Speaker 1: I really lived by this principle and believe that what
Speaker 1: you put your attention on grows welcome to the one
Speaker 1: you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance
Speaker 1: of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out,
Speaker 1: or you are what you think ring true, and yet
Speaker 1: for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us.
Speaker 1: We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We
Speaker 1: see what we don't have instead of what we do.
Speaker 1: We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.
Speaker 1: But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It
Speaker 1: takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life
Speaker 1: worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep
Speaker 1: themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their
Speaker 1: good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this
Speaker 1: episode is Johann Berlin, CEO of the Tlex Institute North America.
Speaker 1: He creates resilience in business by strengthening the connection between individuals, teams,
Speaker 1: and organizations to achieve a greater purpose. Johan's work has
Speaker 1: been mentioned in the Harvard Business Review, New York Times,
Speaker 1: and Washington Post. He has spoken at Ted X London,
Speaker 1: Stanford Center for Compassion, the Harvard Executive NBA Alumni Summit,
Speaker 1: Wharton School of Business, and the Yale School of Management.
Speaker 1: This episode of The One You Feed is sponsored by
Speaker 1: health i q. Health i q as an insurance company
Speaker 1: that uses science combined with data to secure lower rates
Speaker 1: on life insurance for health conscious people like runners, cyclist,
Speaker 1: strength trainers, vegans and more. To see if you qualify,
Speaker 1: get your free quote today at health thi q dot
Speaker 1: com slash wolf. You can also mention the promo code
Speaker 1: wolf when you talk to a health i q agent.
Speaker 1: That's health i q dot com slash wolf. And here's
Speaker 1: the episode with Johan Brulynn. Hi, Johan, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Great to be on, Thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: very excited to have you on. Let's start like we
Speaker 1: normally do with the parable where there's a grandfather who's
Speaker 1: talking with his grandson. He says, in life, there are
Speaker 1: two wolves inside of us that are always at battle.
Speaker 1: What is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness
Speaker 1: and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf,
Speaker 1: which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And
Speaker 1: the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a
Speaker 1: second and he looks up at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather,
Speaker 1: which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed.
Speaker 1: So I'd like to start off by asking you what
Speaker 1: that parable means to you in your life and in
Speaker 1: the work that you do. Sure, the parable strikes for
Speaker 1: me in a number of ways. But I really lived
Speaker 1: by this principle and and believe that what you put
Speaker 1: your attention on growth, And I found that on a
Speaker 1: very interpersonal level, where I choose to put my attention
Speaker 1: is what my reality is. But I also think it's
Speaker 1: very interesting in that what we're learning about bio feedback
Speaker 1: and neural plasticity, and so I think these these two
Speaker 1: things converge for me and it's very beautiful. But actually
Speaker 1: prepared a story that I think is um up to
Speaker 1: this to this, So if it would be okay if
Speaker 1: I just shared that and then lead from there, absolutely great.
Speaker 1: So there was a billionaire and uh, he found out
Speaker 1: that a very wise sage was coming through town, and
Speaker 1: he asked, can I speak with this sage to one
Speaker 1: of the people organizing and they said, yeah, we'll see,
Speaker 1: And they came back and they said, yeah, you can come,
Speaker 1: but you can only ask one question. So he's thinking
Speaker 1: all night, what what should I ask? You know? Should
Speaker 1: I ask how to gain more wealth? Should I ask? Um,
Speaker 1: you know the secret to enlightenment? And he decides on
Speaker 1: a very practical question. He was a person of principles
Speaker 1: who build habits, and so he decides to ask, if
Speaker 1: I could cultivate one quality with the time I have
Speaker 1: left in this life, if I could focus on one thing,
Speaker 1: what would it be? And so he goes to the
Speaker 1: stage and he asked this question, and the stage pauses
Speaker 1: and uh. He looks at him and he says, discernment.
Speaker 1: And the man's a little taken aback. He's not used
Speaker 1: to somebody. He's a you know, very powerful person, Like,
Speaker 1: what do you mean? I need to be more discerning?
Speaker 1: And um, So he can't but help ask a second question,
Speaker 1: which is, what what do you mean discernment? Why? Why?
Speaker 1: Discernment of all things? And the sage looks at him
Speaker 1: and smiles and he says, discerning that which is important
Speaker 1: from that which isn't is the most important quality you
Speaker 1: can develop in life. And so I feel this story
Speaker 1: is very beautiful. Uh, And it goes to to to
Speaker 1: the parable as well, which is, um, we can really
Speaker 1: choose where we tend to land. I mean, we can't
Speaker 1: control the city suations around us, but we can choose
Speaker 1: what we feed ourselves. And so for me, I've been
Speaker 1: asking myself this question what is important in life and
Speaker 1: in our work? Also I've been asking what is important
Speaker 1: and meaningful work I'm running the Leadership Institute. And the
Speaker 1: answer that is coming up for me right now and
Speaker 1: has been consistently is then love is the most important thing.
Speaker 1: And it takes people back a little bit, especially in
Speaker 1: a fortune one fortune kind of setting. Anyway, I would
Speaker 1: be curious to hear hear your thought, Uh, what is
Speaker 1: the most important to you? If you have to discern
Speaker 1: something that's important, that's a great question. It's very difficult
Speaker 1: to to get it down to one word. And so
Speaker 1: I've thought about this actually recently because there was something
Speaker 1: I was doing that was sort of this idea of
Speaker 1: getting down to a fundamental value, and I I sort
Speaker 1: of oscillated between freedom, not just freedom like from oppression externally,
Speaker 1: but internal freedom, you know, freedom from the burden of self,
Speaker 1: freedom from being shackled to my thoughts. I think Also,
Speaker 1: presence was another one, you know, being present to myself
Speaker 1: to the people around me, and then love was was
Speaker 1: the other. So I'm cheating with three. Yeah, I love
Speaker 1: it though. I love this thing of agency and freedom
Speaker 1: and uh so I just wanted to share though in
Speaker 1: a in a corporate context, how love could apply because
Speaker 1: a lot of people say, like Tina Turner, you know,
Speaker 1: what's love got to do with it? Like, what's it
Speaker 1: got to do with you know, transformation? Uh? And and
Speaker 1: and work And it's an incredible thing. You know, we
Speaker 1: spend most of our life at work. Uh for most
Speaker 1: of us, Uh, most of people probably listening to this podcast.
Speaker 1: If you think about you spend the majority of your
Speaker 1: your days for sure, now if you're working, uh there
Speaker 1: and uh, it seems crazy to me that actually you
Speaker 1: wouldn't worry about the affective side or or this has
Speaker 1: been important, but I'm just to maybe demystifying it and
Speaker 1: on a more practicical note, what is a lack of
Speaker 1: love but disengagement not loving what you do? Or what
Speaker 1: is the huge disorders and lack of care for mental
Speaker 1: health and companies but maybe a lack of caring for
Speaker 1: the affective side of the people who work in those
Speaker 1: institutions maybe too much prioritization on money or something else, right,
Speaker 1: So it's actually to me, it's really at the heart
Speaker 1: of all of it. And when you see people who
Speaker 1: love what they're doing, it seems to me, you love
Speaker 1: doing this show very beautiful things come out of it.
Speaker 1: It becomes an expression, you know. Yeah. So for me,
Speaker 1: I've just been thinking a lot about this, uh, this,
Speaker 1: this what is important and what is not important? And
Speaker 1: where will I choose to put my energy in life?
Speaker 1: And what would I want to help other people with.
Speaker 1: So I've got a question for you, sure, which would
Speaker 1: be this idea of loving what you do? And I
Speaker 1: think this is a question that a lot of people
Speaker 1: wrestle with because not everybody loves what they do right.
Speaker 1: A lot of people are like I and even know
Speaker 1: what I would do if I could do what I
Speaker 1: loved right, and and or the thing I love doesn't
Speaker 1: make enough for you know, me to make a living,
Speaker 1: so I'm doing something else. How do I be engaged
Speaker 1: in and make the best out of that situation and
Speaker 1: bring love to that that thing that I'm struggling with
Speaker 1: being really interested in. So, first of all, fantastic question,
Speaker 1: and I'll take my best shot at it, but I
Speaker 1: think it's more than an answer. I would just say
Speaker 1: to everybody listening, what you've just asked is a beautiful wonder.
Speaker 1: And I was the difference between a question and a
Speaker 1: wonder for me is that a question needs an answer
Speaker 1: right away, and a wonder is something that can be
Speaker 1: new again and again when you reflect on it. And
Speaker 1: this thing of what is my purpose in life, it's
Speaker 1: kind of like the ultimate wonder or what is uh,
Speaker 1: what is it that gives me freedom or agency or
Speaker 1: lights me up? Um? And it could change, right, it
Speaker 1: could be different. But I'll give you three categories on
Speaker 1: a more practical level that I think are really important.
Speaker 1: So the first one is moving from desire and finding
Speaker 1: things that bring you contentment. Because the thing with if
Speaker 1: you if you jump into action and you're looking for
Speaker 1: fulfillment and desires and we all have them, uh, its
Speaker 1: desires are fleeting, they're constantly changing, and we get one
Speaker 1: thing and then our mind races onto the next like
Speaker 1: a carousel, right, and we overt discomfort whenever we have it,
Speaker 1: and we're chasing desire. So I think there's a big
Speaker 1: difference whenever you set an intention around something you want
Speaker 1: to do, or you wonder about something you want to do,
Speaker 1: of having this discernment of is this just a desire
Speaker 1: and it's just going to lead to more desires and
Speaker 1: more more desires after that, and the kind of a
Speaker 1: never ending change, which is quite honestly how you see
Speaker 1: most people live their life. If we think about it,
Speaker 1: when we're a kid, when we're sixteen, what do we want?
Speaker 1: We wanna driver's license, we want freedom? Right, then we
Speaker 1: have curfew and we have to be home, and then
Speaker 1: we think, man, I just want my freedom, or I
Speaker 1: want to go to college or whatever, and then we're
Speaker 1: so then we're eighteen. Where a college? It's cool at first,
Speaker 1: and then you know what three years, four years into that,
Speaker 1: you're tired of top roman. What do you want? You
Speaker 1: want to yeah, some ego like a place in life, right,
Speaker 1: and then we've got a job, and you know, our
Speaker 1: first job for most of us, it wasn't that awesome.
Speaker 1: After a while, you usually at the bottom of the
Speaker 1: totem pole, making less than you would. You know, then
Speaker 1: you need and so then you then what do you want?
Speaker 1: A promotion? You know, some people want a family and
Speaker 1: they even have kids, and then you know, what do
Speaker 1: they want? When you talk to like new parts, it's beautiful,
Speaker 1: but man, I just want a minute to myself. And
Speaker 1: then you just work your way all the way down
Speaker 1: the chain, right, And then kids leave the house, and
Speaker 1: what you're feeling this thing of man, my kids are
Speaker 1: leaving the nest and it's uh, it's you know, it's
Speaker 1: the biggest pain for a parent in some ways. And
Speaker 1: if you talk to old people, they're just looking back
Speaker 1: and they're saying, remember those good old days. And so
Speaker 1: this thing of chasing from one thing to the next,
Speaker 1: it's very fleeting. So the first thing I would say
Speaker 1: is don't look for meaning in desires and instead find
Speaker 1: things that bring you contentment, Find spaces in yourself that
Speaker 1: bring you stillness where it's enough, where this moment is enough.
Speaker 1: Whatever I'm doing, whether I like it, whether I don't
Speaker 1: like it, I feel grateful for this moment. And then
Speaker 1: something very big happens, something very beautiful can done in
Speaker 1: any situation or any moment. And a lot of freedom
Speaker 1: to and expandedness. So the second thing I would say
Speaker 1: is it's not only what you do, but a lot
Speaker 1: of times it's that you have meaningful relationships when you
Speaker 1: do it. So for sure, we can all control our jobs.
Speaker 1: But I think the research on this is I think
Speaker 1: one of the longest longitudinal studies on happiness and a
Speaker 1: purposeful life out of our showing that the number one
Speaker 1: indicator was meaningful relationships. And um, what's really crazy about
Speaker 1: this is we live in this digital age, but actually
Speaker 1: our mutual good friend Amasepola, she talks about this in
Speaker 1: her ted talk and and and every book. We have
Speaker 1: more social isolation today than we did twenty years ago
Speaker 1: in the United States. More people feel that they don't
Speaker 1: have somebody they could con find a serious problem. And
Speaker 1: it wasn't even that great twenty years ago. So this
Speaker 1: illusion where we get the dopamine from these iPhone hits
Speaker 1: and all this stuff, and we're getting these rewards, they're
Speaker 1: kind of like false positives. So that would be the
Speaker 1: second thing is put value on invest in cultivating meaningful
Speaker 1: relationships and this will probably be one of the best
Speaker 1: things you could ever do if you want to live
Speaker 1: a happy life. And then the third thing I would
Speaker 1: say is do service. Um and and so we can
Speaker 1: make this in a macro context, but also in a
Speaker 1: micro context. If I think of like a job as
Speaker 1: just the sum of its importance or its income or
Speaker 1: or whatever um, then maybe it's bringing me reward or
Speaker 1: and fulfillment, and maybe it's not. But if I think
Speaker 1: of whatever I put my life force into as an
Speaker 1: expression of something beautiful, and I treat even the most
Speaker 1: mundane things with an honor, with the reference, there's this
Speaker 1: beautiful I love this text. It's potentially Yoga sutras, and
Speaker 1: it talks about like the value of honor, just honoring
Speaker 1: something at uplifted. You know, it makes even the most
Speaker 1: mundane very special, if you know anyway. So those would
Speaker 1: be the three things, and I think I think science
Speaker 1: supports all three of those in that sense. But anecdotally
Speaker 1: in my own life and working with people, I've seen
Speaker 1: that as well. And now back to the interview. I
Speaker 1: like the idea of sort of what you said at
Speaker 1: the end about the honor piece. I think that so
Speaker 1: many of us are looking for the things that we
Speaker 1: do in life to give us meaning instead of the
Speaker 1: spirit that we bring to things. The value we bring
Speaker 1: to things is what gives something meaning often, right, And
Speaker 1: I know for myself that you know I've talked about it,
Speaker 1: you and I talked about it before the episode. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm still doing other work to support myself while I
Speaker 1: do this, And I'll tell you what, sometimes that work
Speaker 1: is just fine and wonderful. Right, It's as far as
Speaker 1: a job goes, it's got a lot of great things
Speaker 1: to really recommend it. Yes, the difference is whether I'm
Speaker 1: feeling it is a burden or not. Is totally my perspective,
Speaker 1: And the three that you mentioned into really important. The
Speaker 1: other one for me that is so critical, and it's
Speaker 1: not just at work, but it's everywhere, and it has
Speaker 1: been on my mind so much lately is the idea
Speaker 1: of resistance. When I'm at work and I'm resisting what
Speaker 1: I need to do and I'm just not giving all
Speaker 1: of myself to it, I suffer. I'm just I don't
Speaker 1: like it. I mean, and I know this, and I
Speaker 1: still do it. But when I give myself to it
Speaker 1: and I stop resisting it, all of a sudden, I'm like,
Speaker 1: this is great. And what's interesting I think is I've
Speaker 1: talked about this with other people around this idea of
Speaker 1: for people who are hoping to make a transition at
Speaker 1: some juncture to doing something else than what they're doing.
Speaker 1: There's this idea that like, if I hate my job enough,
Speaker 1: then I'll leave. What I found is that in order
Speaker 1: to get to the point where the work that I'm
Speaker 1: doing outside of the day job right is is is
Speaker 1: good enough to support me that if I hate my job,
Speaker 1: I don't have the energy to do it. But if
Speaker 1: I give myself to the job, then I've got the
Speaker 1: energy to really pursue the other things outside of it.
Speaker 1: And so for me, this is a very you know,
Speaker 1: I asked the questions. I know I've got listeners, and
Speaker 1: it's also, you know, one that's very current and present
Speaker 1: for me and has been for you know years now
Speaker 1: that we've done this podcast where I'm sort of doing
Speaker 1: work to support myself and then I'm trying to do
Speaker 1: this on top of it, and how do I make
Speaker 1: those two things work together? And I think your answers
Speaker 1: were great. I love that in this thing of what
Speaker 1: you resist persist, I think it's it's so beautiful. And
Speaker 1: by the way, there's something there's in research called thought suppression,
Speaker 1: which is we try to suppress the thought. Professor at
Speaker 1: Harvard had done this research. My my wife actually get
Speaker 1: our dissertation at Harvard on this um, but what you
Speaker 1: try to suppress, it comes back. But what's amazing to me,
Speaker 1: I want to go back to one of your earlier things,
Speaker 1: which is freedom. Right. So often, when we're resisting, or
Speaker 1: when we're mad, or when we're resentful, it's almost like
Speaker 1: a false sense of agency. Like it's almost like I
Speaker 1: feel like, I don't like this, and this is my
Speaker 1: way of taking control of it. But what's totally wild
Speaker 1: about it is you're the one who suffers when you're
Speaker 1: burning up inside, are when you're resisting a situation. Other
Speaker 1: people like, maybe it's making your harder for them, but
Speaker 1: your internal experience is your internal experience, And actually it's
Speaker 1: the total opposite of agency in that sense. I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess it's an agency towards a very unpleasant feeling,
Speaker 1: but it is certainly not freedom. Because I just find
Speaker 1: this ironic in some ways that we look for power
Speaker 1: and those sort of things, And I think it speaks
Speaker 1: to the two wolves that you're talking about in some respects.
Speaker 1: I was looking at some things of yours online and
Speaker 1: one of the things that I caught was you mentioned
Speaker 1: that you were a little bit of a troubled youth. Yeah,
Speaker 1: talk to me about your story about how you got
Speaker 1: where you are today. Yeah. I don't know if you
Speaker 1: saw that in London text, but I started by saying,
Speaker 1: you know, I was once set it like a very
Speaker 1: prestigious leadership forum, which is kind of this that's the
Speaker 1: space I'm in, and they were asking you know, introducers,
Speaker 1: and I don't like big, long introductions of yourself. Um.
Speaker 1: I think it's important for credibility for you know, but
Speaker 1: I think when it's too much sometimes, like we're all
Speaker 1: human beings at a certain level and it's just more
Speaker 1: authentic to connect on that level for the most part.
Speaker 1: But I was really reflecting, like I was feeling a
Speaker 1: little insecure and I was wanting to at least, you know,
Speaker 1: have some credibility in my introduction, and I was trying
Speaker 1: to think, well, what have you really done? And this
Speaker 1: thought just came to me, like, man, you have not
Speaker 1: done so much if I really am honest with myself,
Speaker 1: and and the thing that has been the biggest attributor
Speaker 1: is other people's kindness, and um, I feel like other
Speaker 1: people's kindness has been Yeah, it's just amazing. Um. If
Speaker 1: I think about my own life, I should not be
Speaker 1: where I am. But if I can say it's all
Speaker 1: me and agency, but but really, like, for example, I
Speaker 1: I write, I grew up totally not writing like dyslexic
Speaker 1: is not like a little dyslexic. Like literally I would
Speaker 1: a certain classes history, entrepreneurship, and I would just bomb
Speaker 1: classes like English, and so this thing of other people
Speaker 1: who step in and moments of need, other people who
Speaker 1: mentor you. Maybe when you're you don't deserve it, or
Speaker 1: the merit isn't there. Maybe maybe the merits there on
Speaker 1: some bigger level. But for me, it was really whenever
Speaker 1: I learned to understand my own mind and emotions. And
Speaker 1: I think this is one of the things we don't
Speaker 1: teach in school, uh, is how to understand our own
Speaker 1: mind and emotions. At the end of the day, we're
Speaker 1: affective people and we have to go through life with
Speaker 1: this human experience. But what we learned is like, you know,
Speaker 1: this kind of base, rudimentary stuff, and if you don't
Speaker 1: have good early childhood experiences, maybe you know you're not
Speaker 1: on such a good track in those things. It becomes
Speaker 1: very difficult. And so for me that was breathing and meditation.
Speaker 1: I have a I have a spiritual teacher, a Shankar
Speaker 1: and in particular, I think the Bokty sutras I was studying,
Speaker 1: the Boxti suitres was like a very transformational time for me.
Speaker 1: For those who don't know, Boxti sutures are aphorisms of
Speaker 1: love and I was a big tough I was actually
Speaker 1: very tough guy too. Like whenever I was young, I
Speaker 1: lifted weights at very young age, middle starting in middle school.
Speaker 1: And and somehow whenever I found this maybe it was
Speaker 1: my better wolf, uh cultivated or I fed. That was
Speaker 1: when I started to feed my better wolf. And yeah,
Speaker 1: and and then people, lots of people, somebody mentored me
Speaker 1: in entrepreneurship. Um, but yeah, whenever I was twelve, I
Speaker 1: went to Juvie and I was just on track. Both
Speaker 1: my brothers have been in and out of prison my
Speaker 1: whole life. That would look like where I was going.
Speaker 1: And now I've met heads of state and programs all
Speaker 1: over the world and front multiple companies. So it's a blessed.
Speaker 1: I just take it with gratitude and I can't give
Speaker 1: any attribution to anything other than kindness and luck. And um,
Speaker 1: maybe I fed my good wolf and this has helped me. Yep,
Speaker 1: the kindness of other people is so critical certainly has
Speaker 1: been for me when I when I look back on it, Um,
Speaker 1: there's so many that I could probably never think of
Speaker 1: them all. And yet then there are a few that
Speaker 1: are so looming. You know that that there very much there.
Speaker 1: In your ted X talk that you did, you you
Speaker 1: talked about kindness, and you you ended with three reflections
Speaker 1: on kindness. So maybe that would be a good place
Speaker 1: for us just to run through those briefly. Yeah, sure, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm happy too. So the first is that I'll have
Speaker 1: to remember the order here. I haven't seen it in
Speaker 1: many years. But we evaluate who we are kind to,
Speaker 1: that's the first thing. Yeah, we choose, like we we
Speaker 1: we decide who's worthy of our kindness, and this is
Speaker 1: um you know, and often, to be honest, if we
Speaker 1: really think we have so much unconscious bias. One neuroscientist
Speaker 1: who's one of the top centers in the world, he
Speaker 1: said he believes, after looking at all of the global
Speaker 1: literature and integrate it for the majority of credible literature,
Speaker 1: that of our decisions are unconscious. But we think some
Speaker 1: people are deserving, some people aren't, and some people were
Speaker 1: perfectly comfortable kicking to the curve. Or treating like dirt.
Speaker 1: And then somebody else, usually somebody we like, and we
Speaker 1: have no idea, we have no idea their story and
Speaker 1: to my own life, we have no idea their potential, uh,
Speaker 1: in terms of what they could be with a little
Speaker 1: bit of kindness and uh. And I feel there's this
Speaker 1: thing that you know, when life is hard on people,
Speaker 1: they become very hard and they kind of kick life back.
Speaker 1: So that's one. And then the second one is that
Speaker 1: no act is too small. And I think I shared
Speaker 1: the starfish story. Um, do you know the starfish I
Speaker 1: do know the starfish story. We've had a guest on
Speaker 1: and we told it once before, but it's so good,
Speaker 1: let's tell it again. Go ahead. All So it's also
Speaker 1: a grandfather and a grandson story, so that's appropriate. So
Speaker 1: a grandson is walking with this grandfather and there was
Speaker 1: just a huge storm, so all these starfish wash up
Speaker 1: on the beach and and and they're walking and at
Speaker 1: first it's very entertaining for the young boy. He thinks, oh, wow,
Speaker 1: look at the starfish. And then he says, you know, Grandpa,
Speaker 1: where the starfish live? And the grandfather said, oh, they
Speaker 1: live in the ocean, so they walked a little bit longer.
Speaker 1: And then the boy thinks about it, and he said, well,
Speaker 1: then what's going to happen to them out here? He says, no,
Speaker 1: don't worry about it. You know, this is uh, there
Speaker 1: was just a big storm. This is the nature of life,
Speaker 1: the cycles of nature. And then the little boy thinks
Speaker 1: about anything. He asked again, well, well, why can't we
Speaker 1: help them? Why can't we put to Mecca? And you know,
Speaker 1: you see this all tourism and kids. A lot of
Speaker 1: times you see this innocence. They want to help. They
Speaker 1: see a problem, or they see somebody not doing well,
Speaker 1: and they that pathy, that that ability to that wiring
Speaker 1: for connection hasn't been so jaded, and and they want
Speaker 1: to help. And so at one point he just runs
Speaker 1: and he just says, I'm going to help grandpa. And
Speaker 1: he starts picking up the starfish and throwing them in
Speaker 1: the ocean, and the grandfather gets a little bit upset
Speaker 1: and goes over and grabs him and says, you know,
Speaker 1: this is something you're just gonna have to learn in life.
Speaker 1: And uh, and you it's not going to make a difference,
Speaker 1: you know, it's not gonna make a difference. I just
Speaker 1: want you to know that this is a lesson you
Speaker 1: need to learn. And a little boys looking standing there,
Speaker 1: looking confused, and he has a starfish in his hand.
Speaker 1: He looks down at the starfish and he says, grandfather,
Speaker 1: it will make a difference to this one, and he
Speaker 1: throws it back in and the water. And I just
Speaker 1: think this is such a beautiful story of you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes the problems that we have in our world, human trafficking,
Speaker 1: environmental degradation, political instability. Uh, they feel bigger than our
Speaker 1: ability to respond. Our perception is that we can't. We
Speaker 1: can't fix these things on our own, so we'll just
Speaker 1: go on with our lives. And I'm sure you've experienced
Speaker 1: in this life there's no act is too small, uh,
Speaker 1: in that sense, like and and even a small act
Speaker 1: can have a huge ripple effect across many things you
Speaker 1: just don't know. And oftentimes big things have changed by
Speaker 1: small acts at the right time and the right way,
Speaker 1: in a sincere way. And we all have the agency
Speaker 1: to make a difference and whatever way it is, and
Speaker 1: if our intention is right and we're aligned in that way,
Speaker 1: it can be very beautiful. If you're enjoying this conversation,
Speaker 1: I hate to be the bearer of bad news. We
Speaker 1: are nearing the end of it. I wish you could
Speaker 1: keep listening once the episode ends. Well, I've got some
Speaker 1: good news to you can The interview continues over at
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Speaker 1: rest of the interview with Johan Berlin. The third one
Speaker 1: is don't lose hope, which you kind of covered, uh,
Speaker 1: sort of at the end there, which is, you know,
Speaker 1: it can often feel like we're not making a difference,
Speaker 1: and we do make a difference. This kind of picks
Speaker 1: up on that point. One thing that I think is
Speaker 1: really passionate about and this is actually something I wrote
Speaker 1: about recently, and it goes back to this point of
Speaker 1: scarning what matters, uh, and like this ability to the
Speaker 1: certain it's really showing up and you had mentioned presence,
Speaker 1: it's showing up in the moments that matter. I think
Speaker 1: it's such a big thing. Often we aren't even present
Speaker 1: to what's happening in our lives and building cultivating this
Speaker 1: quality to be able to show up and choosing to
Speaker 1: show up in the moments that are difficult and also
Speaker 1: in the moments that are great. I think if we
Speaker 1: look at attention span and like with now that with
Speaker 1: electronic devices and other things, more and more we're we're
Speaker 1: very distractable creatures these days. And meanwhile, every moment is
Speaker 1: very precious, right, this ability to show up. And I
Speaker 1: think the myths that we have in our culture are
Speaker 1: very counterintuitive to it. So the myths that I know
Speaker 1: of our if you want to be great, you work harder,
Speaker 1: you be better, you sacrifice, and certainly all of those
Speaker 1: things are true, but I feel that it's gone to
Speaker 1: an extreme of diminishing returns. And actually the way that
Speaker 1: one of the things that we're really missing is this
Speaker 1: ability to restore, to refresh um, to be able to
Speaker 1: replenish in in scientific terms, to be able to switch
Speaker 1: into what vagal tone or this more this this more open,
Speaker 1: flexible way of functioning UM is so important and I
Speaker 1: would be curious for you, you know, how do you
Speaker 1: show up in the moments that matter? I think remembering
Speaker 1: that I want to show up is probably for the
Speaker 1: first piece of it is, you know, just just the
Speaker 1: remembrance like, Okay, bring yourself fully here. That's the biggest
Speaker 1: challenge for me. If I can do that, although I
Speaker 1: then I sometimes have to remind myself of you know,
Speaker 1: why does the moment matter? You know, what is it
Speaker 1: about this moment that matters? Not that you know, being
Speaker 1: present necessarily needs a justification, but sometimes it can feel
Speaker 1: that way for sure. Yeah, definitely, And I think it
Speaker 1: goes back to this thing of honor, like if we
Speaker 1: honor that moment, we can be there. If we don't honor,
Speaker 1: then we treated we're looking at our phone, or if
Speaker 1: we honor that dinner conversation, then we can show up
Speaker 1: for it. And if we're not honoring and it's so
Speaker 1: often it's unconscious, it's not a value judgment, but I
Speaker 1: think it's very easy to In fact, I think our
Speaker 1: environment is very wide wired to hijack our brains uh
Speaker 1: from from being in the moment. Oh, it's incredibly wired
Speaker 1: that way, and it just gets to be more and
Speaker 1: more that way. I think I think culturally it's a challenge.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm certainly not a not a luddite, and
Speaker 1: I don't think we should move backwards technology wise, but
Speaker 1: I do think there are there are big ramifications for
Speaker 1: our near addiction to technology. It was interesting earlier when
Speaker 1: you mentioned freedom, you know, and what do people want?
Speaker 1: You know, sixteen year olds want their driver's license. Well,
Speaker 1: not so much these days. I mean, amazingly, the studies,
Speaker 1: these people have been doing this for generations are realizing
Speaker 1: that sixteen year olds and you know, far less markedly less.
Speaker 1: I don't want a driver's license because they're not going anywhere. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, they're they're they're a for they're getting less
Speaker 1: sexually transmitted diseases, drugs and alcohol use is waning. So
Speaker 1: those are all positive. But there they seem, you know,
Speaker 1: but they are unhappier than ever. And it's a lot
Speaker 1: of because I'm at home with my phone. And again,
Speaker 1: I don't think the answer is that we just go
Speaker 1: backwards and we get rid of things. Technology marches on
Speaker 1: and trying to stop it is usually a fool's errand
Speaker 1: but being but being wiser about how we use it
Speaker 1: and being able to inform people about the impacts that
Speaker 1: using technology might have on them. I think is important. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I mean we're in a new industrial revolution and with
Speaker 1: every innovation comes risks. Right with nuclear energy, there's also
Speaker 1: the risk of nuclear nuclear bombs and I and uh
Speaker 1: so we have to I think when we go through
Speaker 1: these major transferment and we're just beginning. I mean you
Speaker 1: look at machine learning, you look at AI. Some people,
Speaker 1: uh say that were many many years away for you know,
Speaker 1: sophisticated A. I think, um, some of the smartest and
Speaker 1: biggest brands in the world are making it their number
Speaker 1: one objective. But you know, are we looking at the
Speaker 1: ethical and the moral principles and what is the ethics
Speaker 1: in that innovation? I think this is the key because
Speaker 1: to your point, you we're not going to stop it,
Speaker 1: but can we live? And this is important to me.
Speaker 1: And understanding and valuing what makes us human is so important.
Speaker 1: And and as we move into that age, how are
Speaker 1: we keeping the fabric, you know, and and throwing and
Speaker 1: throwing out the inhibiiencies is an important discussion and debate
Speaker 1: for sure. Well, Johan, thank you so much for taking
Speaker 1: the time to come on the show. This has been
Speaker 1: a fun conversation. And uh, I've you know, Emma introduced us,
Speaker 1: and I'm glad that we got the chance to talk. Yeah,
Speaker 1: me too. I'm really happy and I'm and I appreciate
Speaker 1: your inquiry. Uh that I think it's a very beautiful
Speaker 1: thing of this feeding the two wolves. And and so
Speaker 1: maybe i'll I'll think about this. You know, how what
Speaker 1: what am I feeding? I think there's a lot of
Speaker 1: daily lessons even in that inquiry. Yeah, it's another way
Speaker 1: of what we talked about earlier, keeping your values in mind,
Speaker 1: thinking about what's important. It's just another mechanism for that
Speaker 1: that essential question of you know, what matters? And am
Speaker 1: I doing things that matter? You know, my spending my
Speaker 1: time in a way that lines up with what I value? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely Well, thank you so much, and thank you
Speaker 1: for the work you do. Thank you, and I hope
Speaker 1: next time we talked, I have a book. So wishing
Speaker 1: you all the best. Right, Okay, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: If what you just heard was helpful to you, please
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