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Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show

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Speaker 1: where we usually explore the stories behind the stories in

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Speaker 1: the news. I'm Noah Feldment. Today, though, we're doing something

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Speaker 1: a little different. We're going to talk about a story

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Speaker 1: inspired by the news. Pushkin, the podcast production company that

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Speaker 1: makes Deep Background, just launched a new show called The

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Speaker 1: Chronicles of Now It's pretty cool. Each week on this podcast,

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Speaker 1: you can listen to a fictional short story inspired by

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Speaker 1: real news. The show launched with a short story by

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Speaker 1: Roxanne Gay, a story I really loved. It's about life

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Speaker 1: under lockdown because of a pandemic, a lot like what's

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Speaker 1: happening now, but a little more intense. I just thought,

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Speaker 1: what would it be like to live with your partner

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Speaker 1: in isolation for a year. Roxanne Gay is the author

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Speaker 1: of the novel An Untamed State, a best selling collection

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Speaker 1: of essay is called Bad Feminist, and the best selling

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Speaker 1: memoir Hunger. She's a contributing opinion writer for The New

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Speaker 1: York Times, and she's a fascinating person who's always at

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Speaker 1: the center of the cultural conversation, often leading it. I

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Speaker 1: wanted to talk to her about her new short story,

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Speaker 1: her work in many different genres and what we can

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Speaker 1: learn when we turn news into fiction. Roxanne, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for being here. Chronicles of Now is starting

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Speaker 1: with an episode featuring your short story String Theory, which

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Speaker 1: is an extraordinary story. I wonder if you would begin

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Speaker 1: by just saying a few words about it. It's, of course,

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Speaker 1: never the simplest thing to explain a short story, because

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Speaker 1: that's why you wrote the short story, not to have

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Speaker 1: to explain it. But if there's anything you think would

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Speaker 1: be helpful to a listener who hasn't had a chance

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Speaker 1: to read the story, that would be great. Yes. I

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Speaker 1: wrote it several months ago when we were first hearing

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Speaker 1: news of a pandemic in China and it was starting

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Speaker 1: to really affect Italy at that point. And my wife

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Speaker 1: had the previous year been to Anchor Vat in Cambodia

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Speaker 1: and a monk gave her this red bracelet, and for

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Speaker 1: some inexplicable reason, it was still on her wrist a

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Speaker 1: year and some change later, and it became this sort

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Speaker 1: of obsession. Every day I would look at this bracelet

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Speaker 1: and just think, like, what kind of mystical powers to

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Speaker 1: this monk put into this string bracelet? Because there's no

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Speaker 1: reason why it shouldn't have fallen off because she wore

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Speaker 1: it every day, She never took it off, she showered

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Speaker 1: with it, she lived her life with it, and it

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Speaker 1: still hung in there. And so I thought that I

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Speaker 1: would write a story about marking time and dealing with

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Speaker 1: a pandemic and the persistence of this string. In the story.

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Speaker 1: The bracelet does have exactly that kind of mystical staying

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Speaker 1: power that you were just describing. And yet it seems

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Speaker 1: to be getting under your skin. Your wife is wearing

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Speaker 1: it on her skin, but it's getting under your skin, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: And that's one of the most mysterious and I think

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Speaker 1: fascinating things about the story, at least to me. Why

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Speaker 1: do you think it is getting under your skin? I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know in the story you don't quite tell us,

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Speaker 1: so I don't it's not a spoiler, but I'm wondering

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Speaker 1: if you would just reflect on it a little bit.

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Speaker 1: I have no idea because it's so innocuous. It's just

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Speaker 1: this red bracelet. It does not interfere with my life.

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Speaker 1: It has actually since fallen off. So what is this thing?

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Speaker 1: And why do I care so much about it? And

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Speaker 1: I still don't really have any answers. But I also

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Speaker 1: think it was a distraction to become fixated on this

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Speaker 1: little bracelet. I mean, it was a way to pass

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Speaker 1: some of the time. It's a very prescient story, given

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Speaker 1: that you wrote it before we in the US were

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Speaker 1: starting to go under lockdown. It reads as though it

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Speaker 1: had been written by someone who had already been in

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Speaker 1: lockdown for a long time, and that's kind of extraordinary

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Speaker 1: in and of itself. You and she had been to

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Speaker 1: Italy not so long previously, right, we had. We went

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Speaker 1: to Italy last summer and it was a great trip. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think because we travel a lot, I

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Speaker 1: was thinking about what would it be like to be

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Speaker 1: forced to stay in one place for a year. Little

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Speaker 1: did I know that we would indeed be forced to

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Speaker 1: stay in a place for a year or more, who knows. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think it was just prescient as the

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Speaker 1: word I had on the show a while back, Andy Strominger,

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Speaker 1: who's a physicist who's often credited as one of the

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Speaker 1: founders of string theory in physics, and so I immediately

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Speaker 1: wondered when I saw the title of your story, which

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Speaker 1: is of course in part about a string, whether you

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Speaker 1: were trying to refer in any way to this nearly mystical,

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Speaker 1: though the physicists don't think of his mystical idea that

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Speaker 1: the entire universe is constructed out of a series of strings.

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Speaker 1: Was that that must have been somehow in your mind.

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Speaker 1: It was definitely in my mind, not in terms of

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Speaker 1: technical application, but certainly the underlying concepts of string theory

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Speaker 1: were on my mind. There was a clever little intersection

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Speaker 1: there between actual string theory and my theories as to

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Speaker 1: the meaning of this string. Yeah, and when you figure

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Speaker 1: that string theory starts with the idea that everything is

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Speaker 1: founded in these very, very very tiny spaces. And then

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Speaker 1: there you are in the story, as we are all

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Speaker 1: now locked in our own sometimes very tiny spaces. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it does seem to construct a whole universe out of

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Speaker 1: this space, Yes it does. One of the ideas behind

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Speaker 1: Chronicles of Now as a show is to include fictional

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Speaker 1: stories that in some way interact with the real world

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Speaker 1: and with the news that people are engage with. You

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Speaker 1: write in literally every genre there is to write in

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Speaker 1: so far as I can tell, memoir, nonfiction, essay, the

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Speaker 1: op ed form, fiction, short and long. As far as

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Speaker 1: I can make out, there is no genre in which

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Speaker 1: you're not comfortable ring. I don't actually know if you've

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Speaker 1: published poetry. Maybe you have as well. I am a

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Speaker 1: very bad poet. I published a couple of poems when

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Speaker 1: I was much younger that were very, very bad. I'm

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Speaker 1: not it's not my thing. It's not my genre. I

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Speaker 1: love reading poetry, but I am not skilled at writing it,

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Speaker 1: and that's totally fine. We cannot do everything. It's nice

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Speaker 1: to know that you're human. Tell me what when you

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Speaker 1: think about fiction that is in some way an interplay

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Speaker 1: with the real world, What is it that draws you

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Speaker 1: to sit down and write something fictional? Unto those circumstances

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Speaker 1: when you could write something that was in the form

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Speaker 1: of memoir, or you could write something that was in

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Speaker 1: the form of a commentary or an essay with all

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Speaker 1: those genres at your hands, and it's easy for me.

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Speaker 1: I can't write fiction, so I write my long form narrative.

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Speaker 1: That's all I got. But when you have such a

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Speaker 1: remarkable creative capacity, what goes into your true using which

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Speaker 1: of the genres you're going to write in. It just depends.

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Speaker 1: I wish that I had a consistent rubric, but I

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Speaker 1: oftentimes it's a matter of urgency, and if something needs

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Speaker 1: to be addressed immediately, I tend to use nonfiction because

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Speaker 1: a there's more of a demand, but also we need

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Speaker 1: help in processing the world that we're living in. That's

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Speaker 1: certainly what I look to other writers for. So I

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Speaker 1: feel that urgency and I write something to respond to

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Speaker 1: the murder of George Floyd or a pandemic or a

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Speaker 1: despot president. It just depends. But with fiction, I have

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Speaker 1: more time, and there's a different kind of urgency. I

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Speaker 1: might want to respond to the world that we're living in,

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Speaker 1: but differently, and I think I want more creative leeway

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Speaker 1: because you have to work within the bounds of reality

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Speaker 1: when you're writing nonfiction, and you get to create the

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Speaker 1: bounds of reality with as long as you do it carefully.

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Speaker 1: And so it just depends really on what I feel

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Speaker 1: is the best genre for what I want to accomplish.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned three of the leading preoccupations that we all

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Speaker 1: feel in this time, George Floyd's murder and more broadly,

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Speaker 1: in the Black Lives Matter movement that already existed but

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Speaker 1: that has further developed in reaction to the murder. You

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Speaker 1: mentioned the pandemic, and you mentioned our despotic president in

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Speaker 1: your phrase, does this seem like a stranger than usual

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Speaker 1: time too, in that these three interrelated but distinct phenomena

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Speaker 1: are kind of looming over us in this way? I

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Speaker 1: mean it feels that way to me a lot of

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Speaker 1: the time, as though it's different from what has come before.

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Speaker 1: But then I try to check myself and say, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: you know, we had Richard Nixon, you know, and that

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Speaker 1: was itself very bad, And it's not like Black Lives

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Speaker 1: Matter is responding to one murder. It's responding to systemic

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Speaker 1: racism with hundreds of years of weight behind it. And yes,

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Speaker 1: the pandemic is worse than anything that we've experienced in

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Speaker 1: our lifetimes, but there were pandemics in the past too,

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Speaker 1: And I try to hold myself back from thinking of

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Speaker 1: this is so outlying a time. Do you have an

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Speaker 1: instinctive reaction to whether this does seem like an outlying

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Speaker 1: time to you or whether it's just more of more

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Speaker 1: concentrated version of what we're accustomed to. I think that

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Speaker 1: every generation thinks that we're experiencing something unprecedented because we're

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Speaker 1: in it and we don't have the distance of history

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Speaker 1: and time to really process and recognize and contextualize the

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Speaker 1: severity of what we're experiencing. So I think that if

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Speaker 1: you would ask people who were fighting for civil rights

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties if things were our worse now,

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Speaker 1: I suspect they would have the answer of no. And

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Speaker 1: if you had asked people who were seeking freedom when

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Speaker 1: they were enslaved if things are more tumultuous now or then,

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Speaker 1: you know, they would have a different answer. Yeah. But

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Speaker 1: we can only know our own lives and our own realities.

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Speaker 1: This reality despite the severe tumult that we've seen in history.

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Speaker 1: I mean, things are really fucked up right now. And

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Speaker 1: it's particularly fucked up because throughout history we have relied

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Speaker 1: on checks and balances, and we have expected that at

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Speaker 1: least one branch of the government would do its job.

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Speaker 1: I myself have the instinct that the one check that

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Speaker 1: has done sort of okay. I mean, I feel like

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Speaker 1: Congress has not done very well. The House of Representatives

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Speaker 1: didnt impeach the president, but wasn't enough to get him removed,

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Speaker 1: so that was not a very effective check. It was something,

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Speaker 1: But I sort of have the feeling that when Trump

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Speaker 1: has directly violated the law as opposed to when he's

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Speaker 1: violated all of our norms of decency, when nothing happens

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Speaker 1: when he's violated the law, the courts have to some

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Speaker 1: degree checked him. Yes, but it's not enough, and we

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Speaker 1: can't trust the courts because Trump is installing so many

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Speaker 1: conservative judges. And there's actually nothing wrong with being conservative,

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Speaker 1: but the conservatives that he's appointing are They are far

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Speaker 1: more than conservative. They're rapidly conservative and incredibly dangerous to

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Speaker 1: civil liberties and women's bodily autonomy. And so, yes, we

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Speaker 1: can look at some of the pushback the courts have

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Speaker 1: engaged in and continue to hope that they will do so,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's tenuous at best. I will say

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Speaker 1: that Neil Gorsuch did surprise me with his decision in

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Speaker 1: the LGBTQ Title seven case. Yes, not that he's not

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Speaker 1: genuinely and deeply conservative. He just seemed prepared in that

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Speaker 1: instance to follow his conservative judicial philosophy to a result

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Speaker 1: that the liberals also agreed with. I think everyone was surprised,

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Speaker 1: and I have no doubt that the President was very

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Speaker 1: surprised because his judges are not necessarily voting the way

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Speaker 1: he would have expected them to, and that's encouraging. We'll

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Speaker 1: see how long it holds out. And I think it's

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Speaker 1: really heartbreaking that so much of the fate of the

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Speaker 1: country lies in the hands of an elderly woman who

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Speaker 1: is very ill and deserves to retire and deserves to

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Speaker 1: convalesce and try and overcome cancer without having to also

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Speaker 1: work a full time job as a Supreme Court justice.

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Speaker 1: I think it's really you know, the Republic should not

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Speaker 1: come down to this, but here we are. I will

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Speaker 1: say for Justice Kinsbury that she is one tough lady.

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Speaker 1: She is, But I agree that it's not good for

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Speaker 1: the fate of the Republic to rest on the health

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Speaker 1: of one of the justices. No, we'll be right back

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Speaker 1: returning to the fiction side of things. Who are the

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Speaker 1: writers contemporary writers that you find most insightful when you're

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Speaker 1: looking for writers who talk not just about, as you

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Speaker 1: were describing, changing the bounds of imagination, but also on

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Speaker 1: reflecting on contemporary events through their fiction. Is there anybody

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Speaker 1: that you really like? I mean, I think they do

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Speaker 1: it in ways that are more implicit than explicit. But

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Speaker 1: Yagyas is outstanding and does that I think incredibly well.

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Speaker 1: So does Danielle Evans, who is a short story writer.

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Speaker 1: She also, I think, is working on a novel, so

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Speaker 1: she can do both and does so with real talent.

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Speaker 1: Alexander Chi writes really well to the contemporary moment and

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Speaker 1: also beyond. His work is beautiful. And so those are

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Speaker 1: three authors that come to mind when you look at

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Speaker 1: the kind of work that you want to do going forward.

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Speaker 1: Do you think of yourself as prime to write more novels,

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Speaker 1: to write more essays, to write more memoir How do

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Speaker 1: you think of your own trajectory as a writer. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to be doing all of the above. I have

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Speaker 1: two novels for its coming, and three nonfiction books and

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Speaker 1: a comic and a movie and a TV show. So

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Speaker 1: I think I just counted six books, one one, two

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Speaker 1: movies and a TV shows. That write six books, one movie,

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Speaker 1: one TV show. Yeah, and a comic. How do you

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Speaker 1: literally find the time to produce that much content? I

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Speaker 1: have no idea. I don't have children. Do you write

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Speaker 1: every morning? And do you write all day every day?

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Speaker 1: Do you write all night? I'm a night writer. I

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Speaker 1: don't really get much done that's useful in the morning

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Speaker 1: except work on my podcast, and I write generally in

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Speaker 1: the evenings, and it just depends. Some days all write

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Speaker 1: for seven or eight hours, and some days all write

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Speaker 1: for ten or twenty minutes. Tell me if you wait

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Speaker 1: a little bit about your podcast. I co host a

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Speaker 1: podcast with Trussey McMillan Cottam called Here to Slay. We

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Speaker 1: originally conceived of it as a black feminist daily show,

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Speaker 1: so responding to current events and engaging with the news

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Speaker 1: and significant people from a black feminist perspective, and that's

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Speaker 1: what we do and it's been a lot of fun.

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Speaker 1: We're now in our second season and for the first

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Speaker 1: thirteen episodes, we're focusing on COVID and how it's affecting people,

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Speaker 1: and we're especially looking at the people who do not

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Speaker 1: normally get attention, So we're looking at how is it

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Speaker 1: affecting sex workers, How is it affecting, for example, drug addicts.

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Speaker 1: What do you do when there's nowhere to go to

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Speaker 1: get what you need. I'm learning a lot and seeing

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Speaker 1: a lot, and it's quite something when you look back

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Speaker 1: on the episodes that you've done so far, what are

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Speaker 1: the things that you've been most surprised by? I mean

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Speaker 1: curious to know whether it is some theme or trend

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Speaker 1: that you see emerging from those interviews. It's really interesting

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Speaker 1: to see how people are finding a way to survive

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Speaker 1: and to make life in this virtual world work. And

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Speaker 1: it's just interesting to see that people are able to adapt.

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Speaker 1: And the other thing we've noticed that every black woman

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Speaker 1: we've spoken to has said, this is the first time

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Speaker 1: in her life that she's been able to take a break,

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Speaker 1: and that has been really eye opening. And I think

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Speaker 1: both Trusty and I would agree that we're in the

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Speaker 1: same situation because we have so many jobs, and we

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Speaker 1: work so hard, we support families, you know, we have

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Speaker 1: a lot of responsibilities, so you don't really have that

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Speaker 1: opportunity to rest. And then the world said, nope, you

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Speaker 1: are going to rest. And so despite the anxieties of

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Speaker 1: the economy and this disease and how it disproportionately is

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Speaker 1: affecting Black people, the black women that we're speaking to

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Speaker 1: are all saying, I am resting for the first time

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Speaker 1: in my life. And you know, that really gave us

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Speaker 1: pause and continues to give us pause. If we end

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Speaker 1: up in a space where we're reopening without a vaccine,

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Speaker 1: which seems like one of the possibilities, what happens to

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Speaker 1: people who are having an opportunity to rest now. I mean,

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Speaker 1: as they're basically told, sorry, rest time is over. You know,

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Speaker 1: you need to be back in your job, essential job,

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Speaker 1: and you're not going to be able to protect yourself.

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Speaker 1: And that's just the way our capitalist system is set

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Speaker 1: up right now. How do you perceive that people will

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Speaker 1: respond to that, I don't know. I think it's a

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Speaker 1: really good question, and I think it's one that we

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Speaker 1: are going to see the answer two in coming weeks

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Speaker 1: and months, and so I don't know. I think that

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Speaker 1: there are people who can't afford not to go back,

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Speaker 1: who are going to have to take that risk, and

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Speaker 1: so we're going to continue to see the class divide widen,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to continue to see that we are

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Speaker 1: willing to sacrifice people for our comfort and it's going

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much for your time, Roxane, and thank

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Speaker 1: you for joining me, and congratulations on your podcast and

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Speaker 1: on having your story String Theory inaugurating the Chronicles of Now.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much, thank you, I appreciate it. You

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Speaker 1: can listen to Roxanegey's short Story String Theory on the

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Speaker 1: Chronicles of Now podcast, which you can find wherever you

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Speaker 1: get your podcasts. I highly recommend it. Deep background is

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Speaker 1: brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Lydia

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Speaker 1: gene Coott, with mastering by Jason Gambrell and Martin Gonzalez.

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Speaker 1: Our showrunner is Sophie mckibbon. Our theme music is composed

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Speaker 1: by Luis GERA special thanks to the Pushkin Brass, Malcolm Gladwell,

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Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg, and Mia Loebell. I'm Noah Feldman. I also

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Speaker 1: write a regular column for Bloomberg Opinion, which you can

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Speaker 1: find at Bloomberg dot com slash Feldman. To discover Bloomberg's

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Speaker 1: original slate of podcasts, go to Bloomberg dot com slash Podcasts.

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Speaker 1: And one last thing. I just wrote a book called

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Speaker 1: The Arab Winter, a Tragedy. I would be delighted if

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Speaker 1: you checked it out. If you liked what you heard today,

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Speaker 1: please write a review or tell a friend. You can

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Speaker 1: always let me know what you think on Twitter. My

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Speaker 1: handle is Noah R. Feltman. This is deep background