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Speaker 1: America has two point two million people in prison. If

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Speaker 1: just one percent is wrong, that's twenty two thousand people.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot of people's lives destroyed.

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Speaker 2: If the system want to take you out of society,

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Speaker 2: they will do it no matter what laws they have

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Speaker 2: to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but

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Speaker 2: they're breaking the lord.

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Speaker 1: Having to hear those people say that I was guilty

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Speaker 1: of a crime that I did not commit, and then

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Speaker 1: hear my family break down behind me and not be

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Speaker 1: able to do anything about it. I can't describe the

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Speaker 1: crushing weight that was.

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Speaker 3: I'm not anti police, I'm just anti corruption.

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Speaker 2: A lot of times we look and we see something

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Speaker 2: happen to somebody, and that's the first thing we said,

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Speaker 2: that could never happen to me, But.

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Speaker 4: They can.

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Speaker 3: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. Today's

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Speaker 3: featured guest is Blaize Lobato, who only recently was freed

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Speaker 3: from prison after serving over sixteen years for a crime

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Speaker 3: she didn't commit.

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Speaker 5: July first, two thousand and one, a homeless man named

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Speaker 5: Duran Bailey was found brutally murdered. An eighteen year old

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Speaker 5: was found guilty of that crime. Lobata was sentenced to

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Speaker 5: thirteen to forty five years after being found guilty of

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Speaker 5: manslaughter in two thousand and six. At the crime scene

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Speaker 5: there were cigarette butts, chewing gum, bloody shoe prints, fingerprints,

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Speaker 5: pubic hair, and seamen.

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Speaker 1: Dozens of the items at the crime scene were never tested.

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Speaker 5: The family of Lobato and her supporters maintained it was

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Speaker 5: a botched police investigation in which DNA was never tested,

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Speaker 5: leeds were never followed, and more importantly, the family says

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Speaker 5: the savage killer or killers are still out there.

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Speaker 3: Blaze, welcome to the show. I'm sorry you're here.

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Speaker 4: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate that.

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Speaker 4: You know. I'm sorry as well, but it is what

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Speaker 4: it is.

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Speaker 3: And with Blaze are two of her attorneys, Innocence Project

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Speaker 3: staff attorneys Jane Boucher and Odd Non Sultan. Jane od Non.

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Speaker 6: Welcome, Hi, Hi, thank you for having us.

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Speaker 3: Glad to have you here. So Blaze, your story, even

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Speaker 3: among all the crazy stories that we cover on this show,

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Speaker 3: has elements that we've never heard about. And I want

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Speaker 3: to get right into it. Let's go back to your childhood.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you're still a child pretty much when all

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Speaker 3: this happens, you're still a teenager. But where did you

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Speaker 3: grow up? How did you grow up? How was your

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Speaker 3: life before the before the storm hit?

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Speaker 4: Well, I was born in Last Crisis, New Mexico. When

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Speaker 4: I was about two years old, my biological mother and

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Speaker 4: my father came to Las Vegas to begin their new

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Speaker 4: life together, and shortly thereafter things didn't work out in

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Speaker 4: their relationship. My mother took my father to court and

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Speaker 4: gained custody of me. When I was about five years old,

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Speaker 4: she took me to California where I was sexually abused

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Speaker 4: by her boyfriend for an extended period of time. And

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Speaker 4: because of that abuse, my dad got me back without

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Speaker 4: going through the courts.

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Speaker 3: How six nice Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 4: So from that point on we lived in Las Vegas.

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Speaker 4: You know, there were periods of feast and famine because

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Speaker 4: of my parents' lifestyle. At times, my father sold drugs

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Speaker 4: to support our family. And when that was the case,

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Speaker 4: everything was wonderful. We had everything, and when it wasn't,

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Speaker 4: you know, we were living on beans and rice for

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Speaker 4: months at a time. So my childhood was was you know,

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Speaker 4: it was tough. It was tough, and you know, when

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Speaker 4: my family would get too far over the edge, or

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Speaker 4: later on, when I started getting in trouble as a teenager,

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Speaker 4: they would ship me to Texas to be with my grandparents.

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Speaker 4: So it was kind of a back and forth game.

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Speaker 4: At some point, I think I was about ten or eleven,

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Speaker 4: my dad's drug abuse became so so bad that my

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Speaker 4: stepmom gave him an ultimatum that either they leave or

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Speaker 4: she would leave him. So we moved to a small

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Speaker 4: town in northern Nevada called Panaka, and it was very difficult.

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Speaker 4: It was a predominantly Mormon community and we stood out.

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Speaker 4: We were the outcasts, and it made it difficult for me.

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Speaker 4: So when I had junior high school, the only place

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Speaker 4: that I found acceptance was with the bad crowd, and

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Speaker 4: thus the drug abuse began.

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Speaker 3: Right, So you ended up getting involved and drugs, But

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Speaker 3: it's important to note that you were actually drug free

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Speaker 3: at the time that the criminal justice system collapsed inwards

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Speaker 3: on you. Yeah, okay, so you you got involved with drugs.

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Speaker 3: You were around drugs so much was probably almost inevitable.

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Speaker 4: Right when I was seventeen, I was raped by my

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Speaker 4: best friend's father, and it was at that point that

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Speaker 4: I decided never again and So when I was assaulted

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Speaker 4: in Las Vegas later and I escaped, I was so

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Speaker 4: proud of myself for being able to defend myself and

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Speaker 4: not be a victim yet again that I told everyone.

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Speaker 3: And by the way, that's not a story you hear

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Speaker 3: every day, right, You don't hear too many stories of

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Speaker 3: rapes going wrong unless somebody walks in on them, or

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Speaker 3: you know, there's a you know, there's some outside interference.

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Speaker 3: Otherwise people get trapped and some of them considers it

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Speaker 3: was likely just to survive. Right, So how did you

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Speaker 3: manage to escape this rapet to where was it?

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Speaker 4: It was at the Budget Suite on Boulder Highway and

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Speaker 4: Las Vegas.

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Speaker 3: How did it come about?

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Speaker 4: I was out late partying and I was leaving my

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Speaker 4: car and I got attacked in the parking lot and

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Speaker 4: I had a knife on me, and I fended off

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Speaker 4: the attack with a knife. I don't know what I

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Speaker 4: cut if I cut him, you know, I don't know

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Speaker 4: the extent of his injuries, obviously, but I was able

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Speaker 4: to get out from underneath him and get away, get

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Speaker 4: in my car and drive.

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Speaker 3: So he tried to rape you in the parking lot.

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Speaker 3: In the parking lot in the middle of the night,

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Speaker 3: in the middle of the night, so you got away

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Speaker 3: for once, for once, finally, and you're feeling sort of triumphant.

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Speaker 3: So you go home and you tell people about it,

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Speaker 3: because I mean, I'm excited to tell people about it

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Speaker 3: right now. So I imagine it would have been something

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Speaker 3: you would have been spreading the news.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I was. I was proud of myself. So things

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Speaker 4: got a little crazy after that. I continued the drug use,

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Speaker 4: and at some point I decided that that was not

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Speaker 4: the life that I wanted to live. So I left

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Speaker 4: Las Vegas and went back to Panaka to get clean.

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Speaker 4: And there was a little bit of back and forth

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Speaker 4: in there. I can't remember exactly the dates and times,

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Speaker 4: but I know that I came back to Vegas for

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Speaker 4: a very short period of time and called my dad

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Speaker 4: and made him come get me so that I could

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Speaker 4: leave again. And then actually, on the night of the

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Speaker 4: eighth was when I was going to go back to

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Speaker 4: Vegas again and try again and again without success, and

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Speaker 4: ended up back in Panaka. So when the homicide detective

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Speaker 4: showed up in my house, the first thing that they

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Speaker 4: said to me was, we know what happened to you

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Speaker 4: as a child. Because there was police reports and such,

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Speaker 4: so they were able to find it in their system

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Speaker 4: and they used that as a tool to manipulate me.

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Speaker 3: So how did they use that as a tool to

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Speaker 3: manipulate you?

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Speaker 4: At that point, I hadn't worked through the trauma, so

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Speaker 4: when they brought it up and they started asking questions,

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Speaker 4: it immediately shut me down and made me emotional. And

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Speaker 4: then they were like, we know you were attacked. They

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Speaker 4: acted like they were on my side. They asked me

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Speaker 4: three times, they questioned me through three times before they

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Speaker 4: ever recorded, and they didn't give me my Miranda rights

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Speaker 4: until after the fact, which you know, we never made

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Speaker 4: an issue of because it's neither here nor there. I mean,

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Speaker 4: it should have been maybe, but I don't have any

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Speaker 4: proof because I signed the Miranda card, so I can't

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Speaker 4: say it was before or it was after.

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Speaker 3: You know, when they started questioning you, did you know

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Speaker 3: what they were questioning you about?

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Speaker 4: No. I assumed that it was the situation I went through,

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Speaker 4: and I thought, oh, I must have really, you know,

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Speaker 4: it must have been a traumatic injury and it must

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Speaker 4: have killed the guy. I had no idea they were

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Speaker 4: talking about something else in another part of town at

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Speaker 4: another time, of the year. I had no idea.

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Speaker 3: How crazy, right, So you're having two different conversations at

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Speaker 3: the same time, and the.

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Speaker 4: Police never they never questioned me further to iron out

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Speaker 4: the discrepancies.

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Speaker 3: This is like surreal, right, they're actually questioning you about

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Speaker 3: a crime that you don't even know they're and you've

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Speaker 3: got this other thing in your head. There must be

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Speaker 3: like some very strange moments in that conversation.

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Speaker 6: Her statement is about the attack from budget suites. That's

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Speaker 6: what she's actually describing. And they had I mean, we

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Speaker 6: talked about this tunnel vision that they weren't willing to question,

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Speaker 6: like some of the things she said doesn't make sense.

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Speaker 4: Everything that was inconsistent. They just said, oh, she used drugs,

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Speaker 4: right and discounted it.

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Speaker 3: That's a catch all. And Jane to talk about that,

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Speaker 3: and I also like to get your just a summary

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Speaker 3: of this gruesome crime that they decided that she must

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Speaker 3: have been a suspect in, but they were questioning her

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Speaker 3: about something that was completely foreign to her.

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Speaker 7: Sure, So just to give a little bit of timeline,

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Speaker 7: you know, this crime, this person, Duran Bailey was the

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Speaker 7: name of the victim, was killed on July eighth and

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Speaker 7: on July twentieth, the police drive the three hours you know,

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Speaker 7: from Las Vegas to Panaka and basically bombard plays in

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Speaker 7: her home. It's sort of you know, her family home.

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Speaker 7: Put her in a room, you know, tell her parents

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Speaker 7: that they can't be in the room, close the doors,

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Speaker 7: and they start interrogating her about what she thinks, as

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Speaker 7: you just said, was something that happened two months earlier

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Speaker 7: when you were attacked and these this man tried to rape.

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Speaker 3: You, which was self defense exactly.

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Speaker 7: And you know when Blaze left the parking lot that

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Speaker 7: night and drove off and got away from this man,

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Speaker 7: the man was standing, you know, he was you know,

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Speaker 7: I think ripping his groin area and in pain. You know,

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Speaker 7: maybe there was a struggle, but he was alive, and

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Speaker 7: he was, you know, for someone who was going to

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Speaker 7: move on from this. The person who was a victim

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Speaker 7: in this case that she ultimately gets prosecuted for, was

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Speaker 7: brutalized so badly. There is no question that there could

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Speaker 7: be a confusion between the man that sexually assaulted her

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Speaker 7: and this person who ends up being victimized. He was

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Speaker 7: found with his penis completely severed five feet away from

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Speaker 7: his body. Both of his eyes were beaten shut to

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Speaker 7: the point that no one could even look inside them.

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Speaker 7: He had I think something like eighteen or nineteen gashes

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Speaker 7: all over his body. He had led out, you know,

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Speaker 7: entirely in a garbage dump, and he was completely covered

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Speaker 7: by garbage to the point where no one found him

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Speaker 7: for probably a few hours. So the scene where this

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Speaker 7: person is found is completely different than what Blaze describes

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Speaker 7: to the police during that interrogation. And I think one

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Speaker 7: of the most incredible things about this case is that

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Speaker 7: interrogation is recorded. There is a recording of it, there's

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Speaker 7: a transcription of that recording, and so we talk. I'm

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Speaker 7: sure you've talked in this podcast before about false confessions

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Speaker 7: and the importance of recording statements. The crazy thing here

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Speaker 7: is that statement was recorded, the police could review it,

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Speaker 7: the prosecutors could review it, and the tunnel vision was

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Speaker 7: so extreme that they didn't even see She's not talking.

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Speaker 7: She can't be talking about this assault, this person being killed.

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Speaker 7: She's talking about something that happened two months before.

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Speaker 3: What a bizarre set of circumstances. And the reason that

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Speaker 3: they came to what was the name of the town again, Panaka? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: not a place I've ever heard of before. I guess

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Speaker 3: most people haven't. But the reason they came there was

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Speaker 3: because somebody had mentioned to somebody else about you, having

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Speaker 3: said to them or a friend about this assault that

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Speaker 3: you survived by defending yourself, and they thought, well, if

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Speaker 3: this guy was cut with a knife somewhere near the

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Speaker 3: groin area, then you must be this crazy killer who

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Speaker 3: goes around cutting men's penises off and throwing them on

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Speaker 3: the street. I mean, this crime from what it sounds like.

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Speaker 3: I mean, people can't see you on the radio, but

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Speaker 3: you're not a giant, imposing figure. It sounds like whoever

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Speaker 3: did this was probably a very strong probably a man

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Speaker 3: can't say that for sure.

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Speaker 4: But well, you know, it's interesting that you brought that up,

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Speaker 4: because one of their own experts said that the crime

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Speaker 4: itself was inconsistent with a woman, and that, in fact,

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Speaker 4: because of the severity of the injuries, they wouldn't be

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Speaker 4: surprised if there was more than one perpetrator.

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Speaker 3: Well, and actually they overlooked what should have been an

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Speaker 3: obvious clue. Do you want to talk about that?

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Speaker 6: It's absurd. There was a woman who had actually been

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Speaker 6: attacked by mister Bailey a week or so before reported it.

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Speaker 4: It told the police where they could find him, and

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Speaker 4: they never did, so if they had, maybe he would

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Speaker 4: still be alive.

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Speaker 6: Most remarkable, I mean a sipham is that the day

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Speaker 6: the police where they're investigating and sort of at the scene,

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Speaker 6: she lived like right behind the dumpster era, there's like

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Speaker 6: an apartment complex. She comes to the scene and speaks

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Speaker 6: with the police officers and oh, is that Durant Bailey

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Speaker 6: who's dead, and tells them about this past incident with him.

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Speaker 6: I mean, it's right there for them to look into.

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Speaker 3: And there was more to that too, right there was.

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Speaker 7: She also tells the police that she has a number

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Speaker 7: of male friends who live kind of with her or

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Speaker 7: near her in this apartment complex, and that she had

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Speaker 7: told them about this attack, that she had been raped

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Speaker 7: by Duran Bailey, and you know that they were upset

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Speaker 7: by it and they had actually some of them apparently

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Speaker 7: had had issues with mister Bailey in the past. So

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Speaker 7: what appears at a crime scene like a crime that

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Speaker 7: is committed by at least one man with a weapon,

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Speaker 7: if not several. I mean, it seems like a gang beating.

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Speaker 6: Of sorts with a lot of anger, with a lot.

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Speaker 7: Of anger and a lot of power and a lot

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Speaker 7: of blood that somehow does not encourage the police to

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Speaker 7: investigate these men and to look into their backgrounds and

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Speaker 7: pursue them as suspects. Instead, the case is cold for

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Speaker 7: two weeks and when they get a phone call saying

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Speaker 7: from Panaka saying there's a girl up here talking about

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Speaker 7: an injury with the penis, They drive up there get

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Speaker 7: what they consider to be a confession, and that's it.

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Speaker 3: Did they never even talk to these three guys? No?

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Speaker 7: I mean, they claim that they made some cursory efforts

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Speaker 7: to look into their background, but they never spoke with them,

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Speaker 7: and there's.

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Speaker 4: No proof that they actually did that, right.

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Speaker 3: I mean, granted, maybe they didn't, maybe they didn't treat

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Speaker 3: it as a super high priority because he was a

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Speaker 3: homeless guy. But this was a vicious, terrible, gruesome crime

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Speaker 3: that it's not illogical to think that if someone has

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Speaker 3: the capability or some people have the capability of doing

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Speaker 3: that to this homeless man, he's probably not going to

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Speaker 3: be the last victim.

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Speaker 7: Absolutely, And when you think about all of the harms

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Speaker 7: that are compounded in this case, right, like, not only

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Speaker 7: was Blaize victimized two months before this, and she it

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Speaker 7: was you managed to escape, but you know, only by

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Speaker 7: her own strength and determination, not because of help by

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Speaker 7: the police. You then have this woman who's actually raped

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Speaker 7: by mister Bailey, the person who ultimately is killed and

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Speaker 7: the victim in this case, and the police never pursue him,

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Speaker 7: you know, and never go after him or try to

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Speaker 7: prosecute him against hers, and then he ends up falling.

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Speaker 3: Victim to vigilant, just exactly.

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Speaker 7: Because that's what has to step in to fix it.

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Speaker 3: So at no point did anybody in law enforcement get anything, right,

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Speaker 3: is that fair to say?

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Speaker 4: That's fair to say.

303
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Speaker 3: And meanwhile you're in the center of this and you

304
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Speaker 3: don't even know what the fuck is going on.

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Speaker 1: No, And.

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Speaker 4: The more along the way we found more and more

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Speaker 4: and more things out At the first trial, there were

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Speaker 4: so many things that weren't available to us. We didn't

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Speaker 4: know that there was pubic hairs found. We didn't know

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Speaker 4: that there was a rape kit dona and that none

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Speaker 4: of it had been tested. We didn't know that he

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Speaker 4: had cards in his pocket that indicate that he was

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Speaker 4: a police informant. We didn't know these things.

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Speaker 3: Wow, this is getting deeper and deeper, right.

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Speaker 4: So, I mean there was plenty of avenues for them

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Speaker 4: to pursue to investigate, and they did not.

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Speaker 3: Wow, so strange. I mean, it just doesn't And then

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Speaker 3: they just decide to drive three hours when all they

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Speaker 3: had to do was go next door. Instead of going

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Speaker 3: next door, they drove three hours and found you.

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Speaker 4: And it gets worse because you can clearly see the

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Speaker 4: malice behind their actions. It's illustrated very well in the

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Speaker 4: second trial when Detective thousand lied on the stand claiming

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Speaker 4: that his secretary did the investigation. We had no idea.

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Speaker 4: But it turns out detectives don't have secretaries, So who

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Speaker 4: did the investigation? Nobody exactly exactly and.

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Speaker 3: We don't even know which investigation which as well as

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Speaker 3: who knows well there was none, so it doesn't really matter.

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Speaker 3: He could have been refright to anything, right, but.

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Speaker 4: At the second trial we didn't have that information. There

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Speaker 4: was no way for us because when you're not a

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Speaker 4: part of their system, you don't know how it works.

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Speaker 4: You don't know what they have and what they don't have,

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Speaker 4: So how do you defend yourself against that?

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Speaker 3: I just it's it's so difficult for me to understand

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Speaker 3: why they would want to victimize a victim. Right, you're

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Speaker 3: a victim. I mean even we were a victim your

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Speaker 3: whole life to this point. They knew that, right. It's

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Speaker 3: just so it's so weird to me how the morality

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Speaker 3: breaks down so totally.

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Speaker 7: I think one thing in this case is, you know,

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Speaker 7: Blaize wasn't living in Las Vegas. She was living three

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Speaker 7: hours north in a tiny town, which I think in

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Speaker 7: the trial got painted as a place that's really different

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Speaker 7: from where we live in Las Vegas. You know, listen

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Speaker 7: jury members to what I'm saying. She's not one of us.

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Speaker 7: She's from a different place, and she's a teenager. We're

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Speaker 7: going to paint her as wild and drug addicted and

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Speaker 7: different and the kind of person that we don't want

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Speaker 7: in our community. I think the prosecution did a really effective,

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Speaker 7: evil job of painting her as this wild child who

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Speaker 7: we just want to make sure we can punish and

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Speaker 7: keep off our streets. And there was a lot of othering,

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Speaker 7: and that's a huge part of I think what the

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Speaker 7: criminal justice system does generally is to make people seem

356
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Speaker 7: like Pariah's when you know, in fact, she was never

357
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Speaker 7: investigated and they didn't look clearly into the case. But

358
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Speaker 7: I think she was really hurt by the fact that

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Speaker 7: she wasn't from Las Vegas, and they knew about her

360
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Speaker 7: drug issues at the time and were able to just

361
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Speaker 7: use that as a character assassination as opposed to an

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Speaker 7: actual prosecution.

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Speaker 3: Do you think that the prosecutor knew that he was

364
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Speaker 3: prosecuting a cent woman?

365
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Speaker 4: Absolutely, and in fact, I'm not the first person that

366
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Speaker 4: he did it too.

367
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Speaker 6: And their theory at trial was that Blaize left Panaka

368
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Speaker 6: in the early morning hours ago find drugs. She went

369
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Speaker 6: all the way to Las Vegas to do that, which

370
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Speaker 6: is three hours away.

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Speaker 3: Because there's nowhere in between Panaca and right so you could.

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Speaker 6: Get drub and that, of all the places in Las

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Speaker 6: Vegas to get drugs, she went to this behind the

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Speaker 6: bank across the street from the Palms Hotel, which is

375
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Speaker 6: like off the street. It exist, it didn't even it's

376
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Speaker 6: actually being built at the time. And then she met

377
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,920
Speaker 6: this man who she's never met. I mean, this was uncontract.

378
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Speaker 6: There were strangers. She meets this guy, mister Bailey, and

379
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Speaker 6: mister Bailey in exchange for drugs, wanted a sexual favor,

380
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Speaker 6: and that Blaze flipped out and cut his penis off

381
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Speaker 6: and killed him. Brutally murdered him, then hopped into her

382
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Speaker 6: car and high tailed it back to Panaka three hours away.

383
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Speaker 6: When I was there a thing and no one, no

384
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Speaker 6: one in their office, was like, hmm, does this make sense?

385
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Speaker 6: Maybe this is not quite right.

386
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Speaker 3: Maybe there should be some blood in the car, or

387
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,479
Speaker 3: there should be some leather evidence of biological level. This

388
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:43,320
Speaker 3: is just not how people.

389
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Speaker 6: This is insane, Like no one does this, and that

390
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Speaker 6: maybe there's someone else who lives in Las Vegas who

391
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,960
Speaker 6: committed this car and maybe that's a more likely explanation

392
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Speaker 6: for what happened. I mean, that's what you do as

393
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Speaker 6: a lawyer, right, You look at a case, you analyze

394
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Speaker 6: the faction, think what makes sense, what doesn't make sense.

395
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Speaker 6: And they're the prosecution. They don't have to go to

396
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Speaker 6: trial in these cases. They chose to go to trial

397
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Speaker 6: on these sets of facts, like their job is to

398
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Speaker 6: do justice. They don't inherent cases like defense attorneys and

399
00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:11,639
Speaker 6: have to defend someone to make best what they do.

400
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Speaker 6: They choose the theory they go forward with. And the

401
00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:17,919
Speaker 6: fact that no one, not a district attorney, not the

402
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,040
Speaker 6: district attorney, looked at this case said you know what,

403
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Speaker 6: this doesn't make sense.

404
00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:24,480
Speaker 3: Is really scary.

405
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Speaker 4: Well, in addition to that, the original DA had a

406
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Speaker 4: discussion with my attorney at the time, who was Phil Cone,

407
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Speaker 4: and he put a deal of three years on the

408
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Speaker 4: table and I was like, absolutely not. I'm not taking that.

409
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Speaker 4: I didn't do it.

410
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,000
Speaker 3: At this point, you probably still I.

411
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,840
Speaker 4: Believed in the justice system. I thought everything would would

412
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Speaker 4: work out a trial.

413
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Speaker 3: You know.

414
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Speaker 4: I had no idea that the prosecution was going to

415
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,200
Speaker 4: use smoke and mirrors on their own science and try

416
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Speaker 4: and paint it to the jury that there was evidence

417
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:55,280
Speaker 4: that wasn't there. Like, for instance, when they did the

418
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Speaker 4: luminol and phenal failing test on my car, they got

419
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,240
Speaker 4: a reaction, it was a false positive. They did the

420
00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,280
Speaker 4: hemoglobin test, which is what actually determines if it's blood,

421
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,600
Speaker 4: and it was negative, but they painted it to the

422
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,280
Speaker 4: jury like there was something there when there was nothing there.

423
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Speaker 6: That's just to put context. That's what you were talking about, Jason,

424
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Speaker 6: that there should be blood in her car.

425
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Speaker 3: Right.

426
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Speaker 6: They ran these tests that they had an expert to

427
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Speaker 6: testify about, these sorts of tests that confirmed the existence

428
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Speaker 6: of blood. As Blay says, they came up negative. There

429
00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,159
Speaker 6: was a false positive, but they inferred they left this

430
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Speaker 6: insinuation that she tried to clean up the blood with

431
00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:34,440
Speaker 6: bleach or something like.

432
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Speaker 3: That, right, But then Luminaul would show the bleach. I mean,

433
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,399
Speaker 3: you can't hide bleach. You can't have it both ways, right, you.

434
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Speaker 6: Can't say twist the science, right, which at some point,

435
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,359
Speaker 6: when you look at the facts, you're like, nothing's adding

436
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 6: up here. Maybe the conclusion is she didn't do it,

437
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 6: rather than well, that doesn't fit our theory, that doesn't

438
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 6: fit our narrative.

439
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,639
Speaker 3: No, they went with, maybe we can convince the jury

440
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 3: that she did do it, even though we know she

441
00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,399
Speaker 3: didn't do it. It hurts me to think of the

442
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,679
Speaker 3: fact that so much of it was avoidable, and so

443
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 3: much of it was willful, but it happened. It's reality,

444
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,480
Speaker 3: and it's your reality. And so do you finally go

445
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,920
Speaker 3: to trial? Right, And I'm assume you were held in

446
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:11,119
Speaker 3: jail awaiting trial.

447
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,679
Speaker 4: I was in jail for several months and then I

448
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,480
Speaker 4: was able to post bail and bey on house arrest.

449
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,199
Speaker 3: So okay, a period of time that went by and

450
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 3: finally it's time for the trial. And how long was

451
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:23,680
Speaker 3: your trial?

452
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 4: The first trial was two weeks.

453
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,199
Speaker 3: So it's a long trial. That taxpayer expense. So when

454
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 3: the jury went out, how long did they deliverate for.

455
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,200
Speaker 4: I believe the first time was five hours.

456
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 3: And now you had seen a lot of the dark

457
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,679
Speaker 3: sides of the justice system, did you still believe that

458
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,400
Speaker 3: you would be declared innocent and free?

459
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,640
Speaker 4: By that point? I was afraid because I had seen

460
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:50,920
Speaker 4: their maneuvers, and I had seen the way that things

461
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 4: were taking shape, and I had seen, you know, my defense,

462
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,439
Speaker 4: and I just I felt like the odds were stacked

463
00:22:58,440 --> 00:22:58,879
Speaker 4: against me.

464
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 3: They were, for sure, you know. And then the jury

465
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 3: comes back in and what was that moment? Like, well,

466
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,119
Speaker 3: you had said so many terrible moments in your young life,

467
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,639
Speaker 3: but this moment must have been just as devastating as

468
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 3: it could be.

469
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,439
Speaker 4: I mean, there were several devastating moments, you know. The

470
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 4: most horrific for me was actually when I first got

471
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 4: arranged and they handed me a sheet of paper that

472
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 4: said they reserved the right to pursue the death penalty.

473
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,439
Speaker 4: That was a moment that I will never forget. I

474
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:34,920
Speaker 4: had a physical reaction where I felt so sick, and

475
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 4: I think my heart stopped beating for a moment, and

476
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 4: I was just so overwhelmed, Like I could not believe

477
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 4: that this was happening to me. And when the jury

478
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 4: came back and found me guilty, it was a similar feeling.

479
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 4: And I remember looking back because my family had been

480
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 4: subpoena so they weren't allowed to be in the courtroom

481
00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,200
Speaker 4: with me, so I was completely alone. I looked back

482
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,400
Speaker 4: he was finally able to be there, and I saw

483
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,919
Speaker 4: my dad and he was green. He was green, and

484
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 4: he was crying. And all I could do was just

485
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 4: hold myself together because I didn't want to break down

486
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 4: in front of them and make it even worse for them.

487
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 3: Now we hear that from others who've been through your

488
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 3: situation as well. It's so amazing that you feel that

489
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 3: you need to be strong for other people when the

490
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 3: whole earth just opened up and swallowed you. Right, But

491
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 3: that says a lot about your character. So then you're

492
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 3: convicted and sentenced to.

493
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 4: Forty two one hundred years at nineteen years.

494
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,680
Speaker 3: Old, So essentially now you've been given a life sentence

495
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 3: and off you go to prison, right? And where were

496
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 3: you in prison?

497
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 4: At FMWCC in Las Vegas?

498
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 3: And is that as bad as it sounds, It's.

499
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 4: Not wonderful, you know, it's not the Hilton. No, it's

500
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 4: not the Ritz Carlton.

501
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 3: How did you survive sixteen plus years in that situation?

502
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,680
Speaker 3: And if you can remember any happy moment, if there

503
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 3: was a happy moment in prison, and what was the

504
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 3: worst moment while you were there?

505
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 4: Oh, there were absolutely happy moments. I encountered some really

506
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 4: beautiful people while I was in there, and I encountered

507
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 4: some really horrible people. You know, it's like anywhere you go,

508
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,360
Speaker 4: there's good and there's bad. But there were some experiences

509
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 4: that I had that were unique in that I had

510
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 4: a jailhouse snitch that had testified against me in the

511
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 4: first trial. I had never spoken to her. I didn't

512
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,199
Speaker 4: even know who she was when she got on the stand,

513
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 4: but they pulled phone records and apparently she was somebody

514
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 4: that had had taken advantage of my kindness and came

515
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 4: to me at the phones and asked for a three

516
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 4: way call, and I gave it to her. But I

517
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 4: had no idea who she was. So she read about

518
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 4: me in the paper. She called the DA's office, and

519
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:52,439
Speaker 4: I presume that there was an exchange of information to

520
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 4: help her testify. So she got to prison before me.

521
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,120
Speaker 4: I had to deal with seeing her everywhere. First thing

522
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 4: she did was say that she was afraid for her life.

523
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 4: So the warden pulled me into an office and told

524
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 4: me that he was going to transfer me to another state.

525
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 4: I begged him, literally begged him. I said, listen, I'm

526
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 4: in appeals. I don't care about her. And he made

527
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 4: it very clear. He said, if I had any issues

528
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,160
Speaker 4: with her whatsoever, they would ship me out of there

529
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 4: so fast they would make my head spin. And at

530
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 4: that time, I didn't want to be shipped out because

531
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 4: I wanted to be able to see my family and

532
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,719
Speaker 4: my friends. So I had to see her everywhere. And here,

533
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:31,879
Speaker 4: you know, in a roundabout way, all the lies that

534
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 4: she was telling to justify her actions, because it was

535
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 4: in the newspaper that she was a snitch, and so

536
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 4: she was telling everybody that she was my friend from

537
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 4: the streets and that I had taken her to the

538
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 4: crime scene and all this crazy shit to justify her

539
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 4: actions to everyone else.

540
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 3: Wow, and can we talk for a minute about jail

541
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 3: house snitches and how pernisious this whole practice is.

542
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, it's so easy for them. It's so easy

543
00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 4: for them to seize an opportunity to try and get

544
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 4: less time. You know, they lie, they cheat, they still

545
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 4: it doesn't matter. They don't have morals or ethics. They'll

546
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 4: do whatever it takes not to go to prison or

547
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 4: to be there for less time.

548
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,719
Speaker 3: It's so weird. Everybody knows you can't bribe a witness, right,

549
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 3: Anybody who watches TV, anyone who's been to eighth grade

550
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 3: knows you can't bribe a witness. But the government can,

551
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 3: and they can bribe them with the best thing you

552
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 3: can imagine, which is get out of jail free cards, right,

553
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 3: and how that can be used in court is nuts.

554
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 3: When you have such an obvious motive to lie, it's right,

555
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 3: but it happens a lot of it happened to you,

556
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 3: and then you had to live with this woman, So Jesus,

557
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 3: I mean, that's that ain't great, And it's not at.

558
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 7: All surprising that you know, in about seventeen percent of

559
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 7: post conviction DNA exonerations, snitch testimony played a role.

560
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 4: That's a huge.

561
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 7: Amount, you know, and there are probably many more cases

562
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 7: than that, but you know, in terms of the cases

563
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 7: where DNA testing has led to an exoneration, about seventeen

564
00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 7: percent of those have involved snitch testimony.

565
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 3: You went through a second trial. Let's just talk about

566
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 3: that for a minute, and if you could explain the

567
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 3: chronology of this, right, So, because you had multiple trials, I.

568
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 4: Did, and I won my first appeal based on the

569
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 4: perjury of the jail house snitch because we were able

570
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 4: to prove that she perjured her testimony. And so I

571
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,919
Speaker 4: was granted an appeal, granted a new trial based on

572
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,679
Speaker 4: those grounds, and sent back for a retrial. And basically

573
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 4: they said any other issues that we had stated, we

574
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 4: could remedy and retrial. However, we went back to the

575
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 4: same judge and the same prosecutors and they pulled the

576
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 4: same shit, so we were in the same boat. In

577
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 4: addition to that, Michelle had mortgaged her house and second

578
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 4: mortgage actually to finance Tony Sarah out of California to

579
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 4: represent me. Unfortunately, he got indicted for tax evasion and

580
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 4: so we were given two less experienced attorneys from his

581
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 4: office and they were going to work in conjunction with

582
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 4: the Special Public Defender's office in order to work under

583
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 4: his license and to help finance experts and such. It

584
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 4: was a rough, rough, rough time because everything that my

585
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 4: female attorneys out of California suggested or tried to strive

586
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 4: for in regards to expert testimony, was blocked by the

587
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 4: special public defender because he didn't want to finance them.

588
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 3: So wait, so your own attorney blocked.

589
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, he was like, Oh, we don't need that, we

590
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 4: don't need that, We'll be fine. Everything the girls suggested,

591
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 4: he shut it down.

592
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 6: I don't know if it's clear. Tony Sarah is a

593
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 6: legendary defense attorney out from California who I guess has

594
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 6: issues paying taxes and didn't pay his taxes the time

595
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 6: they hired him and was indicted.

596
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 3: For tax fraud.

597
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 6: But I guess let two of his younger associates continue

598
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 6: to work on Blaze's case, and those were the I

599
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 6: guess the two female lawyers had Blaze referring to It.

600
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 3: Sounds like they were trying to do the right thing

601
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 3: as well.

602
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 4: They were, but at the same time, like he was

603
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 4: the more experienced attorney and they deferred to his judgment.

604
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 4: So it was a tough situation. I begged him to

605
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 4: get all of all of the evidence tested for DNA,

606
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 4: and he said it wasn't until that point that he

607
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 4: even believed in my innocence. And they still to this

608
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 4: day have never tested all of the evidence.

609
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 3: So you survived somehow? This I mean it was really

610
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 3: half almost half of your life in prison. I mean

611
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 3: you were eighteen when you were arrested, right, and you

612
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 3: were in for sixteen plus years and half of your

613
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 3: life maxim security prison. And then what happened? How did

614
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 3: you find? Well? How did you find the strength to survive?

615
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 3: Is one question. The second question is how did you

616
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 3: get in contact with the lawyers who ultimately freed you?

617
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 3: And who is your angel in all this whole situation?

618
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 4: Well, Michelle Ravelle is my angel. She has become my mom.

619
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 4: She has been my staunchest supporter and my biggest advocate.

620
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 4: She has fought for me tirelessly. She has put in

621
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 4: so many hours of time and energy and given me

622
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 4: so much love.

623
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 3: How did you find how did you first get in

624
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:41,479
Speaker 3: contact with her?

625
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 5: Actually?

626
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 4: I dated her son at one point before all of

627
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 4: this happened, and I continued the relationship through my stints

628
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 4: of freedom in between my.

629
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 3: Trials, when you're on house arrest and stuff.

630
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 4: When I was on house arrest, and then later when

631
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 4: I was on bail for my second trial.

632
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 3: But even still, you know, one would sort of assume

633
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 3: that once you get sent away, those things fade, right,

634
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 3: and they do. I mean, but she didn't fade.

635
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 4: She did not fade.

636
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 3: If anything, the opposite, right. It sounds like she, like

637
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 3: like a lot of us, she got mad and decided

638
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 3: to do something about it. And she's here in the

639
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 3: studio today and maybe we'll have a little cameo appearance

640
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 3: from her a little while. But so she became your rock, yes,

641
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,479
Speaker 3: And I love talking about that because it's inspiring and

642
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 3: she deserves a ton of credit for that, and I

643
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 3: see how emotionally you get talking about her. But it's

644
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 3: important also to talk about it because of the fact

645
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 3: that our listeners out there need to know that you

646
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 3: can make a difference, right, even though a lot of

647
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 3: people say, well what can I do? I don't know

648
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 3: what to do? You can make it different.

649
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 4: Just be there, listen, spread the word.

650
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 3: I mean, everybody seems like, you know, there's probably you know,

651
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 3: social scientists estimates is probably one hundred thousand innocent people

652
00:32:59,320 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 3: in prison.

653
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 6: And Michelle's not just I mean, she's been like sort

654
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 6: of an emotional support for Blaze, but she's also done

655
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 6: a lot of advocacy on behalf of Blaze during the

656
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 6: sort of the appeals process, and she's been talking about

657
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 6: how we're sort of talking about people listen, they don't

658
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 6: know what to do, and I think she was in

659
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 6: a similar position. And she started off put a website

660
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 6: together about Blaze's case and what was going on with Blaze,

661
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 6: and drummed up some support with that and has social

662
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 6: media's advance. With Facebook, she got a Facebook page with

663
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 6: about Blaze's case and has garnered a lot of support. Unfortunately,

664
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 6: like you know, after convictions and trials happened, cases and

665
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 6: people fade away and people forget. And I think Michelle,

666
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 6: to her credit, really wouldn't let anyone forget about Blaze.

667
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 3: Now.

668
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 4: She herself and she's come up with all kinds of

669
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 4: clever ideas. She had t shirts made with my face

670
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 4: on it that said what if this was your daughter?

671
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 4: To spread the word, she did stickers, any any little

672
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 4: idea that she thought might help ran with it.

673
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 3: And that's again, if you're listening, you know these are

674
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 3: things you can do, I mean, just talk about it.

675
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 3: Do you think without Michelle's help you would have ever

676
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 3: gotten out?

677
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 4: Absolutely not. I would have served every day of my sons.

678
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 4: Probably the original sentence.

679
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 3: So there you go. So then somehow or other, the

680
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 3: Innocence Project got a hold of your case.

681
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 4: Yes, Vannison's project first got involved offering to pay to

682
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 4: have all of the items tested at any lab that

683
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 4: Nevada chose, and Nevada repeatedly said no, despite petitions, despite

684
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 4: you know whatever, they said, no, no, no, no, no,

685
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 4: they wouldn't do it.

686
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 7: What year was this, I think it was around twenty

687
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 7: ten when the first consulting, and there was some back

688
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,320
Speaker 7: and forth over a couple of years, and when the

689
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 7: Innocence Project when we came on as a team, so

690
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,720
Speaker 7: with Vanessa Potkin, the director of post conviction Litigation myself,

691
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 7: odd none came on in full force. Was after the

692
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 7: Nevada Supreme Court remanded Blaze's case for an evidentiary hearing

693
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 7: having to do with issues around time of death and entomology,

694
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 7: which will I'm sure get into more in a minute.

695
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 7: But so, even though the Innocence Projects had come on

696
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 7: to consult and agreed to pay for some testing to

697
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 7: try to get more DNA testing done, there had been

698
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,399
Speaker 7: a lot of roadblocks on that path, and so we

699
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 7: ultimately were able to exonerate her, not through DNA testing,

700
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 7: but through this evidentiary hearing that we had about six

701
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 7: months ago at this point, Okay.

702
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 6: I just make one point because I do think Blaze's

703
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 6: comments about her public defender not willing to test items

704
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 6: for budgetary reasons, that's certainly played out to be the

705
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 6: wrong choice. But I do think it highlights issues of

706
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 6: public defenders not being funded properly to sort of properly

707
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 6: work up cases all over the country where I think

708
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 6: there is a need to sort of even out the

709
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 6: playing field so that people can be properly defended who

710
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,439
Speaker 6: don't have the funds to get the best lawyers up there.

711
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 3: Sure, because if we are the public, right, everyone is

712
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 3: the public. I mean, it sounds like I think there's

713
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 3: a little disconnect when people don't realize that this could

714
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 3: actually be you, and if these changes aren't made and

715
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 3: you end up in that situation, you could be the

716
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 3: next Blaze Levato.

717
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 7: And an additional issue too that I think played out

718
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 7: in Blaze's case as well, is DNA testing is not

719
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,240
Speaker 7: always going to be the thing that can prove someone's innocence.

720
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,359
Speaker 7: In most cases, it isn't you know, there are other

721
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 7: avenues that need to be pursued. And so I think

722
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 7: because of the power of these post conviction DNA exonerations

723
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 7: and the age of innocence that we're living in, I

724
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 7: think there's sometimes a false idea that that's always going

725
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 7: to be able to solve it. And there are people

726
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 7: who are really trying to get back into court to

727
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 7: fight their convictions and just don't have a way to

728
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 7: do that because DNA either didn't play a role in

729
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 7: their case, or they did some testing and it didn't

730
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 7: lead to clear results that could lead to an exoneration.

731
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,359
Speaker 7: And so it's really because the Nevada Supreme Court took

732
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 7: her habeas petition very seriously and found issues that merited

733
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 7: a post conviction evidentiary hearing that we're here today and

734
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,359
Speaker 7: those issues didn't have to do with DNA in this case,

735
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 7: which is a unique thing.

736
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 4: For our project.

737
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,720
Speaker 3: Yes, second trial you end up with the same people

738
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 3: from the first trial, which also strikes me as not perfect,

739
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 3: you know, because they're coming in with a bias, I mean,

740
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 3: not great, and so the results are somewhat predictable. You know.

741
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 3: You now have the additional problem, like you said, of

742
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 3: a public defender who's almost we've heard this story Unfortunately,

743
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 3: too many times a public defender who's not acting in

744
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 3: your best interest in this case for budgetary reasons. What

745
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 3: the fuck budgetary reasons when you're talking about somebody's life.

746
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,839
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just like, uh, yeah, I don't know.

747
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 3: That's not okay either. And just for context, I mean,

748
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 3: this crime happened in two thousand and one, so we're

749
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 3: not talking twenty to ten and out here we are

750
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:51,280
Speaker 3: in twenty eighteen. Ultimately, who reached out to the MS Project?

751
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 3: What was that like when you How did you find

752
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 3: out that we were coming to the rescue.

753
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 4: Well, that's all thanks to Michelle Revel again my mom.

754
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 4: She reached out to them. I found out. I think

755
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 4: I found out on my birthday.

756
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 3: How did you find out? Did Michelle tell you? Did

757
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 3: you get a letter over the phone from MICHELLEP? So

758
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 3: Michelle got the letter? Yep. And then what was your reaction?

759
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:22,919
Speaker 4: Cautiously optimistic? You know, at that point I couldn't afford

760
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 4: to get my hopes too high because I still had

761
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 4: to survive on the inside.

762
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 3: What year was that, twenty sixteen, sixteen? So actually this

763
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 3: case moved quickly by our standards, ye, because it usually

764
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 3: takes longer and you've been out now for how long?

765
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 4: Sixty three days?

766
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:46,879
Speaker 3: Sixty three days? Wow? Amazing. So you got your day

767
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 3: in court again, right, third time around, third times the

768
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 3: charm right.

769
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 4: Although this time it was for an evident you're hearing,

770
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:54,280
Speaker 4: not a trial.

771
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 3: I want to capture that moment.

772
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 4: Well, I finally got a different judge and I only

773
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 4: had one of my original prosecutors to deal with. So

774
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 4: I was feeling optimistic about those two things off top,

775
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 4: not to mention that I had the dream team. So

776
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 4: as things were going and I saw the response of

777
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 4: the judge, and I listened to all the testimony from

778
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 4: the experts, and I compared both sides, I felt really good.

779
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 4: But I was so scared to get my hopes up

780
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 4: because I know how the system works, or at least

781
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 4: had worked for me up until that point, and I

782
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 4: was terrified to get too excited about it because I

783
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 4: didn't want to be devastated, you know.

784
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,839
Speaker 3: And from your perspective, Jane, I know you were both

785
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 3: in the courtroom. Yes, yes, And what was your feeling.

786
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 3: Obviously it's always difficult to me if you're feeling optimistic,

787
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 3: you're not going to share that with Blaze. Because for

788
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 3: the same reasons we're talking about, right, But did you

789
00:39:58,160 --> 00:39:59,240
Speaker 3: know you had a winning hand?

790
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 7: I think we went in there confident, knowing that we

791
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:07,320
Speaker 7: were very well prepared, that we had some incredible experts

792
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 7: on our side, people who were really smart scientists who

793
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 7: had looked at her case and had objectively determined individually

794
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 7: on their own that there is no way that Blaize

795
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,800
Speaker 7: Lobado could have committed this crime based on objective signs

796
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 7: of the victim's body. So the issue at the evident

797
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 7: you're hearing had to do with time of death, which

798
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 7: was a crucial issue at both of her trials, because

799
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 7: Blaize had very solid alibi evidence putting her in Panaka

800
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 7: for almost the entire day of July eighth. R. Duran

801
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 7: Bailey's body is found around ten oh eight pm on

802
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 7: July eighth. Almost that whole day up until the early

803
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,840
Speaker 7: morning of July eighth, Blaize had alibi evidence putting her

804
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 7: three hours away in Panaca, and so the state's theory

805
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 7: had been that she had committed this crime in the

806
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,879
Speaker 7: very early morning hours of July eighth, sometime around one

807
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 7: or two in the morning, because that's the only way

808
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 7: it could have happened, because they conceded that she was

809
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 7: with family and friends three hours away the rest of

810
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 7: the day. And so our experts looked at photographs and

811
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 7: the autopsy report and many other reports related to the

812
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,399
Speaker 7: case and determined, based on how this body had decomposed,

813
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 7: and also the total lack of bug activity on the body,

814
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 7: the fact that there were no insects, no larvae whatsoever,

815
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 7: that this person could have only been dead for probably

816
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 7: a few hours at most, if not less. And the

817
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 7: reason that was so significant is because that means factually, objectively,

818
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 7: Blaze could not have committed this crime something she always knew,

819
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 7: something we knew because we believed in her innocence, but

820
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 7: this showed scientifically that she couldn't have done this. So

821
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 7: our hearing had to do with putting on a forensic pathologist,

822
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 7: a man named doctor Andrew Baker, and three forensic entomologists,

823
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 7: doctor Gail Anderson, doctor Robert Kimsey, and doctor Jeffrey Tomberlin

824
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 7: to talk about first of all, how bodies decompose and

825
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 7: how this was a body that couldn't have been at

826
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 7: this crime scene for that long, and then also how

827
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 7: insects are attracted to decomposing bodies, and the fact that

828
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 7: there was no bug activity on this per means he

829
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 7: couldn't have been there for very long.

830
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 3: And we know bugs like dumpsters too.

831
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 4: Yes, not to mention that it was July and vegas,

832
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 4: which changes the decomposition process because of the temperature and

833
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 4: attracts more bucks, right, and.

834
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 6: The body was so brutally beaten that it was sort

835
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 6: of ripe for insect activity because there was blood, lots

836
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 6: of cuts. That's the sort of thing that insects are

837
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 6: attracted to. And so just to add on to a chance,

838
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 6: I think the other thing that gave us confidence during

839
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 6: the hearing was and Blaze sort of alluded to this

840
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 6: about the judge, was that the judge was sort of

841
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,399
Speaker 6: asking the right questions and picking up on the right

842
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:42,479
Speaker 6: issues and seemed to be getting what we were sort

843
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,799
Speaker 6: of arguing and presenting, which I think made us feel that, Okay,

844
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 6: she's thinking about this the way we are thinking about it,

845
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 6: and that's a that's a good sign.

846
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 3: And so the moment comes the arguments are done, you

847
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 3: know now that you've presented a very strong case with

848
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 3: as you said, the dream team, and now you're going

849
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 3: through this again. The moment, right, and what was that moment?

850
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 4: Like, it's really terrible to have your life hanging in

851
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 4: the balance and to have to wait for the answer

852
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 4: and not know which way it's going to go.

853
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 3: So this was a hearing in front of a judge.

854
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,880
Speaker 3: But how did that work? So the arguments were finished,

855
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 3: prosecutors says whatever they said, You guys said, whatever you said,

856
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 3: and then how long do you have to wait for

857
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 3: the judge to rule?

858
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:36,240
Speaker 6: So the timeline was that we had the hearing middle

859
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 6: of October. We submitted post hearing briefs to sort of

860
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 6: make our arguments in writing. That we submitted November one,

861
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 6: I think was the deadline, and then the judge came

862
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 6: down with the decision granting us a new trial. That

863
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 6: I was saying that we won the hearing right before Christmas,

864
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 6: So right before Christmas we knew that we were going

865
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 6: to have a new trial, and that the sort of

866
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 6: in the prosecutor's court whether or not they actually wanted

867
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 6: to have a third trial on this or whether or

868
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,399
Speaker 6: not that we're going to dismiss the charges. Same prosecutor, yes,

869
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:11,400
Speaker 6: same office.

870
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 7: And I think something that's particularly important to know here is,

871
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 7: you know, we got the email decision from the judge

872
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 7: saying that the charges you know that we should be

873
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 7: granted a new trial, that they found that it was

874
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 7: an effective assistance of counsel not to call forensic entomologists

875
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 7: and pathologists to prove what the time of death would

876
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,800
Speaker 7: have been in this case. We couldn't reach our client

877
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,800
Speaker 7: at the prison. You know, it took us several days

878
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 7: to be able to communicate this really exciting news to

879
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,800
Speaker 7: her that her conviction had been vacated and she'd be

880
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 7: granted a new trial. It's not because people at the

881
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 7: prison couldn't have gotten the message to her.

882
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 4: It's not because she was.

883
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 7: Hard to reach. They know where she is at all times.

884
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 7: It's because nobody wanted to communicate that to her, and

885
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 7: so it took probably about forty eight hours before we

886
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 7: could actually have a conversation with her. And this is

887
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 7: right around the holidays. Obviously we want to get her

888
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 7: this good news. So just the inhumanity that she had

889
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 7: to deal with on a daily basis and the anxiety

890
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:05,399
Speaker 7: of not knowing what's going to happen with her life

891
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 7: is incredible.

892
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:08,800
Speaker 4: Do you know how I found out that the charges

893
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:09,720
Speaker 4: had business missed?

894
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 3: No, I would love to know.

895
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 4: An officer put a newspaper clipping in my window, woke

896
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 4: me up, and I couldn't even like comprehend what it said.

897
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 4: I had to illegally obtain our newspaper later on in

898
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 4: the day to find out my own fate because they

899
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 4: wouldn't allow my attorneys to talk to me.

900
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 6: And that's really what we were, like, really scared of happening.

901
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 6: Like we wanted to deliver the news to her. We

902
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 6: didn't want people gossiping or telling her in prison about it.

903
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 4: So yeah, and I guess it was on the news,

904
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 4: but the cable was out, so I didn't see it.

905
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,800
Speaker 3: You're in like a media blackout, yes, and a lawyer

906
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 3: black eut. It just doesn't make any sense. But you

907
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 3: did find out. I did find out, and then.

908
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 4: And then it took three or four more days for

909
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 4: me to be released. They came with the proper documents

910
00:45:55,560 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 4: to the prison and the warden said no, no, no, no,

911
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 4: not letting her out.

912
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 7: In order for her to be released from the prison,

913
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 7: they had to get a certified copy directly delivered from

914
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 7: the court. And because this is around the holidays, things

915
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:14,839
Speaker 7: had gotten slowed down a little bit, and so even

916
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 7: though we had the certified copies in our hands as lawyers,

917
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 7: as members of the bar walking up to the warden,

918
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 7: they wouldn't accept it from us because it hadn't yet

919
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 7: gotten received by FedEx from the court. So this is

920
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 7: just again another example of the insanity that you have

921
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 7: to deal with when you're imprisoned and waiting for your

922
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 7: fate to be decided.

923
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:34,839
Speaker 3: They just felt like they hadn't fucked you over enough

924
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 3: yet maybe to get a little.

925
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 4: We had to get their last little lugs in.

926
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you know what, here you are here, I

927
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 3: am he who laughed in this case, she who laughed,

928
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 3: you know what.

929
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:46,280
Speaker 4: And I still have a smile on my face.

930
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 3: So it's all right, you do it. And I'm going

931
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 3: to tell you that I was very taken by this

932
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 3: whole scenario and very interested in finding out what had happened,

933
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 3: because it just struck me as such an outrageous set

934
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 3: of circumstances, and also because you came across in the

935
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,720
Speaker 3: media that did exist as somebody who was just really

936
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 3: want to root for. I mean, you just have a

937
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 3: very lovely demeanor thing, and you know, your spirit kind

938
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 3: of comes through even in a one dimensional format. Like

939
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 3: in the newspaper.

940
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 7: And I think something so remarkable about Blaize is just

941
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 7: her concern and her care for others, not only now

942
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 7: that she's out, but when she was in. I mean,

943
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 7: you talked about, you know, other people you were concerned

944
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 7: about in there. Heck, you always asked us on the

945
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:35,839
Speaker 7: phone how we were doing and really meant it and

946
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 7: wanted to, you know, make sure we were okay as

947
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 7: people that were connected to you. But I think the

948
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 7: drive that you've seemed to have since getting out to

949
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 7: really make changes and to not forget about the people

950
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 7: you left behind is so inspirational and hopefully inspires people

951
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 7: listening to get involved in those cases too.

952
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 4: I think it's really important for people to know what's

953
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 4: going on inside, because it's not right, it's inhumane, and

954
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 4: people are being abused inside the system, not just by

955
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 4: wrongful convictions, but just the whole process of incarceration.

956
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,399
Speaker 3: We have a tradition here, okay at Wrongful Conviction, which

957
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 3: is that at the end of each episode, I like

958
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 3: to just turn the microphone over to you and you

959
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 3: and you in reverse order and just share any closing thoughts.

960
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 3: But before we do that, I want to do something

961
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 3: we've never done before, which I'd like to bring someone

962
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 3: in the studio out here. So today, Blaze, Yes, we

963
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:39,839
Speaker 3: have with us making a special guest appearance someone who

964
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 3: is probably the most important person in your life. Is

965
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:44,240
Speaker 3: that fair to say?

966
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 4: It's fair to say she's one of the most important

967
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 4: people in my life. You know, I'm blessed because I

968
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 4: have a whole tribe of people that love me and

969
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 4: support me.

970
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 3: Well, your tribe just got bigger today. I want to

971
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 3: have you introduce Michelle all Right.

972
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 4: Hello world, to introduce you to my mom, also known

973
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 4: as Michelle.

974
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 8: Ravel Well, thank you, sweetheart. People who are listening to

975
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 8: this podcast are obviously interested in things like wrongful conviction

976
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:15,479
Speaker 8: and how this all takes place. I encourage anyone who

977
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 8: has one present itself in their life to not run away,

978
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:27,359
Speaker 8: to take advantage of the opportunity of assisting someone who

979
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 8: has no voice to have a voice. And I would

980
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 8: also like to a special request of all the journalists

981
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:41,399
Speaker 8: I know, pick one case, research it, highlight it, get

982
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 8: it out there in the world, and help free these

983
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 8: innocent people. There are too many people in prison who

984
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 8: don't belong there.

985
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,480
Speaker 3: Well, Michelle, I want to thank you for being here

986
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 3: and what you've done is extraordinary. It's just an amazing

987
00:49:55,000 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 3: example of citizen activism, which is you know, we can't

988
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 3: do without it. You literally saved Blaze's life, and I

989
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:07,520
Speaker 3: know she wouldn't be here without you, and I see

990
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 3: how she gets talking about you, and that says all

991
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:12,839
Speaker 3: I need to know. So I'm glad you're here. Thank you,

992
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:15,799
Speaker 3: thank you for sharing your thoughts. And now I'm going

993
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 3: to give you both a big hug. Unless you have

994
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 3: something else you want.

995
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:21,879
Speaker 4: To say, perfect right.

996
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:25,240
Speaker 3: Non any closing thoughts to share with the audience, anything

997
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 3: at all.

998
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:27,839
Speaker 6: I mean, I just think. I mean, Blaze has been

999
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 6: here for about a couple of days now. It's just

1000
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 6: so amazing to see her out and just enjoying life,

1001
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 6: and her spirits just really inspiring. I said this, I

1002
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 6: think last night, whatever it is, she has it like

1003
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 6: that sort of she brings you in. And I think

1004
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:49,759
Speaker 6: that's why people really bond with Blaze, because she has that.

1005
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:53,879
Speaker 3: You love your job, yes I do. Yeah, in some

1006
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 3: ways we wish we could all be out of business.

1007
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 3: Like the best thing that could possibly happen would be

1008
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 3: for the Instance project to be closed, because all these

1009
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 3: people go home but we know that's not realistic. But

1010
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 3: in the meantime, we love our job and it's because

1011
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 3: of people like you. So Jane, Yes.

1012
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 7: I'm excited for you, Blaze, to go to the conference,

1013
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:14,319
Speaker 7: the Innocent Network Conference in a couple of weeks and

1014
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 7: meet some of your brothers and sisters out there, because

1015
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 7: I know that as much as we can all talk

1016
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 7: about this and celebrate you and stand with you, we

1017
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:25,239
Speaker 7: don't understand what's happened. And I think that you just

1018
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 7: have such incredible strength and character and I hope that

1019
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 7: you're able to let your guard down a little bit

1020
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:33,359
Speaker 7: in a couple of weeks with those folks and really

1021
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:35,799
Speaker 7: feel some healing because you deserve that in a big way.

1022
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:36,360
Speaker 4: Thank you.

1023
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:39,280
Speaker 3: And the Innocent Network Conference, just to put some context,

1024
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 3: is a conference that we actually started eleven years ago,

1025
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:44,719
Speaker 3: I think in New York, and it's a it's a

1026
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 3: conference in which we bring together well, it was originally dozens,

1027
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:51,920
Speaker 3: now it's hundreds of exoneries for a weekend of healing

1028
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:58,399
Speaker 3: and hope and strength and just it's an incredible thing

1029
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 3: to be a part of the amount of energy, positive

1030
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 3: energy that's generated and the number of dedicated people activists,

1031
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 3: social workers, lawyers. It's so many people there who care

1032
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 3: that it's really a cathartic experience, and so I hope

1033
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 3: you'll have a great experience that I know you will. Okay,

1034
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 3: so now we're going to turn it over to you.

1035
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 3: You can talk about anything you want. The microphone is yours.

1036
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 4: I just want to say how happy I am to

1037
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 4: be free, and how grateful and thankful I am to

1038
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 4: all the people who have facilitated that. And I want

1039
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,280
Speaker 4: to tell people in the world that it's really important

1040
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 4: to get involved and to try to make a difference,

1041
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:43,839
Speaker 4: because we really really need to change our judicial system.

1042
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 4: It's important for everyone because this could happen to anyone.

1043
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 3: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. This episode has

1044
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:55,319
Speaker 3: been a profound experience for me, and I hope it

1045
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 3: has been for you out there in the audience. So

1046
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:03,320
Speaker 3: once again I want to thank our distinguished guests, the

1047
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 3: Innocence Project attorneys on Nonsultan, Jane Putcher, and of course

1048
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 3: you with you, you radiant little thing that you are,

1049
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 3: blaze the bottle. Thank you so much.

1050
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 4: For being here, thank you for having me, thank you,

1051
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 4: thank you.

1052
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,440
Speaker 3: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you

1053
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 3: get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud

1054
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 3: donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll

1055
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:43,240
Speaker 3: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

1056
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 3: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot

1057
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 3: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd

1058
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 3: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

1059
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:55,840
Speaker 3: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

1060
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 3: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

1061
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:03,719
Speaker 3: Instagram at Raw Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

1062
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 3: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

1063
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 3: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one