Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey everybody, this is a heads up that this
Speaker 1: episode includes discussions of sexual consent or lack thereof, so
Speaker 1: keep that in mind when you're listening. Yeah, we're going
Speaker 1: to be talking specifically about the maybes that come up
Speaker 1: in sex and how to navigate those, which, to be clear,
Speaker 1: is different from coercion and manipulation in sex, but we
Speaker 1: do talk about those topics too. So if this episode
Speaker 1: brings up some feelings for you, we have resources in
Speaker 1: our show notes. Okay, now onto the episode. Yi, Hi, Hi,
Speaker 1: and I'm calling in. I have a question for you.
Speaker 1: There has to be another way to teach consent that
Speaker 1: does not you know, just use the word yes as
Speaker 1: a stand in for consent. Amo, is this actually just
Speaker 1: from you? Is this are you asking me for a friend?
Speaker 1: How do you know? I am actually asking this question
Speaker 1: for me and my girlfriend. I love that. It's a
Speaker 1: dream come true. If I do nothing else with this podcast,
Speaker 1: I want to make your personal sex life better. I'm
Speaker 1: Emmily Nagaski and this is the Come as you Are
Speaker 1: podcast where I answer questions about sex with science. In
Speaker 1: this episode, we're talking about consent, and this is an
Speaker 1: advanced class in consent where we talk about all the
Speaker 1: nuances and power dynamics, and I want to introduce a
Speaker 1: concept I call the enthusiastic maybe all the comfortable, joyful,
Speaker 1: consensual maybes insects and how to navigate those. And here
Speaker 1: with me is the one and only producer mo Hi Emily. Hello.
Speaker 1: So this topic listeners might look at it and think, oh,
Speaker 1: I understand consent completely. It's yes and no. It's black
Speaker 1: and white. At least that is what I learned about
Speaker 1: consent on a college campus in twenty fifteen. I was
Speaker 1: taught that the only kind of consent is a verbal
Speaker 1: enthusiastic yes. Yeah. If it's not an enthusiastic yes, then
Speaker 1: it's an enthusiastic no. That seems to be yeah what
Speaker 1: young sex educators are teaching now. I recently took my
Speaker 1: first foray into TikTok sex education because you told me
Speaker 1: there were sex educators on TikTok, and the very first
Speaker 1: video I saw was like, enthusiastic consent is the only consent.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you are extremely familiar with the enthusiastic yes
Speaker 1: model because you were a peer educator on college campuses,
Speaker 1: right yep, back in the mid nineties, I was, and
Speaker 1: what I learned to teach was yes means yes. No
Speaker 1: means no, silence means no, maybe means no, I'm not
Speaker 1: sure means no. Only yes means yes. So to help
Speaker 1: explain this sort of enthusiastic consent, you say yes when
Speaker 1: you want to, When you have no fear of the
Speaker 1: consequences of saying yes or the consequences of saying no.
Speaker 1: You are fully free, right, Like, it's not only that
Speaker 1: both people are at a yes. You are enthusiastic about
Speaker 1: the sex. You're super excited about the sex you're having.
Speaker 1: There's a simplicity to the enthusiastic yes is the only
Speaker 1: kind of consent. And I can see why that is
Speaker 1: so important for people who are just starting out of
Speaker 1: having sex to learn, like enthusiastic yes, Like that's a
Speaker 1: great place to start, but it can't be the end
Speaker 1: of the conversation. I really think it's just the beginning
Speaker 1: of the conversation about consent. And like you said, enthusiastic yes,
Speaker 1: it doesn't encompass the comfortable and consensual maybees that do
Speaker 1: come up insects. Yea, And that is what I want
Speaker 1: to talk about with you today. It just pop my
Speaker 1: Lacroix Open Delicious. We're not sponsored by Lacroix. I'm just
Speaker 1: a stereotype. Okay, Emily, are you ready to hear more
Speaker 1: about my question? I am, I'm ready. As you know,
Speaker 1: we spend a lot of time together answering questions from
Speaker 1: people who call into the hotline. So recently we were
Speaker 1: talking about this concept of the enthusiastic maybe. I was like,
Speaker 1: hot day, that's new information for me, and I really
Speaker 1: love it. And then I realized, like, wait, my girlfriend
Speaker 1: and I are currently in a situation where we need
Speaker 1: help navigating and enthusiastic maybe in our relationship. So how
Speaker 1: do you feel about helping us? I consent enthusiastically so cheesy. Okay,
Speaker 1: So my girlfriend Alex Air quotes Alex. It's going to
Speaker 1: come on the episode a little bit later so you
Speaker 1: can hear from both of our perspectives. But for now,
Speaker 1: let me just summarize the situation up at the top.
Speaker 1: Alex and I were invited to an orgy. Okay, it
Speaker 1: is our first time being invited to an orgy, and
Speaker 1: it's a queer like ABCD party anybody but assistudes, and
Speaker 1: it's organized by one of our friends who's like this
Speaker 1: queer power connector and there's a Google form where you
Speaker 1: fill out your vaccination status and it has all this
Speaker 1: safety information. But here's our question. So we would only
Speaker 1: go together. There is not a world where one of
Speaker 1: us would go without the other one. Now I am
Speaker 1: an enthusiastic Yes, I want to go. I'm feeling like yolo.
Speaker 1: It sounds super fun, sounds hot. I love it. But
Speaker 1: my girlfriend Alex is less sure. They're definitely curious about going,
Speaker 1: but they're nervous. So the orgy is coming up in
Speaker 1: a few weeks, and every time we talk about if
Speaker 1: we're gonna go, we just like, uh, we don't know
Speaker 1: we're gonna do. We get stuck at this place where
Speaker 1: Alex is like maybe, but I'm scared, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: you don't have to go, and they're like, but I
Speaker 1: kind of want to. I'm just scared, and we get
Speaker 1: like we just hit an impass and we say like, Okay,
Speaker 1: we'll come back to this tomorrow. But it actually seems
Speaker 1: like we are not equipped to have the level of
Speaker 1: conversation that we need to have. And like we said
Speaker 1: in the beginning of this episode, everything I have learned
Speaker 1: about consent up until this point is like, if it's
Speaker 1: not an enthusiastic yes from everybody involved, then it can't happen. Period.
Speaker 1: And you know, Alex is curious and interested but unsure,
Speaker 1: like they are ultimately a maybe. So the first part
Speaker 1: of our question is like, how do we actually handle
Speaker 1: a maybe in real life? And the second part of
Speaker 1: our question is that if we go, we're like, oh shit,
Speaker 1: this is going to be the consent Olympics. Not that
Speaker 1: it's a competition, of course, but I just mean that
Speaker 1: we're going to an orgy for the first time together.
Speaker 1: So if we go, we'll be navigating like our different
Speaker 1: levels of comfort and enthusiasm. And it seems like the
Speaker 1: kind of situation where we will need to be constantly
Speaker 1: evaluating and communicating the consent that we have with each
Speaker 1: other and any new consent that we might be bringing
Speaker 1: in if you know there's someone else involved. It's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: if we're going to go to the consent Olympics, we
Speaker 1: need a session with a trainer. Yeah, this is an
Speaker 1: advanced consent situation, not for beginners. And I feel so
Speaker 1: thrilled that I get to help you work out this situation.
Speaker 1: And I gotta say, like, if you're listening and thinking, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm never going to go to an orgy, so this
Speaker 1: isn't applicable to me. I really think that this concept
Speaker 1: of enthusiastic maybe is applicable in so many other situations. Yeah, Like,
Speaker 1: I think it's really common whenever one partner wants to
Speaker 1: try something new, Like let's say one partner wants to
Speaker 1: try watching point together or having anal sex, having a threesome.
Speaker 1: I think these are really common, and I think those
Speaker 1: are all times where an enthusiastic maybe might apply. And
Speaker 1: that's part of the same conversation that we're having here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so let's do this thing. Where should we start. Let's
Speaker 1: begin by making sure everybody's got the very basic basics,
Speaker 1: which is by saying that consent is the starting line,
Speaker 1: not the finish line. We want to bring our partners pleasure.
Speaker 1: We want to share pleasure. We want to have good sex,
Speaker 1: great sex, or brain melting sex. Right. We don't want
Speaker 1: to listen to a sex podcast to learn to have
Speaker 1: bare minimum consensual sex. We don't want our partner to
Speaker 1: wake up at the morning and say, hmmm, last night
Speaker 1: was so consensual, right, I mean no, we definitely want
Speaker 1: that we definitely don't want the alternative, But I mean,
Speaker 1: is that your standard for a great night that was consensual? Yeah? No,
Speaker 1: If I had hot sex, it was consensual sex. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So when I was teaching about responsive desire, remember we
Speaker 1: had an episode on responsive desire, it's desire that emerges
Speaker 1: in response to pleasure rather than in anticipation of pleasure,
Speaker 1: it became clear that the conversation about consent needed to
Speaker 1: be more nuanced than just enthusiastic. Yes, because the point
Speaker 1: of responsive desire is your enthusiasm emerges only once you
Speaker 1: have preheated the oven, right, you have to sort of
Speaker 1: get start. And you and I have spent a lot
Speaker 1: of time in this series talking about the dual control
Speaker 1: model that breaks and the accelerator. Yeah, And for me,
Speaker 1: one of the key things about the dual control model
Speaker 1: is it tells us why and how ambivalence is normal.
Speaker 1: We are often in context that are full of stuff
Speaker 1: that activates the accelerator and also stuff that hits the breaks.
Speaker 1: So you imagine you're just at the generic party and
Speaker 1: you're making out and turned on and lots of accelerator
Speaker 1: is happening, but also you're here in public, and that
Speaker 1: doesn't seem okay, and let's go somewhere else, right accelerator
Speaker 1: and breaks at the same time, or you're in bed
Speaker 1: together and it's super hot, but not unless you've got
Speaker 1: a condom, my friend. Just living in the intensely sex
Speaker 1: negative world that many of us live in, a lot
Speaker 1: of us have culturally imposed shame hitting our breaks kind
Speaker 1: of all the time, so our enthusiasm is always held
Speaker 1: back by that feeling that we're not even supposed to
Speaker 1: be enthusiastic for sex, except that if we're enthusiastic, that's
Speaker 1: the only time that we're allowed to have the sex.
Speaker 1: And if you can't get to enthusiasm, then you shouldn't
Speaker 1: even me saying yes. Yeah, an enthusiastic yes is like
Speaker 1: a high bar. Yeah. We call it the gold standard.
Speaker 1: Another thing I've been thinking about is a lot of
Speaker 1: times the level of conversation about consent gets brought down,
Speaker 1: you know, to be a conversation directed at that person
Speaker 1: who needs to hear like don't assault someone. And obviously
Speaker 1: I understand why the conversation is catered to that person
Speaker 1: because they really need to hear that message. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, if the only conversations we have are
Speaker 1: the ones that are catered to that person that needs
Speaker 1: to hear, you know, how to not be violent. Then
Speaker 1: we're losing so much nuance about power, communication, gender, all
Speaker 1: the things that play into consent. Yeah. One thing that's
Speaker 1: really interesting to me is like how the cultural definition
Speaker 1: of consent has changed over time. This is my women's
Speaker 1: Studies degree coming out. But you know, for my grandmother
Speaker 1: it was in nineteen fifty it was like, there is
Speaker 1: no such thing as consent within a marriage. If you
Speaker 1: got married, you're consenting, yea. And for my mom in
Speaker 1: the seventies, there was like some no means no jargon.
Speaker 1: And then for me when I got to college, there
Speaker 1: was like enthusiastic verbal yes yes means yes. So I
Speaker 1: was wondering if you could like give me a little
Speaker 1: cultural history of the definitions of consent. Yeah, that basically
Speaker 1: tracks in my original training in the mid nineties, I
Speaker 1: was taught yes means yes, everything else means no, and
Speaker 1: that was still pretty progressive at the time. Let me
Speaker 1: add that marital rape was only finally outlawed everywhere in
Speaker 1: the United States when I was in high school in
Speaker 1: the early nineties. Oh, we have come a long way
Speaker 1: fast your grandmother might even be legally correct that there
Speaker 1: was no such thing as non consensual married sex. Yeah,
Speaker 1: about your right, I mean in Louisiana in nineteen fifty four.
Speaker 1: On the one hand, we've come a long way fast,
Speaker 1: and on the other hand, a lot of this stuff
Speaker 1: just clings like it will not let go. So about
Speaker 1: ten years ago, it was actually exactly ten years ago,
Speaker 1: I started talking about willing consent in addition to enthusiastic consent,
Speaker 1: to make space for responsive desire. I learned this language
Speaker 1: of willing consent from a sex therapist, Susanna i Assenza,
Speaker 1: who's in New York City, but a student of mine.
Speaker 1: Felt like the word willing leaves too much room for
Speaker 1: interpretation of like willingness could be like, oh, yes, okay,
Speaker 1: I guess like that's willingness, like if you must, or
Speaker 1: you're like you have a sense of obligation, rather than sure,
Speaker 1: let's see what happens, which is what I mean when
Speaker 1: I say willing. So we sort of decided that open
Speaker 1: or openness has a warmer connotation of readiness, appreciation, poorousness connection.
Speaker 1: I've been trying to make it even simpler over the
Speaker 1: last ten years. So I booled it down to this,
Speaker 1: that the key is for everyone to be glad to
Speaker 1: be there and free to leave with no unwanted consequences.
Speaker 1: Plus there's no one wanted pain. And when I say
Speaker 1: no one wanted consequences, of course, I mean no one
Speaker 1: wanted physical consequences obviously, but also no social consequences, no
Speaker 1: emotional consequences. The relationship is not at all at stake.
Speaker 1: No one has anything to lose, No one will judge
Speaker 1: you for stopping. Everyone will be completely fine with whatever happens,
Speaker 1: because what matters most to everyone involved is that everyone
Speaker 1: has a good time. Oh my god, Okay, glad to
Speaker 1: be there, free to leave without fear of any unwanted consequences.
Speaker 1: I love that definition. I mean, obviously there can be
Speaker 1: physical consequences and violence for saying no, but I also
Speaker 1: think we don't talk enough about emotional punishment for saying no.
Speaker 1: Like let's say your partner gets mad at you or
Speaker 1: gives you this silent treatment or shuts down, Like those
Speaker 1: are all unwanted consequences that I think sometimes people fear
Speaker 1: when they're they're doing that mental calculus if like do
Speaker 1: I want to do this or am I just like
Speaker 1: acquiescing because I don't want to have to deal with
Speaker 1: the unwanted consequences of saying no. And I know that
Speaker 1: this is a very binary way to look at it,
Speaker 1: but like, just having had sex with s for a
Speaker 1: few years of my life, I'm like, the amount of
Speaker 1: temper tantrums I had to deal with because they didn't
Speaker 1: get the sex they wanted is unbelievable. Like so many
Speaker 1: men are really out there acting like that all the time.
Speaker 1: And that I think, you know, free to leave without
Speaker 1: fear of unwanted consequence is like a very overdue addition
Speaker 1: to the definition of consent exactly. Yeah, And there's actually
Speaker 1: a lot of advancement happening in this conversation from a
Speaker 1: relatively surprising source. The asexual community has really been at
Speaker 1: the forefront of broadening this definition of consent. A few
Speaker 1: months ago, I got to talk to the journalist and
Speaker 1: editor Angela Chen. She's asexual, and she wrote a book
Speaker 1: called Ace What Asexuality Reveals about Desire, society, and the
Speaker 1: meaning of sex. She said this thing about consent that
Speaker 1: I really love. She said, the idea that enthusiastic consent
Speaker 1: is the only real consent. It essentially cast doubt on
Speaker 1: the ability of aces of asexual people to give consent. Uh.
Speaker 1: Because so, for a really quick primer, asexuality is a
Speaker 1: sexual orientation where you were not sexually attracted to anyone,
Speaker 1: but there are sex favorable asexual folks who may say
Speaker 1: a willing or open yes. Uh huh. I'm also thinking
Speaker 1: about sex work and sex workers who are consenting, but
Speaker 1: they might not be enthusiastic. Yeah. A lot of us
Speaker 1: show for work not enthusiastic. Yeah. I'm really glad you
Speaker 1: brought up the ace community, the asexual community, and Angela
Speaker 1: Tan in particular, because I think it underscores this important
Speaker 1: point that, like enthusiastic consent is too blunt of an
Speaker 1: instrument to try to put onto everyone's personal definitions of
Speaker 1: what consent feels like to them. Another thing I've been
Speaker 1: thinking about is this antiquated hetero cultural script that is
Speaker 1: still out there that says, like, to be a quote
Speaker 1: unquote good sexual partner, then you need to be willing
Speaker 1: to try the things your partner wants to try. I
Speaker 1: struggle with that because obviously sometimes people might fit into
Speaker 1: that model when they're feeling like enthusiastic maybe yeah, But
Speaker 1: I think other times that model leaves so much room
Speaker 1: for like pressure and coercion and emotional manipulation like oh,
Speaker 1: if you're going to be a good partner to me,
Speaker 1: I need you to do X, y Z. Thing that
Speaker 1: is not the equivalent of the enthusiastic Maybe. That's like
Speaker 1: a sort of cultural script that could overlap with the
Speaker 1: enthusiastic maybe, but also could overlap with a much darker
Speaker 1: and non consensual situation. Yes, that is exactly where the
Speaker 1: sort of dinesses. And I just again love the definition
Speaker 1: you have about free to leave without fear of unwanted
Speaker 1: consequences because it acknowledges like the power dynamics and the
Speaker 1: motivations behind the words yes and no. Yes, that's exactly
Speaker 1: the goal, because it's true that in the real world,
Speaker 1: not everyone is equally free to say yes or no. Right.
Speaker 1: In Burnout, the book that I write with my sister,
Speaker 1: we describe the social expectations for anyone assigned the It's
Speaker 1: a Girl package of rules and regulations. We say that
Speaker 1: we are assigned the role of being human givers, and
Speaker 1: we are expected to be at all times without fail. Ready,
Speaker 1: here's the list. Yes, hit it with the list eily
Speaker 1: morally obligated to be pretty happy yet calm, generous, and
Speaker 1: attentive to the needs of other thing. So if someone
Speaker 1: is aessing their internal experience, they may notice it. On
Speaker 1: the one hand, they're not really interested in like what
Speaker 1: their partners doing and like it could be better, and
Speaker 1: also they feel a moral obligation to make their partner
Speaker 1: happy and make sure their needs are met. So even
Speaker 1: a situation that everyone is glad to be there, but
Speaker 1: maybe your partners touch you in a way that's very
Speaker 1: well intentioned, but it's just not doing it for you,
Speaker 1: and your partner goes, do you like that? What do
Speaker 1: we say as human givers? Yeah, we're like, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: rather than saying actually a little pressure and a little
Speaker 1: little little more speed would be bad. We don't want
Speaker 1: to hurt our partners feelings or make them feel criticized totally.
Speaker 1: And then on the other side, there's the of the binary,
Speaker 1: there's the people assigning. It's a boy package of rules
Speaker 1: and regulations. I've started to call them the human winners
Speaker 1: because they're allowed to feel horny, winning and angry and
Speaker 1: that's it. But above all, they're supposed to know everything
Speaker 1: about sex already without ever asking questions or making mistakes
Speaker 1: from receiving any feedback, so they're trained to be sensitive
Speaker 1: to hearing their partners say a little more pressure and
Speaker 1: a little more speed, and you're basically criticizing their entire identity.
Speaker 1: And this goes back to the timber tantrum thing, like
Speaker 1: this gender rules thing. It helps explain why some sis
Speaker 1: men do this, but it does not excuse it. And
Speaker 1: people of all genders can react that way when they
Speaker 1: don't get what they want in sex. It's a it's
Speaker 1: a twisted mess. And then everyone else, the trans folks,
Speaker 1: non binary folks, a gender folks, are fed these same
Speaker 1: binary rules yeah, and have to negotiate with their own
Speaker 1: internal beliefs about what these mean for them and get
Speaker 1: clear with their partners about what it means. This is
Speaker 1: a miss. Nobody's free and basically, can we all get
Speaker 1: our collective act together and quit it with the gender nonsense? Right?
Speaker 1: I mean, a real complex conversation about consent has to
Speaker 1: include this conversation about gender roles, about motivations, internal scripts,
Speaker 1: and even within all of those layers, there's that surprising
Speaker 1: analogy you explain to me about consent being like tea.
Speaker 1: It's imperfect, but I like it. So can you explain
Speaker 1: the tea analogy a little bit? Yeah, So this was
Speaker 1: a really viral thing. In twenty fifteen, there was this
Speaker 1: blog from Rockstar Dinosaur Pirate Princess comparing sexual consent to tea,
Speaker 1: and they were like, we can all understand that if
Speaker 1: you offer a person a cup of tea and they
Speaker 1: say no, you do not require them to drink tea.
Speaker 1: And if they say yes, and you spend the time
Speaker 1: boiling the water and brewing the tea and you bring
Speaker 1: it to them and they change their mind, you still
Speaker 1: don't insist that they the tea. Even though you went
Speaker 1: to all that trouble you made it they decided not
Speaker 1: to drink it all well, And because the person has
Speaker 1: come over to your house and had tea with you
Speaker 1: several times before, that does not mean there any obligation
Speaker 1: to come and have tea with you again. And for sure,
Speaker 1: if they like pass out between the time they said
Speaker 1: yes to tea and the time you bring them the tea,
Speaker 1: you don't pour tea down their throat. We can all
Speaker 1: get that, right, yep. One thing I do like about
Speaker 1: the tea analogy is that it helps frame consent as
Speaker 1: an ongoing conversation. I love that, and it also is
Speaker 1: a very easy way to understand that consent to tea
Speaker 1: isn't consent to biscuits. And honestly, in twenty fifteen, that
Speaker 1: was a really important language for a lot of people.
Speaker 1: It went superviral for a reason because it was so straightforward,
Speaker 1: but it did leave out some really important subtleties, Like
Speaker 1: I was thinking, Okay, so suppose person A offers tea.
Speaker 1: It's a person be Yeah, what are all the things
Speaker 1: that might be going through person Bee's head. Are they
Speaker 1: thinking I want this person's company or approval or friendship.
Speaker 1: I want to not be rude. I don't want to
Speaker 1: hurt their feelings. I want to follow the rules of
Speaker 1: this culture. Maybe I want to tell my friends that
Speaker 1: I had tea with this person. You know, I would
Speaker 1: like the sugar in the milk, but I don't want
Speaker 1: any actual tea. So what I want is a world
Speaker 1: where person B feels comfortable and confidence saying no, thank
Speaker 1: you please to the tea. But I would enjoy seeing
Speaker 1: what your tea cups look like and enjoying my own
Speaker 1: cup of sugar and milk. Also, I would really love
Speaker 1: to watch you drink tea. Yeah, okay, we need to
Speaker 1: take a break. I need to run to the little
Speaker 1: podcaster's room. And then when we get back, my girlfriend
Speaker 1: Alex is going to come on the show and we
Speaker 1: are going to get your advice, Emily on navigating this
Speaker 1: enthusiastic maybe within our relationship, and we're going to get
Speaker 1: some training lessons for the consent Olympics. All right, all right,
Speaker 1: we are back and Emily is going to help me
Speaker 1: and my girlfriend Alex navigate this question about should we
Speaker 1: go to this orgy? Hi, Alex, not your real name, girlfriend. Hello,
Speaker 1: thanks for coming and for calling in from the car
Speaker 1: instead of taking your lunch break. You're the best. So
Speaker 1: you want to introduce yourself? Yeah, hi everybody. I'm glad
Speaker 1: to be here, glad to have your health. Emily answering
Speaker 1: this question, my name is Alex. I'm non binary. I
Speaker 1: use the then pronounced. But one of the great thing
Speaker 1: about being queer and non binaries that you get to
Speaker 1: choose the language that works for you, which is why
Speaker 1: you know, Mo has been using the words like girlfriend
Speaker 1: and like lesbian for our relationship. Those words are comfy
Speaker 1: for us, so we use gendered language when it feels comfortable. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's me. I'm so excited. Thank you for helping us, Emily,
Speaker 1: I'm so excited too. All right, let's do it. Let's
Speaker 1: get right into it then, So Alex, can you start
Speaker 1: by explaining how you're feeling about potentially attending this orgy
Speaker 1: with me and any context, any set up you feel
Speaker 1: you need to do. Okay, So, Mo and I have
Speaker 1: been in a relationship for almost three years, and that's
Speaker 1: been a monogamous relationship. We have not opened that relationship
Speaker 1: and we've never had anyone else involved sexually in our relationship.
Speaker 1: And then we have some really fun friends in our
Speaker 1: lesbian friend group that have invited us to an orgy
Speaker 1: later this month, and it seems like a really fun opportunity. Intellectually, wait,
Speaker 1: really quick, what do you mean by you like the idea? Intellectually?
Speaker 1: What does that mean? I like the idea of going
Speaker 1: because how many times in my life am I going
Speaker 1: to be invited to something like this? But when I
Speaker 1: really think about it, I get really nervous because there's
Speaker 1: so many unknown factors and I just don't know how
Speaker 1: I'm going to feel when we're there, and I'm kind
Speaker 1: of scared that unexpected feelings will come up, but most
Speaker 1: seems a little bit more confident. I mean, yes, I
Speaker 1: am an enthusiastic Yes, I'm excited to potentially go. But again, like,
Speaker 1: this is a decision that we have to make together.
Speaker 1: The only situation where we will go is one where
Speaker 1: we are going together, and I want to make sure
Speaker 1: that when you say maybe, like we really explore what
Speaker 1: that actually means. So, first of all, do you have
Speaker 1: a sense that Alex, it's okay for you to say
Speaker 1: no to something when you feel ambivalent. That's a tricky question. Um.
Speaker 1: I sometimes feel like I'm not sure if I'm saying
Speaker 1: yes because it's you know, with within the context of
Speaker 1: sex or not if I was or request made of me.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I don't know if I'm saying yes because it's
Speaker 1: truly something I want to do, or if it's something
Speaker 1: I just feel obligated to do. You know. Being raised
Speaker 1: in the South, um, with the what is the language
Speaker 1: that you use, the female no, the I'm a girl package,
Speaker 1: it's a girl packet. You were raised to be a lady.
Speaker 1: It sounds like exactly, to be very polite and to
Speaker 1: always accept the tea when it's offered. To you, um, etc. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I have a hard time, you know, deciphering what
Speaker 1: I really want and what is expected of me. H,
Speaker 1: that's so important and no one ever talks about it.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited we're going there. Yeah. This is one
Speaker 1: of the big reasons we wanted to talk to you, Emily,
Speaker 1: is because we both identify as people pleasers. So when
Speaker 1: Alex and I have been talking together about if we
Speaker 1: want to go to this orgy, Alex, one thing I
Speaker 1: have heard you say again and again is like that
Speaker 1: you're worried it'll be rude if you go and you
Speaker 1: say no to everyone except for me. Yeah, I mean, okay,
Speaker 1: I've never done anything like this before. So one of
Speaker 1: my questions, I guess, is like, is my attendance at
Speaker 1: this party, this orgy implying consent to have sex with
Speaker 1: anyone else who is there. I know, intellectually no, like
Speaker 1: I should. I will be able to say no. I
Speaker 1: have autonomy if somebody approaches me and I'm not interestood,
Speaker 1: I can say like no, thank you. But like, there's
Speaker 1: something in me that I just don't know what the
Speaker 1: social rules of this space are. So that's one thing
Speaker 1: that is scaring me is there a space where I
Speaker 1: could just like Mo and I I could do our
Speaker 1: own thing in one area of the room and then
Speaker 1: kind of just like be witnessed and witness what else
Speaker 1: is going on? Is that considered rude? Or are we
Speaker 1: are we supposed to participate? Is everyone's supposed to have
Speaker 1: equal participation? I guess I'm nervous about, like, because it
Speaker 1: is a friend's house, a friend's party, and I'm used
Speaker 1: to being a good house guest. You know what the
Speaker 1: expectations are there. So really what you would like is
Speaker 1: an Emily Post manual of etiquette that I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: Emily Posts does not have a chapter on orgy etiquette,
Speaker 1: but the Emily Nagowski Guide is probably as close as
Speaker 1: we're ever gonna get. Yeah, I loved etiquete manuals when
Speaker 1: I was a kid. I'm super into that. And at
Speaker 1: the same time, like, you would never go to a
Speaker 1: party and have your attendance imply consent for any other
Speaker 1: kind of behavior, Like if you come to this you
Speaker 1: are definitely going to have at least four drinks, or
Speaker 1: if you come to this party, you must eat the
Speaker 1: shrim right. If you are really worried, ask the host
Speaker 1: about the ground rules. We can do that. If there
Speaker 1: are no ground rules, I'm going to say, don't go,
Speaker 1: but I bet there are. And then also, when you
Speaker 1: know what the ground rules are, talk about it between you,
Speaker 1: make plans for the things that you expect might be
Speaker 1: most comfortable or least comfortable. I would also say for
Speaker 1: the two of you to have a plan for how
Speaker 1: to stay attuned to Alex's level of ambivalence, so while
Speaker 1: you're there, their level of ambivalence is going to move
Speaker 1: around their level of comfort. And make a plan if
Speaker 1: you can feel sort of an escalation of the jealousy
Speaker 1: or the freak out or any of the other things,
Speaker 1: like if surprising feelings come up, which probably it will
Speaker 1: be surprising. And the great thing about a strong relationship,
Speaker 1: mo is you're one hundred percent committed to prioritizing your
Speaker 1: partners know above anything, right, Absolutely, Yes, of course, it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter how into something you are. If your partner
Speaker 1: comes over and says this is a no for me,
Speaker 1: then it's a no for us, right you stop? Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: And I think you can do some test runs or
Speaker 1: at least brainstormy. You can talk through the kinds of
Speaker 1: things you might experience so MO as the less ambivalent
Speaker 1: partner can say, Okay, so let's imagine someone invites me
Speaker 1: to do something and have you watched What are some
Speaker 1: things that I might do and how might you feel
Speaker 1: about it? Or you could swap it around. Suppose someone
Speaker 1: invites you, Alex to do something with me watching, or
Speaker 1: suppose there's someone I'd like to connect with with you
Speaker 1: talk through all those limits in an advance and think
Speaker 1: through what those situations might feel and be like, yeah,
Speaker 1: just sort of mix and match scenarios and then talk
Speaker 1: through how we might react to them together in the moment. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: For some reason, it feels like okay, touching body touching
Speaker 1: feels okay, but like kissing someone else or like seeing
Speaker 1: mo because someone else feels really intimate, Like yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm pro titty touching, pro grinding, all of that.
Speaker 1: Like it feels like, okay, you know, you're just dancing
Speaker 1: in a club, like there's just a lot of people around.
Speaker 1: Everybody's kind of bumping into each other. That feels fine,
Speaker 1: and there feels like a sense of anonymity around that
Speaker 1: even if I know those people but I don't know.
Speaker 1: Kissing just feels so intimate to me and uniquely romantic. Okay,
Speaker 1: see this is very good because we have never gotten
Speaker 1: this specific before in the conversation, Like I'm totally down
Speaker 1: to titty touch and grind, but not kiss other people.
Speaker 1: It sounds amazing, sounds hot. Yeah, but then how do
Speaker 1: we explain that to someone? So like if we were
Speaker 1: to work through a scenario now, like, okay, we're have it,
Speaker 1: we're doing our own thing, We're into each other at
Speaker 1: this party, and someone comes up to us and says, oh,
Speaker 1: can can I join you? Guys? How do we say, like, well, yes,
Speaker 1: you can touch me in this way, in this way,
Speaker 1: in this way, but not don't kiss me and don't
Speaker 1: kiss her, but where you can watch us kiss. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like feels like a lot of a lot of nose,
Speaker 1: a lot of information. Yeah, that's why you know these
Speaker 1: are advanced skills, right, because the question I'm asked all
Speaker 1: the time is how do I ask my partner for
Speaker 1: And this is the same, like how do I communicate
Speaker 1: to somebody else at this party what our limits are?
Speaker 1: And of course the answer is you just say, yeah,
Speaker 1: our limits is we're only kissing each other on the mouth,
Speaker 1: and nobody else we're into titty touching and to grinding.
Speaker 1: If that sounds good for you, what are your rules? Right?
Speaker 1: So the real question is not how do we do it?
Speaker 1: Because how you do it is you just say it.
Speaker 1: The question is what is it that's stopping you? What
Speaker 1: is stopping you from saying? Right now, we are not
Speaker 1: having tea, We are just having milk and sugar, and
Speaker 1: we are collecting teacups. M What would have to happen
Speaker 1: for you to feel comfortable speaking a boundary like that
Speaker 1: out loud? That's a great question. Yeah, what would need
Speaker 1: to happen? I think it would be helpful for us
Speaker 1: to work through hypothetical scenarios and also just to have
Speaker 1: a like an escape route. Heck, yes, you know, if
Speaker 1: one of us is ready to go, we go. There's
Speaker 1: no like negotiating like no, please, I really want to
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know. Is that is that wrong?
Speaker 1: To say no? No? That's great. It's called a hard no.
Speaker 1: Hard limits. There are soft limits, soft boundaries where you're
Speaker 1: willing and able to stretch, to try and explore, and
Speaker 1: you might hit a hard note. And some things are
Speaker 1: just like a hard no. Right now, I know that
Speaker 1: I'm done that's it's part of the language of consent,
Speaker 1: particularly in the BDSM community, which is another group that
Speaker 1: has more comprehensive conversations about consent than most folks ever do.
Speaker 1: And let me I feel as a public health person,
Speaker 1: I feel an obligation to say that part of your
Speaker 1: conversation can involve safety levels like risk of infection increases
Speaker 1: with different bodily fluids and touching different skin areas. So
Speaker 1: think about what fluids you're willing to share. Is sharing
Speaker 1: saliva with someone else okay? Is saliva meeting genitals secretions okay?
Speaker 1: Is hands on genital secretions okay? Or do you always
Speaker 1: want to have gloves on? How about genital to mouth?
Speaker 1: How about blood genital genital rubbing? Or what kind of
Speaker 1: barriers are acceptable to you? Or dam's an acceptable barrier?
Speaker 1: These are just the basic physical safety questions, but they
Speaker 1: can crack open other conversations about the emotional safety and
Speaker 1: how comfortable do you feel watching your partner with other people?
Speaker 1: Which behaviors are you okay watching? Which behaviors might you
Speaker 1: be okay doing while others are watching. Some people are
Speaker 1: really into exhibitionism, some people are really into voyeurism, and
Speaker 1: others are not so much. So one good starting place
Speaker 1: question is does Alex feel threatened if their partner is
Speaker 1: enthusiastically watching another couple makeout. M Yeah, I love this
Speaker 1: thought experiment, and like, intellectually, obviously, I love Mo. I
Speaker 1: trust MO. I feel very secure in our connection and relationship.
Speaker 1: I do not feel like, you know, if we go
Speaker 1: to this orgy, MO is going to run off with
Speaker 1: someone else and I'll never see her again, you know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: your relationship is not at stake. Yes, exactly, But the
Speaker 1: reality is like, i feel like these fantasy and hypotheticals
Speaker 1: aren't the same as the real thing. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm just notna know how I feel until I'm there,
Speaker 1: until you get there in the moment, and so yeah exactly,
Speaker 1: And will your body tell you how you feel in
Speaker 1: the moment? Yes? How much of a delay is there
Speaker 1: between when you feel something and when you're totally aware
Speaker 1: that you feel it and can articulate it. Oh, I'm
Speaker 1: very sensitive. I can. I get emotional very quickly. Actually,
Speaker 1: I'm afraid my biggest fear is that I'll cry at
Speaker 1: this orgy. Well if you cry, so what we deal
Speaker 1: with crying all the time? Post sex, it's like it happens.
Speaker 1: I don't want to be a bone or killer for
Speaker 1: everybody else one. There are some people who are super
Speaker 1: into crying in like a good way too. Crying after
Speaker 1: orgasm is definitely a thing that can happen. So you know,
Speaker 1: not all crying is indicative of just sheer discomfort. But
Speaker 1: I think the most important thing here is that you
Speaker 1: have that strong connection with your body. So if you
Speaker 1: just sustain that welcoming of what your body is saying
Speaker 1: without worrying about what it should be saying, which it
Speaker 1: sounds like, is like the conflict for you is on
Speaker 1: the one hand, this is how I feel and on
Speaker 1: the other hand, I feel like I'm supposed to be
Speaker 1: doing this other thing. Have that ambivalence and keep communicating
Speaker 1: about it. You are two people. You are having two
Speaker 1: different experiences. Both of them are valid and legitimate and important,
Speaker 1: and both of them are going to be ambivalent. Right
Speaker 1: and again, like, I'm not one hundred percent certain that
Speaker 1: I will be an enthusiastic yess throughout this whole experience.
Speaker 1: I'm an enthusiastic yess right now about the idea of it.
Speaker 1: Like if we go, we could get there and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, I'm an enthusiastic maybe, or I'm a
Speaker 1: maybe maybe or a no, and you're the yess Like,
Speaker 1: I think that's also very much a possibility. So, Emily,
Speaker 1: do you have any final pieces of advice for us,
Speaker 1: Like we're going to be talking about this tonight, maybe tomorrow,
Speaker 1: we're going to be making the decision in the next
Speaker 1: few days. Do you have any parting pieces of advice
Speaker 1: about separating our decisions from each other's desires or anyone
Speaker 1: else's desires. That experience of what you want feeling clouded
Speaker 1: by what other people want is so, so so important,
Speaker 1: and honestly, it's something you only learn to navigate by practicing.
Speaker 1: And the context where you can practice safely is when
Speaker 1: there are no unwanted consequences. Right, the relationship is not
Speaker 1: at stake, No one's going to judge you. Everything will
Speaker 1: be fine no matter what happens. You can practice and
Speaker 1: make mistakes because there's nothing at risk. There's nothing at stake,
Speaker 1: And if you decide to go, which you may just
Speaker 1: decide not to go, and that's fine too, But if
Speaker 1: you decide to go, make a plan for aftercare, for
Speaker 1: processing the residual feelings in the hours or maybe days
Speaker 1: or even weeks after word. Because this is a first
Speaker 1: time experience for both of you. My general recommendation for
Speaker 1: any first time experience is to go really slowly in
Speaker 1: your decision making, and it's better to look back on
Speaker 1: it and wish you had tried something more than to
Speaker 1: regret that you tried too much. Yeah, could I ask
Speaker 1: what would you say? Is one important thing? Not like
Speaker 1: the only pertant thing or the most important thing, but
Speaker 1: just an important What's an important thing that you're taking
Speaker 1: away from this conversation for me to realize. I do
Speaker 1: not feel insecure about my relationship to Mo or my
Speaker 1: connection with MO, and I do not fear that MO
Speaker 1: is going to run off with someone else. So I
Speaker 1: think that if I can get to a place with
Speaker 1: myself where I feel excited about going and feel, you know,
Speaker 1: like it could be a really on experience, which I
Speaker 1: do right now, I think that's the only thing standing
Speaker 1: in my way. That's great. Thank you. Yeah, of course,
Speaker 1: And you do not have to go. You are still
Speaker 1: under no obligation. Oh, I know, I know I could
Speaker 1: change my mind in five minutes before I Yeah, of course, Yep.
Speaker 1: I feel like whereas before I felt kind of like
Speaker 1: shameful and embarrassed to you know, think about it at all,
Speaker 1: And now I'm feeling a lot more confident and like
Speaker 1: dare I say, excited about the opportunity to go, and
Speaker 1: like I think it could be really fun. All right,
Speaker 1: we need to take a break, and Alex, I know
Speaker 1: you need to get back to work because you have
Speaker 1: been talking to us during your lunch break. So I
Speaker 1: just thank you for taking the time and being so
Speaker 1: honest and like willing to talk about this on the show.
Speaker 1: Of course, thank you so much for having me and Emily.
Speaker 1: This has been so helpful. I feel a lot more
Speaker 1: competent about this whole conversation and the potential of going,
Speaker 1: So thank you. I'm really excited. I have a lot
Speaker 1: to think about. That's so great. It's been really delightful
Speaker 1: meeting you. Thanks Alex. When we get back, we are
Speaker 1: going to highlight some of the major takeaways from our
Speaker 1: conversation because there are a lot, so we'll be back
Speaker 1: in a minute. All right, Emily, So I need a
Speaker 1: TLDR and some practical advice for my consent Olympics. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: and it has been not just basics for beginners, but
Speaker 1: advanced stuff, so to recap, enthusiastic consent is the gold standard, absolutely,
Speaker 1: and also open consent or willing consent is normal. In fact,
Speaker 1: my definition of normal sex is when everyone is glad
Speaker 1: to be there and free to leave with no unwanted consequences,
Speaker 1: plus no one's experiencing unwanted pain. It sounds really simple,
Speaker 1: but that doesn't always mean it's easy, especially in the
Speaker 1: context of rigid binary rules, which brings me to point
Speaker 1: number two. On the day you're born, people look at
Speaker 1: your genitals and they assign you a list of rules
Speaker 1: and regulations about who you're supposed to be as a
Speaker 1: sexual person. If you have the it's a girl package,
Speaker 1: you're taught to be pretty happy, called generous, and unfailingly
Speaker 1: attentive to the needs of others. And if you get
Speaker 1: the it's a boy package, you're supposed to be confident
Speaker 1: and constantly horny and totally incurious because you already know
Speaker 1: everything there is to know. It is a really toxic combination,
Speaker 1: and your access to enthusiastic consent will crack wide open
Speaker 1: when you begin eliminating the gender binary from your understanding
Speaker 1: of yourself as a sexual person. Three ambivalence is normal
Speaker 1: for two reasons. First, we all have a sexual accelerator
Speaker 1: that responds to sex related stimuli, and we all also
Speaker 1: have breaks that respond to all potential threats. That's the
Speaker 1: first reason why ambivalence is normal. But also second, we
Speaker 1: live in a world that fills our heads with mutually
Speaker 1: contradictory and often shaming messages about sex, and we bring
Speaker 1: those with us into a sexual context. So it's like
Speaker 1: our breaks are on kind of all the time, and
Speaker 1: so we bring ambivalence with us into a sexual context. Fourth,
Speaker 1: the solution for this For some people, it might be
Speaker 1: to say no to anything about which they feel ambivalent,
Speaker 1: and that's great. But another solution is to say yes
Speaker 1: to the things that you want and to communicate your
Speaker 1: ambivalence to your partner. Work out cooperative strategies so that
Speaker 1: you can explore at the edges of what feels yes
Speaker 1: while always having a door open for a no. And
Speaker 1: one more tip, a little bonus practice staying over your
Speaker 1: own emotional center of gravity. The ambivalence may feel like
Speaker 1: you're oscillating around a center right, swinging to the no
Speaker 1: and swinging to the yes, and that's normal as long
Speaker 1: as it doesn't knock you down. If you find yourself
Speaker 1: leaning on your partner to guide you instead of relying
Speaker 1: on your own internal sense of center, that's a sign
Speaker 1: that you're out of balance. Take a break then and
Speaker 1: start again when you're feeling more centered. If this episode
Speaker 1: has brought up a lot of feelings for you, when
Speaker 1: you want to process them with someone, or just read
Speaker 1: more about consent, check out the resources in our show notes.
Speaker 1: Next week, we are going to be answering maybe my
Speaker 1: favorite question that we've ever gotten on the Come as
Speaker 1: you Are hotline? Are you supposed to have sticks? When
Speaker 1: you get that old quote? I'm saying if you want it,
Speaker 1: I do want it. Come As You Are is a
Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries and Madison Wells. It's hosted by
Speaker 1: Emily Nagowski. You can find Emily on Instagram at e
Speaker 1: Nagowski and on Twitter at Emily Nagowski. You can also
Speaker 1: sign up for her newsletter at gimially Nagowski dot com,
Speaker 1: where she writes about everything from the clitteriest in your
Speaker 1: mind to orgasm after having hysterected me. It's an incredible newsletter.
Speaker 1: Highly recommended. This show is co hosted and Leave produced
Speaker 1: by me Mola Board. You can find me online at
Speaker 1: Mola board and on TikTok at podcast, dot slut, Sorry mom.
Speaker 1: My co producer on this show is the fabulous Brittany Brown.
Speaker 1: Our editor is Kate Parkinson Morgan. Sound design and mix
Speaker 1: by Anne Pope. Executive producers are Mia LaBelle and LEETL.
Speaker 1: Mallod at Pushkin Thanks to Heather Faine, Carl Migliori, Sophie Crane,
Speaker 1: Courtney Guarino, Jason Gambrel, Julia Barton, John Schnars, and Jacob
Speaker 1: Weisberg at Madison Wells. Thanks to Kylie Williams, Elizabeth Goodstein
Speaker 1: and Gg Pritzker. Additional thanks to Rich Stevens, Lindsay Edgecombe,
Speaker 1: Frolick Media, and Peter Acker at Armadillo Audio Group. Original
Speaker 1: music for this series was composed by Ameliagowski and arranged
Speaker 1: and recorded by Alexandra Kalinovsky. Additional music from Epidemic Sound.
Speaker 1: You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin Pods,
Speaker 1: and you can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin
Speaker 1: dot f M. If you love this show and others
Speaker 1: from Pushkin Industries, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus
Speaker 1: is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and uninterrupted
Speaker 1: listening for only four ninety nine a month. Look for
Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions or at pushkin dot fm.
Speaker 1: If you subscribe to Pushkin Plus, you can hear Come
Speaker 1: as you Are and other Pushkin shows add free, very nice,
Speaker 1: and you'll get episodes a week early. Sign up on
Speaker 1: the Come as you Are show page in Apple Podcasts
Speaker 1: or at pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts,
Speaker 1: listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
Speaker 1: like to listen