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Speaker 1: The craziest thing that has been happening to me this

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Speaker 1: week that is really making me feel like Demi Moore

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Speaker 1: and Ghosts is that my phone keeps ringing, but the

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Speaker 1: calls are coming from me. I get calls like that

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Speaker 1: at least three times a day. Listen. I was waiting

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Speaker 1: to get something delivered at my house and I missed

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Speaker 1: my delivery when I missed everything because I'm always getting

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Speaker 1: spam fixed, you know, And so I said, Okay, we'll

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Speaker 1: try to be better. I'll answer and see who it is.

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Speaker 1: And I can because people would say, oh, I tried

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Speaker 1: calling you, but I didn't get an answer. If I

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Speaker 1: don't have your number, say, I don't know who it is,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not going to answer because last week I

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Speaker 1: answered and I said hello, and the person was like,

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Speaker 1: do you have diabetes? I'm selling something strips or monitors.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what they were saying, but lately it's

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Speaker 1: been me. So it makes my contact pop up and

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Speaker 1: it's like, you have a call from Zakia and I'm like, no, no,

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Speaker 1: So what you're not gonna do is bring this bad

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Speaker 1: juju through my phone. Maybe it's future. It's a kid

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Speaker 1: calling to tell you like don't eat all that kale.

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Speaker 1: No future me would definitely send something that I could

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Speaker 1: verify future me, but not call future in me. Send

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Speaker 1: like a letter or an email, something that I could

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Speaker 1: show like, look it happened, tuchus, A kid I trust

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Speaker 1: would send like some type of code word to let

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Speaker 1: me know it really is Yes. Currents Akida would do

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Speaker 1: that too. Current a Kia does do that. I'm like, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is how you know it's really me and I'm

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Speaker 1: my girl, I know it's you. I'm looking at you.

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Speaker 1: I'm TT and I'm Zakiyah and from Spotify Studios. This

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Speaker 1: is dope laps. So whether it's spam or robo calling

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Speaker 1: or calls from your future self, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: calls you don't want to answer these days. And I

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Speaker 1: think one of the things that I always see on

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Speaker 1: the internet people saying they don't answer calls because of

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Speaker 1: Sally May. Right, Sally may have been knocking on everybody's

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Speaker 1: door since what feels like the beginning of time, and

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Speaker 1: everybody is bobbing and weave in to duck those phone

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Speaker 1: calls because you'll get your money. When you get your money, Sally,

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Speaker 1: you can't even stay in touch with your family. You

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Speaker 1: got long lost relatives trying to reach you. You like,

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Speaker 1: can't risk it. I don't have a minial. This could

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Speaker 1: be Sally. I can't make the payment this month. So

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Speaker 1: today we're talking about debt, specifically college debts. That's right,

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Speaker 1: it's been the elephant in the room and it's time

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Speaker 1: to address it. Let's talk to that elephant. And I

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Speaker 1: know y'all might be saying the hell a TT is

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Speaker 1: the key at talking about this is not science, But

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Speaker 1: let me tell you, yes it is. Yes it is.

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Speaker 1: You thought that you could put dope labs into a box,

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Speaker 1: No you can't. You're not just talking about physics, chemistry, biology,

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Speaker 1: We're talking about everything because all these things are science,

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Speaker 1: and there's a scientific method that can be applied to

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Speaker 1: all these things. Economics is a social science, right, It's

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Speaker 1: the science of money, the flow of money, and it

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Speaker 1: has great effects on society as a whole, on each

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Speaker 1: and every one of us. No one is excluded from

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Speaker 1: the economy. Yep. So this science is actually something that

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Speaker 1: all of you all can benefit from. The fact that

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Speaker 1: so many people are identifying with this and there's memes

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Speaker 1: everywhere I turn about it. It feels like a major problem.

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Speaker 1: I mean, cause it's like, you go to school and

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Speaker 1: you're just trying to make your life better, right, because

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Speaker 1: that's what they tell us is that you got to

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Speaker 1: go to school, you got to get these degrees in

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Speaker 1: order to have a better life. And then as soon

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Speaker 1: as you're done, they're like, Okay, now start paying me back.

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Speaker 1: It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I got to establish myself first.

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Speaker 1: How am I supposed to establish myself if you keep

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Speaker 1: if you taking the money out of my pocket as

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Speaker 1: soon as I put it in there, It's like somebody

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Speaker 1: training you to walk, and then they're like, I'm about

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Speaker 1: to chase you. They don't even give you. They don't

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Speaker 1: even give you a head start, right, at least give

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Speaker 1: me a head start, right. Oh, these entry positions not

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Speaker 1: paying like that for real? It's like, can I get

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Speaker 1: a savings and then we could talk about me paying

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Speaker 1: you back? It's crazy, and I know it's really real

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Speaker 1: because it came up from one of our three two

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Speaker 1: hundred and thirty seven Democratic candidates, from Elizabeth Warren. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she talked about eliminating student loans for people who have

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Speaker 1: what was it fifty thousand? She was saying she would.

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Speaker 1: I think it was eliminate fifty thousand dollars of student

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Speaker 1: loan debt if you make less than one hundred thousand. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I said, I'll see you trying to build up the

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Speaker 1: middle class. As soon as everybody said that, they're like

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warren for president. But everybody's jumping on the bandwagon.

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Speaker 1: But occasionally there was a lot of backlash too. There was,

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Speaker 1: and so then I was like, but wait, that sounds

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Speaker 1: good to me. So now I'm starting to think I

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Speaker 1: don't know enough, and there's so many other things that

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Speaker 1: are going on with the student loan process that I

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Speaker 1: am not privy to that could mean that this whole

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Speaker 1: eliminating student debt is a bad thing. I don't see

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Speaker 1: how it could be a bad thing. I know a

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Speaker 1: lot of people that are crushed by student debt. But

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Speaker 1: I do think there are things I want to know.

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Speaker 1: It's time for the recitation. I think first we want

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Speaker 1: to know do most people have student loans? And like,

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Speaker 1: we know what a student loan is. I guess, yeah,

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Speaker 1: how does it work? And how's it different from other

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Speaker 1: standard loans? Right? What's so different about it that so

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Speaker 1: many people are defaulting on their student loans. Why does

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Speaker 1: it take so long to pay back? The struggle is

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Speaker 1: real with paying them back and then what happens if

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Speaker 1: you can't pay? And is everyone borrowing equally? My other

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Speaker 1: question is what was up with that stuff that Elizabeth

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Speaker 1: Warren was saying, Like she introduced something about in her

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Speaker 1: platform about student loan forgiveness. I want to know more

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Speaker 1: about that. Yeah, student loan forgiveness, is it real? Like

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Speaker 1: is it? This is a trick, isn't it? And what

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Speaker 1: would that look like? So now we want to lay

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Speaker 1: the foundation right, what's the history of student loans? The

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Speaker 1: first student loans were given out to students at Harvard

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Speaker 1: back in like eighteen forty or so. That is a

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Speaker 1: long time ago, Yeah, and only to Harvard's students. But

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Speaker 1: since then we've gone through various iterations of things that

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Speaker 1: are like a student loan or a grant like the

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Speaker 1: GI Bill, the Federal Family Education loans, the Peil grant

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Speaker 1: which you didn't have to pay back. But then we

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Speaker 1: kind of did away with a law of that stuff

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Speaker 1: by twenty ten, and then by twenty twelve, the amount

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Speaker 1: of student loan debt that we have in the United

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Speaker 1: States it got up to one trillion dollars. That's tr

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Speaker 1: tr million illy on. We also know there's another problem,

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Speaker 1: right aside from overwhelming student debt, the cost of education

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Speaker 1: is so drastically different. I'm tired of baby boomer saying

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Speaker 1: I went to college. You paid three thousand dollars for

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Speaker 1: all four years exactly. That's completely different from what we

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Speaker 1: paying these days. Those are the fees for a semester. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm not trying to hear it. Yeah, I feel like

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Speaker 1: baby boomers were going to college for like a nickel

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Speaker 1: and a bag of chips. College is way more expensive now.

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Speaker 1: In twenty seventeen to twenty eighteen, the average cost of

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Speaker 1: attendance was over forty thousand dollars for an out of

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Speaker 1: state public school. But even for in state public education

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Speaker 1: that's twenty five thousand dollars. And private schools they cost

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Speaker 1: over fifty thousand dollars just for one year. So now

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Speaker 1: we're talking about let's say you stick to this grip,

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Speaker 1: you take all those classes, maybe some summer courses too.

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Speaker 1: Four years at a private school two hundred thousand dollars,

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Speaker 1: you bought a house, You get about a lot of things.

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Speaker 1: So I have questions about that. So to find out

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Speaker 1: the answer to some of these questions, we turn to

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Speaker 1: our good friend, Colleen Campbell.

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Speaker 2: My name is Colleen Campbell, and I'm the director for

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Speaker 2: post Secondary Education at the Center for American Progress Action Fund.

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Speaker 2: I do research and advocacy on student debt.

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Speaker 1: And for the purposes of today's lab we're going to

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Speaker 1: focus mainly on federal student loans, which make up the

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Speaker 1: majority of the student loan pie. Some people do choose

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Speaker 1: to take out loans from private institutions, but those are

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Speaker 1: harder to get in a lot less flexible. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: let's just rip off the band aid. I want to

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Speaker 1: know what the current state of the federal student loan

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Speaker 1: debt is today. How bad is it?

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Speaker 2: So there's about one point five trillion dollars outstanding of

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Speaker 2: federal student loan debt. That's about forty three million people

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Speaker 2: who have student loans, so it's about a fifth of adults.

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Speaker 2: For context, it's pretty comparable to auto debt. Actually, so

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Speaker 2: there's about one point one trillion outstanding in auto loans.

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Speaker 1: But the number of adults in the US who have

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Speaker 1: a car loan that's more than double the number of

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Speaker 1: adults who have student loan debt. Yeah, about forty four

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Speaker 1: percent of American adults are paying off car loans compared

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Speaker 1: to twenty percent of adults who are paying off student loans.

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Speaker 1: So that's more debt but fewer people. That's not a

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Speaker 1: good look. So who are these people that are taking

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Speaker 1: on this combined one point five trillion dollars in debt.

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Speaker 1: Before we dive into the policy and economics around student loans,

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Speaker 1: let's kind of survey the landscape of higher ed in

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Speaker 1: the United States. So let's start with who's going to

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Speaker 1: college in the first place.

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Speaker 2: Most college students are adults, they're over twenty four, they're married,

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Speaker 2: they have children. Most people are not enrolling in a

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Speaker 2: public four year college or a private four year college.

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Speaker 2: And you better be damn sure that most people are

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Speaker 2: not getting.

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Speaker 1: A graduate degree. This is so important to hear, right,

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Speaker 1: because the image of a college student in the media

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Speaker 1: is this bright eyed, bushy tail, button up polo shirt,

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Speaker 1: pop collar, boat shoes, lay your pot in the ear, right,

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Speaker 1: But really it is all the cost, no vineyard vines,

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Speaker 1: vineyard vines. But it's really like a mom who's nursing

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Speaker 1: her newborn and reading introduction to sociology and trying to

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Speaker 1: make sure that the spaghetti don't burn.

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Speaker 2: One of the things with student debt that I think,

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Speaker 2: really I like to do this level setting before we

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Speaker 2: dig into these issues, is to frame for people that

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Speaker 2: we are very much biased by the people around us

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Speaker 2: and our own experiences.

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Speaker 1: All Right, so it's time to talk to the woman

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Speaker 1: in the mirror. Our understanding of student loans is probably

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Speaker 1: based on our own experiences and the experiences of our

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Speaker 1: friends and the people that we know. Yeah, people in

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Speaker 1: our bubble. But in order to really understand the whole

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Speaker 1: complicated mess that's associated with student loans, you really have

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Speaker 1: to burst that bubble.

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Speaker 2: If most of the people you know have degrees, you

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Speaker 2: actually are like your bubble is relatively small, especially if

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Speaker 2: you only know people with graduate degrees. Yeah, twelve percent

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Speaker 2: of adults have graduate degrees.

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Speaker 1: And Colleen says that the number of people without a

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Speaker 1: high school diploma is almost equal to the number of

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Speaker 1: people with a graduate degree. That's crazy. This really helps

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Speaker 1: put our bubbles in perspective. Right, how many people do

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Speaker 1: you know without a high school diploma versus people with

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Speaker 1: a graduate degree. The chances are that you know more

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Speaker 1: in one group or the other.

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Speaker 2: So we really have to think through kind of like

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Speaker 2: what the landscape of the American population looks like, particularly

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Speaker 2: when we break these things down by race, so that

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Speaker 2: we can have a better understanding of who we're going

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Speaker 2: to be affecting and like where we might want to

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Speaker 2: be prioritizing those dollars.

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Speaker 1: We'll get to that later in the show, but first

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Speaker 1: let's start off with the basics of student loans. How

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Speaker 1: do they actually work.

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Speaker 2: When people take out a loan, that's what we call

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Speaker 2: their principal balance, and then there's an interest rate attached

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Speaker 2: to that loan. Right now, for undergraduates, interest rates are

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Speaker 2: between usually about three and a half percent, like five

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Speaker 2: or six percent.

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Speaker 1: There are also subsidized and unsubsidized loans. With subsidized loans,

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Speaker 1: while you're in school, your loan won't accrue interests. So

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Speaker 1: if you borrow three thousand dollars in your first year

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Speaker 1: of college and you graduate four you years later, your

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Speaker 1: DEA's three thousand dollars. Unsubsidized loans begin accruing interests right away.

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Speaker 2: So in this way, your balance will increase over time

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Speaker 2: and is.

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Speaker 1: Actually shockingly easy to get a loan and that's how

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Speaker 1: I was designed. Federal student loans were created for anyone

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Speaker 1: who wanted to pursue higher education. Yeah, did you know

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Speaker 1: you don't even have to have a credit check to

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Speaker 1: get a federal loan. You got to get a credit

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Speaker 1: check to get like a washing machine. These days, if

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Speaker 1: I want to open a five hundred dollars store car,

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Speaker 1: that's a credit check. But if I want to take

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Speaker 1: out ten thousand dollars in loans at age eighteen, no

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Speaker 1: problem nothing.

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Speaker 2: There is kind of this tenant of federal law that

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Speaker 2: says we should loans are an entitlement. We should give

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Speaker 2: loans to anybody who wants to borrow a loan to

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Speaker 2: enroll in higher education. And that's kind of like a

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Speaker 2: great thing about student loans, right, Like I would not

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Speaker 2: have been able to go to the college I went

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Speaker 2: to without student debt. I was able to take on

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Speaker 2: student debt, and I'm very successful now, like I'm a

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Speaker 2: success story of student loans. But for a lot of

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Speaker 2: people that is not the case.

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Speaker 1: Right people are drowning in debt and unable to pay

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Speaker 1: their loans back. It's a mess out there. Student loan

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Speaker 1: reform has become a major part of a lot of

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Speaker 1: the presidential candidates platforms. Yeah, the presidential candidates for twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty are popping up, and a lot of the conversation

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Speaker 1: has shifted to student loans and student loan debt. But

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Speaker 1: why are student loans becoming a problem for so many people? Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like there are many reasons why

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Speaker 1: the current system isn't working, and one of them is

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Speaker 1: that some colleges haven't been playing fair.

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Speaker 2: A lot of schools have really taken advantage of these

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Speaker 2: programs and taken advantage of students. So if you think

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Speaker 2: of things like for profit colleges that have been like

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Speaker 2: predatory trying to get people to enroll so that they

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Speaker 2: can make all, you know, tons and tons of money

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Speaker 2: off of these students and not offer them a high

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Speaker 2: quality education, then really those are the people who are

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Speaker 2: in really bad shape.

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Speaker 1: That's kind of like how UNO's trying to change the rules,

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Speaker 1: how they're saying that you can't put a draw to

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Speaker 1: on top of a draw four, because that's exactly what

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Speaker 1: the government is doing, right, And I absolutely draw six.

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Speaker 1: You need to draw six cards. I think student loans

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Speaker 1: are worth to fly and is like draw eight loans

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Speaker 1: like draw eight and also never buy a house, You'll

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Speaker 1: never be able to afford it. Another reason is that

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Speaker 1: a lot of people who take out loans to go

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Speaker 1: to college don't end up finishing, making it more difficult

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Speaker 1: for them to find a job that allow them to

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Speaker 1: pay off their student debt.

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Speaker 2: Typically, what we end up seeing is that people will

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Speaker 2: enroll in either for profit colleges or community colleges, be

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Speaker 2: enrolled for a semester or a year, and just be like,

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Speaker 2: I can't do this. Life is getting in the way.

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Speaker 2: I'm taking care of children, I'm taking care of my family.

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Speaker 2: I need to work. And they drop out of school

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Speaker 2: and then they have these smaller loan balances and they

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Speaker 2: just can't repay them.

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Speaker 1: And for some people, it's like they're running on a treadmill, right.

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Speaker 1: So even though they're making monthly payments, their interest rate

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Speaker 1: is too high for them to make a dint in

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Speaker 1: their overall loan a miilt, and even if they make

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Speaker 1: a dent, those interest rates just pop those dents back out. Yep.

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Speaker 2: There are instances where people go into what's called negative amortization,

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Speaker 2: which basically means that their balance is increasing even though

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Speaker 2: they're making pays on that debt.

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Speaker 1: And so then what happens when you can't pay. When

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Speaker 1: you can't pay, you run the risk of defaulting on

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Speaker 1: your loans, which can have really serious consequences. Yeah, if

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Speaker 1: you have default on the loan, that's a ding on

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Speaker 1: your credit score. But also defaulting on your student loan

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Speaker 1: means that the government might try to get that money

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Speaker 1: in other ways. So they might take your tax return,

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Speaker 1: or they might garnish your wages. So they're going to

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Speaker 1: be going into your check that you're getting from your

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Speaker 1: job and saying, I'll take a little bit of that,

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Speaker 1: thank you, that's mine. Did you know they can even

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Speaker 1: sue your employer? Oh my gosh. Of the forty three

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Speaker 1: million people currently struggling with student loan debt, nine million

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Speaker 1: are in default. But they're not who you think.

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Speaker 2: And so what we actually end up seeing is that

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Speaker 2: the people who default on their federal student loans are

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Speaker 2: people largely who didn't finish college, and they have much

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Speaker 2: much lower balances than the people who are actually paying

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Speaker 2: down their loans.

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Speaker 1: So when Colleen says much lower balances, she means like

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Speaker 1: less than ten thousand dollars. That is crazy, Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: you would think that people default on their loans. There

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Speaker 1: are people that have li seven hundred and fifty thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars in student loan debt right and they just can't

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Speaker 1: sustain those payments.

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Speaker 2: You'll hear news stories about people has like six figures

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Speaker 2: in debt and like, how are they paying it? We

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Speaker 2: actually have options to help those people, and those people

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Speaker 2: tend to use those options a whole lot more than

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Speaker 2: people who are taking on smaller amounts of debt, dropping

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Speaker 2: out of school and then defaulting on their debt.

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Speaker 1: When we come back from the break, we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about how people are paying off their debts and

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Speaker 1: who's benefiting from the current programs in place and who's not.

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Speaker 1: We're back, So in the first half of the show

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Speaker 1: we really focused on the ins and outs of student

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Speaker 1: loan debt. How much is there, how does it work,

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Speaker 1: you know all that stuff. Now we want to turn

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Speaker 1: to diagnosing the problem. And one thing I'm really curious

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Speaker 1: about is how long has this been a problem. It

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Speaker 1: definitely feels like the amount of overall student loan debt

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Speaker 1: has exploded recently. Is that true?

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Speaker 2: What we've seen is really a big jump in indebtedness

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Speaker 2: over the last decade In particular. So when we think

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Speaker 2: about the recession that happened, what typically happens during recessions

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Speaker 2: is lots of people in roll in college. What that

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Speaker 2: also means if we're not investing grant aid, is a

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Speaker 2: lot of indebtedness.

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Speaker 1: And when you're in a recession, you don't have a

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Speaker 1: lot of money and there's not a lot of jobs available,

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Speaker 1: so you go to college and you take on some debt.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, the price tag for college education

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Speaker 1: has also gone up, and programs like the pilgrimt they

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Speaker 1: don't cover as much as they.

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Speaker 2: Used to As time has gone on, what people, basically

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Speaker 2: legislators have said is we're going to instead put all

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Speaker 2: of our kind of eggs in the student loan basket.

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Speaker 1: So student loans used to be a tool just for

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Speaker 1: the middle class and upper middle income people, but now

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Speaker 1: it's a tool for college access for everyone.

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Speaker 2: And we're seeing that it's having real disperate affects, particularly

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Speaker 2: for borrowers of color.

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Speaker 1: So even though it feels like the expansion of student

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Speaker 1: loan debt would make college more accessible to everyone, is

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Speaker 1: not that simple, right. It's a little more smoke and

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Speaker 1: mirrors than it might initially see. So what's actually happening.

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Speaker 1: So imagine we have this pot of money that's focused

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Speaker 1: on people with high financial need. It covers seventy five

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Speaker 1: percent of their expenses and they don't have to pay

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Speaker 1: it back after college. That's the pail grant. Then legislators decided, nah,

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Speaker 1: we won't spend so much money on the pelgrant program. Instead,

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Speaker 1: we'll encourage student loans for everyone. Now more people can

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Speaker 1: go to college. But there's an unintended or maybe intended

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Speaker 1: who knows side effect of this. Now you have people

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Speaker 1: with great financial need using a pel grant, But now

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Speaker 1: since legislators have disinvested, the pil grant will only cover

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Speaker 1: about thirty percent of their expenses and they're taking student

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Speaker 1: loans for the other seventy percent of their costs. And remember,

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Speaker 1: student loans, unlike peil grants, have to be paid back.

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Speaker 1: So when people say, oh, my granddad went to college

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Speaker 1: on the pel grant in nineteen sixty five, yeah, brah,

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Speaker 1: that pel grant cover most of his costs. You didn't

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Speaker 1: have to pay a bet. So my cousin who went

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Speaker 1: to public institution is drowning in student loans and entering

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Speaker 1: into a much more competitive job market and earning less

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Speaker 1: with her college degree and paying back way more coins

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Speaker 1: than your granddad could ever see how that works. With

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Speaker 1: all these people in debt, there are a bunch of

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Speaker 1: government assistance programs set up to help with repayment. Right.

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Speaker 1: There's income based repayment, where a portion of your income

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Speaker 1: is exempt before you start paying off your loan. There's

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Speaker 1: also a program called Public Service Loan Forgiveness for people

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Speaker 1: who work at nonprofits, where the remainder of their debt

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Speaker 1: is forgiven after ten years. And then there are specialized

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Speaker 1: forgiveness programs for specific careers like teachers, nurses, and people

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Speaker 1: in the military. But with nine million people defaulting on

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Speaker 1: loans that are under ten thousand dollars, something isn't working. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what's keeping those folks from getting the help that they need.

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Speaker 2: So there's a little bit of a mix, right, So,

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Speaker 2: some people leave school not knowing that they have student

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Speaker 2: loan debt. Some students also believe that if they don't

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Speaker 2: finish their education that they aren't going to oh the

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Speaker 2: loan back, which is not true. But again it's kind

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Speaker 2: of there's an information gap going on.

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Speaker 1: Another barrier is that you can go a really long

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Speaker 1: period of time without paying your loans. So unlike with

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Speaker 1: a private loan, you can just let a federal loan

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Speaker 1: sit up to a year actually, and if there aren't

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Speaker 1: any consequences for that long period of time, it just

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Speaker 1: gets easier and easier to get complacent about paying off

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Speaker 1: your loans, and then all of a sudden, here comes

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Speaker 1: the government knocking at your dough. Well, why are people

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Speaker 1: waiting until the government is knocking on your door? Like,

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Speaker 1: why aren't people taking advantage of some of the programs

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Speaker 1: that are available.

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Speaker 2: These plans can be really administratively difficult to get into

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Speaker 2: because you got to call your loan service you're up,

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Speaker 2: You got to do a form online, you have to

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Speaker 2: verify with the IRS what your income is. It's kind

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Speaker 2: of a pain in the butt, right, But also the

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Speaker 2: other thing with income driven repayment, you got to certify

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Speaker 2: your income every single year.

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Speaker 1: Every year until you're done paying your loan off. I

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Speaker 1: don't remember to do anything. I would totally forget that.

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Speaker 1: There was one time I walked out of my apartment

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Speaker 1: with no shoes on and got in the car and

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Speaker 1: started driving and then almost made it to work with

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Speaker 1: no shoes on. You can't ask me to do things

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Speaker 1: like that. Every year, I will not remember where's Steve Jobs.

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Speaker 1: If my iPad can talk to my Apple Watch, that

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Speaker 1: can talk to my computer, and my Apple Watch can

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Speaker 1: unlock my laptop, and truly, we can figure out a

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Speaker 1: better system for the IRS to talk to the Department

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Speaker 1: of Education. So it's pretty obvious at this point that

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Speaker 1: the policies and programs that we currently have in place

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Speaker 1: aren't for everybody. In fact, sometimes instead of helping like

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Speaker 1: the programs designed to do, it's actually damaging for people.

435
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,280
Speaker 1: So naturally, the people who are most affected by this

436
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 1: are the people who are borrowing more not more money,

437
00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,280
Speaker 1: but more often. Colleen says, we see stark differences in

438
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:45,840
Speaker 1: borrowing rates by race.

439
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,320
Speaker 2: For white students, it's about fifty four percent of them borrow.

440
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,159
Speaker 2: Black students about seventy one percent of them borrow Latin

441
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:57,200
Speaker 2: next students it's about forty four percent, and Asian students

442
00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:58,640
Speaker 2: it's about thirty percent.

443
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,600
Speaker 1: From all that you should know is that the outlier

444
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,959
Speaker 1: of all of these groups are African Americans. Seventy one

445
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,720
Speaker 1: percent of them are getting student loans. That's twenty percentage

446
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,879
Speaker 1: points higher than the average student. That's significant.

447
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,840
Speaker 2: So What we have also seen is that default rates

448
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,720
Speaker 2: are higher for people of color, particularly African Americans, and

449
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,560
Speaker 2: even African Americans with bachelor's degrees are much more likely

450
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,040
Speaker 2: to default on their loans than white folks.

451
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,919
Speaker 1: That's just the tip of the iceberg, right, because if

452
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,720
Speaker 1: you look below the water, there's something. There's another elephant

453
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:32,480
Speaker 1: in the room that we're not talking about. There's another

454
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:36,240
Speaker 1: polar bear hanging on to the iceberg, okay, and that's

455
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:40,240
Speaker 1: pay inequality and wage discrimination. And when you put those

456
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,639
Speaker 1: things in on top of trying to pay a student loan.

457
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:47,159
Speaker 2: It becomes even more difficult because people of color end

458
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 2: up having higher borrowing rates. Overall, they are being disproportionately

459
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,840
Speaker 2: hampered by their student loan dead And so we really

460
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 2: need to think through equity focused policies that are not

461
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:03,920
Speaker 2: compounding things like labor market discrimination and wage discrimination and

462
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,880
Speaker 2: putting people in a worse off position than they are

463
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 2: from the get go.

464
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,679
Speaker 1: So Colleen says, we need to refocus the policies to

465
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 1: help students in the most need, not necessarily the students

466
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,719
Speaker 1: with the most debt, because often the people who have

467
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,480
Speaker 1: the most debt also have the highest income. They're going

468
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,000
Speaker 1: to undergrad grad school to getting a doctorate. Their doctor

469
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,640
Speaker 1: is doctorate, and they're the ones benefiting the most from

470
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 1: these debt relief programs that are currently in place.

471
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 2: So this is where like some criticism of Elizabeth Warren's

472
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 2: plan has come in.

473
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,439
Speaker 1: Remember, Elizabeth Warren's plan would forgive up to fifty thousand

474
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,679
Speaker 1: dollars a student debt for families that make up to

475
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 1: one hundred thousand dollars, and then there's even some form

476
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,160
Speaker 1: of relief for families who earn up to two hundred

477
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,159
Speaker 1: and fifty thousand dollars. That's a lot of money in

478
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:46,640
Speaker 1: my book, So you know, you.

479
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 2: Could be still be getting forty thousand dollars of loan

480
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,080
Speaker 2: forgiveness if you're making one hundred and fifty two hundred

481
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:52,679
Speaker 2: thousand dollars.

482
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,720
Speaker 1: I follow a lot of people on higher education on Twitter,

483
00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 1: and the Internet was rumbling. Okay, Hire was saying like,

484
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 1: oh no, this is impossible. I had to pay stodo loans.

485
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:05,640
Speaker 1: Other people should have to pay student loans, and that

486
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:07,359
Speaker 1: is backwards, do me.

487
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 2: There are lots of folks in kind of like the

488
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 2: DC policy space who have been frustrated that we are

489
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 2: going to be spending a lot of money on people

490
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 2: who have good salaries or making a good amount of money.

491
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,639
Speaker 2: Then you have other people coming at this from well,

492
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 2: people shouldn't be taking on debt for college in the

493
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 2: first place. This should never have been a thing. And

494
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 2: so you know, and to make this politically feasible, we

495
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 2: need to offer something to high income people, because we'll

496
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 2: only give something to low income people if we give

497
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:35,879
Speaker 2: it to high income people.

498
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,639
Speaker 1: Let me tell you the high income people got the

499
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 1: gift is the high income I am so glad we

500
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: did this episode. We learned so much about student debt

501
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,120
Speaker 1: and the current situation with higher ed I mean, I'm

502
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: just happy that student loans now that I know, is

503
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,640
Speaker 1: one point by trillion dollars where we need to talk

504
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 1: about it. We need to talk. So I'm glad it's

505
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 1: on the table, absolutely, and I'm hoping that a lot

506
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,959
Speaker 1: more of the candidates will respond to that. And her

507
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,399
Speaker 1: talking about it in this way is forcing all of

508
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 1: them to talk about it, which is another reason why

509
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: I think it was a good thing for her to

510
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 1: put out because now all of the other candidates have

511
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 1: to include that in their platform because she's going to

512
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:22,879
Speaker 1: talk about it, so they have to talk about it,

513
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,360
Speaker 1: and this is something that is affecting all of us.

514
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 1: Even if you didn't take out a student loan, it

515
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 1: is affecting you because it's affecting our economy. Yeah, and

516
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 1: while that proposal may not be perfect, is getting the

517
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 1: ball rolling right because the one thing that this has

518
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 1: really hit home for me is that students are making

519
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 1: these decisions at age seventeen, eighteen, twenty two, twenty five.

520
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 1: And it is like one of those story books where

521
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,199
Speaker 1: it's like, turn page twenty two for this adventure. And

522
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 1: if you accidentally take the wrong combination of student loans,

523
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,639
Speaker 1: or you don't pay something really early, you turn to

524
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: page forty and you missing an miss you drowning a debt,

525
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: you drown it, and you swimming in the sally Made

526
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 1: River with cement feet. Okay, and so now what how

527
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 1: do you recover from that? And it's a lot for

528
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 1: somebody to recover from what you're so young and just

529
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 1: trying to make it in this life. We know that

530
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 1: education is the catalyst for the American dream basically right,

531
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,640
Speaker 1: and access to education is so important, but how you

532
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: access that education can derail or propel your life by

533
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 1: leaps and bounds and it's so early on and it

534
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 1: touches so many. It's bigger than it's it's deeper than

535
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 1: rap is bigger than just college loan debt is equity

536
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 1: in hiring, pay housing? Right is it extends to So

537
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: if you're saddled with student loan debt, what does that

538
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: mean for your credit and your ability to buy a house,

539
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 1: or your ability to buy a car, your ability to

540
00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 1: pick up and move and even get some jobs. Some

541
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 1: they run your credit and if you have a lot

542
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 1: of debt or you're not making those payments, you will

543
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 1: be blocked out of certain jobs, in certain positions. I

544
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: didn't even know that now's the time to really look

545
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 1: and say, like, are we saying that we value education

546
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: and are we saying that this is something that increases

547
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,199
Speaker 1: quality of life? And if it is, why are we

548
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: making the barriers so high to obtain it? Exactly? It's like,

549
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: who are you trying to keep out with that barrier? Yeah, So,

550
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 1: as the conversation starts to ramp up around student loans,

551
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 1: the student loan forgiveness, we really want to ask Colleen,

552
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: what are some things we should be considering.

553
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 2: I think that having conversations with friends who are progressive.

554
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 2: That really trying to get people to understand that just

555
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 2: because it benefits them doesn't mean it's progressive, and that

556
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 2: they need to do a lot more thinking about like

557
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 2: what this country looks like as a whole and getting

558
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 2: a much better sense of, like, you know, the fact

559
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 2: that their experience is not other people's experience.

560
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 1: That's it for Lab seven. Don't forget to check out

561
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,360
Speaker 1: our website for a cheat sheet and the show notes

562
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 1: from today's episode. You can find that and sign up

563
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 1: for our newsletter at Dope Labs podcast dot com. And

564
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: we had a really long conversation with Colleen, and there's

565
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:20,880
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that we just didn't have time

566
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: to put into this episode. So what we're planning on

567
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 1: doing is Instagram Live with Colleen where she can answer

568
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 1: more of your questions about student loan, student loan debt, repayment, forgiveness,

569
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 1: all of that. And so make sure you follow us

570
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: on Instagram at Dope Labs podcast so that you can

571
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: know when that's going to be happening, and keep calling.

572
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 1: We love hearing from you. What did you think about

573
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 1: today's episode? What other questions do you have? Share your

574
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: story with us. Our number is two o two five

575
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 1: six seven seven zero two eight. You can find Zakiya

576
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: at Z Said So on Instagram and Twitter, and you

577
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 1: can find tt at Doctor Underscore t Sho and if

578
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: you love the show, don't forget to follow us on

579
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. Special Thanks today

580
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: our guests Colleen Campbell follow her on Twitter at Colle

581
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: camp That's co O L L e C. A m

582
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 1: p Our producer is Jenny Rattle at MASTS. Mixing in

583
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: sound design by Hannis Brown, original theme music by Taka

584
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 1: Yasuzawa and Alex Sugiura. Additional music by Elijah Lex Harvey.

585
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: Dope Labs is brought to you by three M and

586
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 1: is a production of Spotify Studios and Mega Own Media

587
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,439
Speaker 1: Group and is executive produced by us T. T Shidia

588
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 1: and Zakiah Wattley. And folks are drowning in debt, and

589
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: that worries me because I know you can't swim. I'm

590
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 1: gonna learn. I'm gonna learn this summer. This summer, it's on,

591
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: it's in the cards. I'm gonna learn this summer. Somebody

592
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: needs to throw a life rap. Do we have enough

593
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 1: life raps? This is the governmental life, rap bankruptcy. I

594
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: don't know, I know, declare bankrupt