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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't stories of things we simply don't

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Speaker 1: know the answer too. Hello everyone, and welcome back to

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Speaker 1: another episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast. As always, I

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Speaker 1: am Steve, joined by my favorite hosts. Yea favorite because

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Speaker 1: there's no other. Okay, well, once again, as always, we

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Speaker 1: have another mystery for you today, a really groovy mystery.

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Speaker 1: It's a groovy mystery. It's got death and everything. This

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Speaker 1: one was sent into us by Terry. She sent it

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Speaker 1: to us on the Facebook page, So thank you Terry.

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Speaker 1: Because what we're going to talk about today is a

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Speaker 1: series of unsolved murders. Okay, well, the how is solved,

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Speaker 1: the who and the why is not. And for anybody

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Speaker 1: wasn't read the episode title, what we're gonna be talking

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Speaker 1: about today are the Thailand all murders which happened in

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Speaker 1: late September early October. So here's our story. On the

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Speaker 1: morning of September twenty nine, twelve year old Mary Kellerman

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Speaker 1: complained to her parents that she wasn't feeling so well.

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Speaker 1: She had a sore throat. She died later that day.

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Speaker 1: Sore throat. You're give me a minute, You're a little

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Speaker 1: out of the game there, sir, I think that's a

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Speaker 1: drink for all of our listeners who are yeah, you

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Speaker 1: know they're blowing it up. Yeah, the okay, back to

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Speaker 1: the story. Sorry. The same day, Adam Janie or Janis

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Speaker 1: are not sure. Janice, who was supposed to worker, died

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Speaker 1: of what appeared to be a massive heart attack. And

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Speaker 1: he was like nine, right, Yeah, he was a young

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Speaker 1: guy and his family, doing his family's will do they

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Speaker 1: circled the wag and everybody gathered at his house for

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Speaker 1: that that time of grief and go figure. A couple

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Speaker 1: of them got headaches because well it's a stressful time.

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Speaker 1: His brother and his sister in law both decided that

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Speaker 1: they take something to take the edge off. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: they both died. His brother, whose name was Stanley, died

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Speaker 1: that very same day, and his sister in law, Teresa,

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Speaker 1: died two days later. Several days later, Mary McFarlane, Paula Prince,

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Speaker 1: and Mary Reiner each died unexpectedly. None of these people

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Speaker 1: knew each other. They didn't have anything in common. Well, okay,

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Speaker 1: they had one thing in common. They had taken each

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Speaker 1: prior to their death an extra strength Thailand. All Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Mary Kellerman, the twelve year old girl, her parents because

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Speaker 1: she had a sore throat, had given her an extra

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Speaker 1: strength thailand All. I don't understand what this got to

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Speaker 1: do with them dying how to die. No, I don't

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Speaker 1: understand why anybody would like, first of all, give a

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Speaker 1: twelve year old extra strength anything. But it was for

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Speaker 1: a sore throat, like I think, I think that that

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Speaker 1: wasn't her only symptom. I think that was the main time.

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Speaker 1: Adam Janice had taken the extra strength thailand All just

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Speaker 1: before he died, and his brother and sister in law

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Speaker 1: had also taken pills from the same bottle. Turned out,

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Speaker 1: each of these seven people had unknowingly consumed a pill

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Speaker 1: that was laced with potassium cyanide. That's not great. It's

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Speaker 1: not really something the body craves, not at all. It's

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Speaker 1: it's extremely toxic to the human body. What potassium cyani

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Speaker 1: does is it stops the tissues in your body from

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Speaker 1: being able to take up the oxygen that's in your bloodstream,

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Speaker 1: which means that you die from histotoxic hypoxia, which literally

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Speaker 1: is your body cannot absorb the oxygen. It's a lethal

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Speaker 1: dose of potassium cyanide is somewhere between two or three

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Speaker 1: hundred milligrams, which is a really really small dosage if

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Speaker 1: we try and put that into a frame of reference

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Speaker 1: for people to you know, think about it an everyday scenario.

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Speaker 1: Two d milligrams is about three to four grains of sugar.

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Speaker 1: That's not a lot, So it doesn't take a lot

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Speaker 1: of this stuff to kill you. Now, Once it was

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Speaker 1: determined by the investigators that tailing All was the link

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Speaker 1: between these people, panic broke out. People were throwing Thailand

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Speaker 1: all the way, stores were yanking it off of the shelves.

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Speaker 1: Johnson and Johnson who was the who is the parent

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Speaker 1: company of McNeil Consumer Products who made tailent All at

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Speaker 1: the time, And I honestly don't know if they're still

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Speaker 1: the ones it well, but I mean McNeil Consumer Products

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Speaker 1: was one who makes it, but I don't think they

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Speaker 1: do it anymore. I'm guessing they were in full blown

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Speaker 1: damage control mode trying to figure out what was going

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Speaker 1: on and why their product was killing people and how

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Speaker 1: this poison got into their pills. They quickly Johnson and

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Speaker 1: Johnson quickly put out a statement saying that the poison

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Speaker 1: could not have been put in the pills in their

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Speaker 1: manufacturing process, and it had to have happened somewhere after

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Speaker 1: the pills had left their hands. I think that's fair,

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Speaker 1: it is, and they but they had they had great

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Speaker 1: evidence because what they dis is they tracked the lot

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Speaker 1: numbers on the medication, the lethal doses of medication, and

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Speaker 1: they figured out that the lot numbers were from medication

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Speaker 1: that was produced at two different plants, one in Puerto

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Speaker 1: Rico and one in Pennsylvania. That would be really hard

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Speaker 1: to have it introduced to the manufacturing level. And besides

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Speaker 1: which that stuff would have wind up being distributed all

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Speaker 1: over the place, not just northeast Chicago exactly exactly. Because yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that's a good point, thank you, Joe. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if I specified here that this is all happening

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Speaker 1: in a suburb or a larger area of Chicago, kind

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Speaker 1: of around where the O'Hare airport is now. There's a

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Speaker 1: bunch of suburban areas, and that's where this is all happening.

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Speaker 1: This is probably a good point to stop the story

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Speaker 1: and explain something about Thailand. All for any of our

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Speaker 1: listeners who aren't young enough to know this, like me,

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Speaker 1: it's not just Thailand, all right, it's pills. Well, it's

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Speaker 1: pills yes, it's pills in general, but this a lot

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Speaker 1: of this is related to Thailand all a specific the

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Speaker 1: theres seed a menafin is what they were using. Is

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Speaker 1: there seeda menafin tablets or cablets I should say capsules

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Speaker 1: capsules capsules. Today, when you go into the store and

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Speaker 1: you buy any medicine and you look at the bottle,

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Speaker 1: there's usually a couple of seals on the bottle. We're

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Speaker 1: talking about over the counter medica. Over the counter medication

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Speaker 1: usually usually the bottles in a box that's sealed, and

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Speaker 1: then there's a right well and and and the I

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Speaker 1: looked at the regulations on what has to have what,

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Speaker 1: and it's really too boring to go into. But typically

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Speaker 1: there's one to two layers of protection before you get

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Speaker 1: to the box. But the point is when you buy

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Speaker 1: over the counter medication now, typically there's some kind of

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Speaker 1: plastic shrink wrap seal on the lid. Maybe it's got

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Speaker 1: printing on it or perforations, so it's very obvious if

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Speaker 1: it's been removed or messed with. And then when you

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Speaker 1: open up the lid, there's some kind kind of seal

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Speaker 1: on the top of the bottle which he has to

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Speaker 1: get off, but it's you know, it's plastic or it's

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Speaker 1: foil or paper or something like that. That is what

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Speaker 1: we are used to. Didn't used to be that way

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Speaker 1: because in the up until that point, a bottle of

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Speaker 1: pills was sealed with the lid and you opened the

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Speaker 1: lid and there's that silly piece of cottony material and

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Speaker 1: that was it. Yeah, yeah, that sounds safe back in

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Speaker 1: the days when they were it's psychos poisoning your pills. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think it speaks to some of the how naive

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Speaker 1: industries were about people wanting to do harm to others

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Speaker 1: via their products. People just didn't think it would would

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Speaker 1: ever happen. People didn't do that kind of crap. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: until this this came along, and now that now it happens.

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Speaker 1: As we all know, there are copycats of this happens

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Speaker 1: all the It's hard not the ideas out there. You

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Speaker 1: pretty much have to seal everything you have to and

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Speaker 1: and all of the products that we get now that

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Speaker 1: are sealed they were. There was laws passed, ironically enough,

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Speaker 1: called the Thailand All Bill, which requires that be put

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Speaker 1: into place. We should also while we're talking about the medication,

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Speaker 1: we should probably talk about the pills themselves. As we

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Speaker 1: alluded to a little bit earlier, extra Strength Thailand all

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Speaker 1: and a lot of other over the counter medication came

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Speaker 1: in a capsule. It's not a solid pill, it's not

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Speaker 1: a gel coded pill. It's not what we're used to now.

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Speaker 1: It's like it's more like what you get vitamins, like

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Speaker 1: specific vitamins and the days yea, and lots of stuff

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Speaker 1: that comes in capsules. Still. Yeah, but it's it's not

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Speaker 1: nearly as common as it is. But for anybody who

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Speaker 1: doesn't know, it's it's two pieces that go together, almost

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Speaker 1: like a Russian nesting doll. They fit together and they seal.

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Speaker 1: I guess it's one inside the other the ends. They're

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Speaker 1: very easy to pull open. And you guys know what

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Speaker 1: these things are, yes, everybody, Yeah, well it They became

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Speaker 1: super popular because they were easy to swallow, unlike like

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Speaker 1: a dry as bird. Yeah. They're also you can a

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Speaker 1: lot of help nuts these days. You know, you can

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Speaker 1: fill your own capsules. You can just get whatever you want.

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Speaker 1: And that is the achilles heel of the capsule when

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Speaker 1: it comes to medication, is it can be opened in

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Speaker 1: the medicine can be taken out or in this case

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Speaker 1: added to exactly, which is a big problem. And that's

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Speaker 1: the reason that a lot of things now or gel

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Speaker 1: coats or whatever they are, so that these over the

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Speaker 1: counter medications can't easily be tampered with. I think it

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Speaker 1: also is worth noting that John's the way that Johnson

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Speaker 1: and Johnson handled this whole thing. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: we were going to talk about this or not, but

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Speaker 1: it's been praised as pretty much one of the best

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Speaker 1: corporation handlings of a huge disaster like this at all times,

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Speaker 1: and so I think that's probably worth mentioning a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Hill went really well, we will talk about it was

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Speaker 1: kind of disaster to them. Oh yeah, you're at the

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Speaker 1: same time. I mean, you know, I would I would

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Speaker 1: be looking at this and they'd be saying, Okay, I'm

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Speaker 1: pitching up my taile and all. And then and then

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Speaker 1: I go to the store to buy some other pain reliever,

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Speaker 1: and and I would say, no, Johnson and Johnson, But

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Speaker 1: then I think to myself, well, what about the other manufacturers.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's just exactly that's and that's that's the

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Speaker 1: issue that we'll talk about in a bit here, because

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Speaker 1: we're gonna get into some of that copycat stuff. But

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Speaker 1: back to the story. So at this point in the

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Speaker 1: story they figured out that thailand All is the culprit,

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Speaker 1: and what we think is going was going on was

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Speaker 1: someone was taking the bottles of extra strength thailand All,

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Speaker 1: taking him out of the store, opening the capsules, adding

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Speaker 1: the potassium cyanide to them on the order of magnitude

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Speaker 1: of thousands of times a lethal dose. So this person

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Speaker 1: was dumping a lot of that stuff in there, then

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Speaker 1: putting them back together, putting them back in the bottle,

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Speaker 1: and somehow getting the bottle back on the shelf for

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Speaker 1: some other unsuspecting person to buy and consume. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: just pills, for it wasn't just a capsule full of that.

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Speaker 1: It also had a scene metaphine in it. I believe

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Speaker 1: that based on the fact that it was you know,

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Speaker 1: two is enough to kill you, and it was up

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Speaker 1: to ten thousand times required dose, I have a feeling

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Speaker 1: that it was probably no medication at all. Sides That

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Speaker 1: would be my guest too, because I think a scene

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Speaker 1: of meta few tailen All specifically is typically five hundred

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Speaker 1: milligrams at least it is now. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: it was then that's one of the differences between Thailand

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Speaker 1: and appall. I don't know if you know this or not,

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Speaker 1: but advill is two d and fifty milligrams a pill

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Speaker 1: and thailan All is five typically, so you can take

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Speaker 1: more advil in like a dose, you can better whatever.

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Speaker 1: But anyways, I just thought i'd ask if it was

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that it was nothing, but science hard

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Speaker 1: to get that much into a capsule. I'm pretty sure

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Speaker 1: that they were just dumping out all the medication. Probably

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Speaker 1: why not go for the gusto. It's not like the

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Speaker 1: person is going to taste it in their food or something,

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Speaker 1: because it is a pill you just swallow. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of surprising that they whoever was, managed to do all

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Speaker 1: this without poisoning themselves. Yeah, they had to have some

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Speaker 1: working knowledge of it. You've got to presume that they

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Speaker 1: knew how to handle this substance without killing themselves away

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Speaker 1: to get it or how to make it. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: and there's some of that as as you know we've

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Speaker 1: been alluding to. We'll be getting into as always in

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Speaker 1: the theories, of course. But the police in the FBI, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the FBI got involved, began collecting pain reliever from stores

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Speaker 1: all over Chicago. Um. Now, because as we said, they

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Speaker 1: were all in the same area of town. The investigators

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Speaker 1: focused their first do you know what suburbs of Chicago names,

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Speaker 1: the neighborhoods were there? There was five of them. It

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Speaker 1: was elk Grove, Windfield, Arlington Heights, Elmhurst, and Lyle. Those

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Speaker 1: were the neighborhoods or the suburbs where this happened. I

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Speaker 1: like that you can actually pronounce Lyle, Lyle. There's a

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Speaker 1: weird there's a weird ass in there. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: It's fine, it doesn't matter. Yeah, okay, cool. So that's

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Speaker 1: a good good thing to know. We don't know exactly

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Speaker 1: how many bottles of this medicine were tainted. There was

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Speaker 1: They found five stores that had tampered bottles, but I

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Speaker 1: say we don't know the exact number because it's entirely

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Speaker 1: possible that there were more, and people who bought them

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Speaker 1: didn't end up taking them because they chucked them through

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Speaker 1: this whole thing blew up. If they had held on

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Speaker 1: to them, they could have sold them years later on eBay. Well,

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Speaker 1: of course, because they knew eBay was coming. Uh. What

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Speaker 1: what investigators had to do? And this had to be

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Speaker 1: just a horrible job. Is once they had collected all

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Speaker 1: of those bottles, they had to test the pills, and

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Speaker 1: they had to test each one because it wasn't every

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Speaker 1: pill in the bottle was poisoned. It was a handful

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Speaker 1: of them were poisoned in there, which makes it a

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Speaker 1: bit of a game of Russian roulette, like a literal

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Speaker 1: game of Russian roulette. Yeah, exactly, if not with a gun,

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Speaker 1: so sorry, with a bottle of pills that are going

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Speaker 1: to kill you, yeah, or somebody. And so the Some

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Speaker 1: of the bottles had just one pill, some of them

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Speaker 1: had several. That's the way it worked. It was several

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Speaker 1: per bottle, yes, and it seemed to have varied. Some

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Speaker 1: would have two or three, some seemed to have five

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Speaker 1: or six. The accounting, I mean, it's thirty some years later,

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Speaker 1: it's been rewritten. As always, we find different interpretations of

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Speaker 1: the numbers, so I'm not positive that's that's interesting about

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Speaker 1: the case of one of the first ones who died,

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Speaker 1: the girl. Now the second one, oh Adam Jess Janie,

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Speaker 1: yeah or Janie his name was pronounced. It's kind of

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Speaker 1: interesting that three pills came out of that bottle and

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Speaker 1: all three of them were poisonous. It's possible that more

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Speaker 1: than three pills came out of that bottle. It's possible

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Speaker 1: because they weren't all tainted, that other people took the

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Speaker 1: title at all and didn't suffer any el effects because

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Speaker 1: they didn't get the poison pilluck out. Huh. Well, anyway,

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Speaker 1: we can talk about that later. But well, no, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a great point. It's just they're

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Speaker 1: not all gonna be poisoned. They were. That's a lot

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Speaker 1: of poison for somebody to sit there and painstakingly scoop

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Speaker 1: up and put into each pill, so it wouldn't be fun.

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Speaker 1: That was Adam Jannis married, by the way, I do

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Speaker 1: not believe he was, so it was just him. We

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Speaker 1: talked about this a little bit before, but the copycat

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Speaker 1: killings that happened because of this, this is another one

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Speaker 1: of those things where the media actually mahade the problem

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Speaker 1: worse because they told the world about this and exactly how,

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Speaker 1: exactly how it happened. Every yo yo with a grudge

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Speaker 1: poisoned pills. In the first month after this happened, two

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Speaker 1: hundred seventy cases of tampering. Oh my gosh, it was.

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Speaker 1: It was things as simple as somebody trying to kill

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Speaker 1: their spouse A lot of them did, or somebody they

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Speaker 1: didn't know, and then to cover their tracks, they all

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Speaker 1: fell followed the same path. I've got to cover my path.

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Speaker 1: So what do they do? They stick a bottle back

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Speaker 1: on the shelf and kill some other unsuspecting poor schlab.

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Speaker 1: It's a great way to cover your tracks, it is.

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Speaker 1: But it's freak and terrible, is what it is. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: murdering your spouse is kind of bad, too, ye, Murdering

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Speaker 1: anybody is bad. It's kind of bad. A lot of

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Speaker 1: these people, though, were not nearly as crafty about it

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Speaker 1: in terms of covering their tracks, because a bunch of

293
00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:19,040
Speaker 1: them got caught the Feds. They don't screw around about

294
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Speaker 1: this anymore. The puzz that went into effect are so stern.

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Speaker 1: There's a woman, what is her name, Stella Nickel. She

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Speaker 1: poisoned Eccedrian capsules with cyanide and killed her husband, and

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Speaker 1: then to again to cover her tracks, she poisoned some

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Speaker 1: other pills and stuck him in the bottom, stuck him

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Speaker 1: back on the shelf. She killed a woman named Susan

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Speaker 1: Snow and for those two deaths. She was sentenced to

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Speaker 1: ninety years in prison. Two people. Yea, she could potentially

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Speaker 1: have killed a lot more. Yeah, No, it's I'm not

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Speaker 1: I'm not questioning that sentence at all. It's just a

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00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,800
Speaker 1: great example of once they put that rule in effect,

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00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,920
Speaker 1: that they went after people like like a bulldog as

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Speaker 1: well they should. Yeah, as Devin had talked about earlier,

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Speaker 1: Johnson and Johnson through this whole thing came out like

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Speaker 1: the shining star. They're they're referenced in business books and

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Speaker 1: all this stuff about how to handle a consumer situation

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Speaker 1: because they were the first to institute the packaging regulations

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Speaker 1: on medication. Actually they did it before it became a regulation.

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Speaker 1: They just started doing it. They willingly pulled their products

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Speaker 1: from the shelves, They offered refunds, they pulled the hospitals

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Speaker 1: loved to use thailan, especially extra strength thailand all and

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Speaker 1: they yanked it all out of the hospitals willingly. They

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Speaker 1: didn't have to at the time that they did it.

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Speaker 1: Eventually the FDA came in and said, get that crap

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Speaker 1: out of here, but they had already gotten it out

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Speaker 1: of the stores and the hospitals. Um after things had

320
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:07,719
Speaker 1: settled down, and they went on a huge pr campaign.

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Speaker 1: They offered coupons, they had refunded people already, they were

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Speaker 1: they were advertising how they had all these protections on

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Speaker 1: their pill bottles. In the end, one year after this happened,

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Speaker 1: they had only lost ten percent of their market share

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Speaker 1: and they were at the top to beginning now and

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Speaker 1: as you know they are, they're still going strong now.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I really, really it would have been

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Speaker 1: right after this whole thing happened, you know, right after

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Speaker 1: the whole they're pulling them off the shelves. You know,

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Speaker 1: you know that James J. Stock had to be tanking.

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Speaker 1: What a great time to buy Johnson and Johnson stock.

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Speaker 1: It would have been, Well, when we go back in

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Speaker 1: our time machine, that's what we'll do. But yeah, and

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00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:49,840
Speaker 1: that might be part of this. Maybe the guy that

335
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:51,600
Speaker 1: did this did it because he wanted to make their

336
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:53,159
Speaker 1: stock tanks so you could buy a bunch of it.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I'm not going to well, this is that we're

338
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,359
Speaker 1: at the theory. So that is a possible theory that

339
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,400
Speaker 1: somebody did it to tank their stock. According to Joe,

340
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,240
Speaker 1: Let's do you have any you want to flesh that

341
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 1: outn't also just occurred to me just I would say

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00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,920
Speaker 1: that the yeah, it could have been a time traveler.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but I would say that the FBI

344
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:22,800
Speaker 1: needs to go back and just interview every stockbroker who yeah,

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00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:27,680
Speaker 1: this sounds good. Our first theory, most of our theories

346
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,479
Speaker 1: are going to be about specific people. The first theory

347
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,560
Speaker 1: is about a guy named James Lewis, and James Lewis

348
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,960
Speaker 1: is the name that you're gonna see more often than

349
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,520
Speaker 1: not when you do any reading on this. The reason

350
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 1: is is that he didn't do the smartest thing ever.

351
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:52,120
Speaker 1: When the story broke and everybody's freaking out, what does

352
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,399
Speaker 1: he do? He writes a letter to Johnson and Johnson

353
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Speaker 1: requesting a million dollars to make the Kelly stop and

354
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 1: by the way, don't bring the cops in, and then

355
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:09,359
Speaker 1: he signed his name to it, signed Bond. He didn't Joe,

356
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:15,440
Speaker 1: but Johnson and Johnson didn't play ball. They immediately turned

357
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:17,439
Speaker 1: over the letter to the authorities. I believe was the

358
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 1: FBI who figured out from the postmark where he was.

359
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:29,160
Speaker 1: He was in New York and they went hunting for him. Yeah. Well,

360
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,119
Speaker 1: they also had connected him to another letter that they

361
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 1: were looking into, which was a letter that he had

362
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 1: sent to Reagan threatening the life of the president because

363
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Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan was a president at the time. If Reagan

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00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,480
Speaker 1: didn't change the tax code, I probably should have sent

365
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Speaker 1: that to Congress. Huh, because the tax showed Yeah, that

366
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 1: that really makes sense. Well, Lewis and his wife, they

367
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,399
Speaker 1: were living in a hotel. I think it was a

368
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Speaker 1: short term stay hotel kind of situation if I understand

369
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:07,719
Speaker 1: it correctly. Yeah, when they got wind or somehow they

370
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 1: got wind that the FEDS were after him, and they

371
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 1: went on the lamb because they didn't want to get arrested. Weird,

372
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 1: I know, crazy, um Louis and his wife were on

373
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Speaker 1: the lamb. Eventually a tip came in eight weeks after

374
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:28,440
Speaker 1: they disappeared and he was arrested. His wife shortly thereafter

375
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 1: turned herself in, and of course the FBI went after

376
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 1: him full force because they were sure that he was

377
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 1: responsible for poisoning all of these people. In the end,

378
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 1: the only thing they could pin on him was the

379
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 1: extortion attempt a New York and not Chicago. Yeah, that's

380
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,199
Speaker 1: a very good point, and that does play into a

381
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 1: lot of the stuff about him. But he got sentenced

382
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 1: to twenty five years in prison. He served thirteen, but

383
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: he did get a I don't remember exactly what the

384
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 1: reason was he was parole, but he's a He's an

385
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 1: elderly guy at this point, and I don't know that

386
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 1: they thought he was a threat anymore. But he did

387
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 1: serve time for the extortion a loan. They're still trying

388
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,239
Speaker 1: to hang the crime on him. They are because you know,

389
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 1: guilty of one crime or one is good enough for

390
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:27,199
Speaker 1: the other. Right, No, no, it's not. Um. Here's the

391
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 1: problems with Louis being the perpetrator of this entire thing.

392
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Speaker 1: He was in New York. He was in New York.

393
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 1: He would have had to have somehow gotten to Chicago

394
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:45,439
Speaker 1: to drop off all the poison pills. Well, we know

395
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 1: from his wife's co workers that he showed up every

396
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,640
Speaker 1: day to have lunch with his wife for almost every day.

397
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 1: They don't remember him missing hardly ever, and it wasn't

398
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 1: ever a consecutive set of days. Now out thank you Google,

399
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:07,640
Speaker 1: I figured out it takes today twelve plus hours by

400
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 1: car to drive from New York to Chicago by today's cars.

401
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: By today's cars were much slower in those days, were

402
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 1: they get like thirty Well, they were a little faster

403
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 1: than that. But the point is that is a full

404
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 1: twenty four hours of time just in driving, never mind

405
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 1: having to stop sleep, eating, drop off the poison. Yeah,

406
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,199
Speaker 1: like smuggle them back onto the shelves exactly. He I

407
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 1: mean he, Okay, he could have flown there, But if

408
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,439
Speaker 1: this guy's living in a short term s r oh

409
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,120
Speaker 1: kind of situation, I don't think he's got a lot

410
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 1: of money for an airplane ticket. Plus at leads a

411
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 1: huge paper trail. It could have been under a false name,

412
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 1: but could they They probably it's probably too late to

413
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 1: check on this. But of the batch numbers, yeah, before

414
00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 1: any of those distributed in New York, because that's odd

415
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 1: actually where he would have had to buy them and

416
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: tamper with them. He's not going to try to Chicago

417
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 1: spend twenty four hours tampering with pills. I'm going to

418
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: have to say, no, I don't think, because I would

419
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 1: imagine that the Feds would have tracked that down and

420
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 1: if there was anything link, they'd a slap the charges

421
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 1: on him for it. I don't think so. Yeah, it

422
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 1: doesn't make much. I know they're still interested in this

423
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 1: guy as a suspect. Absolutely, and yeah, it's recently, is

424
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: two thousand eleven. They collected DNA and fingerprints from him

425
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 1: and his wife. They have buff gets, but they tried

426
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 1: to track it, you know, to see if they could

427
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: pin anything to him. Yeah, and there's they have nothing.

428
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 1: Here's why I'm sure they're wrong about Lewis. What was

429
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,199
Speaker 1: this is that he didn't need he didn't need to

430
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: really kill all these people to extore Johnson and Johnson.

431
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 1: He could have tampered with pills, put them on shelves

432
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,679
Speaker 1: at stores, put them towards the back so they're not

433
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 1: less likely to get. But then send your letter to

434
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: Johnson and Johnson demanding a million dollars, telling him you

435
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 1: know you sent me a million bucks, I'll tell you

436
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 1: which stores have got poisonous tail and all the shows exactly. No,

437
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: there was no need for him to actually and he

438
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 1: didn't send his letter until everybody had died. Pretty much.

439
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: His letter was a crime of opportunity. I mean, this guy,

440
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:23,479
Speaker 1: he was He ran scams, He did a lot of

441
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 1: shady things to make a box. And I am pretty

442
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 1: sure that that's the deal, is that it was another

443
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,680
Speaker 1: way for him. Hey, honey, maybe I can make a

444
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 1: couple of bucks off. They may not give me the million,

445
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: but maybe they'll give me something. Oh oops, I'm thirteen

446
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: years later. I'm just getting out of jail. Work out

447
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 1: so well for him. I really do think the fb

448
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: I should stop wasting their time in this guy, though,

449
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: I agree. Next up on our Theories slash suspect suspect list. Wow,

450
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 1: that was a cool pronunciation. I have no idea. Yeah,

451
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 1: the suct list. Yeah, yeah, I think I was trying

452
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 1: to say suspect and unsub at the same time because

453
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 1: I watched one of those TV shows that uses unsub

454
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: all the time. Yeah. No, it's a terrible thing to say.

455
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 1: But you're you know, you're not jerking my chin. No,

456
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 1: I really don't. Um it's unknown subject unsub. It's a

457
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 1: dumb thing. Okay, can we We're going to just leave

458
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: that behind. Yes, please, Let's talk about our next crazy

459
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: suspect yep, which is a lady by the name of

460
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 1: Lori Dan. Here's her story. This is really tragic and

461
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: sad is She was a woman who, on the of

462
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: May seven, first tried to set up a firebomb in

463
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 1: an elementary school, then set fire to the home of

464
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: people who she baby sat for. By the way, the

465
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: mom and the two kids were in the basement, though

466
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: they did get out. How old is uh she was?

467
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: I don't think. I think she was not quite thirty

468
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: years old when that happened. What else did she do? Well,

469
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: she went to an elementary school with guns. She shot

470
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 1: and killed one boy and wounded several other children. She

471
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 1: then left that school, talked her way into the house

472
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: that was nearby, and then shot one of the people

473
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: who lived there before everybody got out, and in the

474
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 1: end she shot herself. That's quite the spree. It is

475
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: the spree. And and well, okay, so this lady went

476
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: on a spree. Why is everybody trying to pin this

477
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: tragic story of her back to the titland five years later? Well,

478
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: let's walk through the points of why it could be her,

479
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: which is, first, she lived in the Chicago area at

480
00:29:53,840 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 1: the time. She had tried to poison people before. And

481
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 1: if we look at what she did on the day

482
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: she died, she took snacks and juice boxes and laced

483
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: them with arsenic and then some of them she mailed,

484
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: something she had done several days prior to her spree,

485
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: and mailed them to people. Others she delivered by hand,

486
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: trying to poison these folks. It didn't kill anybody, thankfully,

487
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 1: because the arsenic was so deluded and it tasted terrible

488
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: that nobody would consume the entire cookie or juice or

489
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,239
Speaker 1: whatever it might have been that she poisoned. But I mean,

490
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: not to speak ill of the dead, but this woman

491
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: who obviously had a mental condition, and I'm not being rude,

492
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: she did have a mental condition. She had some depression issues,

493
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: there were some things going on. But I just don't

494
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: see your organ being organized enough to have pulled off

495
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: the thailand On murders. I mean, well, also, you know,

496
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 1: she obviously knew how to make or procure or potassium cyanide.

497
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: Why bottled with arsenic? Arsenick is not actually that effective,

498
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: like a really weak dose of arsenic too, right, And

499
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: and whoever did this, they were pretty slick on getting

500
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: in and out of stores and nobody noticed anything was amiss.

501
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: She was not that good with her product tampering. Because

502
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: of the juice boxes, A bunch of people noticed that

503
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: the corners were pulled up and they were leaking. So

504
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: that's that's a giant problem obviously. I just I mean,

505
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: everything she did called attention to what she did, and

506
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: I just don't think she had the wherewithal to be

507
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: sneaky enough to get away with it the in between

508
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 1: the original poisonings and her crimes for here did she

509
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: was she institutionalized for any like the time? I don't

510
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: think she was. She she had been a lot of

511
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: stuff that happened prior to her spree. She had been married,

512
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 1: the marriage had fallen apart, she was in having a

513
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 1: really rough time, But I don't remember her having been

514
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: put into an institutional situation at all. Yeah, it just

515
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 1: seems odd. That's if she would she like to poison people,

516
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: that there'd be this five year gap between the original

517
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: poisonings and then this crime spree. Yeah no, And it's

518
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 1: being institutionalized would explain why there was a gap, But

519
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't remember seeing anything about her having

520
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: been locked up. But we'll go on to our next suspect,

521
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: which I'll be honest, this one's a bit of a

522
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: kookie outlandish one, but that's the Yeah. HiT's the unit

523
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 1: bomber ted Kazinski where uh in a prison? Uh? The

524
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: FBI collected DNA evidence from Kazinski several years ago because

525
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: they wanted to see if maybe he had been responsible

526
00:32:55,480 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: for this. It's understandable in the late seventies early eighties

527
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 1: he had been active in the Chicago area. I think

528
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 1: he had done a couple of things, a couple of

529
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 1: bombings or something like that. I can't remember what he

530
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: did in the early eighties, but they knew that's where

531
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: he was. Plus his family had a home in that area,

532
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: so they checked him. His specialty was sending letter bombs

533
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: to people. Yeah, I was gonna say it seems like

534
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 1: the m O was a little different there. Well, and

535
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: go figure. His DNA didn't match anything that they have,

536
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: and as whatever they have, he also singled out specific

537
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: people for his letter bombs for whatever reasons. Not that's

538
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: not justifiable ones, obviously, but he didn't just necessarily kill

539
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: people randomly. Yeah. Well, he vehemently denied that he was

540
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: involved with this. I mean, he's fest up to most

541
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: of what he did, but he vehemently denies that he

542
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: was ever involved in this. So that theory, I'm not

543
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: going to give it any I'm not going to give

544
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: it legs the bottom of the stack. Now we're going

545
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: to go on to our next suspect, and that is

546
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 1: a guy by the name of Roger Arnold. Roger Arnold,

547
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: This guy's story is really kind of sad. He was

548
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: a dockhead at the time in the Chicago area who

549
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 1: went out one night, had a couple of drinks, maybe

550
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: one too many, and made a couple of statements while

551
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 1: he was at the bar about the poisonings, which gave

552
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:28,800
Speaker 1: some people around him pause and go figure. Somebody called

553
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 1: the cops. Yeah, I don't know, but I don't know

554
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 1: exactly what he said either. I couldn't ever really pin

555
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: that down. But it doesn't really matter. The point is

556
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 1: he said something that alarmed folks. There were some and

557
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 1: when he got arrested, the cops started looking into him.

558
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: What do they find? Will they find some weak connections

559
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 1: between him and some of the victims. There was the

560
00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 1: connection between Mary Reiner and him. The connection between them

561
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: was that Arnold had worked at a jewel warehouse where

562
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: her father also worked. There was also the fact that,

563
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 1: according to some newspaper research, the police had gotten a

564
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 1: tip that his ex wife had been committed to a

565
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: psychiatric ward at a hospital which just happened to be

566
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 1: across the street from the store where Mary Reiner purchased

567
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: her taile at all, so this is two connections to her.

568
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 1: Oh and by the way, he was a do it

569
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: yourself chemist because when they searched his house they found

570
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 1: unregistered guns and chemicals and beakers and funnels. Oh my,

571
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 1: probably or something. I don't know exactly what he was doing,

572
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 1: but what they found was not what they wanted. And

573
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 1: by they, I mean the cops because he didn't have

574
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: potassium cyanide. He had potassium carbonate, which is harmless. I'm

575
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,320
Speaker 1: not gonna do anything to you know. I don't know

576
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 1: what he was using it for. And he never said.

577
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: This is a quote. This is the greatest quote ever

578
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 1: from somebody who's in trouble. I'm not saying what the

579
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 1: chemicals were used for, but it was nothing illegal. Yeah,

580
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 1: he got charged. He got charges for the weapons and

581
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: um assault. I don't I think the assault was something

582
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,240
Speaker 1: related to his wife, prior issues between he and his wife.

583
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 1: But he didn't take this so well. He got pretty

584
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: worked up and he carried a huge grudge about it

585
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 1: for a while. Uh he one of the invested interrogators

586
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 1: actually said that they quoted him as saying, I'd like

587
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 1: to be on the homic side of the guy that

588
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: turned me in for what he did to me. So

589
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,760
Speaker 1: he's got a huge beef. Whoever called him in Probably

590
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 1: forgiveness would have been a better path for him. It

591
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,280
Speaker 1: all turned up for him. I'm just looking up uses

592
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 1: of potassium chloride carbonate, carbonate. Sorry, okay, let me know

593
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: what you find. I'm going to China production, Okay, drawing agents.

594
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: You can use it to make grass jelly, which is

595
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 1: a Chinese and Southeast Asian food. It's kind of myriad

596
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 1: number of uses, but nothing. You can make meat or

597
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 1: wine with it. You can suppress fires, that's the thing. Yeah,

598
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,919
Speaker 1: that's uh. You see it in fire extinguishers. Yeah, yeah,

599
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 1: that's so. There are a couple of things. None of

600
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 1: them seem particularly interesting treacherous, No, not at all, but

601
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: it's interesting. What you know, I'm not going to tell

602
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: you what it is, but I'm not going to tell

603
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 1: you what to use it for. But it wasn't illegal,

604
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 1: Like why wouldn't you just tell him what it is? Then?

605
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, for all I know, the

606
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: guy was using it to cut coke. Yeah, I mean

607
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: he could have been doing stuff in this is that

608
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: as he was selling cocon on the side it's illegal.

609
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's just why you wouldn't say anything. Yeah, absolutely, Well,

610
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 1: it's not illegal to use a potassium carbonade until you

611
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,839
Speaker 1: actually cut the coke with it. Yes, it's true, until

612
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:22,959
Speaker 1: the cocaine comes into the equation. Technically. Joe's right. Well,

613
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,879
Speaker 1: here's where everything kind of creamed off track for him.

614
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,839
Speaker 1: There was a guy by the name of John Stanisha.

615
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: I want to say, I want to pronounce it anybody, okay.

616
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 1: Stanisha didn't know Arnold. He had been out, he'd had

617
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: some drinks. It was last call and he was leaving

618
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 1: the Lincoln Avenue bar on the eighteenth of June three,

619
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,320
Speaker 1: So this is a full year or not quite a

620
00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: year after the poisonings Arnold saw. I'm believed that he

621
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 1: was the same heavy set man that he remembered, probably

622
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 1: being the one that ratted him out of the dude

623
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: he was drunkenly saying stuff too. So he walked up

624
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 1: to him. He yelled at him, you turned me in

625
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 1: at a shot ing point blank. That's not great, and

626
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: killed him. Not smart, not the best idea. Arnold was

627
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 1: trying and convicted and sentenced to thirty years for murder

628
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: but there was never any strong connection to him for

629
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 1: the title and all. No, no, he was. It was

630
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 1: a matter he just he was opened his mouth at

631
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 1: the wrong place in time. He probably just made a

632
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: stupid joke. He gets drunk and it's like, oh yeah,

633
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 1: I did that to cover up my wife's murder. You

634
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: know that he knew the girl and was like, oh yeah,

635
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,919
Speaker 1: that girl was a blip blie blee and she got

636
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: what she deserved. And people like, wait, what, okay, hang

637
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 1: on here as simple as at okay, we're ready to

638
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: keep going. Yes, is the next one up on our

639
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: list of suspects? Isn't really it's a terrible name because

640
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: it's based on a profile. It is an unknown, anti social,

641
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 1: slash angry at society male, likely white. Let's be fair, though,

642
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 1: that's probably the profile of whoever did this. It is

643
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: typically guys are more likely to murder than women are,

644
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 1: and you have to be anti social and angry at

645
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 1: society to do something like this. I mean, the thing

646
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 1: that I shake my head at every time about this

647
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 1: profile is profiles work because they help you pin it

648
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 1: down on somebody. This profile is so vague it borders

649
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:59,280
Speaker 1: on useless. It was I was never nowhere near Chicago

650
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 1: at anytime. In Okay, here's here's the profile. The profile

651
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 1: of was of someone who was angry at society and

652
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: wanted to lash out at it. And they believed that

653
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 1: that person was at the time or possibly had received

654
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:23,800
Speaker 1: psychiatric care, so all of Chicago. This uh, this subject

655
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 1: could have also complained about how society was wronging him

656
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 1: and probably tried to contact someone that he considered to

657
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: be in a position of power. That person didn't recognize

658
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:42,760
Speaker 1: his communication or basically refused to listen to him crazy,

659
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 1: which made him angrier. The thailand all killer would have lived. Obviously,

660
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 1: I think we've established this in the Chicago area and

661
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 1: had a decent knowledge of at least the neighborhoods that

662
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 1: this took place in. This is where I go. This

663
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: is really a borderline profile. He had to own a

664
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 1: vehicle to get to the distances between each store up.

665
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,479
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I don't think that's true,

666
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:15,839
Speaker 1: but okay, I don't either could have taken a bus.

667
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 1: I could have happened over months. I mean, I mean,

668
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: there's a million ways to get around in Chicago. So

669
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 1: it's it's really it's it's funny. The things that actually

670
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: really stand out to me for this profile that I

671
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:38,800
Speaker 1: think have some validity are that they figure that this

672
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 1: person had to have worked in a job or industry

673
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 1: that gave access to potassium cyanide. Those are the gold

674
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 1: and silver mining industries, film processing at the time, or

675
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: some form of chemical manufacturing, which also means that it's

676
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 1: a low wage job, which would fuel the anger issue

677
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: that they talked about because they had said in this

678
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: profile making low wage, so therefore in kind of a

679
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 1: semi poverty situation. But why would it be a low

680
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 1: wage job and there's lots of good paying jobs, and

681
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 1: you know, the chemical industry and things like that, it

682
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 1: would be what somebody would consider a menial job. This

683
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 1: is what the profiler believes. Yes, yes, but I can

684
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: see somebody if I work in a chemical factory and yeah,

685
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,879
Speaker 1: I make an okay living, but this job sucks, then

686
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 1: they're angry because their lot in life is terrible to them.

687
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: I want to address the fact that somebody could walk

688
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 1: out of their job with something like that. That seems wrong.

689
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 1: That's a little scary, really scary. It's a good question

690
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 1: about how tightly they control that stuff seems like something

691
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 1: that's that lethal, maybe you put a lock on it.

692
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 1: I've got one thing to see it about that two words,

693
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 1: Aldrich James, A big Russian ball was walking out of

694
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:07,880
Speaker 1: CIA headquarters with grocery bags full cloth, secret documents. You know,

695
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,320
Speaker 1: it seems like they should have kept a lock on

696
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 1: that too. What do you think about this chemical company

697
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 1: over there? Yeah? Yeah, to think that, if this is right,

698
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:25,320
Speaker 1: this person could have at any time lashed out again

699
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 1: in some method using this poison. I think we're lucky

700
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: that they didn't. I don't know why it didn't happen again,

701
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 1: but it's scary that there's a good question as to

702
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 1: why it didn't happen again. Yeah, I don't know. Um.

703
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 1: I mean, it could be as simple as one of

704
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: the people And this isn't something that I've seen in

705
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:50,839
Speaker 1: the theories, and this is me just kind of spitballing.

706
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: But it's possible that one of the people that was

707
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: involved in this whole thing made themselves a victim. If

708
00:44:57,560 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: you think about it, one of the ways to be

709
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 1: remembered is to die with everybody else. Also a good

710
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 1: way to not get caught. What I was what I

711
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 1: was actually thinking, is that is that one of the

712
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 1: people here, the person who did it, wanted to kill

713
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 1: one person who was probably one of the early people

714
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:17,839
Speaker 1: to die, because you know, the question is is why

715
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 1: Thailand all why do you pick Thailand all from for

716
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 1: the delivery vehicle, and why is it? Why is it

717
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:26,399
Speaker 1: that a certain number of people die? But then it's

718
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 1: all quote from the shelves, and then you don't do

719
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,399
Speaker 1: it again. This is always Joe's theory, though with any

720
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 1: like big murder, it's always that one person was the

721
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 1: victim and then you just kind of did a couple

722
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 1: other people for fun. But the copycats proof that that's

723
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 1: actually what happened. There's there's the woman. Uh, there was

724
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,320
Speaker 1: a woman that oh gosh, I can't remember what pills

725
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 1: she poisoned, but she poisoned her husband and then stuck

726
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,439
Speaker 1: a couple of bottles back on the shelves to cover

727
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 1: her tracks. To me, it looked like her husband was

728
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 1: the first victim. People continually did that. Now with the

729
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 1: woman that I'm thinking of specifically, she and a lot

730
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 1: of these these people didn't know what they were doing,

731
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 1: and they left trace evidence behind, whether it was in

732
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:18,800
Speaker 1: the pills that were poisoned or stuff in their house,

733
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:22,800
Speaker 1: But I don't. I didn't see anything that said that

734
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: something like that was found in the victims houses. And

735
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:28,320
Speaker 1: you would think that if it was somebody who was

736
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 1: trying to kill that person and then covered up, there

737
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: would have been something discovered. Because people tend to be

738
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 1: sloppy and not think about all the angles, especially at

739
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,800
Speaker 1: a time when crime c s I Shows were not

740
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 1: the thing and everybody didn't consider themselves an expert. They

741
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 1: just didn't think anybody would know. Yeah, but it may

742
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 1: be some people are smarter than other people. You know,

743
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 1: criminals get busted pretty readily and fast because they tend

744
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 1: to be kind of dumb. But if somebody was a

745
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 1: little smarter than the average bear, then they could have

746
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:00,879
Speaker 1: probably covered their tracks a little more or just took

747
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 1: more time with it. Yeah, so let's let's let's let's

748
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: think about this for a second. Now, you want to

749
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: murder your say, or your your husband or your wife

750
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 1: for the life insurance money or whatever, and you have

751
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:15,319
Speaker 1: to take away. So if so, let's say you get

752
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 1: your wife, you're gonna kill your husband. Your husband has

753
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 1: chronic back pain. He's taking that he's taking pills pretty

754
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 1: much constantly for it, and like if it wasn't chronic

755
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,320
Speaker 1: back pain, say, for example, your husband has severe allergies

756
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 1: and he's having to take manatorial capsules for well, that's

757
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 1: your delivery vehicle. So if I was going to look

758
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: at this, because if you're planning on killing a specific person,

759
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,320
Speaker 1: you can't get these all out there on the shelves

760
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 1: and then into this guy's medicine cabinet waiting because by

761
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 1: the time, because I have ad my medicine cabinet, I

762
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 1: take it rarely because I rarely get a headache or

763
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 1: anything like that. So in other words, if you're planning

764
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 1: I'm murdering somebody with the title and all, you've got

765
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 1: to be pretty certain that he's gonna eat that he's

766
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 1: gonna eat the poison pill very shortly before the whole thing.

767
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 1: It's the news stands. So if I were the FBI,

768
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: I'd go back and I'd look at all the victims

769
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 1: and all their families and friends and loved ones and stuff.

770
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 1: Find out the victim of the chronic pain issues and

771
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:13,920
Speaker 1: ask yourself who wanted him to be dead? And I

772
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 1: think that we might have the person there that's that's

773
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 1: that's I mean, that's that's that's a course of action.

774
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, I imagine at this point, thirty some years later,

775
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 1: that course of action has probably been run dry a

776
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 1: hundred times. I'm sure. I don't know. I don't know.

777
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 1: But let's let's go to our final suspect. Our last

778
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 1: suspect is Johnson and Johnson's potential cover up. They did

779
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 1: have access to the pills. Yeah, yeah, exactly right. Because

780
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 1: remember we talked about here when we were going through this,

781
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,880
Speaker 1: is that Johnson and Johnson appeared from the beginning to

782
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,839
Speaker 1: be as much a victim of the entire thing as

783
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:04,239
Speaker 1: of people who died. And they they did seem to

784
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 1: do everything right. They were taking all the steps. Everybody

785
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:11,879
Speaker 1: thought they were great, and their pr folks were working overtime,

786
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,720
Speaker 1: and that might be what they wanted you to believe,

787
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 1: is that they were the innocent victims. Yeah, they a lot.

788
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 1: It's it's really interesting. I had never ever thought about this.

789
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 1: There's a guy by the name of Scott Barts. He

790
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 1: wrote a book called The Tailing All Mafia, and I'm

791
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 1: really sad I wasn't able to get ahold of it

792
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 1: ahead of time. And I'm gonna track this book down,

793
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 1: but he brings up some points about this story. They're

794
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 1: really hard to ignore and all in all rather disturbing.

795
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 1: First off, do you remember how I said that all

796
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,320
Speaker 1: those bottles of Thailand all were gathered up from the

797
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:54,320
Speaker 1: stores and and had to be tested. Johnson and Johnson

798
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 1: did the testing. It wasn't the FBI or the police

799
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 1: or some independent lab. It was Johnson and Johnson who

800
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 1: was doing it, which means that they could technically control

801
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:09,719
Speaker 1: the results that got published about how much was found. Well,

802
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 1: are you sure about that? Because I find it hard

803
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 1: to believe that the FBI would turn over criminal evidence

804
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 1: and not keep it in their in their own possession.

805
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:19,320
Speaker 1: I find that really really hard to believe. This is

806
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 1: based on if you want to use that at a trial,

807
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:24,399
Speaker 1: once it's once it's left the chain of evidence, it's

808
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 1: useless in a trial. I'm not going to disagree with

809
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 1: you at all, Joe. This is this is based on

810
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: the research that Barts is saying he did. He's saying

811
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:36,240
Speaker 1: that Johnson and Johnson was doing all of the testing

812
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 1: and that it wasn't a crime lab. I mean, it's conceivable,

813
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 1: but I still find it really hard to believe. So

814
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 1: they were the ones who did the recall, So they

815
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:46,280
Speaker 1: were the ones who had a lot of the pills,

816
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:49,399
Speaker 1: and that might be, Hey, we've already got them all here,

817
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 1: let us just test them and we'll save you the

818
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:55,800
Speaker 1: time and will incur No, I know, I know. I

819
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:57,760
Speaker 1: read an interview with this guy and which he said

820
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 1: that the FBI just chipped all this stuff straight to

821
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:04,280
Speaker 1: Johnson and Johnson who destroyed it. And but I'm really funny.

822
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 1: That hard to believe. It's it does make you lift

823
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:12,280
Speaker 1: and eyebrow. Here's the next thing. There was a victim.

824
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:16,280
Speaker 1: We talked about her a couple of times. Now, Mary Reiner. Yeah, okay,

825
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:20,399
Speaker 1: here's the thing with Mary. She had just come home

826
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 1: from the hospital because she had just had a baby. Yeah,

827
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 1: congratulations Mary. It's really depressing now, yeah, I know, it's

828
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: not not so happy. Thailand All was the major brand

829
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 1: used by hospitals for pain relief. It was their go

830
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 1: to and they liked the extra strength Thailand All. Mary

831
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:48,320
Speaker 1: didn't have in her home a bottle of extra strength

832
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:52,279
Speaker 1: Thailand All. She had a bottle of regular Thailand All,

833
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: which was her preferred Yeah, yeah, it was her. It

834
00:51:56,719 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 1: was the one that she liked. The pills were in

835
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:06,400
Speaker 1: that bottle. We're not regular strength. They were extra strength Thailand.

836
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 1: All Bart speculates that what happened is that she was

837
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 1: sent home from the hospital with a single days dosage

838
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 1: of extra strength Thailand all and said, well, I can

839
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:22,440
Speaker 1: keep him in this little thing and you gave me,

840
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 1: or I can just drop him in my tail at

841
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 1: all bottle. So she put him in the bottle that

842
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:29,319
Speaker 1: she already had in her home. How many pills were

843
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:31,600
Speaker 1: in the bottle there was There would have been a

844
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 1: day's dosage. I think it's one dose every four hours,

845
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:41,280
Speaker 1: typically four to six two pills every four to six hours,

846
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 1: twenty four hours. That's like ten pills, ten plus pills

847
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 1: somewhere in there, minus what she took, of course. But

848
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 1: the thing is, all of the pills that were found

849
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 1: and identified to have been laced with the potassium cyanide

850
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 1: we're in stores. No hospital stock was listed as tampered

851
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 1: and contaminated with Where the rest of the pills in

852
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,399
Speaker 1: her regular pill bottle, extra strength or regular, They were

853
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 1: all the extra strength. It was almost as if it

854
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:15,439
Speaker 1: was an empty bottle. So I do this. I don't

855
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 1: know if you guys do this or not, But like

856
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 1: when I go to the store, it's cheaper and more

857
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 1: effective to just buy like a big bottle of the pills.

858
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 1: And but you don't want to keep that in your

859
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:27,400
Speaker 1: medicine cabinet, so you keep that someplace ELTs, but you

860
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:30,759
Speaker 1: just keep refilling and it's just whatever bottle you had.

861
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 1: So I guess it's possible that she was doing that. Yeah,

862
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 1: and that's why I'm thinking that she must have well,

863
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 1: and that's why Bart says she must have taken the

864
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 1: hospital pills that she was given, purchased extra strength. I mean,

865
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:45,399
Speaker 1: she was pregnant. She was nine months pregnant. You kind

866
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 1: of bump it up a little bit. I feel like

867
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:49,359
Speaker 1: that's probably true. You know, we're getting a little more

868
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 1: pat a large bottle of extra strength, but she had

869
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:55,440
Speaker 1: her regular bottle leftover. Math I don't know, I don't know,

870
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:57,800
Speaker 1: I don't know. I never saw anything saying that that

871
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:00,320
Speaker 1: was in her house. But here's here's here's what the

872
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 1: problem is. Sure this begs to say that the tampering

873
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:14,239
Speaker 1: happened somewhere than other than between store and the consumers

874
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 1: from the hospital because she had pills from the hospital. Yeah,

875
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 1: I know, it's it raises issues because everything we've told

876
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 1: was somebody pulled him off the shelf, tampered and put

877
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:32,360
Speaker 1: him back bottle. No. I mean it's also possible that

878
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:35,400
Speaker 1: you grab an extra or a regular strength Helen instead

879
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:39,640
Speaker 1: of an extra strengthle pills. Yeah, and you're just throwing

880
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:42,839
Speaker 1: pills back in bottles and yeah, you know you got

881
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 1: a bunch of extra strength and a regular one. Yeah,

882
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:49,800
Speaker 1: that's that's absolutely Boston as I don't know, and also

883
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 1: Barts rose book, and he probably should know that he

884
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:54,800
Speaker 1: used to work for Johnson and Johnson. Yeah, he's a

885
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:58,840
Speaker 1: whistleblower and he was he was fired, but so he

886
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 1: might have a bit of a we might have a

887
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 1: bit of a bias there. But this does suggest that

888
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 1: it was the pills were tampered with, but before they

889
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 1: hit distribution exactly. It would suggest that except for like

890
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 1: what what Devon says, but also where did Barts get

891
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 1: that from? Was it is that actually an FBI report?

892
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 1: I don't know where. I don't know where Bart's got

893
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:20,919
Speaker 1: that information. That's why I wanted to get the book,

894
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:22,960
Speaker 1: and I haven't been able to track down a copy

895
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 1: of it yet. Johnson and Johnson believe I understand it's

896
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 1: a self published book. You probably got to go to

897
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:32,439
Speaker 1: his website. Well, that would explain why I couldn't find

898
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:35,320
Speaker 1: it in Amazon. Well, no, I was actually looking like

899
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 1: the library and places like that for free copies, just

900
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:40,760
Speaker 1: to be able to get electronic copy to read fast.

901
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:44,760
Speaker 1: But so a lot of problems. He Barts is basically

902
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 1: saying that what Johnson and Johnson has told us isn't

903
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 1: our right lie if this whole hospital poison connection is true.

904
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 1: The other thing that Barts says is that there is

905
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:05,760
Speaker 1: illusion between the f d A and Johnson and Johnson

906
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 1: that is specifically related to evidence that was given by

907
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 1: the f d A about how long it would take

908
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:20,600
Speaker 1: for the potassium cyanide to corrode and break through the

909
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 1: walls of the capsule. It's probably pretty caustic. Yeah, he

910
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 1: has said that their timeline of it, he's hinted at

911
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 1: that they may have fudged it so that it said

912
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:38,920
Speaker 1: that it acted faster than it really could have. In

913
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 1: other words, he's saying that Johnson and Johnson said, oh yeah, no,

914
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:45,240
Speaker 1: you'd be able to tell the pills would be rotting

915
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:47,799
Speaker 1: away in a matter of days. I'm making this part

916
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:50,480
Speaker 1: up a presumption of just using this as an example,

917
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 1: where an actual fact, it would be a matter of

918
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 1: weeks before the corrosion would be enough to destroy the pills. Sure,

919
00:56:57,120 --> 00:56:58,759
Speaker 1: I think the timeline that you've just used it is

920
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:00,960
Speaker 1: probably off. But yeah, yeah, no, and I know that

921
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 1: timeline is off, but I'm just using that. That's what

922
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:07,160
Speaker 1: he's saying, because he's saying Johnson and Johnson put that

923
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:11,080
Speaker 1: out so that they could say that it wasn't in

924
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 1: the pill before it left their hands. It's important to

925
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:24,120
Speaker 1: note that the FBI initially didn't think that the bottles

926
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 1: that had the poison pills had been opened before they

927
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 1: reached those consumers. So the FBI was curious. There was

928
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 1: a DA who looked into this but got shut down.

929
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 1: They didn't they had some reasonably the bottles had not

930
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: been opened before they were bought. That is according to him, yes,

931
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 1: according to parts. How could they possibly know that, because

932
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 1: but by the time they have examined the bottles, the

933
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 1: bottles have been opened. I know that they pulled from

934
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 1: the shelves other ones that were but even that, I mean,

935
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 1: but if they tell yeah, if it's a plastic snap

936
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:05,840
Speaker 1: lid and that's it, it's really hard to take understand that,

937
00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:07,360
Speaker 1: and the only way they were able to have to

938
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:10,560
Speaker 1: find out that those bottles had poison pills and was

939
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 1: to open them. Right. Yeah, well but you know, I

940
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:15,840
Speaker 1: guess the presumption is right is that you get you

941
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:18,160
Speaker 1: have you in the lab, you get all these bottles

942
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 1: and you go, Okay, bottle one open, Okay, it was sealed.

943
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:25,400
Speaker 1: Test all the pills and nothing in there. Okay, cool,

944
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 1: bottle too open, Okay it was sealed. Oh there's poison

945
00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 1: and knees. Right. But I again, I have literally never

946
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:36,600
Speaker 1: encountered a pill bottle that didn't have the five different

947
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 1: millions of seals, So I have no idea what I

948
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:44,200
Speaker 1: remember the old ones where it was with the cotton

949
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:46,600
Speaker 1: that's in there to keep the pills from rattling around

950
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 1: so they don't destroy themselves. Yeah, that used to be

951
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:53,240
Speaker 1: in It was kind of a tube of cotton that

952
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 1: was bent in the middle. So let's just say it

953
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 1: was I don't know, four inches long, so it folded

954
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:00,760
Speaker 1: half was a two inch strip because you could tell

955
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:05,160
Speaker 1: that a machine pushed it into the bottle to fold

956
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:08,560
Speaker 1: it and then pulled back out, so it could be

957
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:13,400
Speaker 1: as simple as well, this is weird that cotton is

958
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 1: just jammed into the bottle and doesn't look like it

959
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 1: should be. So I don't know. I mean, this is

960
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:24,000
Speaker 1: speculation on my part as much as yours, But that's

961
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:26,880
Speaker 1: the only thing that I can guess. The thing that

962
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 1: I think that we should also bring up so that

963
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:35,000
Speaker 1: folks understand some of why maybe there's issues with what

964
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:40,040
Speaker 1: Barts is saying is how Thailand all was produced because

965
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 1: there was the manufacturing plant, like we said before, Pennsylvanian

966
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 1: Puerto Rico, and they made the raw stuff what was

967
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:53,440
Speaker 1: in the middle or what was in the capsule. They

968
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:59,439
Speaker 1: then sent that in a drum to another plant where

969
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 1: that plant put it in the capsule, put him in

970
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:06,640
Speaker 1: the bottle, and then shipped them. What a tedious job

971
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:13,280
Speaker 1: it would be filling those capsules. Now, yeah, yeah, one

972
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:17,959
Speaker 1: guy with a little with a little spoon at a time.

973
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:24,040
Speaker 1: But so it's it's possible that at that second step

974
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 1: where the mix was put into the capsule, it could

975
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:32,800
Speaker 1: have been poisoning inserted at that point. Now I don't

976
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 1: I don't buy what Barts is saying. Yeah, he sounds

977
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:39,560
Speaker 1: kind of like a disgruntled X employee. He's a whistleblower

978
01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 1: and he seems to have taken on a crusade against

979
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 1: the pharmaceutical industry in general. Yeah, and also I just

980
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 1: don't see how I don't see how that it could

981
01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:53,840
Speaker 1: have been tainted at this particular point, at that that

982
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:57,400
Speaker 1: production facility or that packaging facility and then wind up

983
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:00,640
Speaker 1: only in a very small, small area of Chicago. I'm

984
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 1: not going to disagree with that at all. That again,

985
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 1: that's the problem. But I think that's the problem with

986
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:08,960
Speaker 1: a lot of these conspiracy theories is that it is

987
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:14,720
Speaker 1: cause and effect, a focused to be focused without looking

988
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 1: at all the surrounding factors. That, unfortunately is all of

989
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:27,120
Speaker 1: our potential suspects. I I don't know which one to

990
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 1: go to. I mean, unfortunately, that silly FBI profile is

991
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:38,600
Speaker 1: the most likely. But yeah, but we'd he would have

992
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 1: continued it for a lot longer, probably, you would think, unless,

993
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:44,840
Speaker 1: as you said, that person was locked up for some reason.

994
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 1: Is a psychiatry or just a prison scenario. Yeah, I'm

995
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:52,400
Speaker 1: still liking the idea that it was actually somebody who

996
01:01:52,520 --> 01:01:54,280
Speaker 1: knew one of the original people who died and wanted

997
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:56,880
Speaker 1: to kill them. And I would say, FBI, go find

998
01:01:56,920 --> 01:02:00,640
Speaker 1: out which victim had chronic pain issues, find out who

999
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:04,960
Speaker 1: wanted to feel that person, and there you go. Well,

1000
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:08,360
Speaker 1: if you are listeners have any theories of your own,

1001
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:11,400
Speaker 1: feel free to share those with us. If you go

1002
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:14,640
Speaker 1: to our website, which is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com,

1003
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 1: you can leave a comment. On the website. Of course,

1004
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:22,000
Speaker 1: we will have links to some of our research as

1005
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:25,360
Speaker 1: well as this and every other episode that we've had

1006
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:28,680
Speaker 1: for you to listen to. Their Most folks don't listen

1007
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:30,920
Speaker 1: to it on our website. A lot of folks go

1008
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:34,520
Speaker 1: to iTunes. If you're at iTunes, do please take the

1009
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:37,440
Speaker 1: time to leave a comment and a rating that helps

1010
01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 1: other folks find us. If you're not using iTunes, you're

1011
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:44,160
Speaker 1: probably streaming us through one of the bazilion services, whether

1012
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:48,439
Speaker 1: it be um, Stitcher or anybody else that's out there.

1013
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:53,360
Speaker 1: If you're using one of those fantastic follow the feed,

1014
01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:57,760
Speaker 1: you can always go ahead and get in contact with

1015
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 1: us directly if you want, by sending gets an email.

1016
01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:06,160
Speaker 1: That email address is Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com.

1017
01:03:07,160 --> 01:03:09,640
Speaker 1: You can find us on social media, which means that

1018
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:12,760
Speaker 1: you can find us on Twitter, which is Thinking Dropped

1019
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:16,600
Speaker 1: the g Sideways on Twitter, or of course we're also

1020
01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:19,800
Speaker 1: on Facebook, so we've got the group and the page

1021
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:26,400
Speaker 1: which super crazy busy. We of course also have, as

1022
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:30,000
Speaker 1: Devin likes to say, merch. We've got some shirts and

1023
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:33,680
Speaker 1: some other stuff like that available for the show. If

1024
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:36,200
Speaker 1: you like that, you can always go to our website

1025
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:38,960
Speaker 1: and right there on the right hand sidebar you'll see

1026
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:42,360
Speaker 1: a link to Zazzle, which links directly to our store.

1027
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:44,880
Speaker 1: If you like the shirt, you want a shirt, buy

1028
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:47,640
Speaker 1: a shirt. It's fun. I still actually need to buy

1029
01:03:47,640 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 1: a shirt. Yeah you do. There's a donate button there too,

1030
01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:54,320
Speaker 1: just as a fun little Oh yeah, that's right. We

1031
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:56,880
Speaker 1: do have that on there, and I keep forgetting Uh

1032
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:00,960
Speaker 1: think if I bought it, thinking side shirt, I could

1033
01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:06,400
Speaker 1: wash that shirt? Yeah that shirt? Brother, Yeah yeah, please

1034
01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:10,400
Speaker 1: do alright, gang, Well, that is all of the pertinent

1035
01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:12,520
Speaker 1: facts and details that I can think that we have

1036
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:15,280
Speaker 1: to give to everybody. We're going to go ahead and

1037
01:04:15,360 --> 01:04:18,160
Speaker 1: wrap this one up and we will talk to you

1038
01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:31,560
Speaker 1: next week. Everybody. Bye, guys. Do you have a ton all?

1039
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:32,360
Speaker 1: I got a headache,