800 basically only people who talg with all about genocide. And 2:15:18.840 --> 2:15:26.080 then the classic marine Lapin and the more the far 2:15:26.240 --> 2:15:33.400 right who's openly calling for a civilizational war with Muslims. 2:15:34.400 --> 2:15:39.440 So that's the police unions. And for a little bit 2:15:39.520 --> 2:15:44.480 of history on the police, we have, for example, one 2:15:44.520 --> 2:15:48.640 of the very violent units that you see arresting people 2:15:48.760 --> 2:15:54.240 all over friends, which are called brigadotic Huminality or back 2:15:54.520 --> 2:16:01.160 for fort. And these people come from some sort of 2:16:01.640 --> 2:16:10.480 colonial units who were in Algeria during the war and 2:16:10.520 --> 2:16:20.000 when there was a need to repress populations who previously 2:16:20.040 --> 2:16:24.560 lived in colonies and then moved to France to the 2:16:24.600 --> 2:16:29.440 main country, they created a lot of very violent units 2:16:29.640 --> 2:16:33.320 and recruited through people who were in the Algerian War 2:16:34.080 --> 2:16:39.160 to basically break down people's house things like this, beat 2:16:39.200 --> 2:16:39.680 them up. 2:16:40.080 --> 2:16:40.360 You know. 2:16:41.760 --> 2:16:46.320 It was really colonial practices and all of this kind 2:16:46.360 --> 2:16:54.720 of state with the repression of poor and non white 2:16:54.920 --> 2:16:58.840 areas of town where they tried to always have a 2:16:58.920 --> 2:17:03.560 strong police presents and catch people. They say in the act, 2:17:03.760 --> 2:17:08.320 but they're really making up reasons to arrest people. Police 2:17:08.400 --> 2:17:12.119 violence is not new at all, And yeah, basically it's 2:17:12.120 --> 2:17:16.720 easier need to train all year long against poor, non 2:17:16.760 --> 2:17:24.600 white people, and then during protests they come against people 2:17:24.720 --> 2:17:31.279 who have come to protests which are generally different people, 2:17:31.600 --> 2:17:34.000 but not entirely different people. 2:17:34.120 --> 2:17:38.560 Of course, the police response to protests, again says, has 2:17:38.600 --> 2:17:42.040 gotten more violence as the Jiljan protests in twenty nineteen, 2:17:42.760 --> 2:17:45.200 but instead of clearing the streets as Macron had hoped, 2:17:45.560 --> 2:17:48.640 the increase in violence is just narrowing the traditional gap 2:17:48.680 --> 2:17:51.600 between more moderate trade union protesters and the more radical 2:17:51.640 --> 2:17:53.199 protesters found in black blocks. 2:17:53.560 --> 2:17:54.760 I've seen people. 2:17:55.920 --> 2:17:58.760 In America in England saying that the movement is dying 2:17:58.840 --> 2:18:02.800 down because the inter union protests are more and more 2:18:03.560 --> 2:18:06.920 away from each other. But in the actual protest people 2:18:07.000 --> 2:18:11.440 are much much more radical. And what happens is that 2:18:11.560 --> 2:18:14.040 the people who are in the front of the protests 2:18:14.520 --> 2:18:18.840 before the union and who may potentially fight with the 2:18:18.959 --> 2:18:23.600 cops that the union will never do, they're more and 2:18:23.640 --> 2:18:29.880 more numerous, like four times bigger than the protests months ago, 2:18:30.280 --> 2:18:33.560 and so the cops cannot charge us. Every time they charge, 2:18:33.600 --> 2:18:36.840 people get around them, and there are rocks which happen 2:18:36.959 --> 2:18:37.840 to hit their heads. 2:18:37.879 --> 2:18:41.120 I don't know how, yeah, cry. I ask about that 2:18:41.160 --> 2:18:43.640 a bit, specifically about the dynamic of there being a 2:18:43.680 --> 2:18:47.080 sort of I don't know, I kind of divide between 2:18:47.600 --> 2:18:49.920 the sort of more biltant people who are fighting the 2:18:49.959 --> 2:18:54.400 cops and the sort of more moderate like trade union 2:18:55.080 --> 2:18:58.600 like protesters. I wanted to ask, I guess, like how 2:18:58.840 --> 2:19:02.600 firm has that separation been and what I guess have 2:19:02.760 --> 2:19:08.120 the unions been doing here? Have they been trying to 2:19:08.160 --> 2:19:10.240 contain things? Have they been trying to push forward? 2:19:12.160 --> 2:19:18.200 Well? Yes, I think it's a very some phenomenon kind 2:19:18.240 --> 2:19:22.200 of especially the way it's taken from now, because it's 2:19:22.240 --> 2:19:27.200 basically a mix of a black block and some Dill 2:19:27.360 --> 2:19:34.519 June and some random already called people, yeah, yellow vests. 2:19:34.879 --> 2:19:40.400 But so the black block it started really in twenty sixteen. 2:19:40.440 --> 2:19:43.240 Before this, there was no real black block all the 2:19:43.280 --> 2:19:47.280 time at protests, And the attitude of the unions is 2:19:47.320 --> 2:19:50.240 that they hate the black block. It's pretty simple. I mean, 2:19:50.280 --> 2:19:56.320 not of course, as everyone who's in a union, but 2:19:57.160 --> 2:20:00.760 the unions who organize the protest, they don't want anyone 2:20:00.800 --> 2:20:03.920 in front of them. They want people to go behind 2:20:04.000 --> 2:20:09.640 them and follow whatever they want to do. So they've 2:20:09.680 --> 2:20:14.640 been really aggressive. But even if there are conflicts right now, 2:20:14.760 --> 2:20:17.800 I would say the fact that the people in front 2:20:17.840 --> 2:20:21.879 of the union are more and more numerous, I think 2:20:21.920 --> 2:20:25.440 there's somewhat less tensions the unions. I don't think they 2:20:25.480 --> 2:20:30.760 feel like they can really push against even the black 2:20:30.800 --> 2:20:33.960 bloc or radicals who break stuff. 2:20:34.560 --> 2:20:40.760 If I may add in something, Indeed, there is a 2:20:40.840 --> 2:20:47.960 difference between the attitude of the union directions, let's say, 2:20:49.080 --> 2:20:57.520 and people like me, the simple unionized workers. And what 2:20:57.640 --> 2:21:03.960 Miles said is absolutely true about the the hate, the Yeah, 2:21:04.120 --> 2:21:08.520 they really don't want any black blocks, especially in front 2:21:08.560 --> 2:21:14.000 of them. But what I observed in these over the 2:21:14.080 --> 2:21:18.840 last few demonstrations is that what we call the cortege, 2:21:19.400 --> 2:21:25.720 which is really the very head of the demonstration, even 2:21:25.800 --> 2:21:35.960 in front of the unions, the official union group, where 2:21:36.040 --> 2:21:39.720 there are the black blocks and the yellow vests, there 2:21:39.760 --> 2:21:42.800 are more and more people I was I was like, 2:21:43.040 --> 2:21:44.840 I was going to say, like me, but I'm a 2:21:44.840 --> 2:21:48.920 bit of a still a bit cowardly, and I'm still 2:21:48.959 --> 2:21:54.640 afraid of of getting in this kind of place. But 2:21:55.480 --> 2:22:01.120 there are more and more unionized workers who mingle with 2:22:01.240 --> 2:22:07.080 the black blogs and et cetera. And I you know, 2:22:07.360 --> 2:22:12.440 we also have what we call manifestations sauvage the wild 2:22:12.600 --> 2:22:20.080 and and not organized protests that are not organized by 2:22:20.160 --> 2:22:23.280 unions but are kind of spontaneous. 2:22:23.200 --> 2:22:29.400 They opened after Macro forced the reform through Parliament without 2:22:29.400 --> 2:22:32.920 a vote, and people just went in the streets without 2:22:32.959 --> 2:22:38.200 the union and they burned. There were images in Paris 2:22:38.240 --> 2:22:41.720 of everything burning. It was that day, and that's what 2:22:41.800 --> 2:22:43.600 we call a wild protests. 2:22:44.160 --> 2:22:52.640 Yeah, and for the first time I saw unionized workers 2:22:52.800 --> 2:22:57.680 joining in. That is crazy because they were feeling that 2:22:57.879 --> 2:23:04.480 what the unions were proposing within the legal and pacifists 2:23:04.520 --> 2:23:11.240 and nice frame was not enough because really our president 2:23:11.360 --> 2:23:17.160 was really just making fun of us and we couldn't 2:23:17.160 --> 2:23:21.280 have it, and what we usually do was not longer 2:23:22.000 --> 2:23:26.160 enough for us. And this is really something new. 2:23:27.240 --> 2:23:29.440 I asked about the appearance of the Chile Jean in 2:23:29.480 --> 2:23:32.640 the current protest and what you thought of them, Mael. 2:23:32.879 --> 2:23:36.280 The student was somewhat dismissive, but the impact that Chile 2:23:36.400 --> 2:23:38.840 Jean had on a GAT and the railway workers was 2:23:38.959 --> 2:23:39.480 very different. 2:23:40.360 --> 2:23:44.320 Yeah, I can say a little bit, but I don't 2:23:44.360 --> 2:23:50.280 know much about the yellow vests. For what I saw 2:23:50.360 --> 2:23:54.360 of the Yellow vests were a lot of blockages and 2:23:54.480 --> 2:24:02.360 people against taxes on gas, and it radicalized was towards 2:24:03.560 --> 2:24:09.400 some form of radical democracy, but maybe not so radical 2:24:09.560 --> 2:24:15.360 because they wanted the mass movement seemed to end on 2:24:15.440 --> 2:24:20.600 the demand for referendums. Basically, they wanted to be able 2:24:20.680 --> 2:24:26.240 to call their own referendums, and the demands were not 2:24:26.879 --> 2:24:32.040 directly linked to economics. And as I saw them many 2:24:32.280 --> 2:24:37.800 very often, and when we saw them in protests in Lyon, 2:24:40.120 --> 2:24:45.840 they were kind of weird. But I don't know them 2:24:46.200 --> 2:24:50.119 very well. What I saw was that the government repressed 2:24:50.120 --> 2:24:54.040 them really, really hard, much harder than the usual protests 2:24:54.040 --> 2:24:56.199 that we do, because they were really scared of them. 2:24:56.840 --> 2:25:00.520 Yeah, because I took part to the Yellow lest movement 2:25:01.560 --> 2:25:06.000 and I tend to disagree a bit with your analysis 2:25:06.040 --> 2:25:10.800 on this problem. No, no, no, no, it's just a I'm 2:25:10.840 --> 2:25:14.199 just saying and it's not an attack at all. At first, 2:25:14.600 --> 2:25:19.039 I must say I hated this movement because well, just 2:25:19.959 --> 2:25:24.200 long story short, it began in twenty eighteen, and in 2:25:24.240 --> 2:25:29.800 twenty eighteen there was a big movement in the SENCF 2:25:29.840 --> 2:25:35.600 where I work in the Railway Public Company because the 2:25:36.120 --> 2:25:39.199 current it's very funny because it's the current Prime Minister 2:25:39.360 --> 2:25:42.720 who was the Transport Minister at the time. 2:25:45.280 --> 2:25:46.480 They just moved them around. 2:25:47.360 --> 2:25:52.800 We keep seeing this. It's absolutely I can't stand that anyway. 2:25:53.520 --> 2:25:59.119 I have a personal vendetta with this woman, and we 2:25:59.240 --> 2:26:05.560 had been fed trying to fight off the well, they 2:26:05.720 --> 2:26:09.160 kind of started to kill off our company. It's only 2:26:09.280 --> 2:26:13.240 now dying of its slow death. But this is where 2:26:13.280 --> 2:26:16.640 it really well, this is where the end really began 2:26:16.760 --> 2:26:18.640 in twenty eighteen for us. 2:26:18.920 --> 2:26:21.360 You mean by privatization, they're killing the contents. 2:26:21.480 --> 2:26:25.640 Yeah, we are not private yet, but the door has 2:26:25.720 --> 2:26:32.280 been opened on that idea. And so it's been a 2:26:32.320 --> 2:26:38.560 really really hard protest for us, and we in the 2:26:38.680 --> 2:26:45.200 end we lost. It was really hard, and after that 2:26:45.760 --> 2:26:50.480 we've been I've seen these people the yellow vest stand 2:26:50.640 --> 2:26:56.199 up and take on our songs to make them their own. 2:26:57.080 --> 2:27:01.440 The famous only lap. It started with in the railway world, 2:27:02.080 --> 2:27:06.320 and it really started in Lyons. I was there and 2:27:06.959 --> 2:27:10.640 suddenly these people whom I did not see by our 2:27:10.920 --> 2:27:15.680 side a few months before, started to invade the streets 2:27:15.720 --> 2:27:20.800 and sing our songs. I was really outraged. I was furious, 2:27:20.879 --> 2:27:27.199 and then I fortunately I spent time with the people 2:27:27.280 --> 2:27:32.520 who are more intelligent than me and who said that 2:27:32.640 --> 2:27:36.680 it was worth going to see these people and see 2:27:36.840 --> 2:27:40.000 what was on their minds and what they were thinking, 2:27:40.320 --> 2:27:44.600 especially because there were people who had never before protested. 2:27:44.760 --> 2:27:47.840 They had never been on the street to demonstrate about anything, 2:27:48.680 --> 2:27:53.920 and they were right to do that. And it all 2:27:53.959 --> 2:27:57.959 started with the price of oil and of gasolina. And 2:27:58.080 --> 2:28:07.040 I found that really really insignificant, and in fact it 2:28:07.400 --> 2:28:10.480 really opened my mind about the reality of other people, 2:28:10.520 --> 2:28:13.200 because I do not have a car, but some people 2:28:13.280 --> 2:28:16.720 have a car, and they needed to live together, to 2:28:16.760 --> 2:28:21.320 make a live in And not only that, but the 2:28:21.360 --> 2:28:25.880 motives of the protest. They roaded and roaded these people. 2:28:26.600 --> 2:28:33.760 They got politicized at such a speed, a high speed. 2:28:33.760 --> 2:28:41.760 This is incredible because quite rapidly what they were demanding 2:28:42.320 --> 2:28:46.039 was not simply the lowering of the oil price. It 2:28:46.200 --> 2:28:50.480 was also more democracy, it was more social justice. It 2:28:50.560 --> 2:28:58.080 was against the cancelation of attacks, unfortune, of the great 2:28:58.120 --> 2:29:03.000 fortune of people, on break wealth, and and on climate. 2:29:03.240 --> 2:29:07.679 Also it merged with the with a lot of climate demonstrations, 2:29:07.720 --> 2:29:11.080 and it broad it really it was about really a 2:29:11.080 --> 2:29:16.160 social model and what world we want to live in tomorrow. 2:29:16.840 --> 2:29:20.920 And so this is why I say this, This movement 2:29:21.080 --> 2:29:24.560 was really incredible. It was also incredible because it was 2:29:24.600 --> 2:29:28.359 taking place without the unions. It depends on the regions. 2:29:28.400 --> 2:29:32.200 In France. In Lyons, for example, there there is no 2:29:32.400 --> 2:29:36.520 love lost between the Yellow Vest and the unions, the 2:29:36.600 --> 2:29:39.840 direction of the unions. But in other regions, like in 2:29:39.920 --> 2:29:44.560 southern France or in the north, it's very different. And 2:29:44.920 --> 2:29:49.360 soon they began to protest together and the Yellow Vest 2:29:49.480 --> 2:29:55.200 they they they gave us a new a fresh new breath. 2:29:55.640 --> 2:30:00.520 It was really a fresher breath of fresh air. There 2:30:00.640 --> 2:30:07.720 was such spontaneous, they were so spontaneous and so angry. Also, 2:30:07.959 --> 2:30:11.160 you know, they remind they reminded us what it was 2:30:11.200 --> 2:30:13.959 to be angry and to have the right to be 2:30:14.080 --> 2:30:20.640 angry and not to be helpless in front of an 2:30:20.720 --> 2:30:28.360 unjust policy. And it really changed changes. And as just 2:30:28.480 --> 2:30:32.600 like I said that earlier that in this very movement, 2:30:33.000 --> 2:30:36.840 the movement we live in now, there are there are 2:30:37.160 --> 2:30:40.320 unionized workers who mingle with the black dog for example, 2:30:40.680 --> 2:30:43.640 well there were a lot of us unionized workers in 2:30:43.720 --> 2:30:51.600 the Yellow vese two and so yeah, it influenced us 2:30:51.680 --> 2:30:52.080 a lot. 2:30:52.760 --> 2:30:56.440 I think we can say that if twenty sixteen and 2:30:56.520 --> 2:31:00.280 that's a black block to the protests. Now with the 2:31:00.360 --> 2:31:03.520 Yellow Vest, it changed completely the way we protest as well. 2:31:04.320 --> 2:31:10.440 All the blockages are like much more regular and the 2:31:10.520 --> 2:31:14.640 way we're people fear less, you know, to demand things 2:31:14.680 --> 2:31:19.360 and to organize without unions. I think we can say 2:31:19.400 --> 2:31:25.920 that it definitely changed things. Also personally, I think that 2:31:26.360 --> 2:31:30.039 if I say wrong things about the yellow vests, why 2:31:30.040 --> 2:31:35.040 I don't know the importug is because yes, the concerns 2:31:35.040 --> 2:31:40.920 about oil gas price was not what of Pine because 2:31:40.920 --> 2:31:42.840 I live in the city and I don't have a car, 2:31:45.480 --> 2:31:51.240 So I think it affected more the country, the countryside 2:31:51.320 --> 2:31:55.120 of friends, which is more concerned with gas prices, yeah, 2:31:56.080 --> 2:32:02.680 than big cities. Also because we already have have lots 2:32:02.680 --> 2:32:10.560 of political movements here, so like it's it's kinven different. 2:32:10.879 --> 2:32:11.200 I don't know. 2:32:11.520 --> 2:32:14.080 I don't know this sport very well, to be honest, 2:32:14.480 --> 2:32:15.680 maybe I should just show up. 2:32:17.920 --> 2:32:20.280 No, I mean, it's it's interesting to me because I 2:32:20.320 --> 2:32:25.000 remember when the uh the g le John's protests started up, 2:32:25.440 --> 2:32:27.959 there was a lot of debate outside of France and 2:32:28.080 --> 2:32:32.520 kind of like Westerners observing the protests to are these 2:32:32.560 --> 2:32:35.560 guys is this something that's like a positive movement? Are 2:32:35.560 --> 2:32:40.760 they all right wing? And it's interesting that the way 2:32:40.800 --> 2:32:43.160 in which kind of all of these different sort of 2:32:43.280 --> 2:32:48.920 eras of protest movements in France have melded together for 2:32:48.959 --> 2:32:52.280 this this most recent kind of uprising like you've got 2:32:52.440 --> 2:32:55.680 you know, the the the You've got these trade unions, 2:32:55.720 --> 2:32:58.880 you've got le Jon's, you've got the Black Bloc, all 2:32:58.959 --> 2:33:05.760 sort of working as different pieces of this uprising, you know, 2:33:05.840 --> 2:33:08.160 based on kind of the different tactics of their eras. 2:33:08.160 --> 2:33:09.200 That's fascinating to me. 2:33:09.520 --> 2:33:14.920 I was discussing and saying that it's kind of a 2:33:14.959 --> 2:33:20.720 feature of movements about pensions, even if they can be 2:33:20.920 --> 2:33:24.000 very different, that they tend to attract a lot of people. 2:33:24.480 --> 2:33:27.400 And at first the protests were not very radical at 2:33:27.440 --> 2:33:32.400 all compared to protests we could have with similar sizes. 2:33:34.040 --> 2:33:38.680 But gradually the movement is radicalizing a lot, it seems 2:33:38.720 --> 2:33:44.080 to me, the people who are in it, and the 2:33:44.160 --> 2:33:47.880 fact that it tends to mobilize everyone at first, even 2:33:47.959 --> 2:33:51.560 if it's not very radical, when it created this sort 2:33:51.560 --> 2:33:55.560 of mingling of everybody, the Yellow ass the Union, the 2:33:55.640 --> 2:34:01.360 Black Block, everybody except the political party there useless books. 2:34:02.680 --> 2:34:06.200 Alongside the radicalization of protesters from all walks of life 2:34:06.240 --> 2:34:10.160 inside France, there's been a surprisingly strong international reaction from 2:34:10.200 --> 2:34:12.240 other European workers and activists. 2:34:12.760 --> 2:34:16.240 You know, I'm wondering, you know, during the Black Lives 2:34:16.280 --> 2:34:20.359 Matter protests in the US and twenty twenty. International attention 2:34:20.920 --> 2:34:24.480 was significant, and it was to some extent useful in 2:34:24.560 --> 2:34:27.199 terms of helping to raise money and stuff for different 2:34:27.200 --> 2:34:30.039 bail funds. People from all around the world helped to 2:34:30.080 --> 2:34:33.879 that extent. But I'm wondering is the is the degree 2:34:33.920 --> 2:34:38.240 of international attention by other countries left wings, you know, 2:34:38.360 --> 2:34:42.120 movements on what's happening in France right now. Is it 2:34:42.200 --> 2:34:45.360 having an impact directly or is it just sort of 2:34:45.440 --> 2:34:47.039 like noise. 2:34:48.240 --> 2:34:53.040 Well on my port, it seems to be a lot 2:34:53.080 --> 2:34:57.040 of noise, yes, because a lot of people seem to 2:34:57.160 --> 2:35:03.959 misunderstand completely the situation. And yeah, they just give their 2:35:04.000 --> 2:35:10.359 opinion and that's fine, I guess. But I think there 2:35:10.360 --> 2:35:16.520 may be actual solidarity with some militants. I mean, I 2:35:16.600 --> 2:35:20.920 know among anarchists that there are an archists who come 2:35:21.000 --> 2:35:27.440 from Italy, Switzerland, Germany and other countries who try to 2:35:27.480 --> 2:35:32.080 help actions and protests. And I'm pretty sure that among 2:35:32.200 --> 2:35:38.120 unions there is international solidarity as well. But maybe I 2:35:38.160 --> 2:35:39.840 got you U should say something about this. 2:35:40.520 --> 2:35:44.680 Yes, there is international solidarity. Honestly, this is not something 2:35:44.760 --> 2:35:50.760 I was expecting. But for instance, last week in Belgium, 2:35:51.080 --> 2:35:58.959 there are workers from a total plant that actually blocked 2:35:59.800 --> 2:36:06.800 the freaking port and to prevent them from sending product 2:36:07.440 --> 2:36:12.000 to substitute it from to the product that was blocked 2:36:12.040 --> 2:36:17.720 by protesters in France. And that was this is for me, 2:36:17.800 --> 2:36:23.120 This is absolutely wonderful and yes, so yes, there there 2:36:23.200 --> 2:36:31.080 are international solidarities. We have been in our inter professional assembly, 2:36:31.200 --> 2:36:35.560 because we have a local inter professional assembly, and we 2:36:35.680 --> 2:36:43.000 have been expressing our gratitude to the people in Greece, 2:36:43.200 --> 2:36:51.359 in Argentina, in Spain, in Germany who expressed their support 2:36:51.600 --> 2:36:57.520 openly and personally. I was really surprised to see how 2:36:57.640 --> 2:37:03.080 many people actually were being attention to what was happening 2:37:03.120 --> 2:37:08.320 in our country. And it gives us, well, it gave 2:37:08.480 --> 2:37:14.640 strength to many people, and it also gives hope because 2:37:15.040 --> 2:37:22.080 I realized that, well, you know, the main leverage we 2:37:22.200 --> 2:37:27.240 have on our liliticians is the economical beverage. And so 2:37:27.440 --> 2:37:31.520 when when the bosses of big companies and investors and 2:37:31.600 --> 2:37:38.760 everything start to say, well, guy, your reform of pensions 2:37:38.760 --> 2:37:43.080 in France is starting to make a mess in Germany, 2:37:43.600 --> 2:37:48.760 in Spain, in Greece, please stop your madness, Well this 2:37:48.879 --> 2:37:53.080 is a leverage I was not expecting. We are trying 2:37:53.160 --> 2:38:00.320 to use the leverage of the big wealth and UH 2:37:59.440 --> 2:38:03.360 and the big companies in France, which is already something 2:38:03.400 --> 2:38:07.960 quite hard to move, and that was really an unexpected 2:38:08.440 --> 2:38:14.160 support and we really hope that it's going to have 2:38:15.240 --> 2:38:21.760 because Macaron is very He's a narcissistic guy and he 2:38:21.840 --> 2:38:25.800 loves his own image. So if his image is starting 2:38:25.879 --> 2:38:31.200 to suffer internationally, I think this is going to be 2:38:31.280 --> 2:38:36.200 a big problem for him, and his image at the 2:38:36.320 --> 2:38:38.560 time is really a catastrophe. 2:38:39.240 --> 2:38:41.800 Belgium, of course, is not the only place for blockades 2:38:41.800 --> 2:38:44.560 are happening. They've become a staple of the uprising in 2:38:44.600 --> 2:38:45.400 France as well. 2:38:46.040 --> 2:38:51.360 I'm very interesting talking about the blockages of the highways 2:38:51.520 --> 2:38:59.039 around the Bond because many cities are trying to do this. 2:38:59.360 --> 2:39:03.240 There is a which is in Brotain which manages to 2:39:03.440 --> 2:39:10.400 block the highways very often, and so they started in 2:39:10.520 --> 2:39:14.039 Lyon and we tried once a few weeks ago. It 2:39:14.200 --> 2:39:19.200 was a call by the unions with a few points 2:39:19.200 --> 2:39:23.560 to block in the morning and people then militants from 2:39:24.040 --> 2:39:27.000 all over join the points at like six am or 2:39:27.040 --> 2:39:30.760 seven am, I don't remember. But when people arrived there 2:39:30.760 --> 2:39:36.119 were cups everywhere and they were pushed away and circulation 2:39:36.480 --> 2:39:40.879 and capitalism could work normally and everything was fine. So 2:39:41.200 --> 2:39:47.160 we were very frustrated. So reorganized completely and through the 2:39:47.200 --> 2:39:53.879 Struggle Committee, we assembled people from general assemblies all over 2:39:54.000 --> 2:39:59.520 the city and also various groups, and we managed to 2:39:59.640 --> 2:40:06.560 organize is a blockade last Thursday and it worked pretty well. 2:40:07.560 --> 2:40:10.959 It was not exceptional, but for first trip. People were 2:40:11.360 --> 2:40:16.039 very happy about it, and it led to many people 2:40:16.240 --> 2:40:19.920 from all over in the movement working together on a 2:40:20.000 --> 2:40:26.920 project and meeting together in assembly and then being together 2:40:27.040 --> 2:40:31.959 on blockages. And I think it's moments like this which 2:40:32.040 --> 2:40:37.640 are very important for the movement to develop. I'm not 2:40:37.640 --> 2:40:41.600 sure if the blockage in itself is the most interesting 2:40:41.720 --> 2:40:46.000 action in terms of economic damage, especially if we don't 2:40:46.040 --> 2:40:51.720 stay very long, but the different social relations it can create, 2:40:52.600 --> 2:40:55.200 and I think it can have a lot of influence 2:40:55.200 --> 2:41:04.000 in the movement, especially when we're thinking about the unions 2:41:04.480 --> 2:41:09.440 and sort of leaders of the unions who don't want 2:41:09.480 --> 2:41:13.200 to mobilize too much, we don't want to go too far. 2:41:14.320 --> 2:41:17.760 What can we do outside of that. Well, I think 2:41:17.800 --> 2:41:21.080 that's part of the answer, at least. 2:41:20.680 --> 2:41:21.400 I agree. 2:41:21.879 --> 2:41:23.680 Yeah, I think I think that's something that was interesting 2:41:23.720 --> 2:41:27.680 to me because I think the roadblocks and barricades like 2:41:27.720 --> 2:41:29.959 that as a sort of social site is like a 2:41:30.040 --> 2:41:34.840 really it's a thing you see a lot in the past, 2:41:34.959 --> 2:41:38.560 like twenty twenty five years of protest movements like I. 2:41:39.200 --> 2:41:42.440 This was a big deal in I like Hawk in 2:41:42.480 --> 2:41:44.920 twosand and six. There's a lot of similar stuff in 2:41:44.959 --> 2:41:48.920 Tehran during the uprising there. It's interesting to see it 2:41:48.959 --> 2:41:52.560 sort of like re entering the repertoire of stuff. 2:41:53.080 --> 2:41:58.199 Yeah, the kind of the different species of social interactions 2:41:58.200 --> 2:42:01.560 that are made possible by these kind of zones of 2:42:01.640 --> 2:42:03.119 autonomy that are creating. 2:42:04.120 --> 2:42:07.920 And they ask a lot of new questions for militants, 2:42:08.440 --> 2:42:13.840 how to hold a barricade against scarps and against cars. 2:42:14.520 --> 2:42:18.440 It's a lot of different questions which I think they 2:42:18.440 --> 2:42:23.800 can radicalize people. At least two demand more things, so 2:42:24.440 --> 2:42:27.760 it's not clear what they want to demand for now. Yeah, 2:42:27.840 --> 2:42:30.080 I just wanted to say that I'm really really happy 2:42:30.160 --> 2:42:34.760 to see people from different parts of society really coming 2:42:34.800 --> 2:42:40.560 together and accepting to work together, like so many things impossible. 2:42:40.680 --> 2:42:45.560 Now as a student, I've met basically Lisians from all 2:42:45.680 --> 2:42:49.320 universities in my town. I now have free access to 2:42:49.400 --> 2:42:53.240 all publications in French and I'll never pay for anything 2:42:55.400 --> 2:42:59.120 it's really really great in terms of blockage. There is 2:42:59.720 --> 2:43:05.560 just south of Leon there is an oil refinery which 2:43:05.600 --> 2:43:09.959 is not on strike. It's among the only ones. So 2:43:12.240 --> 2:43:18.199 it's really important because in France there's a special system 2:43:18.360 --> 2:43:21.720 because they wanted to stay independent from old producers, so 2:43:21.760 --> 2:43:25.000 they import the oil and then they refine it in France. 2:43:25.680 --> 2:43:28.360 So basically, if we stop all the refinery, there is 2:43:28.440 --> 2:43:32.520 no more gas for cars. And right down it's becoming 2:43:32.520 --> 2:43:36.879 a real problem because of the strikes, and this one 2:43:36.920 --> 2:43:39.520 stays open, and so people have started to try and 2:43:39.600 --> 2:43:44.800 block the entry. So right now there's like something like 2:43:44.920 --> 2:43:52.080 fifty union workers and like fifty radical militants who come 2:43:52.160 --> 2:43:55.920 there every morning. Well not this week, but last week 2:43:55.959 --> 2:44:00.160 they were doing it because this week we haven't said, 2:44:00.200 --> 2:44:05.000 but everyone is on holiday kind of somewhat. The students 2:44:05.000 --> 2:44:10.480 are on holiday, so many people take their paid leave 2:44:11.640 --> 2:44:15.240 right now as well. It's kind of a special time. 2:44:17.320 --> 2:44:20.960 But next week probably the blockages are going to start again. 2:44:21.200 --> 2:44:25.960 And it's great to see union workers meeting with more 2:44:26.040 --> 2:44:32.959 radical people to try and get an action together. And 2:44:33.000 --> 2:44:36.160 I think when there is story diarity exists, great things 2:44:36.160 --> 2:44:36.680 can happen. 2:44:37.440 --> 2:44:43.000 If I may add something about mockages and everything. What 2:44:43.280 --> 2:44:50.840 works pretty well and it's quite satisfying. There are big 2:44:50.959 --> 2:44:57.640 days of mobilization, and what has happened several times now 2:44:57.840 --> 2:45:01.680 is that on the very same day, very same time, 2:45:02.360 --> 2:45:09.080 there are several appointments a little everywhere in the in 2:45:09.120 --> 2:45:12.920 the town and to block something, to block a highway, 2:45:13.000 --> 2:45:17.080 to block a factory, to block a school or whatever. 2:45:17.680 --> 2:45:24.400 And this allows, uh, it allows us to dispatch and 2:45:25.040 --> 2:45:29.480 stretch the forces of the police, and so they are 2:45:29.560 --> 2:45:35.560 never enough everywhere to to to stop us. And that 2:45:35.680 --> 2:45:38.560 makes that can make that can make the day a 2:45:38.640 --> 2:45:42.120 real success because you have a lot of things happening 2:45:42.200 --> 2:45:45.320 at the very same time, but there is only so 2:45:45.480 --> 2:45:49.920 many cops. So yeah, it works pretty well. 2:45:50.760 --> 2:45:54.600 This is interestingly the same analysis the US police came 2:45:54.640 --> 2:45:58.000 to in twenty twenty. It's easy to stop one large action, 2:45:58.480 --> 2:46:01.480 but several smaller actions split police forces and prevent them 2:46:01.480 --> 2:46:04.800 from just kettling one large block of protesters. I guess 2:46:04.840 --> 2:46:06.240 I think I was interested in is that I think 2:46:06.320 --> 2:46:07.680 one of the things that happens in the US a 2:46:07.680 --> 2:46:09.400 lot is you'll get a national day of action, but 2:46:09.440 --> 2:46:12.840 all of the actions, like there'll just be one giant 2:46:12.879 --> 2:46:15.400 action in a city and you don't get the kind 2:46:15.400 --> 2:46:17.880 of like diffusion that's been helpful with spreading out cop numbers. 2:46:17.879 --> 2:46:20.040 And I was wondering, like, is this something like the 2:46:20.120 --> 2:46:23.120 unions are specifically planning to have multiple events all over 2:46:23.160 --> 2:46:26.280 the place or is that something that's been happening like 2:46:26.400 --> 2:46:27.160 outside that. 2:46:27.400 --> 2:46:32.520 Or no, no, no, the unions only plan once. They 2:46:32.600 --> 2:46:36.760 plan for a strike and for the protests. 2:46:38.320 --> 2:46:42.280 There are also actions, but only one action and the 2:46:42.400 --> 2:46:48.959 others are organized by I mean regular people. 2:46:48.959 --> 2:46:52.080 Or no, but like you mean, the actions on the 2:46:52.160 --> 2:46:56.520 days are not organized by the national union, its local 2:46:56.959 --> 2:47:02.920 unions which do the actions, right, that's what you're talking about. Yes, absolutely, yeah, 2:47:02.959 --> 2:47:09.320 so there are local unions because in friends, unions are 2:47:09.959 --> 2:47:15.000 very federal somewhat this we can talk about it. It's 2:47:15.360 --> 2:47:18.200 a bit of a problem. But like you know, the Segete, 2:47:19.000 --> 2:47:23.760 it started out as an archist union, so they were 2:47:23.800 --> 2:47:28.800 like very into federalism and all of this. So there 2:47:28.840 --> 2:47:33.760 is local autonomy. And what happens is workers in very 2:47:33.800 --> 2:47:39.800 mobilized sectors like the railways, the energy workers, they were 2:47:39.920 --> 2:47:45.560 organized through their union actions on that day, for example. 2:47:47.600 --> 2:47:51.200 And on top of this, for example, you have students 2:47:51.240 --> 2:47:54.760 in a certain high school or a certain university who 2:47:54.760 --> 2:48:01.440 decide to block something and for example, they need support. Recently, 2:48:01.520 --> 2:48:07.199 there was a notably right wing campus who was blocked 2:48:07.200 --> 2:48:10.200 by students, and so a lot of us came to 2:48:10.360 --> 2:48:14.800 help them because we've had never seen this campus blocked ever. 2:48:16.240 --> 2:48:20.800 And of course what happened was some fascists attacked them, 2:48:21.640 --> 2:48:25.320 but we were much much more numerous than them, so 2:48:25.440 --> 2:48:29.039 it was no problem. But the next time they had 2:48:29.040 --> 2:48:33.920 a blockage planned at this campus, they ended up not 2:48:34.000 --> 2:48:38.440 having enough numbers, so they canceled, but the fascists didn't 2:48:38.480 --> 2:48:40.920 know that it was canceled, and so they all came 2:48:41.200 --> 2:48:45.240 really armed with metal bars and all of that. You know. 2:48:46.480 --> 2:48:49.440 Still, despite the threat of fascist streak gangs, and they're 2:48:49.440 --> 2:48:52.480 better armed and morey legitimate counterparts in the police, the 2:48:52.520 --> 2:48:56.200 protests continue. They continue to block roads, they continue to 2:48:56.240 --> 2:49:00.480 occupy universities, They continued to strike, they continued to fight police. 2:49:01.160 --> 2:49:03.840 They continue to find new forms of resistance, new forms 2:49:03.840 --> 2:49:08.160 of solidarity, new worlds composed of people who in ordinary 2:49:08.200 --> 2:49:11.360 times would never have met, and in the process they 2:49:11.360 --> 2:49:15.480 continue to find new ways of being free. Beneath the cobblestones, 2:49:16.280 --> 2:49:20.480 the beach sat another generation of French protesters in May 2:49:20.520 --> 2:49:24.320 of nineteen sixty eight. All you have to do is 2:49:24.400 --> 2:49:44.760 pick it up and throw it. Welcome to Dick It 2:49:44.879 --> 2:49:47.840 Happened Here a podcast about things falling apart and sometimes 2:49:47.879 --> 2:49:50.760 about how to put them back together again. I'm your host, 2:49:50.879 --> 2:49:55.840 Via Wong. This is a We are once again talking 2:49:55.920 --> 2:49:59.120 about Wizards of the Coast. Now this time is not 2:49:59.160 --> 2:50:01.760 about Dungeon Gent Daggs. It is about their other property, 2:50:01.840 --> 2:50:04.680 Magic the Gathering, which if you don't know, is Wizards 2:50:04.680 --> 2:50:07.800 of the Coasts trading card game. That's at the forefront 2:50:07.840 --> 2:50:10.920 of some truly wild stuff right now. Now, you could 2:50:10.959 --> 2:50:14.800 ask Mia, why are we even talking about this about 2:50:14.840 --> 2:50:17.480 Magic the Gathering on this show, And you know, there's 2:50:17.520 --> 2:50:21.960 multiple answers. One of them is that as industrial profit 2:50:22.040 --> 2:50:24.200 rates have been decreasing in the last half a century, 2:50:24.520 --> 2:50:27.240 capital has increasingly turned towards entertainment as a way to 2:50:27.280 --> 2:50:31.039 make money. Magic is now a billion dollar brand, partnering 2:50:31.040 --> 2:50:33.720 with everything from Fortnite to The Walking Dead to and 2:50:33.920 --> 2:50:36.320 this is not a joke, being in the process of 2:50:36.360 --> 2:50:39.160 releasing an entire set of Lord of the Rings cards. 2:50:40.080 --> 2:50:42.959 As capital is flooded into the entertainment industry and Magic 2:50:42.959 --> 2:50:46.000 in particular, our silly little hobbies are suddenly the front 2:50:46.040 --> 2:50:49.760 lines of class struggle. Workers at TCG Player this year, 2:50:50.400 --> 2:50:52.960 given the job of sorting through literally tens of thousands 2:50:53.000 --> 2:50:56.360 of cards that TCG player processes, finally won their second 2:50:56.400 --> 2:50:59.960 attempt to form a union after two devastating union busting campaigns. 2:51:00.760 --> 2:51:05.480 And this is where things get very very weird. Now 2:51:05.640 --> 2:51:08.240 bear with me here, dear listeners. We have to talk 2:51:08.280 --> 2:51:11.440 about a little bit of magic minutia to understand what 2:51:11.480 --> 2:51:13.440 has happened in this incident, and then we will get 2:51:13.440 --> 2:51:15.680 back to what the show is usually about, which is 2:51:15.720 --> 2:51:19.879 corporations killing enormous numbers of people. So a few days ago, 2:51:20.200 --> 2:51:23.199 Dan Cannon, a man who runs a very small Magic 2:51:23.200 --> 2:51:27.160 YouTube channel called Old School EMPTG, bought what he thought 2:51:27.200 --> 2:51:29.680 were cards in the latest Magic the Gathering set called 2:51:29.680 --> 2:51:34.280 March of the Machine. Now Magic releases new cards periodically 2:51:34.280 --> 2:51:38.840 and what are called sets. These sets have plots and characters, 2:51:38.879 --> 2:51:42.000 they have written stories. They are enormous sort of lower events, 2:51:42.160 --> 2:51:45.440 They have enormous hype behind them. And March of the 2:51:45.480 --> 2:51:48.199 Machine story wise, is basically the version of an Avengers 2:51:48.240 --> 2:51:52.879 movie giant apocalyptic threats. All the heroes crossing over people, 2:51:52.920 --> 2:51:54.280 hopping through, multi versus, etc. 2:51:54.480 --> 2:51:54.640 Etc. 2:51:54.800 --> 2:51:58.680 Et cetera. Now, okay, this has happened before. You know, 2:51:58.879 --> 2:52:03.200 Wizards does big sets. It wasn't that weird. But Wizard 2:52:03.200 --> 2:52:07.039 decided to do something very very weird, which is they printed, 2:52:07.600 --> 2:52:10.879 for the first time ever, a mini set called March 2:52:10.920 --> 2:52:15.240 of the Machines March of the Machine Aftermath. Now, the 2:52:15.560 --> 2:52:18.160 regular March of the Machine set has three hundred and 2:52:18.240 --> 2:52:22.920 eighty seven cards in it, Aftermath has fifty. Now, I 2:52:22.920 --> 2:52:24.480 don't know why they decided to do this. They've never 2:52:24.959 --> 2:52:27.360 done anything like this if they've never printed just a 2:52:27.400 --> 2:52:30.480 tiny set they release a bit after the regular set before. 2:52:31.080 --> 2:52:33.440 And you know, the names are very very confusing, right, 2:52:33.480 --> 2:52:34.880 one is called March of the Machine and the other 2:52:34.879 --> 2:52:37.879 one is Marching the Machine Aftermath. How is a regular 2:52:37.879 --> 2:52:40.400 person supposed to keep track of this? The mind boggles, 2:52:41.160 --> 2:52:45.080 et cetera, et cetera. Either way, So Dan Cannon tries 2:52:45.160 --> 2:52:47.720 to buy cards from the regular March of the Machine 2:52:48.160 --> 2:52:52.120 set when he gets in sent instead are by accident 2:52:52.720 --> 2:52:56.959 March of the Machine Aftermath cards. Now these cards are 2:52:56.959 --> 2:52:59.440 still secret. They have not been revealed yet. No no one, 2:52:59.520 --> 2:53:01.160 no one knows what they are. No one's supposed to 2:53:01.200 --> 2:53:04.800 know what they are before every set. There's an incredibly 2:53:04.840 --> 2:53:08.960 elaborate process where Wizards gives cards to influencers to you know, 2:53:09.040 --> 2:53:11.160 reveal them to the public. And on a certain date, 2:53:11.240 --> 2:53:14.160 everyone reveals, you know, your influencer reveals what their card is, 2:53:14.160 --> 2:53:16.840 and there's this whole hype cycle on Reddit, and everyone 2:53:16.920 --> 2:53:18.520 argues about how good the cards are, and i'll call 2:53:18.640 --> 2:53:20.400 the art is and what it means for the story. 2:53:20.760 --> 2:53:23.360 It's sort of it's sort of similar to the the 2:53:24.120 --> 2:53:26.720 sort of hype cycles that would happen around trailers from 2:53:26.720 --> 2:53:29.039 Marvel movies, where people would be analyzing every detail of it, 2:53:29.080 --> 2:53:32.520 et cetera, et cetera. And these are these spoiler seasons, 2:53:32.560 --> 2:53:34.520 as they're called, are a huge deal for Wizards. Date 2:53:34.640 --> 2:53:39.640 Wizards tries to heavily control the entire process, but sometimes 2:53:39.680 --> 2:53:44.120 cards leak out. Now, Dan Cannon suddenly has been handed 2:53:44.200 --> 2:53:46.000 a bunch of cards no one has ever seen before, 2:53:46.080 --> 2:53:49.040 so he does what, you know, every person who just 2:53:49.080 --> 2:53:52.000 suddenly has magic cards that haven't been revealed yet do 2:53:53.000 --> 2:53:54.920 and have been doing for years and years and years. 2:53:55.000 --> 2:53:59.000 He makes a video showing off the cards. Now, importantly, 2:53:59.200 --> 2:54:01.960 this is not a lead. I need to stress this 2:54:02.040 --> 2:54:03.800 because of what's going to happen, what is going to 2:54:03.840 --> 2:54:09.480 happen next, You know, it's it's it's very very easy 2:54:09.800 --> 2:54:12.840 to look at the at the sort of severity of 2:54:12.879 --> 2:54:14.720 what's going to happen to this guy and assume that 2:54:14.760 --> 2:54:16.120 he broke a law. But no, he did not. He 2:54:16.360 --> 2:54:19.520 did not break a law. Nothing he has done he's illegal. Literally, 2:54:19.560 --> 2:54:21.400 what he's done is he bought some magic cards from 2:54:21.400 --> 2:54:24.000 someone who screwed up and accidentally broke the street date 2:54:24.040 --> 2:54:27.120 for selling cards because he confused March of the Machine 2:54:27.120 --> 2:54:30.760 with March of the Machine. Aftermath, Wow, how can anyone 2:54:30.800 --> 2:54:33.240 make that mistake? Right? The genius of Wizards of the 2:54:33.280 --> 2:54:36.160 Coast marketing is unmatched. Everything they do is incredibly clear, 2:54:36.360 --> 2:54:40.520 et cetera, et cetera. Now, in the process, because of 2:54:40.680 --> 2:54:43.760 how many cards he bought and how small the set is, 2:54:43.840 --> 2:54:46.280 he reveals most of the cars that are in the set, 2:54:47.600 --> 2:54:52.440 and then the Pinkertons show up to his house, forced 2:54:52.480 --> 2:54:55.920 their way through his door, make his wife cry, threaten 2:54:56.000 --> 2:54:58.120 to arrest him, and threaten to put him in prison 2:54:58.160 --> 2:55:00.720 for ten years with two hundred thousand do finds for 2:55:00.760 --> 2:55:04.360 copyright infringement on the grounds of him having stolen material. 2:55:05.280 --> 2:55:10.440 The Pinkertons also harass his elderly neighbors. Literally, just today, 2:55:10.480 --> 2:55:14.480 as I'm recording this, a story broken gizmoto that revealed 2:55:14.480 --> 2:55:16.760 that Wizards of the Coast have used the Pinkertons before 2:55:16.840 --> 2:55:21.680 to go after stolen goods. Now, some of you may 2:55:21.720 --> 2:55:24.480 be asking who are the Pinkertons, And you know, I 2:55:24.480 --> 2:55:28.200 think some of you probably know in very broad outlines 2:55:28.200 --> 2:55:31.520 who the Pinkertons are. But in order to really get 2:55:31.560 --> 2:55:35.480 at the core of what this organization is and why 2:55:35.520 --> 2:55:37.520 they look the way they do today as compared to 2:55:37.600 --> 2:55:40.080 how they've looked in the past, we need to ask 2:55:40.080 --> 2:55:43.480 another question, which is how has the balance of military 2:55:43.520 --> 2:55:47.000 power between the state and corporations changed over time? And 2:55:47.120 --> 2:55:51.000 this seems like a very weird question, but the Pinkertons 2:55:51.200 --> 2:55:55.560 emerge in a very weird period of time in this balance. 2:55:56.320 --> 2:55:59.440 They are what fills in the gap between corporations directly 2:55:59.480 --> 2:56:03.320 having army East could concre nations and modern corporations who, 2:56:03.360 --> 2:56:06.040 instead of having their own personal armies, have intelligence, you know, 2:56:06.120 --> 2:56:09.000 vast intelligence agencies, but also rely on the police and 2:56:09.040 --> 2:56:11.800 the governments as the people who do violence for them. 2:56:12.440 --> 2:56:14.800 So let's go back and tell the story from the 2:56:14.879 --> 2:56:17.360 beginning by taking a look a brief look at the 2:56:17.400 --> 2:56:20.600 most infamous corporate army of them all, the army of 2:56:20.640 --> 2:56:24.520 the East India Trading Company. The East India Trading Company 2:56:24.560 --> 2:56:27.200 was formed in sixteen hundred and it was given a 2:56:27.400 --> 2:56:31.920 vast state monopoly over trade in what they called East India, 2:56:31.920 --> 2:56:34.400 which is an area we would broadly call Southeast Asia 2:56:34.400 --> 2:56:37.680 and the South Pacific today. And at the start, these 2:56:37.720 --> 2:56:42.720 guys are optimistically they are half trading group, half pirate. 2:56:43.280 --> 2:56:47.680 The level of piracy is really high, especially in the 2:56:47.760 --> 2:56:52.120 early days. They you know, trade for spices. They steal 2:56:52.160 --> 2:56:54.880 a lot of other people's spices from places like Java 2:56:54.920 --> 2:56:56.640 and they bring them back to England. They make a 2:56:56.640 --> 2:57:00.520 lot of money now over the course of theirs. And 2:57:00.560 --> 2:57:03.360 again it is worth noting that these people are kind 2:57:03.360 --> 2:57:06.960 of the descendants of the British privateers, people like Thomas Drake, 2:57:07.040 --> 2:57:10.040 who'd been you know, just pirates who have been hired 2:57:10.080 --> 2:57:12.680 by the government to only go after like Spanish ships 2:57:12.720 --> 2:57:16.840 instead of English ships. So they are you know, from 2:57:16.920 --> 2:57:19.160 the beginning, the East India Company has this sort of 2:57:19.320 --> 2:57:23.840 DNA of army in it and over the course of 2:57:23.879 --> 2:57:27.640 about two centuries, they are going to conquer with their 2:57:27.680 --> 2:57:30.840 own army most of what is now India and Pakistan, 2:57:31.160 --> 2:57:34.199 and that territory is either going to indirectly or directly 2:57:34.280 --> 2:57:37.520 come under the rule of the East India Company. And 2:57:37.560 --> 2:57:40.240 the East India Company is fighting wars everywhere again. They 2:57:40.240 --> 2:57:42.520 seize India and Pakistan by force. They are fighting wars 2:57:42.520 --> 2:57:48.360 in Afghanistan. They kill unfathomable numbers of people. The worst 2:57:48.400 --> 2:57:51.280 of these events is the Great bengalf Femin'. There's a 2:57:51.320 --> 2:57:53.880 Behind the Bastard's episode about this that you can listen 2:57:53.920 --> 2:57:56.640 to if you want a really sort of long thing 2:57:56.800 --> 2:58:01.200 about the East India Company and the famine. But I 2:58:01.240 --> 2:58:03.279 want to talk about the famine a little bit because 2:58:04.480 --> 2:58:09.080 so the Great Bengal Famine of seventeen seventy kills ten 2:58:09.160 --> 2:58:13.640 million people. And I knew this intellectually, right, I studied 2:58:13.680 --> 2:58:15.879 a bit in college. But what I had never actually 2:58:15.920 --> 2:58:19.720 looked up somehow, what I'd never seen was the percentage 2:58:19.720 --> 2:58:22.120 of the population of this famine kills. And this famine 2:58:22.240 --> 2:58:25.280 is directly the fault of the East India Company. This 2:58:25.320 --> 2:58:27.680 is something that all historians who have look at this 2:58:27.720 --> 2:58:30.000 agree is that this is directly the fault of these 2:58:30.040 --> 2:58:32.800 India Company and the combination of their agricultural policies and 2:58:32.840 --> 2:58:36.240 their tax extraction. This sort of put into perspective how 2:58:36.320 --> 2:58:40.560 bad this gets. The highest serious estimates for the number 2:58:40.600 --> 2:58:43.000 of people who die in the Great Leap Forward stands 2:58:43.000 --> 2:58:46.880 at about thirty million dead. This is an unfathomable atrocity. 2:58:47.120 --> 2:58:49.120 It is a scale of death at which the human 2:58:49.160 --> 2:58:51.600 mind breaks down and loses the ability to process. Some 2:58:51.680 --> 2:58:54.800 of my family lived through it. It is horrific in 2:58:54.840 --> 2:58:57.480 ways that are difficult to even begin to was to describe. 2:58:59.200 --> 2:59:03.200 The Great killed about five percent of China's population. The 2:59:03.200 --> 2:59:07.280 Great Bengal Famine killed thirty percent of the population of 2:59:07.320 --> 2:59:11.360 India that the East India Trading Company controlled thirty percent. 2:59:12.320 --> 2:59:16.080 That's not just sort of small populations statistics either. Right, 2:59:16.120 --> 2:59:18.920 It's not like they killed thirty percent of a country 2:59:18.959 --> 2:59:21.720 with thirty people in it, right, They killed ten million people. 2:59:22.560 --> 2:59:24.800 This isn't you know? This is an unbelievable force of 2:59:24.879 --> 2:59:27.240 human evil. Are they are capable of killing people in 2:59:27.360 --> 2:59:33.560 numbers that defy comprehension. They're able to do this because 2:59:33.560 --> 2:59:35.440 they have an army that is the size of a 2:59:35.560 --> 2:59:39.760 great power nation state. The East India Trading Company's army 2:59:39.840 --> 2:59:44.320 in eighteen hundred had two hundred thousand soldiers. That is 2:59:44.360 --> 2:59:47.959 a massive army. Today, that is like the size of 2:59:48.000 --> 2:59:51.080 the Act of Ukrainian Army in twenty twenty two. It 2:59:51.160 --> 2:59:53.400 is more than twice the size of the British army 2:59:53.440 --> 2:59:56.800 eighteen hundred. And you know, in eighteen hundred it's not 2:59:56.840 --> 2:59:59.200 like the British aren't fighting wars, right they are in 2:59:59.240 --> 3:00:02.760 eighteen hundred are fighting the war the Second Coalition, so. 3:00:02.840 --> 3:00:03.360 They are there. 3:00:03.400 --> 3:00:05.960 They are fighting Napoleon, right, So this isn't a sort 3:00:05.959 --> 3:00:12.680 of you know, completely half assed like peacetime British army. 3:00:13.000 --> 3:00:14.920 This is a you know, this is a serious military force. 3:00:14.959 --> 3:00:17.520 And even even once they like fully build up their 3:00:17.640 --> 3:00:21.920 army at the peak of the Napoleonic Wars thirteen years later, 3:00:22.879 --> 3:00:25.040 the entire size of the British army is about two 3:00:25.120 --> 3:00:28.640 hundred fifty thousand troops and that's not much larger than 3:00:28.640 --> 3:00:31.520 the East India Company's army. At the same time and 3:00:31.879 --> 3:00:35.160 at the height of the East India Trading Company there 3:00:35.200 --> 3:00:37.760 are army swells to again two hundred and fifty thousand, 3:00:37.800 --> 3:00:40.360 which is again the size of the regular British Army 3:00:40.400 --> 3:00:43.680 at in the most desperate war that the British had 3:00:43.720 --> 3:00:47.240 fought to that point. The trading company is a full 3:00:47.320 --> 3:00:51.560 on military great power. Right But and this is this 3:00:51.600 --> 3:00:54.120 is this is something that is going to shape an 3:00:54.320 --> 3:00:59.000 enormous amount of the sort of arc of the relationship 3:00:59.040 --> 3:01:03.520 between corporate and Billie story power. It is unbelievably expensive 3:01:03.560 --> 3:01:07.640 to maintain an army like this, the the the British 3:01:07.720 --> 3:01:10.400 Stadia Company, even though they're they you know, they are 3:01:10.520 --> 3:01:15.240 looting entire nations, right they have they have there there 3:01:15.280 --> 3:01:17.680 are entire states where they fully taken over the tax services. 3:01:17.680 --> 3:01:22.400 They're just walking into temples and taking stuff. But even 3:01:22.480 --> 3:01:24.520 with all of that profit, right they you know, they 3:01:24.520 --> 3:01:26.840 have the ability to mint their own coins in a 3:01:26.840 --> 3:01:29.120 lot of these areas, but they still lose money. And 3:01:29.160 --> 3:01:32.080 they still lose money again because they're maintaining this two 3:01:32.160 --> 3:01:36.480 hundred and fifty thousand strong army. And you know, so 3:01:37.160 --> 3:01:40.000 you have this problem, right, which is that you have 3:01:40.040 --> 3:01:42.640 this item on your balance sheet that is unfathomably expensive. 3:01:42.680 --> 3:01:44.280 And then you have a second problem, which is that 3:01:45.120 --> 3:01:47.040 if you have an army, there's always a danger. But 3:01:47.120 --> 3:01:50.320 the army goes into revolts, and that's what happens. In 3:01:50.360 --> 3:01:53.680 eighteen fifty seven, the British managed to piss off their 3:01:53.680 --> 3:01:58.200 own army, which is almost all composed of Indian troops, 3:01:58.200 --> 3:02:00.440 and they fight an incredibly bloody worn. It is either 3:02:00.440 --> 3:02:04.600 the boy mutiny to suppoy uprising and the British win, 3:02:04.800 --> 3:02:08.400 and they after victory they strap a bunch of prisoners 3:02:08.480 --> 3:02:11.560 bodies to canons and shoot them so they can't be 3:02:11.600 --> 3:02:18.480 properly buried. But the consequence of this sort of horrifying war, 3:02:18.680 --> 3:02:22.920 and particularly the sort of fear it invokes in the 3:02:23.000 --> 3:02:26.240 minds of you know, the British populace of like, oh 3:02:26.280 --> 3:02:28.640 my god, these non white people can actually fight us, 3:02:29.560 --> 3:02:33.240 is that they directly seize control of India from the 3:02:33.240 --> 3:02:36.480 East India Trading Company. And for all your nationalization fans 3:02:36.520 --> 3:02:39.040 out there, the British assuming direct control of India was 3:02:39.080 --> 3:02:42.800 actually a nationalization. It's not actually inherently socialist, guys. You 3:02:42.840 --> 3:02:46.920 have to be a bit smarter than this, But that aside, right, 3:02:46.959 --> 3:02:49.640 this marks an enormous shift in the sort of political 3:02:49.640 --> 3:02:53.080 economy of violence. What is happening here is that states 3:02:53.120 --> 3:02:55.920 are assuming direct military control over their colonies. Instead of 3:02:55.920 --> 3:03:00.440 operating through corporations. And this means that what you see 3:03:00.600 --> 3:03:03.520 is a shift from direct corporate armies to corporations using 3:03:03.560 --> 3:03:06.720 the state to do violence for them. And this doesn't 3:03:06.720 --> 3:03:09.160 mean that corporations don't use force directly today, and it 3:03:09.320 --> 3:03:13.640 also doesn't mean that the governments you know, weren't acting 3:03:13.680 --> 3:03:16.000 as the armies of corporations and like the eighteen hundreds, 3:03:16.080 --> 3:03:22.400 but what's happening here, and specifically the direct seizure of 3:03:22.400 --> 3:03:25.120 India from the East India, the direct seizure of India 3:03:25.200 --> 3:03:29.440 from the East India Company, marks a dramatic shift in 3:03:29.480 --> 3:03:33.840 the balance of forces away from corporations with armies doing 3:03:33.920 --> 3:03:37.840 violence towards states doing violence on their behalf. And this 3:03:38.000 --> 3:03:40.240 is one of the things, alongside sort of slave catchers 3:03:40.240 --> 3:03:42.279 in the US, that leads to the formation of the police. 3:03:43.480 --> 3:03:45.959 You see this but both both both in Britain and 3:03:46.200 --> 3:03:48.560 in sort of France, right, you start to get police 3:03:48.560 --> 3:03:52.760 agencies that are you know, largely tasked with putting down 3:03:52.800 --> 3:03:55.920 their own working class. And this is one of the things, 3:03:56.080 --> 3:03:58.680 one of the sort of inexorable marches that happens over 3:03:58.720 --> 3:04:00.840 the course of the twentieth century. And it's also happening 3:04:00.879 --> 3:04:04.279 in nineteenth century too. There is a sort of mass 3:04:04.280 --> 3:04:08.480 centralization of state and police power, and particularly that's an 3:04:08.520 --> 3:04:11.880 expansion of the bureaucracy. Right the Orican state in eighteen 3:04:11.879 --> 3:04:16.640 forty is barely a functional state by today's standards, right, Like, 3:04:16.720 --> 3:04:19.120 they have an incredibly difficult time even figuring out how 3:04:19.120 --> 3:04:21.680 many people there are in the country, that their provisioning 3:04:21.720 --> 3:04:26.119 of services as a joke, nobody has like geek cars, 3:04:26.160 --> 3:04:29.280 Like people don't even have birth certificates for the most part. 3:04:30.160 --> 3:04:33.640 And that's something, you know, and that's something that changes 3:04:33.720 --> 3:04:35.720 right over the course of sort of the eighteen and 3:04:35.800 --> 3:04:39.360 nineteen hundreds, is that you get a massive bureaucracy. The 3:04:39.400 --> 3:04:41.680 bureaucracy is built on the model of the police, and 3:04:41.720 --> 3:04:44.520 they get bigger and more powerful, and by the time 3:04:44.560 --> 3:04:46.879 you're you know, you're halfway through the twentieth century, get 3:04:47.080 --> 3:04:50.039 you get a modern standing army. And that's something that 3:04:50.120 --> 3:04:52.880 is very, very weird. The Founders, who you know, suck 3:04:52.920 --> 3:04:56.200 ass in enormous numbers of ways, are also fundamentally and 3:04:56.240 --> 3:04:58.640 deeply opposed to standing armies because you know, they are 3:04:58.680 --> 3:05:01.880 students of Roman history and they know that standing armies 3:05:01.920 --> 3:05:04.840 have this you know, this sort of way of seizing power, 3:05:06.560 --> 3:05:08.400 but we've lented in a situation where you know, they 3:05:08.400 --> 3:05:09.120 don't really need to. 3:05:09.200 --> 3:05:09.320 Right. 3:05:09.480 --> 3:05:11.240 The US Army is kept in check by the fact 3:05:11.280 --> 3:05:13.520 that it has it basically a limited budget that increases 3:05:13.560 --> 3:05:15.720 every year, so you can't even like talk about cutting 3:05:15.760 --> 3:05:19.320 it without getting accused of treason. But it didn't used 3:05:19.360 --> 3:05:21.240 to be like that. In the eighteen hundreds, right after 3:05:21.280 --> 3:05:24.240 a war would end, you know, entire parts of the 3:05:24.480 --> 3:05:26.760 like they like, you all the US cavalry, for example, 3:05:26.760 --> 3:05:29.080 sometimes which just get disbanded. Right, there'd be these massive 3:05:29.120 --> 3:05:31.960 reductions in troop size in between wars. And you know 3:05:32.040 --> 3:05:36.280 that doesn't happen anymore, right, But the product of this 3:05:36.520 --> 3:05:41.200 was that, you know, there weren't that many like armed 3:05:41.280 --> 3:05:45.119 agents of the state running around with guns. And that's 3:05:45.160 --> 3:05:48.400 the thing that is completely and utterly ubiquitous in modern 3:05:48.400 --> 3:05:51.320 American life. I mean, modern American life has reached a 3:05:51.360 --> 3:05:54.480 point where people literally you can't even imagine what it 3:05:54.520 --> 3:05:56.959 would be like if there weren't cops literally everywhere, and 3:05:56.959 --> 3:05:58.920 if you didn't have the ability to call the police 3:05:58.959 --> 3:06:01.600 about anything. And that was just the sort of the 3:06:01.600 --> 3:06:03.400 state of affairs for a lot of the eighteen hundreds 3:06:03.400 --> 3:06:05.440 in the US. Is that just you know, they're really 3:06:05.600 --> 3:06:11.880 weren't police. And you know, there's kind of midpoints in 3:06:13.040 --> 3:06:15.360 the level of sort of bureaucratic development and the level 3:06:15.400 --> 3:06:18.360 of sort of the bureaucracy of violence, that is the 3:06:18.360 --> 3:06:27.240 police happens after a bit after the Civil War, where 3:06:27.959 --> 3:06:30.560 there are not enough police to develop the kind of 3:06:30.640 --> 3:06:33.840 sort of to deploy against the kind of violence that 3:06:33.840 --> 3:06:36.640 companies need to stop unions informing. And you know there's 3:06:36.640 --> 3:06:38.840 a secondary problem, right, which is okay, so you know 3:06:39.080 --> 3:06:42.640 there are armed troops in a state, but the armed 3:06:42.680 --> 3:06:45.640 troops are the militia. And you know a lot of 3:06:45.640 --> 3:06:47.800 the times the militia can be relied upon to choose 3:06:47.840 --> 3:06:50.280 striking workers and break them, but there's always a chance 3:06:50.320 --> 3:06:53.520 that you ordered the militia in and the militia are 3:06:53.680 --> 3:06:57.600 people from the towns where you know where the striking 3:06:57.640 --> 3:06:59.120 workers are from. And this is a real problem with 3:06:59.160 --> 3:07:02.360 sheriffs too, is that in this period, you get it, 3:07:02.360 --> 3:07:05.400 you get a lot of sheriffs who just won't prosecute 3:07:05.440 --> 3:07:08.879 workers because the entire town and the sheriff are all 3:07:08.879 --> 3:07:11.480 pro union. And this is where we come to the 3:07:11.520 --> 3:07:16.359 Pinkertons but first, and this is something that the Pinkertons 3:07:16.360 --> 3:07:22.000 would have approved of. Some ads, and we're back. So 3:07:22.360 --> 3:07:26.600 who are the Pinkertons. The Pinkertons are founded by a 3:07:26.640 --> 3:07:30.520 guy named Alan Pinkerton. Alan Pinkerton's an interesting guy. He's 3:07:31.360 --> 3:07:33.600 he's kind of a radical when he's young, he's like 3:07:33.680 --> 3:07:37.080 he's a hardcore abolitionist who like funds John Brown. Right, 3:07:38.360 --> 3:07:40.920 there's a whole debate about the extent to which she 3:07:41.080 --> 3:07:44.080 was involved in a sort of British workers reform movement 3:07:44.120 --> 3:07:49.600 called the chartlists. Every source I've read disagrees about how 3:07:49.640 --> 3:07:52.800 much he was involved in it. It's I mean, one's 3:07:52.840 --> 3:07:55.160 disagreements are basically penning the radiology. I don't know if 3:07:55.200 --> 3:07:56.960 I ever get to get a good answer about how 3:07:57.000 --> 3:08:01.520 involved in it he is. But Pinkerton briefly and kind 3:08:01.520 --> 3:08:03.640 of by accident, becomes a bounty hunter. But he just 3:08:03.680 --> 3:08:07.840 like walks across it, just runs into a camp of 3:08:07.879 --> 3:08:11.840 people who seem to clearly be counterfeitters. And he eventually 3:08:11.879 --> 3:08:15.720 becomes a detective around Michigan and then in Chicago, and 3:08:15.760 --> 3:08:19.920 then he becomes a postal cop. And in the process 3:08:19.959 --> 3:08:23.160 of being a postal cop, he figures out something that 3:08:23.240 --> 3:08:25.800 is more lucrative. He figured out a more lucrative way 3:08:25.800 --> 3:08:27.720 to de detective work than just working for the state, 3:08:28.120 --> 3:08:32.000 which is working for the railways. So by eighteen fifty 3:08:32.200 --> 3:08:34.800 he has a full detective agency going that he renames 3:08:34.800 --> 3:08:39.440 the Pinkertons. Now, you know this is the eighteen fifties, right, 3:08:39.720 --> 3:08:42.480 you are rapidly coproaching the Civil War. Durating the Civil War. 3:08:42.680 --> 3:08:47.320 He is hired by George McClellan, just the worst union general. 3:08:48.520 --> 3:08:51.720 He runs a spy network in the Confederacy that absolutely sucks, 3:08:51.840 --> 3:08:55.720 Like all the spies get caught. His intelligence being awful. 3:08:55.920 --> 3:08:58.800 It's one of the things that leads McClellan to suspect, 3:08:58.959 --> 3:09:01.280 you know, that there's like secret way more Confederate troops 3:09:01.320 --> 3:09:03.119 that there actually are. So he just never does anything 3:09:03.120 --> 3:09:05.160 for the entire worlds Like he's like the worst union 3:09:05.200 --> 3:09:08.440 general until he gets replaced. Yeah, when McClellan is asked, 3:09:08.520 --> 3:09:12.400 Pinkerton is also out, but you know the agency is 3:09:12.440 --> 3:09:16.680 still around and the detectives are initially known as Sidered 3:09:16.720 --> 3:09:23.200 as cinder Dicks for complicated railroading reasons. I yeah, I 3:09:23.240 --> 3:09:25.680 don't know about that one, but it's very funny and 3:09:25.920 --> 3:09:29.560 what they sort of do, right is in this early phases, 3:09:29.600 --> 3:09:31.840 they have this massive network of sort of informants and 3:09:31.879 --> 3:09:35.800 spies that they sell to the highest bidder. They're not 3:09:35.920 --> 3:09:38.560 sort of when you know, they are detectives, right and sometimes, 3:09:38.560 --> 3:09:42.720 but they're not detectives in the Sherlock sense where you 3:09:42.760 --> 3:09:44.600 have a guy who sees a bunch of evidence and 3:09:44.600 --> 3:09:49.000 then uses logic and uses investigation to deduce like who 3:09:49.000 --> 3:09:53.000 did the crime. Pinkerton detectives are operatives. They do infiltrations. 3:09:53.000 --> 3:09:54.959 This is basically their one trick, right is they send 3:09:54.959 --> 3:09:58.160 a guy under cover and then he gets people to 3:09:58.200 --> 3:10:00.000 talk to him, and then they catch the guy because 3:10:00.160 --> 3:10:04.199 someone talked. Right now. The other thing that the Pinkertons 3:10:04.240 --> 3:10:07.280 are really really good at is spinning mythology around them. 3:10:08.320 --> 3:10:12.280 Pinkerton claims that he saved Lincoln from an assassination plot, 3:10:13.840 --> 3:10:17.720 and you know, he successfully convinces Lincoln to flee a 3:10:17.760 --> 3:10:18.840 building in a disguise. 3:10:19.080 --> 3:10:19.240 Right. 3:10:20.280 --> 3:10:22.680 The problem is that you know, as early as like 3:10:22.800 --> 3:10:27.400 the next day after this supposed plot happens, assassinating assassination 3:10:27.440 --> 3:10:30.360 plot happens, people were already claiming that there wasn't one. 3:10:30.959 --> 3:10:33.000 And you know, I think the evidence for their not 3:10:33.120 --> 3:10:35.400 being one is bolstered by the fact that no one 3:10:35.520 --> 3:10:38.120 was ever like, not only was no one ever tried 3:10:38.160 --> 3:10:40.760 for this, no one was ever even arrested for again, 3:10:40.840 --> 3:10:43.240 a plot to assassinate the president of the United States. 3:10:43.840 --> 3:10:47.000 So I am inclined to suspect that this was fake. 3:10:47.200 --> 3:10:50.520 So sorians disagree about this, but he's able to milk 3:10:50.560 --> 3:10:53.360 this for incredible pr right, He's you know, he's like, 3:10:53.400 --> 3:10:55.440 I'm the guy who saved the president, and he does 3:10:55.440 --> 3:10:56.400 this whole sort of like. 3:10:56.879 --> 3:10:59.959 Ah, if I had been there when if I if 3:11:00.080 --> 3:11:02.959 I had only been there when Lincoln was being gunned 3:11:03.040 --> 3:11:06.400 down by John wielks Booth, ah would have saved him. 3:11:06.680 --> 3:11:10.080 And you know, this makes him very famous. They also 3:11:10.160 --> 3:11:14.120 start doing you know, it's sort of word noting, right, 3:11:14.120 --> 3:11:16.240 the kind of crime that they're doing, these guys are, 3:11:17.400 --> 3:11:20.200 they're they're basically a corporate anti crime group. 3:11:20.320 --> 3:11:20.480 Right. 3:11:21.160 --> 3:11:24.240 They solve crimes, but the crimes that they solve are 3:11:24.760 --> 3:11:28.640 people stealing from corporations. So, for example, they do a 3:11:28.640 --> 3:11:31.160 lot of solving bank robberies. They do a lot of 3:11:31.160 --> 3:11:35.039 security to stop train robbers, they do counterfeitting. These are 3:11:35.080 --> 3:11:40.320 all kinds of crimes that affect rich people and you know, 3:11:40.360 --> 3:11:43.000 and so the Ppiccotians are slowly starting to gain this 3:11:43.080 --> 3:11:45.760 reputation to sort of like the hired hands of capital. 3:11:47.120 --> 3:11:50.840 Now they're also sort of doing like frontier outlaws stuff. 3:11:50.879 --> 3:11:53.039 There's a gang of people who there is a gang 3:11:53.080 --> 3:11:55.240 that sort of bandits who they very successfully break up, 3:11:57.200 --> 3:12:02.200 but they also go after Jesse James. Okay, we need 3:12:02.240 --> 3:12:05.120 to tell the story of Jesse James briefly here because 3:12:05.720 --> 3:12:09.000 it's it's an important thing to get an understanding of 3:12:09.920 --> 3:12:12.039 what the sort of conflict that's going on in the 3:12:12.080 --> 3:12:14.480 West is at this point. And the thing that's incredibly 3:12:14.520 --> 3:12:16.840 important to understand about the story of Jesse James versus 3:12:16.840 --> 3:12:19.199 the Pinkerton's is that there are no heroes here. Every 3:12:19.200 --> 3:12:22.560 single person involved in all sides is just an absolutely 3:12:22.640 --> 3:12:26.359 terrible person. So Jesse James is an ex Confederate terrorists 3:12:26.360 --> 3:12:29.640 who somehow managed to make robbing trains uncool by doing 3:12:29.720 --> 3:12:33.480 it dress and a KKK rope with the aim of 3:12:33.560 --> 3:12:38.360 like restoring the honor of the Confederacy. So this sucks. 3:12:38.360 --> 3:12:39.920 And this is where part of the sort of like 3:12:40.280 --> 3:12:43.600 rebel flag like that part of the sort of like 3:12:43.760 --> 3:12:45.800 lost cause myth those comes from right there are you know, 3:12:45.840 --> 3:12:47.880 there are these sort of frontier outlaws who are like 3:12:48.720 --> 3:12:50.880 ex Confederates whose thing is like, yeah, we're like against 3:12:50.879 --> 3:12:52.960 the man and like the maand is like you know, 3:12:53.160 --> 3:12:55.920 the north Right. But these people suck right. These are 3:12:55.920 --> 3:12:57.360 these are these are these are people who fought and 3:12:57.400 --> 3:13:02.400 died for slavery. I Jesse James in particular, like again, 3:13:02.720 --> 3:13:06.160 he's in this group of like gorillas who are fighting 3:13:06.480 --> 3:13:11.080 in Kansas and Missouri. They they do things that are 3:13:11.640 --> 3:13:15.440 genuinely unspeakable. So these people suck right. But the problem 3:13:15.520 --> 3:13:17.720 is the people going after them are the Pinkertons. And 3:13:17.760 --> 3:13:21.000 we're gonna learn a lot about the Pinkertons by what 3:13:21.040 --> 3:13:24.120 they managed to accomplish by going after again ex Confederate 3:13:24.200 --> 3:13:26.080 terrorists who are like some of the worst people who've 3:13:26.080 --> 3:13:29.119 ever lived. So the Pinkertons take this case in eighteen 3:13:29.120 --> 3:13:31.760 seventy one. He sends in a bunch of agents try 3:13:31.800 --> 3:13:35.400 to infiltrate the gang, and Jesse James like smokes them all. So, 3:13:35.680 --> 3:13:38.480 in a very sort of modern cop move, the Pinkertons 3:13:38.520 --> 3:13:42.160 do a raid on Jesse James's house. So they throw 3:13:42.240 --> 3:13:50.000 in this weird pseudo it's a very weird kind of 3:13:50.040 --> 3:13:55.160 explosive device thing that I don't know. They claim that 3:13:55.200 --> 3:13:58.680 they were just trying to scare like the family out 3:13:58.680 --> 3:14:01.560 of the house so they could arrest them. But the 3:14:01.600 --> 3:14:03.880 family sees this thing that looks like a bomb and 3:14:03.920 --> 3:14:06.160 they throw it into their fireplace and it blows up, 3:14:07.320 --> 3:14:09.640 and instead of smoking the family out, they have now 3:14:09.800 --> 3:14:12.760 blown up Jesse James's nine year old step brother and 3:14:12.840 --> 3:14:17.200 maimed a mom. So the Piggertons absolutely suck right like 3:14:17.240 --> 3:14:19.600 so far in there at the catch Jesse James, they 3:14:19.600 --> 3:14:21.800 have managed to blow up a child. 3:14:21.600 --> 3:14:22.560 And name a woman. 3:14:23.520 --> 3:14:26.000 Now you can ask the question, right, Okay, so they 3:14:26.040 --> 3:14:29.720 have killed a child, they have maimed a woman. Do 3:14:29.920 --> 3:14:32.840 they get Jesse James. No, No, they don't. They never 3:14:32.879 --> 3:14:35.360 get him, because that's what happens when you know, you 3:14:35.360 --> 3:14:37.800 have an ex Confederate in places where with a bunch 3:14:37.840 --> 3:14:39.800 of ex Confederates, with a bunch of people who support 3:14:39.800 --> 3:14:42.960 the Confederacy right, they won't turn over their own people, 3:14:44.000 --> 3:14:45.520 and you know, and when the people they're going up 3:14:45.520 --> 3:14:48.720 against are the Piggertons, who are like the hired guns 3:14:48.720 --> 3:14:50.959 of Northern Capital, a bunch of people, you know, what 3:14:50.959 --> 3:14:52.640 happens is a bunch of grand people end up dead. 3:14:53.480 --> 3:14:57.879 And yeah, but both sides of this are incredibly deeply evil. 3:14:57.920 --> 3:15:00.000 Jesse James is later shot by one of his own men, 3:15:00.680 --> 3:15:05.600 and yeah, that is the famous story of Jesse James 3:15:06.240 --> 3:15:09.039 versus the Pinkertons, which I think is useful in establishing that, 3:15:09.160 --> 3:15:13.720 like God, like, the South are obviously the bad guys 3:15:13.800 --> 3:15:16.959 in the Civil War, but a lot of the people 3:15:17.040 --> 3:15:22.520 in the Union are sort of genuinely awful hired gun 3:15:22.720 --> 3:15:26.560 for capital people. And you know that's not so much 3:15:26.560 --> 3:15:28.879 of a big deal dreamed the war, but after the war, 3:15:29.680 --> 3:15:31.480 you know, you got these battles just like, oh God, 3:15:31.560 --> 3:15:35.959 everyone here is like everyone here should simply die now. 3:15:36.400 --> 3:15:39.320 Ellen Pinkerton dies in eighteen eighty six, and he is 3:15:39.400 --> 3:15:43.760 replaced by his even worse sons. And at this point 3:15:45.440 --> 3:15:48.280 the Pinkertons cease even sort of the pretense of being 3:15:48.280 --> 3:15:50.879 a detective agency, and they devote themselves full time to 3:15:50.920 --> 3:15:55.000 being strike breakers. Now they have spies everywhere. They have 3:15:55.160 --> 3:15:57.200 you know, over a thousand of them at their peak, 3:15:57.360 --> 3:16:00.000 spread across the dozens and dozens and dozens of Union, 3:16:00.120 --> 3:16:03.480 and they are spying on meetings or appointed with the pinkertons. 3:16:03.520 --> 3:16:05.959 And this allows corporations. For example, if you know who's 3:16:05.959 --> 3:16:08.720 in a union meeting, right, you can just fire all 3:16:08.760 --> 3:16:12.320 of them. And this is especially easy. And you know 3:16:12.480 --> 3:16:15.600 in this sort of pre nineteen thirties period where like 3:16:16.120 --> 3:16:19.160 there is no protected right to strike, right, like you 3:16:19.640 --> 3:16:24.360 if you stop working, that is illegal. The other thing 3:16:24.400 --> 3:16:28.400 they do is provide quote unquote security for corporations training strikes. 3:16:29.280 --> 3:16:32.080 What this looks like in practice is shooting people. And 3:16:32.160 --> 3:16:34.640 you know, sometimes those people are striking workers, like the 3:16:34.680 --> 3:16:37.360 three strikers they killed in the Pennsylvania close strike of 3:16:37.400 --> 3:16:41.240 eighteen ninety. Sometimes they just shoot random bystanders, like the 3:16:41.320 --> 3:16:45.439 random guy they shot in eighteen sixty six, while providing security. 3:16:45.920 --> 3:16:48.960 And you know, again when you're shooting in random bysanta, 3:16:49.160 --> 3:16:50.240 you have to ask. 3:16:50.120 --> 3:16:55.080 Like security for who, like who is. 3:16:55.040 --> 3:16:57.879 The security you're providing for when you're just shooting random people? 3:16:58.640 --> 3:17:01.200 You know, anominally it's for the alo doing a dock strike. 3:17:01.600 --> 3:17:05.080 And sometimes, like in eighteen seventy seven, they shoot children 3:17:05.560 --> 3:17:07.640 where they shot and killed a fifteen year old you 3:17:07.760 --> 3:17:11.800 a Jersey coal wharf strike, you know, and they do 3:17:11.840 --> 3:17:13.560 stuff like this all the time. Right, there's a famous 3:17:13.560 --> 3:17:15.680 incident in Chicago where a bunch of people are yelling 3:17:15.680 --> 3:17:17.360 at them, because again the thinker does have a really 3:17:17.400 --> 3:17:20.400 bad reputation among workers at this point. And you know 3:17:20.400 --> 3:17:22.320 there's a point where they're they're going by on a 3:17:22.400 --> 3:17:24.480 train and people yelled the train and the Pinkertons just 3:17:24.520 --> 3:17:26.440 bomb by, taking out the rifles and shooting four people 3:17:26.440 --> 3:17:32.800 out the window. So you know these are good people, TM, right. 3:17:33.200 --> 3:17:35.840 The other thing they do is they start getting into 3:17:35.879 --> 3:17:38.959 breaking strikes by being a company you can hire to 3:17:39.000 --> 3:17:44.400 import scabs, and this culminates in the Homestead strike. Again, 3:17:44.400 --> 3:17:47.080 there's another thing. There's like a giant Bastard's episode on, 3:17:47.200 --> 3:17:49.600 but we'll do we'll do a short version of the 3:17:49.600 --> 3:17:53.199 Homestead strike. So the Homestet strike is this giant confrontation 3:17:53.280 --> 3:17:56.520 between steel workers and the forces of Andrew Carnagie and 3:17:56.600 --> 3:17:59.720 Henry Frick. Carnagian Frick like locked the union out of 3:17:59.720 --> 3:18:02.560 the factory and they call a Pinkerton army to seize 3:18:02.600 --> 3:18:05.200 control of the town of Homestead. This is from the 3:18:05.240 --> 3:18:08.000 book Inventing the Pinkertons quote. By the end of June, 3:18:08.080 --> 3:18:10.640 he had built around the mills of protective twelve foot 3:18:10.720 --> 3:18:15.039 fence that included rifle holes, waterman's capable of blasting strikers 3:18:15.080 --> 3:18:18.160 with boiling water, and wires attached to a generator which 3:18:18.160 --> 3:18:22.720 could be electrified. In response, workers dubbed the mills Fort Frick. 3:18:24.160 --> 3:18:28.040 Now striking steel workers and other residents of Homestead. Here 3:18:28.080 --> 3:18:31.360 the Pinkertons are coming and they, you know, they the 3:18:31.440 --> 3:18:34.119 Pinkertons are trying to land on these like invasion barges 3:18:34.160 --> 3:18:37.840 that they've modified, and so the homestead people go try 3:18:37.840 --> 3:18:40.560 to stop the barges, and the Pinkertons start shooting at them. 3:18:40.600 --> 3:18:42.400 And this is the thing that's very interesting about this 3:18:42.400 --> 3:18:46.400 whole story is that, Okay, every account at the time 3:18:47.480 --> 3:18:50.120 agrees that the first person the people who started shooting 3:18:50.120 --> 3:18:54.959 first with pinkertons. Later accounts suddenly, like mysteriously later on 3:18:55.040 --> 3:18:58.039 it suddenly start to claim it like, well, nobody really 3:18:58.120 --> 3:19:00.480 knows she started the shooting in these fights, like maybe 3:19:00.560 --> 3:19:03.039 it was a worker, but like again everyone at the 3:19:03.080 --> 3:19:07.959 time cause it was the pinkertons. So I and give, 3:19:08.120 --> 3:19:10.040 given what we know about the track record of pinkertons 3:19:10.040 --> 3:19:12.119 are shooting children and shooting random people yelling at them 3:19:12.120 --> 3:19:15.360 outside of a train of shooting, just literally random people 3:19:15.440 --> 3:19:18.720 on the streets. We can be pretty sure that Pinkertons 3:19:18.760 --> 3:19:21.959 started this, and but you know, the workers in Homestead 3:19:21.959 --> 3:19:25.200 are heavily armed, and this starts a massive gun battle. 3:19:26.040 --> 3:19:29.520 I'm gonna read from inventing the Pinkertons again. This serious 3:19:29.520 --> 3:19:32.959 battle would last the next fourteen hours. After an initial shurge, 3:19:32.959 --> 3:19:36.279 the Pinkertons were pinned down in their barges. After several hours, 3:19:36.280 --> 3:19:38.800 the crowd attempted to sink the barges by cannon fire. 3:19:39.240 --> 3:19:42.160 Residents borrowed the cannon that had been that the city 3:19:42.240 --> 3:19:44.240 used for commemorations and by the way, that that's a 3:19:44.280 --> 3:19:47.480 Civil war cannon that they're using it in eighteen ninety to 3:19:47.520 --> 3:19:51.960 try to sink these boats. The crowd also set burning 3:19:52.120 --> 3:19:55.480 railcars rolling towards the barges and sprayed oil lunch the 3:19:55.640 --> 3:19:57.520 river was they attempted a light on fire in hopes 3:19:57.560 --> 3:20:01.160 of burning the Pinkertons out of their barges. The lubricating 3:20:01.160 --> 3:20:03.840 oil thrown onto the water proved impossible to set a flame. 3:20:04.520 --> 3:20:07.920 So the Pickertons like try to surrender, But by this 3:20:07.920 --> 3:20:10.560 one people hate them so much that every they threw 3:20:10.680 --> 3:20:13.480 this four times, and each time someone will hold up 3:20:13.480 --> 3:20:15.640 a white flag and a sniper will shoot the flag 3:20:15.680 --> 3:20:18.880 and refuse to let them surrender. On try five, the 3:20:18.920 --> 3:20:22.720 Pickertons are finally allowed to surrender and the Pickersons are crushed, 3:20:23.000 --> 3:20:25.240 but unfortunately, the state militia is brought in to sort 3:20:25.240 --> 3:20:27.480 of break the strike and the union movement in Pennsylvania 3:20:27.520 --> 3:20:32.400 is essentially destroyed. But pr White this is terrible from 3:20:32.400 --> 3:20:36.000 the Pinkertons, and they start trying to do like a 3:20:36.000 --> 3:20:38.600 giant pr OP to sort of recover the reputation, and 3:20:38.600 --> 3:20:40.400 a lot of what the sort of popular image of 3:20:40.440 --> 3:20:43.760 the Pinkertons right comes from the pr op the agency does, 3:20:43.800 --> 3:20:46.120 like after the Homes District that gets reproduced by like 3:20:46.200 --> 3:20:50.280 TV producers later on. So fast forwarding a little bit 3:20:50.320 --> 3:20:52.840 to some other stuff that they were involved in. In 3:20:52.920 --> 3:20:55.920 late nineteen oh five, someone blew up the notoriously anti 3:20:56.040 --> 3:20:58.800 union governor of Idaho who'd sent troops to kill striking 3:20:58.800 --> 3:21:03.279 workers a few years ago. Now Idaho hires a Pinkerton 3:21:03.879 --> 3:21:06.480 detective to just torture a guy into confessing to the 3:21:06.600 --> 3:21:10.760 murder and then also claiming that like basically every instance 3:21:10.760 --> 3:21:13.960 of violence in the last five years in in in 3:21:14.040 --> 3:21:16.160 that part of the US was committed by the i 3:21:16.360 --> 3:21:18.880 w W, who are the WW are a very very 3:21:18.959 --> 3:21:23.120 radical union whose thing basically was that society should be 3:21:23.160 --> 3:21:28.119 run by like confederations of direct democratic unions like run 3:21:28.280 --> 3:21:30.000 you know, in all all of society, all the production 3:21:30.080 --> 3:21:33.320 should be run by workers in these in you know, 3:21:33.400 --> 3:21:35.960 in in in the form of like one giant direct 3:21:36.000 --> 3:21:40.160 democratic union. And people hate this, and by people, I 3:21:40.240 --> 3:21:43.879 mean like bosses absolutely hate this EW. Very IWW very 3:21:43.879 --> 3:21:46.840 popular with workers. Bosses are going to spend the next 3:21:47.000 --> 3:21:50.240 rest of theirs just murdering them, you know. But having 3:21:50.360 --> 3:21:55.240 having tortured this guy into saying into fingering the industrial 3:21:55.280 --> 3:21:58.360 workers of the world in this conspiracy, they get Big 3:21:58.400 --> 3:22:00.880 Bill Haywood, who is one of the most famous and 3:22:00.920 --> 3:22:04.640 like successful organizers of the AWW, and several other IWW 3:22:04.760 --> 3:22:08.120 leaders kidnapped and taken into Idaho to stand trial for murder, 3:22:08.280 --> 3:22:11.600 which again they had nothing to do with. Haywood is 3:22:11.640 --> 3:22:15.360 defended by Clarence Darrow of the infamous Scopes Monkey trial, 3:22:15.920 --> 3:22:19.760 and Haywood gets off, but the case the serious damage 3:22:19.760 --> 3:22:21.920 to the WW. If you want to learn more about 3:22:21.920 --> 3:22:25.640 this whole story, go listen to Cool People Who Did 3:22:25.720 --> 3:22:28.000 Cool Stuff there's two episodes about the IWW in this 3:22:28.040 --> 3:22:31.040 period called the IWW and the Hoboes. You saved free speech. 3:22:31.600 --> 3:22:35.480 It's good stuff, you know. I should also briefly mention, right, 3:22:35.560 --> 3:22:40.040 another thing that the Pinkertons do is Okay, so if 3:22:40.040 --> 3:22:43.800 someone someone's wanted in one state, right, instead of having 3:22:43.840 --> 3:22:46.240 to like make you know, the government having to like 3:22:46.480 --> 3:22:48.160 the state government have to making requests, have to be 3:22:48.200 --> 3:22:50.600 having to make request to another state in order to 3:22:50.640 --> 3:22:52.600 get them to extradite someone, they would just have the 3:22:52.640 --> 3:22:54.960 Pingertions kidnap them. This is this is one of the 3:22:55.000 --> 3:22:58.480 sort of big services they provide. They also seemed it's 3:22:58.560 --> 3:23:01.720 very unclear. I don't know, this historical record is a 3:23:01.720 --> 3:23:04.880 bit muddled. They seem also to have been people you 3:23:04.920 --> 3:23:07.080 could hire if so if like your spouse was trying 3:23:07.080 --> 3:23:12.000 to divorce you, which sucks. Is deeply evil. 3:23:13.320 --> 3:23:16.439 They do sort of lots. 3:23:16.200 --> 3:23:18.480 More deeply evil stuff, which we will get into after 3:23:18.520 --> 3:23:22.000 these ads. All right, we're back, So speaking of deeply 3:23:22.040 --> 3:23:25.240 evil stuff, they also send one hundred detectives to break 3:23:25.240 --> 3:23:28.000 a strike of the mostly black Brotherhood of Timber Workers, 3:23:28.000 --> 3:23:32.039 which is an IWW affiliate in Louisiana. Now they break this. 3:23:32.120 --> 3:23:35.160 They try to break this union by walking into a 3:23:35.280 --> 3:23:39.320 union meeting shooting forty four people and killing four of them. 3:23:40.560 --> 3:23:44.120 There are like forty more stories of a guy with 3:23:44.160 --> 3:23:45.920 the Pinkerton walks in and shoots a bunch of people 3:23:45.920 --> 3:23:48.640 that I could put here. I had to find the 3:23:48.720 --> 3:23:52.520 limit at some point to how many stories about Pinkerton's 3:23:52.600 --> 3:23:54.680 murdering people that I could I could sort of put 3:23:54.760 --> 3:23:57.800 But you know, there's an interesting shift that starts to 3:23:57.840 --> 3:24:00.440 happen in the in sort of as the nineteen hundred, 3:24:00.720 --> 3:24:03.840 you know, the nineteen hundreds turned into nineteen tens. The 3:24:03.840 --> 3:24:06.720 Pinkertons start to figure out that it's more effective to 3:24:06.720 --> 3:24:09.640 form mobs of vigilantes than it is to fight unions directly. 3:24:09.760 --> 3:24:12.360 And there's a few benefits here, right, There's less danger 3:24:12.400 --> 3:24:16.280 to detectives themselves. It's easier to deploy large numbers of people. 3:24:17.480 --> 3:24:19.720 Instead of having to sort of like pay an enormous 3:24:19.720 --> 3:24:21.680 amount of money for a bunch of like eight hundred 3:24:21.720 --> 3:24:23.640 detectives and weapons and logistics, you can just sort of 3:24:23.640 --> 3:24:25.720 whip up a mob and get them to do the shooting, right. 3:24:26.120 --> 3:24:28.800 The Pinkertons also get plausible deniability, which is very helpful. 3:24:28.840 --> 3:24:32.080 For their reputation, and you know, the Pinkertons are are 3:24:32.200 --> 3:24:34.680 very much ahead of the curve here. The government, you know, 3:24:34.959 --> 3:24:36.920 who is going to displace the Pinkertons is sort of 3:24:36.959 --> 3:24:40.840 the main force opposing the IWW in later sort of 3:24:40.879 --> 3:24:44.080 like cio union organizing that you know, turn into the 3:24:44.120 --> 3:24:46.880 two Red Scares. They're going to start taking pages from 3:24:46.879 --> 3:24:49.480 the Pinkerton's book, and eventually they are going to you know, 3:24:49.560 --> 3:24:52.760 instead of like sending the US Army to invade Nicarago, 3:24:52.760 --> 3:24:54.320 which is what they would have done in the eighteen hundreds, 3:24:54.320 --> 3:24:55.680 by you know, by the time you gets to the 3:24:55.760 --> 3:25:01.560 nineteen eighties, right, they are sending people to train Nicaraguan 3:25:01.680 --> 3:25:06.160 desk squads. And so we can track the shift here. 3:25:06.280 --> 3:25:08.800 Right as the nineteenth century comes to a close and 3:25:08.840 --> 3:25:11.960 we get to sort of the October Revolution of the 3:25:12.000 --> 3:25:13.879 height of the Red Scare, we're in a place where 3:25:13.879 --> 3:25:17.360 they're starting to be enough cops and enough federal agents 3:25:17.400 --> 3:25:20.240 to do the job the Pinkertons had done in previous generations. 3:25:20.760 --> 3:25:24.560 And you know, there's sort of robust arguments in the 3:25:25.640 --> 3:25:29.320 the sort of historiography about to what extent j Edgar 3:25:29.400 --> 3:25:33.520 Hoover and the FBI were influenced by the Pinkertons. I 3:25:33.560 --> 3:25:36.320 think there's decent evidence that they that they were influenced 3:25:36.360 --> 3:25:40.160 by them. But the FBI kind of turns into what 3:25:40.200 --> 3:25:43.199 the Pinkertons are. You know, they're the people who suddenly 3:25:43.240 --> 3:25:45.720 are like showing up and shooting people, showing up and 3:25:45.800 --> 3:25:49.560 arresting union organizers, deporting union organizers from the country. But 3:25:49.680 --> 3:25:51.760 this puts the Pinkertons in kind of a weird spot 3:25:51.879 --> 3:25:55.000 right there. The Pinkerton name has become synonymous with sort 3:25:55.000 --> 3:25:59.520 of this this kind of like they're called sort of 3:25:59.520 --> 3:26:03.760 like feudal retainers, right, these sort of lawless private armies 3:26:03.800 --> 3:26:06.599 that are you know, not supposed to exist in a democracy. 3:26:07.879 --> 3:26:10.080 And so you know in the nineteen thirties when the 3:26:10.080 --> 3:26:12.800 Wagnerak like makes strikes legal, right. I talked about the 3:26:13.040 --> 3:26:14.920 Wagner Acts a long time ago, an episode called The 3:26:15.080 --> 3:26:19.119 Eden Makes Its Strong. But after this they tried Robert 3:26:19.120 --> 3:26:21.400 Pinkerton the second who's the new sort of owner of 3:26:21.400 --> 3:26:25.080 the Pinkerton tries to do a rebrand and he has 3:26:25.120 --> 3:26:29.480 this great quote. That's quote he's talking about union busting. 3:26:29.680 --> 3:26:31.760 That is a phase of our business that we are 3:26:31.800 --> 3:26:35.680 not particularly delighted or proud of and we're out of it. However, 3:26:36.080 --> 3:26:39.320 there was nothing illegal about it at the time. Now, okay, 3:26:39.400 --> 3:26:41.080 you could say a lot about what was or wasn't 3:26:41.120 --> 3:26:43.560 illegal in a period when you know, you could order 3:26:43.600 --> 3:26:46.760 a drink that was cocaine mixed with wine and you know, 3:26:46.800 --> 3:26:49.360 you could just get like opium prescribed to your baby, 3:26:49.600 --> 3:26:53.320 But torturing and murdering people was still legal back then. Now, 3:26:53.440 --> 3:26:55.000 I guess if you're you know, if you really wanted 3:26:55.000 --> 3:26:56.720 to have fun, you can get into an argument that like, 3:26:56.840 --> 3:26:59.600 nowhere in the constitution is murdered specifically banned, but like, 3:26:59.640 --> 3:27:02.760 you know, how fun with that. But FDR and the 3:27:02.760 --> 3:27:05.520 New Dealers go after the Pinkerton's very hard. And this 3:27:05.560 --> 3:27:08.720 is a lot of interesting effects. What it means is, 3:27:08.760 --> 3:27:10.680 on the one hand, you can't have some guy with 3:27:10.760 --> 3:27:13.039 a detective badge who works for a corporation walked into 3:27:13.080 --> 3:27:15.560 a union meeting and start the killing. But it also 3:27:15.600 --> 3:27:17.440 means that when you need someone to smash a union 3:27:17.480 --> 3:27:19.840 by force, it's going to be the state doing it. 3:27:20.480 --> 3:27:22.800 And the aposteosis of this sort of one of the 3:27:22.800 --> 3:27:25.960 internal contradictions that destroys a new Deal is that it's 3:27:26.040 --> 3:27:28.160 reliance on the state to contain the worst exis of 3:27:28.160 --> 3:27:32.760 capitalism means that you know, they have in turn directly 3:27:32.879 --> 3:27:36.560 enormously empowered the state and the state's military capacity. And 3:27:36.600 --> 3:27:39.840 this means that in the nineteen eighties unions are going 3:27:39.879 --> 3:27:42.640 to be destroyed by the state that the New Deal 3:27:42.680 --> 3:27:46.320 had built. The Pickertons are replaced by Hoover and the 3:27:46.360 --> 3:27:48.480 g Men, and the g Men are eventually sort of 3:27:49.360 --> 3:27:51.840 become known as the dreaded modern fat who you know, 3:27:52.040 --> 3:27:55.760 lurks at every doorstep eating babies and is the terror 3:27:55.800 --> 3:27:57.680 of every sort of political movement in the US. 3:27:59.720 --> 3:27:59.920 Now. 3:28:00.200 --> 3:28:03.960 The Pinkertons, for for their part, right with union busting 3:28:04.000 --> 3:28:07.320 now technically illegal, and when I say union busting like 3:28:07.400 --> 3:28:10.800 I mean walking in, shooting people stop and performing a union, 3:28:11.560 --> 3:28:15.360 they start working basically as regular security guards. And then 3:28:15.400 --> 3:28:17.840 they move on to selling surveillance equipment and trainings for 3:28:17.879 --> 3:28:22.560 government organizations. And this reflects a kind of larger shift 3:28:22.800 --> 3:28:27.240 in what kinds of military operations the corporations run, which 3:28:27.280 --> 3:28:32.199 is that instead of directly running armies or hiring groups 3:28:32.200 --> 3:28:34.640 like the Pinkertons to do violence for them, now what 3:28:34.640 --> 3:28:38.640 they're in the business office intelligence operations. And this changes 3:28:38.720 --> 3:28:42.280 the way that corporations kill people enormously. You know, when 3:28:42.560 --> 3:28:45.240 Coca Cola now needs to kill union organizers, right, they 3:28:45.240 --> 3:28:48.240 have paramilitaries for this. Now, some of these guys are contractors, 3:28:48.240 --> 3:28:49.480 some of them are paid under the table, some of 3:28:49.520 --> 3:28:51.600 them are in it for ideology, some of it for money. 3:28:51.640 --> 3:28:52.840 But it's not you. 3:28:52.800 --> 3:28:57.040 Know, it's not quite like Coca Cola has its own 3:28:57.080 --> 3:28:59.720 military force like it would have been in the eighteen hundreds, 3:28:59.720 --> 3:29:03.560 and they're hundreds. It's also not there is just like 3:29:03.640 --> 3:29:05.760 a private but there's not like it's not they're not. 3:29:05.760 --> 3:29:09.240 They're not also not like hiring a specific private military contractor. Right, 3:29:10.120 --> 3:29:12.160 the way they do, way they do it tends to 3:29:12.200 --> 3:29:17.800 be they you know, sort of semi clandestinely arm paramilitary. Now, 3:29:17.840 --> 3:29:20.320 there are limited exceptions where sort of like oil companies 3:29:20.360 --> 3:29:22.520 will have private armies and places where civil wars are 3:29:22.520 --> 3:29:25.400 going on, but that's usually a thing that happens when 3:29:25.400 --> 3:29:29.000 they're in a place that doesn't have state capacity. When 3:29:29.000 --> 3:29:31.240 they're in a place that does have state capacity, like 3:29:31.280 --> 3:29:34.879 for example, Nigeria, you get a very very different story. 3:29:35.240 --> 3:29:39.720 So Nigeria is a major oil producer, and this has 3:29:39.760 --> 3:29:42.080 a number of consequences on the places where that oil 3:29:42.120 --> 3:29:43.880 is extracted. A huge amount of it comes from the 3:29:43.959 --> 3:29:47.199 Niger Delta, where the government faces an almost perennial insurgency. 3:29:47.800 --> 3:29:49.959 So okay, why is there an insurgency there? 3:29:50.040 --> 3:29:50.200 Right? 3:29:50.560 --> 3:29:52.679 Part of the reason is that there is an indescribable 3:29:52.680 --> 3:29:55.000 amount of wealth coming out of the oil and Niger Delta, 3:29:55.320 --> 3:29:58.520 and that money goes mostly to I mean, might I 3:29:58.520 --> 3:30:01.000 say mostly ninety percent of it right, go to Nigerian 3:30:01.000 --> 3:30:04.959 elites and corrupt for oil for in oil companies. And 3:30:05.000 --> 3:30:06.640 you know. Another part of the reason this turns into 3:30:06.680 --> 3:30:11.000 an insurgency is that people try nonviolence with disobedience in 3:30:11.040 --> 3:30:14.119 the Niger Delta to protest the sort of horrific environmental 3:30:14.200 --> 3:30:18.320 consequences of companies like Shell doing oil extraction, you know. 3:30:18.400 --> 3:30:21.039 And they have these marches that will draw out three 3:30:21.160 --> 3:30:23.880 hundred thousand people in places where this is half of 3:30:23.959 --> 3:30:26.959 the population, half the total population of the ethnic group 3:30:27.000 --> 3:30:32.680 being affected. The Nigerian government responds by publicly executing one 3:30:32.680 --> 3:30:36.040 of the movement's leaders, the famous activist Ken Sarrowewa, by 3:30:36.080 --> 3:30:38.720 hanging him and then dissolving his body and limes we 3:30:38.760 --> 3:30:41.560 couldn't be buried, which is a real British Empire. Shit 3:30:42.440 --> 3:30:44.440 And okay, so at this point you've come to the 3:30:44.480 --> 3:30:47.480 sort of crossroad of a nonviolent movement, right where the 3:30:47.480 --> 3:30:49.800 government's answer to non violence we will publicly hang you 3:30:50.600 --> 3:30:52.240 and you get you get to this question do you 3:30:52.320 --> 3:30:53.840 take up arms? And the answer is yeah, a lot 3:30:53.840 --> 3:30:54.200 of people do. 3:30:54.400 --> 3:30:54.560 Right. 3:30:54.840 --> 3:30:57.199 This is this is this is a very complicated insurgency 3:30:57.240 --> 3:30:59.160 in a lot of ways that you know, we can't 3:30:59.200 --> 3:31:01.480 do justice here too. But I want to read something 3:31:01.520 --> 3:31:04.160 from this interview from a guy for the Movement for 3:31:04.280 --> 3:31:06.840 the Emancipation of the Niger Delta Men, which is one 3:31:06.879 --> 3:31:11.000 of the many, many, many, many many like Milton groups 3:31:11.000 --> 3:31:14.240 that appear in the Delta over the last twenty five years. Quote, 3:31:15.040 --> 3:31:17.960 this is our territory. The soldiers dare not come here. 3:31:18.080 --> 3:31:21.840 Now they came, and we defeat them. He says. We 3:31:21.920 --> 3:31:24.640 are civilized people, educated people, and we do not want 3:31:24.680 --> 3:31:27.039 our children to be deprived as we have been deprived 3:31:27.680 --> 3:31:29.760 so other people can get rich from what is under 3:31:29.800 --> 3:31:32.520 our feet. The oil companies have had many years to 3:31:32.600 --> 3:31:35.760 treat us rights. They have never done that. Now we 3:31:35.840 --> 3:31:39.720 are making them think. Now if this is you know 3:31:40.600 --> 3:31:43.600 eighteen twenty right, and shell is dealing with people taking 3:31:43.680 --> 3:31:45.480 up arms and cutting off their ability to sort of 3:31:45.520 --> 3:31:48.200 like extract profits of oil. They would form an army 3:31:48.280 --> 3:31:50.760 of semi literate Belgian and British barbarians, arm they with 3:31:50.840 --> 3:31:53.360 cannons and conquer the region and place the entire area 3:31:53.480 --> 3:31:56.880 under direct corporate rule. You know, if this was say, 3:31:57.120 --> 3:31:59.959 like the eighteen nineties, right, they would hire the pinker 3:32:00.080 --> 3:32:01.880 Chance and the Pinkertons, nego shoot these people before them. 3:32:02.440 --> 3:32:04.600 But this is the nineteen nineties, in the two thousands, 3:32:05.240 --> 3:32:09.879 so instead, what Shell does is literally pay the salaries 3:32:09.920 --> 3:32:12.880 of Nigerian cops who go slaughter protesters in the streets, 3:32:13.680 --> 3:32:16.480 and eventually they move to spending hundreds of millions of 3:32:16.520 --> 3:32:18.880 dollars just just between two thousand and seven two thousand 3:32:18.920 --> 3:32:24.160 and nine alone directly funding equipping an army, the Nigerian Army, 3:32:25.160 --> 3:32:28.360 and a special like war crimes task force called the 3:32:28.440 --> 3:32:32.119 Joint Task Force the JFT, which is this like it's 3:32:32.160 --> 3:32:34.720 this sort of incredible thing where the army, the navy 3:32:34.760 --> 3:32:37.320 and the police do a fusion dance to massacre civilians. 3:32:39.120 --> 3:32:40.920 And you know, I say this hundreds of millions of dollars, right, 3:32:40.920 --> 3:32:43.240 that's an underestimate that's just three years. That's just what 3:32:43.360 --> 3:32:45.480 we know about. The actual total that they sunk into 3:32:45.600 --> 3:32:50.200 sort of like literally funding the Nigerian Army is enormous. Now, 3:32:50.240 --> 3:32:54.480 what's interesting here is that Shell does have its own 3:32:54.520 --> 3:32:57.040 security guards, but the ratio of what they spend in 3:32:57.080 --> 3:32:59.160 the Nigerian Army versus what they spend on their own 3:32:59.200 --> 3:33:02.400 security guards just two to one. And this goes to 3:33:02.520 --> 3:33:05.039 demonstrate the point that I've sort of been making this episode, right, 3:33:05.120 --> 3:33:08.560 which is that there's been a shift in you know, 3:33:08.720 --> 3:33:13.959 if you are a company like Shell, right who has 3:33:14.040 --> 3:33:17.480 a need, you know, who are horrifically exploiting a bunch 3:33:17.480 --> 3:33:19.160 of people to the point where you need to shoot 3:33:19.160 --> 3:33:21.760 them in order to keep them in line. Instead of 3:33:21.879 --> 3:33:25.280 going to like a private detective agency or having your 3:33:25.320 --> 3:33:28.760 own army, they are increasingly simply funding the state. And 3:33:29.280 --> 3:33:31.800 you know this means that right again again, instead of 3:33:31.800 --> 3:33:36.840 the Pinkertons, the actual trigger pullers are cops. They are 3:33:36.920 --> 3:33:41.000 the police, There are the military, they're weird special forces groups. 3:33:41.760 --> 3:33:46.120 And you know where that sort of leaves space for 3:33:46.200 --> 3:33:50.520 groups like the Pinkertons now is the area that's left 3:33:50.560 --> 3:33:53.440 for them is in corporate intelligence. And this seems to 3:33:53.560 --> 3:33:56.680 be most of what the Pinkertons have been up to recently. 3:33:57.600 --> 3:34:00.959 Amazon hired them in the last few years to work 3:34:01.000 --> 3:34:03.720 and to work with their intelligence division, the Global Security 3:34:03.800 --> 3:34:06.760 Operations Center, which they use to try to stomp out 3:34:06.840 --> 3:34:10.320 union organizing in their warehouses. And Amazon isn't just sort 3:34:10.360 --> 3:34:12.760 of spying on union organizers. 're spying on basically every 3:34:12.800 --> 3:34:15.600 social roupment they can get their hands on. Here's from WECE. 3:34:16.160 --> 3:34:19.720 In twenty nineteen, Amazon monitored the yellowfst movement known as 3:34:19.760 --> 3:34:23.000 the jele Jean, a grassroots uprising for economic justice spread 3:34:23.040 --> 3:34:26.640 across France, and solidarity movements in Vienna and protest against 3:34:26.640 --> 3:34:30.760 state repression in Iran. They've been deployed deployed against strikes 3:34:30.800 --> 3:34:34.400 of communication workers in West Virginia, Google and Facebook deploys 3:34:34.440 --> 3:34:38.080 them against their own employees to redout leakers. Now, this 3:34:38.280 --> 3:34:40.000 is all in line with the pivot of sort of 3:34:40.040 --> 3:34:44.560 corporate repression towards mass surveillance. Interestingly, the Pikersons have been 3:34:44.600 --> 3:34:46.800 planting stories in the press about going back to their 3:34:46.920 --> 3:34:50.879 roots as mercenaries, pitching themselves as you know, the force 3:34:50.959 --> 3:34:54.960 that could stop climate chaos with ex military forces. The 3:34:55.040 --> 3:34:57.600 company claims to have been deployed by corporations in Puerto 3:34:57.680 --> 3:35:00.520 Rico after the hurricane and after Hurricane ria antoin seventeen. 3:35:01.360 --> 3:35:06.640 I don't know if that's true. This is possible, but 3:35:06.840 --> 3:35:08.680 again it's something that they have to be very careful 3:35:08.720 --> 3:35:12.480 with the Pinkertons is that they are very, very brand obsessed, 3:35:12.520 --> 3:35:14.560 even though they're now owned by a different sort of 3:35:14.600 --> 3:35:19.800 Swedish security company, and they lie constantly, so it's very 3:35:19.840 --> 3:35:21.560 difficult to sort up sort of the myth from the 3:35:21.680 --> 3:35:23.880 fact when myth making has been such a vital part 3:35:23.920 --> 3:35:27.199 of their branding from the beginning. For another example, here's 3:35:27.240 --> 3:35:31.160 from a New York Times magazine. Among their most popular 3:35:31.280 --> 3:35:35.120 news services is the Pinkerton Dedicated Professional, in which agents 3:35:35.280 --> 3:35:38.080 join a client's company like any other new hire, allowing 3:35:38.120 --> 3:35:43.840 them to provide intel employees. By twenty eighteen, the agency 3:35:43.879 --> 3:35:47.200 said it could count among its clients about eighty percent 3:35:47.320 --> 3:35:51.240 of Fortune one thousand companies. Are these numbers correct? Who knows? 3:35:51.320 --> 3:35:54.320 They absolutely could be lying right. On the other hand, 3:35:55.840 --> 3:35:59.199 here's Gizmoto talking about the current reach of the Pinkertons 3:35:59.280 --> 3:36:02.680 in matchic together ring. There are other connections between Wizards 3:36:02.720 --> 3:36:06.000 of the Coast and the Pinkerton Agency. Robert M. Klemmick, 3:36:06.160 --> 3:36:09.080 who has been the director of Security Risk Management at Hasbro, Inc. 3:36:09.120 --> 3:36:11.760 Which is the parent company Wizards of the Coast for 3:36:11.879 --> 3:36:15.520 twelve years, was previously the director of supply chain Security 3:36:15.560 --> 3:36:19.440 Practice at Pinkerton Consulting in Investigations. The current manager of 3:36:19.480 --> 3:36:23.560 Global Investigations is also a form of Pinkerton Agents. So 3:36:23.920 --> 3:36:26.680 what we saw in the fact that you know, Wizards 3:36:26.720 --> 3:36:29.800 of the Coast said the Pinkertons after a guy who 3:36:30.160 --> 3:36:33.199 made a YouTube video showing some cards that he bought 3:36:33.280 --> 3:36:37.160 from someone else, is you know, you can see in 3:36:37.400 --> 3:36:39.840 that the arc of the arc of of what the 3:36:39.879 --> 3:36:42.520 Pinkers are trying to do. Right, You have, on the 3:36:42.640 --> 3:36:46.000 one hand, the Pinkertons falling back into their sort of 3:36:46.080 --> 3:36:51.120 intelligence role. You also have them specifically trading on their 3:36:51.160 --> 3:36:53.560 reputation to intimidate people. And you know, the reputation they 3:36:53.600 --> 3:36:59.000 acquired by killing unfathomable numbers of people between the eighteen hundreds, 3:36:59.200 --> 3:37:01.960 which they used the sort of intimidate people by just 3:37:02.000 --> 3:37:04.440 sort of the power of the reputation. You can see 3:37:04.480 --> 3:37:07.520 something very interesting, which is that the Pinkertons don't arrest 3:37:07.680 --> 3:37:10.200 Dan Cannon directly, right, they're able to leave with the 3:37:10.240 --> 3:37:14.200 sort of goods. But what they threatened Dan Cannon with 3:37:14.720 --> 3:37:17.960 is the regular police. And that is I think a 3:37:18.120 --> 3:37:21.240 very important aspect of what the story actually is, which 3:37:21.280 --> 3:37:24.279 is it's a story about the modern division of labor, 3:37:25.040 --> 3:37:29.640 of violence against people who corporations don't like, and that 3:37:29.760 --> 3:37:33.040 division of labor runs through security. You know, you have 3:37:33.160 --> 3:37:36.240 your major, you have a major corporation. That corporation has 3:37:36.280 --> 3:37:39.480 its own security division. That security division is connected to 3:37:39.520 --> 3:37:42.279 the Pinkertons. They use the Pinkertons as an intelligence network, 3:37:42.320 --> 3:37:45.960 and they have done several times now and then you know, 3:37:46.040 --> 3:37:50.720 when it comes time to you know, you can use 3:37:50.760 --> 3:37:52.640 the Pinkertons as like the people will stop you booth. 3:37:52.680 --> 3:37:54.920 But when it comes time to actually do violence against someone, 3:37:54.959 --> 3:37:58.160 when it comes time to arrest someone, that's the state's job. 3:37:59.160 --> 3:38:02.120 And that, I think is the thing that's that you know, 3:38:02.200 --> 3:38:05.480 that that's very important to understand about the way all 3:38:05.520 --> 3:38:08.720 of this stuff works is that the thing that is 3:38:08.840 --> 3:38:12.080 true now about the year twenty twenty three that was 3:38:12.160 --> 3:38:16.120 not true about the year like eighteen seventy three, is 3:38:16.200 --> 3:38:20.959 that the the sort of primary driver of corporate violence 3:38:21.240 --> 3:38:26.120 in you know, in in in the US and abroad 3:38:27.080 --> 3:38:30.480 is not necessarily private security companies. It is the state, 3:38:30.560 --> 3:38:34.039 and it is the police. And yeah, this has been naked. 3:38:34.080 --> 3:38:38.400 Happened here. The police suck acab get rid of them. 3:38:42.080 --> 3:38:45.240 Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 3:38:45.320 --> 3:38:47.880 from now until the heat death of the Universe. It 3:38:47.920 --> 3:38:50.160 Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. 3:38:50.400 --> 3:38:53.040 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:38:53.120 --> 3:38:55.320 cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 3:38:55.360 --> 3:38:58.760 iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 3:38:59.200 --> 3:39:01.320 You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 3:39:01.360 --> 3:39:04.400 monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. 3:39:04.600 --> 3:39:05.400 Thanks for listening.