WEBVTT - Does That Make Sense? 0:00:08.320 --> 0:00:13.360 The devisions to as your opinion about America changed because 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:18.680 of this massacre, we. 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:24.320 Have a different opinion about America because Allah Almighty prophesies 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:28.280 that you cannot satisfy Jews and the Christians until you 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:33.560 obey him to follow his path. Our opinion about every 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:35.040 disbeliever is different. 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:39.400 This is because of Isla. 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:41.680 Because Allah Almighty says to unite, but for my sake, 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:45.320 if and separate for my sake, be friends with the 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:49.080 one who is my friend, that which is my enemy, 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:50.159 separate from it. 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:54.120 In the spring of twenty twenty two, the Afghan survivors 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:57.800 from Alakosai Najbien offered us their poignant reflections on the 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:02.560 Kanahar massacre. They come from villages without internet or infrastructure. 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:08.320 In all likelihood they'll never hear this podcast. Still, they 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:11.000 hope to share their perspective on this tragedy to the world. 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:15.480 For them, what happened on March eleventh, twenty twelve was 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:16.680 intensely personal. 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:19.720 Here's Mulla Baran is. 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:25.840 My brother was my right hand and now my right hand. 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:26.200 Is cut off. 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:31.120 Although eleven years have passed since that sadness and I 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:34.800 have some distance from my brother. For me, it feels 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:38.200 the same as that first night. I used to have 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:42.680 five brothers. Now we are left with four. Every time 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:45.480 we meet, I talk about the sadness of that first night. 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:50.760 It's a sadness that has not forgotten in life until death. 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:58.280 Previously, on the war within, I. 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:03.600 Think the situation in Afghanist remained so complicated, and Robert 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:09.639 Bales is a depiction of the complexities of this conflict Afghanistan. 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:13.160 It got demonstrably worse after Bales was gone. 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:16.600 This whole thing became shrouded in mystery and secrecy. 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:19.920 It is my belief that Baals was helped in some 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:22.160 way to commit these crimes. 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:22.000 But. 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:24.520 Didn't they. 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:31.040 Believe It just seemed fundamentally unfair to me that someone. 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:33.320 Who we created should be treated the way it was 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:33.920 being treated. 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:37.760 We already know the dangers of PTSD. You cannot see 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:41.399 a person get blown up into chunks and be okay. 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:44.320 You're going to get a excepensive, very bored in recessed suse. 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:47.120 The Arab is so plain and prejudicial. 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:50.200 You know, it's a heinous act that is very difficult 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:53.280 to judge with American eyes. But I understand how I 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:54.240 got where I was. 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:55.639 I'm Mike McGinnis. 0:02:56.280 --> 0:03:08.920 This is the war within the Robert Bailes story. The 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:11.800 Taliban took control over Afghanistan in the late summer of 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:15.040 twenty twenty one, but they had been gaining ground for 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:18.520 a long time before the formal transfer of power. Hick 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:21.600 Matula da Wu, who lost his dad to Robert Bales, 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:26.000 was born during wartime. At age nineteen, He's now old 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:27.400 enough to fight himself. 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:32.239 I want to say that if I had an axe, 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:36.880 I would fight against these Americans, and if I can, 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:40.200 I will go to America and take my revenge on 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:46.480 Robert Bayals. He killed my father, he threatened my brother 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:50.320 who was four months old. All of this is so 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:54.640 painful for me. This is the life I lead in 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:59.480 the situation I've been telled. Sometimes I have a dream 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:03.200 that Robert Fales will come to Afghanistan once again and 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:05.280 I can finally give him what he deserves. 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:10.839 The villagers of Panzwe are a complex group, and each 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:14.920 one has processed this devastation of family and of country 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:21.840 in different ways, somewhat retribution. Others like Haji Wazir, simply 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:24.520 ask for peace after decades of conflict. 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:29.000 I want the Almighty God to settle our country and calm. 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:32.400 My Afghanistans that there will be no more killing and 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:36.919 war here. Our dream is that our country can be prosperous. 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:40.400 May God keep us away from more calamities and not 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:44.960 bring disaster and war to our homeland. This is our government, 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:47.760 this is our life, and it is acceptable to us. 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:52.159 We neither need nor want anybody else. 0:04:56.760 --> 0:04:59.680 Just as the massacre change the lives of these individuals forever, 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:03.760 it also significantly impacted the tenor of the Afghan war. 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:07.960 Even before the Bail shooting, a sense of unease around 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:10.640 the conduct of US soldiers had been building for some time. 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:14.280 As Private James Alexander recalls, I. 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:16.040 Think it was a few weeks earlier that some Marines 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:20.719 had piss on the Quran, right, and so the Taliban 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:23.200 and the Afghans were all, I mean, understandably, it's their 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:25.600 secret texts, and they're you know, up at arms about it. 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:25.920 Right. 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:30.360 This incident from January of twenty twelve, where a group 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.039 of soldiers were caught on video urinating on a Quran, 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:38.360 sparked protests around Afghanistan. With the Bales killing coming two 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:41.120 months later, there seemed to be a growing sentiment of 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:46.560 negativity towards American troops. Here's journalist Yealda Hakim who was 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:47.600 in country at the time. 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:50.400 This was a very dramatic moment. 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:54.279 The Telabama gave the ground, the wall was intensifying, and 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:58.360 then when incidents lacked, the Quran burning and then the. 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:00.720 Roulb of Bales thing, it was like a series of 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:03.960 incidents took place that I think at a. 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:06.000 Very critical time in the country. 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:10.640 And the war shaped how the next almost decade would look. 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:16.440 This lack of trust, security spiraling out of control, Afghan's 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:21.640 increasingly becoming frustrated in the angry Obama was trying to 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:24.920 find a solution with a partner that then President Hamid 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:29.320 Karzai was increasingly being backed into a corner and description 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:32.679 for Karzi, it's all. 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:33.760 About the relationships. 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:35.480 It just felt like. 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:39.760 The Obama administration didn't manage that relationship with him, and 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:44.280 it went darker and darker and darker to the point where. 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:44.880 It hit rock quorder. 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:51.920 Amid stories of American wrongdoing making headlines during an election year, 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:56.599 President Barack Obama took action, traveling to Afghanistan to sign 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:58.240 an agreement with Hamad Karzai. 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:02.000 It was the talking point of all of our conversations 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:05.920 will the afghanstign this security agreement? I think kars I 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:11.000 at that point had so many grievances that he used 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:13.400 the agreement as leverage and a bargaining chip. 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:18.920 There was a powerplay being played where Karzi was sort 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:22.840 of really trying to show Obama that he doesn't hold 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:25.720 all the cards, and oh, really you want this deal, 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:27.840 do you? Well, we're not quite sure if I'm going 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:30.240 to sign it, And given what had taken place in 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:33.040 Iraq and the withdrawal, it was kind of like, let's 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:34.320 not make the same sort of mistakes. 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:35.840 That's have a proper agreement in place. 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:39.800 I've come to Afghanistan to mark a historic moment for 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:43.440 our two nations, and to do so on Afghan soil. 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:45.640 I'm here to affirm the. 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:49.560 Bonds between our countries and to look forward to a 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:54.720 future peace and security and greater prosperity for our nations. 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:57.640 And today we're agreeing to be long term partners in 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:02.560 combating terrorism and training after and security forces, in strengthening 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:07.880 democratic institutions, and supporting development and protecting human rights of 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:09.080 all Afghans. 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:13.360 Obama and Karzai ended up signing their strategic partnership agreement 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:17.120 on May first, twenty twelve, the one year anniversary of 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:20.960 Osama Binlin's death, in less than two months after the massacre. 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:27.680 The deal promised to quote strengthen Afghan sovereignty, stability, and prosperity, 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:31.280 and contribute to our shared goal of defeating al Qaeda 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:36.800 and its extremist affiliates. So what did that mean for 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:38.559 the region of banshwek my. 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:42.880 Situation created a good opportunity for the Taliban to use 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:46.760 my situation here to try to recruit other people and 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:50.480 try to force American policy in the area to a 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:55.200 certain degree. He provided the offensive information opportunity for the 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:58.360 Taliban to say, look at American soldiers and what they're 0:08:58.400 --> 0:08:59.480 doing to our people. 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:04.200 This is actually where my personal experience comes into play. 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:06.760 I've mentioned that I was in Afghanistan in twenty twelve, 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:10.959 deployed only thirty miles or so from Robert bales I 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:14.760 woulness the change that took place in the aftermath. My 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:18.960 platoon learned about the massacre from the army newspaper Stars 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:19.520 and Stripes. 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:23.040 Once we read what happened and. 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:26.080 Got together to talk about it, we knew that this 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:31.680 would make our jobs much harder. Panjwai podcast host Curtis 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:34.840 Grace also has some expertise on the province during this era. 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:39.520 In March of twenty twelve, the Panjoy massacre weakened the 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:42.600 central government's power in the area. They appeared weak because 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:45.600 Bobby Bils never went on trial in Afghanistan. And then 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:47.559 from twenty fourteen, and this is no shit for real, 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:50.840 from twenty fourteen to twenty nineteen, there was no violence 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:54.440 in Panjway. There was nothing like. The Afghan army didn't 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:56.320 get hit, the Afghan local police didn't get hit. They 0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:59.200 weren't bombings. I flew over Pandway all time, never had 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:01.640 an engagement, never I had a mission in Pandway. It 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:05.920 was weird and I just never bought it. Our theory 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:09.160 is there was a deal, you know, basically the Afghan 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:12.240 government I think lost some of their bargaining power and 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:14.440 they made a deal with the Taliban said hey, we 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:17.160 will let you do your thing in Pandua. So I 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:20.199 think the Pandoi massacre was kind of the nail in 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:23.920 the coffin for any chance to really control Pandway. 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:31.480 Just two years after Bales walked off as VSP, the 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:34.440 American presence in the birthplace of the Taliban was either 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:39.960 vastly diminished or gone completely. In that context, it's worth 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:43.120 considering whether the staff sergeant's actions were seen as a 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:46.599 referendum on the United States's policy of counterinsurgency. 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:49.719 I like to say the Kandahart massacre was the day 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:51.840 that we lost the war. I know it sounds really 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:54.839 crazy to say that, but when your strategy is we're 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:57.240 going to put good hearted Americans in these villages and 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:00.240 sort of sway that people with their good heartedness, and 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:02.199 they're going to see that we're helping, and in fact, 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:04.240 one guy goes crazy and kills a bunch of people, 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:06.680 like that's the end of that strategy. The VSP strategy 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:08.040 is not going to be successful after that. 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:12.560 Right, Panjwai was always a Talban powerhouse. You're not going 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:16.559 to change it. And we got really close. We showed 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:19.880 the patch show people what it could be like to 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:22.199 live in a modern society, for women to be able 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:23.720 to vote, for women to able to go to school, 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:26.920 for people to be educated, to have modern infrastructure. But 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:30.200 now that everything's falling apart, we're not going back anytime soon. 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:34.640 Robert Bales made the following comments in twenty nineteen, long 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:37.560 before the official end of America's longest war. 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:43.840 It's going to take a generation to change things, and 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:46.439 we're not, as Americans at this point in the history, 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:51.199 willing to do that. So why put more Americans in 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:54.160 an arm's way for something that we're not going to 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:57.560 see through. We're not going to finish this, you know. 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:01.160 I think the Taliban, we're just waiting. I don't think 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:04.200 that it was a conversion of philosophies. I don't think 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:08.040 one day they were like, Hey, we like the Americans, 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:10.520 now we want to live like them. I think the 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:14.320 idea was, Oh, they're going to leave, let's accumulate all 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:17.640 the assets we can. Let's grab as much stuff as 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:20.320 we can before they leave, and once they're gone, we'll 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:21.120 take back over. 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:29.679 Bales would basically be proven right. As the last American 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:33.359 soldiers fled Afghanistan. On August thirtieth of twenty twenty one, 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:36.480 the Taliban flag was raised in the capital city of Kabu. 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:44.720 Western occupation was over and Islamist extremism ruled again. Journalist 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:49.000 Kathy Gannon braced out why, in hindsight, this was always 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:51.520 going to be the most likely result of an invasion 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:53.400 that had begun two decades prior. 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:58.400 I don't know what the strategy was, Okay, America was 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:01.720 attacked by Kaida, but I think from the beginning America 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:02.319 wanted to. 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:03.280 Go to Iraq. 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:07.079 Two thousand and three, you went to Iraq. You began 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:13.240 twenty year old long before then, Afghanistan was what what 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:17.960 was the strategy? From day one, the level of corruption started, 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:21.080 and the Americans were actively involved in that as well, 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:24.319 because it was expedient. You partnered with people who had 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:28.720 a history of corruption and lawlessness. You partnered with them willingly, 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:31.720 and you gave them a free rate and did nothing 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:35.800 to control that. So it wasn't in twenty twenty one 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:41.400 that this happened. This was twenty years of mismanagement. 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:41.280 That led to it. 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:46.319 The hope was always that a regime could be established, 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:49.640 supported by the civilians that could stand up to the Taliban. 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:53.280 But when the US started to withdraw its troops, it 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:56.120 became clear that their Afghanalyzed did stand a chance. 0:13:56.520 --> 0:13:58.599 As Yalda Hakim explains. 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:04.520 Had become so dependent on the US military for even 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:05.720 the most basic. 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:06.360 Of decision making. 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:08.480 There was a reliance there. 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:10.240 And when you take that. 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:12.400 Rug away from under their feet. 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:16.240 And kind of essentially handicap them and tie their hands 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:19.080 behind their backs, and tie their feet and blindfold them 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:19.840 and gag. 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.120 Them and then just say here's a weapon, try and 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:22.600 use it. 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:25.000 That is essentially what happened. 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:29.240 There wasn't really, in the end, a fight that was 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:33.080 put up, because when you feel handicapped and this corruption, 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:35.320 you're not quite sure what the aim of the purpose 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:38.640 of all of this is, and your partner, the people 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:41.200 offering you air support, all that disappears. 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:43.760 You know, you realize that. 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:46.960 Okay, well, if all that didn't mean anything, what matters? 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:48.880 You know what ultimately matters? 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:50.200 Do I want to lose my life? 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:52.480 Do I want my wife to be a widow? 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:00.920 The Taliban, it would seem, will be in power for 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:04.560 the foreseeable future. Here's what Bob Bales had to say 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.760 about the current state of affairs in Afghanistan speaking to 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:10.600 US in December of twenty twenty two. 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:13.160 You know, I'm going to sit in prison for the 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:15.600 rest of my life, never have the opportunity to go 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:18.440 out there and do anything. And the talent banner sitting 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:22.640 there running their country. I don't understand. I guess I'm 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:28.360 confused and it makes you frustrated every day while I've 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:32.040 been in prison, I've earned my college degree, I'm six 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:36.960 classes away from having my master's degree. I've taken rehabilitation classes. 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:39.640 I've done everything I can do to be a better person. 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:44.000 Then let's compare that to the Taliban. What have they done? 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:48.840 What did they do to oppress women? Children? Move their 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:53.560 country back twenty years? I guess America has decided the 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.240 talent ban deserves a second chance. Not me. 0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:01.200 I knew that Coooble would fall eventually. It was really surprising, 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:04.080 but it does kind of force you to reflect to like, 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:06.240 what was the fucking point? 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:06.560 Man? 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:10.440 Why did we spend twenty years here for it to 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:11.600 fall apart in two weeks. 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:15.440 Most of the other veterans interviewed for this podcast seem 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:18.280 to have mixed feelings about the war and the role 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:20.920 they played. Like Curtis Grace. 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:25.360 I think you frame your service in the proper perspective. 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:27.720 We got orders, we went out and we did what 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:30.080 we were supposed to do, and we came home. That's 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:33.840 a success. And we showed and basically a generation and 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:37.200 a half of Afghan's what freedom was like, you know, 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:39.040 and they're not going to forget that overnight. It's not 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:40.760 like now the talle band's in charge are just going 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:41.880 to completely forget about it. 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:45.840 Special Forces Captain Danny Fields tries to see the good 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:48.840 that came from his service along with the bad. 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:51.400 It's hard to kind of come to terms with the 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:54.360 fact that you know, you deployed multiple times to a location, 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:57.640 You've lost friends, You've got friends who are still alive 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:01.600 but are permanently disabled as a result of it. 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:02.160 It's hard to. 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:04.280 Come to terms with that and know that, you know, 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:07.480 there's this kind of very quick and immediate failure that 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:12.080 occurred in the course of just a few weeks after 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.280 we pulled out. But what I focus on is what 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:16.640 good did I do while. 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:16.880 I was there? 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:20.320 Did I impact something while I was there? And certainly 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:22.640 the bail situation changes the calculus a lot. 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:29.080 It's customary in the States that think a veteran for 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:32.520 their service, but when your time in the military is 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:36.359 linked with an incident like the Canahar massacre, it puts 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:39.919 the idea of fighting for your country in a different line. 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:44.440 James Alexander recalls the tense atmosphere around their squad after 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:48.040 they had left BSB Bellumby and returned to the US. 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:52.320 We're all just drinking to kind of cope with it. 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:56.399 I'm surprised not more happened to us, Like I mean, 0:17:56.440 --> 0:18:00.280 we were honestly reckless, just completely just acting out because 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:03.560 we were just like so enraged with like all of 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:06.240 these feelings and emotions that like we just didn't know 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:08.840 what to do with it. We pretty much destroyed the barracks, 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:12.280 you know. It's like we're breaking stuff and beer bottles everywhere. 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:17.840 It just didn't didn't care, which is angry, angry young men. 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:19.080 With no outlet. 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:23.800 Many of the soldiers, such as Gavin Jones, directed their 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:25.040 frustrations inward. 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:27.160 I couldn't live with myself. 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:30.479 I felt like such a fraud, you know, knowing that 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:33.919 there's parents that are gonna live out the rest of 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:37.720 their like shitty lives, doing shitty afghan any things without 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:41.360 their kids. Just the sight of halfway burned carcasses being 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:44.639 paraded in front of you from someone that is your 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:50.320 leadership really soured my view of authority backed up by violence. 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:53.280 Gavin was so affected by the killings that he opted 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:55.840 to distance himself from his service completely. 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:59.600 After everything went down, I was able to get out 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:03.800 under the conscientious objector cause because after everything that I 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:09.800 witnessed firsthand, I really didn't really want to serve a 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:11.919 military that I'm not going to say propped up that 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:16.560 kind of behavior, but certainly was negligent. You know, running 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:19.760 into enemy fire, helping out your buddy, you know, that's 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:24.159 what I like, but not when really vulnerable people and 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:26.560 a lot of children get caught up in the mix. 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:32.240 After a talk with one of his squad mates, Alexander 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:34.640 started putting in the work to heal his psyche from 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:36.280 this traumatic experience. 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:41.920 When we talk about like PTSD and all of these issues, like. 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:45.280 We were going through it, and that was probably my 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:47.240 first recognition like, oh man, I'm just not gonna go 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:49.720 to beat this myself. And that's when I started talking 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:53.160 to like behavior health people and like therapists and being 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:56.520 really authentic and honest with them and having a cathartic 0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:59.760 experience of talking with them about the situation, how I 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:03.560 well and getting it off my chest. And that's what 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:07.560 saved my career in my life. Honestly, the reason why 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:10.439 I was so able to do this is because of 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:13.960 past trauma. I was involved in a school shooting much 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:17.040 like Columbine back in nineteen ninety six, this guy named 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:20.359 Thomas Hamilton, who was my boy scout troop leader and coach, 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:23.120 went into a school and. 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:33.520 Yep, for Alexander, one of the most scarring events one 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:35.840 might ever witness, felt like it. 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:39.560 Had repeated itself. It begs the question. 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:42.359 Of whether Robert Bales can be classified as yet another 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:47.159 assailant in the American epidemic of mass shootings. In the 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:50.600 eyes of Bob's wife, the answer is clear. 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:57.480 They're trying to liken it to Sandy Hook. That is 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:01.280 completely not true. From his person. He was doing what 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:04.600 had to be done, and that was protecting his men. 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:08.480 He didn't go out to kill innocent civilians. 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:10.680 That was not what he was to do. 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:14.800 Both of the places they had been to previously and 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:18.840 had searched, and they were, you know, known Taliban. 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:22.560 Had found sniper rifles, they'd found IID making material, So 0:21:23.760 --> 0:21:26.399 I believe it was a very scary place to be. 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:29.480 Brendan Vaughan, who wrote the. 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:33.040 GQ piece on Bails, also draws a distinction between something 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:36.560 like Ceeney Hook and the Kanahar massacre, but only up 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:37.240 to a point. 0:21:38.200 --> 0:21:43.480 The context is certainly different. Is it any less bad. No, 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:45.920 is it different? 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:50.479 Yes, the setting is completely different. 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:53.040 What he was out doing. 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:54.600 On control on a regular basis. 0:21:55.040 --> 0:21:58.840 The difference between that and what the Aurora shooter and 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:02.000 other school shooters are doing in their daily lives. But 0:22:03.040 --> 0:22:05.840 I don't think that makes what Bails did any less 0:22:06.200 --> 0:22:09.600 of a murder that's worthy of the exact same punishment 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:11.000 as a school shooter. 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:15.920 When faced with this comparison, Bob's friend David Wesley focused 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:19.240 more on the public response to racially motivated shooting some 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:21.720 places like South Carolina in Buffalo, New York. 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:26.800 So Bob went out and he killed some Afghani people. 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:31.840 This man in Buffalo, legit, went and did a recon 0:22:32.480 --> 0:22:37.439 talked to a guy video teamed, then came back and 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:41.120 killed those people solely because they were black. 0:22:42.440 --> 0:22:44.960 I haven't heard the local. 0:22:44.640 --> 0:22:46.480 Media called for his death. Yet. 0:22:48.040 --> 0:22:51.080 What I did hear was they say that he was sick. 0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:55.639 What I did hear about Dylan Ruth when he killed 0:22:55.720 --> 0:22:59.840 nine black individuals, that he had mental problems, that he. 0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:03.240 Was a lo This isn't Buffalo. 0:23:04.200 --> 0:23:07.920 This is not one rogue man that just couldn't fit 0:23:07.960 --> 0:23:09.640 in a society that business. 0:23:10.960 --> 0:23:11.120 Right. 0:23:11.160 --> 0:23:13.800 This was a well trained soldier that had gotten broken. 0:23:14.640 --> 0:23:17.680 I don't know the circumstances of what made Bob duty did. 0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:22.719