WEBVTT - Energy on the Kardashev Scale 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:07.240 Brought to you by Toyota. Let's go places. Welcome to 0:00:07.400 --> 0:00:14.680 Forward Thinking. Hay there, and welcome to Forward Thinking, the 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:17.439 podcast that looks at the future and says I'd studied 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:22.520 your cartoons, radio music, TV, movies, magazines. I'm Jonathan Strickland Lauren, 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:26.000 and I'm Joe McCormick. And uh, I gotta I got 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:29.560 a question for you guys. How would you Uh, let's 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:34.360 assume for a moment that there are a few intelligent 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:37.920 civilizations out there? Okay, are we talking about on Earth 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:41.159 or throughout the universe. When I say out there, I 0:00:41.240 --> 0:00:44.840 usually mean space. What we count Earth is one intelligent 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:50.000 civilization Earth, Earth as a as a whole. Uh, And 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:55.600 how would you go about categorizing that particular type of things? 0:00:55.600 --> 0:00:58.160 Like if there if you knew there were multiple extraterrestrial 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:02.440 intelligent civilizations out there, what sort of criteria would you 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:06.320 use to kind of classify them? Um? Has James T. 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:09.000 Kirk made out with any of them? That's a big one. 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:11.959 How many of them showed up? You can basically sort 0:01:12.000 --> 0:01:16.039 into two groups. You have you have positive on the 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:18.600 made out scale or not or negative on the made 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:21.440 out For me, is were they represented in moss Ic 0:01:21.560 --> 0:01:25.080 Lee's Cantina during the Star Wars episode for a New 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:31.240 Hope and only in the pre uh special edition days 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:33.960 because special edition changed up some stuff, like you don't 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:37.480 have werewolves in the special edition one. UM. I would 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:41.400 also say, uh, do you can sort them into psychic 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:45.520 fog and non psychic fog? So so we just call 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:49.880 that fog, Joe, non psychic fog is just fog. Oh 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:54.760 you're right, all right? So uh, Lauren an Well, I 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:56.240 was just gonna say that I think that most of 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:59.640 these definitions are are weirdly based in in science. I mean, 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:02.600 because because you're assuming that if something has gotten to 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:05.240 James T. Kirk to to allow him to make out 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:07.760 with it, or if it has reached the masais La Cantina, 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:11.880 that it has the enough power over its resources to 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:15.639 um to have interplanetary space travel. It's a big one. 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:19.200 Oh yeah, so it might be from this distance actually 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:25.160 worth trying to sort alien civilizations into stages of technological advancement, 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:27.400 because we tend to try to do that with our 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:30.440 own history on planet Earth, right, Like we can look 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:33.800 at ourselves as pre or post agricultural. That's like a 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:37.800 big turning joint or like pre or post industrial, pre 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:41.040 or post digital. Uh. And even in the future you 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:45.160 could say we are like pre or post the technological singularity, right, 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:48.960 And so this got us to thinking about a couple 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:51.280 of different things. But you know, I was also thinking 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:56.079 about other alternatives to discussing, you know, humans history, like 0:02:56.800 --> 0:03:00.359 how would we define our human civilization in terms of 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:03.640 a galactic kind of view or even a universal view. 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:10.760 So we've barely started an we're the tiniest of blips 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:14.480 when you look at the universal scale of time. We 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:17.320 haven't been around for long at all, like not even 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:21.520 a heartbeat yet on the galactic side of things. But 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:24.280 I started thinking how would I define that? And one 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:26.079 of one thing I thought it was, well, maybe you 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:29.960 could define human history, uh in a way of like 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:32.160 how far out did we have we gotten? Like how 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:34.480 far out have we explored? So that'd be one way 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:39.800 you could explain a species ability at say their technological 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:42.320 development is how far have they gone from their point 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:45.400 of origin? So you mean like any kind of probe 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:49.560 or like robust like colonization either way, either way, I mean, 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:54.240 it doesn't really matter. It's it's all stages of that exploration. Yeah, 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:56.240 So so you, you know, you would have like, you know, 0:03:56.320 --> 0:03:59.000 qualifiers obviously, so you might be like, well, they've sent 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:02.280 robots out to the neighboring solar systems, but no, actual 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:05.920 men do not want to make out with that robot. Honestly, 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:08.760 he probably does. I had a qualification to the James T. 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:10.720 Kirk thing. I didn't mean he had to make out 0:04:10.760 --> 0:04:15.120 with every member of the species, at least one. I 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:18.320 feel like that was understand is only one man? So uh, 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:23.640 one amazing man, James Tiberius Kirk. We salute you. But no, 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:25.880 that would be one way of explaining it, right. The 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:28.520 one way of describing it is how far out have 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:31.200 we gone from our point of origin? Ok? Okay, So 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:33.320 that's one way. Another one I thought of is just 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:36.280 the way we define ourselves. So right now we define 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:39.640 ourselves as human beings were Homo sapiens. But one of 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:41.760 the things we've talked about in the past is this 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:44.960 idea of the singularity, which could end up making us 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:49.080 redefine what we are depending upon how that singularity plays out. 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:52.080 There are a lot of different scenarios that are encompassed 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:55.160 by this concept the singularity, that involved things like we 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:58.680 become sort of robot people, or we figure out how 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:01.440 to biologically manipulate aid ourselves to the point where we 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:04.880 kind of evolved to another species, So that would be 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:08.120 an almost cyberneticus. Yeah, and that could be another way 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:10.800 that we end up defining ourselves, although that gets problematic 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:15.360 because theoretically we could have one version of the singularity 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:18.040 that gives you lots of different choices, right, which means 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:22.000 that we end up having crazy amounts of individualization, where 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:25.960 defining us as a broad species might even become problematic. Well, 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:30.000 but again, that's a scale of how biological versus artificial 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:33.320 you have made yourselves well, or even how you've enhanced 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:37.000 yourself biologically, because if I if I've never even maybe 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:39.680 I don't have my awesome robot arm that I totally 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:42.560 want to get, but I've got like a super strong 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:45.640 arm because I've been able to modify my my body 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:48.599 and some other biological means. Though, I want to offer 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:51.880 a question, which is that, Okay, so maybe that might 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:54.840 change the way we look at ourselves in a big way, 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:57.120 Like whether or not you've got robotic limbs and can 0:05:57.160 --> 0:05:59.720 live for ten thousand years makes a big difference to us, 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:03.359 but to someone say like at the other end of 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:06.400 the Milky Way galaxy. That doesn't make a big difference 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:08.760 in how they view up now. They don't care because 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:11.640 they don't have the context of all of human history 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:14.359 to care about that, right, So that that seems like 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:18.800 a thing that's more internally important than externally. So there's 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:21.760 a another way of looking at this that goes back 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:24.320 to the idea of how much energy are we able 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:28.440 to harness, how much are we able to take advantage of, 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:31.080 and how much of that are we dedicating to sending 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:33.880 a signal out there saying, hey, guys, here we are. 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:38.080 And this is sort of what is the underlying idea 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:41.359 behind what we call the kardashi of scale, right, the 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:46.279 Cardashev scale, proposed by Nikolai Kardashev in the nineteen sixties. 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:49.360 You know I love people named Nikolai. Yeah, Well, this 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:51.640 guy you could you can tell him in person, because 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:54.960 he's still alive. He's eighty one and deputy director of 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:58.839 a space research institute in Russia. And for you, sir, 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:03.400 and he uh. He was proposing that we needed to 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:08.599 think of civilizations in broad, incredibly broad categories. As it 0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:12.000 turns out, um too in a way to to narrow 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:14.800 down what we're looking for when we're looking for evidence 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:18.160 of those civilizations sending out messages out into space. Right, 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:21.600 because following Frank Drake's work in nineteen sixty um and 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:23.760 and we did a whole episode on the Drake equations, 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:25.960 so you can check out um is anybody out there 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:29.080 published on November six if you would like to hear 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:31.160 all about that. But but following up on his work 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:36.400 talking about searching for signals, for extraterrestrial signals, Uh, this 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:38.320 is what this is what Kardashiev was doing. Yeah. He 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:42.440 was saying that if you assume that civilizations are able to, uh, 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:46.440 to harness a certain amount of power, then you that 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:50.080 changes what sort of signals you are actually looking for. Yeah, okay, 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:52.720 And so this scale first showed up in a paper 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:58.120 called Transmission of Information by Exterrestrial Civilizations in the Journal 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:02.560 of Soviet Astronomy in nineteen three. And he was taking 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:06.960 this kind of hypothetical approach of categorizing civilizations into these 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:11.840 broad broad buckets as a way of looking at things 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:14.680 that were interesting they were popping up on on radio 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:18.840 radio antenna's. For example, there was the c t A 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:22.880 one oh two event, which was this this radio signal 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:25.240 that was picked up that was really strong. It was 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:29.760 clearly extraterrestrial or appeared to be extraterrestrial in origin, so 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:32.280 it didn't come from Earth. It came from somewhere else. 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:34.600 And there were some people who were even saying that 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:37.560 they were, uh, they were detecting some variability in the 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:45.080 signal which could suggest some form of intelligent communication that 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:49.520 was a quasar. So it definitely stirred a huge reaction 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:52.040 in the scientific community, and it took some time to 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:55.480 be able to kind of whittle this down. There was 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:57.600 a there was another one in the seventies called the 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:00.240 Wow signal. You might have heard of that one, and 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:03.560 that one it was named after what somebody wrote on 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:05.560 the print out of it. Yeah. They they looked at 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:08.120 they had a print out of the what the radio 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:10.200 antenna had picked up, and they rode down next to it, 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:13.360 circled it, and then wrote down Wow. Because it seemed 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:17.719 to be something that would potentially be a sign of 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:23.120 extraterrestrial intelligence. And certainly any indication has to be studied 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:27.240 uh quite a bit to get to that level of certainty, 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:30.839 but it was certainly promising and um, that was another 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:34.600 one that got a lot of attention. Uh, it turned 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:37.840 out that a lot of other more sensitive antenna did 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:40.920 not pick up that particular signal, which kind of brings 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:46.240 into question what this thing actually was could have been 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:50.000 could some some have suggested that it was actually a 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:53.440 reflection of an earth bound signal, that something was was 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:56.640 broadcast out, bounced off space debris and bounced back down 0:09:56.640 --> 0:09:58.800 to Earth and that's why I picked up. Although it 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:04.440 appears upon further examination that that's not really likely unless 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:08.160 it was some sort of military application, because it was 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:12.520 on a bandwidth it's reserved for radio astronomy, So it 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:16.600 shouldn't have been like a television station just boosting up 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:19.280 their signal or something because it was on a prohibited band. 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:23.520 Maybe those darn kids playing with their transistor it was, 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:25.760 I think it was. It was Cosby's kids say the 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:29.520 darndest things. Actually it was what it was. Okay, So, 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:32.400 so what did all old Nicolaike Hardischev have to say 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:36.040 about the types of civilizations that we might find out there? Well, 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:40.040 you know, again, this really concerns the civilizations that we 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:44.520 would have a chance of detecting. Just start talking about bacteria, right, 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.880 or even intelligent life that has yet to develop any 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:51.280 form of radio communication, because even if those may exist, 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:53.320 but there'd be no way for us to detect them 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:55.959 with our our radio astronomy. Right, And this ties back 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:59.040 into if you listen to our episode on the Drake equation, 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:01.840 what that is talking about. Also, it's an equation for 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:05.480 determining the likelihood that we will encounter another civilization in 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:10.240 our galaxy. And that's based on technological civilization, not like 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:14.440 a planet full of goats, right, or even a planet 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:17.880 full of pre industrial human like creatures, because they would 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:21.360 have no way of goats yeah, or human well, I 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:24.320 have known a few. Um, actually not if you go 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:27.400 like humans too, So it goes both ways. Kirk made 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:30.880 it to that planet at any rate, that old goat. 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:36.599 So the the original version of this uh Kardashian divided 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:40.840 civilizations into three broad types of categories, and this again 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:43.480 was based on the amount of energy they could harness 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:47.000 and make yourself, and the idea being that if the 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:50.360 more energy they this civilization could harness, the more they 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:54.360 could dedicate to things like broadcasting information out into the 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:57.360 void so that someone else could hear it, whether or 0:11:57.400 --> 0:12:00.040 not it was intentional, because in some cases, Wait, you 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:03.200 might pick up a signal that was never meant to 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:05.320 be a hey, we're here kind of thing. It might 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:09.400 just be Yeah, it could be exactly like the alien 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:12.680 equivalent of a rerun of Love Boat. Um. So, Type 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:16.520 one civilization is a civilization that's capable of harnessing the 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:19.680 energy of a planet. Now, that does not necessarily mean 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:23.920 that the civilization would have reached some way of harnessing 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:26.600 all the energy available on the planet. It might mean 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:30.600 they are able to harness the energy equivalent to what 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:33.360 is available on a planet. So it may have multiple 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:38.040 means of harnessing energy. Not just oh, this one civilization 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:41.280 has gotten really good at processing oil. That's not what 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:43.720 this means. It could mean that you don't You look 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:46.839 at the mass of the planet and you calculate how 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.560 much energy that planet could generate, and that's how much 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:53.560 energy this particular civilization is able to harness in various ways. 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:56.600 So that sounds like we're not even at type one yet. 0:12:56.840 --> 0:12:59.280 Not yet. No, this would be around ten to the 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:03.440 power of six team watts. And uh. There are other people, 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:07.000 including Carl Sagan, who have proposed that there needs to 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:09.880 be a slightly more fine gradient. But we'll we'll get 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:11.200 into that in a little bit because I need to 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:15.120 explain why. Yeah, because because that's type one, right, type 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:18.880 was one planet's two. That sounds pretty huge. It's a star, 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:23.480 so it's it's a bit of a jump from But essentially, 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:26.160 you know, when you think about it from just a 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:29.839 logical if you are able to harness all the energy 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:31.920 on your planet, where do you go next? Well, I 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:35.800 mean you could harness energy of neighboring planets. That's basically 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:37.920 the same thing over again, right, right, that tends to 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:41.040 be something in between your planet, and so that would 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:43.320 be somewhere between type one and type two. Right. If 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:45.440 you were able to harness the energy of multiple planets 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:48.000 in your in your solar system, then sure you could 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:50.760 increase the amount of energy you're able to generate, but 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:53.480 you're still not anywhere close to what would be a 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:55.920 type to the next big step up right, Yeah, so 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:58.680 you'd have to have some way of harnessing all the 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:02.439 energy being put off by the Sun in your solar system. 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:06.680 Is that that would be ten to the twenty six power. 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:11.600 So we're talking you know, zeroswenty zeros. Yeah, we're this huge, 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:15.480 so one plan is ten to six. This is ten 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:19.080 to the twenty six, so much larger um. Yeah, huge 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:21.920 amount of energy we're talking about here, and we'll talk 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:25.160 more about you know, how would that possibly happen? Where 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:28.320 would you go after a star? Well, you know there 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:32.200 are other stars in the galaxy. So type three is 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:37.160 a civilization capable of harnessing the energy of an entire galaxy. 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:42.320 That is, it's which is basically unimaginable, about billions of stars, 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:44.600 and that would be that would be about ten to 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:47.440 the thirty seven power. What's of course the creepy thing. 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:50.240 Just let me stop and recognize there are so many 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:53.120 galaxies out there, so far away from us, that it's 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:56.880 possible this already exists. We don't even know. It's possible 0:14:56.920 --> 0:15:00.400 this exists multiple times. Like there there could be multiple 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:03.040 civilizations out there. It could be that our galaxy is 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:06.000 the only one that's not on that list. Uh, that's 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:08.800 not likely. Yeah, we might say why that's not likely 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:13.320 in a bit, because it uh, something that's harvesting that 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:16.400 much energy would seem to probably give off some kind 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:20.920 of signal, probably show up. And unless what's showing up 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:23.880 is exactly what we happened to see Yeah, well, I 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:25.600 guess we can talk about that. And you also you 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:27.840 also have to keep in mind that any any signal 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:32.040 emanating from such a galaxy would take thousands and thousands 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:34.640 and thousands and thousands of millions of years to get 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:37.840 to us, right, I mean, it's not like it's it's 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:42.440 unless those civilizations that span multiple galaxies themselves are billions 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:44.720 of years old, we wouldn't even know. The timing would 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:47.880 have to be pretty spectacular. So anyway, those are the 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:51.760 three big categories, and as some people have pointed out, 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:55.320 there needs there might need to be some like wiggle 0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:58.160 room between them, because to go from planet to star 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:00.000 is a big jump. To go from star to galley 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:04.640 see is a colossal jump. Yeah, though, I might wonder 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:09.400 if you could imagine that harnessing energy technology is exponential 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:12.760 in the same way that harnessing, say, information systems, has 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:17.240 been exponential for us on Earth well, and and the 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.520 point that Cardaschef was making again was more about assuming 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:22.920 they are human like intelligent races out there in the 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:25.640 sense that they have intelligence the way we have intelligence. 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:27.960 Assuming that there are those out there and that they 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:30.200 are able to harness energy in similar ways that we 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:33.240 are able to harness energy on our planet, and we 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:36.520 assume that there are these three big categories, how would 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:42.120 civilizations in each of those categories broadcast information? And his 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:44.960 point was saying that, well, if you're a type three 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:48.840 civilization and you have this massive amount of energy that 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:53.040 you are that you are harnessing your your broadcast would 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:55.680 be really powerful, but they would also probably be really 0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:59.280 really short because you have reached a technological sophistication where 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:02.240 you are able to pack in huge amounts of information 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:06.920 and relatively tiny bits of of of radio blasts. So 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:10.760 the argument there is saying, let's look for things that 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:14.480 fit into patterns that would that would emanate from these 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:17.280 sorts of civilizations, and that will help us try and 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:22.840 identify extraterrestrial intelligent civilizations out there. Okay, so wait a minute, 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:28.040 so cardashianv identified one through three. Yeah, you want to 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:31.479 go higher, I can take it after a galaxy. So 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:34.440 after a galaxy, you have intri galaxy or exit galaxy 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:39.719 where you you have um multiple galaxies under your ability. 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:42.840 But that's that's not come on, that's not that's not 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:45.280 the topic. We can go all the way at to five. 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:47.080 I'm gonna take it to five. You want to go 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:49.760 to five to alight five? You're able to harness the 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:54.120 energy of multiple universes. What, Yeah, it's a multiverse approach. Okay, 0:17:55.280 --> 0:18:00.320 I thought that the definition of the multiverse was non interacting. Yeah, 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:04.359 they don't really like to talk about it. Yeah, Type 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:06.280 five is one of those things that other people have 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:09.119 kind of added. It's not card ships, and it's not 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:12.560 cardship carda ship stuck with the three. But even even 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:14.240 even type four is the kind of thing that we 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:16.840 can only imagine by thinking about like time lords with 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:21.080 que continuum or uh, you know the creators of whatever 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:23.520 those modeliths are in two thousand one of space. Right, 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:27.400 if you were to literally control multiple universes, I mean, 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:31.399 you would essentially be omnipotent, but with it, you might 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:34.240 be creating your own universes. So that that could you 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:36.920 would you might extend that argument as any race that 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:39.399 could do that could potentially be running our universe on 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:42.280 a computer simulation. Right now, that's a really smart, smart 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:46.719 alien goat. Yeah, so k Kirk probably probably can hear 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:49.480 us talking about them, right, and they think it's hilarious. 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:53.760 I can see right through Kirk's moves, right through them. 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:56.520 So and getting back I was I mentioned before that 0:18:56.600 --> 0:18:59.840 Carl Sagan had suggested that fine tuning this approach might 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:03.440 be a good idea. According to what Sagan was looking at, 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:07.119 he he tweaked karda Chev's approach a bit. I don't know, 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:09.080 I to go into the fold, the tail, it's you know, 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:13.160 there's some subtle changes there. But ultimately he determined that 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:17.280 humans were somewhere in the point seven range, So we 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:19.480 weren't even type one yet, we would be type point 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:22.760 zero point seven. We've kind of fine tuned that a 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:24.840 little bit. It's I think the last one I saw, 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.280 although I'm sure there are other more up to date ones. 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:29.320 The one of the ones I saw was specifically point 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:34.480 seven one seven. That really fine tunes it. Um, And 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:36.439 it might take us a while to finally work up 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:40.119 the type one. Even though our uh energy production is 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:44.520 increasing at what one could describe as, if not exponential, 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:49.199 at least an alarming rate. Um, we will probably not 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:53.800 hit type one for at least one to three centuries. Yeah, 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:58.399 even very very optimistic people like Michio Kaku um estimate 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:01.360 you know, a hundred two hundred years. Yeah, and there 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:05.080 are others. There's a Jason T. Right and who is 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:08.080 an assistant professor of astronomy and astrophysics at Penn State, 0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:10.960 who suggests that it might be closer to three hundred years. 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:13.720 By the way, I'll try and link this, But um, 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:16.440 but James T Right or Jason T Right, I've got 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:20.359 the James T. Kirts going on. Jason, I apologize, Jason. 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:25.760 Jason writes blog on UM Astronomy and Astrophysics. Is is great. 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:28.720 It was something I had not discovered until we started 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:34.200 researching this particular episode. But his his discussions about excess 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:38.199 heat and the Kardashian scale and determining whether or not 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:40.840 extraterrestrial life is out there, all of them were really 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:43.280 fascinating stuff. So I'll try and link to those when 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:46.880 this episode comes out. Uh so, what would we need 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:49.760 to have to call ourselves a type one civilization? What 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:52.920 is that in the next few centuries going to hypothetically 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:55.359 look like we'd have to be able to generate the 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:59.920 amount of energy that our planet could conceivably Um, it's 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:02.800 apply to us like that's we'd have to hit that limit, 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:07.840 and that's going to require things like either fusion generators, 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:10.359 We're gonna have to move to a lot more nuclear power. 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:13.440 Even if we go with something like renewable energy, we'd 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:18.600 have to have a lot of renewable energy collection sources 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:22.119 across the entire planet. Maybe improve solar panels, you know, 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:27.960 from the fifteen that they're at now, to something like, well, 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:32.160 not just improve them, but make tons of the coat 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:34.439 the planet with them, and not keep in mind that, No, 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:37.840 it's not necessary for us to rely on a single 0:21:37.920 --> 0:21:41.200 source of energy, so we could be relying on multiple sources. 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:43.880 It could be that that fusion, if we ever really 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:46.440 make that work for us on a practical level, could 0:21:47.240 --> 0:21:50.399 provide the ground level, and then things like renewable energy 0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:53.840 sources might offset the rest, and then eventually we hit 0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:58.280 type one based upon Cardashov scale using that kind of method. 0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:00.560 So I doubt that it's ever going to be a 0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:05.480 single source. We might even dip into anti matter. WHOA yeah, 0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:10.640 not uncle matter, just antimatter. Lauren is judging me, Joe 0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:14.040 is laughing. Things are as they should be, okay, Okay, 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:16.639 So I can see how you could use a combination 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:21.359 of all these things to harness maybe the energy equivalent 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:24.600 of a planet. What do you have to start inventing 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:27.239 in order to harvest the energy of a star. And 0:22:27.320 --> 0:22:30.520 before you answer that, I'm going to answer myself because 0:22:30.520 --> 0:22:37.280 I'm so excited about it. This is one of my 0:22:38.040 --> 0:22:41.640 dramatically this is one of my favorite sort of science 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:45.960 fiction science reality ideas out there. Well yeah, because LeMond 0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:50.280 Dyson posited this idea first, and it actually positive before 0:22:50.359 --> 0:22:53.560 the Kardashian scale was invented. This is this the dice 0:22:53.760 --> 0:22:56.320 the concept of the dicensphere sometime in the Fishies, right, 0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:00.480 I want to say, and uh, And the reason why 0:23:00.520 --> 0:23:02.280 we even look at this is because even if you 0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:05.359 were harnessing all the starlight that's hitting a planet, that's like, 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:08.760