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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight, or.

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Speaker 1: Showed us an email at trust Me pod at gmail

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust Me.

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Speaker 4: Trust Me.

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Speaker 5: I'm like a swat person. I've never lied to you,

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Speaker 5: I've never had.

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Speaker 2: A live about If you think that one person has

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Speaker 2: all the answers, don't.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to trust Me.

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Speaker 2: The podcast about cults, extreme belief and Manipulation from two

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Speaker 2: people just trying their best.

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Speaker 3: I am Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: In part two of our interview today with Minjo, survivor

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Speaker 2: of the Cultural Revolution in China as well as Distinguished

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Speaker 2: Professor of Sociology and Asian American Studies at UCLA, We're

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Speaker 2: going to talk more about her personal experience. We'll discuss

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Speaker 2: why her dad was a target of the Red Guards,

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Speaker 2: what it felt like knowing her family was in danger

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Speaker 2: at such a young age. People were massacred in different

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Speaker 2: parts of China, and the human cost of this mass hysteria,

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Speaker 2: hatred stoking, and group thing originally led by Chairman Mao

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Speaker 2: and his cult like propaganda campaigns.

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Speaker 1: She'll tell us about her parents both being sent to

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Speaker 1: labor camps, the ways she and her siblings survived with

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Speaker 1: them gone, how the cultural revolution finally calmed down over time,

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Speaker 1: and how she ended up all the way out here

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Speaker 1: in La finally achieving her dream of teaching.

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Speaker 2: Before we get into the rest of Professor Joe's story,

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Speaker 2: just so you know, we will be discussing massacres and

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Speaker 2: pretty harrowing situations, so heads up, that's what you're in for.

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Speaker 2: Before we get into it with her, I would like

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Speaker 2: to know from Megan here what her cultiest thing of

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Speaker 2: the week is.

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Speaker 1: Mine's pretty benign compared to what the professor has been through,

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Speaker 1: but you know what, it's on my heart this week,

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Speaker 1: So we're gonna go there.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I like five years ago, had.

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Speaker 1: A crush on a man who was in a slightly

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Speaker 1: higher position than me and kind of a culty environment. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to go further into what that environment was.

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Speaker 1: But he was so hot and he had like authority,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, ooh, I love him. And I

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Speaker 1: didn't have a boyfriend or anything at this time, and

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Speaker 1: I would like try to flirt with him and he

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Speaker 1: wouldn't flare back because those are the rules of the group,

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Speaker 1: like you can And I thought that was really hot, Like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god. So then this last month he moved.

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Speaker 1: We started kind of texting with each other, and it

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Speaker 1: was just one red flag after the other. But he's

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Speaker 1: like a pillar of my psyche now, holding up like

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Speaker 1: one part of my brain. And I flew too close

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Speaker 1: to the sun and started kind of like talking sexy

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Speaker 1: with him and stuff, and then he told me something

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Speaker 1: that was so crazy that I had to stop talking

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Speaker 1: to him. And I feel like I'm being ripped out

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Speaker 1: of a cult. Oh, the cult of crushes, the cult

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Speaker 1: of the original cult.

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Speaker 2: So you were in the cult of being obsessed with

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Speaker 2: this man and then he told you something so crazy,

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Speaker 2: so crazy.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that has to be really crazy.

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Speaker 6: It's insane.

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Speaker 3: You were very into him.

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Speaker 2: Well, we want to know what the story is, Megan,

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Speaker 2: What does it pertain to?

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Speaker 6: Well, I know, I know.

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Speaker 1: He's dating people, right, we live into different states and whatever,

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Speaker 1: and we're not dating each other, so like, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: know he's dating a bunch of people. I'm not dating

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Speaker 1: anyone because I'm boring. But one of the people, the

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Speaker 1: women he was dating, was so young that I couldn't Oh,

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Speaker 1: I couldn't sit with that.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I know, I know that pain.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, bummer, bummer. But yeah, I just really realized.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it really took that to snap me out

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Speaker 1: of it because I thought he was such a good guy.

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Speaker 2: I mean, probably for the best if he doesn't even

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Speaker 2: live here. No, and seems like you were engaging a

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Speaker 2: lot of fantasy.

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Speaker 3: Maybe sure, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I'm just absolutely okay, just saying things and seeing if

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Speaker 2: they're correct. Oh well, welcome back to the real world.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean krushes are a cult in and of themselves,

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Speaker 1: and they can be fun or they can be awful,

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Speaker 1: and when they end, they're pretty awful.

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Speaker 6: But you know what, sometimes they just need them to

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Speaker 6: get through the day.

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Speaker 3: And it's true, just have something nice to think about

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Speaker 3: in a harrowing world.

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Speaker 1: This is why we can't have nice things though, because

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Speaker 1: sometimes they ask they go out with women that are children,

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Speaker 1: but not literally children, you know what I mean, I do.

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Speaker 5: What about you?

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Speaker 6: What's your cultist say?

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Speaker 2: In the week, our wonderful producer Steve sent us an article.

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Speaker 6: Oh he did.

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Speaker 3: Indeed, bear with me. It's not literally a cult.

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Speaker 2: But there is this news story about a thirty five

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Speaker 2: year old Bank of America investment banker who died from

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Speaker 2: a blood clot this month after he had been saying

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Speaker 2: that he really wanted to leave the bank because he

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Speaker 2: was working over one hundred hours a week and it

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Speaker 2: was like taking over his life. I guess this has

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Speaker 2: caused a stir because this is a huge problem in

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Speaker 2: the finance community of people just working themselves to a death.

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Speaker 2: You know, there was another instance like this, I want

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Speaker 2: to say, in twenty thirteen there was another intern who

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Speaker 2: was working like all night and just unreasonable, in humane hours.

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Speaker 6: How many hours are I and a week?

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Speaker 3: Lefsy, So great question.

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Speaker 2: I was curious about this myself because I don't do math.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 2: There are one hundred and sixty eight total hours in a.

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Speaker 3: Week, right, seven days?

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Speaker 5: Got it?

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Speaker 1: Okay, So there's one hundred and what sixty eight?

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Speaker 2: One hundred and sixty eight total So if you're working

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Speaker 2: one hundred and a typical work week would be forty

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Speaker 2: hours a week, right, So if you're working one hundred

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Speaker 2: hours a week.

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Speaker 3: That's fucking crazy.

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Speaker 2: And it also is not surprising because that is like

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Speaker 2: the nature of that type of industry is so it's

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Speaker 2: hustle culture. It's this obsessive sort of capitalism. Make more money,

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Speaker 2: make more money, make more money, don't ever stop. The Weirdly,

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Speaker 2: the one thing I can and kind of compare it

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Speaker 2: to in my own life is when I started out

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Speaker 2: in the music industry. I guess, well, I've always been

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Speaker 2: in the music, but like when I started out legitimately

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Speaker 2: in the music industry, like doing like pop music writing sessions.

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Speaker 2: Back in the day, there was this sense that people

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Speaker 2: had and this way people would talk that was about

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Speaker 2: like you got a hustle, You got a hustle, you

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Speaker 2: got a hustle, and it was about this like working

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Speaker 2: as hard as you can until you're like you have

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Speaker 2: no soul left and you're just like bones, being like

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Speaker 2: this book is sick, right, you know right. And then

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Speaker 2: there's been since then, like a lot of songwriters have

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Speaker 2: reacted to that and been like, no, I don't want

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Speaker 2: to hustle until I'm dead. I want to like have

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Speaker 2: a life, live my life, do my work, go home,

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Speaker 2: and like not have this idea of like being a

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Speaker 2: hustler take over my life. It's great to work hard,

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Speaker 2: it's great to be passionate, it's great to be really

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Speaker 2: you know, fervent in your endeavors. But like, if all

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Speaker 2: we're doing and all of our time is consumed by

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Speaker 2: bad grammar, there can forgive me by our work or

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Speaker 2: our job that is cult Like it's taking over all

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Speaker 2: of your time. It's by default isolating you from the

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Speaker 2: people in your life.

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Speaker 6: No sleep.

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Speaker 2: No sleep is turning off your critical thinking, and then

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Speaker 2: it becomes it's just fixation on this end result that

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Speaker 2: may may never come, or even if it does come,

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Speaker 2: it's not going to give you the satisfaction that you

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Speaker 2: think it's going to give you.

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Speaker 3: So anyway, that's.

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Speaker 1: That's my and it I mean, I guess creatives are

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Speaker 1: kind of on the forefront of the people being like, hey,

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Speaker 1: we're stepping.

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Speaker 6: Away, you know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, like yeah, doctors and lawyers and finance people

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Speaker 1: like there're a lot of the job is like you

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Speaker 1: got to be up when the stock market does this,

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Speaker 1: or when your er patient does that or whatever, and

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Speaker 1: it's just it's just why.

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Speaker 2: Well, even some of that with doctors, I'm like that

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Speaker 2: I can't literally literally physically not like your decision making

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Speaker 2: skills are going to be impaired when you're up for

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Speaker 2: too long. So I look forward to like twenty years

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Speaker 2: from now when this like obsessive work culture please driven

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Speaker 2: by the bottom line from the people at the top,

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Speaker 2: has calmed down a little, because that's where in the

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Speaker 2: film industry, that's where it's going.

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Speaker 3: Crew or fighting back unions are union ing. Yeah, so

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Speaker 3: you know capitalism as a cult.

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Speaker 1: So the cult of capitalism which I like capitalism, and

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Speaker 1: the cult of crushes, which I also like crushes.

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Speaker 3: She loves these cults. This is very she's pro.

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Speaker 1: Pro pro capitalism, pro crash.

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Speaker 3: Shall we speak to men, let's do it?

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Speaker 2: Okay, So your dad worked in the government and he'd

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Speaker 2: been a previous revolutionary. You said, was everyone who was

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Speaker 2: a part of that government targeted? Was he targeted just

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Speaker 2: because of he worked in that capacity?

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Speaker 5: Pretty much? Most of the people who are kind of

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Speaker 5: in authory tat positions they got perched, right. But there

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Speaker 5: are people who sided with the red guy or with

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Speaker 5: the revolutionaries. They are spare. But in order to be spare,

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Speaker 5: you have to side with them and criticize your leader.

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Speaker 3: And your dad refused to do.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, but my dad is the leader, right, so so

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Speaker 5: he was kind of the number one guy in the unit, right,

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Speaker 5: so people would perch him. But those who are in

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Speaker 5: the lower ran you know, they could side. If you

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Speaker 5: don't SiGe, you become the target.

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Speaker 2: Right, and people would be kind of put on. I

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Speaker 2: want to say trial, but trial, and I applies that

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Speaker 2: there's some fairness, but just kind of like a witch

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Speaker 2: hunt where they're like put in a group and being like,

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Speaker 2: do you side with the correct side?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 5: They do?

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Speaker 6: They do?

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Speaker 1: Could your dad be like, I don't want to be

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Speaker 1: an authority anymore? Just kidding, I don't believe this.

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Speaker 5: I don't know at the time. I think, including my dad,

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Speaker 5: that generation, they also have a sense of moral standard

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Speaker 5: and they have a sense of what right or wrong,

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Speaker 5: and they hold on to what they believe. They feel that,

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Speaker 5: you know, they have been fighting for a new China

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Speaker 5: and that's the right way to go.

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Speaker 1: So they don't But what was his dream China? Like,

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Speaker 1: what were those people in charge of? What were they

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Speaker 1: fighting for?

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Speaker 5: I remember my dad's version of China. He doesn't use

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Speaker 5: equality that work, but his version of China is everybody

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Speaker 5: you know there are food on the table. Everybody is

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Speaker 5: fed properly, you know, have clothing, you know, have a

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Speaker 5: shelter kind of like that. So he believed that the

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Speaker 5: Communist Party that China could achieve that. And when they

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Speaker 5: are seeing the cameo the cooperative, my father said, this

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Speaker 5: is not the right way to go because there are

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Speaker 5: free riders. And then also it's not productive.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because they're free.

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Speaker 5: What did you say, free riders? So because you are,

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Speaker 5: the pay is the same, right, So whether you work

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Speaker 5: or not, it's the same. And then if you are

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Speaker 5: more articulate, you can talk more than you do. So

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Speaker 5: my father doesn't like that. And then when he he

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Speaker 5: would criticize these people, he would pick on those people

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Speaker 5: say you have to do things rather than talk.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 5: Then when it comes to a campaign, then those people

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Speaker 5: would take revenge.

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Speaker 6: Oh my goodness.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So how can you talk about how and when

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Speaker 2: your parents were taken to camps and what that was.

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Speaker 4: Like for you.

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Speaker 5: Ah, well, my father was taken to camp first nineteen

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Speaker 5: sixty seven, Yeah, nineteen sixty six. The end of nineteen

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Speaker 5: sixty six, my father was sent to a remote island.

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Speaker 5: He couldn't come home. He could come home once a year,

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Speaker 5: just for a few days, and my mom. At that time,

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Speaker 5: my mom was in the city. She also had the

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Speaker 5: city's public house bureau, so she's a bureaucrat. And also

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Speaker 5: but somehow my mom didn't get as much or as

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Speaker 5: harsh criticismsm as my dad. Right. I don't know where

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Speaker 5: the gender plays a road to it, but my mother

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Speaker 5: didn't get to send to the labor camp until a

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Speaker 5: year later, so she did get to the labor camp.

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Speaker 5: And then that leaves the three of us, you know,

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Speaker 5: three totally free in a house. Six other families move in,

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Speaker 5: you know, the workers' family move in. And then we

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Speaker 5: had a big house, right petition, different rooms, so one

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Speaker 5: room lived in one family. So I should say that

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Speaker 5: on the one hand, just the three of us, right,

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Speaker 5: my grandmother lived with my aren't in the same time,

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Speaker 5: and even sometimes we went to our aunt's home, my cousin,

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Speaker 5: her only daughter, who is very young. Then you know,

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Speaker 5: we got the door and wouldn't let us in because

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Speaker 5: she feel that when we come in we eat her food.

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Speaker 5: You're like, yep, yeah, she wouldn't let us in. So

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Speaker 5: you know, I was ten eleven then, and my little

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Speaker 5: sister was five and then I have a younger brother

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Speaker 5: who is a year younger but kind of fifteen sixteen

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Speaker 5: kids our age moving, so we have a good playmate. Wow,

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Speaker 5: So for us it's not too bad.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean kids can make the best.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: How are you feeding yourselves?

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Speaker 5: Well, we eat in the state dining room. Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 5: so we eat in the state dining room, and then

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Speaker 5: there is ration and stuff. But during weekend we have

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Speaker 5: to cook for ourselves and the government there is ration,

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Speaker 5: there is very little. And then also I remember my

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Speaker 5: uncle who is from the countryside, and they don't have

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Speaker 5: enough to eat. When whenever my uncle come, he always

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Speaker 5: come with some you know feel and like the wooden

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Speaker 5: feel for us from the countryside, right, and then sometimes

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Speaker 5: he would bring some vegetables to us in order for

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Speaker 5: me to cook the rice for him. But if he come,

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Speaker 5: he would eat our rice. So I didn't like that.

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Speaker 5: So I'm so stressful because because for us we only

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Speaker 5: eat like a bowl of rice for a meal, but

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Speaker 5: he could eat sixpos on rice in one migue.

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Speaker 6: Why didn't he get sent to anything.

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Speaker 5: No, he's the peasant, right, he's a person, he's the

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Speaker 5: good element.

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Speaker 3: I see, were you sad? When your parents from like did.

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Speaker 6: You miss that?

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Speaker 5: We miss them, but in a way we were too

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Speaker 5: young to feel sad. So one of it is because

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Speaker 5: we feel free.

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Speaker 1: There's no parents, the box car children, yeah, could be

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Speaker 1: long stock.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: And then during the weekend we have some place to

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Speaker 5: go because we walk five kilometers to my mother's farm.

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Speaker 5: My mother is a doctor, right. My mother was raising

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Speaker 5: pigs there and chickens and there, and we have a

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Speaker 5: lot of fun in the farm there without knowing the parents' harshship. Right,

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Speaker 5: So we have a place to go during the weekend.

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Speaker 2: That is so interesting, like forgotten children of the people

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Speaker 2: who were sent to these camps that it's an experience

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Speaker 2: I have never thought about. And what was happening in

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Speaker 2: the camps, Like what was your dad doing?

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Speaker 3: What were they hot labor?

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Speaker 5: Physical labor like they are doing farming.

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Speaker 2: And would he be punished I assume if he wasn't

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Speaker 2: didn't comply like how.

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Speaker 5: He would but everybody comply eyes And life is very

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Speaker 5: simple and hard, right, And you don't have enough to eat,

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Speaker 5: and then you you sleep in the how to say,

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Speaker 5: a big chat, right, and they build two layers of beds,

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Speaker 5: so you basically just we call it in a cow's shed.

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Speaker 6: So two layers and.

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Speaker 5: My dad even told me the story a bitter that

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Speaker 5: make us cry and make us love. He said, your

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Speaker 5: father's sock has no bottom. So my father said, well,

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Speaker 5: it is cold even in the south right where it

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Speaker 5: is cold, is very cold because there is no heating indoors,

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Speaker 5: so everybody wear the shock. And then when they are

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Speaker 5: sitting on that, you know, this large kind of large bed.

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Speaker 5: So people play poker, right, and my father always you know,

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Speaker 5: go bear of food.

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Speaker 6: And bedding on a sock trying to win one.

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Speaker 5: And other people said it's so cold, well you go

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Speaker 5: bear foot. He said, it's more comfortable without knowing that

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Speaker 5: he has no bottom because there is holes and he

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Speaker 5: feel embarrassed for it.

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Speaker 4: I know.

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Speaker 5: So you told us that story, we love and we

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Speaker 5: also cry.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's heartbreaking.

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Speaker 2: So while this is going on, people are being purged

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Speaker 2: and sent to labor camps. Is the idea that they

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Speaker 2: will like rehabilitate from the bourgeois to more of an everyman.

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Speaker 5: Like, Yeah, that's the idea. It's called re education. Like

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Speaker 5: it's to unwind your ideas, to get in touch with

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Speaker 5: the peasants, with the workers and then you know what

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Speaker 5: life is like and you become purer from the bourgeois influence.

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Speaker 4: Wow, so they would kill people.

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Speaker 6: What was that like?

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Speaker 5: Well, the killing it comes from the fraction of the regard.

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Speaker 5: So the record would fight against one another. I don't

355
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Speaker 5: quite understand how the Recguard fight. So it's called military fight.

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Speaker 5: And somehow the Red Guard even get a hold of

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Speaker 5: guns because at that time, every factory or every unit

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Speaker 5: they have the militia. Right, the militia is armed and

359
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Speaker 5: it's the party's call. People should be armed and should

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Speaker 5: be ready to guard your country. So everybody, if you

361
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Speaker 5: are in a unit, then you joined the militia and

362
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Speaker 5: then you have military training and that so all of

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Speaker 5: a sudden, during the chaotic situation, the guns get led up,

364
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Speaker 5: and that's when I think, when the killing begins. Otherwise

365
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Speaker 5: it's you know, like the beat up people. So some

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Speaker 5: deaths is from the beating I see. Yeah, and then

367
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Speaker 5: there are people who commit suicide too. Yeah, a lot

368
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Speaker 5: of people commit suicide.

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Speaker 2: So like there were different massacres of different scales in

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Speaker 2: different places through different methods.

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Speaker 3: But it's almost like this network of like many cults

372
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Speaker 3: that are all part of this larger cult kind of.

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Speaker 5: I think it's localizes. So for example, the records in

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Speaker 5: one place stay split into two, and that split every

375
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Speaker 5: city or every time the split is the same, but

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Speaker 5: where the fractional fighting is at the same scale. It depends.

377
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Speaker 5: In some cities it's more severe. Beijing in Uhan is

378
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Speaker 5: I think it's the most severe.

379
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Speaker 3: What does that mean, Like, I don't know.

380
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Speaker 5: Because Uhan is a heavy industrial city. You know, the

381
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Speaker 5: workers are very organized and they have in different units

382
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Speaker 5: they have guns, so once they get a hang of

383
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Speaker 5: the guns, things could escalated.

384
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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a massacre, the Kwang Si massacre. According to Wikipedia,

385
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Speaker 2: it says it was a series of events involving lynching

386
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Speaker 2: and direct massacre during the Cultural Revolution. The official record

387
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Speaker 2: shows an estimated death toll of one hundred thousand to

388
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Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty thousand, and methods of slaughter included heading, beating,

389
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Speaker 2: live burial, stoning, drowning, boiling, and disemboweling.

390
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Speaker 5: Like, execution is kind of official, right, so if you

391
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:55,240
Speaker 5: say something wrong, you could get executed. My brother actually

392
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Speaker 5: always go to see because it's open, right, you can see.

393
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Speaker 6: Oh wow, yeah, they announced it in the newspaper.

394
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Speaker 5: No, they have all these people being executed to be

395
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Speaker 5: on a truck with the kind of the paper head

396
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,399
Speaker 5: and with a ball in front, your name cross and

397
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Speaker 5: then your hands tied at the back and you have

398
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Speaker 5: to go around tongue before you get executed.

399
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Speaker 3: It's a game of thrones.

400
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Speaker 1: And the high you're explaining is kind of like a

401
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 1: dunce cap.

402
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,439
Speaker 6: I think it's how we say it here. It's like

403
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:34,280
Speaker 6: a no.

404
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 5: It's a tall paper head that is pointed right.

405
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Speaker 6: It's yeah, yeah, what's the meaning of that?

406
00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:44,880
Speaker 5: That means you're going to be executed? You're bad?

407
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:45,400
Speaker 6: Yeah?

408
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 1: Here, it just means that you sat in a corner

409
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Speaker 1: wearing it in class.

410
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Speaker 5: If you search on the internet, you may find some

411
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Speaker 5: image of that. And then you have a ball, your

412
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 5: hangar ball. My father had that when he was put

413
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Speaker 5: into public um.

414
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Speaker 6: Wow, we when your father was.

415
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,240
Speaker 5: Brought to what my father was brought to the public

416
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:14,800
Speaker 5: dining room during lunchtime for public right criticism. So everybody

417
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:19,440
Speaker 5: said down with Joe laming, down with you right a name,

418
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Speaker 5: or down with somebody. So you are with a few people.

419
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Speaker 2: So there's like public shaming and humiliation rituals before whatever

420
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Speaker 2: your ultimate punishment is, which could be going to a

421
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Speaker 2: camp or it could be being.

422
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Speaker 5: Right right, right, But he was called to the public

423
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Speaker 5: dining room every day he was detained. Yeah. Wow, so

424
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 5: you got detained first and then you get sent to

425
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Speaker 5: the camp.

426
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Speaker 2: I mean, but he did not get killed in this context.

427
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Speaker 5: Right, No, but he could Yeah he could have. Yeah,

428
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 5: I mean, because he didn't say anything. Yeah, so if

429
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 5: you say something, you could get killed.

430
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Speaker 4: Yeah.

431
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 1: It sounds like if you're like SaaS back or something.

432
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Speaker 1: But like the woman who gave him the like except

433
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Speaker 1: the gun, I could right now.

434
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Speaker 6: I know, yeah you could. So he had like that ability.

435
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,640
Speaker 5: To ten years ago. He had that already.

436
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 6: Yeah.

437
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, when did things start to get better?

438
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,199
Speaker 5: I think the things get better when the records are

439
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 5: sent to the countryside send down youth. So that's kind

440
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 5: of calmed down the whole thing. But the economic situation

441
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 5: is also very bad. So when the youth gets sent down,

442
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 5: there is also a call right responding to the party's call,

443
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 5: that you get sent down to the countryside for re education,

444
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 5: as if you want to do it voluntarily. But in

445
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:45,120
Speaker 5: fact this is a way to ease the unemployment problem

446
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,440
Speaker 5: and the urban problem. Right, they send all the youth

447
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,120
Speaker 5: back to the countryside, and that's when the youth suffer

448
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,440
Speaker 5: from the consequences because when they are sent to the countryside,

449
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 5: they are on their own, and they don't have enough

450
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 5: to eat, and they have to do hot labor. And yeah,

451
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 5: you are not Yeah you're not in the cake labor

452
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 5: cam right, you are supposed to be volunteerily doing going there.

453
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 5: And then the young women get rape and you know

454
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 5: a lot of these horrible things happening.

455
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like they're keeping them exhausted and hungry

456
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,200
Speaker 1: and controlled, and.

457
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,399
Speaker 5: So that's a lost generation generation.

458
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 2: I feel like there was an idealism even throughout all

459
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 2: this violence.

460
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 3: There's this like idealism and this.

461
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 2: Idea of a perfect society that they could live in.

462
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 2: And then when actually faced with the reality of what

463
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:46,120
Speaker 2: that looks like, which is like humans unfortunately, like have

464
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,680
Speaker 2: really bad tendencies and like have to be organized in

465
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 2: some way other than just yeah labor.

466
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, when you are when the US are sent to

467
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:01,479
Speaker 5: the countryside to do farm labor, hot labor, it was

468
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 5: also idealistically it's a good thing to go to do

469
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 5: because you respond to MOUs care. And then also you

470
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 5: need to purify your mind and you need to learn

471
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 5: how to grow things and stuff, which was fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

472
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,439
Speaker 5: it's a good thing to do. I remember when I

473
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 5: graduated from high school. At that time, I was sixteen,

474
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 5: and I wanted to go too. But that was after

475
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 5: the you know, the great sent down movement. But then,

476
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 5: you know, at that time, when you graduated from high school,

477
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 5: there was no college, right. Then you get assigned to jobs.

478
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 5: You're assigned to jobs, and when they run enough jobs,

479
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 5: the government sent you down, right, And at that time,

480
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 5: I feel that I want to go. I want to

481
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 5: go down. I was only sixteen because I skip some grades,

482
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 5: so I graduated younger. And my mother said, no, you

483
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 5: cannot go. I said, well, if I go, then my brother,

484
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 5: who would be graduating one year later, then he could stay.

485
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 5: He could stay in town. So that was kind of

486
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,879
Speaker 5: a policy. My mother said, no, he's a boy. He

487
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 5: could handle anything. If he had to go, he had

488
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 5: to go. But you never know, you know, my parents

489
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 5: know better. You know, one year later, policy may change, right,

490
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 5: But my brother indeed went to was sent down when

491
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 5: it was his time. So I was assigned to a

492
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 5: factory when I graduated from high school.

493
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 2: So basically, the Red Guards are center these farms, and

494
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 2: then everything starts to calm down because they're not.

495
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 3: Able to actively purge people as much.

496
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 4: And then on the.

497
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 2: Larger scale politically, like how did things change change or

498
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 2: when did things change?

499
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 5: Well, the craziness comes down, right because Mao also realized

500
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 5: that things get out of control and something must be done.

501
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 5: So to do something is to send this generation down

502
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 5: intentional to send down one is to come things done.

503
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 5: The other is to resolve the unemployment problem. Right, So

504
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 5: there are three classes of high school kids right at

505
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 5: that time. High school is three years three times three.

506
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 5: These three years of high school kids, they got all

507
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 5: sent down at the same time, and then we would

508
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 5: resume classes, so we would go to class but not

509
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 5: normal and then graduate on time. Right. I graduated from

510
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 5: high school in nineteen seventy two. At that time, you know,

511
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 5: there still to send down policy. I wanted to be

512
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 5: sent down in order to have my brother stay, right,

513
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 5: but my mom said, no, you cannot because sending down

514
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 5: the majority of your high school cohort gets sent down. Right,

515
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,919
Speaker 5: and you want to be, you know, kind of a

516
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 5: model student. You want to you know, take the lead

517
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 5: of doing that. It's the right thing to do. The

518
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 5: kind of thing.

519
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 3: So when I stay.

520
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 5: Behind, I feel that I let my classmate down because

521
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 5: we thought that we could all go down together.

522
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 6: But now I chicken out right.

523
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 2: It wasn't just the Red Guards then, it was every

524
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 2: every high school.

525
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, wow, that was you know, the red gud.

526
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 6: Has passed it over. Okay, it's over.

527
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 3: Okay, so you're done. And if you were reunited with

528
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 3: your parents, then.

529
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 5: I reunited with my mom. First, my father gets sent

530
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 5: down for sixty seven to seventy two, so for a

531
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 5: long longer time. So even seventy three, when my dad

532
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 5: comes back seventy three, seventy two, I was I remember

533
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 5: that my mom gets sent back to the city because

534
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 5: she had a health issue, and then my dad was

535
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 5: called back to what.

536
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 6: Was that to take my mother to get reconnected with them.

537
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 5: I was already go to a factory, right and I

538
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 5: did not stay in town. My fact the factory was

539
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 5: like I have to stay in the dorm and come

540
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 5: home only once or twice a months. Oh my god,

541
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 5: So I bicycle to come home. It's like twenty miles away,

542
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 5: but you cannot stay in town. So at that time,

543
00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 5: I don't really know.

544
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 3: It wasn't like your back.

545
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 5: Dad.

546
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 3: It was just kind of like, I'm going to the

547
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 3: factory and doing my job, right, that's really fair.

548
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 5: I was already away, so I don't know.

549
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:24,719
Speaker 2: So then, briefly, how did you come to be a

550
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 2: professor at UCLA?

551
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 5: Well, ever since I was little, I always wanted to

552
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 5: be a teacher, right, and then during the Cultural Revolution,

553
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 5: I said no, no, I would never want to be

554
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 5: a teacher. I can't, you know. You know that was bad.

555
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 5: And as a matter of fact, when I was working

556
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 5: in the factory, I actually was signed by the factory

557
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 5: to be a high school teacher in that factory, because

558
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 5: that factory is a huge factory. So I was teaching

559
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,239
Speaker 5: math and English. Not that I know English, but I

560
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 5: know a few more words than others. So you are

561
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 5: teaching the first page of the English text is long

562
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 5: lived chairman mouth nowhere. Yeah. Yeah, so you you just

563
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 5: teach this few characters, the twenty six characters and alphabets,

564
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 5: and then you know the slogans. But anyway, I was sixteen, right,

565
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 5: put into the classroom of a high school classroom, and

566
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 5: the students were sitting on the table. They ignore me

567
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 5: when I come into the classroom. They totally ignore me,

568
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 5: so I cry in front of them to it, so

569
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 5: with no authority. But later on, you know, the factory

570
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 5: authorities know my talent and then call me up to

571
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 5: the factory's propaganda office. So what I did is like

572
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 5: a reporter, because that factory is a huge factory. So

573
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 5: every day I would go to different workshops to interview

574
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 5: the workers and run up for the propaganda in the

575
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 5: evening news, you know, to highlight the good deeds of

576
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 5: the workers and stuff. So it was like a factory.

577
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 4: Wow.

578
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 2: And now is still in power at this point, and

579
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 2: so this is kind of like for his regime still, right.

580
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 5: And then at that time, I always wanted to be

581
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 5: a teacher, but then I you know, I gave up

582
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 5: that dream and I was a teacher, but it was

583
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 5: very disruptive and I didn't like to do that. And

584
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 5: then I wanted very much to go to university. At

585
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 5: that time, universities were close and then it was reopened,

586
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 5: but there was no college entrance examination. That was you know,

587
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 5: historically it's always you go to college and selected by

588
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 5: the college entrance examination, and there was no college entrance examination.

589
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 5: And those who can go to university, they are world

590
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 5: capassant soldiers, right, so those are the revolutionary element, the

591
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 5: good element. So in a factory, you got recommended by

592
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 5: your factory to go to university. But of course once

593
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 5: you recommended, then you know, the university could also have

594
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 5: a selection. And I tried very hard to be a

595
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 5: model worker in order to get myself recommended. Twice I fail,

596
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 5: but then the third time the factory did because the

597
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 5: you know, the leaders feel that I wanted so much

598
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 5: to go to university, and finally they gave in and

599
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 5: recommended me there. And then I always wanted to study English, right,

600
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 5: so so I signed up my wish that I wanted

601
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 5: to study English. And then I was told and I

602
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 5: already had some sort of exam. I was told that

603
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 5: I would be accepted by a university in Beijing studying English.

604
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 5: But when I actually received the admission letter, it was

605
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 5: in the normal university that try teaches, and it's in

606
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 5: the politics department, not English. So I said, what so

607
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 5: my spot was replaced by someone who has better connections.

608
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 5: So I was so devastated, and my dad said, no worries.

609
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,879
Speaker 5: You know, my dad was very worried that I would

610
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 5: go crazy, right, because my kind of my dream got

611
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 5: bashed all of a sudden, and at that time I said, okay, fine,

612
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 5: but I was devastated. I said, fine, then I want

613
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 5: to just you know, fall in love, get married with someone,

614
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,240
Speaker 5: and stay in the factory. At that time, you don't

615
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 5: have any predictable paths to mobility, right, there is no mobility.

616
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 5: And the factory I was working at is one of

617
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 5: the best factories with good benefits. Right, So I said okay,

618
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 5: I was settled on that, and you know, my dream

619
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 5: to go to college is done. But then that the

620
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 5: end of that year, it was it was dan Thing's reform,

621
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:23,240
Speaker 5: so there was a call to resume the college examination.

622
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,919
Speaker 5: So I prepared for three months and then I went

623
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 5: to the examination and I got selected. So that changed.

624
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:39,399
Speaker 5: That changed my past, and I was in English. I

625
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 5: study English in one of the best universities in South China,

626
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 5: sen Yesn University. And then after my graduation, I was

627
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 5: assigned to work at the university as kind of a

628
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 5: lecturer or something. And then that was when there is

629
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:02,359
Speaker 5: opportunity for me to start abroad. So that's when I

630
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 5: came to study. Wow, And the rest is the story.

631
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 5: So I have been very grateful about the opportunity to

632
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 5: study in the US and then later on to find

633
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 5: a job here and find my life here. But when

634
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 5: I came out to study in the US, my intention

635
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 5: was to return. But then you know when I got

636
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,800
Speaker 5: my PhD. It was nineteen eighty nine. The Tennane one

637
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 5: thing that broke out.

638
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 3: That's the Tenement Square massacres.

639
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 4: Yeah.

640
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, so that that made me and a lot of

641
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 5: my students from China, my friends, you know, who share

642
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 5: the same experience as I, to stay.

643
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 2: And for our audience, can you just briefly describe what

644
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 2: that was.

645
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 5: Well, the Tenement's Square massacre was in June fourth, So

646
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 5: now if you type June fourth in the Chinese social media,

647
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 5: it got censor. You can't talk about June fourth. So

648
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 5: June fourth, it was a student movement. Again, it was

649
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:18,439
Speaker 5: the pro democratic movement of students. So students came out

650
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:23,479
Speaker 5: in the Tenements Square and so it was another type

651
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 5: of social movement. Right, so they want the country to

652
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 5: open up and to have more democracy and little on

653
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 5: the government crash the student movement and send soldiers and

654
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 5: tanks onto Tenement Square, not that they kill people.

655
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 2: And so that I imagine would scary for any academic

656
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 2: or intellectual person.

657
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so it's uncertain. So at that point

658
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 5: my family said, don't come back, you know, wait and

659
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 5: then you just stay yeah until now.

660
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 6: Amazing.

661
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 2: I'm so interested in the contradiction between this idea that

662
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 2: like the intellectual is bad and also letting the unintellectual

663
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 2: become an intellectual by going to college.

664
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 5: Well, the intellectuals are bad because they know so much

665
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 5: and they have so many different ways of expression. Right,

666
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 5: so it's a potential risk to the authoritarian party now

667
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 5: to have the masses, to the workers, soldiers, you know,

668
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 5: those who have pure mind to go to university. The

669
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 5: expectation is you change the system, you revolutionize the system,

670
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 5: You change the system so that the education, that knowledge

671
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 5: is all commonness, right, all pure.

672
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 2: Right, so there's no diversity of viewpoints when they're going.

673
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 2: The idea is that it'll be like, right, now, we

674
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 2: can educate people.

675
00:38:58,239 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 6: To all things the same.

676
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 5: And so a lot of those college students, they don't

677
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 5: have the K to twelve training, some of them just

678
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 5: have primary school education. But as long as they display

679
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 5: loyalty to the party, you know, that's the most important.

680
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 2: Is a red flag, folks, red flag loyalty is number.

681
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 5: One, the red obedience and royal obedience.

682
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

683
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 2: So there's an interview with you online where you say

684
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 2: something about how reflecting on the Cultural Revolution is an

685
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 2: opportunity to remember the destructive.

686
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 3: Power of bad leadership.

687
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 2: You know, as humans, we kind of leadership always forms,

688
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 2: We kind of need leadership.

689
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 3: It's how we function in groups.

690
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 2: How do you think or how do you differentiate, like

691
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,399
Speaker 2: between good leadership and bad leadership, Like what do you

692
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 2: kind of look for?

693
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 5: Well, for me, I think the good leaders should listen

694
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 5: to your constituencies and should listen to the people and

695
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 5: act on their feels and should be open.

696
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 3: Right.

697
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 5: So if a bad leadership is authoritarian, that because sometimes

698
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,839
Speaker 5: what you think may be wrong, right, right, So if

699
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 5: what you think is wrong and it becomes wrong policy

700
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:30,760
Speaker 5: and it become harmful. So in a democracy it could

701
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 5: be self correcting, right because through voting you can get

702
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 5: voted done. But in an authoritarian regime, bad leaders could stay.

703
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:41,839
Speaker 3: Right, right.

704
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just all about getting all those different voices,

705
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: and they're like we always well always come back to

706
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: that in those podcasts that there needs to be a

707
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 1: lot of different voices saying a lot of different things.

708
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and critique needs to be allowed in any any

709
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:59,479
Speaker 2: group becomes at risk of becoming a cult or cult

710
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 2: like when there is no ability to question or write

711
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,959
Speaker 2: or have different points of view, And that's when things

712
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:08,839
Speaker 2: can get scary. And that's when the black and white

713
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:13,839
Speaker 2: thinking can occur my way or evil right right?

714
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 5: Right? Either all right, black and white right, So that's

715
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 5: very dangerous.

716
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the destruction of books ideas you know, education, Like,

717
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 2: anytime a group is like burning books, I'm like, that's

718
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 2: probably not.

719
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:35,800
Speaker 5: A good sign, not a good sign.

720
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 2: No, what is one takeaway that you wish people understood

721
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 2: or want people to come away with about the cultural revolution?

722
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 5: Well, you know, when you think about the cultural revolution,

723
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 5: there are also two sides, right, there are the destructive size,

724
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 5: but the lesson of it, Like when you are drawing

725
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 5: lesson of it, there could be good lessons coming up

726
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 5: out of it. And so say, in reflection, there is

727
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,919
Speaker 5: nothing like totally bad or nothing like totally good. Right,

728
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 5: So we have to have an open mind, have some

729
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 5: critical thinking about looking at things, not just blindly be

730
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 5: influenced by other sources of information or other people. Just

731
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 5: have your own view is important. So that also requires

732
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 5: that we are in a kind of open and more

733
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 5: tolerant environment and a democratic environment. So I appreciate so

734
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 5: much about that. Like the US, democracy has its bad

735
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 5: you know, not all good, right, but at least the constitutions,

736
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 5: you know, guarantee our right to freedom of speech, freedom

737
00:42:55,600 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 5: of thinking, and if you are in an authoritarian I'm

738
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 5: all rich you you can't even have that right.

739
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 2: I'm so grateful you came on the podcast. This has

740
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,319
Speaker 2: been so so interesting and yeah, I don't know, I

741
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 2: just think you're awesome.

742
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 5: Well, thank you very much for the opportunity for me

743
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 5: to reflect on it too, because you know, before I

744
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 5: come on, I don't know what I would say.

745
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 2: No, I mean, it's such a crazy thing to live through.

746
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 2: I mean, I can't imagine. But the fact that you're

747
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 2: now an educator and a writer and you know.

748
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 5: Teaching but also living through adversity make you a stronger

749
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 5: and more resilient person and then you have stories to tell.

750
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:45,800
Speaker 6: Awesome.

751
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 3: Well take her classes at UCLA perfect.

752
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 6: Thank you so much for being here.

753
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 5: Amazing of course, thank you.

754
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 6: Wow wow, amazing.

755
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 2: What an insane story when same time and.

756
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 6: History absolutely incredible.

757
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 2: Just makes me reinforces my belief that we need to

758
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:12,359
Speaker 2: do some more more historical cult episodes and also eat

759
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 2: more smores.

760
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:15,240
Speaker 3: Very important, very relevant.

761
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 2: So okay, So obviously the cultural revolution is and we

762
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 2: kind of came to our conclusions at the end of

763
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 2: the interview itself, but just for the sake of our outro, obviously,

764
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 2: this is the most extreme version of what humans are

765
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 2: capable of. You know, killing other people, dehumanizing other people

766
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 2: to that extent is the most extreme.

767
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 3: It's like about as far as you can go.

768
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 2: But in terms of this general like us versus them, tribalism,

769
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 2: this black and white thinking of me good, you bad?

770
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:50,319
Speaker 2: I mean what besides obviously, like maybe the cults that

771
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 2: we have spoken to survivors of and experience in our

772
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 2: own lives, Like, what are some examples that you can

773
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 2: think of that kind of us versus them?

774
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 5: Thinking, well, I had.

775
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: An idea of what to say when you first started

776
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: saying that, but as you kept saying it, it kind

777
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 1: of switched. And you can tell me if you think

778
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,839
Speaker 1: that this is too dumb. Okay, but what's coming to

779
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 1: me is my like middle school and high school, you know,

780
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 1: we were the spartans that meant we were a team

781
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 1: forever and everyone else sucked. We were the spartans, and

782
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 1: that mattered to me.

783
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,280
Speaker 3: I don't know, I mean, it is the idea.

784
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 2: And we talked to researcher Javon Babel, incredible researcher. He's

785
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,720
Speaker 2: doing more on social media now and posting stuff with APA.

786
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:40,320
Speaker 3: It's awesome.

787
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 2: But one of the things that we talked about with

788
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 2: him was how your perception literally changes depending on the

789
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 2: group that you're in. Yes, and this is something I

790
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 2: feel so passionate about everybody knowing and understanding because our

791
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 2: belief about who's.

792
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 3: Good and who's bad is.

793
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 2: Very much there's not an objective real be there necessarily

794
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 2: unless we're interrogating it and looking for evidence outside of

795
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 2: our group totally. So it's scary. It's scary to like

796
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,839
Speaker 2: we need groups as humans, but it's also scary what

797
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 2: groups can.

798
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 3: Do to humans.

799
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I and I will add to this even like, so,

800
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 1: I started off as a as a spartan in kindergarten

801
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 1: and it was a small school and it was like

802
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 1: very ingrained to me. I ended up moving schools in

803
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 1: high school, but still thought of myself as a spartan. Oh,

804
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,919
Speaker 1: really still am like when I am connected to friends

805
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 1: that come us who I think about. So it's just

806
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 1: like if you're a child, I don't.

807
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 6: Know, it just like seeps right in there.

808
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:40,399
Speaker 1: Well.

809
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 2: But the reason I brought up Jay was because I

810
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 2: believe in some of his research he was saying that

811
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 2: a group can be formed in your head of like

812
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 2: the group that you're part of, from these simplest, stupidest things,

813
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:56,799
Speaker 2: right like, oh, we all liked Pokemon in this group.

814
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 1: Or just like even at your Christmas party when we

815
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:02,439
Speaker 1: played games, like I noticed that after the games were over,

816
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 1: people were kind of divided, like it was a dance.

817
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 1: Boys on one side, girls on the other side, but

818
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 1: it was like one team on one side, one team

819
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 1: on the other side.

820
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:11,919
Speaker 6: You know what I mean. We bonded with our team.

821
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 3: Yeah that's weird.

822
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, having moved schools my whole life, I do not.

823
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 2: I don't think I felt that way about any of them.

824
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 1: You can be a spartan, thank you.

825
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 2: You know, when all comes back to the same thing,

826
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 2: look outside your group for your information.

827
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 3: I will not come on spartan forever.

828
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 5: JK.

829
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 1: No, I'm ready. I'm ready to look outside. If anybody

830
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: has any information.

831
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 6: About any other.

832
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 3: Schools because any information just hit her up.

833
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to another episode, y'all. Please rate us

834
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: five stars or don't rate us at all, and uh

835
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 1: come back next week.

836
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 2: And also buy our merch a bit dot l y

837
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 2: slash trust Me Merch.

838
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 1: It's so cute as always, remember to follow your gut,

839
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 1: watch out for red flags, and never ever trust me.

840
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 3: Bye lady.

841
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 2: Trust Me as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

842
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 2: Steve Delemator.

843
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 6: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

844
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:24,959
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

845
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

846
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

847
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:33,319
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

848
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,879
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

849
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

850
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

851
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word