WEBVTT - Consent and "Enthusiastic Maybe" 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:21.676 Pushkin. Hey everybody, this is a heads up that this 0:00:21.756 --> 0:00:27.036 episode includes discussions of sexual consent or lack thereof, so 0:00:27.276 --> 0:00:29.636 keep that in mind when you're listening. Yeah, we're going 0:00:29.676 --> 0:00:32.436 to be talking specifically about the maybes that come up 0:00:32.476 --> 0:00:35.716 in sex and how to navigate those, which, to be clear, 0:00:35.876 --> 0:00:39.956 is different from coercion and manipulation in sex, but we 0:00:40.036 --> 0:00:43.116 do talk about those topics too. So if this episode 0:00:43.116 --> 0:00:46.276 brings up some feelings for you, we have resources in 0:00:46.316 --> 0:00:54.916 our show notes. Okay, now onto the episode. Yi, Hi, Hi, 0:00:56.036 --> 0:00:59.036 and I'm calling in. I have a question for you. 0:00:59.476 --> 0:01:04.156 There has to be another way to teach consent that 0:01:04.316 --> 0:01:07.076 does not you know, just use the word yes as 0:01:07.076 --> 0:01:14.476 a stand in for consent. Amo, is this actually just 0:01:14.796 --> 0:01:17.876 from you? Is this are you asking me for a friend? 0:01:18.636 --> 0:01:24.316 How do you know? I am actually asking this question 0:01:24.436 --> 0:01:27.996 for me and my girlfriend. I love that. It's a 0:01:28.076 --> 0:01:30.356 dream come true. If I do nothing else with this podcast, 0:01:30.396 --> 0:01:34.876 I want to make your personal sex life better. I'm 0:01:34.916 --> 0:01:37.876 Emmily Nagaski and this is the Come as you Are 0:01:38.036 --> 0:01:43.916 podcast where I answer questions about sex with science. In 0:01:43.916 --> 0:01:47.556 this episode, we're talking about consent, and this is an 0:01:47.556 --> 0:01:50.476 advanced class in consent where we talk about all the 0:01:50.596 --> 0:01:54.516 nuances and power dynamics, and I want to introduce a 0:01:54.556 --> 0:02:01.276 concept I call the enthusiastic maybe all the comfortable, joyful, 0:02:01.396 --> 0:02:07.716 consensual maybes insects and how to navigate those. And here 0:02:07.756 --> 0:02:12.636 with me is the one and only producer mo Hi Emily. Hello. 0:02:12.796 --> 0:02:17.076 So this topic listeners might look at it and think, oh, 0:02:17.156 --> 0:02:21.596 I understand consent completely. It's yes and no. It's black 0:02:21.596 --> 0:02:24.636 and white. At least that is what I learned about 0:02:24.676 --> 0:02:28.836 consent on a college campus in twenty fifteen. I was 0:02:28.836 --> 0:02:31.796 taught that the only kind of consent is a verbal 0:02:32.356 --> 0:02:36.636 enthusiastic yes. Yeah. If it's not an enthusiastic yes, then 0:02:36.676 --> 0:02:39.276 it's an enthusiastic no. That seems to be yeah what 0:02:39.436 --> 0:02:42.676 young sex educators are teaching now. I recently took my 0:02:42.756 --> 0:02:47.916 first foray into TikTok sex education because you told me 0:02:48.036 --> 0:02:50.596 there were sex educators on TikTok, and the very first 0:02:50.716 --> 0:02:54.516 video I saw was like, enthusiastic consent is the only consent. 0:02:55.796 --> 0:02:59.636 I'm sure you are extremely familiar with the enthusiastic yes 0:02:59.756 --> 0:03:03.516 model because you were a peer educator on college campuses, 0:03:03.636 --> 0:03:06.516 right yep, back in the mid nineties, I was, and 0:03:06.596 --> 0:03:09.356 what I learned to teach was yes means yes. No 0:03:09.516 --> 0:03:12.716 means no, silence means no, maybe means no, I'm not 0:03:12.756 --> 0:03:16.596 sure means no. Only yes means yes. So to help 0:03:16.636 --> 0:03:20.796 explain this sort of enthusiastic consent, you say yes when 0:03:20.836 --> 0:03:23.436 you want to, When you have no fear of the 0:03:23.476 --> 0:03:26.996 consequences of saying yes or the consequences of saying no. 0:03:27.116 --> 0:03:30.756 You are fully free, right, Like, it's not only that 0:03:30.796 --> 0:03:35.196 both people are at a yes. You are enthusiastic about 0:03:35.196 --> 0:03:38.276 the sex. You're super excited about the sex you're having. 0:03:39.476 --> 0:03:42.876 There's a simplicity to the enthusiastic yes is the only 0:03:42.956 --> 0:03:45.836 kind of consent. And I can see why that is 0:03:45.916 --> 0:03:48.916 so important for people who are just starting out of 0:03:48.996 --> 0:03:53.196 having sex to learn, like enthusiastic yes, Like that's a 0:03:53.236 --> 0:03:57.236 great place to start, but it can't be the end 0:03:57.236 --> 0:04:00.356 of the conversation. I really think it's just the beginning 0:04:00.396 --> 0:04:05.196 of the conversation about consent. And like you said, enthusiastic yes, 0:04:05.556 --> 0:04:11.756 it doesn't encompass the comfortable and consensual maybees that do 0:04:11.996 --> 0:04:17.396 come up insects. Yea, And that is what I want 0:04:17.396 --> 0:04:20.156 to talk about with you today. It just pop my 0:04:20.276 --> 0:04:27.476 Lacroix Open Delicious. We're not sponsored by Lacroix. I'm just 0:04:27.516 --> 0:04:30.796 a stereotype. Okay, Emily, are you ready to hear more 0:04:30.836 --> 0:04:33.876 about my question? I am, I'm ready. As you know, 0:04:34.036 --> 0:04:36.956 we spend a lot of time together answering questions from 0:04:37.116 --> 0:04:40.476 people who call into the hotline. So recently we were 0:04:40.516 --> 0:04:44.796 talking about this concept of the enthusiastic maybe. I was like, 0:04:45.356 --> 0:04:48.596 hot day, that's new information for me, and I really 0:04:48.596 --> 0:04:51.956 love it. And then I realized, like, wait, my girlfriend 0:04:51.956 --> 0:04:55.196 and I are currently in a situation where we need 0:04:55.236 --> 0:05:00.716 help navigating and enthusiastic maybe in our relationship. So how 0:05:00.756 --> 0:05:11.076 do you feel about helping us? I consent enthusiastically so cheesy. Okay, 0:05:11.516 --> 0:05:15.756 So my girlfriend Alex Air quotes Alex. It's going to 0:05:15.796 --> 0:05:17.916 come on the episode a little bit later so you 0:05:17.916 --> 0:05:20.876 can hear from both of our perspectives. But for now, 0:05:20.956 --> 0:05:23.116 let me just summarize the situation up at the top. 0:05:23.676 --> 0:05:28.476 Alex and I were invited to an orgy. Okay, it 0:05:28.596 --> 0:05:32.076 is our first time being invited to an orgy, and 0:05:32.316 --> 0:05:36.996 it's a queer like ABCD party anybody but assistudes, and 0:05:37.196 --> 0:05:39.836 it's organized by one of our friends who's like this 0:05:40.236 --> 0:05:43.916 queer power connector and there's a Google form where you 0:05:43.956 --> 0:05:46.396 fill out your vaccination status and it has all this 0:05:46.516 --> 0:05:52.276 safety information. But here's our question. So we would only 0:05:52.316 --> 0:05:55.516 go together. There is not a world where one of 0:05:55.596 --> 0:05:59.436 us would go without the other one. Now I am 0:05:59.516 --> 0:06:03.716 an enthusiastic Yes, I want to go. I'm feeling like yolo. 0:06:03.796 --> 0:06:06.956 It sounds super fun, sounds hot. I love it. But 0:06:07.156 --> 0:06:12.396 my girlfriend Alex is less sure. They're definitely curious about going, 0:06:12.676 --> 0:06:16.796 but they're nervous. So the orgy is coming up in 0:06:16.836 --> 0:06:19.556 a few weeks, and every time we talk about if 0:06:19.556 --> 0:06:22.556 we're gonna go, we just like, uh, we don't know 0:06:22.596 --> 0:06:25.356 we're gonna do. We get stuck at this place where 0:06:25.396 --> 0:06:29.596 Alex is like maybe, but I'm scared, and I'm like, 0:06:29.796 --> 0:06:31.516 you don't have to go, and they're like, but I 0:06:31.596 --> 0:06:34.516 kind of want to. I'm just scared, and we get 0:06:34.596 --> 0:06:37.636 like we just hit an impass and we say like, Okay, 0:06:37.716 --> 0:06:41.116 we'll come back to this tomorrow. But it actually seems 0:06:41.116 --> 0:06:43.196 like we are not equipped to have the level of 0:06:43.236 --> 0:06:47.956 conversation that we need to have. And like we said 0:06:47.996 --> 0:06:50.836 in the beginning of this episode, everything I have learned 0:06:50.836 --> 0:06:54.196 about consent up until this point is like, if it's 0:06:54.276 --> 0:06:59.396 not an enthusiastic yes from everybody involved, then it can't happen. Period. 0:07:00.156 --> 0:07:06.396 And you know, Alex is curious and interested but unsure, 0:07:06.436 --> 0:07:10.436 like they are ultimately a maybe. So the first part 0:07:10.436 --> 0:07:13.756 of our question is like, how do we actually handle 0:07:13.876 --> 0:07:17.676 a maybe in real life? And the second part of 0:07:17.676 --> 0:07:21.916 our question is that if we go, we're like, oh shit, 0:07:22.076 --> 0:07:25.916 this is going to be the consent Olympics. Not that 0:07:26.036 --> 0:07:28.436 it's a competition, of course, but I just mean that 0:07:28.516 --> 0:07:31.076 we're going to an orgy for the first time together. 0:07:31.796 --> 0:07:34.796 So if we go, we'll be navigating like our different 0:07:34.876 --> 0:07:38.396 levels of comfort and enthusiasm. And it seems like the 0:07:38.516 --> 0:07:41.316 kind of situation where we will need to be constantly 0:07:41.756 --> 0:07:45.676 evaluating and communicating the consent that we have with each 0:07:45.676 --> 0:07:48.876 other and any new consent that we might be bringing 0:07:48.916 --> 0:07:53.476 in if you know there's someone else involved. It's like, Okay, 0:07:53.676 --> 0:07:56.236 if we're going to go to the consent Olympics, we 0:07:56.316 --> 0:07:58.716 need a session with a trainer. Yeah, this is an 0:07:58.716 --> 0:08:05.636 advanced consent situation, not for beginners. And I feel so 0:08:05.796 --> 0:08:09.796 thrilled that I get to help you work out this situation. 0:08:11.196 --> 0:08:14.076 And I gotta say, like, if you're listening and thinking, oh, 0:08:14.116 --> 0:08:15.836 I'm never going to go to an orgy, so this 0:08:15.876 --> 0:08:18.996 isn't applicable to me. I really think that this concept 0:08:19.036 --> 0:08:25.356 of enthusiastic maybe is applicable in so many other situations. Yeah, Like, 0:08:25.436 --> 0:08:28.516 I think it's really common whenever one partner wants to 0:08:28.556 --> 0:08:31.916 try something new, Like let's say one partner wants to 0:08:31.916 --> 0:08:36.876 try watching point together or having anal sex, having a threesome. 0:08:37.156 --> 0:08:40.156 I think these are really common, and I think those 0:08:40.156 --> 0:08:44.156 are all times where an enthusiastic maybe might apply. And 0:08:44.196 --> 0:08:47.396 that's part of the same conversation that we're having here. Yeah, 0:08:47.476 --> 0:08:52.156 so let's do this thing. Where should we start. Let's 0:08:52.156 --> 0:08:55.716 begin by making sure everybody's got the very basic basics, 0:08:56.316 --> 0:09:00.716 which is by saying that consent is the starting line, 0:09:01.036 --> 0:09:04.596 not the finish line. We want to bring our partners pleasure. 0:09:04.676 --> 0:09:08.236 We want to share pleasure. We want to have good sex, 0:09:08.436 --> 0:09:11.436 great sex, or brain melting sex. Right. We don't want 0:09:11.436 --> 0:09:13.716 to listen to a sex podcast to learn to have 0:09:13.956 --> 0:09:17.836 bare minimum consensual sex. We don't want our partner to 0:09:17.876 --> 0:09:20.196 wake up at the morning and say, hmmm, last night 0:09:20.356 --> 0:09:25.276 was so consensual, right, I mean no, we definitely want 0:09:25.316 --> 0:09:28.636 that we definitely don't want the alternative, But I mean, 0:09:29.196 --> 0:09:35.996 is that your standard for a great night that was consensual? Yeah? No, 0:09:36.156 --> 0:09:40.836 If I had hot sex, it was consensual sex. Yeah. Yeah. 0:09:40.876 --> 0:09:44.396 So when I was teaching about responsive desire, remember we 0:09:44.396 --> 0:09:47.476 had an episode on responsive desire, it's desire that emerges 0:09:47.556 --> 0:09:52.196 in response to pleasure rather than in anticipation of pleasure, 0:09:53.436 --> 0:09:57.036 it became clear that the conversation about consent needed to 0:09:57.036 --> 0:10:01.636 be more nuanced than just enthusiastic. Yes, because the point 0:10:01.676 --> 0:10:05.476 of responsive desire is your enthusiasm emerges only once you 0:10:05.596 --> 0:10:08.156 have preheated the oven, right, you have to sort of 0:10:08.516 --> 0:10:10.956 get start. And you and I have spent a lot 0:10:10.996 --> 0:10:13.276 of time in this series talking about the dual control 0:10:13.316 --> 0:10:16.396 model that breaks and the accelerator. Yeah, And for me, 0:10:16.556 --> 0:10:18.876 one of the key things about the dual control model 0:10:19.876 --> 0:10:25.676 is it tells us why and how ambivalence is normal. 0:10:26.876 --> 0:10:29.676 We are often in context that are full of stuff 0:10:29.676 --> 0:10:34.036 that activates the accelerator and also stuff that hits the breaks. 0:10:34.076 --> 0:10:37.076 So you imagine you're just at the generic party and 0:10:37.156 --> 0:10:40.356 you're making out and turned on and lots of accelerator 0:10:40.476 --> 0:10:43.556 is happening, but also you're here in public, and that 0:10:43.676 --> 0:10:46.636 doesn't seem okay, and let's go somewhere else, right accelerator 0:10:46.676 --> 0:10:49.156 and breaks at the same time, or you're in bed 0:10:49.196 --> 0:10:52.076 together and it's super hot, but not unless you've got 0:10:52.116 --> 0:10:57.396 a condom, my friend. Just living in the intensely sex 0:10:57.476 --> 0:11:00.836 negative world that many of us live in, a lot 0:11:00.876 --> 0:11:05.956 of us have culturally imposed shame hitting our breaks kind 0:11:05.956 --> 0:11:10.836 of all the time, so our enthusiasm is always held 0:11:10.836 --> 0:11:13.396 back by that feeling that we're not even supposed to 0:11:13.436 --> 0:11:17.436 be enthusiastic for sex, except that if we're enthusiastic, that's 0:11:17.436 --> 0:11:19.316 the only time that we're allowed to have the sex. 0:11:19.356 --> 0:11:21.276 And if you can't get to enthusiasm, then you shouldn't 0:11:21.276 --> 0:11:24.236 even me saying yes. Yeah, an enthusiastic yes is like 0:11:24.276 --> 0:11:26.996 a high bar. Yeah. We call it the gold standard. 0:11:28.316 --> 0:11:30.756 Another thing I've been thinking about is a lot of 0:11:30.756 --> 0:11:36.316 times the level of conversation about consent gets brought down, 0:11:36.556 --> 0:11:40.556 you know, to be a conversation directed at that person 0:11:40.716 --> 0:11:45.596 who needs to hear like don't assault someone. And obviously 0:11:45.716 --> 0:11:49.876 I understand why the conversation is catered to that person 0:11:50.036 --> 0:11:54.556 because they really need to hear that message. But at 0:11:54.556 --> 0:11:59.076 the same time, if the only conversations we have are 0:11:59.116 --> 0:12:01.436 the ones that are catered to that person that needs 0:12:01.476 --> 0:12:06.076 to hear, you know, how to not be violent. Then 0:12:06.516 --> 0:12:13.436 we're losing so much nuance about power, communication, gender, all 0:12:13.516 --> 0:12:17.916 the things that play into consent. Yeah. One thing that's 0:12:17.956 --> 0:12:21.476 really interesting to me is like how the cultural definition 0:12:21.676 --> 0:12:25.156 of consent has changed over time. This is my women's 0:12:25.156 --> 0:12:28.756 Studies degree coming out. But you know, for my grandmother 0:12:29.236 --> 0:12:32.196 it was in nineteen fifty it was like, there is 0:12:32.236 --> 0:12:34.676 no such thing as consent within a marriage. If you 0:12:34.756 --> 0:12:38.356 got married, you're consenting, yea. And for my mom in 0:12:38.396 --> 0:12:42.316 the seventies, there was like some no means no jargon. 0:12:42.716 --> 0:12:45.596 And then for me when I got to college, there 0:12:45.796 --> 0:12:50.396 was like enthusiastic verbal yes yes means yes. So I 0:12:50.436 --> 0:12:52.116 was wondering if you could like give me a little 0:12:52.116 --> 0:12:57.716 cultural history of the definitions of consent. Yeah, that basically 0:12:57.916 --> 0:13:01.596 tracks in my original training in the mid nineties, I 0:13:01.676 --> 0:13:04.476 was taught yes means yes, everything else means no, and 0:13:04.516 --> 0:13:07.116 that was still pretty progressive at the time. Let me 0:13:07.196 --> 0:13:11.956 add that marital rape was only finally outlawed everywhere in 0:13:11.996 --> 0:13:14.836 the United States when I was in high school in 0:13:14.836 --> 0:13:19.316 the early nineties. Oh, we have come a long way 0:13:20.236 --> 0:13:25.356 fast your grandmother might even be legally correct that there 0:13:25.436 --> 0:13:28.916 was no such thing as non consensual married sex. Yeah, 0:13:28.956 --> 0:13:32.236 about your right, I mean in Louisiana in nineteen fifty four. 0:13:33.036 --> 0:13:34.836 On the one hand, we've come a long way fast, 0:13:34.876 --> 0:13:37.116 and on the other hand, a lot of this stuff 0:13:37.156 --> 0:13:41.276 just clings like it will not let go. So about 0:13:41.316 --> 0:13:44.796 ten years ago, it was actually exactly ten years ago, 0:13:45.076 --> 0:13:50.636 I started talking about willing consent in addition to enthusiastic consent, 0:13:51.396 --> 0:13:55.036 to make space for responsive desire. I learned this language 0:13:55.036 --> 0:13:58.116 of willing consent from a sex therapist, Susanna i Assenza, 0:13:58.316 --> 0:14:00.996 who's in New York City, but a student of mine. 0:14:01.036 --> 0:14:04.556 Felt like the word willing leaves too much room for 0:14:04.716 --> 0:14:08.876 interpretation of like willingness could be like, oh, yes, okay, 0:14:09.156 --> 0:14:12.556 I guess like that's willingness, like if you must, or 0:14:12.956 --> 0:14:15.716 you're like you have a sense of obligation, rather than sure, 0:14:15.876 --> 0:14:18.276 let's see what happens, which is what I mean when 0:14:18.316 --> 0:14:21.516 I say willing. So we sort of decided that open 0:14:21.716 --> 0:14:28.716 or openness has a warmer connotation of readiness, appreciation, poorousness connection. 0:14:29.676 --> 0:14:31.756 I've been trying to make it even simpler over the 0:14:31.836 --> 0:14:34.596 last ten years. So I booled it down to this, 0:14:35.876 --> 0:14:39.036 that the key is for everyone to be glad to 0:14:39.116 --> 0:14:46.076 be there and free to leave with no unwanted consequences. 0:14:46.076 --> 0:14:49.156 Plus there's no one wanted pain. And when I say 0:14:49.196 --> 0:14:51.356 no one wanted consequences, of course, I mean no one 0:14:51.396 --> 0:14:56.956 wanted physical consequences obviously, but also no social consequences, no 0:14:57.036 --> 0:15:00.956 emotional consequences. The relationship is not at all at stake. 0:15:01.596 --> 0:15:04.556 No one has anything to lose, No one will judge 0:15:04.556 --> 0:15:07.996 you for stopping. Everyone will be completely fine with whatever happens, 0:15:08.036 --> 0:15:11.436 because what matters most to everyone involved is that everyone 0:15:11.516 --> 0:15:16.116 has a good time. Oh my god, Okay, glad to 0:15:16.156 --> 0:15:22.716 be there, free to leave without fear of any unwanted consequences. 0:15:23.596 --> 0:15:28.196 I love that definition. I mean, obviously there can be 0:15:28.396 --> 0:15:34.156 physical consequences and violence for saying no, but I also 0:15:34.236 --> 0:15:39.516 think we don't talk enough about emotional punishment for saying no. 0:15:40.196 --> 0:15:42.756 Like let's say your partner gets mad at you or 0:15:42.956 --> 0:15:46.516 gives you this silent treatment or shuts down, Like those 0:15:46.516 --> 0:15:50.676 are all unwanted consequences that I think sometimes people fear 0:15:51.236 --> 0:15:54.756 when they're they're doing that mental calculus if like do 0:15:54.796 --> 0:15:57.316 I want to do this or am I just like 0:15:57.956 --> 0:16:00.916 acquiescing because I don't want to have to deal with 0:16:00.956 --> 0:16:04.636 the unwanted consequences of saying no. And I know that 0:16:05.116 --> 0:16:07.116 this is a very binary way to look at it, 0:16:07.156 --> 0:16:09.396 but like, just having had sex with s for a 0:16:09.396 --> 0:16:12.396 few years of my life, I'm like, the amount of 0:16:12.996 --> 0:16:16.516 temper tantrums I had to deal with because they didn't 0:16:16.556 --> 0:16:21.196 get the sex they wanted is unbelievable. Like so many 0:16:21.196 --> 0:16:24.996 men are really out there acting like that all the time. 0:16:25.116 --> 0:16:29.076 And that I think, you know, free to leave without 0:16:29.116 --> 0:16:33.076 fear of unwanted consequence is like a very overdue addition 0:16:33.196 --> 0:16:37.956 to the definition of consent exactly. Yeah, And there's actually 0:16:38.116 --> 0:16:41.436 a lot of advancement happening in this conversation from a 0:16:41.516 --> 0:16:47.196 relatively surprising source. The asexual community has really been at 0:16:47.196 --> 0:16:51.676 the forefront of broadening this definition of consent. A few 0:16:51.676 --> 0:16:53.956 months ago, I got to talk to the journalist and 0:16:54.076 --> 0:16:57.956 editor Angela Chen. She's asexual, and she wrote a book 0:16:57.956 --> 0:17:01.716 called Ace What Asexuality Reveals about Desire, society, and the 0:17:01.756 --> 0:17:04.716 meaning of sex. She said this thing about consent that 0:17:04.756 --> 0:17:08.676 I really love. She said, the idea that enthusiastic consent 0:17:08.796 --> 0:17:12.196 is the only real consent. It essentially cast doubt on 0:17:12.236 --> 0:17:18.356 the ability of aces of asexual people to give consent. Uh. 0:17:18.396 --> 0:17:22.476 Because so, for a really quick primer, asexuality is a 0:17:22.516 --> 0:17:27.196 sexual orientation where you were not sexually attracted to anyone, 0:17:28.316 --> 0:17:33.076 but there are sex favorable asexual folks who may say 0:17:33.516 --> 0:17:38.276 a willing or open yes. Uh huh. I'm also thinking 0:17:38.276 --> 0:17:42.676 about sex work and sex workers who are consenting, but 0:17:42.836 --> 0:17:45.916 they might not be enthusiastic. Yeah. A lot of us 0:17:45.956 --> 0:17:50.756 show for work not enthusiastic. Yeah. I'm really glad you 0:17:50.836 --> 0:17:54.276 brought up the ace community, the asexual community, and Angela 0:17:54.316 --> 0:17:59.276 Tan in particular, because I think it underscores this important 0:17:59.316 --> 0:18:03.636 point that, like enthusiastic consent is too blunt of an 0:18:03.636 --> 0:18:07.836 instrument to try to put onto everyone's personal definitions of 0:18:07.876 --> 0:18:11.236 what consent feels like to them. Another thing I've been 0:18:11.276 --> 0:18:16.836 thinking about is this antiquated hetero cultural script that is 0:18:16.876 --> 0:18:20.156 still out there that says, like, to be a quote 0:18:20.196 --> 0:18:24.196 unquote good sexual partner, then you need to be willing 0:18:24.236 --> 0:18:28.036 to try the things your partner wants to try. I 0:18:28.116 --> 0:18:33.116 struggle with that because obviously sometimes people might fit into 0:18:33.156 --> 0:18:37.236 that model when they're feeling like enthusiastic maybe yeah, But 0:18:37.316 --> 0:18:41.476 I think other times that model leaves so much room 0:18:41.596 --> 0:18:45.916 for like pressure and coercion and emotional manipulation like oh, 0:18:45.956 --> 0:18:47.516 if you're going to be a good partner to me, 0:18:47.596 --> 0:18:50.156 I need you to do X, y Z. Thing that 0:18:50.316 --> 0:18:53.636 is not the equivalent of the enthusiastic Maybe. That's like 0:18:54.316 --> 0:18:57.836 a sort of cultural script that could overlap with the 0:18:57.956 --> 0:19:01.836 enthusiastic maybe, but also could overlap with a much darker 0:19:01.956 --> 0:19:08.436 and non consensual situation. Yes, that is exactly where the 0:19:08.516 --> 0:19:13.436 sort of dinesses. And I just again love the definition 0:19:13.476 --> 0:19:16.996 you have about free to leave without fear of unwanted 0:19:17.036 --> 0:19:22.356 consequences because it acknowledges like the power dynamics and the 0:19:22.436 --> 0:19:28.276 motivations behind the words yes and no. Yes, that's exactly 0:19:28.316 --> 0:19:31.716 the goal, because it's true that in the real world, 0:19:31.876 --> 0:19:36.076 not everyone is equally free to say yes or no. Right. 0:19:37.236 --> 0:19:39.436 In Burnout, the book that I write with my sister, 0:19:39.916 --> 0:19:43.156 we describe the social expectations for anyone assigned the It's 0:19:43.196 --> 0:19:46.116 a Girl package of rules and regulations. We say that 0:19:46.156 --> 0:19:49.436 we are assigned the role of being human givers, and 0:19:49.476 --> 0:19:54.276 we are expected to be at all times without fail. Ready, 0:19:54.316 --> 0:19:56.596 here's the list. Yes, hit it with the list eily 0:19:57.116 --> 0:20:03.036 morally obligated to be pretty happy yet calm, generous, and 0:20:03.156 --> 0:20:08.756 attentive to the needs of other thing. So if someone 0:20:08.836 --> 0:20:11.636 is aessing their internal experience, they may notice it. On 0:20:11.676 --> 0:20:14.596 the one hand, they're not really interested in like what 0:20:14.636 --> 0:20:16.996 their partners doing and like it could be better, and 0:20:17.076 --> 0:20:20.756 also they feel a moral obligation to make their partner 0:20:20.796 --> 0:20:23.756 happy and make sure their needs are met. So even 0:20:23.796 --> 0:20:27.236 a situation that everyone is glad to be there, but 0:20:27.276 --> 0:20:29.916 maybe your partners touch you in a way that's very 0:20:29.916 --> 0:20:32.876 well intentioned, but it's just not doing it for you, 0:20:33.316 --> 0:20:37.396 and your partner goes, do you like that? What do 0:20:37.436 --> 0:20:44.556 we say as human givers? Yeah, we're like, yeah, yeah, 0:20:44.716 --> 0:20:48.196 rather than saying actually a little pressure and a little 0:20:49.036 --> 0:20:53.076 little little more speed would be bad. We don't want 0:20:53.116 --> 0:20:57.076 to hurt our partners feelings or make them feel criticized totally. 0:20:57.636 --> 0:21:00.916 And then on the other side, there's the of the binary, 0:21:00.956 --> 0:21:03.076 there's the people assigning. It's a boy package of rules 0:21:03.116 --> 0:21:05.956 and regulations. I've started to call them the human winners 0:21:06.796 --> 0:21:11.876 because they're allowed to feel horny, winning and angry and 0:21:11.996 --> 0:21:15.236 that's it. But above all, they're supposed to know everything 0:21:15.236 --> 0:21:18.756 about sex already without ever asking questions or making mistakes 0:21:18.756 --> 0:21:22.956 from receiving any feedback, so they're trained to be sensitive 0:21:22.996 --> 0:21:26.876 to hearing their partners say a little more pressure and 0:21:26.996 --> 0:21:34.756 a little more speed, and you're basically criticizing their entire identity. 0:21:35.636 --> 0:21:37.996 And this goes back to the timber tantrum thing, like 0:21:38.796 --> 0:21:43.556 this gender rules thing. It helps explain why some sis 0:21:43.556 --> 0:21:48.116 men do this, but it does not excuse it. And 0:21:48.396 --> 0:21:51.436 people of all genders can react that way when they 0:21:51.436 --> 0:21:54.436 don't get what they want in sex. It's a it's 0:21:54.476 --> 0:21:56.956 a twisted mess. And then everyone else, the trans folks, 0:21:56.996 --> 0:21:59.756 non binary folks, a gender folks, are fed these same 0:21:59.876 --> 0:22:02.796 binary rules yeah, and have to negotiate with their own 0:22:02.836 --> 0:22:08.596 internal beliefs about what these mean for them and get 0:22:08.636 --> 0:22:11.716 clear with their partners about what it means. This is 0:22:11.716 --> 0:22:15.396 a miss. Nobody's free and basically, can we all get 0:22:15.396 --> 0:22:20.196 our collective act together and quit it with the gender nonsense? Right? 0:22:20.236 --> 0:22:23.676 I mean, a real complex conversation about consent has to 0:22:23.716 --> 0:22:28.676 include this conversation about gender roles, about motivations, internal scripts, 0:22:30.396 --> 0:22:33.956 and even within all of those layers, there's that surprising 0:22:33.956 --> 0:22:37.236 analogy you explain to me about consent being like tea. 0:22:38.436 --> 0:22:40.636 It's imperfect, but I like it. So can you explain 0:22:40.676 --> 0:22:44.076 the tea analogy a little bit? Yeah, So this was 0:22:44.116 --> 0:22:47.796 a really viral thing. In twenty fifteen, there was this 0:22:47.876 --> 0:22:53.116 blog from Rockstar Dinosaur Pirate Princess comparing sexual consent to tea, 0:22:53.636 --> 0:22:55.636 and they were like, we can all understand that if 0:22:55.636 --> 0:22:57.356 you offer a person a cup of tea and they 0:22:57.396 --> 0:23:00.676 say no, you do not require them to drink tea. 0:23:00.836 --> 0:23:03.196 And if they say yes, and you spend the time 0:23:03.236 --> 0:23:05.116 boiling the water and brewing the tea and you bring 0:23:05.156 --> 0:23:07.996 it to them and they change their mind, you still 0:23:08.036 --> 0:23:10.236 don't insist that they the tea. Even though you went 0:23:10.276 --> 0:23:12.676 to all that trouble you made it they decided not 0:23:12.676 --> 0:23:14.716 to drink it all well, And because the person has 0:23:14.716 --> 0:23:16.276 come over to your house and had tea with you 0:23:16.316 --> 0:23:19.876 several times before, that does not mean there any obligation 0:23:20.236 --> 0:23:23.556 to come and have tea with you again. And for sure, 0:23:23.796 --> 0:23:26.436 if they like pass out between the time they said 0:23:26.516 --> 0:23:28.596 yes to tea and the time you bring them the tea, 0:23:28.836 --> 0:23:31.396 you don't pour tea down their throat. We can all 0:23:31.436 --> 0:23:34.956 get that, right, yep. One thing I do like about 0:23:34.996 --> 0:23:38.676 the tea analogy is that it helps frame consent as 0:23:38.756 --> 0:23:42.556 an ongoing conversation. I love that, and it also is 0:23:42.596 --> 0:23:47.596 a very easy way to understand that consent to tea 0:23:47.756 --> 0:23:51.876 isn't consent to biscuits. And honestly, in twenty fifteen, that 0:23:52.036 --> 0:23:55.756 was a really important language for a lot of people. 0:23:56.756 --> 0:24:00.676 It went superviral for a reason because it was so straightforward, 0:24:02.156 --> 0:24:05.156 but it did leave out some really important subtleties, Like 0:24:05.316 --> 0:24:09.076 I was thinking, Okay, so suppose person A offers tea. 0:24:09.396 --> 0:24:11.956 It's a person be Yeah, what are all the things 0:24:11.956 --> 0:24:14.436 that might be going through person Bee's head. Are they 0:24:14.476 --> 0:24:18.956 thinking I want this person's company or approval or friendship. 0:24:19.716 --> 0:24:22.196 I want to not be rude. I don't want to 0:24:22.236 --> 0:24:25.116 hurt their feelings. I want to follow the rules of 0:24:25.156 --> 0:24:27.876 this culture. Maybe I want to tell my friends that 0:24:27.916 --> 0:24:30.356 I had tea with this person. You know, I would 0:24:30.396 --> 0:24:33.756 like the sugar in the milk, but I don't want 0:24:33.836 --> 0:24:38.876 any actual tea. So what I want is a world 0:24:38.916 --> 0:24:43.036 where person B feels comfortable and confidence saying no, thank 0:24:43.036 --> 0:24:45.836 you please to the tea. But I would enjoy seeing 0:24:45.836 --> 0:24:49.316 what your tea cups look like and enjoying my own 0:24:49.356 --> 0:24:53.156 cup of sugar and milk. Also, I would really love 0:24:53.196 --> 0:24:59.956 to watch you drink tea. Yeah, okay, we need to 0:24:59.996 --> 0:25:02.516 take a break. I need to run to the little 0:25:02.516 --> 0:25:06.276 podcaster's room. And then when we get back, my girlfriend 0:25:06.276 --> 0:25:09.516 Alex is going to come on the show and we 0:25:09.556 --> 0:25:13.876 are going to get your advice, Emily on navigating this 0:25:14.316 --> 0:25:18.796 enthusiastic maybe within our relationship, and we're going to get 0:25:18.916 --> 0:25:34.196 some training lessons for the consent Olympics. All right, all right, 0:25:34.756 --> 0:25:37.716 we are back and Emily is going to help me 0:25:37.876 --> 0:25:43.396 and my girlfriend Alex navigate this question about should we 0:25:43.516 --> 0:25:48.596 go to this orgy? Hi, Alex, not your real name, girlfriend. Hello, 0:25:49.716 --> 0:25:52.276 thanks for coming and for calling in from the car 0:25:52.356 --> 0:25:55.956 instead of taking your lunch break. You're the best. So 0:25:56.276 --> 0:26:00.116 you want to introduce yourself? Yeah, hi everybody. I'm glad 0:26:00.156 --> 0:26:03.676 to be here, glad to have your health. Emily answering 0:26:03.716 --> 0:26:06.956 this question, my name is Alex. I'm non binary. I 0:26:07.036 --> 0:26:09.036 use the then pronounced. But one of the great thing 0:26:09.356 --> 0:26:11.716 about being queer and non binaries that you get to 0:26:11.756 --> 0:26:13.796 choose the language that works for you, which is why 0:26:13.996 --> 0:26:16.716 you know, Mo has been using the words like girlfriend 0:26:17.436 --> 0:26:20.796 and like lesbian for our relationship. Those words are comfy 0:26:20.836 --> 0:26:25.796 for us, so we use gendered language when it feels comfortable. Yeah, yeah, 0:26:25.836 --> 0:26:28.196 that's me. I'm so excited. Thank you for helping us, Emily, 0:26:28.476 --> 0:26:31.756