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Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, a quick note to let you know that

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Speaker 1: our preschool science TV show on PBS Kids called Eleanor

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Speaker 1: Wonders Why just launched its second season. It's a show

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Speaker 1: about curiosity and exploration and learning to use science to

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Speaker 1: find your own answers to questions or Hey and I

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Speaker 1: created the show a few years ago, and the second

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Speaker 1: season has just premiered. We're so excited to share this

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Speaker 1: new batch of stories and adventures. Check it out on

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Speaker 1: PBS Kids. Eleanor Wonders Why.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Daniel, have you run out of ideas to explain

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Speaker 2: dark matter yet?

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Speaker 1: You know, we're not even close.

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Speaker 2: None of them have worked out, you know.

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Speaker 1: Also not even close to working out?

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Speaker 2: Are you close to having any ideas?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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Speaker 1: We have so many ideas.

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Speaker 2: Are they all going in the right direction? Though?

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Speaker 1: We'll never know until one of them works out.

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Speaker 2: Being what you need is like an idea that's an

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Speaker 2: anti idea going in the opposite direction.

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Speaker 1: Or maybe an anti idea will collide with all of

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Speaker 1: our ideas and make pure podcast energy.

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Speaker 2: Maybe we'll finally blow up.

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Speaker 1: We'll annihilate our lack of understanding.

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Speaker 2: No, no, we don't want to annihilate our careers. We

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Speaker 2: just want to blow up.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't mind annihilating some ignorance.

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Speaker 3: Hi.

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Speaker 2: I'm orgem a cartoonist and the author of Oliver's Great

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Speaker 2: Big Universe.

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Speaker 1: Hi. I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I'm always

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Speaker 1: wondering what crazy new idea is going to revolutionize physics.

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Speaker 2: You're wondering which idea or you're trying to come up

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Speaker 2: with an idea to revolutionize physics. Wouldn't be more productive

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Speaker 2: to do the latter.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to do all of them. Man, I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to come up with ideas. I'm looking forward to the ideas,

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Speaker 1: and I also sometimes just enjoy fantasizing about some time

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Speaker 1: in the deep future when those ideas have already been

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Speaker 1: found and proven right, and humanity is just like marinating

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Speaker 1: in the understanding.

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Speaker 3: Man.

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Speaker 2: M you seem to have like three brains here working

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Speaker 2: at the same time, past, present, in future. I mean

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Speaker 2: that's part of the problem.

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Speaker 1: Daniel, hmm, maybe I need a better cooling system.

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Speaker 2: I'm inn overheat, yeah or do Yeah, I'll just focus

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Speaker 2: focus on the present and what ideas are there. But anyways,

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Speaker 2: welcome to our podcast. Daniel and Jorge explain the Universe

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Speaker 2: a production of iHeart Radio in which.

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Speaker 1: We focus on the past, the present, and the future

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Speaker 1: of our understanding of the universe. We trace you through

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Speaker 1: the history of human thought to show you why we

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Speaker 1: think what we think in the present, and we try

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Speaker 1: to sketch out for you the future of human understanding,

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Speaker 1: the ideas that are being considered, the crazy ideas that

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Speaker 1: are just over the horizon, and try to even anticipate

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Speaker 1: what's past the edge of human imagination.

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Speaker 2: That's right, because science is the ultimate idea generator. Coming

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Speaker 2: up with the explaining for how the universe works, what's

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Speaker 2: going on in it, what are things made out of,

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Speaker 2: and maybe what ideas themselves are made out.

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Speaker 1: Of the universe is sort of like a big cosmic

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Speaker 1: mystery novel. We are gathering clues and trying to crack

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Speaker 1: the case. We don't actually know if there's an answer.

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Speaker 1: There's no guarantee that the universe does actually make sense

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Speaker 1: and that it can be understood by us. But along

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Speaker 1: the way it's going to take some creativity, some inventiveness,

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Speaker 1: some openness to crazy new ideas that might rock our world.

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Speaker 2: I guess the mystery novel is better than science fiction

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Speaker 2: for the universe genre.

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Speaker 1: I guess so. Science fiction to me is just like

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Speaker 1: mystery novels about.

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Speaker 2: Science the size of get murdered or what do you mean?

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Speaker 1: Nobody needs to get murdered. But it's always a mystery.

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Speaker 1: Like when you're reading a science fiction novel, you're wondering, like,

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Speaker 1: how does this universe work? What are the laws of

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Speaker 1: that universe? Truly the same process we do in actual

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Speaker 1: science for the real universe we're actually living in, trying

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Speaker 1: to crack the case and figure out what are the rules?

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Speaker 1: How does this little universe work?

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Speaker 2: I see, it's not a who done it? It's more

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Speaker 2: of a what done it?

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Speaker 1: What's it doing?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Exactly why done it? Or is that more philosophy?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Maybe maybe more like how's it doing it?

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Speaker 2: How's it going? This is the strain a little far

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Speaker 2: from the mystery genre here. Yeah, it is a big mystery.

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Speaker 2: There are huge mysteries out there in the universe. How

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Speaker 2: long will it be around? And what are the things

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Speaker 2: in it made out of? We still don't really know.

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Speaker 1: There are so many questions that we don't have answers to,

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Speaker 1: and so many ideas that we are considering. When you

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Speaker 1: look back at the history of human physics and think

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Speaker 1: about the progression of our understanding. It can seem like

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Speaker 1: maybe it was linear, like we understood this and then that,

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Speaker 1: and then this other idea came along. But the truth

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Speaker 1: is that it's a multi branching tree of explorations, people

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Speaker 1: going down dead ends all the time, and when you

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Speaker 1: fast forward to the current forefront of human understanding and ignorance,

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Speaker 1: you see that happen in real time. You see lots

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Speaker 1: of different ideas being explored to explain the current mysteries

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Speaker 1: of the universe.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because science and exploration is a human process, and

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Speaker 2: so like any human process, it's we're bound to make mistakes,

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Speaker 2: we're bound to go down the wrong path, We're bound

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Speaker 2: to be totally convinced that one idea is totally true,

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Speaker 2: but then later we find out that, uh, maybe it's.

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Speaker 1: Not exactly And it all seems so painfully obvious in hindsight, Like, man,

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Speaker 1: if I was around back then, I totally would have

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Speaker 1: figured that out and written that seminal paper. But it's

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Speaker 1: so much harder when you're actually standing at the forefront

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Speaker 1: of human understanding and one of the biggest mysteries that

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Speaker 1: we're trying to crack today is what is the universe

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Speaker 1: made out of? What is all the stuff that's out there?

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Speaker 1: We know that most of the universe is not made

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Speaker 1: out of the kinds of particles that we are made

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Speaker 1: out of, atoms, made of quarks and electrons, but something else,

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Speaker 1: something much more mysterious, something we have not yet cracked.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we've talked about in the podcast a lot. There's

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Speaker 2: a whopping ninety five percent of the universe that we

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Speaker 2: have no idea what it is, what it's made out of,

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Speaker 2: where did it come from, how does it work. That's

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Speaker 2: a pretty big percentage of the universe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't know what kind of books it likes

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Speaker 1: to read, whether it read science fiction or mystery or

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Speaker 1: just romance novels. I mean, we basically know nothing about

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Speaker 1: this stuff.

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Speaker 2: That's right. We don't know if it killed anyone, whether

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Speaker 2: it's there was just circumstantial evidence.

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Speaker 1: Was it in the library with a candlestick or not.

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Speaker 1: Nobody knows.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I think it was in the particle collider

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Speaker 2: with the proton accelerator.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Maybe. And a big chunk of that ninety five

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Speaker 1: percent is something we know is a kind of matter,

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Speaker 1: it's stuff, it's something that's out there, but we can't

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Speaker 1: see it or touch it. And so this mystery of

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Speaker 1: dark matter is something that really preoccupies particle physicists in

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Speaker 1: particular because we want to understand what is that dark

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Speaker 1: matter made out of.

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Speaker 2: It's been one of the biggest mysteries in the last

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Speaker 2: thirty forty years where we looked dot into the cosmos

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Speaker 2: and found that there are things holding galaxies together that

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Speaker 2: are kind of invisible intangible.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, it dates back even more than thirty or forty years.

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Speaker 1: We've been confused about it since the nineteen thirties. It's

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Speaker 1: a long history of confusion about dark matter and many

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Speaker 1: many ideas about what it might be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and as you said, particle physicists are interested in it,

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Speaker 2: but we don't even know if if it is a particle,

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Speaker 2: right Daniel.

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Speaker 1: We indeed have no idea what it is, whether or

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Speaker 1: not it's a particle, and if it's a particle, whether

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Speaker 1: it's a new, weird kind of particle we have never

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Speaker 1: seen before.

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Speaker 2: So today on the podcast, we'll be tackling the question

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Speaker 2: could dark matter be its own anti particle? Wait, wouldn't

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Speaker 2: an anti dark matter particle be called a light matter particle?

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Speaker 1: A lot of people get confused about these two topics,

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Speaker 1: or I get a lot of emails where people try

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Speaker 1: to connect these two ideas. Dark matter antimatter. Are the

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Speaker 1: two things the same, it's the missing anti matter action

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Speaker 1: explanation for dark matter. These things are very confusing to

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Speaker 1: hold in your head at the same time. So I

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Speaker 1: thought it'd be fun to do an episode to explore

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Speaker 1: or the connections between dark matter and antimatter, because there

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Speaker 1: really are some interesting, cutting edge ideas about dark matter

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Speaker 1: and anti matter.

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Speaker 2: You want to bring this topic into the anti dark

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Speaker 2: that's right.

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Speaker 1: I want to illuminate dark matter, not anti illuminated.

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Speaker 2: You want to pro explain it, not anti confused people,

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Speaker 2: or you do want to anti confuse people.

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Speaker 1: I guess I'm confused about whether I want to do

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Speaker 1: that or not.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well this is an interesting question, and so as usual,

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Speaker 2: we were wondering how many people out there had thought

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Speaker 2: about the possibility that dark matter could be its own

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Speaker 2: anti particle.

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Speaker 1: Thanks very much for everybody who plays for this segment

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Speaker 1: of the podcast. If you'd like to hear your voice

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Speaker 1: on the future episode, we would welcome you to participate.

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Speaker 1: Please just write to me to questions at Danielanjorge dot

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Speaker 1: com and I'll add you to the list.

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Speaker 2: So think about it for a second. Do you think

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Speaker 2: dark matter could be its own anti particle or do

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Speaker 2: you Anti not think that the dark matter could not

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Speaker 2: be its How I think you just did Anti failed

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Speaker 2: to do that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to give that a dark anti chuckle.

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Speaker 2: There you go. Here's what people had to say.

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Speaker 5: Well, I would say that dark meta could be pretty

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Speaker 5: much anything, because we have no idea what it really is.

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Speaker 1: But if it would be its.

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Speaker 5: Own antiparticle, wouldn't it annihilate itself on a large scale?

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Speaker 5: If it's anything like meta and anti meta no idea.

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Speaker 4: Well, then there would need to be a partner particle

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Speaker 4: in the dark matter particle antiparticle, and the dark matter

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Speaker 4: particle would annihilate when they met dark matter. Antiparticle's gone wild.

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't really see why dark matter couldn't be

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Speaker 2: its own antiparticle.

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Speaker 3: I think I remember you saying that photons are their

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Speaker 3: own anti particle.

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Speaker 1: But I really have no idea.

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Speaker 3: I think that dark meta can't be its own anti

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Speaker 3: particle because if it was, it would annihilate and produce photons,

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Speaker 3: which we would observe and I don't think we've observed.

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Speaker 1: That it's documenta to go? Is this school already? I

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Speaker 1: don't know. To be honest, I don't understand the question really.

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Speaker 1: So if it's a particle, how can it beat its

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Speaker 1: own antiparticle?

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Speaker 2: All right, a lot of interesting, thoughtful answers. A lot

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Speaker 2: of people seem to be a little bit confused about

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Speaker 2: what do you even mean and whether dark matter is

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Speaker 2: even a particle? Like do we know that for sure

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Speaker 2: or not?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, all good questions, really great comments here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it might help if you maybe explain the other

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Speaker 2: question to them a little more.

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Speaker 1: No, that's all the fun, man.

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Speaker 2: You enjoy airing their confusion.

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Speaker 1: I enjoyed trying to get a sense for what the

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Speaker 1: average podcast listener will think when you see the topic

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Speaker 1: of the episode.

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Speaker 2: Well, pretty awesome answers here, And so let's dig into it, Daniel,

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Speaker 2: what do you know about what dark matter is made

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Speaker 2: out of?

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Speaker 3: It?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? So, as you said earlier, we do know something

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Speaker 1: about dark matter. We have a sort of precision ignorance,

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Speaker 1: and that we know very well how much of this

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Speaker 1: stuff there is. We look out into the Cosmo, so

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Speaker 1: we see evidence for it everywhere. All that evidence is gravitational,

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Speaker 1: but it tugs on stuff and changes the whole structure

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Speaker 1: of the universe. As you say, it's the reason that

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Speaker 1: galaxies can spin so fast and still hold themselves together.

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Speaker 1: There isn't enough gravity from all the luminous matter, the

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Speaker 1: stars and the gas and the dust to hold galaxies

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Speaker 1: together as they spin so fast, and yet they don't

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Speaker 1: like throw their stars into intergalactic space. Very often. We

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Speaker 1: see evidence of dark matter in the very early universe

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Speaker 1: from the light in the cosmic microwave background, which shows

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Speaker 1: us ripples in that early universe plasma. Those ripples are

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Speaker 1: affected by the density of dark matter as everything was

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Speaker 1: sloshing around. So there's evidence for dark matter everywhere in

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Speaker 1: the universe. We know that it's there, we know that

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Speaker 1: it's stuff. It has gravity, but we don't know what

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Speaker 1: it's made out of.

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Speaker 2: Is that technically what makes it matter? The fact that

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Speaker 2: it has gravity, or the fact that it has mass

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Speaker 2: that then maybe has gravity to it, or can something

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Speaker 2: have gravity without mass.

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Speaker 1: Something could have gravity without mass because remember gravity is

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Speaker 1: actually connected to energy more deeply than it is to mass.

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Speaker 1: Mass is just a kind of energy. So for example,

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Speaker 1: you get enough photons into one spot in space. They

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Speaker 1: will curve space and create effectively gravity. In principle, you

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Speaker 1: can even make a black hole just out of photons,

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Speaker 1: so you don't need mass in order to curve space

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Speaker 1: and have gravity. One reason that we're convinced that dark

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Speaker 1: matter is matter is because of how it behaves as

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Speaker 1: the universe expands. Think about normal matter, atoms, protons, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: As the universe expands space gets bigger, that stuff gets

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Speaker 1: more dilute, It gets less dense because you've got the

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Speaker 1: same number of protons and now you've got more space,

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Speaker 1: so the density of that stuff is decreasing. Dark matter

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Speaker 1: acts exactly the same way as the universe expands. The

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Speaker 1: density of dark matter changes exactly the same way the

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Speaker 1: density of protons and electrons does, and that's different for

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Speaker 1: other kinds of stuff like photons radiation. The density of

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Speaker 1: photonic energy changes differently than for protons because photons also

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Speaker 1: gets their wavelengths stretched as the universe expands, and dark

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Speaker 1: energy is something totally different. Its density doesn't decrease as

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Speaker 1: the universe expands, but dark matter behaves exactly the same

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Speaker 1: way other kinds of matter do, and so we're pretty

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Speaker 1: convinced that dark matter is actually a kind of matter.

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Speaker 2: I guess what is it about dark matter that makes

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Speaker 2: it dilute like regular atoms. Is it's inertia, or it's

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Speaker 2: mass or what.

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Speaker 1: We don't know, right. If it's a particle, then that

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Speaker 1: makes perfect sense because you can increase space, but you're

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Speaker 1: not changing the number of particles, and so it will

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Speaker 1: dilute in exactly that same way. If it's something else

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Speaker 1: other than a particle, then you not me. But this

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Speaker 1: is something we notice, and it's a really big clue

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Speaker 1: that tells us that dark matter really is matter. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: it has energy, and it seems to contribute also gravitationally

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Speaker 1: to those tenser equations, the same way other kinds of

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Speaker 1: matter does. But more importantly, I think it dilutes in

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Speaker 1: the same way it matter does. Why that is we

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Speaker 1: don't know, But it feels like a big clue that

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Speaker 1: it's a kind of matter.

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Speaker 2: And if it's a kind of matter, does it have

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Speaker 2: to be a particle? Oring have matter without particles?

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Speaker 1: We've never seen matter without particles. That doesn't mean you can't, right,

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Speaker 1: We've only ever studied a tiny fraction of all the

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Speaker 1: energy in the universe. The kind of stuff that makes

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Speaker 1: up atoms and gas and dust and ice cream and

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Speaker 1: kittens is five percent of the universe. And our quantum

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Speaker 1: field theory, with these fundamental fields that ripple to make

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Speaker 1: particles and all that stuff, that explains that very very well.

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Speaker 1: But it's a little bit of a reach to say

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Speaker 1: that everything else in the universe has to follow the

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Speaker 1: same rules. Maybe it does, and it certainly would be

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Speaker 1: nice and neat and a confirmation of quantum field theory

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Speaker 1: if dark matter was described by quantum fields and the

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Speaker 1: ripples in those fields were particles. But we don't know, right.

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Speaker 1: Dark matter is a big chunk of the universe, and

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Speaker 1: it's not something we understand, so there's no guarantee that

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Speaker 1: it's made of particles.

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Speaker 2: But the leading theory of it is that it is

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Speaker 2: sort of quantum some kind of quantum particle, or is

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Speaker 2: it not even that established, or may it's the only

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Speaker 2: thing you got.

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Speaker 1: I think it says something interesting about the way science

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Speaker 1: is done. Right. We don't know that dark matter is particles,

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Speaker 1: and yet most of the theories of dark matter are

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Speaker 1: that it's a particle. Why is that? Mostly because that's

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Speaker 1: the only thing we've got, right, it's so much easier

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Speaker 1: to talk concretely about various kinds of new particles because

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Speaker 1: we know how to do that. We had that toolkit already.

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Speaker 1: It's much harder to be creative and be like, huh,

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Speaker 1: what if dark matter or something else. We talked once

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Speaker 1: on the podcast about whether dark matter was a kind

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Speaker 1: of unparticle, something which looked the same no matter how

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Speaker 1: much you zoomed in, you never like revealed its discrete

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Speaker 1: quantum nature. But those theories are much more speculative and

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Speaker 1: much harder to deal with, just because we've never seen

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Speaker 1: that kind of matter, so you just really out there

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Speaker 1: into the wilderness Intellectually. That doesn't mean that dark matter

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Speaker 1: has to be a particle. But the reason that most

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Speaker 1: of the theories of dark matter are particles is because

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Speaker 1: we're all particle physicists trying to figure this out.

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Speaker 2: Particle physicists trying to get grant to study dark matter. Perhaps.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if you invite a carpenter over to

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Speaker 1: fix a hole in your house, else, what's he going

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Speaker 1: to do? Suggest some carpentry, Right, So that's what we're doing.

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Speaker 1: We're patching up our lack of understanding the universe using

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Speaker 1: the only tools we have.

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess if it is a quantum particle, what

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Speaker 2: do we know about it? We know that it would

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Speaker 2: have mass and maybe inertia, but maybe it wouldn't feel

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Speaker 2: the electromagnetic force or the strong force or the weak force.

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Speaker 2: But it does feel gravity.

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Speaker 1: That's right. We know that it feels gravity because everything

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Speaker 1: feels gravity. Everything that has energy feels gravity. We're confident

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Speaker 1: doesn't feel the strong force or the weak force or

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Speaker 1: the electromagnetic force. There's a couple of asterisks though, that

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Speaker 1: are really important. One is there could be more forces.

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Speaker 1: There could be some new dark electromagnetism, and there could

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Speaker 1: be like dark photons, so there could be all sorts

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Speaker 1: of forces that only dark matter feels. Right, It doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean that dark matter doesn't feel any force. It just

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Speaker 1: might not feel our kinds of force. And also, the

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Speaker 1: second really important caveat is that dark matter could contain multitudes. Right,

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Speaker 1: our kind of matter is many kinds of particles. We

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Speaker 1: got six core we've got six leptons, we've got all

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Speaker 1: sorts of bosons. Why do we imagine dark matter is

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Speaker 1: one particle? Well, that's just like the simplest first idea.

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Speaker 1: Dark matter could be very complex. It could be lots

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Speaker 1: of different particles with different masses and different kinds of interactions,

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Speaker 1: just like our kind of matter. So when we speak

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Speaker 1: about dark matter, we shouldn't be like monolithic and say

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Speaker 1: it does feel this, it doesn't feel that. There could

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Speaker 1: be lots of different kinds that do and don't feel,

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Speaker 1: various different kinds of forces.

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Speaker 2: It could be a day not an it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly what are dark matters pronouns? I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean like you're saying, there might be different

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Speaker 2: kinds of dark matters.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. You can imagine a whole different set of

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Speaker 1: state of dark matter. And maybe most of it doesn't

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Speaker 1: feel electromagnetism in the weak force and gravity, but maybe

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Speaker 1: some tiny fraction of it does. Right, maybe some tiny

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Speaker 1: fraction of it isn't actually that dark.

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Speaker 2: Or maybe I wonder there could be an infinite number

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Speaker 2: of kinds of dark matters.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, that blows my mind. Could there be an

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Speaker 1: infinite number of kinds of particles?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I suppose, so there's no limit to the number of states.

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Speaker 1: You could have the number kinds of quantum fields. Yeah, sure,

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Speaker 1: let's have an infinite dark matter. Awesome, there's a new.

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Speaker 2: Theory right there, the infinite dark man, the infinite dark Yeah,

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Speaker 2: theory of.

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Speaker 1: Cham Cham's infinitely dark universe.

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Speaker 2: Right right, Like, maybe we feel some forces in common

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Speaker 2: with dark matter, but maybe there's other kinds of matter

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Speaker 2: out there that we have no relation to, but maybe

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Speaker 2: dark matter does.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, there could be. I think also, you should

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Speaker 1: come up with a color palette, like a color called

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Speaker 1: infinitely dark. You know, there's all these shades of black

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Speaker 1: people invent hmmm, infinitely dark. Yeah, that'd be a good

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Speaker 1: coat of paint right there.

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Speaker 2: All right, we'll copyright it and we'll make no money

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Speaker 2: from it.

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Speaker 1: It's your idea, man, don't give me any credit.

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Speaker 2: I'll take it, all right. Well, there's the as you said,

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Speaker 2: there's this idea that maybe dark matter is something weird,

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Speaker 2: and there's other kinds of weird stuff out there in

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Speaker 2: the universe, and sometimes people are maybe quick to wonder

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Speaker 2: if those two things are connected. And one weird thing

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Speaker 2: in the universe is antimatter. And so let's talk about

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Speaker 2: whether dark matter is related to antimatter or whether it's

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Speaker 2: anti not related to antimatter, one of those two. But first,

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Speaker 2: let's take a quick break all right, we're talking about

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Speaker 2: dark matter, and we're posing the question whether dark matter

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Speaker 2: is maybe related to antimatter, like is dark matter made

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Speaker 2: out of antimatter? Or I guess specifically, is dark matter

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Speaker 2: its own antimatter?

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Speaker 1: So first, let's just think about antimatter as a completely

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Speaker 1: separate direction, Like we're talking about matter versus dark matter,

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Speaker 1: a completely separate question is matter versus antimatter?

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Speaker 2: I like you're using versus It feels like there's there's

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Speaker 2: gonna be a fight, like shark versus tornadoes, shark versus Godzilla?

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Speaker 2: You know, can cong versus Godzilla?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: There you go.

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Speaker 1: Consider first a completely separate kind of question. Like if

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Speaker 1: you're trying to get to know somebody, you might ask,

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Speaker 1: you know, do they like mystery novels versus science fiction novels?

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Speaker 1: That's one dimension. You might also ask, like do they

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Speaker 1: like Mexican food or Italian food?

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Speaker 4: Matter?

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Speaker 1: And that's a separate kind of question.

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Speaker 2: No, it's the same thing. People who like science fiction

431
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:20,399
Speaker 2: always like Mexican food.

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Speaker 1: Wow, there are plenty of pizza love and science fection

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Speaker 1: readers out there. I promise you that's not.

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Speaker 2: I don't believe it.

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Speaker 1: So back to antimatter. This is like a subset of

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Speaker 1: a kind of matter. Antimatter is a totally normal thing

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Speaker 1: in our universe. We have particles like electrons and protons,

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Speaker 1: and what we've noticed is that we also have other

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Speaker 1: kinds of particles like the positron and the anti proton.

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Speaker 1: These are very very similar to the particles we know

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Speaker 1: and love, They just have the opposite charges. And so

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Speaker 1: it turns out that like the quantum field that gives

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Speaker 1: you an electron can also do something else. It can

444
00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,359
Speaker 1: wiggle in another way that gives you a part with

445
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,960
Speaker 1: the opposite electric charge, the positron, and the same is

446
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,800
Speaker 1: true for the quarks. The quark fields can also wiggle

447
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,320
Speaker 1: in a way to give you anti quark particles. And

448
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,320
Speaker 1: so what we notice is that the fields that give

449
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,840
Speaker 1: us matter have this capacity to also generate antimatter.

450
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:16,800
Speaker 2: Well, this is a part that it's always confused me.

451
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,600
Speaker 2: I know that antimatter is matter with the charges flip,

452
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,760
Speaker 2: but sometimes some particles have multiple charges like right, Like

453
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,760
Speaker 2: quarks can field multiple forces like the electromagnetic force and

454
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,640
Speaker 2: also the strong force. So does that mean that an

455
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,520
Speaker 2: antiquark has all of its sigence flip or some of

456
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,679
Speaker 2: its science flip are the different flavors of sign flippage.

457
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 1: Well, what you call matter in what you call antimatter

458
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 1: is a little bit arbitrary. Like we could have called

459
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,880
Speaker 1: the electron matter and the positron antimatter, or we could

460
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,560
Speaker 1: have called the positron matter in the electron antimatter, and

461
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 1: that arbitrary from field to field. Also, like we could

462
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,119
Speaker 1: keep calling the electron matter and call the anti quarks matter. Also,

463
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,720
Speaker 1: it's a little bit arbitrary. Really, what we're trying to

464
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:57,760
Speaker 1: get at is that there's a symmetry in these fields.

465
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,679
Speaker 1: These fields can do two different kinds of things, and

466
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,680
Speaker 1: so specifically, like anti quarks have the flipped electric charge,

467
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:06,919
Speaker 1: but they can also have a flipped color charge and

468
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,560
Speaker 1: a flipped weak charge. So if you have, for example,

469
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 1: a red quark, it's anti cork has the opposite electric charge.

470
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,159
Speaker 1: It also has an anti red color for the strong force,

471
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,440
Speaker 1: and what about the weak force. Yeah, so the weak

472
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,959
Speaker 1: force actually is two different charges, which makes it very complicated,

473
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 1: and those are also flipped. And that's one way to

474
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:28,120
Speaker 1: understand what happens when matter and antimatter meat. A lot

475
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,479
Speaker 1: of these properties that the quarks and the electrons have

476
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,680
Speaker 1: These are conserved quantities like charge and color and whatever.

477
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,640
Speaker 1: And when matter and antimatter meat, they balance each other

478
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 1: out in terms of those quantities. So you can take

479
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 1: a particle that has electric charge and then another one

480
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 1: that has the opposite electric charge. You can put them

481
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 1: together to make a photon which is neutral, which has

482
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,359
Speaker 1: no electric charge. You can only do that because the

483
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 1: accounting works out. They balance each other out to get

484
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 1: you to zero.

485
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 2: But I guess what do you what do you call

486
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 2: a quark that has the opposite electric charge, the opposite

487
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 2: weak force charge, but the same strong force charge. Is

488
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 2: it still anti?

489
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,640
Speaker 1: It's a little bit arbitrary, But that particle would have

490
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 1: an anti particle with all of those charges flipped.

491
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 2: Oh, I see, So you use anti when all the

492
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,119
Speaker 2: charges are flipped. But if something you only hell only

493
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,159
Speaker 2: has one thing flipped, you just call that like another particle.

494
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 1: It's more than We talk about this in terms of pairs, right,

495
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 1: this is a particle anti particle pair. But again, which

496
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,439
Speaker 1: one you call anti, which one you call not anti

497
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,680
Speaker 1: is totally arbitrary, so you can make up whatever rules

498
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 1: you want. Really, the thing is that the fields can

499
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:32,480
Speaker 1: generate two different kinds of particles with opposite characteristics. M.

500
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 2: Daniel. I'm starting to suspect here that maybe you just

501
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 2: call this thing wrong.

502
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 1: I'm not anti against that.

503
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think you're saying that antimatters really

504
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 2: just matter.

505
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 1: Yes, antimatter is just another kind of matter, yes.

506
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the anti is just like if you pick

507
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 2: one kind of matter and you flip all its signs

508
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 2: and you call that it's anti matter, but not necessarily right.

509
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. In the same way, there are relationships between other

510
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 1: bits of things we call matter, like the electron and

511
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 1: the muon in the towel. These are all very very

512
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 1: similar particles. They just have different masses. There's some relationship

513
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 1: between them. We see lots of different kinds of these relationships,

514
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 1: these patterns in our particle physics, and there's lots of

515
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 1: different dimensions there. There's like the symmetries of the leptons.

516
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 1: This is symmetries of matter and antimatter. This is the

517
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 1: symmetry between the quarks and the leptons. There's all these

518
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,639
Speaker 1: reflections and patterns we see in the particles, most of

519
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 1: which we don't understand, and the names for them are

520
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 1: terrible because they date back to when we understood even

521
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:29,360
Speaker 1: less well.

522
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 2: I think I figured it out. I think what you're

523
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 2: saying is that it makes sense to call something an

524
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 2: anti electron or an anti quark or an antiproton, but

525
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 2: it doesn't really make sense to use the term antimatter.

526
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 2: Like that term doesn't really apply to anything specific.

527
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 1: It does not really apply to anything specific. Really, what

528
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 1: it does is tell you what kind of things we

529
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,400
Speaker 1: tend to not have in the universe, Like matter really

530
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 1: is like about the stuff that we see in the universe.

531
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,719
Speaker 1: We see lots of protons, we see lots of electrons,

532
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 1: so we call those matter. It turns out there are

533
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: other states which tend to not appear very often in universe.

534
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 1: They do sometimes, but not very often, and so that's

535
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: why they get called antimatter.

536
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 2: So really there should be like matter, and then there

537
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 2: should be anti the most common matter.

538
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: Really, matter contains multitudes, right, there's lots of different things

539
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: that matter can do, right, and only a few of

540
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,959
Speaker 1: those states exist. In the same way with muons. Muons

541
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 1: don't exist very often in the universe. They're created sometimes

542
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,400
Speaker 1: in collisions and then decay away. We don't call them

543
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: anti matter because they're not around very often.

544
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 2: No, but do you know what I mean? Like, I

545
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 2: think what you're saying is what you call antimatter. Typically

546
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 2: you really what you mean is anti common matter? Yeah, sure,

547
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 2: Like the term antimatter doesn't really exist.

548
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, but then how do you deal with particles that

549
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: are never around anyway? Like we have top quarks, those

550
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 1: things never exist except on their specialized conditions, and we

551
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 1: have anti top quarks. Neither of those things really exist

552
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 1: very often, So the whole thing's a mess. I totally agree.

553
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like you can have anti top quarks, but it

554
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 2: doesn't make sense to call it anti matter.

555
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Neither top quarks or anti toop quarks are

556
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,160
Speaker 1: ever around in the universe and any significant density. And

557
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: it is arbitrary which one you call anti in which

558
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 1: one you call not anti. The takeaway is that all

559
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,479
Speaker 1: these particles can do this really interesting thing where they

560
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: can create two different states. Electrons really are cousins of positrons.

561
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 1: The electron field can do this thing. It can wiggle

562
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,640
Speaker 1: in an electron way and in a positron way. So

563
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: then we think about dark matter, where like, hmm, what

564
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 1: about dark matter? Can dark matter do that? Also?

565
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 2: Well, the question is it can dark matter, have it's

566
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 2: an anti version of it? Or could dark matter be

567
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 2: an anti version of some other particles?

568
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:38,959
Speaker 3: Oh?

569
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: I see, The question is does dark matter have its

570
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: own anti dark matter? Right like, if dark matter is

571
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,199
Speaker 1: a particle, do the fields that generate those particles? Can

572
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,479
Speaker 1: they also make another kind of particle, which we call

573
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: anti dark matter, And again totally arbitrary, which one you

574
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 1: call it dark matter, which one you call it anti

575
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 1: dark matter? Doesn't make any difference. The question is it

576
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 1: doing both things or is it some new weird kind

577
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: of particle where it can't do that it is its

578
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: own anti matter, where like, instead of a field that

579
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 1: can generate pairs like positrons and electrons, it's some weird

580
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: field that generates only one singular kind of particle. We're

581
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: not considering the question whether anti hour matter is dark matter.

582
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: Is dark matter made of positrons and anti quarks. That's

583
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: not possible because we know it doesn't feel electromagnetism and

584
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 1: all that stuff, and antimatter does.

585
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 2: Right. Well, that's kind of the question I was wondering about. Somehow,

586
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 2: maybe our understanding of our fields and charges it's not

587
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 2: quite complete, And so if you flip certain things in

588
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 2: our kind of matter, maybe you get dark matter. I

589
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 2: don't know.

590
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: All the matter particles that we know about except for

591
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 1: neutrinos have charges. Right, So electrons and muons and towels

592
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 1: and quarks and all that stuff have charges. And so

593
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 1: if you flip them and you make anti matter, then

594
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,679
Speaker 1: they still have charges. It's just the opposite charges, and

595
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: so that means they really can't be the dark matter.

596
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: There is a question about neutrinos. Neutrinos we don't understand

597
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 1: very well. Possible, then trino's actually a potential example of

598
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 1: a particle that might be its own anti particle, And

599
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: it's one reason why people wonder about dark matter. Is

600
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: dark matter like the electron where it has a particle

601
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,159
Speaker 1: and an antiparticle pair, or is dark matter like the

602
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: way people might think the neutrino is where it is

603
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 1: its own anti particle.

604
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 2: Right right. But here's where I win the Nobel price, Daniel.

605
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 2: What if the electromagnetic force that we know about, we

606
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 2: think it only has plus or minus two charges, But

607
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,120
Speaker 2: what if it has a third charge?

608
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: Well, there is a third charge. Zero neutrinos have zero

609
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 1: electric charge, right right?

610
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 2: Well, okay, what if there's a fourth charge, and somehow

611
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 2: if you take like an electron and you flip it

612
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 2: to this fourth charge, then we can no longer interact

613
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 2: with it. And so it would sort of behave like

614
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 2: dark matter, wouldn't it?

615
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: Love the creativity, totally willing to explore this with you,

616
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: But it feels like electric charges are either zero or

617
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 1: positive or negative, and if it's not zero, then it's

618
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 1: got to be positive or negative, and then it's going

619
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: to feel electricity, in which case it's not dark matter.

620
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: So I don't know how to escape that.

621
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 2: Mathematics, Well, it's sort of like, aren't some particle don't

622
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 2: some particles have three charges?

623
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 1: So the strong force has three charges for example, red, green,

624
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: and blue, instead of just plus and minus. Oh, I see,

625
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 1: So you want to expand electromagnetism to say it's not

626
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: just on a single number line, it's on some more

627
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: complex structure.

628
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 2: Yes, that is my Nobel Price proposition.

629
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: I guess I would say, why does it have to

630
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: be electromagnetism, Why not just have these particles have no

631
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 1: electric charge? Why change electromagnetism.

632
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 2: Well, we're trying to figure out if it could maybe

633
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 2: explain dark matter. Right, if it does have some other

634
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 2: dimension of electromagnetism. Maybe it could be dark matter.

635
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: It's possible that electromagnetism is different from what we think

636
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 1: it is. Although electromagnetism like the best tested theory out there,

637
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 1: like to nine decimal places we understand electromagnetism, So that'd

638
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 1: be a pretty tricky needle to thread.

639
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 2: That's why I would be awarded the Nobel price.

640
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: Yea, or at least five or six? Absolutely five, yeah,

641
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: I mean swing for the fences, man, if you're going

642
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 1: for it, absolutely yeah.

643
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 2: I'll take all of them for the next one hundred years, all.

644
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, we'll send them all to your infinitely black

645
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: painted mansion. But I think it's more likely that dark

646
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 1: matter just has zero electric charge. I mean, we have

647
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: examples of particles with no electric charge, like neutrinos. That's

648
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 1: not exotic or weird. So why can't dark matter just

649
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 1: have no electric charge?

650
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 2: Okay, it sounds like you're not entertaining the notion that

651
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 2: maybe dark matter is some sort of anti version of

652
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 2: our regular matter. And the question you actually want to

653
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 2: ask today is is this sort of property of dark matter? Right? Like,

654
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 2: does dark matter behave like the other kinds of particles

655
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 2: where it has an anti version of itself.

656
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: Or is it some weird thing named after mysterious Italian

657
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: physicist et Torre Mayerana, where it is its own anti

658
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: particle somehow.

659
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 2: Now I guess why is this question more interesting than mine?

660
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: I think all questions are interesting. Of course, if the

661
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: dark matter is somehow a reflection of our kind of matter,

662
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 1: it would have to be a reflection in some new

663
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 1: way we haven't even imagined. In that sense, it wouldn't

664
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 1: be like antimatter. It'd be like yet another reflection, the

665
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: way we see patterns between electrons and muons and towels,

666
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: and we see patterns between quarks and leptons. Say, for example,

667
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: we discover dark matter, and we discover that every particle

668
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: has a weird dark version of itself. There's a dark

669
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: upcork and a dark top cork, and a dark electron,

670
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: and that, like our kind of matter, is like weirdly

671
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 1: reflected into dark matter. Then you can make a connection

672
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: between matter and dark matter and say, oh, there's some

673
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: reflection here. It'd be a different relationship than the one

674
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: described by matter and antimatter, but there would be some

675
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: sort of symmetry there. I think maybe that's what you're

676
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: going for. That would be possible, and that would be awesome,

677
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: And if we discover dark matter and see that structure,

678
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 1: I'll make sure that you get credit for it.

679
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 2: Awesome, thank you. But it sounds like you want to

680
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 2: explore this question of whether dark matter it can be

681
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 2: its own antimatter. And I didn't mean to minimize it.

682
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 2: I just I was just wondering, why is this question interesting?

683
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 2: Why does it matter if something is its own antimatter.

684
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting because it's one of the few

685
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: tools we have right. We've been thinking about particle dark

686
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 1: matter for a long time, and for a long time

687
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: people have been assuming that, well, if dark matter is

688
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: a particle, it's probably like the other ones, in which

689
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: case there's some anti version of it, like people call

690
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: the dark matter particle KAI. So maybe there's a Kai

691
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: and an anti Kai, and the two things like both

692
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: exist in our universe. That's sort of like the standard approach.

693
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: Most dark matter theories have a particle and an anti

694
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 1: particle for the dark matter, but we haven't found any

695
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 1: of those things yet. We've been looking for this particle

696
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: for a long long time and haven't seen it. So

697
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: people are trying to be creative and people thinking, well,

698
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 1: maybe it's a little different from what we imagined. Maybe

699
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: it operates in a different way, and this field is

700
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: a little bit different, And it's important also for how

701
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 1: you look for it because it changes how that particle

702
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 1: gets mass. If the particle is its own anti particle,

703
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: then it doesn't get its mass from the Higgs field

704
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: the way our particles do. Has to get its mass

705
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: in some other way, and that means you can't use

706
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: the Higgs field to discover dark matter.

707
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 2: Wait, wait, wait, let's maybe take a step. So I

708
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 2: think the scenario trying to paint for people is that

709
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 2: dark matter is out there, it's a particle, and it's

710
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 2: subject to some certain forces, definitely not the electromagnetic force,

711
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 2: perhaps definitely gravity, maybe some other kinds of forces out there.

712
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 2: And the question is, could that dark matter have its

713
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 2: signs flipped to where it becomes antimatter but then it's

714
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 2: its own antimatter as opposed to having dark antimatter just

715
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 2: exist out there in the world.

716
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:29,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly right.

717
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 2: You're asking a very specific question, which is could it

718
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 2: be its own antimatter, not just like does it have antimatter?

719
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 2: Anti dark matter, but whether it's its own anti matter particle.

720
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, saying something is its own anti particle, it's kind

721
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 1: of weird. It's kind of just like saying there is

722
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 1: no anti version of it. There's just one example. Another,

723
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 1: maybe a clearer way to say it is like, does

724
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 1: this field, the dark matter field that makes dark matter

725
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: particles make two kinds that are paired in this way

726
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: we've been talking about, like electrons and positrons, quarks and

727
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 1: anti quarks, or does it just make one that just

728
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: make a single solitary particle. And we do have some

729
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: examples of particles that are their own anti particle or

730
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 1: don't have antiparticles. However, you want to say it, like

731
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,720
Speaker 1: the photon, right, what's the anti particle of the photon?

732
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 1: There isn't one. The photon already has zero in all

733
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: those charges. You flip them, you still get zero. The

734
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,240
Speaker 1: electromagnetic field can make a photon, doesn't make an anti photon.

735
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 3: Mmm.

736
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 2: So in the same way, are you saying that the

737
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,399
Speaker 2: question is whether dark matter has any charge at all

738
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 2: in any of the force fields. Really, that's kind of

739
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 2: what you're asking, right.

740
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: That's a clever idea. But if dark matter is its

741
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 1: own antiparticle. It's possible for it to still have some charge.

742
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: It would just mean that there is no anti version

743
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 1: of it.

744
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 2: H What do you mean, like if it had a

745
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,320
Speaker 2: charge in some kind of force field, couldn't just flip

746
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 2: it and wouldn't that be its anti matter version?

747
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 1: But that flipped version might not exist, right, Like take

748
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: neutrinos for example, trus very concrete example, because we don't

749
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: actually know if anti neutrinos even exist in the universe.

750
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: We've seen particles we call them neutrinos. We talk about

751
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: it as if there are neutrinos and anti neutrinos, but

752
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: we're not even actually sure if anti neutrinos are a thing.

753
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: It could be that all the neutrinos we've ever seen

754
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 1: are just neutrinos, right, And so you might ask, well,

755
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 1: but neutrinos have no charge, but they do have weak charges, right,

756
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 1: They interact with the weak force. So there are those

757
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:22,320
Speaker 1: weird hypercharges and isospin and all those weird weak quantum numbers.

758
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: But it could just be that there aren't the anti

759
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:26,800
Speaker 1: versions of them. Like you say, just flip the charge.

760
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: But it's not like you can take a particle and

761
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 1: just like flip a switch on it to make the

762
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: anti version of it, the field has to be capable

763
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: of generating that. Maybe the fields just don't right. I mean,

764
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: there's a different quantum mechanical math that describes fields that

765
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 1: make one kind of particle and fields that make pairs

766
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: of particles. And it's possible we've worked out all the

767
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: mathematics to have particles that don't have antiparticles or are

768
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: their own antiparticles, whichever way you want to say it.

769
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 2: Wait, so the neutrino doesn't have an anti neutrino, or

770
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 2: we've never seen an anti neutrino, or it technically could

771
00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 2: have one, but if we've never seen.

772
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: One, we've seen lots of neutrino. We don't know whether

773
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 1: there are anti neutrinos.

774
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 2: But theoretically there could be, right, Like, all do you

775
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 2: have to do is flip the sign.

776
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: There are versions of the theory of the universe in

777
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 1: which neutrinos have anti neutrinos, and that makes neutrinos a

778
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 1: specific kind of particle. They're called direct particles that can

779
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: generate both the particle and the anti particle. But it

780
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 1: could also be and it's totally consistent with everything we've

781
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 1: seen in the universe so far and all experiments that

782
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 1: neutrinos are their own anti particle or have no anti particle.

783
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: There's another kind of mathematics for particles invented by Mayorana

784
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 1: that explains everything we've seen in the universe without anti neutrinos.

785
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 2: But what do you take that math and just flip

786
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 2: the sign on the of the trino? What do you get?

787
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 2: Does it just explode? Does it just break down the

788
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 2: theory or what I'm trying to figure out? What what

789
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 2: you mean?

790
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: Take the math and flip the sign that you have

791
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 1: another field, right, So instead of having one field that's

792
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 1: generating the two particles, you can imagine there's another field

793
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: out there that generates like a complementary particle. So instead

794
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 1: of a field generating a pair of particles, now you

795
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 1: are inventing two different fields, one for a neutrino and

796
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 1: one for another particle, which is the neutrino with all

797
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 1: of its charges flipped, which you'd be tempted to call

798
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: an anti neutrino, but it's not generated from the same field,

799
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 1: so it doesn't really have that particle anti particle relationship.

800
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 2: As opposed to like an anti electron is not a

801
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 2: different field or is it the same field?

802
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: No, an anti electron and an electron are generated from

803
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: a single quantum field. It's two things that a single

804
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 1: field can do. Single field can ripple an electron like way,

805
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 1: and it can ripple in an anti electron like way.

806
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: There's no separate anti electron quantum field. So why can't

807
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: the neutrina do that. It's possible that it does, right,

808
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: we just don't know. Is a neutrino direct like, in

809
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: which case there is a neutrino and an anti neutrino

810
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 1: generated by one field, Or is a neutrino mayerana, in

811
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 1: which case it can only generate one particle. We just

812
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: don't know which is which. And the same question applies

813
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 1: for dark matter. Is dark matter it's own antiparticle? Is

814
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,360
Speaker 1: it like that way the neutrino might be, or is

815
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: it the way electrons and quarks are.

816
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 2: I guess I'm losing a little bit of tra here

817
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,399
Speaker 2: because it seems like the question of whether dark matter

818
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 2: can have an anti version. I think what you're saying

819
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,320
Speaker 2: is that it could have its own and anti version,

820
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 2: or we could just ignore it. That it can have

821
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 2: an its own anti version.

822
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: It's a question about like, what is the nature of

823
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: the particle dark matter? Is it like electrons and positrons?

824
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: Are there particles out there that are paired and dark

825
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: you know, the kai and the anti kai? Or is

826
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 1: dark matter a different kind of particle, not like electrons

827
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,439
Speaker 1: and positrons, made in a different kind of way.

828
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 2: Whose field doesn't work both ways? Is what you're saying. Yeah, exactly,

829
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 2: that's the difference. Like some particles fields work both ways

830
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 2: and can generate matter and anti matter versions of them,

831
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 2: but some for some reason don't. And you're saying it

832
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 2: sounds like the reason is like we just don't include

833
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 2: it in the math.

834
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 1: There's a way to write the mathematics where that doesn't happen.

835
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 1: You can write it in a way that doesn't. You

836
00:38:57,960 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: can write it in a way that doesn't for the Chino.

837
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 1: The jury is still out about which is the correct

838
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 1: mathematics for dark matter?

839
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 2: Also, but for like the photon, what we know that

840
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:08,359
Speaker 2: it can't or what?

841
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 1: So the photon is different. It's neither direct nor myrona

842
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 1: because it's not a matter particle. Photon is radiation, right,

843
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: it's a wiggle in the electromagnetic field. So it's not

844
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 1: a fermion at all. It's a boson. It's a totally

845
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: different kind of particle. That's why the photon and the

846
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 1: z boson these don't have anti particles. They're different kind

847
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 1: of ripple in a different kind of field.

848
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 2: It sort of feels like we're asking, is dark matter

849
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 2: an apple or an orange? But we've never seen an

850
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 2: apple or an orange? If we don't even know if

851
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:36,240
Speaker 2: apples or oranges exist.

852
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 1: I mean, if you want to make the frend analogy, no,

853
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 1: if you want to make the fruit analogy, that's awesome.

854
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 1: It's like saying, everything we've ever seen is an apple,

855
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 1: except maybe neutrinos are oranges. Is dark matter an apple

856
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:50,800
Speaker 1: or an orange? Well, we've never seen an orange, but

857
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 1: we've also never seen dark matter, so who knows? That's

858
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:55,240
Speaker 1: the fruit analogy?

859
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 3: Well?

860
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:57,760
Speaker 2: Right, that isn't that what I said? Like, we're saying,

861
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 2: but we have seen apples, is dark matter and apple

862
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 2: on orange? We don't know if oranges even exist.

863
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: Yes, that's right, but we do know apples exist, yes,

864
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 1: so we have this mathematics for oranges. We're like, oh, that's.

865
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 2: Interesting, suggest that maybe oranges exist, but we don't know

866
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 2: for sure, and we don't know for sure. Any seems

867
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:14,320
Speaker 2: to be an arbitrary choice.

868
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 1: Well, the universe is kind of arbitr of the universe picks.

869
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 1: We have two options. We don't know which it is.

870
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: We're close to figuring out if the neutrino is an

871
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 1: apple or an orange. We don't know, but we have

872
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: these two competing kinds of mathematics, and we want to

873
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 1: be creative about dark matter because we're worried, frankly, that

874
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: we've been too close minded, that we're too focused on

875
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: the kinds of matter we're familiar with, So trying to

876
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,360
Speaker 1: break out of that box a little bit and consider

877
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 1: other kinds of fruits.

878
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 2: So, then the question we're really asking here today is

879
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 2: is dark matter an orange or an apple? Right?

880
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: Sure?

881
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 2: I want to dig into what it would mean for

882
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 2: dark matter to be either of those fruits and what

883
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 2: that means about what it's made out of. Possibly, So

884
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 2: let's dig into that for first. Let's take a quick break,

885
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 2: all right, So then the question we're really asking here

886
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 2: today is is dark matter an apple or an orange?

887
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 2: Apple means that it can have its an antimatter version

888
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 2: of it, and orange means it cannot.

889
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 1: I love first of all, that the vocabulary for particle

890
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 1: physics is so bad that we have to borrow it

891
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: from fruits. Now, yeah, that makes it clearer somehow.

892
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does to me. I mean, you know, when

893
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 2: you use jargon, it just kind of last mind.

894
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 1: Apples and oranges are also jark, and it's just different.

895
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 2: But I know apples and I know orangines. That of

896
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 2: our listeners know apples and oranges. We're really asking if

897
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 2: dark matter is is an apple or an orange? And

898
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 2: so what would it mean for it to be an apple?

899
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 2: What would it mean for dark matter to have antimatter

900
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,360
Speaker 2: versions of itself as opposed to it being an orange,

901
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 2: which wouldn't mean it cannot have an anti version of

902
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:03,280
Speaker 2: it if.

903
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 1: It's an apple. If there's an antimatter and a matter

904
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:09,800
Speaker 1: version of dark matter, that means something important. It means

905
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 1: that it interacts with the Higgs boson and it gets

906
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: its mass from the Higgs field. In order to get

907
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 1: your mass from the Higgs field, you have to be

908
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 1: a particle anti particle pair. That's absolutely essential. The Higgs

909
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 1: field will not interact with you if you don't have

910
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 1: a matter and an antimatter version of yourself.

911
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 2: How do you know, though, how has the Higgs boson.

912
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 1: It's part of the way the Higgs mechanism works. You know,

913
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,800
Speaker 1: as an electron is flying through space, it interacts with

914
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 1: the Higgs field and it makes momentarily positrons. Like the

915
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 1: mathematics of the interaction between particles and the Higgs field

916
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: just doesn't work without the antimatter as well.

917
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 2: Wait, it doesn't work as well, but it does work,

918
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 2: or it doesn't work at all.

919
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,839
Speaker 1: No, sorry, it just does not work if you don't

920
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:52,879
Speaker 1: have matter and antimatter.

921
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 2: In addition, or at least the possibility of having an

922
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 2: anti version of yourself.

923
00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, those fields have to be able to do

924
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: both things. Has to be an apple field in order

925
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 1: to interact with the Higgs field.

926
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 2: And if it cannot, then you don't feel mass. You

927
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 2: don't have mass.

928
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 1: Or what if it cannot, then you do not feel

929
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 1: the Higgs field, which has two important consequences. One, it

930
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 1: means if you can't use the Higgs boson to discover it.

931
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,359
Speaker 1: If dark matter has a matter and antimatter version, then

932
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 1: that means that it interacts with the Higgs field. That

933
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: means if we make a bunch of Higgs bosons. Sometimes

934
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: those Higgs bosons will turn into a dark matter, an

935
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: anti dark matter pair. We could like make a bunch

936
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:30,839
Speaker 1: of Higgs bosons and a large hadron collider and some

937
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,239
Speaker 1: of them could turn into dark matter. That would be

938
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 1: very exciting. The other thing is if you don't interact

939
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:37,839
Speaker 1: with Higgs field, that it means you don't get your mass

940
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 1: from the Higgs field. Means you can't make this kind

941
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 1: of matter from Higgs bosons. It means you have to

942
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 1: get your mass from some other mechanism.

943
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 3: Right.

944
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 1: Remember, the Higgs field is one way to get mass,

945
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 1: but not the only way that things get mass. It's

946
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 1: just one example. If there are particles out there that

947
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,879
Speaker 1: are oranges that are their own antimatter, then if they

948
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:57,919
Speaker 1: have mass, they don't get it from the Higgs field.

949
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 1: And that might be the case for neutrinos. That might

950
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:05,359
Speaker 1: even explain why neutrinos are so crazy low mass, much

951
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 1: lower mass than everything else in the.

952
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,879
Speaker 2: Universe, because they don't interact with the Higgs field. They

953
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 2: get their mass from something else.

954
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 1: That's the idea, right, That's one reason why people are

955
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 1: suspicious that maybe neutrinos don't have anti particles. Because neutrino

956
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 1: mass is super tiny. It's like a billion times lower

957
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 1: than the masses of electrons and quarks and these other particles.

958
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 1: It's very very small. It suggests that maybe they're getting

959
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: their mass in another way.

960
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 2: So then the question, the repercussions of this question then

961
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,280
Speaker 2: is whether or not dark matter interacts with the Higgs

962
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:39,280
Speaker 2: field or that's one of the repercussions.

963
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:41,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's one of the repercussions. And that's an important

964
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 1: one because it means if dark matter gets mass. I remember,

965
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 1: the mass of dark matter is the thing that like

966
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 1: shapes the universe and bends space times so that we

967
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 1: get galaxies Like this is an important consequential thing. Where

968
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 1: does the mass of dark matter come from? If not

969
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: the Higgs field, But it also has consequences for how

970
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 1: we see it. There matter interacts with the Higgs field,

971
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 1: it means we can make it in colliders. It means

972
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 1: fundamentally it also has to feel the weak force in

973
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 1: some way. Some part of dark matter at least has to,

974
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 1: which means that we could maybe interact with it, and

975
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: our detectors and all these millions of dollars we spent

976
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,919
Speaker 1: building quiet tanks underground looking for dark matter might see

977
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 1: a signal. But if dark matter is not, if it's

978
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: an orange and it doesn't get its mass from the

979
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 1: Higgs boson, then something else is making most of the

980
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:28,280
Speaker 1: mass in the universe, and it means it's much less

981
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 1: likely we can use our particle physics experiments to discover

982
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 1: dark matter.

983
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 2: Well, that's a pretty big bed on apples. Well, it

984
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:38,320
Speaker 2: sounds like you're saying like, if it can interact with

985
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 2: the Higgs, then we can maybe see it in our colliders,

986
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 2: because in our colliders we can make higgs, and so

987
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 2: you could use those higgs to make dark matter. But

988
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 2: we haven't so far, right, we have not so far.

989
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 2: Isn't that evidence towards saying maybe dark matter is it orange?

990
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,240
Speaker 1: Yeah? Exactly. Well, it rules out some versions of the apple.

991
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 1: There's always ways to escape these bounds. Maybe it's a

992
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 1: different kind of apple, or maybe it's a really low

993
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:03,439
Speaker 1: mass apple or something. But yeah, we have never seen

994
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,359
Speaker 1: the Higgs boson turned into dark matter so far. That's

995
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 1: one reason to motivate this kind of creativity, to think

996
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 1: outside of the apple box and imagine, you know, maybe

997
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:13,919
Speaker 1: dark matter is actually a banana. Who knows.

998
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 2: It sounds like you're getting on top of your apple

999
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 2: box here potizing about fruit fruit collisions.

1000
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 1: Maybe dark matter is just a smoothie after all.

1001
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go.

1002
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,959
Speaker 1: It's a quant mechanical smoothie superposition of all the possible fruits.

1003
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:31,879
Speaker 2: Right right, And this episode's brought to you by Jump

1004
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 2: a Juice.

1005
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 1: And Sherman Williams. Infinitely dark.

1006
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 2: I feel like we just spent an hour trying to

1007
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 2: ask a question of whether a dark matter interacts with

1008
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,720
Speaker 2: the Higgs field or not. Yeah, we have just started

1009
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:46,280
Speaker 2: with that question.

1010
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's go back in time.

1011
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 2: Let's pull another fruit from the either and let's use

1012
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 2: that to go back in time. No, but do you

1013
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:54,879
Speaker 2: know what I mean? Like, does it all just come

1014
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 2: down to that one question, does dark matter interact with

1015
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,040
Speaker 2: the Higgs field or not? And the second question, and

1016
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 2: I guess would be how will we find out?

1017
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: I don't think that's the only question. I think more fundamentally,

1018
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: we're just curious about the nature of dark matter. That's

1019
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:09,760
Speaker 1: a consequence of it. But we're wondering how many different

1020
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 1: kinds of matter can there be in the universe. Is

1021
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 1: dark matter an example of a new kind of matter?

1022
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 1: Or is it a weird version of the neutrino? Is

1023
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 1: it actually neutrinos. Fundamentally, we just want to know, like

1024
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 1: what kinds of stuff can the universe do? Because the

1025
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 1: more kinds of ways we can see the universe wiggle,

1026
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 1: the more clues we might get about simplifying that, about

1027
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,799
Speaker 1: drilling down to the next layer of reality and understanding

1028
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,279
Speaker 1: why we have all these weird reflections. Why are there

1029
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: electrons and muons and towels and matter and antimatter and

1030
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,800
Speaker 1: quarks and leptons. Aren't they all just like putting together

1031
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 1: tiny little squiggly bits of the deeper theory. The more

1032
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:43,840
Speaker 1: we gain and understanding the kinds of ways quantum fields

1033
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: can wiggle, the closer we are to figuring out what's

1034
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:49,320
Speaker 1: underneath it all. So I think there's a deeper mystery

1035
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: there just about the nature of dark matter, not just

1036
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 1: whether it interacts with the Higgs field. That's an important

1037
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 1: consequence and effects whether we can see it.

1038
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 2: We just want to know if dark matter is an

1039
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 2: apple or a north or even if oranges exist. Apparently

1040
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:02,479
Speaker 2: we don't.

1041
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 1: We don't, but we do have experiments coming online pretty

1042
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 1: soon to try to figure out if neutrinos are their

1043
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 1: own particle or not. We have a whole episode about this,

1044
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 1: and also about the fantastically mysterious life of Ettore Mayorana,

1045
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 1: who disappeared strangely on a sea voyage and nobody ever

1046
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 1: heard from him again. So check out the episode about

1047
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: whether neutrinos are Mayorana particles. That might give us a

1048
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 1: clue about whether the universe allows matter particles to be

1049
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 1: their own anti particles, or whether oranges exist.

1050
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 2: Do we have an episode coming up about colliding apple

1051
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:34,800
Speaker 2: or what have you? Collide them with an orange?

1052
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:36,839
Speaker 1: We didn't before, but now we do.

1053
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 2: Just make apple pie, all right? Well, another interesting exploration

1054
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:45,959
Speaker 2: into the ideas that particle physicists are considering about what

1055
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 2: the nature of matter out there is, including dark matter,

1056
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,800
Speaker 2: maybe the biggest kind of matter there is in the universe.

1057
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:54,840
Speaker 1: Some day in the future, somebody will listen to this

1058
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 1: podcast and think, Man, those folks had no idea. The

1059
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 1: answer was right in front of them all along.

1060
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 2: It was a banana the whole time. Plot twist from

1061
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 2: the first episode, we've been saying it's a banana.

1062
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 1: We've been definitely laying the pipe for that plot twist.

1063
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, We've been peeling away at the plot twist

1064
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 2: for a long time. All right, Well, we hope you

1065
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 2: enjoyed that. Thanks for joining us, See you next time.

1066
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:30,880
Speaker 1: For more science and curiosity, come find us on social media,

1067
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 1: where we answer questions and post videos. We're on Twitter, Discord, Instant,

1068
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:39,320
Speaker 1: and now TikTok. Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel

1069
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:42,800
Speaker 1: and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio.

1070
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1071
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,760
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.