Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't stories of things we simply don't
Speaker 1: know the answer too. Hello everyone, and welcome back to
Speaker 1: another episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast. As always, I
Speaker 1: am Steve, joined by my favorite hosts. Yea favorite because
Speaker 1: there's no other. Okay, well, once again, as always, we
Speaker 1: have another mystery for you today, a really groovy mystery.
Speaker 1: It's a groovy mystery. It's got death and everything. This
Speaker 1: one was sent into us by Terry. She sent it
Speaker 1: to us on the Facebook page, So thank you Terry.
Speaker 1: Because what we're going to talk about today is a
Speaker 1: series of unsolved murders. Okay, well, the how is solved,
Speaker 1: the who and the why is not. And for anybody
Speaker 1: wasn't read the episode title, what we're gonna be talking
Speaker 1: about today are the Thailand all murders which happened in
Speaker 1: late September early October. So here's our story. On the
Speaker 1: morning of September twenty nine, twelve year old Mary Kellerman
Speaker 1: complained to her parents that she wasn't feeling so well.
Speaker 1: She had a sore throat. She died later that day.
Speaker 1: Sore throat. You're give me a minute, You're a little
Speaker 1: out of the game there, sir, I think that's a
Speaker 1: drink for all of our listeners who are yeah, you
Speaker 1: know they're blowing it up. Yeah, the okay, back to
Speaker 1: the story. Sorry. The same day, Adam Janie or Janis
Speaker 1: are not sure. Janice, who was supposed to worker, died
Speaker 1: of what appeared to be a massive heart attack. And
Speaker 1: he was like nine, right, Yeah, he was a young
Speaker 1: guy and his family, doing his family's will do they
Speaker 1: circled the wag and everybody gathered at his house for
Speaker 1: that that time of grief and go figure. A couple
Speaker 1: of them got headaches because well it's a stressful time.
Speaker 1: His brother and his sister in law both decided that
Speaker 1: they take something to take the edge off. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: they both died. His brother, whose name was Stanley, died
Speaker 1: that very same day, and his sister in law, Teresa,
Speaker 1: died two days later. Several days later, Mary McFarlane, Paula Prince,
Speaker 1: and Mary Reiner each died unexpectedly. None of these people
Speaker 1: knew each other. They didn't have anything in common. Well, okay,
Speaker 1: they had one thing in common. They had taken each
Speaker 1: prior to their death an extra strength Thailand. All Yeah.
Speaker 1: Mary Kellerman, the twelve year old girl, her parents because
Speaker 1: she had a sore throat, had given her an extra
Speaker 1: strength thailand All. I don't understand what this got to
Speaker 1: do with them dying how to die. No, I don't
Speaker 1: understand why anybody would like, first of all, give a
Speaker 1: twelve year old extra strength anything. But it was for
Speaker 1: a sore throat, like I think, I think that that
Speaker 1: wasn't her only symptom. I think that was the main time.
Speaker 1: Adam Janice had taken the extra strength thailand All just
Speaker 1: before he died, and his brother and sister in law
Speaker 1: had also taken pills from the same bottle. Turned out,
Speaker 1: each of these seven people had unknowingly consumed a pill
Speaker 1: that was laced with potassium cyanide. That's not great. It's
Speaker 1: not really something the body craves, not at all. It's
Speaker 1: it's extremely toxic to the human body. What potassium cyani
Speaker 1: does is it stops the tissues in your body from
Speaker 1: being able to take up the oxygen that's in your bloodstream,
Speaker 1: which means that you die from histotoxic hypoxia, which literally
Speaker 1: is your body cannot absorb the oxygen. It's a lethal
Speaker 1: dose of potassium cyanide is somewhere between two or three
Speaker 1: hundred milligrams, which is a really really small dosage if
Speaker 1: we try and put that into a frame of reference
Speaker 1: for people to you know, think about it an everyday scenario.
Speaker 1: Two d milligrams is about three to four grains of sugar.
Speaker 1: That's not a lot, So it doesn't take a lot
Speaker 1: of this stuff to kill you. Now, Once it was
Speaker 1: determined by the investigators that tailing All was the link
Speaker 1: between these people, panic broke out. People were throwing Thailand
Speaker 1: all the way, stores were yanking it off of the shelves.
Speaker 1: Johnson and Johnson who was the who is the parent
Speaker 1: company of McNeil Consumer Products who made tailent All at
Speaker 1: the time, And I honestly don't know if they're still
Speaker 1: the ones it well, but I mean McNeil Consumer Products
Speaker 1: was one who makes it, but I don't think they
Speaker 1: do it anymore. I'm guessing they were in full blown
Speaker 1: damage control mode trying to figure out what was going
Speaker 1: on and why their product was killing people and how
Speaker 1: this poison got into their pills. They quickly Johnson and
Speaker 1: Johnson quickly put out a statement saying that the poison
Speaker 1: could not have been put in the pills in their
Speaker 1: manufacturing process, and it had to have happened somewhere after
Speaker 1: the pills had left their hands. I think that's fair,
Speaker 1: it is, and they but they had they had great
Speaker 1: evidence because what they dis is they tracked the lot
Speaker 1: numbers on the medication, the lethal doses of medication, and
Speaker 1: they figured out that the lot numbers were from medication
Speaker 1: that was produced at two different plants, one in Puerto
Speaker 1: Rico and one in Pennsylvania. That would be really hard
Speaker 1: to have it introduced to the manufacturing level. And besides
Speaker 1: which that stuff would have wind up being distributed all
Speaker 1: over the place, not just northeast Chicago exactly exactly. Because yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's a good point, thank you, Joe. I don't
Speaker 1: know if I specified here that this is all happening
Speaker 1: in a suburb or a larger area of Chicago, kind
Speaker 1: of around where the O'Hare airport is now. There's a
Speaker 1: bunch of suburban areas, and that's where this is all happening.
Speaker 1: This is probably a good point to stop the story
Speaker 1: and explain something about Thailand. All for any of our
Speaker 1: listeners who aren't young enough to know this, like me,
Speaker 1: it's not just Thailand, all right, it's pills. Well, it's
Speaker 1: pills yes, it's pills in general, but this a lot
Speaker 1: of this is related to Thailand all a specific the
Speaker 1: theres seed a menafin is what they were using. Is
Speaker 1: there seeda menafin tablets or cablets I should say capsules
Speaker 1: capsules capsules. Today, when you go into the store and
Speaker 1: you buy any medicine and you look at the bottle,
Speaker 1: there's usually a couple of seals on the bottle. We're
Speaker 1: talking about over the counter medica. Over the counter medication
Speaker 1: usually usually the bottles in a box that's sealed, and
Speaker 1: then there's a right well and and and the I
Speaker 1: looked at the regulations on what has to have what,
Speaker 1: and it's really too boring to go into. But typically
Speaker 1: there's one to two layers of protection before you get
Speaker 1: to the box. But the point is when you buy
Speaker 1: over the counter medication now, typically there's some kind of
Speaker 1: plastic shrink wrap seal on the lid. Maybe it's got
Speaker 1: printing on it or perforations, so it's very obvious if
Speaker 1: it's been removed or messed with. And then when you
Speaker 1: open up the lid, there's some kind kind of seal
Speaker 1: on the top of the bottle which he has to
Speaker 1: get off, but it's you know, it's plastic or it's
Speaker 1: foil or paper or something like that. That is what
Speaker 1: we are used to. Didn't used to be that way
Speaker 1: because in the up until that point, a bottle of
Speaker 1: pills was sealed with the lid and you opened the
Speaker 1: lid and there's that silly piece of cottony material and
Speaker 1: that was it. Yeah, yeah, that sounds safe back in
Speaker 1: the days when they were it's psychos poisoning your pills. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think it speaks to some of the how naive
Speaker 1: industries were about people wanting to do harm to others
Speaker 1: via their products. People just didn't think it would would
Speaker 1: ever happen. People didn't do that kind of crap. Yeah,
Speaker 1: until this this came along, and now that now it happens.
Speaker 1: As we all know, there are copycats of this happens
Speaker 1: all the It's hard not the ideas out there. You
Speaker 1: pretty much have to seal everything you have to and
Speaker 1: and all of the products that we get now that
Speaker 1: are sealed they were. There was laws passed, ironically enough,
Speaker 1: called the Thailand All Bill, which requires that be put
Speaker 1: into place. We should also while we're talking about the medication,
Speaker 1: we should probably talk about the pills themselves. As we
Speaker 1: alluded to a little bit earlier, extra Strength Thailand all
Speaker 1: and a lot of other over the counter medication came
Speaker 1: in a capsule. It's not a solid pill, it's not
Speaker 1: a gel coded pill. It's not what we're used to now.
Speaker 1: It's like it's more like what you get vitamins, like
Speaker 1: specific vitamins and the days yea, and lots of stuff
Speaker 1: that comes in capsules. Still. Yeah, but it's it's not
Speaker 1: nearly as common as it is. But for anybody who
Speaker 1: doesn't know, it's it's two pieces that go together, almost
Speaker 1: like a Russian nesting doll. They fit together and they seal.
Speaker 1: I guess it's one inside the other the ends. They're
Speaker 1: very easy to pull open. And you guys know what
Speaker 1: these things are, yes, everybody, Yeah, well it They became
Speaker 1: super popular because they were easy to swallow, unlike like
Speaker 1: a dry as bird. Yeah. They're also you can a
Speaker 1: lot of help nuts these days. You know, you can
Speaker 1: fill your own capsules. You can just get whatever you want.
Speaker 1: And that is the achilles heel of the capsule when
Speaker 1: it comes to medication, is it can be opened in
Speaker 1: the medicine can be taken out or in this case
Speaker 1: added to exactly, which is a big problem. And that's
Speaker 1: the reason that a lot of things now or gel
Speaker 1: coats or whatever they are, so that these over the
Speaker 1: counter medications can't easily be tampered with. I think it
Speaker 1: also is worth noting that John's the way that Johnson
Speaker 1: and Johnson handled this whole thing. I don't know if
Speaker 1: we were going to talk about this or not, but
Speaker 1: it's been praised as pretty much one of the best
Speaker 1: corporation handlings of a huge disaster like this at all times,
Speaker 1: and so I think that's probably worth mentioning a little bit.
Speaker 1: Hill went really well, we will talk about it was
Speaker 1: kind of disaster to them. Oh yeah, you're at the
Speaker 1: same time. I mean, you know, I would I would
Speaker 1: be looking at this and they'd be saying, Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: pitching up my taile and all. And then and then
Speaker 1: I go to the store to buy some other pain reliever,
Speaker 1: and and I would say, no, Johnson and Johnson, But
Speaker 1: then I think to myself, well, what about the other manufacturers.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just exactly that's and that's that's the
Speaker 1: issue that we'll talk about in a bit here, because
Speaker 1: we're gonna get into some of that copycat stuff. But
Speaker 1: back to the story. So at this point in the
Speaker 1: story they figured out that thailand All is the culprit,
Speaker 1: and what we think is going was going on was
Speaker 1: someone was taking the bottles of extra strength thailand All,
Speaker 1: taking him out of the store, opening the capsules, adding
Speaker 1: the potassium cyanide to them on the order of magnitude
Speaker 1: of thousands of times a lethal dose. So this person
Speaker 1: was dumping a lot of that stuff in there, then
Speaker 1: putting them back together, putting them back in the bottle,
Speaker 1: and somehow getting the bottle back on the shelf for
Speaker 1: some other unsuspecting person to buy and consume. It wasn't
Speaker 1: just pills, for it wasn't just a capsule full of that.
Speaker 1: It also had a scene metaphine in it. I believe
Speaker 1: that based on the fact that it was you know,
Speaker 1: two is enough to kill you, and it was up
Speaker 1: to ten thousand times required dose, I have a feeling
Speaker 1: that it was probably no medication at all. Sides That
Speaker 1: would be my guest too, because I think a scene
Speaker 1: of meta few tailen All specifically is typically five hundred
Speaker 1: milligrams at least it is now. I don't know if
Speaker 1: it was then that's one of the differences between Thailand
Speaker 1: and appall. I don't know if you know this or not,
Speaker 1: but advill is two d and fifty milligrams a pill
Speaker 1: and thailan All is five typically, so you can take
Speaker 1: more advil in like a dose, you can better whatever.
Speaker 1: But anyways, I just thought i'd ask if it was
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that it was nothing, but science hard
Speaker 1: to get that much into a capsule. I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: that they were just dumping out all the medication. Probably
Speaker 1: why not go for the gusto. It's not like the
Speaker 1: person is going to taste it in their food or something,
Speaker 1: because it is a pill you just swallow. It's kind
Speaker 1: of surprising that they whoever was, managed to do all
Speaker 1: this without poisoning themselves. Yeah, they had to have some
Speaker 1: working knowledge of it. You've got to presume that they
Speaker 1: knew how to handle this substance without killing themselves away
Speaker 1: to get it or how to make it. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: and there's some of that as as you know we've
Speaker 1: been alluding to. We'll be getting into as always in
Speaker 1: the theories, of course. But the police in the FBI, Yeah,
Speaker 1: the FBI got involved, began collecting pain reliever from stores
Speaker 1: all over Chicago. Um. Now, because as we said, they
Speaker 1: were all in the same area of town. The investigators
Speaker 1: focused their first do you know what suburbs of Chicago names,
Speaker 1: the neighborhoods were there? There was five of them. It
Speaker 1: was elk Grove, Windfield, Arlington Heights, Elmhurst, and Lyle. Those
Speaker 1: were the neighborhoods or the suburbs where this happened. I
Speaker 1: like that you can actually pronounce Lyle, Lyle. There's a
Speaker 1: weird there's a weird ass in there. I don't know,
Speaker 1: It's fine, it doesn't matter. Yeah, okay, cool. So that's
Speaker 1: a good good thing to know. We don't know exactly
Speaker 1: how many bottles of this medicine were tainted. There was
Speaker 1: They found five stores that had tampered bottles, but I
Speaker 1: say we don't know the exact number because it's entirely
Speaker 1: possible that there were more, and people who bought them
Speaker 1: didn't end up taking them because they chucked them through
Speaker 1: this whole thing blew up. If they had held on
Speaker 1: to them, they could have sold them years later on eBay. Well,
Speaker 1: of course, because they knew eBay was coming. Uh. What
Speaker 1: what investigators had to do? And this had to be
Speaker 1: just a horrible job. Is once they had collected all
Speaker 1: of those bottles, they had to test the pills, and
Speaker 1: they had to test each one because it wasn't every
Speaker 1: pill in the bottle was poisoned. It was a handful
Speaker 1: of them were poisoned in there, which makes it a
Speaker 1: bit of a game of Russian roulette, like a literal
Speaker 1: game of Russian roulette. Yeah, exactly, if not with a gun,
Speaker 1: so sorry, with a bottle of pills that are going
Speaker 1: to kill you, yeah, or somebody. And so the Some
Speaker 1: of the bottles had just one pill, some of them
Speaker 1: had several. That's the way it worked. It was several
Speaker 1: per bottle, yes, and it seemed to have varied. Some
Speaker 1: would have two or three, some seemed to have five
Speaker 1: or six. The accounting, I mean, it's thirty some years later,
Speaker 1: it's been rewritten. As always, we find different interpretations of
Speaker 1: the numbers, so I'm not positive that's that's interesting about
Speaker 1: the case of one of the first ones who died,
Speaker 1: the girl. Now the second one, oh Adam Jess Janie,
Speaker 1: yeah or Janie his name was pronounced. It's kind of
Speaker 1: interesting that three pills came out of that bottle and
Speaker 1: all three of them were poisonous. It's possible that more
Speaker 1: than three pills came out of that bottle. It's possible
Speaker 1: because they weren't all tainted, that other people took the
Speaker 1: title at all and didn't suffer any el effects because
Speaker 1: they didn't get the poison pilluck out. Huh. Well, anyway,
Speaker 1: we can talk about that later. But well, no, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a great point. It's just they're
Speaker 1: not all gonna be poisoned. They were. That's a lot
Speaker 1: of poison for somebody to sit there and painstakingly scoop
Speaker 1: up and put into each pill, so it wouldn't be fun.
Speaker 1: That was Adam Jannis married, by the way, I do
Speaker 1: not believe he was, so it was just him. We
Speaker 1: talked about this a little bit before, but the copycat
Speaker 1: killings that happened because of this, this is another one
Speaker 1: of those things where the media actually mahade the problem
Speaker 1: worse because they told the world about this and exactly how,
Speaker 1: exactly how it happened. Every yo yo with a grudge
Speaker 1: poisoned pills. In the first month after this happened, two
Speaker 1: hundred seventy cases of tampering. Oh my gosh, it was.
Speaker 1: It was things as simple as somebody trying to kill
Speaker 1: their spouse A lot of them did, or somebody they
Speaker 1: didn't know, and then to cover their tracks, they all
Speaker 1: fell followed the same path. I've got to cover my path.
Speaker 1: So what do they do? They stick a bottle back
Speaker 1: on the shelf and kill some other unsuspecting poor schlab.
Speaker 1: It's a great way to cover your tracks, it is.
Speaker 1: But it's freak and terrible, is what it is. Obviously,
Speaker 1: murdering your spouse is kind of bad, too, ye, Murdering
Speaker 1: anybody is bad. It's kind of bad. A lot of
Speaker 1: these people, though, were not nearly as crafty about it
Speaker 1: in terms of covering their tracks, because a bunch of
Speaker 1: them got caught the Feds. They don't screw around about
Speaker 1: this anymore. The puzz that went into effect are so stern.
Speaker 1: There's a woman, what is her name, Stella Nickel. She
Speaker 1: poisoned Eccedrian capsules with cyanide and killed her husband, and
Speaker 1: then to again to cover her tracks, she poisoned some
Speaker 1: other pills and stuck him in the bottom, stuck him
Speaker 1: back on the shelf. She killed a woman named Susan
Speaker 1: Snow and for those two deaths. She was sentenced to
Speaker 1: ninety years in prison. Two people. Yea, she could potentially
Speaker 1: have killed a lot more. Yeah, No, it's I'm not
Speaker 1: I'm not questioning that sentence at all. It's just a
Speaker 1: great example of once they put that rule in effect,
Speaker 1: that they went after people like like a bulldog as
Speaker 1: well they should. Yeah, as Devin had talked about earlier,
Speaker 1: Johnson and Johnson through this whole thing came out like
Speaker 1: the shining star. They're they're referenced in business books and
Speaker 1: all this stuff about how to handle a consumer situation
Speaker 1: because they were the first to institute the packaging regulations
Speaker 1: on medication. Actually they did it before it became a regulation.
Speaker 1: They just started doing it. They willingly pulled their products
Speaker 1: from the shelves, They offered refunds, they pulled the hospitals
Speaker 1: loved to use thailan, especially extra strength thailand all and
Speaker 1: they yanked it all out of the hospitals willingly. They
Speaker 1: didn't have to at the time that they did it.
Speaker 1: Eventually the FDA came in and said, get that crap
Speaker 1: out of here, but they had already gotten it out
Speaker 1: of the stores and the hospitals. Um after things had
Speaker 1: settled down, and they went on a huge pr campaign.
Speaker 1: They offered coupons, they had refunded people already, they were
Speaker 1: they were advertising how they had all these protections on
Speaker 1: their pill bottles. In the end, one year after this happened,
Speaker 1: they had only lost ten percent of their market share
Speaker 1: and they were at the top to beginning now and
Speaker 1: as you know they are, they're still going strong now.
Speaker 1: But you know, I really, really it would have been
Speaker 1: right after this whole thing happened, you know, right after
Speaker 1: the whole they're pulling them off the shelves. You know,
Speaker 1: you know that James J. Stock had to be tanking.
Speaker 1: What a great time to buy Johnson and Johnson stock.
Speaker 1: It would have been, Well, when we go back in
Speaker 1: our time machine, that's what we'll do. But yeah, and
Speaker 1: that might be part of this. Maybe the guy that
Speaker 1: did this did it because he wanted to make their
Speaker 1: stock tanks so you could buy a bunch of it.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm not going to well, this is that we're
Speaker 1: at the theory. So that is a possible theory that
Speaker 1: somebody did it to tank their stock. According to Joe,
Speaker 1: Let's do you have any you want to flesh that
Speaker 1: outn't also just occurred to me just I would say
Speaker 1: that the yeah, it could have been a time traveler.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I would say that the FBI
Speaker 1: needs to go back and just interview every stockbroker who yeah,
Speaker 1: this sounds good. Our first theory, most of our theories
Speaker 1: are going to be about specific people. The first theory
Speaker 1: is about a guy named James Lewis, and James Lewis
Speaker 1: is the name that you're gonna see more often than
Speaker 1: not when you do any reading on this. The reason
Speaker 1: is is that he didn't do the smartest thing ever.
Speaker 1: When the story broke and everybody's freaking out, what does
Speaker 1: he do? He writes a letter to Johnson and Johnson
Speaker 1: requesting a million dollars to make the Kelly stop and
Speaker 1: by the way, don't bring the cops in, and then
Speaker 1: he signed his name to it, signed Bond. He didn't Joe,
Speaker 1: but Johnson and Johnson didn't play ball. They immediately turned
Speaker 1: over the letter to the authorities. I believe was the
Speaker 1: FBI who figured out from the postmark where he was.
Speaker 1: He was in New York and they went hunting for him. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: they also had connected him to another letter that they
Speaker 1: were looking into, which was a letter that he had
Speaker 1: sent to Reagan threatening the life of the president because
Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan was a president at the time. If Reagan
Speaker 1: didn't change the tax code, I probably should have sent
Speaker 1: that to Congress. Huh, because the tax showed Yeah, that
Speaker 1: that really makes sense. Well, Lewis and his wife, they
Speaker 1: were living in a hotel. I think it was a
Speaker 1: short term stay hotel kind of situation if I understand
Speaker 1: it correctly. Yeah, when they got wind or somehow they
Speaker 1: got wind that the FEDS were after him, and they
Speaker 1: went on the lamb because they didn't want to get arrested. Weird,
Speaker 1: I know, crazy, um Louis and his wife were on
Speaker 1: the lamb. Eventually a tip came in eight weeks after
Speaker 1: they disappeared and he was arrested. His wife shortly thereafter
Speaker 1: turned herself in, and of course the FBI went after
Speaker 1: him full force because they were sure that he was
Speaker 1: responsible for poisoning all of these people. In the end,
Speaker 1: the only thing they could pin on him was the
Speaker 1: extortion attempt a New York and not Chicago. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a very good point, and that does play into a
Speaker 1: lot of the stuff about him. But he got sentenced
Speaker 1: to twenty five years in prison. He served thirteen, but
Speaker 1: he did get a I don't remember exactly what the
Speaker 1: reason was he was parole, but he's a He's an
Speaker 1: elderly guy at this point, and I don't know that
Speaker 1: they thought he was a threat anymore. But he did
Speaker 1: serve time for the extortion a loan. They're still trying
Speaker 1: to hang the crime on him. They are because you know,
Speaker 1: guilty of one crime or one is good enough for
Speaker 1: the other. Right, No, no, it's not. Um. Here's the
Speaker 1: problems with Louis being the perpetrator of this entire thing.
Speaker 1: He was in New York. He was in New York.
Speaker 1: He would have had to have somehow gotten to Chicago
Speaker 1: to drop off all the poison pills. Well, we know
Speaker 1: from his wife's co workers that he showed up every
Speaker 1: day to have lunch with his wife for almost every day.
Speaker 1: They don't remember him missing hardly ever, and it wasn't
Speaker 1: ever a consecutive set of days. Now out thank you Google,
Speaker 1: I figured out it takes today twelve plus hours by
Speaker 1: car to drive from New York to Chicago by today's cars.
Speaker 1: By today's cars were much slower in those days, were
Speaker 1: they get like thirty Well, they were a little faster
Speaker 1: than that. But the point is that is a full
Speaker 1: twenty four hours of time just in driving, never mind
Speaker 1: having to stop sleep, eating, drop off the poison. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like smuggle them back onto the shelves exactly. He I
Speaker 1: mean he, Okay, he could have flown there, But if
Speaker 1: this guy's living in a short term s r oh
Speaker 1: kind of situation, I don't think he's got a lot
Speaker 1: of money for an airplane ticket. Plus at leads a
Speaker 1: huge paper trail. It could have been under a false name,
Speaker 1: but could they They probably it's probably too late to
Speaker 1: check on this. But of the batch numbers, yeah, before
Speaker 1: any of those distributed in New York, because that's odd
Speaker 1: actually where he would have had to buy them and
Speaker 1: tamper with them. He's not going to try to Chicago
Speaker 1: spend twenty four hours tampering with pills. I'm going to
Speaker 1: have to say, no, I don't think, because I would
Speaker 1: imagine that the Feds would have tracked that down and
Speaker 1: if there was anything link, they'd a slap the charges
Speaker 1: on him for it. I don't think so. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: doesn't make much. I know they're still interested in this
Speaker 1: guy as a suspect. Absolutely, and yeah, it's recently, is
Speaker 1: two thousand eleven. They collected DNA and fingerprints from him
Speaker 1: and his wife. They have buff gets, but they tried
Speaker 1: to track it, you know, to see if they could
Speaker 1: pin anything to him. Yeah, and there's they have nothing.
Speaker 1: Here's why I'm sure they're wrong about Lewis. What was
Speaker 1: this is that he didn't need he didn't need to
Speaker 1: really kill all these people to extore Johnson and Johnson.
Speaker 1: He could have tampered with pills, put them on shelves
Speaker 1: at stores, put them towards the back so they're not
Speaker 1: less likely to get. But then send your letter to
Speaker 1: Johnson and Johnson demanding a million dollars, telling him you
Speaker 1: know you sent me a million bucks, I'll tell you
Speaker 1: which stores have got poisonous tail and all the shows exactly. No,
Speaker 1: there was no need for him to actually and he
Speaker 1: didn't send his letter until everybody had died. Pretty much.
Speaker 1: His letter was a crime of opportunity. I mean, this guy,
Speaker 1: he was He ran scams, He did a lot of
Speaker 1: shady things to make a box. And I am pretty
Speaker 1: sure that that's the deal, is that it was another
Speaker 1: way for him. Hey, honey, maybe I can make a
Speaker 1: couple of bucks off. They may not give me the million,
Speaker 1: but maybe they'll give me something. Oh oops, I'm thirteen
Speaker 1: years later. I'm just getting out of jail. Work out
Speaker 1: so well for him. I really do think the fb
Speaker 1: I should stop wasting their time in this guy, though,
Speaker 1: I agree. Next up on our Theories slash suspect suspect list. Wow,
Speaker 1: that was a cool pronunciation. I have no idea. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the suct list. Yeah, yeah, I think I was trying
Speaker 1: to say suspect and unsub at the same time because
Speaker 1: I watched one of those TV shows that uses unsub
Speaker 1: all the time. Yeah. No, it's a terrible thing to say.
Speaker 1: But you're you know, you're not jerking my chin. No,
Speaker 1: I really don't. Um it's unknown subject unsub. It's a
Speaker 1: dumb thing. Okay, can we We're going to just leave
Speaker 1: that behind. Yes, please, Let's talk about our next crazy
Speaker 1: suspect yep, which is a lady by the name of
Speaker 1: Lori Dan. Here's her story. This is really tragic and
Speaker 1: sad is She was a woman who, on the of
Speaker 1: May seven, first tried to set up a firebomb in
Speaker 1: an elementary school, then set fire to the home of
Speaker 1: people who she baby sat for. By the way, the
Speaker 1: mom and the two kids were in the basement, though
Speaker 1: they did get out. How old is uh she was?
Speaker 1: I don't think. I think she was not quite thirty
Speaker 1: years old when that happened. What else did she do? Well,
Speaker 1: she went to an elementary school with guns. She shot
Speaker 1: and killed one boy and wounded several other children. She
Speaker 1: then left that school, talked her way into the house
Speaker 1: that was nearby, and then shot one of the people
Speaker 1: who lived there before everybody got out, and in the
Speaker 1: end she shot herself. That's quite the spree. It is
Speaker 1: the spree. And and well, okay, so this lady went
Speaker 1: on a spree. Why is everybody trying to pin this
Speaker 1: tragic story of her back to the titland five years later? Well,
Speaker 1: let's walk through the points of why it could be her,
Speaker 1: which is, first, she lived in the Chicago area at
Speaker 1: the time. She had tried to poison people before. And
Speaker 1: if we look at what she did on the day
Speaker 1: she died, she took snacks and juice boxes and laced
Speaker 1: them with arsenic and then some of them she mailed,
Speaker 1: something she had done several days prior to her spree,
Speaker 1: and mailed them to people. Others she delivered by hand,
Speaker 1: trying to poison these folks. It didn't kill anybody, thankfully,
Speaker 1: because the arsenic was so deluded and it tasted terrible
Speaker 1: that nobody would consume the entire cookie or juice or
Speaker 1: whatever it might have been that she poisoned. But I mean,
Speaker 1: not to speak ill of the dead, but this woman
Speaker 1: who obviously had a mental condition, and I'm not being rude,
Speaker 1: she did have a mental condition. She had some depression issues,
Speaker 1: there were some things going on. But I just don't
Speaker 1: see your organ being organized enough to have pulled off
Speaker 1: the thailand On murders. I mean, well, also, you know,
Speaker 1: she obviously knew how to make or procure or potassium cyanide.
Speaker 1: Why bottled with arsenic? Arsenick is not actually that effective,
Speaker 1: like a really weak dose of arsenic too, right, And
Speaker 1: and whoever did this, they were pretty slick on getting
Speaker 1: in and out of stores and nobody noticed anything was amiss.
Speaker 1: She was not that good with her product tampering. Because
Speaker 1: of the juice boxes, A bunch of people noticed that
Speaker 1: the corners were pulled up and they were leaking. So
Speaker 1: that's that's a giant problem obviously. I just I mean,
Speaker 1: everything she did called attention to what she did, and
Speaker 1: I just don't think she had the wherewithal to be
Speaker 1: sneaky enough to get away with it the in between
Speaker 1: the original poisonings and her crimes for here did she
Speaker 1: was she institutionalized for any like the time? I don't
Speaker 1: think she was. She she had been a lot of
Speaker 1: stuff that happened prior to her spree. She had been married,
Speaker 1: the marriage had fallen apart, she was in having a
Speaker 1: really rough time, But I don't remember her having been
Speaker 1: put into an institutional situation at all. Yeah, it just
Speaker 1: seems odd. That's if she would she like to poison people,
Speaker 1: that there'd be this five year gap between the original
Speaker 1: poisonings and then this crime spree. Yeah no, And it's
Speaker 1: being institutionalized would explain why there was a gap, But
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't remember seeing anything about her having
Speaker 1: been locked up. But we'll go on to our next suspect,
Speaker 1: which I'll be honest, this one's a bit of a
Speaker 1: kookie outlandish one, but that's the Yeah. HiT's the unit
Speaker 1: bomber ted Kazinski where uh in a prison? Uh? The
Speaker 1: FBI collected DNA evidence from Kazinski several years ago because
Speaker 1: they wanted to see if maybe he had been responsible
Speaker 1: for this. It's understandable in the late seventies early eighties
Speaker 1: he had been active in the Chicago area. I think
Speaker 1: he had done a couple of things, a couple of
Speaker 1: bombings or something like that. I can't remember what he
Speaker 1: did in the early eighties, but they knew that's where
Speaker 1: he was. Plus his family had a home in that area,
Speaker 1: so they checked him. His specialty was sending letter bombs
Speaker 1: to people. Yeah, I was gonna say it seems like
Speaker 1: the m O was a little different there. Well, and
Speaker 1: go figure. His DNA didn't match anything that they have,
Speaker 1: and as whatever they have, he also singled out specific
Speaker 1: people for his letter bombs for whatever reasons. Not that's
Speaker 1: not justifiable ones, obviously, but he didn't just necessarily kill
Speaker 1: people randomly. Yeah. Well, he vehemently denied that he was
Speaker 1: involved with this. I mean, he's fest up to most
Speaker 1: of what he did, but he vehemently denies that he
Speaker 1: was ever involved in this. So that theory, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to give it any I'm not going to give
Speaker 1: it legs the bottom of the stack. Now we're going
Speaker 1: to go on to our next suspect, and that is
Speaker 1: a guy by the name of Roger Arnold. Roger Arnold,
Speaker 1: This guy's story is really kind of sad. He was
Speaker 1: a dockhead at the time in the Chicago area who
Speaker 1: went out one night, had a couple of drinks, maybe
Speaker 1: one too many, and made a couple of statements while
Speaker 1: he was at the bar about the poisonings, which gave
Speaker 1: some people around him pause and go figure. Somebody called
Speaker 1: the cops. Yeah, I don't know, but I don't know
Speaker 1: exactly what he said either. I couldn't ever really pin
Speaker 1: that down. But it doesn't really matter. The point is
Speaker 1: he said something that alarmed folks. There were some and
Speaker 1: when he got arrested, the cops started looking into him.
Speaker 1: What do they find? Will they find some weak connections
Speaker 1: between him and some of the victims. There was the
Speaker 1: connection between Mary Reiner and him. The connection between them
Speaker 1: was that Arnold had worked at a jewel warehouse where
Speaker 1: her father also worked. There was also the fact that,
Speaker 1: according to some newspaper research, the police had gotten a
Speaker 1: tip that his ex wife had been committed to a
Speaker 1: psychiatric ward at a hospital which just happened to be
Speaker 1: across the street from the store where Mary Reiner purchased
Speaker 1: her taile at all, so this is two connections to her.
Speaker 1: Oh and by the way, he was a do it
Speaker 1: yourself chemist because when they searched his house they found
Speaker 1: unregistered guns and chemicals and beakers and funnels. Oh my,
Speaker 1: probably or something. I don't know exactly what he was doing,
Speaker 1: but what they found was not what they wanted. And
Speaker 1: by they, I mean the cops because he didn't have
Speaker 1: potassium cyanide. He had potassium carbonate, which is harmless. I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna do anything to you know. I don't know
Speaker 1: what he was using it for. And he never said.
Speaker 1: This is a quote. This is the greatest quote ever
Speaker 1: from somebody who's in trouble. I'm not saying what the
Speaker 1: chemicals were used for, but it was nothing illegal. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he got charged. He got charges for the weapons and
Speaker 1: um assault. I don't I think the assault was something
Speaker 1: related to his wife, prior issues between he and his wife.
Speaker 1: But he didn't take this so well. He got pretty
Speaker 1: worked up and he carried a huge grudge about it
Speaker 1: for a while. Uh he one of the invested interrogators
Speaker 1: actually said that they quoted him as saying, I'd like
Speaker 1: to be on the homic side of the guy that
Speaker 1: turned me in for what he did to me. So
Speaker 1: he's got a huge beef. Whoever called him in Probably
Speaker 1: forgiveness would have been a better path for him. It
Speaker 1: all turned up for him. I'm just looking up uses
Speaker 1: of potassium chloride carbonate, carbonate. Sorry, okay, let me know
Speaker 1: what you find. I'm going to China production, Okay, drawing agents.
Speaker 1: You can use it to make grass jelly, which is
Speaker 1: a Chinese and Southeast Asian food. It's kind of myriad
Speaker 1: number of uses, but nothing. You can make meat or
Speaker 1: wine with it. You can suppress fires, that's the thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's uh. You see it in fire extinguishers. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's so. There are a couple of things. None of
Speaker 1: them seem particularly interesting treacherous, No, not at all, but
Speaker 1: it's interesting. What you know, I'm not going to tell
Speaker 1: you what it is, but I'm not going to tell
Speaker 1: you what to use it for. But it wasn't illegal,
Speaker 1: Like why wouldn't you just tell him what it is? Then?
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, for all I know, the
Speaker 1: guy was using it to cut coke. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: he could have been doing stuff in this is that
Speaker 1: as he was selling cocon on the side it's illegal.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's just why you wouldn't say anything. Yeah, absolutely, Well,
Speaker 1: it's not illegal to use a potassium carbonade until you
Speaker 1: actually cut the coke with it. Yes, it's true, until
Speaker 1: the cocaine comes into the equation. Technically. Joe's right. Well,
Speaker 1: here's where everything kind of creamed off track for him.
Speaker 1: There was a guy by the name of John Stanisha.
Speaker 1: I want to say, I want to pronounce it anybody, okay.
Speaker 1: Stanisha didn't know Arnold. He had been out, he'd had
Speaker 1: some drinks. It was last call and he was leaving
Speaker 1: the Lincoln Avenue bar on the eighteenth of June three,
Speaker 1: So this is a full year or not quite a
Speaker 1: year after the poisonings Arnold saw. I'm believed that he
Speaker 1: was the same heavy set man that he remembered, probably
Speaker 1: being the one that ratted him out of the dude
Speaker 1: he was drunkenly saying stuff too. So he walked up
Speaker 1: to him. He yelled at him, you turned me in
Speaker 1: at a shot ing point blank. That's not great, and
Speaker 1: killed him. Not smart, not the best idea. Arnold was
Speaker 1: trying and convicted and sentenced to thirty years for murder
Speaker 1: but there was never any strong connection to him for
Speaker 1: the title and all. No, no, he was. It was
Speaker 1: a matter he just he was opened his mouth at
Speaker 1: the wrong place in time. He probably just made a
Speaker 1: stupid joke. He gets drunk and it's like, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I did that to cover up my wife's murder. You
Speaker 1: know that he knew the girl and was like, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: that girl was a blip blie blee and she got
Speaker 1: what she deserved. And people like, wait, what, okay, hang
Speaker 1: on here as simple as at okay, we're ready to
Speaker 1: keep going. Yes, is the next one up on our
Speaker 1: list of suspects? Isn't really it's a terrible name because
Speaker 1: it's based on a profile. It is an unknown, anti social,
Speaker 1: slash angry at society male, likely white. Let's be fair, though,
Speaker 1: that's probably the profile of whoever did this. It is
Speaker 1: typically guys are more likely to murder than women are,
Speaker 1: and you have to be anti social and angry at
Speaker 1: society to do something like this. I mean, the thing
Speaker 1: that I shake my head at every time about this
Speaker 1: profile is profiles work because they help you pin it
Speaker 1: down on somebody. This profile is so vague it borders
Speaker 1: on useless. It was I was never nowhere near Chicago
Speaker 1: at anytime. In Okay, here's here's the profile. The profile
Speaker 1: of was of someone who was angry at society and
Speaker 1: wanted to lash out at it. And they believed that
Speaker 1: that person was at the time or possibly had received
Speaker 1: psychiatric care, so all of Chicago. This uh, this subject
Speaker 1: could have also complained about how society was wronging him
Speaker 1: and probably tried to contact someone that he considered to
Speaker 1: be in a position of power. That person didn't recognize
Speaker 1: his communication or basically refused to listen to him crazy,
Speaker 1: which made him angrier. The thailand all killer would have lived. Obviously,
Speaker 1: I think we've established this in the Chicago area and
Speaker 1: had a decent knowledge of at least the neighborhoods that
Speaker 1: this took place in. This is where I go. This
Speaker 1: is really a borderline profile. He had to own a
Speaker 1: vehicle to get to the distances between each store up.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I don't think that's true,
Speaker 1: but okay, I don't either could have taken a bus.
Speaker 1: I could have happened over months. I mean, I mean,
Speaker 1: there's a million ways to get around in Chicago. So
Speaker 1: it's it's really it's it's funny. The things that actually
Speaker 1: really stand out to me for this profile that I
Speaker 1: think have some validity are that they figure that this
Speaker 1: person had to have worked in a job or industry
Speaker 1: that gave access to potassium cyanide. Those are the gold
Speaker 1: and silver mining industries, film processing at the time, or
Speaker 1: some form of chemical manufacturing, which also means that it's
Speaker 1: a low wage job, which would fuel the anger issue
Speaker 1: that they talked about because they had said in this
Speaker 1: profile making low wage, so therefore in kind of a
Speaker 1: semi poverty situation. But why would it be a low
Speaker 1: wage job and there's lots of good paying jobs, and
Speaker 1: you know, the chemical industry and things like that, it
Speaker 1: would be what somebody would consider a menial job. This
Speaker 1: is what the profiler believes. Yes, yes, but I can
Speaker 1: see somebody if I work in a chemical factory and yeah,
Speaker 1: I make an okay living, but this job sucks, then
Speaker 1: they're angry because their lot in life is terrible to them.
Speaker 1: I want to address the fact that somebody could walk
Speaker 1: out of their job with something like that. That seems wrong.
Speaker 1: That's a little scary, really scary. It's a good question
Speaker 1: about how tightly they control that stuff seems like something
Speaker 1: that's that lethal, maybe you put a lock on it.
Speaker 1: I've got one thing to see it about that two words,
Speaker 1: Aldrich James, A big Russian ball was walking out of
Speaker 1: CIA headquarters with grocery bags full cloth, secret documents. You know,
Speaker 1: it seems like they should have kept a lock on
Speaker 1: that too. What do you think about this chemical company
Speaker 1: over there? Yeah? Yeah, to think that, if this is right,
Speaker 1: this person could have at any time lashed out again
Speaker 1: in some method using this poison. I think we're lucky
Speaker 1: that they didn't. I don't know why it didn't happen again,
Speaker 1: but it's scary that there's a good question as to
Speaker 1: why it didn't happen again. Yeah, I don't know. Um.
Speaker 1: I mean, it could be as simple as one of
Speaker 1: the people And this isn't something that I've seen in
Speaker 1: the theories, and this is me just kind of spitballing.
Speaker 1: But it's possible that one of the people that was
Speaker 1: involved in this whole thing made themselves a victim. If
Speaker 1: you think about it, one of the ways to be
Speaker 1: remembered is to die with everybody else. Also a good
Speaker 1: way to not get caught. What I was what I
Speaker 1: was actually thinking, is that is that one of the
Speaker 1: people here, the person who did it, wanted to kill
Speaker 1: one person who was probably one of the early people
Speaker 1: to die, because you know, the question is is why
Speaker 1: Thailand all why do you pick Thailand all from for
Speaker 1: the delivery vehicle, and why is it? Why is it
Speaker 1: that a certain number of people die? But then it's
Speaker 1: all quote from the shelves, and then you don't do
Speaker 1: it again. This is always Joe's theory, though with any
Speaker 1: like big murder, it's always that one person was the
Speaker 1: victim and then you just kind of did a couple
Speaker 1: other people for fun. But the copycats proof that that's
Speaker 1: actually what happened. There's there's the woman. Uh, there was
Speaker 1: a woman that oh gosh, I can't remember what pills
Speaker 1: she poisoned, but she poisoned her husband and then stuck
Speaker 1: a couple of bottles back on the shelves to cover
Speaker 1: her tracks. To me, it looked like her husband was
Speaker 1: the first victim. People continually did that. Now with the
Speaker 1: woman that I'm thinking of specifically, she and a lot
Speaker 1: of these these people didn't know what they were doing,
Speaker 1: and they left trace evidence behind, whether it was in
Speaker 1: the pills that were poisoned or stuff in their house,
Speaker 1: But I don't. I didn't see anything that said that
Speaker 1: something like that was found in the victims houses. And
Speaker 1: you would think that if it was somebody who was
Speaker 1: trying to kill that person and then covered up, there
Speaker 1: would have been something discovered. Because people tend to be
Speaker 1: sloppy and not think about all the angles, especially at
Speaker 1: a time when crime c s I Shows were not
Speaker 1: the thing and everybody didn't consider themselves an expert. They
Speaker 1: just didn't think anybody would know. Yeah, but it may
Speaker 1: be some people are smarter than other people. You know,
Speaker 1: criminals get busted pretty readily and fast because they tend
Speaker 1: to be kind of dumb. But if somebody was a
Speaker 1: little smarter than the average bear, then they could have
Speaker 1: probably covered their tracks a little more or just took
Speaker 1: more time with it. Yeah, so let's let's let's let's
Speaker 1: think about this for a second. Now, you want to
Speaker 1: murder your say, or your your husband or your wife
Speaker 1: for the life insurance money or whatever, and you have
Speaker 1: to take away. So if so, let's say you get
Speaker 1: your wife, you're gonna kill your husband. Your husband has
Speaker 1: chronic back pain. He's taking that he's taking pills pretty
Speaker 1: much constantly for it, and like if it wasn't chronic
Speaker 1: back pain, say, for example, your husband has severe allergies
Speaker 1: and he's having to take manatorial capsules for well, that's
Speaker 1: your delivery vehicle. So if I was going to look
Speaker 1: at this, because if you're planning on killing a specific person,
Speaker 1: you can't get these all out there on the shelves
Speaker 1: and then into this guy's medicine cabinet waiting because by
Speaker 1: the time, because I have ad my medicine cabinet, I
Speaker 1: take it rarely because I rarely get a headache or
Speaker 1: anything like that. So in other words, if you're planning
Speaker 1: I'm murdering somebody with the title and all, you've got
Speaker 1: to be pretty certain that he's gonna eat that he's
Speaker 1: gonna eat the poison pill very shortly before the whole thing.
Speaker 1: It's the news stands. So if I were the FBI,
Speaker 1: I'd go back and I'd look at all the victims
Speaker 1: and all their families and friends and loved ones and stuff.
Speaker 1: Find out the victim of the chronic pain issues and
Speaker 1: ask yourself who wanted him to be dead? And I
Speaker 1: think that we might have the person there that's that's
Speaker 1: that's I mean, that's that's that's a course of action.
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, I imagine at this point, thirty some years later,
Speaker 1: that course of action has probably been run dry a
Speaker 1: hundred times. I'm sure. I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 1: But let's let's go to our final suspect. Our last
Speaker 1: suspect is Johnson and Johnson's potential cover up. They did
Speaker 1: have access to the pills. Yeah, yeah, exactly right. Because
Speaker 1: remember we talked about here when we were going through this,
Speaker 1: is that Johnson and Johnson appeared from the beginning to
Speaker 1: be as much a victim of the entire thing as
Speaker 1: of people who died. And they they did seem to
Speaker 1: do everything right. They were taking all the steps. Everybody
Speaker 1: thought they were great, and their pr folks were working overtime,
Speaker 1: and that might be what they wanted you to believe,
Speaker 1: is that they were the innocent victims. Yeah, they a lot.
Speaker 1: It's it's really interesting. I had never ever thought about this.
Speaker 1: There's a guy by the name of Scott Barts. He
Speaker 1: wrote a book called The Tailing All Mafia, and I'm
Speaker 1: really sad I wasn't able to get ahold of it
Speaker 1: ahead of time. And I'm gonna track this book down,
Speaker 1: but he brings up some points about this story. They're
Speaker 1: really hard to ignore and all in all rather disturbing.
Speaker 1: First off, do you remember how I said that all
Speaker 1: those bottles of Thailand all were gathered up from the
Speaker 1: stores and and had to be tested. Johnson and Johnson
Speaker 1: did the testing. It wasn't the FBI or the police
Speaker 1: or some independent lab. It was Johnson and Johnson who
Speaker 1: was doing it, which means that they could technically control
Speaker 1: the results that got published about how much was found. Well,
Speaker 1: are you sure about that? Because I find it hard
Speaker 1: to believe that the FBI would turn over criminal evidence
Speaker 1: and not keep it in their in their own possession.
Speaker 1: I find that really really hard to believe. This is
Speaker 1: based on if you want to use that at a trial,
Speaker 1: once it's once it's left the chain of evidence, it's
Speaker 1: useless in a trial. I'm not going to disagree with
Speaker 1: you at all, Joe. This is this is based on
Speaker 1: the research that Barts is saying he did. He's saying
Speaker 1: that Johnson and Johnson was doing all of the testing
Speaker 1: and that it wasn't a crime lab. I mean, it's conceivable,
Speaker 1: but I still find it really hard to believe. So
Speaker 1: they were the ones who did the recall, So they
Speaker 1: were the ones who had a lot of the pills,
Speaker 1: and that might be, Hey, we've already got them all here,
Speaker 1: let us just test them and we'll save you the
Speaker 1: time and will incur No, I know, I know. I
Speaker 1: read an interview with this guy and which he said
Speaker 1: that the FBI just chipped all this stuff straight to
Speaker 1: Johnson and Johnson who destroyed it. And but I'm really funny.
Speaker 1: That hard to believe. It's it does make you lift
Speaker 1: and eyebrow. Here's the next thing. There was a victim.
Speaker 1: We talked about her a couple of times. Now, Mary Reiner. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: here's the thing with Mary. She had just come home
Speaker 1: from the hospital because she had just had a baby. Yeah,
Speaker 1: congratulations Mary. It's really depressing now, yeah, I know, it's
Speaker 1: not not so happy. Thailand All was the major brand
Speaker 1: used by hospitals for pain relief. It was their go
Speaker 1: to and they liked the extra strength Thailand All. Mary
Speaker 1: didn't have in her home a bottle of extra strength
Speaker 1: Thailand All. She had a bottle of regular Thailand All,
Speaker 1: which was her preferred Yeah, yeah, it was her. It
Speaker 1: was the one that she liked. The pills were in
Speaker 1: that bottle. We're not regular strength. They were extra strength Thailand.
Speaker 1: All Bart speculates that what happened is that she was
Speaker 1: sent home from the hospital with a single days dosage
Speaker 1: of extra strength Thailand all and said, well, I can
Speaker 1: keep him in this little thing and you gave me,
Speaker 1: or I can just drop him in my tail at
Speaker 1: all bottle. So she put him in the bottle that
Speaker 1: she already had in her home. How many pills were
Speaker 1: in the bottle there was There would have been a
Speaker 1: day's dosage. I think it's one dose every four hours,
Speaker 1: typically four to six two pills every four to six hours,
Speaker 1: twenty four hours. That's like ten pills, ten plus pills
Speaker 1: somewhere in there, minus what she took, of course. But
Speaker 1: the thing is, all of the pills that were found
Speaker 1: and identified to have been laced with the potassium cyanide
Speaker 1: we're in stores. No hospital stock was listed as tampered
Speaker 1: and contaminated with Where the rest of the pills in
Speaker 1: her regular pill bottle, extra strength or regular, They were
Speaker 1: all the extra strength. It was almost as if it
Speaker 1: was an empty bottle. So I do this. I don't
Speaker 1: know if you guys do this or not, But like
Speaker 1: when I go to the store, it's cheaper and more
Speaker 1: effective to just buy like a big bottle of the pills.
Speaker 1: And but you don't want to keep that in your
Speaker 1: medicine cabinet, so you keep that someplace ELTs, but you
Speaker 1: just keep refilling and it's just whatever bottle you had.
Speaker 1: So I guess it's possible that she was doing that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's why I'm thinking that she must have well,
Speaker 1: and that's why Bart says she must have taken the
Speaker 1: hospital pills that she was given, purchased extra strength. I mean,
Speaker 1: she was pregnant. She was nine months pregnant. You kind
Speaker 1: of bump it up a little bit. I feel like
Speaker 1: that's probably true. You know, we're getting a little more
Speaker 1: pat a large bottle of extra strength, but she had
Speaker 1: her regular bottle leftover. Math I don't know, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I never saw anything saying that that
Speaker 1: was in her house. But here's here's here's what the
Speaker 1: problem is. Sure this begs to say that the tampering
Speaker 1: happened somewhere than other than between store and the consumers
Speaker 1: from the hospital because she had pills from the hospital. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, it's it raises issues because everything we've told
Speaker 1: was somebody pulled him off the shelf, tampered and put
Speaker 1: him back bottle. No. I mean it's also possible that
Speaker 1: you grab an extra or a regular strength Helen instead
Speaker 1: of an extra strengthle pills. Yeah, and you're just throwing
Speaker 1: pills back in bottles and yeah, you know you got
Speaker 1: a bunch of extra strength and a regular one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's absolutely Boston as I don't know, and also
Speaker 1: Barts rose book, and he probably should know that he
Speaker 1: used to work for Johnson and Johnson. Yeah, he's a
Speaker 1: whistleblower and he was he was fired, but so he
Speaker 1: might have a bit of a we might have a
Speaker 1: bit of a bias there. But this does suggest that
Speaker 1: it was the pills were tampered with, but before they
Speaker 1: hit distribution exactly. It would suggest that except for like
Speaker 1: what what Devon says, but also where did Barts get
Speaker 1: that from? Was it is that actually an FBI report?
Speaker 1: I don't know where. I don't know where Bart's got
Speaker 1: that information. That's why I wanted to get the book,
Speaker 1: and I haven't been able to track down a copy
Speaker 1: of it yet. Johnson and Johnson believe I understand it's
Speaker 1: a self published book. You probably got to go to
Speaker 1: his website. Well, that would explain why I couldn't find
Speaker 1: it in Amazon. Well, no, I was actually looking like
Speaker 1: the library and places like that for free copies, just
Speaker 1: to be able to get electronic copy to read fast.
Speaker 1: But so a lot of problems. He Barts is basically
Speaker 1: saying that what Johnson and Johnson has told us isn't
Speaker 1: our right lie if this whole hospital poison connection is true.
Speaker 1: The other thing that Barts says is that there is
Speaker 1: illusion between the f d A and Johnson and Johnson
Speaker 1: that is specifically related to evidence that was given by
Speaker 1: the f d A about how long it would take
Speaker 1: for the potassium cyanide to corrode and break through the
Speaker 1: walls of the capsule. It's probably pretty caustic. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: has said that their timeline of it, he's hinted at
Speaker 1: that they may have fudged it so that it said
Speaker 1: that it acted faster than it really could have. In
Speaker 1: other words, he's saying that Johnson and Johnson said, oh yeah, no,
Speaker 1: you'd be able to tell the pills would be rotting
Speaker 1: away in a matter of days. I'm making this part
Speaker 1: up a presumption of just using this as an example,
Speaker 1: where an actual fact, it would be a matter of
Speaker 1: weeks before the corrosion would be enough to destroy the pills. Sure,
Speaker 1: I think the timeline that you've just used it is
Speaker 1: probably off. But yeah, yeah, no, and I know that
Speaker 1: timeline is off, but I'm just using that. That's what
Speaker 1: he's saying, because he's saying Johnson and Johnson put that
Speaker 1: out so that they could say that it wasn't in
Speaker 1: the pill before it left their hands. It's important to
Speaker 1: note that the FBI initially didn't think that the bottles
Speaker 1: that had the poison pills had been opened before they
Speaker 1: reached those consumers. So the FBI was curious. There was
Speaker 1: a DA who looked into this but got shut down.
Speaker 1: They didn't they had some reasonably the bottles had not
Speaker 1: been opened before they were bought. That is according to him, yes,
Speaker 1: according to parts. How could they possibly know that, because
Speaker 1: but by the time they have examined the bottles, the
Speaker 1: bottles have been opened. I know that they pulled from
Speaker 1: the shelves other ones that were but even that, I mean,
Speaker 1: but if they tell yeah, if it's a plastic snap
Speaker 1: lid and that's it, it's really hard to take understand that,
Speaker 1: and the only way they were able to have to
Speaker 1: find out that those bottles had poison pills and was
Speaker 1: to open them. Right. Yeah, well but you know, I
Speaker 1: guess the presumption is right is that you get you
Speaker 1: have you in the lab, you get all these bottles
Speaker 1: and you go, Okay, bottle one open, Okay, it was sealed.
Speaker 1: Test all the pills and nothing in there. Okay, cool,
Speaker 1: bottle too open, Okay it was sealed. Oh there's poison
Speaker 1: and knees. Right. But I again, I have literally never
Speaker 1: encountered a pill bottle that didn't have the five different
Speaker 1: millions of seals, So I have no idea what I
Speaker 1: remember the old ones where it was with the cotton
Speaker 1: that's in there to keep the pills from rattling around
Speaker 1: so they don't destroy themselves. Yeah, that used to be
Speaker 1: in It was kind of a tube of cotton that
Speaker 1: was bent in the middle. So let's just say it
Speaker 1: was I don't know, four inches long, so it folded
Speaker 1: half was a two inch strip because you could tell
Speaker 1: that a machine pushed it into the bottle to fold
Speaker 1: it and then pulled back out, so it could be
Speaker 1: as simple as well, this is weird that cotton is
Speaker 1: just jammed into the bottle and doesn't look like it
Speaker 1: should be. So I don't know. I mean, this is
Speaker 1: speculation on my part as much as yours, But that's
Speaker 1: the only thing that I can guess. The thing that
Speaker 1: I think that we should also bring up so that
Speaker 1: folks understand some of why maybe there's issues with what
Speaker 1: Barts is saying is how Thailand all was produced because
Speaker 1: there was the manufacturing plant, like we said before, Pennsylvanian
Speaker 1: Puerto Rico, and they made the raw stuff what was
Speaker 1: in the middle or what was in the capsule. They
Speaker 1: then sent that in a drum to another plant where
Speaker 1: that plant put it in the capsule, put him in
Speaker 1: the bottle, and then shipped them. What a tedious job
Speaker 1: it would be filling those capsules. Now, yeah, yeah, one
Speaker 1: guy with a little with a little spoon at a time.
Speaker 1: But so it's it's possible that at that second step
Speaker 1: where the mix was put into the capsule, it could
Speaker 1: have been poisoning inserted at that point. Now I don't
Speaker 1: I don't buy what Barts is saying. Yeah, he sounds
Speaker 1: kind of like a disgruntled X employee. He's a whistleblower
Speaker 1: and he seems to have taken on a crusade against
Speaker 1: the pharmaceutical industry in general. Yeah, and also I just
Speaker 1: don't see how I don't see how that it could
Speaker 1: have been tainted at this particular point, at that that
Speaker 1: production facility or that packaging facility and then wind up
Speaker 1: only in a very small, small area of Chicago. I'm
Speaker 1: not going to disagree with that at all. That again,
Speaker 1: that's the problem. But I think that's the problem with
Speaker 1: a lot of these conspiracy theories is that it is
Speaker 1: cause and effect, a focused to be focused without looking
Speaker 1: at all the surrounding factors. That, unfortunately is all of
Speaker 1: our potential suspects. I I don't know which one to
Speaker 1: go to. I mean, unfortunately, that silly FBI profile is
Speaker 1: the most likely. But yeah, but we'd he would have
Speaker 1: continued it for a lot longer, probably, you would think, unless,
Speaker 1: as you said, that person was locked up for some reason.
Speaker 1: Is a psychiatry or just a prison scenario. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: still liking the idea that it was actually somebody who
Speaker 1: knew one of the original people who died and wanted
Speaker 1: to kill them. And I would say, FBI, go find
Speaker 1: out which victim had chronic pain issues, find out who
Speaker 1: wanted to feel that person, and there you go. Well,
Speaker 1: if you are listeners have any theories of your own,
Speaker 1: feel free to share those with us. If you go
Speaker 1: to our website, which is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com,
Speaker 1: you can leave a comment. On the website. Of course,
Speaker 1: we will have links to some of our research as
Speaker 1: well as this and every other episode that we've had
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Speaker 1: That email address is Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com.
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Speaker 1: do alright, gang, Well, that is all of the pertinent
Speaker 1: facts and details that I can think that we have
Speaker 1: to give to everybody. We're going to go ahead and
Speaker 1: wrap this one up and we will talk to you
Speaker 1: next week. Everybody. Bye, guys. Do you have a ton all?
Speaker 1: I got a headache,