WEBVTT - SPECIAL: Turning Fact into Fiction with Roxane Gay 

0:00:15.396 --> 0:00:24.316
<v Speaker 1>Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show

0:00:24.356 --> 0:00:27.716
<v Speaker 1>where we usually explore the stories behind the stories in

0:00:27.756 --> 0:00:31.876
<v Speaker 1>the news. I'm Noah Feldment. Today, though, we're doing something

0:00:31.916 --> 0:00:34.436
<v Speaker 1>a little different. We're going to talk about a story

0:00:34.676 --> 0:00:39.076
<v Speaker 1>inspired by the news. Pushkin, the podcast production company that

0:00:39.156 --> 0:00:41.956
<v Speaker 1>makes Deep Background, just launched a new show called The

0:00:42.036 --> 0:00:46.436
<v Speaker 1>Chronicles of Now It's pretty cool. Each week on this podcast,

0:00:46.476 --> 0:00:49.156
<v Speaker 1>you can listen to a fictional short story inspired by

0:00:49.236 --> 0:00:52.756
<v Speaker 1>real news. The show launched with a short story by

0:00:52.876 --> 0:00:56.276
<v Speaker 1>Roxanne Gay, a story I really loved. It's about life

0:00:56.396 --> 0:00:59.916
<v Speaker 1>under lockdown because of a pandemic, a lot like what's

0:00:59.916 --> 0:01:03.956
<v Speaker 1>happening now, but a little more intense. I just thought,

0:01:03.956 --> 0:01:06.316
<v Speaker 1>what would it be like to live with your partner

0:01:06.836 --> 0:01:11.236
<v Speaker 1>in isolation for a year. Roxanne Gay is the author

0:01:11.276 --> 0:01:14.476
<v Speaker 1>of the novel An Untamed State, a best selling collection

0:01:14.516 --> 0:01:17.276
<v Speaker 1>of essay is called Bad Feminist, and the best selling

0:01:17.316 --> 0:01:20.836
<v Speaker 1>memoir Hunger. She's a contributing opinion writer for The New

0:01:20.916 --> 0:01:23.996
<v Speaker 1>York Times, and she's a fascinating person who's always at

0:01:23.996 --> 0:01:27.076
<v Speaker 1>the center of the cultural conversation, often leading it. I

0:01:27.116 --> 0:01:29.236
<v Speaker 1>wanted to talk to her about her new short story,

0:01:29.636 --> 0:01:32.636
<v Speaker 1>her work in many different genres and what we can

0:01:32.716 --> 0:01:41.676
<v Speaker 1>learn when we turn news into fiction. Roxanne, thank you

0:01:41.716 --> 0:01:45.356
<v Speaker 1>so much for being here. Chronicles of Now is starting

0:01:45.596 --> 0:01:50.356
<v Speaker 1>with an episode featuring your short story String Theory, which

0:01:50.396 --> 0:01:53.516
<v Speaker 1>is an extraordinary story. I wonder if you would begin

0:01:53.636 --> 0:01:56.876
<v Speaker 1>by just saying a few words about it. It's, of course,

0:01:56.916 --> 0:01:58.676
<v Speaker 1>never the simplest thing to explain a short story, because

0:01:58.676 --> 0:02:00.196
<v Speaker 1>that's why you wrote the short story, not to have

0:02:00.276 --> 0:02:02.596
<v Speaker 1>to explain it. But if there's anything you think would

0:02:02.596 --> 0:02:04.556
<v Speaker 1>be helpful to a listener who hasn't had a chance

0:02:04.596 --> 0:02:07.236
<v Speaker 1>to read the story, that would be great. Yes. I

0:02:07.276 --> 0:02:11.836
<v Speaker 1>wrote it several months ago when we were first hearing

0:02:11.956 --> 0:02:16.556
<v Speaker 1>news of a pandemic in China and it was starting

0:02:16.636 --> 0:02:22.076
<v Speaker 1>to really affect Italy at that point. And my wife

0:02:22.556 --> 0:02:27.356
<v Speaker 1>had the previous year been to Anchor Vat in Cambodia

0:02:27.556 --> 0:02:30.996
<v Speaker 1>and a monk gave her this red bracelet, and for

0:02:31.036 --> 0:02:35.196
<v Speaker 1>some inexplicable reason, it was still on her wrist a

0:02:35.276 --> 0:02:39.996
<v Speaker 1>year and some change later, and it became this sort

0:02:39.996 --> 0:02:42.116
<v Speaker 1>of obsession. Every day I would look at this bracelet

0:02:42.116 --> 0:02:44.676
<v Speaker 1>and just think, like, what kind of mystical powers to

0:02:44.876 --> 0:02:48.116
<v Speaker 1>this monk put into this string bracelet? Because there's no

0:02:48.196 --> 0:02:51.236
<v Speaker 1>reason why it shouldn't have fallen off because she wore

0:02:51.276 --> 0:02:53.516
<v Speaker 1>it every day, She never took it off, she showered

0:02:53.556 --> 0:02:57.036
<v Speaker 1>with it, she lived her life with it, and it

0:02:57.196 --> 0:03:00.516
<v Speaker 1>still hung in there. And so I thought that I

0:03:00.556 --> 0:03:05.636
<v Speaker 1>would write a story about marking time and dealing with

0:03:05.676 --> 0:03:10.796
<v Speaker 1>a pandemic and the persistence of this string. In the story.

0:03:10.956 --> 0:03:13.916
<v Speaker 1>The bracelet does have exactly that kind of mystical staying

0:03:13.916 --> 0:03:17.076
<v Speaker 1>power that you were just describing. And yet it seems

0:03:17.076 --> 0:03:19.356
<v Speaker 1>to be getting under your skin. Your wife is wearing

0:03:19.356 --> 0:03:22.556
<v Speaker 1>it on her skin, but it's getting under your skin, absolutely,

0:03:22.836 --> 0:03:25.036
<v Speaker 1>And that's one of the most mysterious and I think

0:03:25.236 --> 0:03:28.316
<v Speaker 1>fascinating things about the story, at least to me. Why

0:03:28.356 --> 0:03:30.596
<v Speaker 1>do you think it is getting under your skin? I mean,

0:03:30.636 --> 0:03:32.076
<v Speaker 1>I know in the story you don't quite tell us,

0:03:32.116 --> 0:03:34.756
<v Speaker 1>so I don't it's not a spoiler, but I'm wondering

0:03:34.756 --> 0:03:36.516
<v Speaker 1>if you would just reflect on it a little bit.

0:03:37.516 --> 0:03:41.916
<v Speaker 1>I have no idea because it's so innocuous. It's just

0:03:41.996 --> 0:03:45.236
<v Speaker 1>this red bracelet. It does not interfere with my life.

0:03:45.596 --> 0:03:50.916
<v Speaker 1>It has actually since fallen off. So what is this thing?

0:03:51.396 --> 0:03:54.556
<v Speaker 1>And why do I care so much about it? And

0:03:54.596 --> 0:03:57.196
<v Speaker 1>I still don't really have any answers. But I also

0:03:57.276 --> 0:04:01.756
<v Speaker 1>think it was a distraction to become fixated on this

0:04:01.796 --> 0:04:03.596
<v Speaker 1>little bracelet. I mean, it was a way to pass

0:04:03.636 --> 0:04:07.836
<v Speaker 1>some of the time. It's a very prescient story, given

0:04:07.876 --> 0:04:10.076
<v Speaker 1>that you wrote it before we in the US were

0:04:10.116 --> 0:04:13.796
<v Speaker 1>starting to go under lockdown. It reads as though it

0:04:13.836 --> 0:04:15.436
<v Speaker 1>had been written by someone who had already been in

0:04:15.476 --> 0:04:18.636
<v Speaker 1>lockdown for a long time, and that's kind of extraordinary

0:04:18.796 --> 0:04:22.156
<v Speaker 1>in and of itself. You and she had been to

0:04:22.196 --> 0:04:25.516
<v Speaker 1>Italy not so long previously, right, we had. We went

0:04:25.516 --> 0:04:29.436
<v Speaker 1>to Italy last summer and it was a great trip. So,

0:04:30.236 --> 0:04:33.236
<v Speaker 1>you know, I think because we travel a lot, I

0:04:33.276 --> 0:04:35.116
<v Speaker 1>was thinking about what would it be like to be

0:04:35.196 --> 0:04:37.996
<v Speaker 1>forced to stay in one place for a year. Little

0:04:38.036 --> 0:04:42.076
<v Speaker 1>did I know that we would indeed be forced to

0:04:42.116 --> 0:04:46.236
<v Speaker 1>stay in a place for a year or more, who knows. So,

0:04:46.876 --> 0:04:49.196
<v Speaker 1>you know, I think it was just prescient as the

0:04:49.236 --> 0:04:52.876
<v Speaker 1>word I had on the show a while back, Andy Strominger,

0:04:52.956 --> 0:04:55.116
<v Speaker 1>who's a physicist who's often credited as one of the

0:04:55.116 --> 0:04:58.356
<v Speaker 1>founders of string theory in physics, and so I immediately

0:04:58.396 --> 0:05:00.916
<v Speaker 1>wondered when I saw the title of your story, which

0:05:00.956 --> 0:05:03.276
<v Speaker 1>is of course in part about a string, whether you

0:05:03.316 --> 0:05:07.236
<v Speaker 1>were trying to refer in any way to this nearly mystical,

0:05:07.276 --> 0:05:09.716
<v Speaker 1>though the physicists don't think of his mystical idea that

0:05:09.956 --> 0:05:12.876
<v Speaker 1>the entire universe is constructed out of a series of strings.

0:05:13.236 --> 0:05:14.956
<v Speaker 1>Was that that must have been somehow in your mind.

0:05:15.316 --> 0:05:17.916
<v Speaker 1>It was definitely in my mind, not in terms of

0:05:18.636 --> 0:05:24.396
<v Speaker 1>technical application, but certainly the underlying concepts of string theory

0:05:24.796 --> 0:05:28.756
<v Speaker 1>were on my mind. There was a clever little intersection

0:05:28.796 --> 0:05:32.556
<v Speaker 1>there between actual string theory and my theories as to

0:05:33.676 --> 0:05:37.876
<v Speaker 1>the meaning of this string. Yeah, and when you figure

0:05:37.876 --> 0:05:40.356
<v Speaker 1>that string theory starts with the idea that everything is

0:05:40.396 --> 0:05:44.796
<v Speaker 1>founded in these very, very very tiny spaces. And then

0:05:44.876 --> 0:05:46.796
<v Speaker 1>there you are in the story, as we are all

0:05:46.836 --> 0:05:51.236
<v Speaker 1>now locked in our own sometimes very tiny spaces. Yes,

0:05:51.716 --> 0:05:53.796
<v Speaker 1>it does seem to construct a whole universe out of

0:05:53.796 --> 0:05:58.476
<v Speaker 1>this space, Yes it does. One of the ideas behind

0:05:58.636 --> 0:06:03.596
<v Speaker 1>Chronicles of Now as a show is to include fictional

0:06:03.596 --> 0:06:06.836
<v Speaker 1>stories that in some way interact with the real world

0:06:07.196 --> 0:06:10.516
<v Speaker 1>and with the news that people are engage with. You

0:06:10.756 --> 0:06:13.636
<v Speaker 1>write in literally every genre there is to write in

0:06:13.676 --> 0:06:17.876
<v Speaker 1>so far as I can tell, memoir, nonfiction, essay, the

0:06:17.956 --> 0:06:22.556
<v Speaker 1>op ed form, fiction, short and long. As far as

0:06:22.556 --> 0:06:24.156
<v Speaker 1>I can make out, there is no genre in which

0:06:24.196 --> 0:06:26.076
<v Speaker 1>you're not comfortable ring. I don't actually know if you've

0:06:26.076 --> 0:06:28.276
<v Speaker 1>published poetry. Maybe you have as well. I am a

0:06:28.356 --> 0:06:30.956
<v Speaker 1>very bad poet. I published a couple of poems when

0:06:30.956 --> 0:06:32.956
<v Speaker 1>I was much younger that were very, very bad. I'm

0:06:32.996 --> 0:06:34.716
<v Speaker 1>not it's not my thing. It's not my genre. I

0:06:34.796 --> 0:06:37.756
<v Speaker 1>love reading poetry, but I am not skilled at writing it,

0:06:37.796 --> 0:06:41.196
<v Speaker 1>and that's totally fine. We cannot do everything. It's nice

0:06:41.236 --> 0:06:45.276
<v Speaker 1>to know that you're human. Tell me what when you

0:06:45.316 --> 0:06:47.876
<v Speaker 1>think about fiction that is in some way an interplay

0:06:47.916 --> 0:06:50.476
<v Speaker 1>with the real world, What is it that draws you

0:06:50.516 --> 0:06:53.116
<v Speaker 1>to sit down and write something fictional? Unto those circumstances

0:06:53.156 --> 0:06:54.836
<v Speaker 1>when you could write something that was in the form

0:06:54.836 --> 0:06:56.876
<v Speaker 1>of memoir, or you could write something that was in

0:06:56.876 --> 0:06:59.596
<v Speaker 1>the form of a commentary or an essay with all

0:06:59.596 --> 0:07:01.156
<v Speaker 1>those genres at your hands, and it's easy for me.

0:07:01.196 --> 0:07:04.316
<v Speaker 1>I can't write fiction, so I write my long form narrative.

0:07:04.316 --> 0:07:06.156
<v Speaker 1>That's all I got. But when you have such a

0:07:06.276 --> 0:07:09.636
<v Speaker 1>remarkable creative capacity, what goes into your true using which

0:07:09.636 --> 0:07:12.396
<v Speaker 1>of the genres you're going to write in. It just depends.

0:07:12.596 --> 0:07:15.876
<v Speaker 1>I wish that I had a consistent rubric, but I

0:07:16.156 --> 0:07:21.916
<v Speaker 1>oftentimes it's a matter of urgency, and if something needs

0:07:21.916 --> 0:07:28.276
<v Speaker 1>to be addressed immediately, I tend to use nonfiction because

0:07:29.516 --> 0:07:33.916
<v Speaker 1>a there's more of a demand, but also we need

0:07:33.996 --> 0:07:37.796
<v Speaker 1>help in processing the world that we're living in. That's

0:07:37.796 --> 0:07:40.796
<v Speaker 1>certainly what I look to other writers for. So I

0:07:40.836 --> 0:07:43.476
<v Speaker 1>feel that urgency and I write something to respond to

0:07:44.756 --> 0:07:49.596
<v Speaker 1>the murder of George Floyd or a pandemic or a

0:07:49.596 --> 0:07:53.556
<v Speaker 1>despot president. It just depends. But with fiction, I have

0:07:53.676 --> 0:07:56.236
<v Speaker 1>more time, and there's a different kind of urgency. I

0:07:56.316 --> 0:07:58.196
<v Speaker 1>might want to respond to the world that we're living in,

0:07:58.236 --> 0:08:01.436
<v Speaker 1>but differently, and I think I want more creative leeway

0:08:02.036 --> 0:08:03.956
<v Speaker 1>because you have to work within the bounds of reality

0:08:03.996 --> 0:08:07.796
<v Speaker 1>when you're writing nonfiction, and you get to create the

0:08:07.836 --> 0:08:11.356
<v Speaker 1>bounds of reality with as long as you do it carefully.

0:08:11.556 --> 0:08:15.156
<v Speaker 1>And so it just depends really on what I feel

0:08:15.236 --> 0:08:18.596
<v Speaker 1>is the best genre for what I want to accomplish.

0:08:18.836 --> 0:08:23.036
<v Speaker 1>You mentioned three of the leading preoccupations that we all

0:08:23.076 --> 0:08:26.316
<v Speaker 1>feel in this time, George Floyd's murder and more broadly,

0:08:26.396 --> 0:08:28.996
<v Speaker 1>in the Black Lives Matter movement that already existed but

0:08:29.036 --> 0:08:32.316
<v Speaker 1>that has further developed in reaction to the murder. You

0:08:32.396 --> 0:08:35.556
<v Speaker 1>mentioned the pandemic, and you mentioned our despotic president in

0:08:35.636 --> 0:08:39.396
<v Speaker 1>your phrase, does this seem like a stranger than usual

0:08:39.516 --> 0:08:46.116
<v Speaker 1>time too, in that these three interrelated but distinct phenomena

0:08:46.196 --> 0:08:48.396
<v Speaker 1>are kind of looming over us in this way? I

0:08:48.396 --> 0:08:50.796
<v Speaker 1>mean it feels that way to me a lot of

0:08:50.796 --> 0:08:53.636
<v Speaker 1>the time, as though it's different from what has come before.

0:08:53.716 --> 0:08:55.876
<v Speaker 1>But then I try to check myself and say, no, no, no,

0:08:55.916 --> 0:08:57.996
<v Speaker 1>you know, we had Richard Nixon, you know, and that

0:08:58.116 --> 0:09:00.916
<v Speaker 1>was itself very bad, And it's not like Black Lives

0:09:00.996 --> 0:09:03.556
<v Speaker 1>Matter is responding to one murder. It's responding to systemic

0:09:03.636 --> 0:09:06.716
<v Speaker 1>racism with hundreds of years of weight behind it. And yes,

0:09:06.716 --> 0:09:09.196
<v Speaker 1>the pandemic is worse than anything that we've experienced in

0:09:09.196 --> 0:09:11.636
<v Speaker 1>our lifetimes, but there were pandemics in the past too,

0:09:11.676 --> 0:09:13.476
<v Speaker 1>And I try to hold myself back from thinking of

0:09:13.556 --> 0:09:16.956
<v Speaker 1>this is so outlying a time. Do you have an

0:09:16.956 --> 0:09:19.556
<v Speaker 1>instinctive reaction to whether this does seem like an outlying

0:09:19.596 --> 0:09:22.356
<v Speaker 1>time to you or whether it's just more of more

0:09:22.356 --> 0:09:25.156
<v Speaker 1>concentrated version of what we're accustomed to. I think that

0:09:25.236 --> 0:09:31.676
<v Speaker 1>every generation thinks that we're experiencing something unprecedented because we're

0:09:31.716 --> 0:09:34.156
<v Speaker 1>in it and we don't have the distance of history

0:09:34.676 --> 0:09:39.676
<v Speaker 1>and time to really process and recognize and contextualize the

0:09:39.676 --> 0:09:43.836
<v Speaker 1>severity of what we're experiencing. So I think that if

0:09:43.836 --> 0:09:46.836
<v Speaker 1>you would ask people who were fighting for civil rights

0:09:46.836 --> 0:09:50.076
<v Speaker 1>in the nineteen sixties if things were our worse now,

0:09:50.276 --> 0:09:53.636
<v Speaker 1>I suspect they would have the answer of no. And

0:09:53.716 --> 0:09:57.396
<v Speaker 1>if you had asked people who were seeking freedom when

0:09:57.436 --> 0:10:00.996
<v Speaker 1>they were enslaved if things are more tumultuous now or then,

0:10:01.556 --> 0:10:04.316
<v Speaker 1>you know, they would have a different answer. Yeah. But

0:10:04.836 --> 0:10:08.516
<v Speaker 1>we can only know our own lives and our own realities.

0:10:09.196 --> 0:10:15.556
<v Speaker 1>This reality despite the severe tumult that we've seen in history.

0:10:16.076 --> 0:10:18.516
<v Speaker 1>I mean, things are really fucked up right now. And

0:10:19.676 --> 0:10:23.636
<v Speaker 1>it's particularly fucked up because throughout history we have relied

0:10:23.676 --> 0:10:26.476
<v Speaker 1>on checks and balances, and we have expected that at

0:10:26.556 --> 0:10:29.116
<v Speaker 1>least one branch of the government would do its job.

0:10:30.276 --> 0:10:33.236
<v Speaker 1>I myself have the instinct that the one check that

0:10:33.316 --> 0:10:34.956
<v Speaker 1>has done sort of okay. I mean, I feel like

0:10:34.996 --> 0:10:37.636
<v Speaker 1>Congress has not done very well. The House of Representatives

0:10:37.636 --> 0:10:40.156
<v Speaker 1>didnt impeach the president, but wasn't enough to get him removed,

0:10:40.676 --> 0:10:43.036
<v Speaker 1>so that was not a very effective check. It was something,

0:10:43.476 --> 0:10:45.996
<v Speaker 1>But I sort of have the feeling that when Trump

0:10:46.036 --> 0:10:48.356
<v Speaker 1>has directly violated the law as opposed to when he's

0:10:48.436 --> 0:10:51.356
<v Speaker 1>violated all of our norms of decency, when nothing happens

0:10:51.876 --> 0:10:54.596
<v Speaker 1>when he's violated the law, the courts have to some

0:10:54.716 --> 0:10:59.676
<v Speaker 1>degree checked him. Yes, but it's not enough, and we

0:10:59.756 --> 0:11:04.076
<v Speaker 1>can't trust the courts because Trump is installing so many

0:11:04.836 --> 0:11:07.956
<v Speaker 1>conservative judges. And there's actually nothing wrong with being conservative,

0:11:07.996 --> 0:11:11.476
<v Speaker 1>but the conservatives that he's appointing are They are far

0:11:11.556 --> 0:11:16.716
<v Speaker 1>more than conservative. They're rapidly conservative and incredibly dangerous to

0:11:16.916 --> 0:11:21.276
<v Speaker 1>civil liberties and women's bodily autonomy. And so, yes, we

0:11:21.316 --> 0:11:23.716
<v Speaker 1>can look at some of the pushback the courts have

0:11:23.956 --> 0:11:28.196
<v Speaker 1>engaged in and continue to hope that they will do so,

0:11:28.516 --> 0:11:32.356
<v Speaker 1>but I think it's tenuous at best. I will say

0:11:32.356 --> 0:11:35.876
<v Speaker 1>that Neil Gorsuch did surprise me with his decision in

0:11:35.916 --> 0:11:40.316
<v Speaker 1>the LGBTQ Title seven case. Yes, not that he's not

0:11:40.436 --> 0:11:42.956
<v Speaker 1>genuinely and deeply conservative. He just seemed prepared in that

0:11:43.036 --> 0:11:46.516
<v Speaker 1>instance to follow his conservative judicial philosophy to a result

0:11:46.836 --> 0:11:50.316
<v Speaker 1>that the liberals also agreed with. I think everyone was surprised,

0:11:50.556 --> 0:11:53.356
<v Speaker 1>and I have no doubt that the President was very

0:11:53.396 --> 0:11:57.916
<v Speaker 1>surprised because his judges are not necessarily voting the way

0:11:57.956 --> 0:12:03.476
<v Speaker 1>he would have expected them to, and that's encouraging. We'll

0:12:03.516 --> 0:12:07.316
<v Speaker 1>see how long it holds out. And I think it's

0:12:07.316 --> 0:12:11.316
<v Speaker 1>really heartbreaking that so much of the fate of the

0:12:11.356 --> 0:12:15.116
<v Speaker 1>country lies in the hands of an elderly woman who

0:12:15.276 --> 0:12:20.796
<v Speaker 1>is very ill and deserves to retire and deserves to

0:12:20.836 --> 0:12:25.596
<v Speaker 1>convalesce and try and overcome cancer without having to also

0:12:25.716 --> 0:12:29.156
<v Speaker 1>work a full time job as a Supreme Court justice.

0:12:29.196 --> 0:12:32.236
<v Speaker 1>I think it's really you know, the Republic should not

0:12:32.276 --> 0:12:34.876
<v Speaker 1>come down to this, but here we are. I will

0:12:34.876 --> 0:12:37.236
<v Speaker 1>say for Justice Kinsbury that she is one tough lady.

0:12:37.476 --> 0:12:39.476
<v Speaker 1>She is, But I agree that it's not good for

0:12:39.476 --> 0:12:41.316
<v Speaker 1>the fate of the Republic to rest on the health

0:12:41.356 --> 0:12:44.876
<v Speaker 1>of one of the justices. No, we'll be right back

0:12:54.916 --> 0:12:57.636
<v Speaker 1>returning to the fiction side of things. Who are the

0:12:57.676 --> 0:13:02.636
<v Speaker 1>writers contemporary writers that you find most insightful when you're

0:13:02.676 --> 0:13:05.476
<v Speaker 1>looking for writers who talk not just about, as you

0:13:05.516 --> 0:13:08.556
<v Speaker 1>were describing, changing the bounds of imagination, but also on

0:13:09.436 --> 0:13:12.716
<v Speaker 1>reflecting on contemporary events through their fiction. Is there anybody

0:13:12.756 --> 0:13:14.796
<v Speaker 1>that you really like? I mean, I think they do

0:13:14.836 --> 0:13:18.516
<v Speaker 1>it in ways that are more implicit than explicit. But

0:13:19.276 --> 0:13:25.476
<v Speaker 1>Yagyas is outstanding and does that I think incredibly well.

0:13:26.276 --> 0:13:30.116
<v Speaker 1>So does Danielle Evans, who is a short story writer.

0:13:30.196 --> 0:13:32.356
<v Speaker 1>She also, I think, is working on a novel, so

0:13:32.756 --> 0:13:36.836
<v Speaker 1>she can do both and does so with real talent.

0:13:37.596 --> 0:13:43.516
<v Speaker 1>Alexander Chi writes really well to the contemporary moment and

0:13:43.796 --> 0:13:48.476
<v Speaker 1>also beyond. His work is beautiful. And so those are

0:13:48.476 --> 0:13:52.156
<v Speaker 1>three authors that come to mind when you look at

0:13:52.196 --> 0:13:55.356
<v Speaker 1>the kind of work that you want to do going forward.

0:13:55.916 --> 0:14:00.276
<v Speaker 1>Do you think of yourself as prime to write more novels,

0:14:00.356 --> 0:14:03.756
<v Speaker 1>to write more essays, to write more memoir How do

0:14:03.796 --> 0:14:07.076
<v Speaker 1>you think of your own trajectory as a writer. I'm

0:14:07.116 --> 0:14:09.516
<v Speaker 1>going to be doing all of the above. I have

0:14:09.596 --> 0:14:14.516
<v Speaker 1>two novels for its coming, and three nonfiction books and

0:14:14.596 --> 0:14:17.756
<v Speaker 1>a comic and a movie and a TV show. So

0:14:17.796 --> 0:14:20.996
<v Speaker 1>I think I just counted six books, one one, two

0:14:21.036 --> 0:14:23.116
<v Speaker 1>movies and a TV shows. That write six books, one movie,

0:14:23.156 --> 0:14:25.636
<v Speaker 1>one TV show. Yeah, and a comic. How do you

0:14:25.676 --> 0:14:29.596
<v Speaker 1>literally find the time to produce that much content? I

0:14:29.636 --> 0:14:32.596
<v Speaker 1>have no idea. I don't have children. Do you write

0:14:32.596 --> 0:14:34.156
<v Speaker 1>every morning? And do you write all day every day?

0:14:34.196 --> 0:14:38.196
<v Speaker 1>Do you write all night? I'm a night writer. I

0:14:38.236 --> 0:14:40.876
<v Speaker 1>don't really get much done that's useful in the morning

0:14:40.956 --> 0:14:44.836
<v Speaker 1>except work on my podcast, and I write generally in

0:14:44.876 --> 0:14:48.676
<v Speaker 1>the evenings, and it just depends. Some days all write

0:14:48.676 --> 0:14:50.716
<v Speaker 1>for seven or eight hours, and some days all write

0:14:50.716 --> 0:14:53.756
<v Speaker 1>for ten or twenty minutes. Tell me if you wait

0:14:53.756 --> 0:14:56.956
<v Speaker 1>a little bit about your podcast. I co host a

0:14:56.956 --> 0:15:00.836
<v Speaker 1>podcast with Trussey McMillan Cottam called Here to Slay. We

0:15:00.916 --> 0:15:06.076
<v Speaker 1>originally conceived of it as a black feminist daily show,

0:15:06.156 --> 0:15:10.916
<v Speaker 1>so responding to current events and engaging with the news

0:15:10.956 --> 0:15:17.036
<v Speaker 1>and significant people from a black feminist perspective, and that's

0:15:17.516 --> 0:15:20.036
<v Speaker 1>what we do and it's been a lot of fun.

0:15:20.476 --> 0:15:23.196
<v Speaker 1>We're now in our second season and for the first

0:15:23.196 --> 0:15:27.556
<v Speaker 1>thirteen episodes, we're focusing on COVID and how it's affecting people,

0:15:28.156 --> 0:15:30.756
<v Speaker 1>and we're especially looking at the people who do not

0:15:30.916 --> 0:15:33.796
<v Speaker 1>normally get attention, So we're looking at how is it

0:15:33.836 --> 0:15:38.316
<v Speaker 1>affecting sex workers, How is it affecting, for example, drug addicts.

0:15:39.076 --> 0:15:41.876
<v Speaker 1>What do you do when there's nowhere to go to

0:15:41.916 --> 0:15:44.876
<v Speaker 1>get what you need. I'm learning a lot and seeing

0:15:44.916 --> 0:15:49.396
<v Speaker 1>a lot, and it's quite something when you look back

0:15:49.436 --> 0:15:52.156
<v Speaker 1>on the episodes that you've done so far, what are

0:15:52.156 --> 0:15:54.396
<v Speaker 1>the things that you've been most surprised by? I mean

0:15:54.636 --> 0:15:56.836
<v Speaker 1>curious to know whether it is some theme or trend

0:15:56.836 --> 0:15:59.996
<v Speaker 1>that you see emerging from those interviews. It's really interesting

0:16:00.036 --> 0:16:03.516
<v Speaker 1>to see how people are finding a way to survive

0:16:03.636 --> 0:16:07.876
<v Speaker 1>and to make life in this virtual world work. And

0:16:08.036 --> 0:16:11.236
<v Speaker 1>it's just interesting to see that people are able to adapt.

0:16:11.756 --> 0:16:14.636
<v Speaker 1>And the other thing we've noticed that every black woman

0:16:14.636 --> 0:16:17.356
<v Speaker 1>we've spoken to has said, this is the first time

0:16:17.396 --> 0:16:19.436
<v Speaker 1>in her life that she's been able to take a break,

0:16:20.276 --> 0:16:22.676
<v Speaker 1>and that has been really eye opening. And I think

0:16:22.716 --> 0:16:24.556
<v Speaker 1>both Trusty and I would agree that we're in the

0:16:24.596 --> 0:16:27.236
<v Speaker 1>same situation because we have so many jobs, and we

0:16:27.276 --> 0:16:30.196
<v Speaker 1>work so hard, we support families, you know, we have

0:16:30.196 --> 0:16:33.356
<v Speaker 1>a lot of responsibilities, so you don't really have that

0:16:33.476 --> 0:16:36.476
<v Speaker 1>opportunity to rest. And then the world said, nope, you

0:16:36.516 --> 0:16:40.716
<v Speaker 1>are going to rest. And so despite the anxieties of

0:16:40.756 --> 0:16:45.916
<v Speaker 1>the economy and this disease and how it disproportionately is

0:16:45.956 --> 0:16:48.756
<v Speaker 1>affecting Black people, the black women that we're speaking to

0:16:48.956 --> 0:16:52.236
<v Speaker 1>are all saying, I am resting for the first time

0:16:52.236 --> 0:16:56.396
<v Speaker 1>in my life. And you know, that really gave us

0:16:56.436 --> 0:16:59.436
<v Speaker 1>pause and continues to give us pause. If we end

0:16:59.516 --> 0:17:04.316
<v Speaker 1>up in a space where we're reopening without a vaccine,

0:17:04.476 --> 0:17:07.996
<v Speaker 1>which seems like one of the possibilities, what happens to

0:17:08.036 --> 0:17:10.676
<v Speaker 1>people who are having an opportunity to rest now. I mean,

0:17:10.716 --> 0:17:14.316
<v Speaker 1>as they're basically told, sorry, rest time is over. You know,

0:17:14.356 --> 0:17:16.996
<v Speaker 1>you need to be back in your job, essential job,

0:17:17.596 --> 0:17:19.916
<v Speaker 1>and you're not going to be able to protect yourself.

0:17:19.956 --> 0:17:23.276
<v Speaker 1>And that's just the way our capitalist system is set

0:17:23.356 --> 0:17:26.396
<v Speaker 1>up right now. How do you perceive that people will

0:17:26.436 --> 0:17:29.396
<v Speaker 1>respond to that, I don't know. I think it's a

0:17:29.396 --> 0:17:31.316
<v Speaker 1>really good question, and I think it's one that we

0:17:31.396 --> 0:17:36.636
<v Speaker 1>are going to see the answer two in coming weeks

0:17:36.676 --> 0:17:41.076
<v Speaker 1>and months, and so I don't know. I think that

0:17:41.116 --> 0:17:43.356
<v Speaker 1>there are people who can't afford not to go back,

0:17:43.476 --> 0:17:46.076
<v Speaker 1>who are going to have to take that risk, and

0:17:46.116 --> 0:17:48.556
<v Speaker 1>so we're going to continue to see the class divide widen,

0:17:49.236 --> 0:17:51.076
<v Speaker 1>and we're going to continue to see that we are

0:17:51.076 --> 0:17:55.636
<v Speaker 1>willing to sacrifice people for our comfort and it's going

0:17:57.636 --> 0:17:59.676
<v Speaker 1>Thank you very much for your time, Roxane, and thank

0:17:59.716 --> 0:18:02.316
<v Speaker 1>you for joining me, and congratulations on your podcast and

0:18:02.436 --> 0:18:06.316
<v Speaker 1>on having your story String Theory inaugurating the Chronicles of Now.

0:18:06.476 --> 0:18:16.156
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much, thank you, I appreciate it. You

0:18:16.196 --> 0:18:19.516
<v Speaker 1>can listen to Roxanegey's short Story String Theory on the

0:18:19.596 --> 0:18:22.836
<v Speaker 1>Chronicles of Now podcast, which you can find wherever you

0:18:22.876 --> 0:18:27.556
<v Speaker 1>get your podcasts. I highly recommend it. Deep background is

0:18:27.596 --> 0:18:30.676
<v Speaker 1>brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Lydia

0:18:30.756 --> 0:18:34.516
<v Speaker 1>gene Coott, with mastering by Jason Gambrell and Martin Gonzalez.

0:18:34.836 --> 0:18:38.356
<v Speaker 1>Our showrunner is Sophie mckibbon. Our theme music is composed

0:18:38.356 --> 0:18:42.236
<v Speaker 1>by Luis GERA special thanks to the Pushkin Brass, Malcolm Gladwell,

0:18:42.396 --> 0:18:46.396
<v Speaker 1>Jacob Weisberg, and Mia Loebell. I'm Noah Feldman. I also

0:18:46.396 --> 0:18:49.076
<v Speaker 1>write a regular column for Bloomberg Opinion, which you can

0:18:49.116 --> 0:18:53.716
<v Speaker 1>find at Bloomberg dot com slash Feldman. To discover Bloomberg's

0:18:53.716 --> 0:18:58.316
<v Speaker 1>original slate of podcasts, go to Bloomberg dot com slash Podcasts.

0:18:59.036 --> 0:19:01.316
<v Speaker 1>And one last thing. I just wrote a book called

0:19:01.436 --> 0:19:04.356
<v Speaker 1>The Arab Winter, a Tragedy. I would be delighted if

0:19:04.356 --> 0:19:07.316
<v Speaker 1>you checked it out. If you liked what you heard today,

0:19:07.356 --> 0:19:10.356
<v Speaker 1>please write a review or tell a friend. You can

0:19:10.356 --> 0:19:12.276
<v Speaker 1>always let me know what you think on Twitter. My

0:19:12.396 --> 0:19:16.356
<v Speaker 1>handle is Noah R. Feltman. This is deep background