Speaker 1: Wording. Today's episode contains spoilers for the first episode of
Speaker 1: a Night of the Seven Kingdos on hbo X be warned.
Speaker 2: Hello and name it is Jason gets up and I'm
Speaker 2: Mercy Nike and.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to xt revision of the podcast where we
Speaker 1: dive peping your babe. Joe's movie is kind like a
Speaker 1: pop culture even Myra Mancus. We're reading three episodes because
Speaker 1: there's on Saturday.
Speaker 3: In today's episode, guys, it's our first Ravens report.
Speaker 2: The cow We're coming to you from Western US. You
Speaker 2: like that one?
Speaker 1: That's good? Huh, that's a that's a raven sound I
Speaker 1: was looking at the hawk like feel like, yeah, we
Speaker 1: don't need to be special.
Speaker 2: How about like a how about like a quaw? Like
Speaker 2: I feel like a.
Speaker 3: Raven book, but you know, generally there's a bird going around.
Speaker 3: I'm a crow fan, honestly. Okay, guys, who has a
Speaker 3: raven soundboard send it to the discord.
Speaker 2: We'll use it next time.
Speaker 3: But during Raven's Report, we're gonna be checking out how
Speaker 3: the first episode of the Incredible Night of the Seven.
Speaker 2: Kingdoms has landed with the audience. We know Georgia arm
Speaker 2: Martin has been out here talking about it and at
Speaker 2: Hollywood Reporter. So we'll be bringing in a Boo to
Speaker 2: talk alongside me and Jason on that, and we're gonna
Speaker 2: unpack some of the central themes to the show, a
Speaker 2: little bit of the law and why it's hitting for
Speaker 2: us in the way it is.
Speaker 1: But first, let's talk about some of the early reactions
Speaker 1: to this show. I think you know, Rosie and I
Speaker 1: have been very interested because it is such a tonal
Speaker 1: shift when I first saw it, if people are gonna
Speaker 1: like it. We open with a poop joke, like there's
Speaker 1: a lot of poop in it, and it seems, at
Speaker 1: least on the critical side, that shift in tone is
Speaker 1: being received positively, very strong on Rotten Tomatoes thus far
Speaker 1: so before on Metacritic. Rosie Boo, your thoughts about the
Speaker 1: tunnel shift and how did you acclimate right away or
Speaker 1: did it take a little bit of time? Oh, Boo,
Speaker 1: let's start with you.
Speaker 4: It took me some time, and I'll be honest, it
Speaker 4: probably took me a second rewatch for me to fully
Speaker 4: enjoy this episode. I enjoyed the episode on the first watch,
Speaker 4: but I walked away a little more mixed, a little shocked,
Speaker 4: at the tone and a little confused that this was
Speaker 4: a Game of Throne spin off, that this was a
Speaker 4: Game of Thrones property. But when I rewatched it, and
Speaker 4: as I sat down to write out our script for
Speaker 4: today's conversation and really sat with my feelings, I've come
Speaker 4: around to appreciating the shift in tone and some of
Speaker 4: the comedy as well.
Speaker 2: I actually love that you are coming out from that
Speaker 2: space of boo, because I think that is really the
Speaker 2: audience in space. I think a lot of people in
Speaker 2: that moment where Dunk thinks about his great mission that
Speaker 2: he's gonna go and picks up his sword and they
Speaker 2: play the theme and then you know, you get that
Speaker 2: crazy poop joke, like why is he pooping that way?
Speaker 2: Why is this but like pooping it out like it's
Speaker 2: a vomit machine. It is a very different vibe. But yes,
Speaker 2: I too, obviously I was really into the tone. I'm
Speaker 2: ready for something different. I think that there is something
Speaker 2: really interesting about taking something so certifiably popular, even in
Speaker 2: its continued version of House of the Dragon, that shit's
Speaker 2: still doing crazy numbers. They could have just said, hey,
Speaker 2: maybe this isn't the right fit. We know what's right
Speaker 2: and I think this is actually how you expand a
Speaker 2: universe is by looking at the different layers and complexities
Speaker 2: and perspectives that allow us to enter the world from
Speaker 2: different angles. And to me that I have seen in
Speaker 2: the same way actually as a boo experience that people
Speaker 2: now a week later now dming me and going okay, wait,
Speaker 2: I think I get it. Like, I actually think there's
Speaker 2: something very transgressive and subversive about a period piece from
Speaker 2: the Eye of the Pauper. But it's not like, oh,
Speaker 2: Charles Dickens, you're in Pulverty, everything's terrible. It's you can
Speaker 2: actually interact with people and talk to them and meet
Speaker 2: different kinds of people and walk your way up. It's
Speaker 2: an aspirational story and I think that's really cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it took me, you know, probably on
Speaker 1: first watch, probably to the second episode to fully acclimate
Speaker 1: and then but I was in the groove by the
Speaker 1: time Lionel Barathian, Yeah, because of that is such a
Speaker 1: vibe and the performance is so good. But it reminded me,
Speaker 1: you know, my reaction in terms of tone, and I
Speaker 1: agree with you on rewatch. I'm on like third or
Speaker 1: fourth rewatch now now it's like you get it. I
Speaker 1: get it right away, you know, but it took a second.
Speaker 1: And it reminds me of when I first started watching
Speaker 1: when Succession first came out, and I would say through
Speaker 1: the first four to five episodes, I was a little
Speaker 1: confused because the cinematic style was drama, right. It was
Speaker 1: shot like a drama, but the tone was like dark comedy,
Speaker 1: sharp comedy, and I was expecting the big short like
Speaker 1: because that was the pedigree, right, So I was expecting
Speaker 1: this more broad comedy with potentially cutaways and like breaking
Speaker 1: of the fourth wall and some wilder stuff. And it
Speaker 1: was shot like very again, like very much like a
Speaker 1: family drama, and I didn't get it right away, all
Speaker 1: this rack focus and different things they were doing. Uh.
Speaker 1: And it's the same with this, like it the undercut
Speaker 1: of the the subversion of the Game of Thrones theme,
Speaker 1: I think is that with the poop which we talk
Speaker 1: about work right now, I guess is uh, you know,
Speaker 1: like a cannon shout across the bow. They're basically, hey,
Speaker 1: this is not the Game of Thrones that you're expecting,
Speaker 1: so be ready. And I think on first watch, I
Speaker 1: was like WHOA. I was taken aback, much like George
Speaker 1: who I wrote, what is this typing and his typing
Speaker 1: in his DOS computer? What is this? Where did this
Speaker 1: come from? I don't know if we really need this shit,
Speaker 1: literal shit, but but I really liked it for whatever reason.
Speaker 1: And then I later explains so in the script it reads,
Speaker 1: Duncan here is the hero theme in his head, which
Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily going to be the Iron Thrones theme at
Speaker 1: that moment. All we're trying to say is Dunk's not
Speaker 1: a hero yet. He's just a very nervous kid with
Speaker 1: a nervous stomach. So that I was much like George,
Speaker 1: I was like, whoa, And immediately my mind goes to
Speaker 1: I wonder what people are going to think? What was
Speaker 1: your what were your thoughts?
Speaker 2: I think something really interesting about what Ira said. That
Speaker 2: is like again, I actually think that speed to the
Speaker 2: layers of this show, because the truth is that while
Speaker 2: it seems like it's just a funny poop joke with
Speaker 2: like projectile poop, that is not the way that the
Speaker 2: showrunners are looking at it. They are saying, this is
Speaker 2: a kid who the person who raised him just died.
Speaker 2: This brutal yet loving man just died, and yeah, he
Speaker 2: wants to go on a mission, but first he's got
Speaker 2: to poop out whatever bad snake he just cooked himself
Speaker 2: on this fire after digging up his old man. There
Speaker 2: is a level of care and thought here that I
Speaker 2: think is coming through, and it's also allowing us this
Speaker 2: new tone, is allowing us these moments that are speaking
Speaker 2: to people in a way that I personally feel like
Speaker 2: we have rarely gotten to see, maybe since like originally
Speaker 2: Bran and the Three Eyed Raven and the kind of
Speaker 2: that mystical moment where everyone just goes, oh wait, we're
Speaker 2: buying in, like there's magic in this world. There was
Speaker 2: something in the sequence where and I've been talking about
Speaker 2: this with you guys all week, but so many people
Speaker 2: have been sharing it with me, so many people in
Speaker 2: our discord, so many people online. The moment when Egg
Speaker 2: tells Dunk that they are the only ones who've seen
Speaker 2: the star and so there's this clip of Egg with
Speaker 2: this little smile and Dunk laying in the background saying,
Speaker 2: so the luck is ours alone. There is something hopeful
Speaker 2: and magical and not terrible and not brutal in that
Speaker 2: that I think can only really exist in a show
Speaker 2: like this. So the poop and the resetting of boundaries
Speaker 2: and the line I loved, which is basically one of
Speaker 2: Dunk's first lines, Oh no, stop, mister rapist, where you're
Speaker 2: like also establishing like, hey, probably not going to have
Speaker 2: that thing that you guys have all been complaining about.
Speaker 2: They do a lot of really silly little things that
Speaker 2: seem like light comedy moments, but I think are actually
Speaker 2: establishing a new status quo for this show and this
Speaker 2: space within it. Aboo, Like, what do you think out
Speaker 2: on it?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 2: You've done your rewatches and you're sort of working out
Speaker 2: how it's setting up the rest of the season.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm a little softer on it now, but I
Speaker 4: will say the comedy and the human isn't exactly working
Speaker 4: for me even on a rewatch. I appreciate the lighter tone.
Speaker 4: I appreciate the more heartfelt themes and the smaller scale story.
Speaker 4: I don't mind any of those things, but I think
Speaker 4: the like, for example, I find the cutaways to Sir Arlen,
Speaker 4: you know, like slapping Young Dunk or cutting cutting away
Speaker 4: to like a one off gag with Young Dunk. I
Speaker 4: find those like unnecessary, Like I don't find those funny
Speaker 4: at all. They kind of feel weird to me. Maybe
Speaker 4: that's just not the kind of comedy that makes me laugh.
Speaker 4: But I didn't laugh at any any of those quick
Speaker 4: cutaways and flashbacks, So I think the balance of comedy
Speaker 4: is not working for me quite yet. Like the poop
Speaker 4: felt like over the top for me, I think you
Speaker 4: could have still subverted Game of Thrones without it.
Speaker 1: Was very loud, juicy.
Speaker 3: It was very though I will say, very medievally correct.
Speaker 2: I feel like I have a littly.
Speaker 3: Jason, what were you going to say about the cutbacks,
Speaker 3: because I'm really interested.
Speaker 1: Well, let's let's hold that for themes, because I do
Speaker 1: have some ideas regarding the what it says about the
Speaker 1: perspective of this show, which is as as Ira has
Speaker 1: talked about, and as George has talked about, and as
Speaker 1: is evident for the most part in watching this episode
Speaker 1: in the entire series, the show is told from Dunk's perspective.
Speaker 1: Everything you're seeing is what Dunk sees and how he
Speaker 1: experiences it and thoughts that he's having in the moment.
Speaker 1: And so I'm eager to talk about what those cutaways
Speaker 1: might mean with that in the let's talk about I mean,
Speaker 1: we kind of have so we you mentioned this Hollywood
Speaker 1: Reporter episode. Let's talk about Oh is this Hollywood Reporter
Speaker 1: report an interview with George Martin. I think is probably
Speaker 1: his most intensive interview ever, or maybe in certainly, and
Speaker 1: in it he goes scorched earth at times, very praiseful
Speaker 1: of a Night of the Seven Kingdoms. Your reactions to
Speaker 1: George's Hollywood Reporter interview?
Speaker 4: I think my first reaction staying with the Knight of
Speaker 4: the Kingdoms for a second here before we talk about
Speaker 4: other things. Yeah, is I am excited to see that
Speaker 4: the plan with the show is yearly seasons. Season two
Speaker 4: is slated to come out in twenty twenty seven. It'll
Speaker 4: cover the second novella, presumably season three and twenty twenty
Speaker 4: eight covered the third novella.
Speaker 1: What scares me is then.
Speaker 4: We're out of material unless Martin can write more novellas
Speaker 4: than the Duncan Egg universe. We will be working, you know,
Speaker 4: quote unquote offscript for season four and beyond, and I'm
Speaker 4: curious how that's going to affect the show. I know
Speaker 4: Martin has shared ideas with the showrunner Ira for other
Speaker 4: Duncan Egg stories that he's just been sitting on for
Speaker 4: many many years, and I'm sure those will inspire futures,
Speaker 4: future seasons.
Speaker 1: But that's my first.
Speaker 4: Question that comes up after reading this interview. What happens
Speaker 4: the show? What happens when we run out?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm I guess I'm less It's a good question, right,
Speaker 1: I'm less worried about that because I think there's talented
Speaker 1: people out many talented writers out there that could pick
Speaker 1: up the slack. And I also feel like with regards
Speaker 1: to Game of Thrones, the original series, which I think
Speaker 1: everyone agrees, you can kind of feel the part where
Speaker 1: they ran at us. Yes, yes, I think that there
Speaker 1: are extenuating circumstances, namely that the showrunners had been like
Speaker 1: ensconced in fucking Iceland in Northern Ireland for like ten
Speaker 1: months of the year for the last six years at
Speaker 1: that point, and we're burnt out and there's all of
Speaker 1: which is to say, I think that can be managed
Speaker 1: better this time around. But I agree with you certainly
Speaker 1: a concern and I and I agree with you also
Speaker 1: that you know George has a lot of plans for
Speaker 1: further Duncan eggs and who knows.
Speaker 3: I love I just love George, like I honestly straight
Speaker 3: would it be a Game of Ferns release if George
Speaker 3: wasn't doing like an outrageous blog post or interview. I'm actually, like,
Speaker 3: really impressed that this was a thhr.
Speaker 2: Interview and not just like a massive blog post.
Speaker 3: I think that that proves how much he loves this
Speaker 3: show and how much he really is really supportive of it.
Speaker 2: I think for me, you know, I expect George to
Speaker 2: do like a little sassy chat, so I was not
Speaker 2: that shocked by any of the stuff in it. I
Speaker 2: think the thing I found most interesting was just seeing
Speaker 2: the depth and breadth of what HBO has tried to
Speaker 2: do with this universe and whether or not it's working
Speaker 2: or not working. Like I would have loved to see
Speaker 2: the CE Sick Snake Show, which was going to be
Speaker 2: a live action show, but now they're saying it might
Speaker 2: be an animated show, which I kind of love the
Speaker 2: idea of. And I think after the tone switch and
Speaker 2: the production quality of Duncan Egg, I think they could
Speaker 2: be building something here that actually is a really interesting,
Speaker 2: unique and original shared universe. Because if you allow other
Speaker 2: people now to tell stories within this world based on
Speaker 2: George's law, you could really be in an incredible space
Speaker 2: that Eggon's Conquest talking about it being this kind of
Speaker 2: giant Dune sized feature film. Obviously, we know we talked
Speaker 2: about the John Snow series being scrapped, but I love
Speaker 2: an Aria in Esos, So for me, it was just
Speaker 2: kind of very interesting to see post the original DMB
Speaker 2: Game of Thrones go how HBO is still kind of
Speaker 2: trying to cultivate this world but imagine it in a
Speaker 2: different way. And I also have to say, as somebody
Speaker 2: who is a writer who often struggles with writing, I
Speaker 2: like George's honesty about how he struggles to write Winds
Speaker 2: of Winter and forgetting like finishing those books.
Speaker 3: A lot of people, like a lot of people would
Speaker 3: be like I'm doing it, like I'm Georgia R. Martin, like,
Speaker 3: don't worry about it. But He's always just like, hey,
Speaker 3: it's kind of hard. And I love these and I
Speaker 3: don't really want to give them over to Brandon Sanderson
Speaker 3: or whoever else you guys want me to give them to.
Speaker 2: I just want to finish them when I can, but
Speaker 2: imagine if I can't finish them, which is the ultimate
Speaker 2: feeling of that we all have every time we write.
Speaker 2: So I was once again just endeared to one of
Speaker 2: our famous fantasy eccentrics.
Speaker 1: I was endeared as well, and it left me, especially
Speaker 1: the parts where he you know, basically lays out his
Speaker 1: relationship with House to the Dragon showrunner Ryan Condall basically
Speaker 1: saying like there is a relationship. It That part made
Speaker 1: me sad and it made me think, you know, TV
Speaker 1: is a writer's medium. Usually it is the writers who
Speaker 1: are in who are running the thing. The showrunner is
Speaker 1: that can that can change and shift. But usually like
Speaker 1: David Chase and the Sopranos, or you know, Matthew Weiner
Speaker 1: with mad Ment, like Phoebe waller Bridge, it's the it's
Speaker 1: the person who wrote the script, who is the showrunner,
Speaker 1: who is you know, the boss of the director and
Speaker 1: on down the line or as you go to film,
Speaker 1: the director is the tour for the most part. I
Speaker 1: mean there's pleased shift, you know, producer power struggles and whatnot,
Speaker 1: but it's the director who who drives the ship. Now,
Speaker 1: the difference here is that in neither medium are neither
Speaker 1: medium is really calibrated for like a superstar writer like
Speaker 1: that's like not a real that's that's a tough thing.
Speaker 1: And it makes me think of sports, like I think
Speaker 1: with Jory in the relationship, I have no idea what
Speaker 1: happened there. I have empathy, I think for I mean,
Speaker 1: I understand when you're adapting stuff, the realities of stuff
Speaker 1: has to change at the same time, Like it's hard
Speaker 1: when you have the touchstone guy who means so much
Speaker 1: to the story, you want to keep him worded. And
Speaker 1: it reminds me of sports, you know, Like I think
Speaker 1: that a lot of being a coach of like a
Speaker 1: sports team is not necessarily drawing up like these incredible
Speaker 1: plays or managing what to do coming out of timeouts
Speaker 1: or keeping track of fouls. It's like management of personalities.
Speaker 1: And I think with George, you've just got to manage
Speaker 1: him like some You've got to be like, he's like
Speaker 1: the star player, he's like Lebron right, and so you
Speaker 1: just got to make sure he's somehow, some way. The
Speaker 1: job is like not just the shot list and the
Speaker 1: production and the locations, it's like, how, what's george mood?
Speaker 1: What's a feeling? Today's his what's his mood today? What's
Speaker 1: his mind? Exactly? And so I don't know that that
Speaker 1: didn't happen. All I'm saying is I think that that's
Speaker 1: that's a big part of it, and that's the way
Speaker 1: I read a lot of that. It's sad that the
Speaker 1: relationships has moved to that level, especially because it's damaging
Speaker 1: to the project, which I think, yeah, and I know
Speaker 1: and I think now is going to get is going
Speaker 1: to be watched through filtered lenses by probably a large
Speaker 1: segment of the fan base because they, yeah, and and
Speaker 1: the writers who worked really hard on it are going
Speaker 1: to get blamed for not understanding the vision and when
Speaker 1: that's not when that's not how the business works either,
Speaker 1: that's not exactly. So I feel bad for for everybody.
Speaker 4: The YouTube slap his fear is going to be all
Speaker 4: over season three. You know, George wouldn't have wanted this.
Speaker 4: George would have gone a different direction. This wasn't George's vision,
Speaker 4: et cetera, et cetera, and that just hurts the property ultimately.
Speaker 2: It's also not usually actually about representing what George would
Speaker 2: have wanted. Like you said, YouTube slop discourse, rage bait.
Speaker 3: I think it's a shame because, as we know, I'm
Speaker 3: a huge House of the Dragon fan.
Speaker 2: I thought season two was unbelievable. Love. I love the
Speaker 2: changes that they've made because I do think that you
Speaker 2: need to make them to make the show hit. In
Speaker 2: the same way, I am interested to see what happens
Speaker 2: in season three and how different it is. But you
Speaker 2: know what the good thing is, as the Hollywood Report
Speaker 2: article kind of said, like at some point George was
Speaker 2: brought back on. We haven't talked about it yet, but
Speaker 2: hopefully this is like two big guys with big thoughts
Speaker 2: and they can work it out, you know, because that's
Speaker 2: two of the biggest creatives in the game. So I'm
Speaker 2: interested to see if there can be a piece reckoning
Speaker 2: or olive branch before season three comes out.
Speaker 1: And also, you know, one of the things that was
Speaker 1: in the Hollywood Reporter article that was notable to me
Speaker 1: and I haven't seen too many people discuss was the
Speaker 1: fact that the big dragon battle that it seemed like
Speaker 1: we're were leading up to in last season of House
Speaker 1: the Dragon didn't happen, got pushed to the next season.
Speaker 1: And that was an HBO call. That was a budget call.
Speaker 1: That wasn't the showrunner call or anything like that. That
Speaker 1: was HBO saying, we're spending a lot of fucking money here,
Speaker 1: can we do this next season? And that was the
Speaker 1: thing that the show got killed for. So, you know,
Speaker 1: these are complicated, but it's not on the fans not
Speaker 1: to understand the ins and outs of TV production like
Speaker 1: all the time, and it's you know, kind of our
Speaker 1: job to try and communicate that stuff. But that part
Speaker 1: I found I found interesting because that was something the
Speaker 1: show really got killed for. Was like, I thought, where's
Speaker 1: the battle? I thought we were gonna lead up to
Speaker 1: the whole and I get it. That said, I'm sure
Speaker 1: the next season will be wall to wall. Let's take
Speaker 1: a quick break and let's talk about the themes of
Speaker 1: the first episode of The Night of the Seventh Kick. Yeah, Iraq,
Speaker 1: we are that watching this episode. The theme that rose
Speaker 1: to my mind most kind of obviously was that this
Speaker 1: is an episode about an outsider, about a person who
Speaker 1: is experiencing for the first time, his hand around the
Speaker 1: grip of power. He's experienced it from you know, next
Speaker 1: to the person with his hand on the sword for
Speaker 1: many years now, but he's not actually had his hand
Speaker 1: around the sword and he's not used to it. And
Speaker 1: we see that in a bunch of different scenes told
Speaker 1: through a bunch of different characters. But let's talk about
Speaker 1: that because we open with Dunk talking about out how
Speaker 1: he his mentor, Sir Arland, has rudely died on him,
Speaker 1: leaving him now as the sole inheritor of his very
Speaker 1: meager legacy and also of his title of Night. And
Speaker 1: it's clear that he doesn't, you know, whatever Sir Arln
Speaker 1: gave him, he did not give him what to do next,
Speaker 1: because he has no idea. Do I sell the horses,
Speaker 1: Do I go to a big town, do I you know,
Speaker 1: do I do I become a self sword? What do
Speaker 1: I do? I don't know what to do? And it
Speaker 1: makes him so nervous that he takes a very juicy shit.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about that. You're how does the theme of
Speaker 1: the Outsider strike you? And how do we think Dunk
Speaker 1: is doing as a as a as a Knight in
Speaker 1: the opening episode of this show, Rosie, he's doing amazing.
Speaker 2: Let's let's support the boy, the big boy. He just
Speaker 2: wants to eat a pastry. No j I love that
Speaker 2: this was your big take because you know what really
Speaker 2: this it's so different tonally, but I feel like, just emotionally,
Speaker 2: this episode really hit me in the same way as
Speaker 2: you know the first Like I know, twenty minutes of
Speaker 2: the story of the monster in Frankenstein almost where Dunk
Speaker 2: is just yeah, he doesn't know what to do.
Speaker 3: He can do, that's how much he loves him, and
Speaker 3: he loves him so much.
Speaker 2: But I love this notion of like we see Dunk
Speaker 2: in all these spaces where he has no idea how
Speaker 2: to act, and they do a great job of not
Speaker 2: making it the obvious kind of thaw like fish out
Speaker 2: of water comedy, but like Dunk eating that pastry in
Speaker 2: the tent and not knowing that he had to essentially
Speaker 2: make up like a lie or a reason to be there.
Speaker 2: His honesty, his rawness is just dunkness, his.
Speaker 3: Kind of unwashed, un brainwashed by society.
Speaker 2: He's just like I just wanted some food.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: There's like an honesty to him that I think is
Speaker 2: very appealing in the machinations of Game of Thrones, so
Speaker 2: to me that his outside of nature also gives him
Speaker 2: like a moral quality that I enjoy rooting for.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love his first interactions with other people, namely
Speaker 1: this stable boy young stable boy Egg and just like
Speaker 1: you could see him even experimenting with his posture like okay,
Speaker 1: how does a stand how does a powerful guy address
Speaker 1: a less powerful person, and he's and here we see
Speaker 1: him calling on basically his experiences with Sir Arlen, which
Speaker 1: were constant threats of physical violence in the form of
Speaker 1: clouds are of the head. But I also found it
Speaker 1: very winning, and I think the one to speak more
Speaker 1: about this proximity to power. I was very struck by
Speaker 1: the moment where he sees this drunk in the inn say,
Speaker 1: you know, don't stay away from me, don't look at me,
Speaker 1: and throw down a gold dragon and walk away. The
Speaker 1: innkeeper's not around. He stares at the coin. He could
Speaker 1: take it, he doesn't, and then and we know he's
Speaker 1: got zero money, none, because the true night wouldn't steal.
Speaker 1: A true knight wouldn't steal, right, that's his right. His
Speaker 1: perception of this is, I never saw Sir Arland steel.
Speaker 1: I'm not stealing. That's not what it's right. But he
Speaker 1: has to tip the stable boy when he leaves, and
Speaker 1: he has on it. Does he have three coins? Does
Speaker 1: he have three coppers? Maybe? Does he have two? He
Speaker 1: might only have the one, and he gives this boy
Speaker 1: his only copper, throws it on the ground, because that
Speaker 1: again proximity to power is like, that's probably the best
Speaker 1: that the lords that he has come into contact with
Speaker 1: would do. They wouldn't put in your hand, They'd throw
Speaker 1: it on the fucking ground. So he does that and
Speaker 1: seeing the kids like really a copper responder, or at
Speaker 1: least what he perceives to be that he says, listen,
Speaker 1: I know you're going to pick it up later, and
Speaker 1: you know, don't don't give me that look, but also
Speaker 1: is trying to hide himself, like how hard it was
Speaker 1: to part with that only coin.
Speaker 2: I thought that was.
Speaker 1: An incredible and very subtle scene. Any thoughts on that.
Speaker 2: I love the fact that at every point we are
Speaker 2: learning about what it is to be a person who
Speaker 2: lives in like flea Bottom, but not from the perspective
Speaker 2: of them being told what to do or being a
Speaker 2: tool in someone else's game as we have seen before,
Speaker 2: or some part of someone else's agenda. I think what's
Speaker 2: really interesting here is getting to see Dunk make those
Speaker 2: choices on his own. And what is appealing and you know,
Speaker 2: endearing to us is he is making choices that seem
Speaker 2: to be for the great good. And I think something
Speaker 2: that I really am excited to talk about a little
Speaker 2: bit with this, and it touches back on what a
Speaker 2: Boo was talking about and Jason talking about the clouting
Speaker 2: of the ear and everything. I actually think that that
Speaker 2: is going to be leading us into something a little
Speaker 2: bit deeper, because if what really spoke to me and
Speaker 2: that I found was very powerful is like Egg is
Speaker 2: hella rude because he's not like actually a stable boy,
Speaker 2: you know, he's like fucking Egg, So like he's just
Speaker 2: like a kid doing what he wants. He plays on
Speaker 2: the truck and you know what he gets on that
Speaker 2: night he gets on this night's horse. He does not know, Dunk.
Speaker 2: He knows he's probably not like proper night he can tell,
Speaker 2: but he gets on that night's horse. He puts on
Speaker 2: all of his armor.
Speaker 3: There is another world where he's dead, Like the wrong
Speaker 3: night comes in there, you got on his shit.
Speaker 1: He's like not necessarily a night night.
Speaker 3: He's more of like a king's god kind of vibe,
Speaker 3: you know, the egg the aggie night.
Speaker 2: But instead Dunk never even clouts him. Dunk remembers how
Speaker 2: bad it is to be hit, and he never hits it.
Speaker 2: He always just kind of threatens him lightly and then
Speaker 2: changes his ways. That to me is also very powerful
Speaker 2: and tells me a lot about how he experienced that,
Speaker 2: and while it meant a lot to him that, you know,
Speaker 2: the guy who raised himself out and told him, hey,
Speaker 2: I'll never hit you unless you need it, he really
Speaker 2: recalls that betrayal of that not being the case. And
Speaker 2: I think that now that has shaped too hears and
Speaker 2: I just love this kind of different version of masculinity
Speaker 2: than what we have seen before in a Game of
Speaker 2: Thrones show, which is Dunk figuring out his own masculinity
Speaker 2: by creating a friendship with a younger man who is
Speaker 2: he thinks is less, has less status than him, and
Speaker 2: he's also having to learn how to then treat someone
Speaker 2: well who has less status than him while learning how
Speaker 2: to be a knight. I just think there's so much juicy,
Speaker 2: emotional shit there. If that is the kind of storytelling
Speaker 2: that you like, so for me, hit hit yeah, And.
Speaker 4: For me, it's absolutely the kind of storytelling that I like,
Speaker 4: so certainly Dunk is a highlight for me. I think
Speaker 4: Peter Claffey was just the perfect casting for this role.
Speaker 4: Throughout this whole episode, there were many moments where I
Speaker 4: wanted to just hug Dunk and just tell him that
Speaker 4: it was gonna be okay, and that he's going to
Speaker 4: figure it out and it's all right. And I think
Speaker 4: a particular moment that really stood out to me as
Speaker 4: Dunk being the outsider and trying to come into an
Speaker 4: insider's game and cosplay as a night is when he's
Speaker 4: talking to the steward and he's like, put me in
Speaker 4: the games. I can do it, and I'm not gonna lose.
Speaker 4: Don't don't worry about I'm not fine.
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna lose.
Speaker 4: I don't worry about the fine. I'm not gonna lose. Look,
Speaker 4: I have the sword. I was knighted, trust me. And
Speaker 4: when he's rejected, I found it really sweet that even
Speaker 4: the steward was like, I know, this guy's like probably
Speaker 4: lying to me, but if you can just like have
Speaker 4: someone else prove it, then I'll let him play. And
Speaker 4: like the steward didn't have to go out of his
Speaker 4: way to do that for Dunk. But I think Dunk's
Speaker 4: honesty and naivety honestly open open doors for him in
Speaker 4: ways that it doesn't for other nights.
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 1: I think that there's also you know, thinking about the
Speaker 1: power play here and everybody in this story and in
Speaker 1: this world thinking about themselves in a very set power hierarchy.
Speaker 1: I also think there's a world in which the steward
Speaker 1: is thinking, ooh, it's not often I get some leverage
Speaker 1: on a night. If this guy is more often than
Speaker 1: a knight owes me a favorite. I love that. It
Speaker 1: could be nice, right, it could be nice if this guy,
Speaker 1: maybe I'll do this guy is solid, because maybe then
Speaker 1: he'll owe me one. He'll be in that, he'll be
Speaker 1: in the tournament, he'll be topnobbing with knights and lords
Speaker 1: and et cetera. This guy doesn't look like much, but
Speaker 1: maybe having him in my debt.
Speaker 2: Could be good, yea, Jason, because also aboos. Something else
Speaker 2: you'd pointed out that I love about the show is
Speaker 2: kind of understanding how the small folk actually interact with
Speaker 2: each other. We get to see him with the courtsans,
Speaker 2: and they kind of talk to him in a totally
Speaker 2: different way than we've ever seen before because they are
Speaker 2: usually interacting.
Speaker 1: Like a collide. Almost yeah, almost like he's like an annoy.
Speaker 2: It's like when you work at a restaurant and you
Speaker 2: are a waiter and they're like the waitresses, right, and
Speaker 2: he's like the bus boy. That's basically how they talk. Damn,
Speaker 2: it's like he's like your annoying little brother and maybe
Speaker 2: he's cool, but and I think that kind of conversation
Speaker 2: and interaction, And like you said, Jason, what are the
Speaker 2: deals that are made between the small folk to get
Speaker 2: a favor or a tiny step up that don't mean
Speaker 2: a dragon ending war? Like what is it like to
Speaker 2: make those deals and play within that political playground but
Speaker 2: on this tiny scale of just how it affects your
Speaker 2: day to day life rather than the entirety of the
Speaker 2: seven kingdoms? That's so interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk more about those quarter Sans because I
Speaker 1: love them. I really enjoyed that scene. And you want
Speaker 1: to talk about proximity to power, there's an intimate proximity
Speaker 1: right with their line of work, and they make at
Speaker 1: one point, one of them makes the you know, makes
Speaker 1: this through line to Dunk and basically saying, don't we
Speaker 1: knights the competitors in this tournament and us the courtisions,
Speaker 1: don't we both entertain with our bodies essentially on paraphrasing,
Speaker 1: but basically says that. And I think it's a Dunk
Speaker 1: takes it in stride, and I think their read of
Speaker 1: him is really good off the bat. You know, you
Speaker 1: talk about a world in which you read of a
Speaker 1: man is going to be of paramount importance. They read
Speaker 1: him really well because he takes this really well. But
Speaker 1: it's also a comparison that I think would fall flat,
Speaker 1: perhaps dangerously flat, if you said that to like surf
Speaker 1: foss Away the right, you know, not the cousin the
Speaker 1: you know, or if you said it even to Sir Lionel.
Speaker 1: He might find it entertaining, but I think he might
Speaker 1: be insulted by it. What did you think of this week?
Speaker 1: Because I thought it was I thought it's a line
Speaker 1: that I it's a kind of comparison that I actually
Speaker 1: think about a lot as a sports fan.
Speaker 3: Hmm.
Speaker 1: But it's one that I think is uncomfortable for a
Speaker 1: lot of people.
Speaker 2: I agree, And I think it's actually another great part
Speaker 2: of the show, which is showing how you can translate
Speaker 2: modern conversations into the period of the space, because they
Speaker 2: make a great point and it is true, especially in
Speaker 2: the fact that you know in Game of Thrones Land,
Speaker 2: we know that in wester Ros, if you're a sex worker,
Speaker 2: you are very likely to get beaten to death with
Speaker 2: like a fucking you know, table leg So it's very
Speaker 2: similar to being a knight who is out there breaking
Speaker 2: his body every day. And I love that this is
Speaker 2: a conversation because in real life, you know, pro sex
Speaker 2: work circles, there are a lot of conversations about whether
Speaker 2: or not, you know, destroying your body working in an
Speaker 2: Amazon factory is any more or less dangerous or worthwhile
Speaker 2: than you know, using your body to have, you know,
Speaker 2: do sex work. So I think there is just so
Speaker 2: much interesting smart writing in this show show, and I
Speaker 2: think we're going to see Dunk collect these little things
Speaker 2: in the back of his mind in a way he
Speaker 2: doesn't even realize, because obviously he's very embarrassed and impressed
Speaker 2: and blushing when he meets these women. They're very funny,
Speaker 2: they're very forthright, so he doesn't take it in stride
Speaker 2: as a lesson. But I think we're going to get
Speaker 2: to see Dunk maybe take on those lessons and become
Speaker 2: a bit more of a voice for these people who
Speaker 2: haven't necessarily had it before, even if his voice is
Speaker 2: being a big tour guy who knocks rich knights off there,
Speaker 2: you know, posts at the Tawny, which is kind of
Speaker 2: what I'm hoping for a boo.
Speaker 1: Any thoughts on our courtisans.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you read on it. Jason. Your interpretation
Speaker 4: of what the Cortison said is spot on, because I
Speaker 4: would imagine any other night would, first of all, before
Speaker 4: even thinking about it deeply, would simply be offended that
Speaker 4: Cortizon would compare Why how dare you compare me to
Speaker 4: what you do? You know you are beneath me talking
Speaker 4: about social stratification, right like cortisons and.
Speaker 1: Nights for reet a day.
Speaker 2: You know you can't.
Speaker 4: Compare my job to your job. That's insulting. But I think,
Speaker 4: even thinking about it more deeply, I think a traditional
Speaker 4: night in this system, someone who is a lord, who's landed,
Speaker 4: who has wealth and a castle, would imagine that their
Speaker 4: job is about them. I am bringing honor to my name,
Speaker 4: to my family. I'm out here on the court. This
Speaker 4: is about me. You are all cheering for me, and
Speaker 4: the cortis on here is saying, well, the reality is
Speaker 4: that the opposite is happening. You are putting your body
Speaker 4: on the line for my entertainment. I'm watching you get
Speaker 4: knocked off your horse and your helmet get beat in,
Speaker 4: and that's fun for me. So all you're really doing
Speaker 4: is putting your body on display, and so I find
Speaker 4: that really interesting. I'm glad you brought her up, Jason.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that, Jason. I have to ask you
Speaker 2: if there is a canonical reason that every time we
Speaker 2: have seen a sex wy chern Game of Throne she
Speaker 2: has red hair?
Speaker 1: Is this like aa? Is this like a face? Are
Speaker 1: they just like a wig? Like?
Speaker 2: I think that just like Hey, saucy redheaded, I.
Speaker 1: Think it's just become a thing over time. Like I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, much like much like Marvel Comics love for
Speaker 1: the red haired main partner, you know, main love interest.
Speaker 1: I think it's just become a thing over time. Okay,
Speaker 1: speaking of proximity to power, we get an incredible, probably
Speaker 1: the most lofty view of this proximity, when Sir Duncan
Speaker 1: meets Lord Lionel Barrathian in his tent, taken there by
Speaker 1: a young fossil way to go get some grub they
Speaker 1: walk in. Their immediate introduction to Lionel is he steals
Speaker 1: the entire tent because he's had quote a profound thought,
Speaker 1: And this is you want to talk about power. Power
Speaker 1: is any time in this world. Power is anytime the
Speaker 1: most simple thought comes into your mind that you feel
Speaker 1: like maybe that's worth sharing. You stop everybody in their
Speaker 1: tracks and make them fucking listen to you. And then
Speaker 1: he tells this his profound thought is, jousting was invented
Speaker 1: four thousand years ago. How do we know that it
Speaker 1: was actually men that invented it and not the gods?
Speaker 1: Because could men have come up with this? He really
Speaker 1: struggles to put that idea. He's like gets lost in
Speaker 1: the forest of his own mind. There he's very drunk,
Speaker 1: and then he's just like, fuck it, one hundred gold dragons,
Speaker 1: whoever can you know? Knock me off my horse? And
Speaker 1: then seeing Dunk is like, you know again, here's this
Speaker 1: power of just like I'm in my tent, I'm a
Speaker 1: great lord. This guy interests me. Call him over and
Speaker 1: I'm now gonna just ask him like, okay, what's your
Speaker 1: Do you have a gift for me? Like what is
Speaker 1: your deal? Like why are you here? Man? And this
Speaker 1: is it's it's a The whole thing is wonderful because
Speaker 1: first we see essentially Lionel get the measure of Dunk
Speaker 1: just trying to figure out who you know, what is
Speaker 1: your tall? Do you get punched a lot? Why are
Speaker 1: you here. You're not here wanting anything from me other
Speaker 1: than the free food of the tent. That's very interesting,
Speaker 1: Like I'm so bored all the time these people wanting stuff.
Speaker 1: I want to kind of know more about you. And
Speaker 1: then eventually it turns to Dunk being able to ask
Speaker 1: Lionel about night stuff. What's it like to fight? Like
Speaker 1: is it you? Were you ever scared? Like how did
Speaker 1: you manage to go out there and and compete your
Speaker 1: first time or fight in that battle? And am I
Speaker 1: do you think I can do it? And I just
Speaker 1: loved the entire sequence and I have to call out
Speaker 1: the Stanis Barathi and easter egg in which which in
Speaker 1: which Lionel is like, you know, just talking about heretics.
Speaker 1: It is like, you know, saying it's like what did
Speaker 1: he asks? Is his like right hand manly? What do
Speaker 1: they do to heretics? And guys like burn them? That's right,
Speaker 1: burn them? And it's like such a lighthearted callback that
Speaker 1: you didn't like, you a boo. I didn't register until
Speaker 1: my second or third Yeah, you wash, that's blake. But Leah,
Speaker 1: let's talk about this proximity to power. Lionel Brathy in
Speaker 1: a true wielder of power and dunk a novice wielded
Speaker 1: wielder of power trying to figure out how to act
Speaker 1: in a place such as this.
Speaker 2: Boo, Have you ever really seen in general fantasy before? Like,
Speaker 2: I found this moment to just be very unusual because
Speaker 2: there is a deep connection here that is absolutely erased
Speaker 2: of any of those social stratifications, just simply through like
Speaker 2: curiosity and in its own way, that is Lord Brathian's power, right,
Speaker 2: because he's so powerful that if he says this person
Speaker 2: is worthy of talking to, then you have to respect him.
Speaker 2: But I just found the whole connection between them, the
Speaker 2: friendship element, the flirtatious dancing, it felt very different to
Speaker 2: any ways we've ever seen, like a small person and
Speaker 2: you know, a royal interact and fantasy the same with
Speaker 2: the class structure in general. Is this Does that feel
Speaker 2: a little bit more unique to you because you definitely
Speaker 2: read a lot more fantasy than I do. But I
Speaker 2: found that to be quite different. It does.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Honestly, I was waiting the first time I watched
Speaker 4: this episode throughout this whole scene, I was waiting for
Speaker 4: the shoot to drop. I was like, right, okay, so
Speaker 4: Lionel's going to do something crazy, right, Dunk's going to
Speaker 4: get in trouble. That's what is expected to happen here.
Speaker 4: That is what lords in the Game of Throne universe
Speaker 4: do to, you know, nobody's like Duncan. And then it
Speaker 4: doesn't happen, and in fact, it becomes a really sweet
Speaker 4: scene of connection between these two guys, which I found
Speaker 4: really really fascinating, And I think this whole Lionel sequence
Speaker 4: kind of encapsulates both of the big idea as we've
Speaker 4: been talking about, the insider outsider and also the idea
Speaker 4: of the perspective of the small folk, because Duncan gets
Speaker 4: insider information right from a real deal night, a real
Speaker 4: deal lord. Lionel imparts some really sweet wisdom. He's like, hey,
Speaker 4: the God's made you tall. Stand up man, stand straight up, Like,
Speaker 4: don't slout, You're Dunk in the tall. You're Dunk in
Speaker 4: the tall, take up space. You're a Knight, aren't you.
Speaker 4: I really liked that part, and that's sort of the
Speaker 4: insider Night's perspective versus the outsider, fake knight, Sir Duncan
Speaker 4: trying to find his way. And then the other moment
Speaker 4: that really stood out to me was at one point
Speaker 4: they're talking about nightly warfare, and Lionel tells Dunk that
Speaker 4: it's a great honor to test yourself against a worthy foe,
Speaker 4: even if you fail. And Dunk has the opportunity here
Speaker 4: to really comment on that social stratification and the idea
Speaker 4: that like, your world is not my world, and he says,
Speaker 4: that's easy for you to say. You have an and
Speaker 4: inheritance one loss, and I won't be able to ransom
Speaker 4: my own horseback. And what is a nice without what
Speaker 4: is a knight without his horse? And this bout is
Speaker 4: fun and games for many of the wealthier knights here,
Speaker 4: but it is life and death for someone like Duncan.
Speaker 4: And that's sort of the reality of you know, social
Speaker 4: class in the real world.
Speaker 1: That's a great I love that exchange as well, and
Speaker 1: I on rewatch, I was I really noticed what comes
Speaker 1: before that because it opens that exchange opens with Barathian
Speaker 1: telling Dunk this story about some battle that he had
Speaker 1: taken part with on like that was at sea and
Speaker 1: this you know, the waves were rollicking and the salt
Speaker 1: spray and his face and Dunk asks him, weren't you afraid?
Speaker 1: And you know, fight on water like that, and you
Speaker 1: know you knew. It's clear from the implication is that
Speaker 1: this was and much earlier in Lionel's career as a leader.
Speaker 1: And Lionel basically says, you know, within a man, there
Speaker 1: are many men. And the Stormlanders, now I'm paraphrasing, have
Speaker 1: a legacy, you know, the Brathians have a specific legacy
Speaker 1: of warfare and achievement. They had done it. Therefore I
Speaker 1: could do it because I looked at all these people
Speaker 1: who had come before me, who bore the name, who
Speaker 1: live in this region, the kind of culture we have,
Speaker 1: and I understood that they could do it. I could
Speaker 1: do it because they did it. And what Dunk is
Speaker 1: essentially saying, beyond his response of like you have it,
Speaker 1: I'm broken, Like if I lose this horse, is all
Speaker 1: I have is there's a deeper like there's a deeper
Speaker 1: friction there that Dunk can't quite put his finger on
Speaker 1: in the moment, but you can feel him grappling with
Speaker 1: which is I don't have that. I don't I only
Speaker 1: have Sir Arlnd to show me that such things are possible.
Speaker 1: And I never saw him compete. He told me the stories,
Speaker 1: but I don't actually know what it's like. I can't
Speaker 1: call on this generations and centuries of example to strengthen
Speaker 1: my hand, Like I have to just basically be the
Speaker 1: first person that ever did it. I can't say, oh, well,
Speaker 1: my father did it, his great grandfather did it, and
Speaker 1: you know, the first Barathian did it. I don't have
Speaker 1: that beyond that, like I don't have the I don't
Speaker 1: forget the money, forget the resources. I have the title,
Speaker 1: But the person that I'm basing this entire thing on,
Speaker 1: I'm not even sure if what he's given me is right.
Speaker 1: And you can feel him struggling with that, and in fact,
Speaker 1: I would say, not a spoiler, but that's his struggle.
Speaker 1: The entire series too, is like, how do I know
Speaker 1: what Arlen told me is is right? And now let's
Speaker 1: go to these cutaways. I find them very interesting for
Speaker 1: a few reasons, Okay, the first being, this is a
Speaker 1: story that is we understand is told from Dunk's perspective,
Speaker 1: and so when we cut away, I'm thinking, for instance,
Speaker 1: when he finally corners Dundarian and is like, h Sarlon,
Speaker 1: he uh, he fought in your he forted your state,
Speaker 1: he took an hour for you. You don't remember him. And
Speaker 1: then we see that moment where like Sir Giera pulled up,
Speaker 1: So is that what happened or is that Dunk's perception
Speaker 1: of what happened based on what Sir Arlend told him.
Speaker 1: I think it must be the second, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Like it's about everything he is experiencing
Speaker 2: is his version of it. So he's like it was
Speaker 2: the most heroic thing and did da da? And then
Speaker 2: obviously Venerian's like, well, people get wounded for me all
Speaker 2: the time, like who fucking cares? But to Dunk, it's
Speaker 2: that he knows the story, the legend, And I think
Speaker 2: as well, there is something very relatable and appealing about
Speaker 2: that because also, like often that's how we feel about
Speaker 2: our parents, is like they just unleash us in the
Speaker 2: world and we're like, well, what do I do now?
Speaker 2: Like now I have to pay rent and like have
Speaker 2: a job and just kind of continue. And I think
Speaker 2: that's another thing I'm loving and I feel like is
Speaker 2: hitting with a lot of people and people outside of
Speaker 2: the Game of Thrones universe, is these conversations and these
Speaker 2: flashbacks and the different ways that they're using emotion and
Speaker 2: storytelling are actually appealing to people outside of the usual
Speaker 2: space I've seen people coming to this as a coming
Speaker 2: of age story rather than a fantasy piece, And I
Speaker 2: think that that all of the things we're talking about,
Speaker 2: but especially these notions of kind of like how we
Speaker 2: make choices and what our legacy is, and whether having
Speaker 2: a family name matters, and whether having a family matters,
Speaker 2: and whether they're following a traditional route that you're expected
Speaker 2: to follow. That is a perennially interesting story and probably
Speaker 2: why you're wrote this book in the first place. You know,
Speaker 2: these are themes that hit and to me, I am
Speaker 2: just loving following that specific part of Dunk's journey, and
Speaker 2: also I want to know what we're going to learn
Speaker 2: more about Sir Alan, Like, was there things he told
Speaker 2: him that were true? Were the things that he told
Speaker 2: him that weren't true? Does it? Matt do? Like is
Speaker 2: the point that Dunk being the night is the point?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: I just think all of that stuff is really interesting.
Speaker 2: A boo, Where do you see that kind of part
Speaker 2: of the conflict setting us up as we head into
Speaker 2: the rest of the season.
Speaker 4: Well, uh, Jason, I want to give you credit. I
Speaker 4: might have to go rewatch the episode again with your
Speaker 4: perspective in mind. Looking at the cutaways as purely Dunk's
Speaker 4: memories of his past with Sir Arlen, and not necessarily
Speaker 4: cutaways that are actual flashbacks to the truth, because that
Speaker 4: version of the cutaways didn't work for me. But I
Speaker 4: really like the idea of them being somewhat falsified mythologized
Speaker 4: to memories of a child growing up with exactly nobody
Speaker 4: knight In, traveling around west Rows uh and learning what
Speaker 4: he can from somebody who, ultimately, in the grander history
Speaker 4: of west Rows will not be remembered by anything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that. I think that there is a
Speaker 1: very subtle, unreliable narrator y thing going on here, and
Speaker 1: it's and it's subtly layered because Dunk is his own
Speaker 1: I think unreliable narrator in a certain respect. It's again,
Speaker 1: it's her perspective, it's his memories, he remembering everything correctly.
Speaker 1: And secondarily, well, let's we'll save our judgment for when
Speaker 1: we see more. But I think it's quite reasonable to
Speaker 1: assume that Sir Arlen was not a reliable narrator life.
Speaker 3: I feel like Dunk, he just told him all these
Speaker 3: stories and we're not gonna know.
Speaker 1: I'm nuts, it's gonna be a night, but it's gonna
Speaker 1: be a big friction, right like did he yeah? Did
Speaker 1: he was he a knight? Did he claim he wasn't?
Speaker 1: Did he knight? Sir Duncan? Did he deal all these
Speaker 1: things he said he did? It's unclear, and certainly it's
Speaker 1: unclear right now. And I think that I think in
Speaker 1: that that conversation with Lionel, what Dunk is too afraid
Speaker 1: to talk about is when he's saying, like, can I
Speaker 1: do it? Do you think I could do it? Like, no, no,
Speaker 1: you can't, absolutely not, but that measurement, and and I
Speaker 1: think that I think what he's too afraid to ask
Speaker 1: is like, what if it's all what if it's all Hey,
Speaker 1: what if it's all fake? What if I what if
Speaker 1: I learned the wrong things? What if this guy told
Speaker 1: me the wrong stuff? What if everything he told me
Speaker 1: was is incorrect? Because I can't get a secondary source
Speaker 1: to confirm anything he's ever done to this point, and
Speaker 1: so like, what if it's all what if it's all
Speaker 1: fake and it's just me out there? How you know?
Speaker 1: Can I do it? And I think Lionel's response, I
Speaker 1: think is both brutal and actually like really up to
Speaker 1: like actually really meaningful for Dunk's life, which is, listen,
Speaker 1: you're not despite what you say to the clerk when
Speaker 1: you registered for the games, you're not gonna fucking win
Speaker 1: all the time. Yeah, But figuring out where you stack
Speaker 1: up against true opponents, like, you know, competent, powerful opponents.
Speaker 1: That's part of what's great about being a Knight. Now.
Speaker 1: Of course he's coming from the perspective of like endless
Speaker 1: coffers of money and impregnable castle and all that stuff,
Speaker 1: but it's kind of it is true, like if you
Speaker 1: want to be in this world, you're gonna have to
Speaker 1: measure yourself and that means getting used to losing at times. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I just love this exchange. The Lionel stuff is like,
Speaker 1: I think it's so it's the best stuff in the
Speaker 1: episode by far. It's so good.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 1: Finally, let's talk about the final moment of proximity to power,
Speaker 1: a true double outsider moment question, and it's when Dunk
Speaker 1: returns back to his campsite and finds that the egg
Speaker 1: is there, an eggs cooking a fish and eggs kept
Speaker 1: things up. Well, he isn't stolen from everything. Looks great,
Speaker 1: Canary in his like I'm a knight teapot double teapot stance,
Speaker 1: like with his cake thrown over his shoulder. Yeah, sir
Speaker 1: Duncan Dunk at the top, Yeah yeah yeah. And they
Speaker 1: sit down together and share this moment and it's hard
Speaker 1: to it's quite obvious. I don't know, and rewatch that,
Speaker 1: like the person who should be the most nervous Egg
Speaker 1: is not, and the person who should be the most
Speaker 1: confident with his status and power and privileged is not.
Speaker 1: Talk about this scene because it's clearly going to be
Speaker 1: the thing that launches us since the rest of the series.
Speaker 2: I think this chemistry casting is amazing. I think if
Speaker 2: you don't get Egg right, that's a really hard character
Speaker 2: to get right. And Jason, I think that we are
Speaker 2: so past even how good this casting is. And that
Speaker 2: is why Killed This scene works so well because you
Speaker 2: never question it, like it shouldn't be that way. Dunk is,
Speaker 2: you know whatever, six seven, Like for the kids, he's
Speaker 2: very tall, you.
Speaker 3: Know, like that's I guess I actually can't even take
Speaker 3: credit for that because I was talking recently about how
Speaker 3: I dated a guy who was six seven and then
Speaker 3: I got six seven. So now whenever I bring up
Speaker 3: a height, I'm like Okay, there's a chance.
Speaker 1: So yeah, but but but.
Speaker 2: He's very tall, he's very big. He should be imposing.
Speaker 2: We know he's a nice guy who loves eating pastries.
Speaker 2: Egg does not technically know that if he's just a
Speaker 2: stable boy. We see here the Egg also has skills
Speaker 2: that Dunk does not have. Egg is able to do washing,
Speaker 2: Egg is able to make food. Egg is able to
Speaker 2: make a fire. There is a power dynamic here that
Speaker 2: clearly shifts. And what I love about it is that,
Speaker 2: for once, it doesn't feel like a malicious or dangerous agenda.
Speaker 2: It feels like two outsiders trying to kind of navigate like, Okay, well,
Speaker 2: what do you know and what do you not know?
Speaker 2: And how can we maybe work alongside this? It also
Speaker 2: obviously sets up a Ducks Dexter Sault and Cell who's
Speaker 2: so good as Egg? As kind of are you know
Speaker 2: the brains in the brains and brawn double bill kind
Speaker 2: of twenty journey we're gonna be getting. I just I
Speaker 2: love this scene. Like I said, the so the luckies
Speaker 2: ours are alone, you know, has really inspired something in people.
Speaker 2: I just I thought it was magic and Jason, I
Speaker 2: think you're right. It again might not seem like a
Speaker 2: big scene, might seem like a cozy sequence by the fire,
Speaker 2: but if you dig in a little bit more, I
Speaker 2: think it really is going to establish a lot of
Speaker 2: where those two characters are going.
Speaker 1: Aboo.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Rosie, I agree with you completely. I think you
Speaker 4: said it beautifully. This was the perfect scene to end
Speaker 4: this first episode on. And I haven't watched ahead. I've
Speaker 4: read the book, so I generally know where things are
Speaker 4: going to go, but I haven't watched the show yet.
Speaker 4: But I think the casting is perfect, the chemistry is perfect. Egg.
Speaker 4: I do think is an extremely challenging character cast and
Speaker 4: they've absolutely nailed it. I think Jason on the official
Speaker 4: pod I was listening earlier and Iris said that Egg
Speaker 4: was maybe the first audition tape that they watched, and
Speaker 4: they went through so many other people and eventually just
Speaker 4: circled back to Eventually they just circled circled back to Dexter.
Speaker 4: So I think they absolutely crushed it, and just a sweet,
Speaker 4: sweet scene to end on. I really really loved that
Speaker 4: the final moments of this episode were about the shooting star.
Speaker 4: It just establishes their Relationshi Chip and the tone of
Speaker 4: the show beautifully.
Speaker 1: It's also like, you know you speaking of being an
Speaker 1: outsider and not knowing how to act in a position
Speaker 1: of power. I just love that He's another night would
Speaker 1: be like, would not ask for the explanation. So how
Speaker 1: is it? How does it work? If we saw it?
Speaker 1: Do we get it? That's ours or what? Yeah? We
Speaker 1: share it with her?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I loved it too. Uh. Let's leave with our favorite
Speaker 1: moments from the episode A boot for.
Speaker 4: Me, I think it was the moment where Dunk is
Speaker 4: talking to the courtisans and he just says, do you
Speaker 4: have to make fun of me? And my heart just
Speaker 4: ached so much for Duncan in that moment and seeing
Speaker 4: the courtisans immediately shift right. They're going from like, yes,
Speaker 4: we're teasing our younger brother and like annoying the shit
Speaker 4: out of him to suddenly like, wait, you are our
Speaker 4: younger brother though, and we're all on the same team.
Speaker 4: Let's let us actually talk to you. I find I
Speaker 4: found that shift really impactful, and I love that moment.
Speaker 2: Rosie, Yeah, to talk about when we haven't talked about
Speaker 2: yet A boo fantastic pick, by the way. I just
Speaker 2: loved the first interaction when Dunk is in talking to
Speaker 2: the innkeeper and we get that it's very on the nose,
Speaker 2: but that kind of like, well, guess what, the tawny
Speaker 2: has never made eggs cheaper. I think that is a
Speaker 2: good line in the sand of Hey, even if you're
Speaker 2: here for the fantasy, for the cozy lord of the
Speaker 2: Rings adventure aspect, we are also talking about a world
Speaker 2: where the wealth divide is unbelievable, and there are people
Speaker 2: here who enable all of the beautiful costumes an incredible mummery,
Speaker 2: and the people who build the fucking places where people
Speaker 2: are doing jousting like we're gonna get to hear from them,
Speaker 2: and that to me is so exciting, and so I
Speaker 2: just want to I think they did a good job
Speaker 2: there of saying, hey, here's our little steak in the ground,
Speaker 2: and if you keep watching, you're gonna get more of that. Jason,
Speaker 2: what about you?
Speaker 1: For me, it's it's the kind of back to back
Speaker 1: moments where he looks at the golden dragon on the
Speaker 1: table with like awe and not greed, but but kind
Speaker 1: of a longing of I will never have I will
Speaker 1: never hold anywhere close to that much money in my hand,
Speaker 1: that kind of look, and then that contrasted with a
Speaker 1: few moments later when he's you know, leaving the stable
Speaker 1: and he's on his horse and he and he's like,
Speaker 1: fuck a night. A night would a true knight, an
Speaker 1: honorable night, would would give this stable boy a little
Speaker 1: something for his trouble. Like he did everything that I
Speaker 1: asked him to do for the most part, and like,
Speaker 1: my shit, and that's what a true knight would do.
Speaker 1: And and you could see how hard it is to
Speaker 1: part with the meager copper that he has, like basically
Speaker 1: any but it's all he has. And that moment, I
Speaker 1: think really carried a lot about what Dunk is, dunk struggle,
Speaker 1: what he's trying to do. And I thought it was
Speaker 1: really well done. And even even the part of him
Speaker 1: which feels, you know, of him just like pitching it
Speaker 1: into the ground and be like, yeah, I know you're
Speaker 1: gonna pick it up. I know you're gonna pick it
Speaker 1: up later. You're gonna pick it up. Like it seems
Speaker 1: he does it so halfheartedly mm hmm. You know, but again,
Speaker 1: this is Dunk carrying out what he thinks is a
Speaker 1: knight's duty, what a knight does, and it's it's.
Speaker 2: One of love that he says, you know, he says
Speaker 2: it because I also think he knows that if it
Speaker 2: was him and when he was a kid, and even now,
Speaker 2: he'd probably still scrabble up and get it. So he's
Speaker 2: also like he's saying it in a in a sassy,
Speaker 2: like I'm a cuing way, but he's also saying like, hey,
Speaker 2: do't fucking act proud like I gave you the money.
Speaker 2: Just pick it up like it doesn't matter, like I
Speaker 2: get it. And I think that duality between yeah, Dunk's
Speaker 2: own personal experiences and then him trying to pretend that
Speaker 2: he is kind of more noble, more high born, that's
Speaker 2: a really interesting duality. So great page.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then and so to your point, like trying
Speaker 1: to connect with egg about like, hey, I get it,
Speaker 1: you know, I know. It's like I get what it's
Speaker 1: like to have no money. Believe me, because now I
Speaker 1: have no money. And guess what, I don't have any
Speaker 1: money now either. And if you walked away, I would
Speaker 1: get down on my heads. And he's and picked the
Speaker 1: thing up, get it. Well, this was a wonderful conversation.
Speaker 1: We're gonna We're gonna be covering a nine of the
Speaker 1: Seven Kingdoms all season, with two episodes a week. On
Speaker 1: the next episode of Extra Vision. We're breaking down the
Speaker 1: biggest news of the week. That's it for this episode,
Speaker 1: Extra Listening by x ray Vision is hosted by Jason
Speaker 1: steps Young and Rosie Night and is a production of
Speaker 1: iHeart Podcast.
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Abusafar.
Speaker 2: Our producers are Common laurent Ian Jonathan.
Speaker 1: And Fay Wack. A theme song is by Brian Vasquez,
Speaker 1: with alternate theme songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Speaker 2: Special thanks to Soul Rubin.
Speaker 3: Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and Heidi are discord moderator.