WEBVTT - Is Cold Fusion impossible? 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:12.200 Energy is everything. It powers our lives, propels our cars, 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:16.920 runs our massive data centers, our growing thirst for energy, 0:00:16.960 --> 0:00:20.680 influences politics, It alters the climate, It sparks conflicts, and 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:25.040 it constrains the future of our civilization. Energy is also 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:28.680 very personal. Our bodies are made of vibrating particles, which 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.720 themselves are pulses of energy and quantum fields. So everything 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:36.960 is energy. And for decades now, physics have been promising 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:41.000 to unleash the energy source of the stars. Fusion, the 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:43.839 thing that makes our sun glow, but brought down to 0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:48.720 Earth and mastered for our empire. So exciting and so 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:52.440 just around the corner. It's been twenty years away for 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:56.880 about eighty years now. So if hot fusion isn't just 0:00:57.000 --> 0:01:00.640 around the corner, is there another way? If we don't 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:04.040 need to replicate the conditions inside the sun, What if 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:07.560 we could do it all at room temperature? What is 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:10.760 the physics of cold fusion? Is it all just Charlatan's 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:14.480 nonsense or is there real science there? And if not, 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:18.240 why is DARPA funding it? We'll dig into all of 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:21.680 that today on Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe. 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:36.560 Who this is? Kelly Wintersmith? 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:39.560 I study parasites and space, and in Virginia right now, 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:43.160 it is so cold that your fingers fused to anything 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:44.720 you touched that is slightly wet. 0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:45.640 Hi. 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:49.960 I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and my wife's favorite 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:53.200 piece of physics is a terrible movie called Cold Fusion 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:57.040 starring Keanu Reeves wearing a University of Chicago sweatshirt. 0:01:57.360 --> 0:02:00.800 Ah. You know, my favorite movie is Keeves wearing anything, 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:02.000 because he's such a cutie. 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:04.680 That movie is so bad and so full of plot holes, 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:07.640 but Canna Reeves is great and he looks great in 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:10.119 that shirt, and hey, if he makes physicists look good 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:11.720 on the screen, I'm all for it. 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:12.519 Ah. 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:15.880 I've never seen that particular movie, but I'm not recommended. 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:18.320 Okay, all right, I'll skip that one. 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:20.760 But yeah, So today we're talking about Cold Fusion, which 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:23.400 I'm excited about because I was under the impression and 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:25.640 I'll lay it out there now. My impression is that 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:29.440 Cold Fusion is an absolutely never gonna work, almost on 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:32.600 the edge of conspiracy theory kind of thing, and that 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:35.440 is my preconceived notion. And when I was looking at 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:38.800 your outline, I was like, oh, maybe maybe I'm gonna 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:41.240 be wrong. This will be an interesting conversation. And then 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:42.239 I was like, you know what, I don't want to 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:44.120 root it. I'm not going to do my homework. I'm 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:46.840 not going to look at this outline anymore. And so 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:49.400 I stopped looking at the outline. And so here's what 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:51.160 I want to know from you today, Daniel. There are 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:54.639 lots of different routes that people talk about for how 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:56.920 we might make fusion work. Yeah, if you had to 0:02:56.919 --> 0:03:00.280 put your money on one route for how fusion might 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:04.200 eventually pan out as a way to run toasters, for example, 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:07.880 which route would you guess is the most likely to work? 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:09.400 And I'm going to guess it's not cold fusion. 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:12.200 No, how much of my money am I being forced 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:18.440 to invest in fusion in this ter Oh my gosh. 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:21.320 I think cold fusion is a dark horse there, and 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:24.239 I would not invest all of my family resources in it, 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:26.920 so I would have to go for some variant of 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:30.320 hot fusion. I think eventually we will make some kind 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:36.480 of magnetized fusion work, something like the Tokamax or eater. Eventually, 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:37.800 I think we will figure that out. 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:40.640 So you're betting against the many, many, many many lasers 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:41.440 all at once. 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:46.240 I am betting against. I love those and they're really fun, 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:48.520 and I want to flip that switch one time. I 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:51.280 imagine this like some really big, heavy red lever you 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:53.400 get to pull and it's really satisfying and then they 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:55.720 go zap. And I want to do that, But I 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:58.400 don't think that that's the most likely way to make energy. 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:00.640 Wouldn't it be disappointing if it was just like a 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:05.920 normal light switch or something, or a touchscreen button. 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:09.280 You know, I'm all about the tactile buttons. You know 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:11.360 it's going to give that haptic response, you know. 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:13.520 Yeah, No, I want it to be a big red 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:16.400 button that says lasers and you slam your hand down 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:17.200 on it or something. 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:20.760 All right, Well, today we're not here to talk about 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:23.560 Kelly's fantasies of pushing big red buttons, though I share 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:25.960 that with you. Have you ever visited cern in the 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:28.640 control room that have a big red emergency button and 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:31.000 it's so tempting when you're on shift you want to 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:33.719 press it. And then in the visitors lounge they have 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:35.960 a mock up of it that you can actually press 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:38.800 that like it turns lights that make sounds that it's 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:39.440 so fun. 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:43.120 That's awesome, But no, I haven't. My daughter's been discerned. 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:46.240 But yeah, you should come sometime. Anyway, we're not talking 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:48.880 about pressing red buttons today. We are talking about trying 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:53.279 to achieve cheap and plentiful energy here on Earth via fusion, 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:57.599 specifically cold fusion. Is it just a Ponzi scheme? Is 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:00.520 it real? Could it ever actually work? Was the question 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:03.359 we've posed to our listeners who volunteer for this audience 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:06.920 participation segment of the podcast. So think about it for 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:11.599 a moment. Do you think cold fusion is impossible? Here's 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:12.960 what people had to say. 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:19.039 Couldn't you select cold fusion as a power source in SimCity? Well, 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:22.159 then there you go. I guess it's possible, And to 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:26.400 Daniel's credit, you also then get alien invasions. So everybody wins. 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:29.400 I guess except for the Sims. 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:32.160 Cold fusions a lot. 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:34.880 Because of. 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:45.120 Sic it's a thing that we know, because we can't 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:46.880 do fusion. 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:49.080 Here, I wouldn't know. 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:51.680 No, I don't think it's impossible. 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:55.560 Only as a plot device in a subpart movie. 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:57.400 Nothing is unpossible. 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:01.760 I say so because I have a deep thing inhumanity's 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:05.839 ability to grow and progress using the scientific method. 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:10.200 I know there was a kerfuffle about this before, but 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:12.040 can't sabe. 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:16.039 I leastly remember hearing that cold fusion might be possible 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:19.080 inside a giant gold doughnut. 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:23.400 Cold fusion is absolutely possible if you stick your tongue 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:25.400 to a flagpole in the dead of winter. 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:30.599 I don't believe we should say impossible to anything. Someone 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:33.719 someday will figure out how to overcome that hurdle. It 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:36.479 probably is, but I'm ever the optimist. 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:39.600 If cold brewing coffee is possible, so. 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:40.599 Is cold fusion. 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:42.680 I would say never say never. 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:46.640 I think hot fusion requires high temperatures the same way 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:50.480 my golf game requires a very large number of strokes. 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:54.960 If I were better at it, I would need fewer attempts, 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:57.800 which is kind of the equivalent of lower temperatures. 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:01.240 I suspect that cold fusion is impots because in order 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:04.919 to fuse, the particles have to be moving very quickly, 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:08.080 meaning high energy, which means probably hot. 0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:11.119 I liked only as a plot device in a subpar movie. 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:17.040 That's Does that mean reality is a subpar movie? 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:18.200 Oh? 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:21.920 I mean it's a pretty pretty sub sub subpar movie. 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:26.600 If so, these were great answers I love that there 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:29.400 are people out there who believe, you know, the optimism 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:33.400 somebody someday will figure this out. It frustrates me that 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:36.280 cold fusion has been sort of polluted by a few 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:39.400 scam artists and bad experiences that the public had, so 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:42.840 it's seen as a totally disreputable line of research, even 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:46.120 though there are some possibilities there, as we'll talk about later. 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:48.120 Are we going to talk about those scam artists. 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:49.440 At some point? Oh, yes we are. We're going to 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:50.800 dig into the conspiracies. 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:53.440 Okay, good, because I think I've heard about those scam 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:56.400 artists mostly and that that's the news that's gotten to me. 0:07:56.440 --> 0:07:58.840 All right, So let's let's start at the beginning. What 0:07:59.040 --> 0:07:59.680 is fusion? 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:03.840 Yeah, so fusion is the opposite of fission. Right. So, fission, 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:06.600 what happens in most nuclear reactors that we have really 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:10.160 mastered and produces huge amounts of reliable, stable energy for 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:13.480 humans on Earth, is when you take heavy nuclei and 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:16.760 you split them up like uranium splits up into smaller, 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:21.000 lighter nuclei and produces energy. Fusion is the opposite. That's 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:24.320 when you take too light nuclei like hydrogen, The lightest 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:27.320 possible thing just protons, and you squeeze them together to 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:30.400 make something heavy like helium, and then you confuse helium 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:33.079 together to make something even heavier. So fusion is when 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:35.960 you stick stuff together. And the interesting thing is that 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:39.240 when you stick stuff together, it releases energy as long 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:42.120 as that stuff is lighter than iron. If it's heavier 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:45.679 than iron, then when you break it apart, it releases energy. Basically, 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:49.680 moving your nuclei closer to iron always releases energy. 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:50.960 Fun Kell effect. 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:55.319 I memorize the words fusion and fission like their definitions 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:58.560 in reverse initially, and then I was so worried I 0:08:58.640 --> 0:08:59.880 was going to get it wrong that there was like 0:08:59.880 --> 0:09:02.080 a solid year there where I would do everything I 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:04.520 could to avoid needing to say the words fusion or 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:07.240 fission for fear of getting it wrong. And then I 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:08.959 finally got it straight in my head. But now I'm 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:10.120 going to be worried that I'm going to get it 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:13.000 mixed up again. But anyway, it's an episode on fusion, 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:16.160 so I'm pretty safe if I say fusion, all right. 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:17.679 Well, should we have a buzzer if you ever get 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:18.080 it wrong? 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:19.120 No? 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:25.960 No, So most of the time fusion is hard to 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:30.000 do because protons are positively charged and they don't like 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:32.360 to be near each other, like they repel each other 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:36.679 very strongly. Right, electromagnetism is a powerful, powerful force, and 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:39.800 so making this happen is not easy, and yet it 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:43.200 happens a lot. Like our star is an enormous ball 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:46.040 of fusion. People say it's an enormous ball of fire. 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:49.120 That's kind of misleading because fire is combustion, which requires 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:51.960 oxygen and an atmosphere. The sun is not burning in 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:54.040 that sense. The sun is fusing. 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:55.960 Well, actually, well. 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:59.559 We actually, I mean to hear. Accuracy is our game, right, 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:03.560 that's right. I love when people write in and send 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:07.120 us well actually emails like I sincerely unironically love that. 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:11.199 Please do it. Yes, So we want to strive for 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:14.160 total accuracy here. And so what's happening in the sun 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:17.360 is that the sun is mostly protons, right, mostly hydrogen 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:20.520 ions and those refusing to make helium. And it's not 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:24.880 quite as direct as like two protons make one helium atom, 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:28.320 because helium also needs neutrons to be stable, because if 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:30.520 you just had two protons and the helium nucleus, it 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:33.120 wouldn't be stable. Those protons would bust each other apart 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:36.240 because of the strong Colombic repulsion there, and so you 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:39.160 need neutrons to like buffer them a little bit. So 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:44.240 to make one helium nucleus, you need four hydrogen protons. 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:47.959 They start with four protons, two of them convert into neutrons, 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:50.760 and you end up with helium four, which is two 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:53.839 protons and two neutrons. So that's the biggest process in 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:55.880 the sun, hydrogen burning and. 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:57.720 Does that release a lot of energy. 0:10:58.000 --> 0:10:59.839 That does release a lot of energy. It comes out 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:03.160 in terms of gamma rays, and there's neutrinos also. This 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:05.160 is why the Sun is like such a bright source 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:08.200 not just of light, but also of neutrinos. And neutrinos 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:12.120 are super cool because the Sun is mostly transparent to neutrinos. 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:14.679 So you make a neutrino in fusion, it flies out 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:16.640 of the sun. If you have a neutrino detector, you're 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:20.080 seeing that neutrino from inside the Sun. The Sun is 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:23.520 opaque to photons, so it makes photons when it fuses, 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:26.240 but those photons are absorbed and they just sort of 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:28.600 heat up the sun. And then the reason the sun 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:31.560 is bright in the sky, like why we see photons 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:34.160 from the Sun. It's not because you're seeing photons from 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:36.720 the fusion. You're seeing photons because the Sun is hot 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:39.400 and it's like a black body and it glows. So 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.600 here's another well actually moment for you. There's this bit 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:45.040 of pop side that says like it takes a photon 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:47.680 sixty thousand years to get from the center of the 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:50.160 Sun to the surface, which is like, I don't even 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:52.880 know what they're trying to calculate there. Photons don't go 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:54.480 from the center of the Sun to the surface. They 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:56.319 just like heat up the sun and then the sun 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:59.120 is hot, so it glows the way that like iron 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:02.920 in a furnaces, right, everything that's made of charged particles 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:07.240 and has a temperature glows. So there's your well actually moment. 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:09.319 We got to have a button for that too, or 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:11.280 at least a little like ticker thing to keep track. 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:16.640 Well actually, okay, And so when I first started hearing 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:19.000 about this, I felt a little confused about how you 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:22.200 go from that fact to running a toaster. 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:25.679 And so could you like make the little jump there 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:26.079 for us? 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:30.000 Oh? Yes, So fusion releases that energy right in terms 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:34.480 of photons or neutrons or gamma rays, all sorts. Of stuff, 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:36.640 and then you've got to capture it. So if you 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:39.360 wanted to build a device that would power your toaster, 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:43.680 you need to capture that energy and turn it into electricity. Right, 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:47.840 And so this is actually a big puzzle for fusion, 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:50.080 for like, even hot fusion. Even if we got like 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:52.640 fusion to work and some of the technologies we're going 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:54.920 to talk about later, people have not spent a lot 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:58.000 of time or enough time thinking about exactly how to 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:02.959 transform that gamma ray or that neutron into Kelly's toast. 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:04.080 This is important. 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:09.520 Yeah, yeah, so that's a hard problem. We'll get to 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:12.280 that in just a minute. First, we have to understand 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:15.280 the difference between the fusion reaction that happens in the 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:18.199 sun and the fusion reactions that we're trying to do 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:21.360 here on Earth, which are slightly different. And the reason 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:24.679 is that fusion is really hard to make happen. Like, 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:27.320 in order to get two protons to fuse together, you 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:29.920 have to squeeze them really hard because they don't want 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:34.120 to be together. So essentially fusion requires high density and 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:37.320 high temperature. You got to get those protons going really fast, 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:39.520 and you need a lot of them near each other 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:43.640 and even still in the Sun, fusion is rare. It's 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:46.800 not like fusion is happening all the time. Fusion is 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:49.400 not like a fire which will rapidly consume all of 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:52.640 its fuel. Even in the Sun with very high temperatures 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:55.360 and very high density, fusion is rare, which is why 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:57.680 the Sun is going to last for billions and billions 0:13:57.679 --> 0:13:59.880 of years, right. It doesn't just like all burn up 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:03.160 in an afternoon. And the rate of fusion is very 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:07.120 non linear with temperature. So like the hotter the star is, 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:09.960 the easier it is for it to make fusion happen, 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:13.559 the denser and the hotter it is. And so bigger stars, 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:16.480 which are hotter and denser at their core, have much 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:19.360 more fusion happening at their core. So like twice the 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:22.560 temperature doesn't mean twice the fusion. It's like four times 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:26.040 the fusion. It's something nonlinear. And so this is why 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:30.160 really big stars burn up much faster than really small stars, 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:32.800 because really small stars just have a little idy bit 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:36.080 of fusion. They're barely fusing, whereas big stars have a 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:39.600 much larger fraction of their fuel actually turning into fusion. 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:42.360 Like I say, i'd assumed, I mean I knew that, 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:44.280 but I guess I still assumed that fusion in our 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:47.000 sun wasn't rare because I still assumed it was happening 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:48.040 pretty darn off. 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:50.760 No, if you're a proton in the center of the sun, 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:53.680 you can go for billions of years without fusing with anybody. 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:56.560 Wow, yea lonely, I know exactly. 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:59.120 It's like Daniel wandering around a party and nobody will 0:14:59.120 --> 0:14:59.640 talk to him. 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:02.960 Oh, I would talk to you, Daniel, I would tell people. 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:04.640 I bet there's lots of people wanting to talk to 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:05.640 Daniel at parties. 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:10.920 And this is a self sustaining process, right, because the 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:14.160 heat from fusion keeps the sun hot, keeps the core hot. 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:17.320 And this is what we call ignition, when the conditions 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:20.880 created by fusion make it favorable for fusion. And this 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:23.480 is exactly what we want to achieve here on Earth, right. 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:27.200 We want to have fusion, not just like once or twice. 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:30.720 We want fusion to happen often enough that the heat 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:33.560 produced by fusion heats up the whole system and then 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:36.120 makes fusion more likely, and then it just runs on 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:38.200 its own. That's what we call ignition, sort of like 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:40.000 the way at a campfire you don't have to burn 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:43.000 every individual stick one at a time, right, Once stick 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:44.880 sets the next one on fire, which sets the next 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:46.680 one on fire. It's a chain reaction. 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:49.000 What is the other word that they're trying to achieve, 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:50.120 break either. 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:54.000 Break even? Yeah, exactly. It costs energy to get this 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:55.720 thing going, right. You got to heat this thing up, 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:58.160 you got to start it, and so you got to 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:00.680 put in a huge amount of energy to warm this 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:04.280 plasma up to create these conditions, and so what they 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:06.560 want is that you get more energy out than you 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:09.880 put in. Obviously, otherwise why are even building this reactor. 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:14.200 Okay, so we've hit ignition, but hitting break even is 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:14.880 much harder. 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:17.320 So that's a little complicated. We'll talk about it in 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:19.760 a minute. There's two ways to do fusion. There's the 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:22.160 lasers and the magnets, And the lasers claim to have 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:25.400 achieved ignition, which is cool, magnetized fusion, which has like 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:28.840 the plasma has not yet achieved ignition, but neither of 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:32.440 them have achieved break even, where they're generating more energy 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:35.200 than they put in. And there's always some like accounting 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:38.680 fuzziness there, like which energy do you account? Do you count? 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:41.160 Just the energy that directly landed on the fuel or 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:43.160 do you count like all the energy needed to run 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:46.600 the whole system. We'll get there, But here on Earth 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:49.760 we're not trying to replicate exactly the same reaction that 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:53.000 happens in the Sun because that requires really high density 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:56.120 and really high temperatures. And so here on Earth we 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:59.640 try to fuse deterium and tritium, which are particular is 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:03.080 it hopes of hydrogen. So deterium is a proton plus 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:06.800 a neutron, and tritium is a proton plus two neutrons, 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.119 and so these are advantageous because fusion can happen at 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:13.359 a lower temperature for deuterium and tritium than they can 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:16.080 for just like pure protons. So those are the ones 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:17.960 that we're trying to achieve here on Earth. 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:21.920 And you led an absolutely fascinating episode on whether or 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:24.720 not we have enough touterium and tritium on Earth to 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:28.600 be able to power the whole Earth using fusion. So 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.640 listeners should go back and listen to that again because 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:34.000 I remember thinking that that was like totally fascinating, all 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:35.679 kinds of stuff that I didn't know before. 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:39.119 So I'm going to hit the daniels An awesome button. 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:42.960 Daniel is awesome, and. 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:44.919 I love that we're making a bunch of work for 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:47.520 our amazing audio engineer because I think every time we've 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:50.720 mentioned a button, our audio engineer probably is going to 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:51.760 come up with a different button. 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:52.160 Sound. 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:53.040 Thanks, Matt. 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:56.840 Very cool. And so to answer the question you asked earlier, 0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:59.560 like how do we use this energy and actually turn 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:02.280 it into two? Well, depends a lot on the fuel 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:05.880 that we're using, Like, for example, if you have helium three, 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:09.400 then your fusion doesn't produce neutrons, and so the output 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:12.439 of the reaction depends on exactly the fusion you're making. 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:15.800 The reactions we're making, like magnetized fusion, do tend to 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:18.359 produce a lot of neutrons, and so people are working 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:21.359 on like how do you take these neutrons and turn 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:24.159 them into electricity? And the idea is to have like 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:28.240 a lithium blanket, like to wrap your reactor in lithium, 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:31.280 and because what happens when you hit the lithium blanket 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:34.360 with these high speed neutrons is it turns the lithium 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:37.480 into tritium, which is fuel for your reactor, plus a 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:40.520 bunch of photons, which are basically heat which then you 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:42.920 can use to heat up steam and turn a turbine 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:45.480 and create electricity for your toast. 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:48.359 Oh yay, And I hope there's avocado on the toast. 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:52.359 Yes, and maybe we can even grow those avocados using 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:54.399 heat lamps powered by the fusion. 0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:56.280 And when we get back, we're going to go into 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.080 more detail about how exactly we are trying to do 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:01.680 hot fusion and back here on Earth. 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:23.359 And we're back and we are. 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:26.040 Talking about ways that we do hot fusion because we 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:28.040 don't have the benefit of being as hot as the 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:30.840 Sun here on Earth. And actually that's probably great because 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:33.800 I really like being alive. And so Daniel, how do 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:36.000 we try doing fusion here on the Earth. 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:38.679 So one's strategy for the hot form of fusion is 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:42.160 to try to replicate the Sun as much as possible, right, So, 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:46.240 unfortunately we don't have the Sun's massive gravity, which self 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:49.040 contains the fusion reaction over there in the center of 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:52.560 the Solar system. So instead we try to use magnets. Essentially, 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:55.399 this strategy is make a little magnetic bottle try to 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:58.480 contain the reaction because the reaction would be so hot 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:00.400 that like any other device you put it in, would 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:02.639 melt it, so you need some way to hold it 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:05.680 together kind of without touching it. And so a magnetic 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:09.040 bottle is very cool. And a magnetic bottle works because 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:12.439 the plasma you need for fusion is charged. Right, you 0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:15.080 take a gas, you heat it up, it becomes charged particles. 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:18.760 And now you have another way to control those particles 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:22.360 because you can push and pull on them with electromagnetic fields. 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:25.360 So if you build magnetic fields in such a way 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:27.880 that charge particles are always bent, sort of the way 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:30.800 they are at a SuperCollider, then they just zoom around 0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:34.080