WEBVTT - Ché Ahn - Oct 28 - 9:00 am 0:00:00.150 --> 0:00:03.100 They usually had some drugs in their desk. And so 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:05.160 I went in there and I took some and it 0:00:05.500 --> 0:00:09.480 ended up being pure PCP. So it's through that that 0:00:09.539 --> 0:00:12.340 I had the near-death experience. Next thing I knew, I 0:00:12.500 --> 0:00:14.920 was coming in the presence of this white light. And 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:18.959 I just knew instinctively it was Jesus. And he showed 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:19.600 me my life. 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:22.920 Even right now, there are people who are listening or watching. 0:00:23.820 --> 0:00:26.419 And I just have this sense that some of them 0:00:26.579 --> 0:00:31.010 are even asking the question, what is my identity, or 0:00:31.310 --> 0:00:34.190 I don't quite understand my sexuality, or I'm not sure 0:00:34.250 --> 0:00:37.810 if I'm heterosexual or homosexual, or I do identify as 0:00:37.870 --> 0:00:40.170 this or that. And I just feel like there's a 0:00:40.190 --> 0:00:44.029 lot of confusion, especially nowadays, over sexuality, over identity. 0:00:44.650 --> 0:00:48.690 Parts of us get saved at different times of our personality, right? 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:52.380 Some parts are better left untouched and in my past. 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:56.440 But the Lord eventually will say, you know what? I 0:00:56.480 --> 0:00:59.240 want to come in there. and heal that part. Do 0:00:59.260 --> 0:01:01.460 you sort of shove that aside as a memory you 0:01:01.500 --> 0:01:03.950 just don't want to deal with anymore? I actually want 0:01:03.970 --> 0:01:04.810 to redeem that. 0:01:05.290 --> 0:01:08.610 Hey everyone, welcome to the Honest Podcast. Our main goal 0:01:08.650 --> 0:01:11.649 here is to reach and impact as many people as possible. 0:01:11.790 --> 0:01:16.030 So please like, subscribe, but most importantly, share this with 0:01:16.090 --> 0:01:18.959 as many people as you can who you think it'll encourage. 0:01:19.060 --> 0:01:46.810 We greatly appreciate it. And now onto the show. Jonathan Hunter. 0:01:47.770 --> 0:01:48.809 Gabe on. 0:01:48.870 --> 0:01:50.450 So good to be with you. Cheers. 0:01:50.470 --> 0:01:54.490 Thank you. And you too. Honestly speaking, there's no liquor 0:01:54.550 --> 0:01:56.630 in here, I hope. Oh, no, no. 0:01:57.570 --> 0:02:00.830 Unless he turned the water into wine, then you're good 0:02:00.850 --> 0:02:02.790 to go. So good. 0:02:02.810 --> 0:02:03.950 Coffee. 0:02:04.220 --> 0:02:08.079 First and foremost, I know your birthday's in June, but 0:02:08.100 --> 0:02:09.720 you're 75 years old. 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:11.239 I am. That's when we speak. 0:02:11.260 --> 0:02:14.660 You are three-fourths of your way to your centennial birthday. 0:02:15.590 --> 0:02:19.620 Okay, that is, you know, if I had my preferences, 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:24.190 I'd leave a little earlier than reaching the centennial. But yes. 0:02:24.669 --> 0:02:25.410 Congratulations. 0:02:25.430 --> 0:02:26.310 Thank you. Thank you. 0:02:26.330 --> 0:02:28.110 So 75 years of being alive. Yes. 45 years of 0:02:28.150 --> 0:02:29.030 being alive, alive. 0:02:29.050 --> 0:02:34.440 Yes. Uh, yes, that's true. 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:36.570 Because of your salvation. We're going to talk a little 0:02:36.590 --> 0:02:37.630 bit about your story. 0:02:37.650 --> 0:02:41.589 You're an amazing study there. You took all the information 0:02:41.630 --> 0:02:42.709 that I gave you. 0:02:42.730 --> 0:02:47.010 I'm reading off my hand. Okay. So there's so much 0:02:47.060 --> 0:02:49.200 to talk about. And first of all, it's an honor 0:02:49.220 --> 0:02:49.760 to have you. 0:02:49.780 --> 0:02:50.500 Oh, thank you. 0:02:50.660 --> 0:02:54.000 And I so respect what you do. I respect the 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:56.260 call of God in your life, the gifting that you carry, 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:59.310 the people that have been transformed and are still being 0:02:59.350 --> 0:03:01.720 transformed because of the call of God in your life 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:04.739 is just so amazing. But, um, if we can just 0:03:04.780 --> 0:03:07.080 jump right in because there's so much that we can 0:03:07.139 --> 0:03:10.240 talk about and we'll hopefully talk about, but let's talk 0:03:10.300 --> 0:03:15.500 about 45 years ago, roughly with your near death experience. 0:03:15.710 --> 0:03:19.590 I mean, your life came out of it, but there 0:03:19.630 --> 0:03:23.209 was a drug overdose. Is that what happened? Can you 0:03:23.230 --> 0:03:24.810 walk us through a little bit of what was going 0:03:24.830 --> 0:03:25.669 on around that time? 0:03:25.770 --> 0:03:28.940 Well, through the seventies, I was an actor, a professional actor. And, uh, 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:33.960 And got into drugs like so many, recreational drugs. And 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:36.870 it was in 1979. It was at a friend's house. 0:03:36.940 --> 0:03:40.750 And they weren't there doing laundry at their house. And 0:03:40.830 --> 0:03:44.310 I knew that they usually had some drugs in their desk. 0:03:44.710 --> 0:03:46.470 And so I went in there and I took some 0:03:46.530 --> 0:03:50.570 and I snorted it. And it ended up being pure PCP. 0:03:51.860 --> 0:03:56.140 And so it's through that that I had the near-death experience. 0:03:56.520 --> 0:03:59.660 I Um, next thing I knew I was coming in 0:03:59.710 --> 0:04:02.390 the presence of this white light and I just knew 0:04:02.470 --> 0:04:06.830 instinctively was Jesus though. I was not born again. And, um, 0:04:07.610 --> 0:04:10.970 he showed me my life, uh, without going into the 0:04:11.030 --> 0:04:14.310 details of it beyond that. And anybody can see my 0:04:14.350 --> 0:04:18.710 testimony in YouTube, Jonathan Hunter near death experience. I think 0:04:18.750 --> 0:04:22.750 it's under that, but anyway, and coming out of that, 0:04:23.050 --> 0:04:28.540 my brother and his wife were Christians. recognized that I 0:04:28.570 --> 0:04:32.860 had had this encounter, you know, and they were thrilled 0:04:33.180 --> 0:04:35.640 that they had me back, but also that I was 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:39.080 exposed to Jesus because I wasn't searching him out. And 0:04:39.140 --> 0:04:42.719 so they ended up taking me to some churches and 0:04:43.060 --> 0:04:46.560 locally here. And I ended up being eventually at the 0:04:46.620 --> 0:04:51.240 Vineyard and Vineyard Christian Fellowship in Santa Monica that they 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:53.180 took me to. And it was through that church that 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:57.690 I was baptized in To be more exact, it was 0:04:57.770 --> 0:05:03.350 three months after the overdose that I called TBN one time, 0:05:03.670 --> 0:05:07.730 just out of curiosity, turned on the TV. And so 0:05:07.770 --> 0:05:11.740 I accepted the Lord through them. But I was baptized 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:14.520 in the Pacific Ocean through the vineyard a year to 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:18.540 the day of the drug overdose. Exactly one year later. 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:21.540 Was it planned? I mean, obviously, it just. 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:24.409 No, I was on the beach. Which is what they 0:05:24.430 --> 0:05:28.290 do out here in California. And I'm from the East Coast, Philadelphia. 0:05:28.330 --> 0:05:30.529 So all this is kind of new. Even the Vineyard, 0:05:30.870 --> 0:05:35.230 contemporary music, young people, pastor in a Hawaiian shirt, shorts 0:05:35.310 --> 0:05:38.530 and flip-flops, Ken Gullickson, he started the Vineyard. It was 0:05:38.589 --> 0:05:44.130 all very new to me, but I knew after the 0:05:44.230 --> 0:05:47.979 overdose and I recovered from that, when I went and 0:05:48.060 --> 0:05:52.490 came to this church with so much vibrancy, I wouldn't 0:05:52.529 --> 0:05:55.130 have said, oh, it's the Holy Spirit of Jesus. But 0:05:55.190 --> 0:05:58.310 I felt something in my being. I thought, oh, it 0:05:58.390 --> 0:06:03.180 is Jesus that I need to be pursuing. And so anyway, 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:05.159 everything sort of moved on from there. 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:07.820 What I love about what you just shared is that 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:12.360 before you knew God, I mean, you probably had some 0:06:12.460 --> 0:06:15.750 reference to him because of family or whatnot. But you 0:06:15.770 --> 0:06:18.510 were not at that point saved. You were, let's say, 0:06:18.650 --> 0:06:19.750 lost or searching. 0:06:20.050 --> 0:06:20.790 Oh, very much. 0:06:20.850 --> 0:06:21.510 In darkness. 0:06:21.770 --> 0:06:24.229 In darkness, in the gay lifestyle at that time. 0:06:24.390 --> 0:06:27.310 Yeah, we're going to talk about that too. But through 0:06:27.370 --> 0:06:32.650 this drug overdose and almost literally dying, you encounter him 0:06:32.830 --> 0:06:36.010 in that moment. And I love that because it's how 0:06:36.390 --> 0:06:39.710 good our father is, is that in our deepest, darkest place, 0:06:39.870 --> 0:06:42.690 even when we're doing something that we shouldn't do, he 0:06:42.730 --> 0:06:45.050 can still encounter us. And so you come to this 0:06:45.110 --> 0:06:48.450 place of realizing that you're in need of a savior. 0:06:48.710 --> 0:06:51.250 You get saved. A year later, you get baptized. You've 0:06:51.270 --> 0:06:54.510 been walking with the Lord ever since, again, about 45 years, 0:06:55.150 --> 0:06:59.480 which is incredible. But talk a little bit about your background. 0:06:59.500 --> 0:07:03.560 You just said gay background, homosexual background. I know that 0:07:03.980 --> 0:07:06.120 as part of your story, you were even labeled or 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:09.790 identified as a gay Christian. So one of the questions 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:13.320 I have, which maybe some people who are listening also 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:17.340 have this question is, can you be gay and still 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:20.500 be a Christian? And was that the case with you 0:07:21.220 --> 0:07:25.180 or was that just how you were labeled? Like if 0:07:25.220 --> 0:07:26.940 you could just kind of talk a little bit about that. 0:07:27.100 --> 0:07:31.790 Because I had come to identify myself as gay and 0:07:31.810 --> 0:07:34.930 that didn't happen until I was 25 and I moved 0:07:35.010 --> 0:07:39.210 out to California. I'd had some same-sex experiences prior to 0:07:39.270 --> 0:07:42.110 that when I was living in New York and doing 0:07:42.170 --> 0:07:44.850 play there and everything and on the side, but I 0:07:44.910 --> 0:07:47.830 would never have called myself gay back then. That just 0:07:47.890 --> 0:07:51.110 wasn't the atmosphere. But when I came out to California, 0:07:51.130 --> 0:07:55.180 I was sort of introduced to a gay community, if 0:07:55.220 --> 0:07:59.580 you will, fresh start. And so I'd come to identify 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:02.700 myself as gay, then had this near-death experience. And as 0:08:02.740 --> 0:08:06.040 you said, the graciousness of the Lord that he would 0:08:06.140 --> 0:08:09.840 even receive me and show me my life in this 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:13.100 heavenly place. I didn't go into paradise, didn't see any 0:08:13.140 --> 0:08:16.620 people that had died before me. But he was so 0:08:16.660 --> 0:08:20.740 gracious there. And then showing me my life, I perceiving 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:24.120 it as all destructive, and then allowing me to go back, 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:30.080 recover and choose him. So it was such a powerful experience. Again, 0:08:30.140 --> 0:08:33.089 I came to the Lord, I accepted the Lord, was baptized. 0:08:33.710 --> 0:08:38.590 but all the emotional issues, the emotional brokenness that got 0:08:38.630 --> 0:08:43.670 me into same-sex experiences and also sleeping with women too. 0:08:44.210 --> 0:08:49.320 I had tried to find my identity before through sleeping with, 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:54.220 having relationships with other people. I wanted them to help me, 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:58.120 tell me who I was as a man, as a partner, 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:02.020 whatever it may be. And of course they couldn't. So 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:06.610 I'm now a Christian after this drug overdose and accepting 0:09:06.650 --> 0:09:11.949 the Lord. And just the Lord slowly brought conviction. I 0:09:12.210 --> 0:09:15.569 identified as a gay Christian because I still didn't get 0:09:15.630 --> 0:09:20.650 an answer in coming to him about all the emotional 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:25.670 slash sexual attraction that I had. I didn't have the healing, 0:09:25.750 --> 0:09:30.440 yet the perspective as somebody being restored or sanctified of 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:33.780 looking on, oh, I know why I did that, why 0:09:33.860 --> 0:09:36.860 I engaged in that. And my brokenness, I was trying 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:40.000 to find out who I was through joining with, oh, yeah, 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:43.530 that didn't come till later. But there was a reckoning 0:09:43.570 --> 0:09:49.170 with the Lord and remaining abstinent as a Christian where 0:09:49.190 --> 0:09:52.890 the Lord started working on me and showing me in 0:09:52.950 --> 0:09:57.720 effect saying, Jonathan, you've wanted to find out, be intimate 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:00.200 with all these other people. I want you to be 0:10:00.260 --> 0:10:05.939 intimate with me. You need to know me, the main man, God, 0:10:06.700 --> 0:10:11.050 in your life. You don't know me. And so Christ 0:10:11.150 --> 0:10:16.530 in me, with the Holy Spirit, with him, I was 0:10:16.690 --> 0:10:21.550 able to remain celibate. that I've been very promiscuous. And 0:10:21.650 --> 0:10:25.570 in that process, during that time period, after I accepted 0:10:25.630 --> 0:10:32.380 Christ in 1980, I was baptized, it was about two 0:10:32.410 --> 0:10:36.199 and a half years later that I encountered Andrew Comiskey 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:41.679 at that same Vineyard Church. I've been traveling all around, acting, modeling, 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:45.170 and everything. In the meantime, I encountered Andrew, and he 0:10:45.230 --> 0:10:49.069 had this program called Living Waters, Sexual and Relational Wholeness 0:10:49.450 --> 0:10:53.690 with Christ. And so it was attending that workshop after 0:10:53.770 --> 0:10:57.330 I encountered him in the lobby. I was a usher, 0:10:57.390 --> 0:11:00.349 I think, at the vineyard at that time. And I 0:11:00.350 --> 0:11:03.150 just shared my testimony. He goes, wow, you've really been 0:11:03.250 --> 0:11:06.480 on a journey by yourself. And maybe you'd like to 0:11:06.550 --> 0:11:10.900 join us and see what the Lord reveals about really 0:11:11.020 --> 0:11:14.170 how you came to be or to think you were 0:11:14.270 --> 0:11:19.320 what you were. And I said, okay, great. And I thought, well, 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:21.660 how many people am I going to see in this 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:27.450 class besides me? I mean, the narcissist in me thought, 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:31.050 I had this near-death experience, and I was gay, and everything. 0:11:31.110 --> 0:11:34.350 So You know, who else has an experience like that? Well, 0:11:34.370 --> 0:11:38.010 there were 40 people in the class. Wow. Yeah, there 0:11:38.030 --> 0:11:41.350 were 40 people, men and women, who were all there 0:11:41.510 --> 0:11:46.850 seeking transformation and the restoration of their true personhood. And 0:11:46.929 --> 0:11:50.550 that entailed over the 18 weeks, which is now 20 0:11:50.550 --> 0:11:55.110 weeks long, Living Waters program, it entailed really allowing the 0:11:55.170 --> 0:11:59.730 Lord or opening oneself up and allowing Him to expose 0:12:00.390 --> 0:12:06.290 the brokenness and the pain and the often sinful reactions 0:12:06.870 --> 0:12:09.960 to that and the choices I made as an adult. 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:13.480 So it was transformational for me. I mean, I became 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:19.450 so excited that I started talking to old gay friends 0:12:20.210 --> 0:12:25.250 and saying, Jesus is amazing. I'm on this journey now, 0:12:25.330 --> 0:12:29.209 and I realize that's not my identity. My sexuality is 0:12:29.270 --> 0:12:35.000 not my identity, my sexual urges. It's my relationship with him. 0:12:35.340 --> 0:12:35.770 So good. 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:39.680 He's so patient, if you will. Yes. Because he wants 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:43.660 us to be restored and his image restored in us. 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:45.480 So he's long-suffering. 0:12:45.740 --> 0:12:48.200 It's so good, Jonathan. And if I could just pause 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:50.660 really quick, I just felt led by the Holy Spirit 0:12:50.700 --> 0:12:53.910 as you were sharing that. even right now, there are 0:12:53.950 --> 0:12:57.250 people who are listening or watching. And I just have 0:12:57.290 --> 0:13:00.630 this sense that some of them are even asking the question, 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:05.980 what is my identity? Or I don't quite understand my sexuality, 0:13:06.100 --> 0:13:09.080 or I'm not sure if I'm heterosexual or homosexual, or 0:13:09.100 --> 0:13:12.260 I do identify as this or that. And I just 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:15.859 feel like there's a lot of confusion, especially nowadays over sexuality, 0:13:15.940 --> 0:13:20.320 over identity. And so is there any truth? I know 0:13:20.340 --> 0:13:23.949 you've already mentioned it about that your sexuality in and 0:13:23.990 --> 0:13:28.370 of itself does not define necessarily your identity, but our 0:13:28.429 --> 0:13:32.950 identity is really grounded and defined by our relationship with Jesus. Yes. 0:13:33.890 --> 0:13:37.210 And so, but because there's so much confusion and there's 0:13:37.250 --> 0:13:40.089 so much discussion and there's so much controversy, even from 0:13:40.130 --> 0:13:43.050 a political standpoint nowadays, and we'll talk a little bit 0:13:43.110 --> 0:13:46.350 about how you launched your ministry out of your experience 0:13:46.410 --> 0:13:47.670 being in living waters yourself. 0:13:47.690 --> 0:13:48.270 Right, right. 0:13:48.309 --> 0:13:51.199 Of course, which is an amazing testimony in and of itself, 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:54.610 but Is there anything that you can give people in 0:13:54.660 --> 0:13:58.450 terms of those who are confused about their sexuality or 0:13:58.510 --> 0:14:03.870 confused about their identity? And I even alluded to this earlier, 0:14:04.429 --> 0:14:07.720 can you be a Christian? Can you have a relationship 0:14:08.270 --> 0:14:11.240 if you're still drawn to the same sex? I have 0:14:11.260 --> 0:14:12.900 my own opinion about that, but I kind of want 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:15.760 to hear yours. And I think there's a difference also 0:14:15.820 --> 0:14:20.380 between acting out those urges through sin, just like as 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:23.710 a heterosexual male, I can act out my flesh. I 0:14:23.750 --> 0:14:26.490 can act out my urges. If I really wanted to, 0:14:26.550 --> 0:14:30.090 I could. I'm married, but I can make the choice 0:14:30.170 --> 0:14:33.090 to sin. I can make the choice to commit adultery. 0:14:33.430 --> 0:14:35.310 I haven't done that. And by the grace of God, 0:14:35.330 --> 0:14:39.550 I will never do that. But even from a homosexual 0:14:39.670 --> 0:14:44.070 standpoint or someone who identifies as a same-sex attracted person, 0:14:44.090 --> 0:14:48.080 male or female, can you still, without acting on those urges, 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:50.910 without falling into sin, can you still be a Christian? 0:14:51.230 --> 0:14:52.850 That's one of the questions I have. I know I 0:14:52.870 --> 0:14:54.770 asked you a bunch of stuff just now, but any 0:14:54.810 --> 0:14:56.770 thoughts regarding any of those things? 0:14:57.370 --> 0:15:02.050 I would say that, yes, the Lord meets you and 0:15:02.150 --> 0:15:06.940 works with you and is your advocate in the place where, 0:15:07.340 --> 0:15:10.460 in the understanding that you have. I would say to 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:17.000 somebody who's wanting to remain in a same-sex, let's just 0:15:17.020 --> 0:15:23.180 say a same-sex relationship, because they think then apart from that, oh, 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:26.720 there's nothing there, I just have to remain celibate. There's 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:30.820 almost a soberness that we wanna have with Jesus with 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:35.240 regard to that, to our sexual urges and our attractions. 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:38.600 When we come to him, what are we coming to 0:15:38.660 --> 0:15:43.740 him for? Just salvation and that's it? Or do we 0:15:43.820 --> 0:15:48.890 wanna walk with him and be transformed into his image 0:15:48.950 --> 0:15:53.430 with ever-increasing glory, as it says in the scriptures. I 0:15:53.490 --> 0:15:58.710 say to people, Jesus is about transformation, not as Pastor 0:15:58.750 --> 0:16:03.750 Jack Hayford, the late Jack Hayford said regarding Jesus. He said, 0:16:03.790 --> 0:16:08.330 God's love isn't some heavenly syrup that he just pours 0:16:08.450 --> 0:16:11.340 over everything to sweeten it up. And I would say 0:16:11.500 --> 0:16:15.080 that he would pour over a same-sex relationship to sweeten 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:18.720 it up. That's his love. No, his love is strong. 0:16:19.420 --> 0:16:23.570 And also it's because it's a relationship we have with 0:16:23.610 --> 0:16:29.230 the living God. He's asking us to, he'll give us 0:16:29.310 --> 0:16:34.130 the strength to resist, but to step forward and follow 0:16:34.350 --> 0:16:40.229 him unto our destiny and There's something much bigger going 0:16:40.390 --> 0:16:44.130 on in you than you know. And so I would 0:16:44.220 --> 0:16:49.140 say that God has much more for you than this 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:54.560 present very affectionate same-sex relationship you have. It's beyond that. 0:16:55.100 --> 0:16:59.979 Everything about really being transformed about Jesus is really taking 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:04.090 the chance with the unseen God but entrusting in his 0:17:04.109 --> 0:17:08.750 indwelling spirit that he will bring it about. There's so 0:17:08.790 --> 0:17:13.740 many churches, though, and messages about the church and about 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:18.260 being a Christian that are anemic. So it doesn't matter 0:17:18.340 --> 0:17:23.480 if you're heterosexual or same-sex attracted or identify as homosexual, 0:17:24.100 --> 0:17:27.159 you know, there's a transformation going on in you too, 0:17:28.380 --> 0:17:29.260 whoever it is. 0:17:29.380 --> 0:17:29.560 Right. 0:17:29.930 --> 0:17:33.100 And so jumping into bed with somebody is not the answer. 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:37.560 That's the answer you tried to make out of it, right? Before, 0:17:37.580 --> 0:17:41.660 when you just identified with that, apart from Jesus. So 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:45.560 he's saying, put it on hold. It is remaining. All 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:51.180 of us need to be abstinent and see where Jesus 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:55.139 is leaving this relationship. I believe God's original will and 0:17:55.200 --> 0:18:00.320 intent is not that you eventually grow into a same-sex 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:04.840 attracted relationship or get married to somebody of the same sex. 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:08.920 It's much more. Will everyone go on to have a 0:18:08.980 --> 0:18:14.840 heterosexual marriage? No, I don't. I'm a celibate, but I 0:18:14.859 --> 0:18:17.420 have the gift of it through the Holy Spirit. And 0:18:17.460 --> 0:18:22.330 I'm great with it, right? But that's me. But he 0:18:22.410 --> 0:18:28.810 calls all of us to be abstinent when we first 0:18:28.869 --> 0:18:29.530 come to Him. 0:18:30.150 --> 0:18:36.450 That's right. Whether you identify as heterosexual or homosexual, it's 0:18:36.510 --> 0:18:40.070 the abstinence. It's the choice to remain pure. And going 0:18:40.109 --> 0:18:42.790 back to what you said is that our first love 0:18:42.830 --> 0:18:43.510 is to be Him. 0:18:44.030 --> 0:18:44.790 Yes. 0:18:44.950 --> 0:18:45.990 We are the bride of Christ. 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:46.889 Yes. 0:18:47.300 --> 0:18:50.199 And He wants to have that intimate relationship with us, 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:55.880 which also means that whether it's another person or another relationship, 0:18:56.369 --> 0:19:01.010 we should have no other gods besides him. Because our 0:19:01.030 --> 0:19:04.670 relationship can be with money. Our relationship could be with alcohol. 0:19:04.710 --> 0:19:09.590 It could be with anything that is sinful or not 0:19:10.109 --> 0:19:12.750 what the Bible calls us to live by or to 0:19:12.770 --> 0:19:16.610 walk in. So I know we're just scratching the surface 0:19:16.770 --> 0:19:18.850 and we can go into a deeper conversation, but I 0:19:18.910 --> 0:19:20.889 agree with you. First of all, who are we to judge? 0:19:21.410 --> 0:19:25.010 Every person has that, that, you know, has a journey 0:19:25.030 --> 0:19:27.879 with the Lord, I try my best just to respect 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:33.419 and honor that relationship and not try to judge, you know, 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:35.080 who am I, right? I know that there are things 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:37.900 in my own life, maybe unrelated to that, that I'm 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:40.720 still working on. I'm still being sanctified, right? Like you said, 0:19:40.770 --> 0:19:45.510 it's not just about salvation. It's the sanctification process, right? 0:19:45.590 --> 0:19:48.929 And so walking with God, not just, Jesus, thank you 0:19:48.950 --> 0:19:50.810 for saving me. Thank you for dying on the cross. 0:19:50.869 --> 0:19:54.590 But I want to live and walk out a victorious life. 0:19:54.790 --> 0:19:56.730 I want to live as Jesus lived. I want to 0:19:56.790 --> 0:19:58.800 walk as you walk. I want to talk as you talk. 0:19:59.300 --> 0:20:02.919 And so as we become more intimate with Jesus, the 0:20:02.980 --> 0:20:06.179 hope is that we also become more like him. 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:10.570 It's character development. Really, sanctification is character development. And that's 0:20:10.609 --> 0:20:12.930 something we're going to be going through our entire life 0:20:12.990 --> 0:20:17.720 here on earth, right? So parts of us get saved 0:20:17.820 --> 0:20:21.600 at different times of our personality, right? We have some 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:25.679 parts that we just didn't, you know, better left untouched 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:29.590 in my past. But the Lord eventually will say, you 0:20:29.650 --> 0:20:35.209 know what? Remember that relationship you had with that person 0:20:35.290 --> 0:20:40.560 who is, I don't know, or that abuse experience you had. 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:44.030 I want to come in there and heal that part. 0:20:44.050 --> 0:20:46.199 You sort of shoved that aside as a memory. You 0:20:46.220 --> 0:20:48.650 just don't want to deal with anymore. I actually want 0:20:48.670 --> 0:20:53.030 to redeem it for you. And that's being saved again, right? 0:20:53.050 --> 0:20:57.730 It's an aspect of our character. And so when talking 0:20:57.770 --> 0:21:02.390 to somebody, I say that who feels very, very rooted 0:21:02.570 --> 0:21:07.190 in their same sex relationship, I say, But there's so 0:21:07.250 --> 0:21:10.650 much more. Do you believe that Jesus is a transformer? 0:21:12.670 --> 0:21:15.080 The same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead? I mean, 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:16.860 is that the kind of church you're going to where 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:21.080 they're talking about a real relationship? But it's a relationship. 0:21:21.220 --> 0:21:25.500 It's always invitational on his part, right? It's like he's 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:29.580 waiting for us to come to him. He stands there, 0:21:29.660 --> 0:21:33.800 our faithful husband, if you will, our first mate, waiting 0:21:33.859 --> 0:21:38.950 for us to choose him. It's relational. And so I said, 0:21:39.109 --> 0:21:42.190 don't you want to go further? How do you know 0:21:42.310 --> 0:21:45.590 what your destiny is? If you've decided this is it, 0:21:45.869 --> 0:21:49.260 that's all I want. Well, he'll leave you there. He's 0:21:49.300 --> 0:21:52.720 still faithful. He'll wait. But if you don't want to 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:54.300 go any further, then you won't. 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:57.940 Right. We still have the freedom of choice. We still 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:00.640 have free will, which I believe is the greatest gift 0:22:01.090 --> 0:22:05.169 that we have. It is. Even a regular... relationship with 0:22:05.210 --> 0:22:08.360 the Lord, we still have to make the choice to 0:22:08.420 --> 0:22:10.159 follow him. We still have to make the choice to 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:13.480 say no to sin, even unrelated to the sexuality topic 0:22:13.500 --> 0:22:19.119 that we're talking about. But you're so right when you 0:22:19.160 --> 0:22:23.959 say he's waiting. He's always here. He's always available. His 0:22:24.060 --> 0:22:26.180 arms are always... It's the story of the prodigal son. 0:22:26.200 --> 0:22:30.000 He's always looking and waiting. And whether we make the 0:22:30.040 --> 0:22:32.699 choice or not, He's there and he loves us. And 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:35.220 in your case, he loved you. He saw you. He 0:22:35.300 --> 0:22:39.570 knew you and encountered you before you even had an 0:22:40.869 --> 0:22:44.410 understanding really of what a relationship with Jesus is all about. 0:22:44.650 --> 0:22:47.870 Not only did you get saved through, you know, your 0:22:47.950 --> 0:22:51.590 encounter with the Lord and, you know, now your soul 0:22:51.670 --> 0:22:56.520 is saved, but you've also had some physical battles in 0:22:56.540 --> 0:22:59.830 your life. Yeah. that the Lord has brought you through. 0:22:59.850 --> 0:23:05.649 I believe it's two bouts with cancer, pneumonia through AIDS, 0:23:05.950 --> 0:23:08.169 because you actually had that. So can you tell me 0:23:08.210 --> 0:23:12.700 a little bit about that journey and how... Then we'll 0:23:12.740 --> 0:23:14.700 talk a little bit about embracing life. 0:23:14.760 --> 0:23:19.880 Yeah, yeah. I discovered in 1985, I mean, I was fine. 0:23:20.400 --> 0:23:22.760 I'd been abstinent for a few years and I'd gone 0:23:22.780 --> 0:23:29.389 through living waters. And I was visiting... the brother of 0:23:29.470 --> 0:23:33.770 a former partner, male partner of mine. And he said, oh, 0:23:33.810 --> 0:23:36.170 my brother's in the hospital and he has AIDS, that 0:23:36.230 --> 0:23:39.190 new thing. And I knew him vaguely. And he said, 0:23:39.210 --> 0:23:41.409 and he's so scared about the flames of hell. And 0:23:41.430 --> 0:23:45.709 he goes, you're a Christian now. Obviously he wasn't. And 0:23:45.790 --> 0:23:47.709 he said, why don't you go there and maybe give 0:23:47.730 --> 0:23:50.470 him some hope? And I said, absolutely, I'll go. And 0:23:50.950 --> 0:23:53.489 so I went in and I ended up leading his 0:23:53.570 --> 0:23:58.580 brother to Christ. And I said, Jesus, you're all alone here. 0:23:58.600 --> 0:24:01.000 You have no friends around you. That was when everyone 0:24:01.060 --> 0:24:04.510 was fleeing from people who had it and he had it. 0:24:04.740 --> 0:24:08.000 He had the pneumonia, the AIDS cancer. And so he 0:24:08.040 --> 0:24:11.960 invited the Lord in and the Lord quelled the fears 0:24:12.010 --> 0:24:16.010 he had of hell and his brothers noticed it, did 0:24:16.050 --> 0:24:19.530 not come to Christ. But just to say that it 0:24:19.609 --> 0:24:24.220 was such a powerful witness of the presence of the Lord, 0:24:24.260 --> 0:24:27.880 I said, he will not desert you. The world may 0:24:27.940 --> 0:24:31.640 desert you, but at your bedside, he will stick with you. 0:24:31.660 --> 0:24:34.119 I said, I'd love to be able to visit you 0:24:34.160 --> 0:24:36.919 on a regular basis, Kimo, but I'm not around, I 0:24:36.960 --> 0:24:40.020