1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:21,676 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey everybody, this is a heads up that this 2 00:00:21,756 --> 00:00:27,036 Speaker 1: episode includes discussions of sexual consent or lack thereof, so 3 00:00:27,276 --> 00:00:29,636 Speaker 1: keep that in mind when you're listening. Yeah, we're going 4 00:00:29,676 --> 00:00:32,436 Speaker 1: to be talking specifically about the maybes that come up 5 00:00:32,476 --> 00:00:35,716 Speaker 1: in sex and how to navigate those, which, to be clear, 6 00:00:35,876 --> 00:00:39,956 Speaker 1: is different from coercion and manipulation in sex, but we 7 00:00:40,036 --> 00:00:43,116 Speaker 1: do talk about those topics too. So if this episode 8 00:00:43,116 --> 00:00:46,276 Speaker 1: brings up some feelings for you, we have resources in 9 00:00:46,316 --> 00:00:54,916 Speaker 1: our show notes. Okay, now onto the episode. Yi, Hi, Hi, 10 00:00:56,036 --> 00:00:59,036 Speaker 1: and I'm calling in. I have a question for you. 11 00:00:59,476 --> 00:01:04,156 Speaker 1: There has to be another way to teach consent that 12 00:01:04,316 --> 00:01:07,076 Speaker 1: does not you know, just use the word yes as 13 00:01:07,076 --> 00:01:14,476 Speaker 1: a stand in for consent. Amo, is this actually just 14 00:01:14,796 --> 00:01:17,876 Speaker 1: from you? Is this are you asking me for a friend? 15 00:01:18,636 --> 00:01:24,316 Speaker 1: How do you know? I am actually asking this question 16 00:01:24,436 --> 00:01:27,996 Speaker 1: for me and my girlfriend. I love that. It's a 17 00:01:28,076 --> 00:01:30,356 Speaker 1: dream come true. If I do nothing else with this podcast, 18 00:01:30,396 --> 00:01:34,876 Speaker 1: I want to make your personal sex life better. I'm 19 00:01:34,916 --> 00:01:37,876 Speaker 1: Emmily Nagaski and this is the Come as you Are 20 00:01:38,036 --> 00:01:43,916 Speaker 1: podcast where I answer questions about sex with science. In 21 00:01:43,916 --> 00:01:47,556 Speaker 1: this episode, we're talking about consent, and this is an 22 00:01:47,556 --> 00:01:50,476 Speaker 1: advanced class in consent where we talk about all the 23 00:01:50,596 --> 00:01:54,516 Speaker 1: nuances and power dynamics, and I want to introduce a 24 00:01:54,556 --> 00:02:01,276 Speaker 1: concept I call the enthusiastic maybe all the comfortable, joyful, 25 00:02:01,396 --> 00:02:07,716 Speaker 1: consensual maybes insects and how to navigate those. And here 26 00:02:07,756 --> 00:02:12,636 Speaker 1: with me is the one and only producer mo Hi Emily. Hello. 27 00:02:12,796 --> 00:02:17,076 Speaker 1: So this topic listeners might look at it and think, oh, 28 00:02:17,156 --> 00:02:21,596 Speaker 1: I understand consent completely. It's yes and no. It's black 29 00:02:21,596 --> 00:02:24,636 Speaker 1: and white. At least that is what I learned about 30 00:02:24,676 --> 00:02:28,836 Speaker 1: consent on a college campus in twenty fifteen. I was 31 00:02:28,836 --> 00:02:31,796 Speaker 1: taught that the only kind of consent is a verbal 32 00:02:32,356 --> 00:02:36,636 Speaker 1: enthusiastic yes. Yeah. If it's not an enthusiastic yes, then 33 00:02:36,676 --> 00:02:39,276 Speaker 1: it's an enthusiastic no. That seems to be yeah what 34 00:02:39,436 --> 00:02:42,676 Speaker 1: young sex educators are teaching now. I recently took my 35 00:02:42,756 --> 00:02:47,916 Speaker 1: first foray into TikTok sex education because you told me 36 00:02:48,036 --> 00:02:50,596 Speaker 1: there were sex educators on TikTok, and the very first 37 00:02:50,716 --> 00:02:54,516 Speaker 1: video I saw was like, enthusiastic consent is the only consent. 38 00:02:55,796 --> 00:02:59,636 Speaker 1: I'm sure you are extremely familiar with the enthusiastic yes 39 00:02:59,756 --> 00:03:03,516 Speaker 1: model because you were a peer educator on college campuses, 40 00:03:03,636 --> 00:03:06,516 Speaker 1: right yep, back in the mid nineties, I was, and 41 00:03:06,596 --> 00:03:09,356 Speaker 1: what I learned to teach was yes means yes. No 42 00:03:09,516 --> 00:03:12,716 Speaker 1: means no, silence means no, maybe means no, I'm not 43 00:03:12,756 --> 00:03:16,596 Speaker 1: sure means no. Only yes means yes. So to help 44 00:03:16,636 --> 00:03:20,796 Speaker 1: explain this sort of enthusiastic consent, you say yes when 45 00:03:20,836 --> 00:03:23,436 Speaker 1: you want to, When you have no fear of the 46 00:03:23,476 --> 00:03:26,996 Speaker 1: consequences of saying yes or the consequences of saying no. 47 00:03:27,116 --> 00:03:30,756 Speaker 1: You are fully free, right, Like, it's not only that 48 00:03:30,796 --> 00:03:35,196 Speaker 1: both people are at a yes. You are enthusiastic about 49 00:03:35,196 --> 00:03:38,276 Speaker 1: the sex. You're super excited about the sex you're having. 50 00:03:39,476 --> 00:03:42,876 Speaker 1: There's a simplicity to the enthusiastic yes is the only 51 00:03:42,956 --> 00:03:45,836 Speaker 1: kind of consent. And I can see why that is 52 00:03:45,916 --> 00:03:48,916 Speaker 1: so important for people who are just starting out of 53 00:03:48,996 --> 00:03:53,196 Speaker 1: having sex to learn, like enthusiastic yes, Like that's a 54 00:03:53,236 --> 00:03:57,236 Speaker 1: great place to start, but it can't be the end 55 00:03:57,236 --> 00:04:00,356 Speaker 1: of the conversation. I really think it's just the beginning 56 00:04:00,396 --> 00:04:05,196 Speaker 1: of the conversation about consent. And like you said, enthusiastic yes, 57 00:04:05,556 --> 00:04:11,756 Speaker 1: it doesn't encompass the comfortable and consensual maybees that do 58 00:04:11,996 --> 00:04:17,396 Speaker 1: come up insects. Yea, And that is what I want 59 00:04:17,396 --> 00:04:20,156 Speaker 1: to talk about with you today. It just pop my 60 00:04:20,276 --> 00:04:27,476 Speaker 1: Lacroix Open Delicious. We're not sponsored by Lacroix. I'm just 61 00:04:27,516 --> 00:04:30,796 Speaker 1: a stereotype. Okay, Emily, are you ready to hear more 62 00:04:30,836 --> 00:04:33,876 Speaker 1: about my question? I am, I'm ready. As you know, 63 00:04:34,036 --> 00:04:36,956 Speaker 1: we spend a lot of time together answering questions from 64 00:04:37,116 --> 00:04:40,476 Speaker 1: people who call into the hotline. So recently we were 65 00:04:40,516 --> 00:04:44,796 Speaker 1: talking about this concept of the enthusiastic maybe. I was like, 66 00:04:45,356 --> 00:04:48,596 Speaker 1: hot day, that's new information for me, and I really 67 00:04:48,596 --> 00:04:51,956 Speaker 1: love it. And then I realized, like, wait, my girlfriend 68 00:04:51,956 --> 00:04:55,196 Speaker 1: and I are currently in a situation where we need 69 00:04:55,236 --> 00:05:00,716 Speaker 1: help navigating and enthusiastic maybe in our relationship. So how 70 00:05:00,756 --> 00:05:11,076 Speaker 1: do you feel about helping us? I consent enthusiastically so cheesy. Okay, 71 00:05:11,516 --> 00:05:15,756 Speaker 1: So my girlfriend Alex Air quotes Alex. It's going to 72 00:05:15,796 --> 00:05:17,916 Speaker 1: come on the episode a little bit later so you 73 00:05:17,916 --> 00:05:20,876 Speaker 1: can hear from both of our perspectives. But for now, 74 00:05:20,956 --> 00:05:23,116 Speaker 1: let me just summarize the situation up at the top. 75 00:05:23,676 --> 00:05:28,476 Speaker 1: Alex and I were invited to an orgy. Okay, it 76 00:05:28,596 --> 00:05:32,076 Speaker 1: is our first time being invited to an orgy, and 77 00:05:32,316 --> 00:05:36,996 Speaker 1: it's a queer like ABCD party anybody but assistudes, and 78 00:05:37,196 --> 00:05:39,836 Speaker 1: it's organized by one of our friends who's like this 79 00:05:40,236 --> 00:05:43,916 Speaker 1: queer power connector and there's a Google form where you 80 00:05:43,956 --> 00:05:46,396 Speaker 1: fill out your vaccination status and it has all this 81 00:05:46,516 --> 00:05:52,276 Speaker 1: safety information. But here's our question. So we would only 82 00:05:52,316 --> 00:05:55,516 Speaker 1: go together. There is not a world where one of 83 00:05:55,596 --> 00:05:59,436 Speaker 1: us would go without the other one. Now I am 84 00:05:59,516 --> 00:06:03,716 Speaker 1: an enthusiastic Yes, I want to go. I'm feeling like yolo. 85 00:06:03,796 --> 00:06:06,956 Speaker 1: It sounds super fun, sounds hot. I love it. But 86 00:06:07,156 --> 00:06:12,396 Speaker 1: my girlfriend Alex is less sure. They're definitely curious about going, 87 00:06:12,676 --> 00:06:16,796 Speaker 1: but they're nervous. So the orgy is coming up in 88 00:06:16,836 --> 00:06:19,556 Speaker 1: a few weeks, and every time we talk about if 89 00:06:19,556 --> 00:06:22,556 Speaker 1: we're gonna go, we just like, uh, we don't know 90 00:06:22,596 --> 00:06:25,356 Speaker 1: we're gonna do. We get stuck at this place where 91 00:06:25,396 --> 00:06:29,596 Speaker 1: Alex is like maybe, but I'm scared, and I'm like, 92 00:06:29,796 --> 00:06:31,516 Speaker 1: you don't have to go, and they're like, but I 93 00:06:31,596 --> 00:06:34,516 Speaker 1: kind of want to. I'm just scared, and we get 94 00:06:34,596 --> 00:06:37,636 Speaker 1: like we just hit an impass and we say like, Okay, 95 00:06:37,716 --> 00:06:41,116 Speaker 1: we'll come back to this tomorrow. But it actually seems 96 00:06:41,116 --> 00:06:43,196 Speaker 1: like we are not equipped to have the level of 97 00:06:43,236 --> 00:06:47,956 Speaker 1: conversation that we need to have. And like we said 98 00:06:47,996 --> 00:06:50,836 Speaker 1: in the beginning of this episode, everything I have learned 99 00:06:50,836 --> 00:06:54,196 Speaker 1: about consent up until this point is like, if it's 100 00:06:54,276 --> 00:06:59,396 Speaker 1: not an enthusiastic yes from everybody involved, then it can't happen. Period. 101 00:07:00,156 --> 00:07:06,396 Speaker 1: And you know, Alex is curious and interested but unsure, 102 00:07:06,436 --> 00:07:10,436 Speaker 1: like they are ultimately a maybe. So the first part 103 00:07:10,436 --> 00:07:13,756 Speaker 1: of our question is like, how do we actually handle 104 00:07:13,876 --> 00:07:17,676 Speaker 1: a maybe in real life? And the second part of 105 00:07:17,676 --> 00:07:21,916 Speaker 1: our question is that if we go, we're like, oh shit, 106 00:07:22,076 --> 00:07:25,916 Speaker 1: this is going to be the consent Olympics. Not that 107 00:07:26,036 --> 00:07:28,436 Speaker 1: it's a competition, of course, but I just mean that 108 00:07:28,516 --> 00:07:31,076 Speaker 1: we're going to an orgy for the first time together. 109 00:07:31,796 --> 00:07:34,796 Speaker 1: So if we go, we'll be navigating like our different 110 00:07:34,876 --> 00:07:38,396 Speaker 1: levels of comfort and enthusiasm. And it seems like the 111 00:07:38,516 --> 00:07:41,316 Speaker 1: kind of situation where we will need to be constantly 112 00:07:41,756 --> 00:07:45,676 Speaker 1: evaluating and communicating the consent that we have with each 113 00:07:45,676 --> 00:07:48,876 Speaker 1: other and any new consent that we might be bringing 114 00:07:48,916 --> 00:07:53,476 Speaker 1: in if you know there's someone else involved. It's like, Okay, 115 00:07:53,676 --> 00:07:56,236 Speaker 1: if we're going to go to the consent Olympics, we 116 00:07:56,316 --> 00:07:58,716 Speaker 1: need a session with a trainer. Yeah, this is an 117 00:07:58,716 --> 00:08:05,636 Speaker 1: advanced consent situation, not for beginners. And I feel so 118 00:08:05,796 --> 00:08:09,796 Speaker 1: thrilled that I get to help you work out this situation. 119 00:08:11,196 --> 00:08:14,076 Speaker 1: And I gotta say, like, if you're listening and thinking, oh, 120 00:08:14,116 --> 00:08:15,836 Speaker 1: I'm never going to go to an orgy, so this 121 00:08:15,876 --> 00:08:18,996 Speaker 1: isn't applicable to me. I really think that this concept 122 00:08:19,036 --> 00:08:25,356 Speaker 1: of enthusiastic maybe is applicable in so many other situations. Yeah, Like, 123 00:08:25,436 --> 00:08:28,516 Speaker 1: I think it's really common whenever one partner wants to 124 00:08:28,556 --> 00:08:31,916 Speaker 1: try something new, Like let's say one partner wants to 125 00:08:31,916 --> 00:08:36,876 Speaker 1: try watching point together or having anal sex, having a threesome. 126 00:08:37,156 --> 00:08:40,156 Speaker 1: I think these are really common, and I think those 127 00:08:40,156 --> 00:08:44,156 Speaker 1: are all times where an enthusiastic maybe might apply. And 128 00:08:44,196 --> 00:08:47,396 Speaker 1: that's part of the same conversation that we're having here. Yeah, 129 00:08:47,476 --> 00:08:52,156 Speaker 1: so let's do this thing. Where should we start. Let's 130 00:08:52,156 --> 00:08:55,716 Speaker 1: begin by making sure everybody's got the very basic basics, 131 00:08:56,316 --> 00:09:00,716 Speaker 1: which is by saying that consent is the starting line, 132 00:09:01,036 --> 00:09:04,596 Speaker 1: not the finish line. We want to bring our partners pleasure. 133 00:09:04,676 --> 00:09:08,236 Speaker 1: We want to share pleasure. We want to have good sex, 134 00:09:08,436 --> 00:09:11,436 Speaker 1: great sex, or brain melting sex. Right. We don't want 135 00:09:11,436 --> 00:09:13,716 Speaker 1: to listen to a sex podcast to learn to have 136 00:09:13,956 --> 00:09:17,836 Speaker 1: bare minimum consensual sex. We don't want our partner to 137 00:09:17,876 --> 00:09:20,196 Speaker 1: wake up at the morning and say, hmmm, last night 138 00:09:20,356 --> 00:09:25,276 Speaker 1: was so consensual, right, I mean no, we definitely want 139 00:09:25,316 --> 00:09:28,636 Speaker 1: that we definitely don't want the alternative, But I mean, 140 00:09:29,196 --> 00:09:35,996 Speaker 1: is that your standard for a great night that was consensual? Yeah? No, 141 00:09:36,156 --> 00:09:40,836 Speaker 1: If I had hot sex, it was consensual sex. Yeah. Yeah. 142 00:09:40,876 --> 00:09:44,396 Speaker 1: So when I was teaching about responsive desire, remember we 143 00:09:44,396 --> 00:09:47,476 Speaker 1: had an episode on responsive desire, it's desire that emerges 144 00:09:47,556 --> 00:09:52,196 Speaker 1: in response to pleasure rather than in anticipation of pleasure, 145 00:09:53,436 --> 00:09:57,036 Speaker 1: it became clear that the conversation about consent needed to 146 00:09:57,036 --> 00:10:01,636 Speaker 1: be more nuanced than just enthusiastic. Yes, because the point 147 00:10:01,676 --> 00:10:05,476 Speaker 1: of responsive desire is your enthusiasm emerges only once you 148 00:10:05,596 --> 00:10:08,156 Speaker 1: have preheated the oven, right, you have to sort of 149 00:10:08,516 --> 00:10:10,956 Speaker 1: get start. And you and I have spent a lot 150 00:10:10,996 --> 00:10:13,276 Speaker 1: of time in this series talking about the dual control 151 00:10:13,316 --> 00:10:16,396 Speaker 1: model that breaks and the accelerator. Yeah, And for me, 152 00:10:16,556 --> 00:10:18,876 Speaker 1: one of the key things about the dual control model 153 00:10:19,876 --> 00:10:25,676 Speaker 1: is it tells us why and how ambivalence is normal. 154 00:10:26,876 --> 00:10:29,676 Speaker 1: We are often in context that are full of stuff 155 00:10:29,676 --> 00:10:34,036 Speaker 1: that activates the accelerator and also stuff that hits the breaks. 156 00:10:34,076 --> 00:10:37,076 Speaker 1: So you imagine you're just at the generic party and 157 00:10:37,156 --> 00:10:40,356 Speaker 1: you're making out and turned on and lots of accelerator 158 00:10:40,476 --> 00:10:43,556 Speaker 1: is happening, but also you're here in public, and that 159 00:10:43,676 --> 00:10:46,636 Speaker 1: doesn't seem okay, and let's go somewhere else, right accelerator 160 00:10:46,676 --> 00:10:49,156 Speaker 1: and breaks at the same time, or you're in bed 161 00:10:49,196 --> 00:10:52,076 Speaker 1: together and it's super hot, but not unless you've got 162 00:10:52,116 --> 00:10:57,396 Speaker 1: a condom, my friend. Just living in the intensely sex 163 00:10:57,476 --> 00:11:00,836 Speaker 1: negative world that many of us live in, a lot 164 00:11:00,876 --> 00:11:05,956 Speaker 1: of us have culturally imposed shame hitting our breaks kind 165 00:11:05,956 --> 00:11:10,836 Speaker 1: of all the time, so our enthusiasm is always held 166 00:11:10,836 --> 00:11:13,396 Speaker 1: back by that feeling that we're not even supposed to 167 00:11:13,436 --> 00:11:17,436 Speaker 1: be enthusiastic for sex, except that if we're enthusiastic, that's 168 00:11:17,436 --> 00:11:19,316 Speaker 1: the only time that we're allowed to have the sex. 169 00:11:19,356 --> 00:11:21,276 Speaker 1: And if you can't get to enthusiasm, then you shouldn't 170 00:11:21,276 --> 00:11:24,236 Speaker 1: even me saying yes. Yeah, an enthusiastic yes is like 171 00:11:24,276 --> 00:11:26,996 Speaker 1: a high bar. Yeah. We call it the gold standard. 172 00:11:28,316 --> 00:11:30,756 Speaker 1: Another thing I've been thinking about is a lot of 173 00:11:30,756 --> 00:11:36,316 Speaker 1: times the level of conversation about consent gets brought down, 174 00:11:36,556 --> 00:11:40,556 Speaker 1: you know, to be a conversation directed at that person 175 00:11:40,716 --> 00:11:45,596 Speaker 1: who needs to hear like don't assault someone. And obviously 176 00:11:45,716 --> 00:11:49,876 Speaker 1: I understand why the conversation is catered to that person 177 00:11:50,036 --> 00:11:54,556 Speaker 1: because they really need to hear that message. But at 178 00:11:54,556 --> 00:11:59,076 Speaker 1: the same time, if the only conversations we have are 179 00:11:59,116 --> 00:12:01,436 Speaker 1: the ones that are catered to that person that needs 180 00:12:01,476 --> 00:12:06,076 Speaker 1: to hear, you know, how to not be violent. Then 181 00:12:06,516 --> 00:12:13,436 Speaker 1: we're losing so much nuance about power, communication, gender, all 182 00:12:13,516 --> 00:12:17,916 Speaker 1: the things that play into consent. Yeah. One thing that's 183 00:12:17,956 --> 00:12:21,476 Speaker 1: really interesting to me is like how the cultural definition 184 00:12:21,676 --> 00:12:25,156 Speaker 1: of consent has changed over time. This is my women's 185 00:12:25,156 --> 00:12:28,756 Speaker 1: Studies degree coming out. But you know, for my grandmother 186 00:12:29,236 --> 00:12:32,196 Speaker 1: it was in nineteen fifty it was like, there is 187 00:12:32,236 --> 00:12:34,676 Speaker 1: no such thing as consent within a marriage. If you 188 00:12:34,756 --> 00:12:38,356 Speaker 1: got married, you're consenting, yea. And for my mom in 189 00:12:38,396 --> 00:12:42,316 Speaker 1: the seventies, there was like some no means no jargon. 190 00:12:42,716 --> 00:12:45,596 Speaker 1: And then for me when I got to college, there 191 00:12:45,796 --> 00:12:50,396 Speaker 1: was like enthusiastic verbal yes yes means yes. So I 192 00:12:50,436 --> 00:12:52,116 Speaker 1: was wondering if you could like give me a little 193 00:12:52,116 --> 00:12:57,716 Speaker 1: cultural history of the definitions of consent. Yeah, that basically 194 00:12:57,916 --> 00:13:01,596 Speaker 1: tracks in my original training in the mid nineties, I 195 00:13:01,676 --> 00:13:04,476 Speaker 1: was taught yes means yes, everything else means no, and 196 00:13:04,516 --> 00:13:07,116 Speaker 1: that was still pretty progressive at the time. Let me 197 00:13:07,196 --> 00:13:11,956 Speaker 1: add that marital rape was only finally outlawed everywhere in 198 00:13:11,996 --> 00:13:14,836 Speaker 1: the United States when I was in high school in 199 00:13:14,836 --> 00:13:19,316 Speaker 1: the early nineties. Oh, we have come a long way 200 00:13:20,236 --> 00:13:25,356 Speaker 1: fast your grandmother might even be legally correct that there 201 00:13:25,436 --> 00:13:28,916 Speaker 1: was no such thing as non consensual married sex. Yeah, 202 00:13:28,956 --> 00:13:32,236 Speaker 1: about your right, I mean in Louisiana in nineteen fifty four. 203 00:13:33,036 --> 00:13:34,836 Speaker 1: On the one hand, we've come a long way fast, 204 00:13:34,876 --> 00:13:37,116 Speaker 1: and on the other hand, a lot of this stuff 205 00:13:37,156 --> 00:13:41,276 Speaker 1: just clings like it will not let go. So about 206 00:13:41,316 --> 00:13:44,796 Speaker 1: ten years ago, it was actually exactly ten years ago, 207 00:13:45,076 --> 00:13:50,636 Speaker 1: I started talking about willing consent in addition to enthusiastic consent, 208 00:13:51,396 --> 00:13:55,036 Speaker 1: to make space for responsive desire. I learned this language 209 00:13:55,036 --> 00:13:58,116 Speaker 1: of willing consent from a sex therapist, Susanna i Assenza, 210 00:13:58,316 --> 00:14:00,996 Speaker 1: who's in New York City, but a student of mine. 211 00:14:01,036 --> 00:14:04,556 Speaker 1: Felt like the word willing leaves too much room for 212 00:14:04,716 --> 00:14:08,876 Speaker 1: interpretation of like willingness could be like, oh, yes, okay, 213 00:14:09,156 --> 00:14:12,556 Speaker 1: I guess like that's willingness, like if you must, or 214 00:14:12,956 --> 00:14:15,716 Speaker 1: you're like you have a sense of obligation, rather than sure, 215 00:14:15,876 --> 00:14:18,276 Speaker 1: let's see what happens, which is what I mean when 216 00:14:18,316 --> 00:14:21,516 Speaker 1: I say willing. So we sort of decided that open 217 00:14:21,716 --> 00:14:28,716 Speaker 1: or openness has a warmer connotation of readiness, appreciation, poorousness connection. 218 00:14:29,676 --> 00:14:31,756 Speaker 1: I've been trying to make it even simpler over the 219 00:14:31,836 --> 00:14:34,596 Speaker 1: last ten years. So I booled it down to this, 220 00:14:35,876 --> 00:14:39,036 Speaker 1: that the key is for everyone to be glad to 221 00:14:39,116 --> 00:14:46,076 Speaker 1: be there and free to leave with no unwanted consequences. 222 00:14:46,076 --> 00:14:49,156 Speaker 1: Plus there's no one wanted pain. And when I say 223 00:14:49,196 --> 00:14:51,356 Speaker 1: no one wanted consequences, of course, I mean no one 224 00:14:51,396 --> 00:14:56,956 Speaker 1: wanted physical consequences obviously, but also no social consequences, no 225 00:14:57,036 --> 00:15:00,956 Speaker 1: emotional consequences. The relationship is not at all at stake. 226 00:15:01,596 --> 00:15:04,556 Speaker 1: No one has anything to lose, No one will judge 227 00:15:04,556 --> 00:15:07,996 Speaker 1: you for stopping. Everyone will be completely fine with whatever happens, 228 00:15:08,036 --> 00:15:11,436 Speaker 1: because what matters most to everyone involved is that everyone 229 00:15:11,516 --> 00:15:16,116 Speaker 1: has a good time. Oh my god, Okay, glad to 230 00:15:16,156 --> 00:15:22,716 Speaker 1: be there, free to leave without fear of any unwanted consequences. 231 00:15:23,596 --> 00:15:28,196 Speaker 1: I love that definition. I mean, obviously there can be 232 00:15:28,396 --> 00:15:34,156 Speaker 1: physical consequences and violence for saying no, but I also 233 00:15:34,236 --> 00:15:39,516 Speaker 1: think we don't talk enough about emotional punishment for saying no. 234 00:15:40,196 --> 00:15:42,756 Speaker 1: Like let's say your partner gets mad at you or 235 00:15:42,956 --> 00:15:46,516 Speaker 1: gives you this silent treatment or shuts down, Like those 236 00:15:46,516 --> 00:15:50,676 Speaker 1: are all unwanted consequences that I think sometimes people fear 237 00:15:51,236 --> 00:15:54,756 Speaker 1: when they're they're doing that mental calculus if like do 238 00:15:54,796 --> 00:15:57,316 Speaker 1: I want to do this or am I just like 239 00:15:57,956 --> 00:16:00,916 Speaker 1: acquiescing because I don't want to have to deal with 240 00:16:00,956 --> 00:16:04,636 Speaker 1: the unwanted consequences of saying no. And I know that 241 00:16:05,116 --> 00:16:07,116 Speaker 1: this is a very binary way to look at it, 242 00:16:07,156 --> 00:16:09,396 Speaker 1: but like, just having had sex with s for a 243 00:16:09,396 --> 00:16:12,396 Speaker 1: few years of my life, I'm like, the amount of 244 00:16:12,996 --> 00:16:16,516 Speaker 1: temper tantrums I had to deal with because they didn't 245 00:16:16,556 --> 00:16:21,196 Speaker 1: get the sex they wanted is unbelievable. Like so many 246 00:16:21,196 --> 00:16:24,996 Speaker 1: men are really out there acting like that all the time. 247 00:16:25,116 --> 00:16:29,076 Speaker 1: And that I think, you know, free to leave without 248 00:16:29,116 --> 00:16:33,076 Speaker 1: fear of unwanted consequence is like a very overdue addition 249 00:16:33,196 --> 00:16:37,956 Speaker 1: to the definition of consent exactly. Yeah, And there's actually 250 00:16:38,116 --> 00:16:41,436 Speaker 1: a lot of advancement happening in this conversation from a 251 00:16:41,516 --> 00:16:47,196 Speaker 1: relatively surprising source. The asexual community has really been at 252 00:16:47,196 --> 00:16:51,676 Speaker 1: the forefront of broadening this definition of consent. A few 253 00:16:51,676 --> 00:16:53,956 Speaker 1: months ago, I got to talk to the journalist and 254 00:16:54,076 --> 00:16:57,956 Speaker 1: editor Angela Chen. She's asexual, and she wrote a book 255 00:16:57,956 --> 00:17:01,716 Speaker 1: called Ace What Asexuality Reveals about Desire, society, and the 256 00:17:01,756 --> 00:17:04,716 Speaker 1: meaning of sex. She said this thing about consent that 257 00:17:04,756 --> 00:17:08,676 Speaker 1: I really love. She said, the idea that enthusiastic consent 258 00:17:08,796 --> 00:17:12,196 Speaker 1: is the only real consent. It essentially cast doubt on 259 00:17:12,236 --> 00:17:18,356 Speaker 1: the ability of aces of asexual people to give consent. Uh. 260 00:17:18,396 --> 00:17:22,476 Speaker 1: Because so, for a really quick primer, asexuality is a 261 00:17:22,516 --> 00:17:27,196 Speaker 1: sexual orientation where you were not sexually attracted to anyone, 262 00:17:28,316 --> 00:17:33,076 Speaker 1: but there are sex favorable asexual folks who may say 263 00:17:33,516 --> 00:17:38,276 Speaker 1: a willing or open yes. Uh huh. I'm also thinking 264 00:17:38,276 --> 00:17:42,676 Speaker 1: about sex work and sex workers who are consenting, but 265 00:17:42,836 --> 00:17:45,916 Speaker 1: they might not be enthusiastic. Yeah. A lot of us 266 00:17:45,956 --> 00:17:50,756 Speaker 1: show for work not enthusiastic. Yeah. I'm really glad you 267 00:17:50,836 --> 00:17:54,276 Speaker 1: brought up the ace community, the asexual community, and Angela 268 00:17:54,316 --> 00:17:59,276 Speaker 1: Tan in particular, because I think it underscores this important 269 00:17:59,316 --> 00:18:03,636 Speaker 1: point that, like enthusiastic consent is too blunt of an 270 00:18:03,636 --> 00:18:07,836 Speaker 1: instrument to try to put onto everyone's personal definitions of 271 00:18:07,876 --> 00:18:11,236 Speaker 1: what consent feels like to them. Another thing I've been 272 00:18:11,276 --> 00:18:16,836 Speaker 1: thinking about is this antiquated hetero cultural script that is 273 00:18:16,876 --> 00:18:20,156 Speaker 1: still out there that says, like, to be a quote 274 00:18:20,196 --> 00:18:24,196 Speaker 1: unquote good sexual partner, then you need to be willing 275 00:18:24,236 --> 00:18:28,036 Speaker 1: to try the things your partner wants to try. I 276 00:18:28,116 --> 00:18:33,116 Speaker 1: struggle with that because obviously sometimes people might fit into 277 00:18:33,156 --> 00:18:37,236 Speaker 1: that model when they're feeling like enthusiastic maybe yeah, But 278 00:18:37,316 --> 00:18:41,476 Speaker 1: I think other times that model leaves so much room 279 00:18:41,596 --> 00:18:45,916 Speaker 1: for like pressure and coercion and emotional manipulation like oh, 280 00:18:45,956 --> 00:18:47,516 Speaker 1: if you're going to be a good partner to me, 281 00:18:47,596 --> 00:18:50,156 Speaker 1: I need you to do X, y Z. Thing that 282 00:18:50,316 --> 00:18:53,636 Speaker 1: is not the equivalent of the enthusiastic Maybe. That's like 283 00:18:54,316 --> 00:18:57,836 Speaker 1: a sort of cultural script that could overlap with the 284 00:18:57,956 --> 00:19:01,836 Speaker 1: enthusiastic maybe, but also could overlap with a much darker 285 00:19:01,956 --> 00:19:08,436 Speaker 1: and non consensual situation. Yes, that is exactly where the 286 00:19:08,516 --> 00:19:13,436 Speaker 1: sort of dinesses. And I just again love the definition 287 00:19:13,476 --> 00:19:16,996 Speaker 1: you have about free to leave without fear of unwanted 288 00:19:17,036 --> 00:19:22,356 Speaker 1: consequences because it acknowledges like the power dynamics and the 289 00:19:22,436 --> 00:19:28,276 Speaker 1: motivations behind the words yes and no. Yes, that's exactly 290 00:19:28,316 --> 00:19:31,716 Speaker 1: the goal, because it's true that in the real world, 291 00:19:31,876 --> 00:19:36,076 Speaker 1: not everyone is equally free to say yes or no. Right. 292 00:19:37,236 --> 00:19:39,436 Speaker 1: In Burnout, the book that I write with my sister, 293 00:19:39,916 --> 00:19:43,156 Speaker 1: we describe the social expectations for anyone assigned the It's 294 00:19:43,196 --> 00:19:46,116 Speaker 1: a Girl package of rules and regulations. We say that 295 00:19:46,156 --> 00:19:49,436 Speaker 1: we are assigned the role of being human givers, and 296 00:19:49,476 --> 00:19:54,276 Speaker 1: we are expected to be at all times without fail. Ready, 297 00:19:54,316 --> 00:19:56,596 Speaker 1: here's the list. Yes, hit it with the list eily 298 00:19:57,116 --> 00:20:03,036 Speaker 1: morally obligated to be pretty happy yet calm, generous, and 299 00:20:03,156 --> 00:20:08,756 Speaker 1: attentive to the needs of other thing. So if someone 300 00:20:08,836 --> 00:20:11,636 Speaker 1: is aessing their internal experience, they may notice it. On 301 00:20:11,676 --> 00:20:14,596 Speaker 1: the one hand, they're not really interested in like what 302 00:20:14,636 --> 00:20:16,996 Speaker 1: their partners doing and like it could be better, and 303 00:20:17,076 --> 00:20:20,756 Speaker 1: also they feel a moral obligation to make their partner 304 00:20:20,796 --> 00:20:23,756 Speaker 1: happy and make sure their needs are met. So even 305 00:20:23,796 --> 00:20:27,236 Speaker 1: a situation that everyone is glad to be there, but 306 00:20:27,276 --> 00:20:29,916 Speaker 1: maybe your partners touch you in a way that's very 307 00:20:29,916 --> 00:20:32,876 Speaker 1: well intentioned, but it's just not doing it for you, 308 00:20:33,316 --> 00:20:37,396 Speaker 1: and your partner goes, do you like that? What do 309 00:20:37,436 --> 00:20:44,556 Speaker 1: we say as human givers? Yeah, we're like, yeah, yeah, 310 00:20:44,716 --> 00:20:48,196 Speaker 1: rather than saying actually a little pressure and a little 311 00:20:49,036 --> 00:20:53,076 Speaker 1: little little more speed would be bad. We don't want 312 00:20:53,116 --> 00:20:57,076 Speaker 1: to hurt our partners feelings or make them feel criticized totally. 313 00:20:57,636 --> 00:21:00,916 Speaker 1: And then on the other side, there's the of the binary, 314 00:21:00,956 --> 00:21:03,076 Speaker 1: there's the people assigning. It's a boy package of rules 315 00:21:03,116 --> 00:21:05,956 Speaker 1: and regulations. I've started to call them the human winners 316 00:21:06,796 --> 00:21:11,876 Speaker 1: because they're allowed to feel horny, winning and angry and 317 00:21:11,996 --> 00:21:15,236 Speaker 1: that's it. But above all, they're supposed to know everything 318 00:21:15,236 --> 00:21:18,756 Speaker 1: about sex already without ever asking questions or making mistakes 319 00:21:18,756 --> 00:21:22,956 Speaker 1: from receiving any feedback, so they're trained to be sensitive 320 00:21:22,996 --> 00:21:26,876 Speaker 1: to hearing their partners say a little more pressure and 321 00:21:26,996 --> 00:21:34,756 Speaker 1: a little more speed, and you're basically criticizing their entire identity. 322 00:21:35,636 --> 00:21:37,996 Speaker 1: And this goes back to the timber tantrum thing, like 323 00:21:38,796 --> 00:21:43,556 Speaker 1: this gender rules thing. It helps explain why some sis 324 00:21:43,556 --> 00:21:48,116 Speaker 1: men do this, but it does not excuse it. And 325 00:21:48,396 --> 00:21:51,436 Speaker 1: people of all genders can react that way when they 326 00:21:51,436 --> 00:21:54,436 Speaker 1: don't get what they want in sex. It's a it's 327 00:21:54,476 --> 00:21:56,956 Speaker 1: a twisted mess. And then everyone else, the trans folks, 328 00:21:56,996 --> 00:21:59,756 Speaker 1: non binary folks, a gender folks, are fed these same 329 00:21:59,876 --> 00:22:02,796 Speaker 1: binary rules yeah, and have to negotiate with their own 330 00:22:02,836 --> 00:22:08,596 Speaker 1: internal beliefs about what these mean for them and get 331 00:22:08,636 --> 00:22:11,716 Speaker 1: clear with their partners about what it means. This is 332 00:22:11,716 --> 00:22:15,396 Speaker 1: a miss. Nobody's free and basically, can we all get 333 00:22:15,396 --> 00:22:20,196 Speaker 1: our collective act together and quit it with the gender nonsense? Right? 334 00:22:20,236 --> 00:22:23,676 Speaker 1: I mean, a real complex conversation about consent has to 335 00:22:23,716 --> 00:22:28,676 Speaker 1: include this conversation about gender roles, about motivations, internal scripts, 336 00:22:30,396 --> 00:22:33,956 Speaker 1: and even within all of those layers, there's that surprising 337 00:22:33,956 --> 00:22:37,236 Speaker 1: analogy you explain to me about consent being like tea. 338 00:22:38,436 --> 00:22:40,636 Speaker 1: It's imperfect, but I like it. So can you explain 339 00:22:40,676 --> 00:22:44,076 Speaker 1: the tea analogy a little bit? Yeah, So this was 340 00:22:44,116 --> 00:22:47,796 Speaker 1: a really viral thing. In twenty fifteen, there was this 341 00:22:47,876 --> 00:22:53,116 Speaker 1: blog from Rockstar Dinosaur Pirate Princess comparing sexual consent to tea, 342 00:22:53,636 --> 00:22:55,636 Speaker 1: and they were like, we can all understand that if 343 00:22:55,636 --> 00:22:57,356 Speaker 1: you offer a person a cup of tea and they 344 00:22:57,396 --> 00:23:00,676 Speaker 1: say no, you do not require them to drink tea. 345 00:23:00,836 --> 00:23:03,196 Speaker 1: And if they say yes, and you spend the time 346 00:23:03,236 --> 00:23:05,116 Speaker 1: boiling the water and brewing the tea and you bring 347 00:23:05,156 --> 00:23:07,996 Speaker 1: it to them and they change their mind, you still 348 00:23:08,036 --> 00:23:10,236 Speaker 1: don't insist that they the tea. Even though you went 349 00:23:10,276 --> 00:23:12,676 Speaker 1: to all that trouble you made it they decided not 350 00:23:12,676 --> 00:23:14,716 Speaker 1: to drink it all well, And because the person has 351 00:23:14,716 --> 00:23:16,276 Speaker 1: come over to your house and had tea with you 352 00:23:16,316 --> 00:23:19,876 Speaker 1: several times before, that does not mean there any obligation 353 00:23:20,236 --> 00:23:23,556 Speaker 1: to come and have tea with you again. And for sure, 354 00:23:23,796 --> 00:23:26,436 Speaker 1: if they like pass out between the time they said 355 00:23:26,516 --> 00:23:28,596 Speaker 1: yes to tea and the time you bring them the tea, 356 00:23:28,836 --> 00:23:31,396 Speaker 1: you don't pour tea down their throat. We can all 357 00:23:31,436 --> 00:23:34,956 Speaker 1: get that, right, yep. One thing I do like about 358 00:23:34,996 --> 00:23:38,676 Speaker 1: the tea analogy is that it helps frame consent as 359 00:23:38,756 --> 00:23:42,556 Speaker 1: an ongoing conversation. I love that, and it also is 360 00:23:42,596 --> 00:23:47,596 Speaker 1: a very easy way to understand that consent to tea 361 00:23:47,756 --> 00:23:51,876 Speaker 1: isn't consent to biscuits. And honestly, in twenty fifteen, that 362 00:23:52,036 --> 00:23:55,756 Speaker 1: was a really important language for a lot of people. 363 00:23:56,756 --> 00:24:00,676 Speaker 1: It went superviral for a reason because it was so straightforward, 364 00:24:02,156 --> 00:24:05,156 Speaker 1: but it did leave out some really important subtleties, Like 365 00:24:05,316 --> 00:24:09,076 Speaker 1: I was thinking, Okay, so suppose person A offers tea. 366 00:24:09,396 --> 00:24:11,956 Speaker 1: It's a person be Yeah, what are all the things 367 00:24:11,956 --> 00:24:14,436 Speaker 1: that might be going through person Bee's head. Are they 368 00:24:14,476 --> 00:24:18,956 Speaker 1: thinking I want this person's company or approval or friendship. 369 00:24:19,716 --> 00:24:22,196 Speaker 1: I want to not be rude. I don't want to 370 00:24:22,236 --> 00:24:25,116 Speaker 1: hurt their feelings. I want to follow the rules of 371 00:24:25,156 --> 00:24:27,876 Speaker 1: this culture. Maybe I want to tell my friends that 372 00:24:27,916 --> 00:24:30,356 Speaker 1: I had tea with this person. You know, I would 373 00:24:30,396 --> 00:24:33,756 Speaker 1: like the sugar in the milk, but I don't want 374 00:24:33,836 --> 00:24:38,876 Speaker 1: any actual tea. So what I want is a world 375 00:24:38,916 --> 00:24:43,036 Speaker 1: where person B feels comfortable and confidence saying no, thank 376 00:24:43,036 --> 00:24:45,836 Speaker 1: you please to the tea. But I would enjoy seeing 377 00:24:45,836 --> 00:24:49,316 Speaker 1: what your tea cups look like and enjoying my own 378 00:24:49,356 --> 00:24:53,156 Speaker 1: cup of sugar and milk. Also, I would really love 379 00:24:53,196 --> 00:24:59,956 Speaker 1: to watch you drink tea. Yeah, okay, we need to 380 00:24:59,996 --> 00:25:02,516 Speaker 1: take a break. I need to run to the little 381 00:25:02,516 --> 00:25:06,276 Speaker 1: podcaster's room. And then when we get back, my girlfriend 382 00:25:06,276 --> 00:25:09,516 Speaker 1: Alex is going to come on the show and we 383 00:25:09,556 --> 00:25:13,876 Speaker 1: are going to get your advice, Emily on navigating this 384 00:25:14,316 --> 00:25:18,796 Speaker 1: enthusiastic maybe within our relationship, and we're going to get 385 00:25:18,916 --> 00:25:34,196 Speaker 1: some training lessons for the consent Olympics. All right, all right, 386 00:25:34,756 --> 00:25:37,716 Speaker 1: we are back and Emily is going to help me 387 00:25:37,876 --> 00:25:43,396 Speaker 1: and my girlfriend Alex navigate this question about should we 388 00:25:43,516 --> 00:25:48,596 Speaker 1: go to this orgy? Hi, Alex, not your real name, girlfriend. Hello, 389 00:25:49,716 --> 00:25:52,276 Speaker 1: thanks for coming and for calling in from the car 390 00:25:52,356 --> 00:25:55,956 Speaker 1: instead of taking your lunch break. You're the best. So 391 00:25:56,276 --> 00:26:00,116 Speaker 1: you want to introduce yourself? Yeah, hi everybody. I'm glad 392 00:26:00,156 --> 00:26:03,676 Speaker 1: to be here, glad to have your health. Emily answering 393 00:26:03,716 --> 00:26:06,956 Speaker 1: this question, my name is Alex. I'm non binary. I 394 00:26:07,036 --> 00:26:09,036 Speaker 1: use the then pronounced. But one of the great thing 395 00:26:09,356 --> 00:26:11,716 Speaker 1: about being queer and non binaries that you get to 396 00:26:11,756 --> 00:26:13,796 Speaker 1: choose the language that works for you, which is why 397 00:26:13,996 --> 00:26:16,716 Speaker 1: you know, Mo has been using the words like girlfriend 398 00:26:17,436 --> 00:26:20,796 Speaker 1: and like lesbian for our relationship. Those words are comfy 399 00:26:20,836 --> 00:26:25,796 Speaker 1: for us, so we use gendered language when it feels comfortable. Yeah, yeah, 400 00:26:25,836 --> 00:26:28,196 Speaker 1: that's me. I'm so excited. Thank you for helping us, Emily, 401 00:26:28,476 --> 00:26:31,756 Speaker 1: I'm so excited too. All right, let's do it. Let's 402 00:26:31,756 --> 00:26:34,756 Speaker 1: get right into it then, So Alex, can you start 403 00:26:34,756 --> 00:26:39,196 Speaker 1: by explaining how you're feeling about potentially attending this orgy 404 00:26:39,436 --> 00:26:43,276 Speaker 1: with me and any context, any set up you feel 405 00:26:43,316 --> 00:26:46,876 Speaker 1: you need to do. Okay, So, Mo and I have 406 00:26:46,956 --> 00:26:49,996 Speaker 1: been in a relationship for almost three years, and that's 407 00:26:50,036 --> 00:26:53,356 Speaker 1: been a monogamous relationship. We have not opened that relationship 408 00:26:53,356 --> 00:26:57,036 Speaker 1: and we've never had anyone else involved sexually in our relationship. 409 00:26:57,556 --> 00:27:00,116 Speaker 1: And then we have some really fun friends in our 410 00:27:00,596 --> 00:27:03,636 Speaker 1: lesbian friend group that have invited us to an orgy 411 00:27:04,436 --> 00:27:11,516 Speaker 1: later this month, and it seems like a really fun opportunity. Intellectually, wait, 412 00:27:11,676 --> 00:27:14,836 Speaker 1: really quick, what do you mean by you like the idea? Intellectually? 413 00:27:15,836 --> 00:27:18,516 Speaker 1: What does that mean? I like the idea of going 414 00:27:18,756 --> 00:27:20,476 Speaker 1: because how many times in my life am I going 415 00:27:20,556 --> 00:27:23,676 Speaker 1: to be invited to something like this? But when I 416 00:27:23,716 --> 00:27:26,996 Speaker 1: really think about it, I get really nervous because there's 417 00:27:26,996 --> 00:27:30,116 Speaker 1: so many unknown factors and I just don't know how 418 00:27:30,116 --> 00:27:32,916 Speaker 1: I'm going to feel when we're there, and I'm kind 419 00:27:32,916 --> 00:27:37,396 Speaker 1: of scared that unexpected feelings will come up, but most 420 00:27:37,436 --> 00:27:41,276 Speaker 1: seems a little bit more confident. I mean, yes, I 421 00:27:41,316 --> 00:27:45,916 Speaker 1: am an enthusiastic Yes, I'm excited to potentially go. But again, like, 422 00:27:46,356 --> 00:27:49,156 Speaker 1: this is a decision that we have to make together. 423 00:27:49,476 --> 00:27:52,916 Speaker 1: The only situation where we will go is one where 424 00:27:52,916 --> 00:27:56,556 Speaker 1: we are going together, and I want to make sure 425 00:27:56,676 --> 00:28:01,476 Speaker 1: that when you say maybe, like we really explore what 426 00:28:01,516 --> 00:28:05,676 Speaker 1: that actually means. So, first of all, do you have 427 00:28:05,716 --> 00:28:08,396 Speaker 1: a sense that Alex, it's okay for you to say 428 00:28:08,476 --> 00:28:12,676 Speaker 1: no to something when you feel ambivalent. That's a tricky question. Um. 429 00:28:13,436 --> 00:28:17,676 Speaker 1: I sometimes feel like I'm not sure if I'm saying 430 00:28:17,756 --> 00:28:20,956 Speaker 1: yes because it's you know, with within the context of 431 00:28:20,996 --> 00:28:24,076 Speaker 1: sex or not if I was or request made of me. 432 00:28:24,516 --> 00:28:27,116 Speaker 1: Sometimes I don't know if I'm saying yes because it's 433 00:28:27,116 --> 00:28:28,996 Speaker 1: truly something I want to do, or if it's something 434 00:28:29,036 --> 00:28:32,156 Speaker 1: I just feel obligated to do. You know. Being raised 435 00:28:32,436 --> 00:28:35,876 Speaker 1: in the South, um, with the what is the language 436 00:28:35,876 --> 00:28:39,956 Speaker 1: that you use, the female no, the I'm a girl package, 437 00:28:39,996 --> 00:28:42,276 Speaker 1: it's a girl packet. You were raised to be a lady. 438 00:28:42,396 --> 00:28:46,636 Speaker 1: It sounds like exactly, to be very polite and to 439 00:28:47,156 --> 00:28:52,236 Speaker 1: always accept the tea when it's offered. To you, um, etc. Yeah. 440 00:28:52,236 --> 00:28:55,116 Speaker 1: So I have a hard time, you know, deciphering what 441 00:28:55,716 --> 00:28:59,236 Speaker 1: I really want and what is expected of me. H, 442 00:28:59,636 --> 00:29:02,636 Speaker 1: that's so important and no one ever talks about it. 443 00:29:02,676 --> 00:29:05,636 Speaker 1: I'm so excited we're going there. Yeah. This is one 444 00:29:05,676 --> 00:29:07,996 Speaker 1: of the big reasons we wanted to talk to you, Emily, 445 00:29:08,116 --> 00:29:12,836 Speaker 1: is because we both identify as people pleasers. So when 446 00:29:12,876 --> 00:29:15,636 Speaker 1: Alex and I have been talking together about if we 447 00:29:15,676 --> 00:29:19,836 Speaker 1: want to go to this orgy, Alex, one thing I 448 00:29:19,876 --> 00:29:23,076 Speaker 1: have heard you say again and again is like that 449 00:29:23,156 --> 00:29:27,476 Speaker 1: you're worried it'll be rude if you go and you 450 00:29:27,556 --> 00:29:31,116 Speaker 1: say no to everyone except for me. Yeah, I mean, okay, 451 00:29:31,156 --> 00:29:34,116 Speaker 1: I've never done anything like this before. So one of 452 00:29:34,156 --> 00:29:39,236 Speaker 1: my questions, I guess, is like, is my attendance at 453 00:29:39,276 --> 00:29:44,036 Speaker 1: this party, this orgy implying consent to have sex with 454 00:29:44,236 --> 00:29:50,116 Speaker 1: anyone else who is there. I know, intellectually no, like 455 00:29:50,356 --> 00:29:52,076 Speaker 1: I should. I will be able to say no. I 456 00:29:52,156 --> 00:29:54,796 Speaker 1: have autonomy if somebody approaches me and I'm not interestood, 457 00:29:54,796 --> 00:29:56,676 Speaker 1: I can say like no, thank you. But like, there's 458 00:29:56,716 --> 00:29:58,716 Speaker 1: something in me that I just don't know what the 459 00:29:59,276 --> 00:30:03,236 Speaker 1: social rules of this space are. So that's one thing 460 00:30:03,276 --> 00:30:07,396 Speaker 1: that is scaring me is there a space where I 461 00:30:07,436 --> 00:30:09,876 Speaker 1: could just like Mo and I I could do our 462 00:30:09,876 --> 00:30:14,556 Speaker 1: own thing in one area of the room and then 463 00:30:14,796 --> 00:30:17,396 Speaker 1: kind of just like be witnessed and witness what else 464 00:30:17,476 --> 00:30:20,516 Speaker 1: is going on? Is that considered rude? Or are we 465 00:30:20,676 --> 00:30:22,996 Speaker 1: are we supposed to participate? Is everyone's supposed to have 466 00:30:23,076 --> 00:30:28,556 Speaker 1: equal participation? I guess I'm nervous about, like, because it 467 00:30:28,676 --> 00:30:31,196 Speaker 1: is a friend's house, a friend's party, and I'm used 468 00:30:31,236 --> 00:30:35,836 Speaker 1: to being a good house guest. You know what the 469 00:30:35,876 --> 00:30:38,756 Speaker 1: expectations are there. So really what you would like is 470 00:30:38,836 --> 00:30:45,556 Speaker 1: an Emily Post manual of etiquette that I'm pretty sure 471 00:30:45,556 --> 00:30:49,036 Speaker 1: Emily Posts does not have a chapter on orgy etiquette, 472 00:30:49,996 --> 00:30:53,636 Speaker 1: but the Emily Nagowski Guide is probably as close as 473 00:30:53,636 --> 00:30:56,836 Speaker 1: we're ever gonna get. Yeah, I loved etiquete manuals when 474 00:30:56,836 --> 00:30:59,716 Speaker 1: I was a kid. I'm super into that. And at 475 00:30:59,756 --> 00:31:02,436 Speaker 1: the same time, like, you would never go to a 476 00:31:02,516 --> 00:31:07,356 Speaker 1: party and have your attendance imply consent for any other 477 00:31:07,436 --> 00:31:09,396 Speaker 1: kind of behavior, Like if you come to this you 478 00:31:09,436 --> 00:31:12,236 Speaker 1: are definitely going to have at least four drinks, or 479 00:31:12,276 --> 00:31:13,996 Speaker 1: if you come to this party, you must eat the 480 00:31:14,076 --> 00:31:18,956 Speaker 1: shrim right. If you are really worried, ask the host 481 00:31:19,076 --> 00:31:22,076 Speaker 1: about the ground rules. We can do that. If there 482 00:31:22,116 --> 00:31:24,476 Speaker 1: are no ground rules, I'm going to say, don't go, 483 00:31:24,716 --> 00:31:28,316 Speaker 1: but I bet there are. And then also, when you 484 00:31:28,356 --> 00:31:30,636 Speaker 1: know what the ground rules are, talk about it between you, 485 00:31:32,196 --> 00:31:35,196 Speaker 1: make plans for the things that you expect might be 486 00:31:35,316 --> 00:31:39,676 Speaker 1: most comfortable or least comfortable. I would also say for 487 00:31:39,756 --> 00:31:41,916 Speaker 1: the two of you to have a plan for how 488 00:31:41,956 --> 00:31:47,916 Speaker 1: to stay attuned to Alex's level of ambivalence, so while 489 00:31:47,956 --> 00:31:52,276 Speaker 1: you're there, their level of ambivalence is going to move 490 00:31:52,356 --> 00:31:56,756 Speaker 1: around their level of comfort. And make a plan if 491 00:31:56,836 --> 00:31:59,796 Speaker 1: you can feel sort of an escalation of the jealousy 492 00:31:59,956 --> 00:32:01,996 Speaker 1: or the freak out or any of the other things, 493 00:32:02,076 --> 00:32:06,836 Speaker 1: like if surprising feelings come up, which probably it will 494 00:32:06,876 --> 00:32:11,116 Speaker 1: be surprising. And the great thing about a strong relationship, 495 00:32:11,196 --> 00:32:14,276 Speaker 1: mo is you're one hundred percent committed to prioritizing your 496 00:32:14,276 --> 00:32:18,276 Speaker 1: partners know above anything, right, Absolutely, Yes, of course, it 497 00:32:18,316 --> 00:32:20,836 Speaker 1: doesn't matter how into something you are. If your partner 498 00:32:20,836 --> 00:32:23,236 Speaker 1: comes over and says this is a no for me, 499 00:32:23,876 --> 00:32:27,476 Speaker 1: then it's a no for us, right you stop? Yeah, absolutely, 500 00:32:28,196 --> 00:32:30,916 Speaker 1: And I think you can do some test runs or 501 00:32:30,916 --> 00:32:35,036 Speaker 1: at least brainstormy. You can talk through the kinds of 502 00:32:35,076 --> 00:32:40,596 Speaker 1: things you might experience so MO as the less ambivalent 503 00:32:40,636 --> 00:32:43,476 Speaker 1: partner can say, Okay, so let's imagine someone invites me 504 00:32:43,556 --> 00:32:46,276 Speaker 1: to do something and have you watched What are some 505 00:32:46,356 --> 00:32:48,876 Speaker 1: things that I might do and how might you feel 506 00:32:48,876 --> 00:32:51,756 Speaker 1: about it? Or you could swap it around. Suppose someone 507 00:32:51,796 --> 00:32:54,796 Speaker 1: invites you, Alex to do something with me watching, or 508 00:32:54,796 --> 00:32:57,956 Speaker 1: suppose there's someone I'd like to connect with with you 509 00:32:58,716 --> 00:33:02,876 Speaker 1: talk through all those limits in an advance and think 510 00:33:02,956 --> 00:33:07,196 Speaker 1: through what those situations might feel and be like, yeah, 511 00:33:07,356 --> 00:33:11,076 Speaker 1: just sort of mix and match scenarios and then talk 512 00:33:11,156 --> 00:33:17,036 Speaker 1: through how we might react to them together in the moment. Yeah. Yeah. 513 00:33:17,116 --> 00:33:20,916 Speaker 1: For some reason, it feels like okay, touching body touching 514 00:33:21,036 --> 00:33:24,796 Speaker 1: feels okay, but like kissing someone else or like seeing 515 00:33:24,876 --> 00:33:29,196 Speaker 1: mo because someone else feels really intimate, Like yeah, I mean, 516 00:33:29,596 --> 00:33:34,156 Speaker 1: I'm just I'm pro titty touching, pro grinding, all of that. 517 00:33:34,396 --> 00:33:36,636 Speaker 1: Like it feels like, okay, you know, you're just dancing 518 00:33:36,636 --> 00:33:38,796 Speaker 1: in a club, like there's just a lot of people around. 519 00:33:38,876 --> 00:33:42,476 Speaker 1: Everybody's kind of bumping into each other. That feels fine, 520 00:33:42,516 --> 00:33:45,036 Speaker 1: and there feels like a sense of anonymity around that 521 00:33:45,116 --> 00:33:48,916 Speaker 1: even if I know those people but I don't know. 522 00:33:49,036 --> 00:33:54,516 Speaker 1: Kissing just feels so intimate to me and uniquely romantic. Okay, 523 00:33:54,636 --> 00:33:57,596 Speaker 1: see this is very good because we have never gotten 524 00:33:57,636 --> 00:34:01,876 Speaker 1: this specific before in the conversation, Like I'm totally down 525 00:34:01,916 --> 00:34:05,036 Speaker 1: to titty touch and grind, but not kiss other people. 526 00:34:05,116 --> 00:34:08,756 Speaker 1: It sounds amazing, sounds hot. Yeah, but then how do 527 00:34:08,836 --> 00:34:10,996 Speaker 1: we explain that to someone? So like if we were 528 00:34:11,036 --> 00:34:13,556 Speaker 1: to work through a scenario now, like, okay, we're have it, 529 00:34:13,636 --> 00:34:15,876 Speaker 1: we're doing our own thing, We're into each other at 530 00:34:15,916 --> 00:34:19,436 Speaker 1: this party, and someone comes up to us and says, oh, 531 00:34:19,516 --> 00:34:24,596 Speaker 1: can can I join you? Guys? How do we say, like, well, yes, 532 00:34:24,716 --> 00:34:26,076 Speaker 1: you can touch me in this way, in this way, 533 00:34:26,076 --> 00:34:28,516 Speaker 1: in this way, but not don't kiss me and don't 534 00:34:28,556 --> 00:34:31,476 Speaker 1: kiss her, but where you can watch us kiss. You know. 535 00:34:31,516 --> 00:34:33,756 Speaker 1: It's like feels like a lot of a lot of nose, 536 00:34:34,076 --> 00:34:37,596 Speaker 1: a lot of information. Yeah, that's why you know these 537 00:34:37,596 --> 00:34:40,876 Speaker 1: are advanced skills, right, because the question I'm asked all 538 00:34:40,916 --> 00:34:43,116 Speaker 1: the time is how do I ask my partner for 539 00:34:43,836 --> 00:34:45,916 Speaker 1: And this is the same, like how do I communicate 540 00:34:45,956 --> 00:34:49,396 Speaker 1: to somebody else at this party what our limits are? 541 00:34:49,436 --> 00:34:52,076 Speaker 1: And of course the answer is you just say, yeah, 542 00:34:52,076 --> 00:34:54,436 Speaker 1: our limits is we're only kissing each other on the mouth, 543 00:34:54,476 --> 00:34:57,516 Speaker 1: and nobody else we're into titty touching and to grinding. 544 00:34:58,076 --> 00:35:01,396 Speaker 1: If that sounds good for you, what are your rules? Right? 545 00:35:01,836 --> 00:35:04,716 Speaker 1: So the real question is not how do we do it? 546 00:35:04,796 --> 00:35:06,356 Speaker 1: Because how you do it is you just say it. 547 00:35:07,036 --> 00:35:10,156 Speaker 1: The question is what is it that's stopping you? What 548 00:35:10,316 --> 00:35:13,596 Speaker 1: is stopping you from saying? Right now, we are not 549 00:35:13,676 --> 00:35:16,276 Speaker 1: having tea, We are just having milk and sugar, and 550 00:35:16,316 --> 00:35:20,396 Speaker 1: we are collecting teacups. M What would have to happen 551 00:35:20,436 --> 00:35:22,756 Speaker 1: for you to feel comfortable speaking a boundary like that 552 00:35:22,836 --> 00:35:26,716 Speaker 1: out loud? That's a great question. Yeah, what would need 553 00:35:26,796 --> 00:35:29,076 Speaker 1: to happen? I think it would be helpful for us 554 00:35:29,076 --> 00:35:32,836 Speaker 1: to work through hypothetical scenarios and also just to have 555 00:35:32,996 --> 00:35:38,076 Speaker 1: a like an escape route. Heck, yes, you know, if 556 00:35:38,516 --> 00:35:40,876 Speaker 1: one of us is ready to go, we go. There's 557 00:35:40,916 --> 00:35:44,076 Speaker 1: no like negotiating like no, please, I really want to 558 00:35:44,636 --> 00:35:47,356 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know. Is that is that wrong? 559 00:35:47,436 --> 00:35:51,476 Speaker 1: To say no? No? That's great. It's called a hard no. 560 00:35:51,956 --> 00:35:56,356 Speaker 1: Hard limits. There are soft limits, soft boundaries where you're 561 00:35:57,036 --> 00:36:00,996 Speaker 1: willing and able to stretch, to try and explore, and 562 00:36:01,236 --> 00:36:03,516 Speaker 1: you might hit a hard note. And some things are 563 00:36:03,556 --> 00:36:05,756 Speaker 1: just like a hard no. Right now, I know that 564 00:36:05,796 --> 00:36:11,076 Speaker 1: I'm done that's it's part of the language of consent, 565 00:36:11,276 --> 00:36:14,316 Speaker 1: particularly in the BDSM community, which is another group that 566 00:36:14,396 --> 00:36:18,996 Speaker 1: has more comprehensive conversations about consent than most folks ever do. 567 00:36:19,396 --> 00:36:21,956 Speaker 1: And let me I feel as a public health person, 568 00:36:21,996 --> 00:36:24,356 Speaker 1: I feel an obligation to say that part of your 569 00:36:24,356 --> 00:36:28,636 Speaker 1: conversation can involve safety levels like risk of infection increases 570 00:36:28,636 --> 00:36:33,076 Speaker 1: with different bodily fluids and touching different skin areas. So 571 00:36:33,396 --> 00:36:36,196 Speaker 1: think about what fluids you're willing to share. Is sharing 572 00:36:36,236 --> 00:36:42,516 Speaker 1: saliva with someone else okay? Is saliva meeting genitals secretions okay? 573 00:36:42,836 --> 00:36:47,076 Speaker 1: Is hands on genital secretions okay? Or do you always 574 00:36:47,076 --> 00:36:49,836 Speaker 1: want to have gloves on? How about genital to mouth? 575 00:36:50,956 --> 00:36:54,916 Speaker 1: How about blood genital genital rubbing? Or what kind of 576 00:36:54,956 --> 00:36:57,876 Speaker 1: barriers are acceptable to you? Or dam's an acceptable barrier? 577 00:36:58,556 --> 00:37:02,796 Speaker 1: These are just the basic physical safety questions, but they 578 00:37:02,796 --> 00:37:07,436 Speaker 1: can crack open other conversations about the emotional safety and 579 00:37:08,036 --> 00:37:12,356 Speaker 1: how comfortable do you feel watching your partner with other people? 580 00:37:12,596 --> 00:37:16,556 Speaker 1: Which behaviors are you okay watching? Which behaviors might you 581 00:37:16,596 --> 00:37:20,556 Speaker 1: be okay doing while others are watching. Some people are 582 00:37:20,556 --> 00:37:23,796 Speaker 1: really into exhibitionism, some people are really into voyeurism, and 583 00:37:23,916 --> 00:37:28,876 Speaker 1: others are not so much. So one good starting place 584 00:37:28,956 --> 00:37:33,356 Speaker 1: question is does Alex feel threatened if their partner is 585 00:37:33,476 --> 00:37:40,956 Speaker 1: enthusiastically watching another couple makeout. M Yeah, I love this 586 00:37:41,036 --> 00:37:45,196 Speaker 1: thought experiment, and like, intellectually, obviously, I love Mo. I 587 00:37:45,236 --> 00:37:49,796 Speaker 1: trust MO. I feel very secure in our connection and relationship. 588 00:37:49,836 --> 00:37:51,916 Speaker 1: I do not feel like, you know, if we go 589 00:37:51,956 --> 00:37:53,756 Speaker 1: to this orgy, MO is going to run off with 590 00:37:53,796 --> 00:37:56,676 Speaker 1: someone else and I'll never see her again, you know, Yeah, 591 00:37:56,756 --> 00:38:00,476 Speaker 1: your relationship is not at stake. Yes, exactly, But the 592 00:38:00,556 --> 00:38:05,036 Speaker 1: reality is like, i feel like these fantasy and hypotheticals 593 00:38:05,076 --> 00:38:08,356 Speaker 1: aren't the same as the real thing. And I'm like, 594 00:38:08,596 --> 00:38:11,196 Speaker 1: I'm just notna know how I feel until I'm there, 595 00:38:11,236 --> 00:38:14,436 Speaker 1: until you get there in the moment, and so yeah exactly, 596 00:38:14,756 --> 00:38:16,716 Speaker 1: And will your body tell you how you feel in 597 00:38:16,756 --> 00:38:20,516 Speaker 1: the moment? Yes? How much of a delay is there 598 00:38:20,556 --> 00:38:23,356 Speaker 1: between when you feel something and when you're totally aware 599 00:38:23,436 --> 00:38:25,996 Speaker 1: that you feel it and can articulate it. Oh, I'm 600 00:38:26,156 --> 00:38:30,756 Speaker 1: very sensitive. I can. I get emotional very quickly. Actually, 601 00:38:30,916 --> 00:38:33,156 Speaker 1: I'm afraid my biggest fear is that I'll cry at 602 00:38:33,156 --> 00:38:37,676 Speaker 1: this orgy. Well if you cry, so what we deal 603 00:38:37,716 --> 00:38:40,836 Speaker 1: with crying all the time? Post sex, it's like it happens. 604 00:38:41,236 --> 00:38:42,596 Speaker 1: I don't want to be a bone or killer for 605 00:38:42,596 --> 00:38:46,236 Speaker 1: everybody else one. There are some people who are super 606 00:38:46,276 --> 00:38:50,716 Speaker 1: into crying in like a good way too. Crying after 607 00:38:50,876 --> 00:38:54,156 Speaker 1: orgasm is definitely a thing that can happen. So you know, 608 00:38:54,876 --> 00:38:58,876 Speaker 1: not all crying is indicative of just sheer discomfort. But 609 00:38:59,036 --> 00:39:01,356 Speaker 1: I think the most important thing here is that you 610 00:39:01,676 --> 00:39:04,236 Speaker 1: have that strong connection with your body. So if you 611 00:39:04,316 --> 00:39:08,036 Speaker 1: just sustain that welcoming of what your body is saying 612 00:39:08,236 --> 00:39:11,956 Speaker 1: without worrying about what it should be saying, which it 613 00:39:11,996 --> 00:39:14,476 Speaker 1: sounds like, is like the conflict for you is on 614 00:39:14,516 --> 00:39:16,596 Speaker 1: the one hand, this is how I feel and on 615 00:39:16,636 --> 00:39:19,036 Speaker 1: the other hand, I feel like I'm supposed to be 616 00:39:19,196 --> 00:39:24,716 Speaker 1: doing this other thing. Have that ambivalence and keep communicating 617 00:39:24,716 --> 00:39:27,076 Speaker 1: about it. You are two people. You are having two 618 00:39:27,156 --> 00:39:31,996 Speaker 1: different experiences. Both of them are valid and legitimate and important, 619 00:39:32,516 --> 00:39:34,956 Speaker 1: and both of them are going to be ambivalent. Right 620 00:39:34,996 --> 00:39:37,596 Speaker 1: and again, like, I'm not one hundred percent certain that 621 00:39:37,716 --> 00:39:41,196 Speaker 1: I will be an enthusiastic yess throughout this whole experience. 622 00:39:41,796 --> 00:39:44,796 Speaker 1: I'm an enthusiastic yess right now about the idea of it. 623 00:39:45,316 --> 00:39:47,156 Speaker 1: Like if we go, we could get there and all 624 00:39:47,196 --> 00:39:49,956 Speaker 1: of a sudden, I'm an enthusiastic maybe, or I'm a 625 00:39:50,036 --> 00:39:53,076 Speaker 1: maybe maybe or a no, and you're the yess Like, 626 00:39:53,156 --> 00:39:57,436 Speaker 1: I think that's also very much a possibility. So, Emily, 627 00:39:57,636 --> 00:39:59,996 Speaker 1: do you have any final pieces of advice for us, 628 00:39:59,996 --> 00:40:02,956 Speaker 1: Like we're going to be talking about this tonight, maybe tomorrow, 629 00:40:03,236 --> 00:40:05,076 Speaker 1: we're going to be making the decision in the next 630 00:40:05,116 --> 00:40:09,756 Speaker 1: few days. Do you have any parting pieces of advice 631 00:40:09,876 --> 00:40:15,476 Speaker 1: about separating our decisions from each other's desires or anyone 632 00:40:15,516 --> 00:40:22,396 Speaker 1: else's desires. That experience of what you want feeling clouded 633 00:40:22,556 --> 00:40:27,756 Speaker 1: by what other people want is so, so so important, 634 00:40:28,116 --> 00:40:34,796 Speaker 1: and honestly, it's something you only learn to navigate by practicing. 635 00:40:36,676 --> 00:40:39,556 Speaker 1: And the context where you can practice safely is when 636 00:40:39,556 --> 00:40:43,236 Speaker 1: there are no unwanted consequences. Right, the relationship is not 637 00:40:43,276 --> 00:40:45,396 Speaker 1: at stake, No one's going to judge you. Everything will 638 00:40:45,396 --> 00:40:48,876 Speaker 1: be fine no matter what happens. You can practice and 639 00:40:48,956 --> 00:40:52,356 Speaker 1: make mistakes because there's nothing at risk. There's nothing at stake, 640 00:40:52,876 --> 00:40:56,996 Speaker 1: And if you decide to go, which you may just 641 00:40:57,036 --> 00:41:00,116 Speaker 1: decide not to go, and that's fine too, But if 642 00:41:00,156 --> 00:41:02,836 Speaker 1: you decide to go, make a plan for aftercare, for 643 00:41:02,996 --> 00:41:07,796 Speaker 1: processing the residual feelings in the hours or maybe days 644 00:41:07,916 --> 00:41:11,036 Speaker 1: or even weeks after word. Because this is a first 645 00:41:11,076 --> 00:41:15,276 Speaker 1: time experience for both of you. My general recommendation for 646 00:41:15,356 --> 00:41:21,676 Speaker 1: any first time experience is to go really slowly in 647 00:41:21,756 --> 00:41:26,196 Speaker 1: your decision making, and it's better to look back on 648 00:41:26,236 --> 00:41:29,036 Speaker 1: it and wish you had tried something more than to 649 00:41:29,156 --> 00:41:33,436 Speaker 1: regret that you tried too much. Yeah, could I ask 650 00:41:33,596 --> 00:41:37,276 Speaker 1: what would you say? Is one important thing? Not like 651 00:41:37,316 --> 00:41:39,796 Speaker 1: the only pertant thing or the most important thing, but 652 00:41:39,916 --> 00:41:43,596 Speaker 1: just an important What's an important thing that you're taking 653 00:41:43,636 --> 00:41:47,076 Speaker 1: away from this conversation for me to realize. I do 654 00:41:47,156 --> 00:41:50,316 Speaker 1: not feel insecure about my relationship to Mo or my 655 00:41:50,356 --> 00:41:53,796 Speaker 1: connection with MO, and I do not fear that MO 656 00:41:53,996 --> 00:41:57,356 Speaker 1: is going to run off with someone else. So I 657 00:41:57,396 --> 00:42:00,156 Speaker 1: think that if I can get to a place with 658 00:42:00,196 --> 00:42:07,316 Speaker 1: myself where I feel excited about going and feel, you know, 659 00:42:08,236 --> 00:42:09,996 Speaker 1: like it could be a really on experience, which I 660 00:42:10,036 --> 00:42:12,876 Speaker 1: do right now, I think that's the only thing standing 661 00:42:12,876 --> 00:42:16,596 Speaker 1: in my way. That's great. Thank you. Yeah, of course, 662 00:42:16,916 --> 00:42:18,556 Speaker 1: And you do not have to go. You are still 663 00:42:18,636 --> 00:42:22,076 Speaker 1: under no obligation. Oh, I know, I know I could 664 00:42:22,156 --> 00:42:26,236 Speaker 1: change my mind in five minutes before I Yeah, of course, Yep. 665 00:42:26,716 --> 00:42:30,476 Speaker 1: I feel like whereas before I felt kind of like 666 00:42:31,676 --> 00:42:36,596 Speaker 1: shameful and embarrassed to you know, think about it at all, 667 00:42:36,636 --> 00:42:38,596 Speaker 1: And now I'm feeling a lot more confident and like 668 00:42:38,836 --> 00:42:42,796 Speaker 1: dare I say, excited about the opportunity to go, and 669 00:42:42,876 --> 00:42:47,516 Speaker 1: like I think it could be really fun. All right, 670 00:42:47,596 --> 00:42:51,076 Speaker 1: we need to take a break, and Alex, I know 671 00:42:51,196 --> 00:42:53,036 Speaker 1: you need to get back to work because you have 672 00:42:53,156 --> 00:42:57,156 Speaker 1: been talking to us during your lunch break. So I 673 00:42:57,356 --> 00:43:00,796 Speaker 1: just thank you for taking the time and being so 674 00:43:00,876 --> 00:43:03,876 Speaker 1: honest and like willing to talk about this on the show. 675 00:43:04,676 --> 00:43:06,996 Speaker 1: Of course, thank you so much for having me and Emily. 676 00:43:07,036 --> 00:43:09,436 Speaker 1: This has been so helpful. I feel a lot more 677 00:43:09,476 --> 00:43:13,236 Speaker 1: competent about this whole conversation and the potential of going, 678 00:43:13,676 --> 00:43:16,316 Speaker 1: So thank you. I'm really excited. I have a lot 679 00:43:16,356 --> 00:43:19,956 Speaker 1: to think about. That's so great. It's been really delightful 680 00:43:19,956 --> 00:43:24,796 Speaker 1: meeting you. Thanks Alex. When we get back, we are 681 00:43:24,796 --> 00:43:27,196 Speaker 1: going to highlight some of the major takeaways from our 682 00:43:27,276 --> 00:43:30,796 Speaker 1: conversation because there are a lot, so we'll be back 683 00:43:30,796 --> 00:43:46,716 Speaker 1: in a minute. All right, Emily, So I need a 684 00:43:46,796 --> 00:43:52,556 Speaker 1: TLDR and some practical advice for my consent Olympics. Absolutely, 685 00:43:52,676 --> 00:43:55,996 Speaker 1: and it has been not just basics for beginners, but 686 00:43:56,116 --> 00:44:04,676 Speaker 1: advanced stuff, so to recap, enthusiastic consent is the gold standard, absolutely, 687 00:44:05,196 --> 00:44:09,836 Speaker 1: and also open consent or willing consent is normal. In fact, 688 00:44:09,916 --> 00:44:13,676 Speaker 1: my definition of normal sex is when everyone is glad 689 00:44:13,716 --> 00:44:19,116 Speaker 1: to be there and free to leave with no unwanted consequences, 690 00:44:19,636 --> 00:44:23,676 Speaker 1: plus no one's experiencing unwanted pain. It sounds really simple, 691 00:44:24,276 --> 00:44:27,316 Speaker 1: but that doesn't always mean it's easy, especially in the 692 00:44:27,356 --> 00:44:31,516 Speaker 1: context of rigid binary rules, which brings me to point 693 00:44:31,596 --> 00:44:34,876 Speaker 1: number two. On the day you're born, people look at 694 00:44:34,916 --> 00:44:37,876 Speaker 1: your genitals and they assign you a list of rules 695 00:44:37,876 --> 00:44:40,676 Speaker 1: and regulations about who you're supposed to be as a 696 00:44:40,716 --> 00:44:43,636 Speaker 1: sexual person. If you have the it's a girl package, 697 00:44:43,996 --> 00:44:48,156 Speaker 1: you're taught to be pretty happy, called generous, and unfailingly 698 00:44:48,156 --> 00:44:51,236 Speaker 1: attentive to the needs of others. And if you get 699 00:44:51,276 --> 00:44:54,436 Speaker 1: the it's a boy package, you're supposed to be confident 700 00:44:54,596 --> 00:44:59,196 Speaker 1: and constantly horny and totally incurious because you already know 701 00:44:59,316 --> 00:45:02,996 Speaker 1: everything there is to know. It is a really toxic combination, 702 00:45:03,876 --> 00:45:09,076 Speaker 1: and your access to enthusiastic consent will crack wide open 703 00:45:09,676 --> 00:45:13,716 Speaker 1: when you begin eliminating the gender binary from your understanding 704 00:45:13,716 --> 00:45:18,996 Speaker 1: of yourself as a sexual person. Three ambivalence is normal 705 00:45:19,316 --> 00:45:23,556 Speaker 1: for two reasons. First, we all have a sexual accelerator 706 00:45:23,596 --> 00:45:27,236 Speaker 1: that responds to sex related stimuli, and we all also 707 00:45:27,356 --> 00:45:31,836 Speaker 1: have breaks that respond to all potential threats. That's the 708 00:45:31,876 --> 00:45:35,596 Speaker 1: first reason why ambivalence is normal. But also second, we 709 00:45:35,636 --> 00:45:39,116 Speaker 1: live in a world that fills our heads with mutually 710 00:45:39,196 --> 00:45:44,236 Speaker 1: contradictory and often shaming messages about sex, and we bring 711 00:45:44,356 --> 00:45:48,156 Speaker 1: those with us into a sexual context. So it's like 712 00:45:48,196 --> 00:45:52,156 Speaker 1: our breaks are on kind of all the time, and 713 00:45:52,236 --> 00:45:56,996 Speaker 1: so we bring ambivalence with us into a sexual context. Fourth, 714 00:45:57,396 --> 00:45:59,876 Speaker 1: the solution for this For some people, it might be 715 00:45:59,916 --> 00:46:03,356 Speaker 1: to say no to anything about which they feel ambivalent, 716 00:46:03,396 --> 00:46:07,356 Speaker 1: and that's great. But another solution is to say yes 717 00:46:07,396 --> 00:46:10,596 Speaker 1: to the things that you want and to communicate your 718 00:46:10,636 --> 00:46:14,676 Speaker 1: ambivalence to your partner. Work out cooperative strategies so that 719 00:46:14,796 --> 00:46:18,156 Speaker 1: you can explore at the edges of what feels yes 720 00:46:18,596 --> 00:46:22,756 Speaker 1: while always having a door open for a no. And 721 00:46:22,916 --> 00:46:26,156 Speaker 1: one more tip, a little bonus practice staying over your 722 00:46:26,156 --> 00:46:29,996 Speaker 1: own emotional center of gravity. The ambivalence may feel like 723 00:46:29,996 --> 00:46:33,236 Speaker 1: you're oscillating around a center right, swinging to the no 724 00:46:33,436 --> 00:46:35,956 Speaker 1: and swinging to the yes, and that's normal as long 725 00:46:35,996 --> 00:46:38,956 Speaker 1: as it doesn't knock you down. If you find yourself 726 00:46:39,036 --> 00:46:42,436 Speaker 1: leaning on your partner to guide you instead of relying 727 00:46:42,476 --> 00:46:45,996 Speaker 1: on your own internal sense of center, that's a sign 728 00:46:46,036 --> 00:46:49,116 Speaker 1: that you're out of balance. Take a break then and 729 00:46:49,276 --> 00:46:57,676 Speaker 1: start again when you're feeling more centered. If this episode 730 00:46:57,676 --> 00:46:59,516 Speaker 1: has brought up a lot of feelings for you, when 731 00:46:59,516 --> 00:47:01,716 Speaker 1: you want to process them with someone, or just read 732 00:47:01,756 --> 00:47:05,276 Speaker 1: more about consent, check out the resources in our show notes. 733 00:47:07,876 --> 00:47:11,556 Speaker 1: Next week, we are going to be answering maybe my 734 00:47:11,716 --> 00:47:15,036 Speaker 1: favorite question that we've ever gotten on the Come as 735 00:47:15,036 --> 00:47:18,196 Speaker 1: you Are hotline? Are you supposed to have sticks? When 736 00:47:18,236 --> 00:47:20,876 Speaker 1: you get that old quote? I'm saying if you want it, 737 00:47:21,116 --> 00:47:34,956 Speaker 1: I do want it. Come As You Are is a 738 00:47:34,996 --> 00:47:38,756 Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries and Madison Wells. It's hosted by 739 00:47:38,796 --> 00:47:42,476 Speaker 1: Emily Nagowski. You can find Emily on Instagram at e 740 00:47:42,676 --> 00:47:46,836 Speaker 1: Nagowski and on Twitter at Emily Nagowski. You can also 741 00:47:46,916 --> 00:47:50,476 Speaker 1: sign up for her newsletter at gimially Nagowski dot com, 742 00:47:50,476 --> 00:47:53,556 Speaker 1: where she writes about everything from the clitteriest in your 743 00:47:53,556 --> 00:47:57,836 Speaker 1: mind to orgasm after having hysterected me. It's an incredible newsletter. 744 00:47:57,956 --> 00:48:01,956 Speaker 1: Highly recommended. This show is co hosted and Leave produced 745 00:48:01,996 --> 00:48:05,236 Speaker 1: by me Mola Board. You can find me online at 746 00:48:05,276 --> 00:48:10,996 Speaker 1: Mola board and on TikTok at podcast, dot slut, Sorry mom. 747 00:48:11,036 --> 00:48:13,956 Speaker 1: My co producer on this show is the fabulous Brittany Brown. 748 00:48:14,476 --> 00:48:18,076 Speaker 1: Our editor is Kate Parkinson Morgan. Sound design and mix 749 00:48:18,196 --> 00:48:22,196 Speaker 1: by Anne Pope. Executive producers are Mia LaBelle and LEETL. 750 00:48:22,316 --> 00:48:28,076 Speaker 1: Mallod at Pushkin Thanks to Heather Faine, Carl Migliori, Sophie Crane, 751 00:48:28,516 --> 00:48:33,956 Speaker 1: Courtney Guarino, Jason Gambrel, Julia Barton, John Schnars, and Jacob 752 00:48:33,956 --> 00:48:39,116 Speaker 1: Weisberg at Madison Wells. Thanks to Kylie Williams, Elizabeth Goodstein 753 00:48:39,356 --> 00:48:44,996 Speaker 1: and Gg Pritzker. Additional thanks to Rich Stevens, Lindsay Edgecombe, 754 00:48:45,316 --> 00:48:50,876 Speaker 1: Frolick Media, and Peter Acker at Armadillo Audio Group. Original 755 00:48:50,956 --> 00:48:55,156 Speaker 1: music for this series was composed by Ameliagowski and arranged 756 00:48:55,156 --> 00:49:00,756 Speaker 1: and recorded by Alexandra Kalinovsky. Additional music from Epidemic Sound. 757 00:49:01,836 --> 00:49:05,836 Speaker 1: You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin Pods, 758 00:49:06,196 --> 00:49:08,516 Speaker 1: and you can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin 759 00:49:08,636 --> 00:49:11,716 Speaker 1: dot f M. If you love this show and others 760 00:49:11,716 --> 00:49:17,116 Speaker 1: from Pushkin Industries, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus 761 00:49:17,316 --> 00:49:21,876 Speaker 1: is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and uninterrupted 762 00:49:21,916 --> 00:49:25,396 Speaker 1: listening for only four ninety nine a month. Look for 763 00:49:25,476 --> 00:49:29,876 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions or at pushkin dot fm. 764 00:49:29,916 --> 00:49:32,676 Speaker 1: If you subscribe to Pushkin Plus, you can hear Come 765 00:49:32,676 --> 00:49:36,476 Speaker 1: as you Are and other Pushkin shows add free, very nice, 766 00:49:36,756 --> 00:49:40,036 Speaker 1: and you'll get episodes a week early. Sign up on 767 00:49:40,076 --> 00:49:42,356 Speaker 1: the Come as you Are show page in Apple Podcasts 768 00:49:42,596 --> 00:49:46,356 Speaker 1: or at pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, 769 00:49:46,756 --> 00:49:50,516 Speaker 1: listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 770 00:49:50,596 --> 00:49:51,156 Speaker 1: like to listen