Speaker 1: Jeff, I called you, Jeff, Yes, absolutely, m M. Golf.
Speaker 1: Is that they anything in golf that doesn't change the
Speaker 1: anything that changes the best in playing? Does this man
Speaker 1: a one time winner on the PGA Tour? The point
Speaker 1: Alan is he didn't go Hollywood. You need a fourth
Speaker 1: Before we get to the episode, we should tip our
Speaker 1: caps to echo our corporate sponsors here and of course
Speaker 1: Lydia co the New World Number one is a long
Speaker 1: time Echo ambassador. Michael do do you know my affection
Speaker 1: for Lydia and I share it? Just a charming person
Speaker 1: and an outstanding golfer. You've done her far better than I.
Speaker 1: What can you tell us about her? Well? I still
Speaker 1: have her hat from the Olympics in Rio is his
Speaker 1: gorgeous New Zealand hat, and asked for I could keep it.
Speaker 1: She said yes. But one time I was talking to her,
Speaker 1: I said, where does your power come from? She says,
Speaker 1: it's from the ground. You know. It's like a really
Speaker 1: old school. And she has beautiful footwork. And I always
Speaker 1: watched her swing the club and she's like she's dancing.
Speaker 1: And as I'm as I'm observing this, I always noticed
Speaker 1: her her Echo biome shoes like they just seem to
Speaker 1: give her superpowers. Have you observed anything along those lines? Well,
Speaker 1: you know what the great teachers say, there's only one
Speaker 1: thing that connects you to the ground in this game,
Speaker 1: and that's your They don't say your echo shoes, but
Speaker 1: in this case, it is her echo shoes. So that's
Speaker 1: pretty cool. The secret to lydia Co's success, along with
Speaker 1: many other talents. But she's wearing the right footwears all
Speaker 1: right back to na fourth. I think it's appropriate that
Speaker 1: just a minute ago, Jeff Ogilvie and my distinguished colleague
Speaker 1: and I observed Alan Ship fixing his hair because many
Speaker 1: people would say that our next guest has one of
Speaker 1: the great heads of hair, and all of golf shipnuks
Speaker 1: on the short list. Uh, Robert Rock, Jeff, you ever
Speaker 1: played with Robert Rock? Robert Rock go fantastic, Hay antasted
Speaker 1: to her, how's this golf game? Um? Probably the most
Speaker 1: admired golf swaying to our Actually, Robert Rock is a
Speaker 1: fantastic golf swing, and he is the he's the man
Speaker 1: to go to for questions about technique. But held, his
Speaker 1: hair is probably better than his swing. He's got he's got,
Speaker 1: he's got our guest test by blues hair. But I
Speaker 1: don't want you to try to guess it just on
Speaker 1: that basis, because I want to say this about our
Speaker 1: guest first. So I was I was at the Father's
Speaker 1: Son event last year and Roger was there. The course
Speaker 1: whisper Alan, Can he help us out? Who's the course whisper?
Speaker 1: Roger Maltby? Roger Maltby, And I said to Roger, the
Speaker 1: course whisper does aunt Trevino is there? Does anybody know
Speaker 1: more about the golf swing? Then Trevino and Rodge like
Speaker 1: a lot of professional golfers, super precise, and he said,
Speaker 1: I would say that nobody knows more about his or
Speaker 1: her own swing. Then Buck leave Buck Trevino knows about
Speaker 1: his own swing. And I thought that was a very
Speaker 1: nuanced answer. But our guest today and then we'll really
Speaker 1: open up for you guys to identify the guests is
Speaker 1: absolutely on the shortlist of the six people in the
Speaker 1: world who are the most knowledgeable about the golf swing.
Speaker 1: Anyone cared to try on on that basis hair knowledgeable
Speaker 1: about the golf swing, Um, it's it's it's not lead better.
Speaker 1: He never takes his hat off, put Harmon's bald um.
Speaker 1: I got Grady, Oh my god, great head of hair
Speaker 1: back to the day, but I haven't seen since the eighties. Actually, Oh,
Speaker 1: Grady's hair is bamburger esque when now that I think
Speaker 1: about it, Yeah, yeah, you know he he had Well, okay,
Speaker 1: is this is this man of one time winner on
Speaker 1: the PGA Tour. This man is a winner in life
Speaker 1: and on the man warmth, Jeff, You've played multiple, multiple
Speaker 1: rounds of golf with this guy, this this distinguished guest
Speaker 1: of bars. Although I don't know that for sure, but
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know how that could not be possible.
Speaker 1: And he warmed up next to Tiger Woods at the
Speaker 1: two thousand US Open on the Pebble Beach course, and
Speaker 1: he was trying to do his own thing. He was
Speaker 1: in the field and uh, and like any of us,
Speaker 1: he couldn't stop looking. Uh. And he said to himself,
Speaker 1: then this guy's gonna win by fifteen. Oh. That's another
Speaker 1: quality of this guest of ours. He's good at predicting things,
Speaker 1: often based on statistical analysis. He has a great head
Speaker 1: for the golf swing. He's got a great head of hair,
Speaker 1: and he's got a great head for statistical analysis. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna say, Brandy sham believe, Jeff, are you gonna second
Speaker 1: that um Brando does have good hair? Is he super
Speaker 1: people out the golf swing? Well, he says debate Randal
Speaker 1: Sham Blake, come on and yes, Brandella, No, I was
Speaker 1: being kept in the dark called purpose. So it's probably best.
Speaker 1: It's probably best. Sorry I missed it, probably for the better.
Speaker 1: Tune in. It's it's a pleasure to join you, guys,
Speaker 1: Jeff Alan, Michael, how are you, guys? Where are you guys?
Speaker 1: All over the world? In California? Just down under? I'm
Speaker 1: in Philadelphia. Where are you, Brendle, I'm at Scottsdale. I'm
Speaker 1: home as well. I've been home for the last two
Speaker 1: weeks or so, something like that. But I leave tomorrow
Speaker 1: the head to the East Coast, which is a common
Speaker 1: occurrence these days for Mace. It's called channel move to Connecticut.
Speaker 1: I'm deeply curious how many books on your bookcase in
Speaker 1: the background. It is in the same bookcase behind Michael.
Speaker 1: I want it's for another time. We'll have to sort
Speaker 1: that out, but there's got to be a few that
Speaker 1: you both have on those sagging shelves. It's funny. I
Speaker 1: got some of Michael's behind me. I know that, I uh,
Speaker 1: I got, I got there, you go. I didn't take
Speaker 1: long to find one of Michael. Yeah, the Second Life
Speaker 1: of Tiger Woods, Yeah that got that got dated really fast.
Speaker 1: You play with brands Brandon was obviously been a long time.
Speaker 1: Did we did we play? We must have? You know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I looked you turned pro? Is that correct? Something like that?
Speaker 1: And so yeah, you straightaway got onto the European tour,
Speaker 1: but I think you made your way to the PG
Speaker 1: eight tour like two thousand thousand one something like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I got three Q school Dan to two thousand started
Speaker 1: in two thousand one. Yeah, he was still definitely out
Speaker 1: there at that point. Ryan, Yeah, I didn't leave. Well,
Speaker 1: I wasn't around for much longer after that. So two
Speaker 1: thousand and two was last year I was fully exempt,
Speaker 1: and then at two thousand three I I played a
Speaker 1: little on the tour, but mostly I was doing television
Speaker 1: by then. But I remember hearing about Jeff, uh really
Speaker 1: first from Yeah. I mean, of course I would have
Speaker 1: seen you or maybe played with you or something, but
Speaker 1: really hearing about Jeff from Gary McCord. I guess he
Speaker 1: was a frequent partner of yours. A gray Hawk or
Speaker 1: not a gray Whisper Rock. Uh, I don't know. Two
Speaker 1: thousand three or four or five, somewhere in there you
Speaker 1: would have been a member. When did you join Whisper Rock.
Speaker 1: I joined whisp Rock. I think towards the end of
Speaker 1: two thousand and two. I think, um, yeah, and I
Speaker 1: played with Magic almost every day. I think there for
Speaker 1: a while, which I don't know. If I think there's
Speaker 1: benefits to your golf education and some hindurance, theres right.
Speaker 1: I'd tell you what, He's got a damn good record
Speaker 1: at telling me who's gonna be awesome? Uh. In addition
Speaker 1: to you, uh, which he's saying your praises. Long before
Speaker 1: you won the US Open, you know, he was like,
Speaker 1: you gotta watch this guy. Um what was it? You know?
Speaker 1: He said, he it's at nine miles hits straight up
Speaker 1: in the air, and he's got a great touch. I
Speaker 1: was like, okay, all those things work. Another time, I
Speaker 1: was on a plane flying to Pebble Beach album and
Speaker 1: Gary McCord was sitting behind me. And now, Gary and
Speaker 1: I've got along great forever. I mean, we've been buds forever.
Speaker 1: I did a lot of hiking with Gary. I've spent
Speaker 1: a lot of time with Gary. I just love him.
Speaker 1: I've argued I think he's one of the fifty best
Speaker 1: things that's happened to golf in the last fifty years.
Speaker 1: Many times I think I even wrote that one. But
Speaker 1: um anyway, he set behind me and he just won't
Speaker 1: leave me alone, you know, and he's like, oh, you
Speaker 1: got you gotta you gotta see this guy swing. You
Speaker 1: gotta see this guy swing. And he comes up and
Speaker 1: I mean, like, now the entire front of the plane
Speaker 1: is interested in this guy's golf swing. And it was
Speaker 1: bryceon d Shambo's golf swing when he was a senior
Speaker 1: or junior at SMU, and I was the first time
Speaker 1: I've ever seen it. And he was like, no, he
Speaker 1: really does. He's a one point. You gotta see this
Speaker 1: as more normous blah blah blah. And we're drawing lines
Speaker 1: and we're doing all this stuff. And then in a
Speaker 1: blink of an eye, I was playing in a straight
Speaker 1: down event, uh, and Bryson was in the event, and
Speaker 1: and you know, I had raged against the golf machine
Speaker 1: for years, and I was so curious because he was
Speaker 1: the first guy to come along, at least in my view,
Speaker 1: and adopt ideas from the golf machine, who I would
Speaker 1: say was better off because of that. Now, obviously that's
Speaker 1: open to debate, but that's my view, and so I
Speaker 1: was curious how he did it. So in the locker room,
Speaker 1: I was like, holy hell, wait a minute, you don't
Speaker 1: swing anything like all these guys who adopted golf machine philosophies.
Speaker 1: And he goes, well, that's because I've I've got my
Speaker 1: own view, you know, and there's a million of them
Speaker 1: in there, and off he goes. And I don't know
Speaker 1: that I said another word for an hour and a half,
Speaker 1: and uh and and and off he went. Now this
Speaker 1: is before he ever hit a shot on the PGA tour.
Speaker 1: Uh So, anyway, that was a Gary McCord watch out
Speaker 1: for this guy spot on, you know, dead ringer called
Speaker 1: by Gary. So uh I diverge. We get back to
Speaker 1: Jeff Ogilvie, and I think my favorite Jeff Ogilvie's story.
Speaker 1: And Jeff, you can tell you this is true because
Speaker 1: I've told this story before, and hell if I even
Speaker 1: though it's true, but I'm from Texas and rarely do
Speaker 1: you will let facts get into the way of a
Speaker 1: great story. But I hope it's true and that the
Speaker 1: year you won the US Open, you played in the
Speaker 1: Club Championship at Whisper Rock and did not win. Is
Speaker 1: that is that story? True? True story? Yeah? I never
Speaker 1: won the I never won the club Championship. Wispro. I think, um,
Speaker 1: I probably played it four or five times, and that
Speaker 1: might be the hardest tournament to win in the world.
Speaker 1: I think club damship, I mean this club golfers tour
Speaker 1: players regularly that cracks who beat you? Who beat you?
Speaker 1: You won the national championship of our country, one of
Speaker 1: the four majors, and you couldn't win your damn club championship?
Speaker 1: Who beat you? If you guys won that? When I played,
Speaker 1: I mean Jim Strickland, you know it's tricky. Played Arizona
Speaker 1: State with Phil Yeah, he was my player, straight down. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was it. Yeah. Yeah to Dempsey wanted a couple
Speaker 1: of times, I think days, Um yeah, to a player,
Speaker 1: UM yeah, I never managed. It was tough. I mean,
Speaker 1: you've got probably I don't know, three or four two
Speaker 1: of guys play it every year, and you've got five
Speaker 1: or six or seven or eight other guys who have
Speaker 1: thought of I sue golfers sort of sort of failed pros,
Speaker 1: but they still find themselves into jobs where they don't
Speaker 1: have to work and they just play golf every day,
Speaker 1: you know, like it's, um, it's an incredibly high standard.
Speaker 1: What isn't there one day where they set the I
Speaker 1: don't think it's a club championship. I think something else
Speaker 1: where they set the pins and crazy spots and the
Speaker 1: greens are at fifteen it's tipped out. It's like hell
Speaker 1: day or something. What what is that, Jeff? It's the
Speaker 1: battle of attrition? Yeah, um, And they set the course
Speaker 1: up as ridiculous as they can. Yeah, and um, it's
Speaker 1: supposed to be a joke, but it's kind of fun
Speaker 1: for the good players. I mean, if you break eight,
Speaker 1: you've probably it's like it's tough with the Nookemont set
Speaker 1: up tough, you know, it's like out of control difficult. Um.
Speaker 1: And every now and then some pros somehow manages to
Speaker 1: keep it under the whole all day and shoot seventy
Speaker 1: one or something. But most guys are shooting high seventies
Speaker 1: and eighties, and this is a course where we're kind
Speaker 1: of pretty regularly shooting in the sixties. So um. But
Speaker 1: then they have the the the obverse to that um.
Speaker 1: On St Patrick's Day they play the Green Tea where
Speaker 1: we all go out of the very very maxifulward days
Speaker 1: and just drawing at every poth fule grain and we
Speaker 1: try to shoot in the fifties and stuff. So like,
Speaker 1: give us a die. How does it convey in the
Speaker 1: dye wards? It's the easiest convey and that kind of
Speaker 1: the finest dice. That ye. So um. Good fun. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they don't have a problem finding fun at the Whisper
Speaker 1: Rock Alan, I gotta say, you look like you like
Speaker 1: your Henry David Thureaux or something there in that house.
Speaker 1: You look like you did you build that house yourself?
Speaker 1: Are you? Are? You like you're just sitting in there
Speaker 1: with a chair and a table and that's it. It's
Speaker 1: like this Austere lifestyles. This is an old house and
Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties in Carmel and the guy who who
Speaker 1: basically built it, that's his kayak and it lights up
Speaker 1: at night. There's there's um, you know, over my right shoulder,
Speaker 1: there's there's illuminates and it was a seaworthy vessel. It's
Speaker 1: hard to imagine and then these these are lights were
Speaker 1: fishing baskets have been repurposed and there's a there's a
Speaker 1: hanging light. It was the spine of a of like
Speaker 1: a wind primitive insurfer. It's made of wood. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's really beautiful. So it's all the old carmel Stone fireplace,
Speaker 1: so it's it's got some character. But yeah, I know
Speaker 1: there's a lot of jokes because I don't even really
Speaker 1: The thing about social media you have to really sweep
Speaker 1: the background. You have to think carefully about anything it's
Speaker 1: in the view of the trolls because they won't pick
Speaker 1: up on the most random items that you don't even notice.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, there's always a lot of jokes about
Speaker 1: the boat house. But right the screenshot and then zoom in,
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, they're crazy, I know. And then try
Speaker 1: to cancel you for something you have in your background. Yeah,
Speaker 1: brand out there, you're gonna get the observation that Schipnuk
Speaker 1: was that a retreat for the Jewish theological seminary gathering
Speaker 1: of Rabbi's somewhere in the California Redwoods, because he's looking
Speaker 1: more and more like rap here. But it's all good
Speaker 1: I'd like to brag about and I do this periodically, Brandle,
Speaker 1: and one could easily do it of you and not
Speaker 1: too many other people who have went on tour. Uh.
Speaker 1: Mr Ogilvy just dropped a word that I've never in
Speaker 1: my life used once of obverse? Was it? Did I
Speaker 1: use it in the right contact that I would? Sure?
Speaker 1: It was perfect? And I'm going to send you at
Speaker 1: some point. And brands are very talented. I mean, of course,
Speaker 1: one of the great keen observers of of of the
Speaker 1: modern day golf life there is, but Brandon, you'll you'll
Speaker 1: love to see this. Chevnik and I were on with
Speaker 1: Jeff shortly before the the Open on the on the
Speaker 1: old course, and uh, we just asked him, you know,
Speaker 1: what do you think the course? And he went on
Speaker 1: for about I don't know, Hollan, would you say two
Speaker 1: and a half minutes? It was longer than that, much
Speaker 1: longer than that. And and Brandon, you could literally you
Speaker 1: could just insert a couple of semicolons here and there
Speaker 1: and just run it in Sports Illustrated tomorrow. It was.
Speaker 1: It was such a beautiful statement on what what the old?
Speaker 1: If I could pay Jeff a compliment, I you know,
Speaker 1: every time I read Jeff Uh, I think it's hard
Speaker 1: to believe that guy got that good at golf because
Speaker 1: it looks like he spent that much time writing. So
Speaker 1: you're a wonderful writer. Obviously you're very smart. So um.
Speaker 1: You know, often the conversation uh in in golf TV
Speaker 1: circles is who would make a great commentator or analyst?
Speaker 1: You know, they're they're on the constant lookout. But your
Speaker 1: name is always at the top of the list. So
Speaker 1: I'm sure you're still ready to play, and you're still
Speaker 1: gonna keep playing and all that. But but there's a
Speaker 1: career waiting for you out there talking about golf for sure,
Speaker 1: and writing about it. I still I still wake up
Speaker 1: thinking about hating golf shots, not watching golf shots. You know,
Speaker 1: it's really really hard to kill that bug. I get it.
Speaker 1: I hit golf balls. My wife and I played the
Speaker 1: last three days, UH, and then I went out and
Speaker 1: she took off to place. He's with a group of
Speaker 1: girls playing Pioneers today. But I went out hit golf
Speaker 1: balls today. I'm sixty years old and I'm thinking about
Speaker 1: going to Q school UH in December. The bug never
Speaker 1: leaves you. You have a couple of good rounds and
Speaker 1: I think, oh, yeah, I got it, you know, And
Speaker 1: these days, at sixty, getting it really is just when
Speaker 1: you wake up and your back doesn't hurt, your almost
Speaker 1: don't hurt, your wrist on hurt, and I think, oh, well,
Speaker 1: hell I can. I can still play this game. The
Speaker 1: bug never leaves you. So tell me do you think,
Speaker 1: I mean, you've obviously analyzed the golfing a lot and
Speaker 1: thought about it and messed around with it and observed
Speaker 1: a lot in the last twenty or thirty years. Do
Speaker 1: you think if you had your young man's body now,
Speaker 1: with what you know, you would have been better? Yes? Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I do, Jeff, because I didn't I didn't know enough
Speaker 1: when I was and and I'm not faulting the instructors
Speaker 1: that I worked with, but there was no such thing
Speaker 1: as YouTube. There was no way to check their information.
Speaker 1: They were on the cover of golf magazine. So whatever
Speaker 1: they said, you know, you you thought was gospel. Uh.
Speaker 1: But if I knew now, or if I knew then
Speaker 1: what I know now, I would say, well, hold on
Speaker 1: a second, whoever did it that way? Uh? And and
Speaker 1: and the way I'm doing it is how Tom Watson
Speaker 1: did it, and how Jack Nicholas did it, uh, and
Speaker 1: how Bobby Jones did it, and how Ben Hogan did it. Um.
Speaker 1: And I would say, with all due respect, I think
Speaker 1: you're wrong. I didn't do that. I said, you know, you,
Speaker 1: you must know what you're talking about. Your cover your
Speaker 1: names everywhere. And so I listened to them. I was curious,
Speaker 1: and I enjoy golf instructors. I enjoyed sitting around and
Speaker 1: talking about philosophy. So I slowly adopted those those philosophies
Speaker 1: to the extent that I could no longer find my
Speaker 1: way back home again. You know, in college, I can
Speaker 1: remember one time being asked, you know, why are you
Speaker 1: so good? And I was, I was very good. Um,
Speaker 1: And I thought, well, gosh, I hit it high, and
Speaker 1: very few people can hit it past me. Uh, those
Speaker 1: that's a pretty good place to start. And and I
Speaker 1: couldn't sniff saying that. When I played the tour, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think the longest I ever was on tour was
Speaker 1: I think I cracked the top ten and driving distance
Speaker 1: one or top ten, top fifty and driving distance one year.
Speaker 1: But otherwise I was, you know, on the shorter end
Speaker 1: of the scale, you know, seventy five or something or
Speaker 1: a hundred and um so slowly but surely, my my
Speaker 1: horsepower left me. Um so yeah, I definitely do. I
Speaker 1: just didn't have enough confidence um and my swing thought
Speaker 1: there's a There was a very if I could say this, uh,
Speaker 1: not a particularly popular movie. It didn't get seen that often,
Speaker 1: but a friend of mine wrote it called Seven Days
Speaker 1: in Utopia. Dave Cook is a sports psychologist, golf psychologists,
Speaker 1: very religious guy. He wrote that book and it's based
Speaker 1: loosely in fact, because there was a character that that
Speaker 1: it was based around, a teacher from from Waco, Texas,
Speaker 1: sort of a different version of Harvey Pinnick. But anyway,
Speaker 1: that the genesis, you know, the gist of the book
Speaker 1: is that this broken down tour pro car breaks down
Speaker 1: in the small town and he goes to see this
Speaker 1: tour pro because you've got nothing to do. He's stuck
Speaker 1: in the town for a week, and the golf professional
Speaker 1: tells him, you know, he asked him, why do you
Speaker 1: grip the club? Do you what you do? And he said,
Speaker 1: I don't know, And the golf professional looks at him
Speaker 1: incredulously and says, well, how could you not know? An
Speaker 1: answer to that, he goes, your homework tonight is to
Speaker 1: go home, and I want you to write five pages
Speaker 1: on why you grip the club the way you do,
Speaker 1: and uh, it's like gracious. So you know the movie,
Speaker 1: you know, the scene goes back and he's up all
Speaker 1: night trying to figure it out and writes it, labors
Speaker 1: over it, gets it written. It comes out the next
Speaker 1: day and he's really excited to give it to this
Speaker 1: teacher and the teacher goes, well, I don't want it,
Speaker 1: and you throw that away and he was like, what
Speaker 1: are you talking about. I stayed up all night to
Speaker 1: write this, and he goes, it wasn't for me, it's
Speaker 1: for you because when you get on tour and somebody
Speaker 1: tries to tell you to change your grip, you will
Speaker 1: now know why you grip it that way and you'll
Speaker 1: be able to argue why you do and so um,
Speaker 1: you know, I think having the confidence in your own ability, uh,
Speaker 1: and knowing why you swing the way you do is
Speaker 1: is an invaluable to him because, Jeff, there are million
Speaker 1: different golf swings, as you well know, in the Hall
Speaker 1: of Fame across the line laid off, short, long, and
Speaker 1: everything in between. M and trying to swing to some ideal. Uh,
Speaker 1: it's certainly not ideal. I would say, Jeff, I want
Speaker 1: you to answer your own question, because I kind of
Speaker 1: feel like, having got to know you a lot this year,
Speaker 1: you might be better off if you could go back
Speaker 1: to being just young and dumb and unencumbered and have
Speaker 1: a free mind. Do you think that the game's become
Speaker 1: easier or harder for you irrespective of you know how
Speaker 1: your body has changed. Um Master is a bit similar
Speaker 1: to Brandon. Actually, I knew what I was doing when
Speaker 1: I was ten. I feel like um and gradually, but
Speaker 1: you gotta get a lesson from the guy your dad says.
Speaker 1: You know this causes he's a great teacher. He takees
Speaker 1: some good players into what he says, and you can't
Speaker 1: listen to what he says, and you do a little
Speaker 1: bit and then you go on. And I got into
Speaker 1: the system where I got the good coaching and stuff,
Speaker 1: and I it seemed to make sense. And they put
Speaker 1: your on camera next to Faldo or Norman or someone
Speaker 1: who did it good. Back in the day, the video
Speaker 1: camera was pretty prevalent, and I it just there was
Speaker 1: somewhere deep inside always that I'm like, you know what
Speaker 1: I'm not sure about this, but I'll do it because
Speaker 1: these guys are supposed to know more than me, you know,
Speaker 1: so I guess it's really um. Like branded just said,
Speaker 1: you have to sort of trust and believe in what
Speaker 1: you do. It's very difficult when you're a fifteen sixty
Speaker 1: year old kid and you're being tilt by these grown
Speaker 1: ups who are on magazine covers and they've taught tournament
Speaker 1: winners and stuff like, well, he must know more than me.
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe it'll feel better down the road, you know.
Speaker 1: I'll do it now because it's there's this idea that
Speaker 1: you're not there yet, but if you do all these things,
Speaker 1: and there's this ideal that you're always chasing this ideal.
Speaker 1: And it took me a really long time to realize
Speaker 1: there is no ideal, you just them in. The secret
Speaker 1: to golf is hitting it well. Now this shot that's
Speaker 1: in front of you, and then go to the next
Speaker 1: one and hit that shot really well. And the guy
Speaker 1: who adapts the best is the best golfer, you know,
Speaker 1: the guy who can get up to the shop just
Speaker 1: hit the best shot and then walk up and work
Speaker 1: out how that shot and hit that shot. This idea
Speaker 1: that gets planted in at least it got planted in
Speaker 1: my head. Um. And I think the eighties nineties at
Speaker 1: video camera generation, that there was this ideal that you're
Speaker 1: chasing and once you swing it like this, you're going
Speaker 1: to be a good player, Um, and the ball will
Speaker 1: go where you want. Is a flawed philosophy. I think
Speaker 1: the best golfer is the best self teacher, and he
Speaker 1: knows how to hit the shot that's in front of
Speaker 1: him the best, you know, because every shot is different, Um,
Speaker 1: every lie is different, every day is different. Your body
Speaker 1: feels different every day. I mean, look every what are
Speaker 1: the sciences to say, every six or seven years you're
Speaker 1: a completely new person, all yourselves are gone and you're
Speaker 1: you're rebuilt with something. I mean, you're completely new. You're more,
Speaker 1: you're more of a pattern than you are a thing
Speaker 1: as a human, you know. So just work out how
Speaker 1: to manage that pattern the best and just hit the
Speaker 1: best shot you can when you get to the ball.
Speaker 1: If I and that's funnily enough, what I did when
Speaker 1: I was a kid, Like I didn't practice swing the
Speaker 1: night before I went to go and play a game
Speaker 1: with dad when I was twelve. About this is how
Speaker 1: I'm going to swing in the next day. I was
Speaker 1: just excited about the first T shirt off the first
Speaker 1: and I hit that and I'll look where that went.
Speaker 1: I'm going to go get that, you know. So I
Speaker 1: guess the long way around the the long way around
Speaker 1: to get to the thing is. I wish I had
Speaker 1: exactly like Brandon said, sort of had the strength of
Speaker 1: mind or character to say, you know what, I know
Speaker 1: what I'm doing. I'm just going to play golf the
Speaker 1: way I want to play golf. And I'm not saying
Speaker 1: you're wrong, but this is me and I'm going to
Speaker 1: do it like this. That being said, I think the
Speaker 1: suffering that you deal with when you played two or
Speaker 1: golf and you work on stuff that's certainly not correct
Speaker 1: for you, but you bang your head against the wall
Speaker 1: so hard because we're all told you have to work
Speaker 1: really hard and you have to do this and if
Speaker 1: you don't grind, you're not gonna be any good. And
Speaker 1: I think every tour player has done that and created
Speaker 1: suffering for themselves. It's just an absolute mass in your
Speaker 1: mind and it just creates all their stress and anxiety.
Speaker 1: Um the pot of gold is at the end of
Speaker 1: that rainbow. And that's really what Hogan and Travino did,
Speaker 1: is they just bang their head against the wall longer
Speaker 1: than everyone else until they until they got there. You know, um,
Speaker 1: I'm glad I've sort of done that. I feel like
Speaker 1: I have a pretty good idea of how I play
Speaker 1: golf now. I still certainly can't do it every day,
Speaker 1: but I've got a pretty good idea of the sort
Speaker 1: of the way I should go about it. I just
Speaker 1: wish my body worked like it did when I was
Speaker 1: twenty again. But I'm not too old, and I still
Speaker 1: love playing golf and I still love discovering every day.
Speaker 1: And every day I think I've worked it out. The
Speaker 1: next day it shows me that I haven't, and then
Speaker 1: I have to go a week or two before I
Speaker 1: sort of get the little I've worked it out again,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And then golf shows me
Speaker 1: that I haven't. But that's the fun, I mean, that's
Speaker 1: the game. I think. If there's anything that I, as
Speaker 1: I said, I wish, I wish I hadn't believe there
Speaker 1: was this ideal that I was going to get to.
Speaker 1: I wish I realized that it was just, you know what,
Speaker 1: work out how to play well, every single day today,
Speaker 1: work out how to play well today, worry tomorrow tomorrow,
Speaker 1: but today is did imply well today. So um, I
Speaker 1: think it's a fascinating subject. I mean I could think
Speaker 1: and talk about the golf swing and playing golf and
Speaker 1: getting better at golf and having good scores forever, you know,
Speaker 1: because I think it's you can't work it out. You know,
Speaker 1: somewhere insiartists knows the answer. But the more you try
Speaker 1: to tell at the end to the further away you
Speaker 1: get from the answer. I think that's the finest part
Speaker 1: of the game. Yeah, Jeff, was there was there, you know,
Speaker 1: For me, there was you know, I think UM one shot,
Speaker 1: at least when I was younger, that I that I
Speaker 1: always tried to hit that just in I think intuitively
Speaker 1: made me a better player. Um. I would go to
Speaker 1: the range and I would try to hit you know,
Speaker 1: a couple of hundred one irons, and I would try
Speaker 1: to hit him as high and as hard as I could. Uh.
Speaker 1: And it was that move really that made me, I think,
Speaker 1: made me a better player, made me a much much
Speaker 1: better player. And and then slowly I got coached out
Speaker 1: of all those moves as I began to listen to instruction. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, after I got really really good. So it
Speaker 1: was kind of I remember reading. Um, maybe it was
Speaker 1: a Fred Couples, maybe it was a Jack Nicholas. It
Speaker 1: was you know, Fred would talk about trying to get
Speaker 1: his hands as fast as he could on his left shoulder,
Speaker 1: and Jack would talk about, you know, trying to get
Speaker 1: his hands to go down the target line. Um. But
Speaker 1: anyway I would, I would, I would try to do that.
Speaker 1: And if you think about what you have to do
Speaker 1: to hit a one iron high and long, Um, you
Speaker 1: know you're you're releasing it fully right. You're not a
Speaker 1: lot of forward shaff lee. Uh, you're swinging up, you're
Speaker 1: hitting it high. You're not thinking about technique. Uh. And
Speaker 1: that one thought, you know, helped me in such good stead.
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you had like an epiphany, one moment
Speaker 1: when you were younger that allows you to have a
Speaker 1: breakthrough in the game. Um, I don't know. I mean
Speaker 1: I started really young. I mean I was chipping ping
Speaker 1: pong balls around the house when I was six or seven. Um.
Speaker 1: But um, it's funny. I always gravitated as a kid,
Speaker 1: as a really young kid to the hardest shot possible,
Speaker 1: and like I did, like i'd have some doubt had
Speaker 1: a set of remember the Nicholas mill Fields, the Blaze
Speaker 1: and like back in those days you'd get the one
Speaker 1: to three four all the way down and he never
Speaker 1: used the one on. He had the pink one on,
Speaker 1: I think, which everyone wanted. But I would take that
Speaker 1: one on and just go to the range and want
Speaker 1: to hit that. I just and there was an impossible
Speaker 1: club to hit, but I just loved hitting the hardest
Speaker 1: shot possible. Um. I'd go into bankers and the banker
Speaker 1: shots with seven irons because I thought that was harder
Speaker 1: than it was with a sandwige. Um. Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: know if I had any actual specific moment of clarity.
Speaker 1: I used to I used to like mimicking whoever was
Speaker 1: playing really well at the time. I'd go out and
Speaker 1: try to feel like I swung like that, UM, and
Speaker 1: that I think was really good because it was it's
Speaker 1: field based, not it wasn't position based. I tried just
Speaker 1: tried to look like Steve Elkington or looked like Greg
Speaker 1: Norman or you know, I feel like what it feels
Speaker 1: like to be Greg Norman. And I think it taught
Speaker 1: me a lot about sort of you're fine, you sort
Speaker 1: of edges, you know, like talk from the science point
Speaker 1: of view. Bryson always talks about end range. But I
Speaker 1: think when you you have a Lie Travino week, and
Speaker 1: then you have a Nick Foulo a week, and then
Speaker 1: you have a Tom Watson week, you're sort of discovering
Speaker 1: all the different things you can do with your golf swing.
Speaker 1: And I left my left heel for a week like Watson,
Speaker 1: and then you keep it on the ground like Fowlo
Speaker 1: for a week, and I just think I've found the boundaries,
Speaker 1: if that makes sense, and all the things that I
Speaker 1: couldn't couldn't do, and the end product was my golf swing,
Speaker 1: which was just a mismatter, like a sort of a
Speaker 1: cocktail of everything I've ever tried to do, you know.
Speaker 1: But I definitely, as a kid, gravitated to the harder
Speaker 1: shot possible, which I think is really an interesting headspace
Speaker 1: because the older you get, you kind of go the
Speaker 1: other way. You try to go to you trying to
Speaker 1: practice the stuff you can do, and you could have
Speaker 1: go away from the stuff you can't do. Absolutely if
Speaker 1: I could find out what went wrong, like my head's
Speaker 1: but my head and I think you're seeing other kids
Speaker 1: and I was eating my kids. Um, we've we've got
Speaker 1: the mental side of golf worked out. When we're like ten,
Speaker 1: Like every bit of new information that we get, we
Speaker 1: get further away from that pure, sort of perfect sort
Speaker 1: of golfer. You know. It's like we think we're doing
Speaker 1: full pro shot routines and visualization all this. You just
Speaker 1: instinctively naturally do that as a kid, you know, And
Speaker 1: it's so much fun, and you don't worry about the
Speaker 1: shot you just said before. You just get excited about
Speaker 1: the next one you want to hit. You know, if
Speaker 1: I could do anything, I'd try to put my twelve
Speaker 1: year old brain onto this wise old person. I guess
Speaker 1: I don't know. So it's but does it come? Can
Speaker 1: you get the Can you gain all that experience and
Speaker 1: get all the scars and ever get back there? You know?
Speaker 1: It's interesting, I mean, the whole idea of like having
Speaker 1: your own swinging. A few years ago and Dustin Johnson
Speaker 1: was clearly like the best golfer in the world. I
Speaker 1: asked him, like, if you couldn't touch a golf club
Speaker 1: for one year, how long would take you to get
Speaker 1: back to where you are right now. And he said, well,
Speaker 1: could I work out and the train and yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you can keep in good sheep whatever. He's like the
Speaker 1: maybe two And you know, Dustin's unique, but you know
Speaker 1: for him, he's like it's it's in him, it's who
Speaker 1: he is. He hasn't really changed his swing that much.
Speaker 1: And I always thought that was a fascinating answer. Um,
Speaker 1: I mean what about you guys if you didn't touch
Speaker 1: a club for a year, but you know you could,
Speaker 1: you could stay in fighting shape, Like is your swing
Speaker 1: now so hardwired into into your your nervous system that
Speaker 1: you could just find it right away? It would it
Speaker 1: be a long process of rediscovery. Oh for me, I
Speaker 1: mean I'd hit it. I would hit the ball okay, Um,
Speaker 1: it wouldn't take long too to look really good to
Speaker 1: you guys, but it would the last five percent would
Speaker 1: take a while. You know. Um, it's quite hard wired.
Speaker 1: But like I mean, day, I believe it about Daija
Speaker 1: because I mean, DJ there's two sorts of golficer there's
Speaker 1: guys who try to hit it a certain way and
Speaker 1: there's guys who trying to swing in a certain way.
Speaker 1: And Dji it's just a guy who tries to hit
Speaker 1: it a certain way. And I think the guys who
Speaker 1: try to hit it a certain way, he's thinking about
Speaker 1: the shot he's hitting, not about the swing he's making.
Speaker 1: So I think would come back comes back quicker for
Speaker 1: Gala that especially, Sin's a great athlete. Um, But there's
Speaker 1: other guys who, like Brauston is trying to swing in
Speaker 1: a certain way because he knows that's going to get
Speaker 1: there was already once and I think that guy needs
Speaker 1: to put the whole thing back together, you know, before
Speaker 1: he hits the shots. Um, I don't know, I'd be
Speaker 1: back reasonably quick. But the shop this would it would
Speaker 1: take a long time to like shopping the pencil. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, look all that, all that work you've done
Speaker 1: your whole life. It counts, you know. I don't know
Speaker 1: if you've ever read a book by His name was
Speaker 1: Daniel Coyle. He wrote The Talent Code. You ever read
Speaker 1: that book? Anybody ever goes with it? Yeah, that's fascinating book.
Speaker 1: And it just talks about the milin nation that goes
Speaker 1: on when you're learning something in it. Um, you know
Speaker 1: that counts, right, So you know, Hogan had famously had
Speaker 1: that accident in February of and you know, almost exactly
Speaker 1: a year later, he tied at the l A Open,
Speaker 1: and he would have had five days to pract us
Speaker 1: before going to that l A Open. And he played
Speaker 1: no more than a handful of times the rest of
Speaker 1: his career, even through you know, the bulk of what
Speaker 1: was left of you know, you could call his his
Speaker 1: um flush career through three he was only playing a
Speaker 1: handful of times, and he he still had the forum. Um.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean all that work you've done in
Speaker 1: the past accounts that last five percent, as Jeff said,
Speaker 1: is you know, being able to flight shots, hitting them
Speaker 1: through trajectories, carrying him the right distance. You'd have to
Speaker 1: go out there and play very conservative golf because you
Speaker 1: would you would be able to even if you've been
Speaker 1: working out, you wouldn't be able to clear as fast,
Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to stretch as much. You wouldn't be
Speaker 1: able to swim, get your hands as high, or there
Speaker 1: would be loads of things you wouldn't be sharp at.
Speaker 1: You know, you just wouldn't be as good around the greens,
Speaker 1: your touch wouldn't be as good. And that's that last
Speaker 1: five percent that Jeff's talking about. But yeah, I would
Speaker 1: be okay, I've actually gone a year and not touched
Speaker 1: a golf club. In the last years I've I I
Speaker 1: went somewhere in there, I would have gone to three
Speaker 1: years and hardly touched a golf club. So, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: I remember I hadn't played no tournament golf for fifteen years,
Speaker 1: and and my wife and and only like three or
Speaker 1: four rounds a year. And my wife was after me
Speaker 1: because the Senior Open was at St. Andrews, and she
Speaker 1: was like, you know, don't you think that'd be cool
Speaker 1: to play one senior event. I was like yeah, and
Speaker 1: you know, the Open was at Carnousti and and so
Speaker 1: I said, okay, I'll enter it. And then and then
Speaker 1: like two months went by and I hadn't touched the
Speaker 1: club and picked up a club. And one day I
Speaker 1: went in to brush my teeth and there was a
Speaker 1: note on the on the on the mirror that said
Speaker 1: it's fifty three days until the Senior Open qualified and
Speaker 1: you haven't touched a club, and uh and uh I
Speaker 1: started laughing. I went out there and she was like, listen,
Speaker 1: if you don't want to play, don't play. But if
Speaker 1: you're going to try to qualify, you should at least
Speaker 1: give it an for it, because look, I mean, golf
Speaker 1: is so far down on my priority list now, it's
Speaker 1: We've got a million other things. I love golf, I
Speaker 1: absolutely love it, but it's just it's it's ten or
Speaker 1: twelve on my priority list. So I just always had
Speaker 1: other things to do. So I was like, all right,
Speaker 1: I'll go practice. And then you know, after a month,
Speaker 1: my body hurt, like hell um, I get up every
Speaker 1: morning be like, holy how did I do this? You know,
Speaker 1: you know, and I calluses and and I was thinking
Speaker 1: about golf again. And you know, it's like I'm come
Speaker 1: home pissed if I didn't play well or hit it well.
Speaker 1: And um, but it was you know, look it was.
Speaker 1: It was a fun few months. But it took it
Speaker 1: took a lot to get that last five percent that
Speaker 1: Jeff is talking about. I'm not sure I actually got it,
Speaker 1: but I did well enough to qualify and uh, and
Speaker 1: that was fun. I'm grateful for having, you know, given
Speaker 1: it sort of one last shot. So to speak to
Speaker 1: your to your point, I remember, surely after Jack turned
Speaker 1: necklastern fifty. Uh, but you know, he didn't want to
Speaker 1: keep beating up on those guys they had been beating
Speaker 1: up on all his life. Um, thank you Brando for
Speaker 1: remember and uh uh he was going bad himself, like
Speaker 1: for a three weeks stretch, let's say. And I said
Speaker 1: to Jack, if if Jack Grout had died, you know,
Speaker 1: a year or two earlier, And I said, what if
Speaker 1: Grout could watch you today? How long do you think
Speaker 1: it would? And I remember this like it was yesterday.
Speaker 1: It was at Darrell. I said, if Gret we're live today,
Speaker 1: what you know, you guys could be on the range together,
Speaker 1: how long do you think would take him to get
Speaker 1: to get you straight? And Inclist went like this, I'd
Speaker 1: be bit I keep fixed me like and he went
Speaker 1: like that like that, and it was neat. It was
Speaker 1: a neat moment. And then and when when Jeff was
Speaker 1: talking about running from this, you know in this instructor
Speaker 1: and the age of the video and all the rest,
Speaker 1: and Brandon, this is a long set up for something.
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear you weigh in on. I would
Speaker 1: thought I would have thought now Tiger was a prodigy.
Speaker 1: He had a beautiful swing even before he went't so Butch,
Speaker 1: but he improved a lot under Butch. And now Butcher
Speaker 1: with without out knowing anything, Jeff about who you would
Speaker 1: have seen at that age or brandom you for that
Speaker 1: matter as well. When he went to see Butcher, Butcher
Speaker 1: had worked with Sloom and he won a major, David's
Speaker 1: love and won a major, worked with of course Greg Norman,
Speaker 1: who was the number one player in the world at
Speaker 1: the time that Tiger went to see him. So to
Speaker 1: Jeff's point, earlier, Tiger wasn't running around, and Earl wasn't
Speaker 1: gonna let him run around. He was like, this is
Speaker 1: your guy. This guy works with Norman and now and
Speaker 1: now he's working with you, and of course normally got
Speaker 1: pushed out or left. So I don't think Tiger ever
Speaker 1: had that question of flavor of the month or let's
Speaker 1: look at this video. And so I think that's one
Speaker 1: of the reasons why we talked about the Tiger Butch
Speaker 1: era is such a magical period for golf, in such
Speaker 1: a marriage period for swinging the club beautifully, and Brando,
Speaker 1: you and I talked about Tiger two thousand on the
Speaker 1: practice at at Pebble Beach. But I wonder Brandon, if
Speaker 1: you could offer your your thoughts on that about the
Speaker 1: the out commedia with the chemistry is probably between Butcher
Speaker 1: and Butch and Tiger. I would say Tiger got very
Speaker 1: lucky there, um, in the same way that Jack Nicholas
Speaker 1: got very lucky. Um. You know when he went out
Speaker 1: to that range in nifty at si Oto. Uh, they're
Speaker 1: on that range. To help him was Jack Grout. Now,
Speaker 1: Jack Grout, as I'm sure all of you well known,
Speaker 1: you know, UM, you know, his his tutelage in the
Speaker 1: game derives from Alex Morrison. Um. And and there's a
Speaker 1: direct link between the golf that Alex Morrison taught and
Speaker 1: Henry Picard played, and Ben Hogan played, um and to
Speaker 1: some extent, Bobby Jones. And so you know, Jack Grout
Speaker 1: was taught by Alex Morrison, who taught rolling the heels,
Speaker 1: who taught lifting the left heel on the back swing,
Speaker 1: who taught turning the head to the right in the
Speaker 1: backswing and keeping your head to the right in the
Speaker 1: back swing, which allows that great separation so in try position.
Speaker 1: And so Jack Grout, there's Jack Grout who had the
Speaker 1: best of both worlds. He was I would say lucky
Speaker 1: in his instruction and also came at it from a
Speaker 1: plane background. So there, Jack Nicholas is a good athlete,
Speaker 1: and thankfully he ran into Jack Grout, who knew exactly
Speaker 1: what Jack Nicholas needed, uh to get headed in the
Speaker 1: right direction. Tiger similarly at least in Butch. Butch had
Speaker 1: a plane background and also sort of a highly technical
Speaker 1: background and being taught by his father. If you know,
Speaker 1: I'll give Butch a huge compliment, uh, and that none
Speaker 1: of his players look alike, none of them. You know, Um,
Speaker 1: they don't all swing flat, they don't all swing up right.
Speaker 1: They don't swing down the line that swing across the
Speaker 1: line laid off. They have flat. They have strong grips
Speaker 1: and weak grips. You know, he worked with Freddie Couples,
Speaker 1: and he worked with Jose Marian. All the thought, well,
Speaker 1: you can't get a weaker weaker grip than Jose. You can't.
Speaker 1: Are they get a stronger grip than than Freddie. You
Speaker 1: can't get a flatter swing than is a. You can't
Speaker 1: probably get a more upright swing than Freddie Couples. And
Speaker 1: he's worked with everything in between, so you know, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, let's imagine if if Tiger's father and I
Speaker 1: give Tiger's father a lot of credit because he knew
Speaker 1: the game but what if he would have And I'm
Speaker 1: not going to throw anybody under the bus here, but
Speaker 1: I think all of us can imagine him working with
Speaker 1: two or three or four other teachers who would have
Speaker 1: tried to impose upon Tiger a method some methodology, and
Speaker 1: who knows if it would have stripped out of Tiger
Speaker 1: the genius that that existed. Um. So you know, I
Speaker 1: think you know Butch's you know, Butch is. He has
Speaker 1: told me that before he lets somebody come work under him,
Speaker 1: he makes them read like a prerequisite to working with
Speaker 1: Butch as you know, learning from Butch, as them reading
Speaker 1: John Jacobs book on golf swing to get just a
Speaker 1: basic underlying philosophy about how to grip and how to
Speaker 1: stand and all those things. And so I think Butch
Speaker 1: really does is really rooted in the in the fundamentals
Speaker 1: that he doesn't get tangled up and swinging a certain way. Uh.
Speaker 1: And so you know that's where golf is very fortunate
Speaker 1: that Tiger and Butch um or that Tiger met Butch
Speaker 1: and didn't meet somebody else who might have imposed some
Speaker 1: some theory on him and uh and robbed him of
Speaker 1: his genius. It's interesting thought exercise what if they were
Speaker 1: teaching at the naval course in Cyprus, California? The stack
Speaker 1: and tilt? Have we even ever heard of tiger woods? Like? Um?
Speaker 1: I mean it is that that that the happenstances, as
Speaker 1: you say, and what what what led certain players to
Speaker 1: certain places? Because you were you were talking about Bryce
Speaker 1: and when my first job, when I was sixteen, I
Speaker 1: was a cartboy at Quail Lodds, this little course in
Speaker 1: Carmel Valley, and Ben Doyle was teaching there. And I
Speaker 1: had no real golf education and Ben Doyle had this
Speaker 1: this golf cart with all these contraptions, and he had
Speaker 1: kids out there. They were hitting beach balls with rakes
Speaker 1: all summer long, and I thought it was the weirdest
Speaker 1: ship I've ever seen. And it was so over my head.
Speaker 1: And of course, you know Bobby clamp It became the
Speaker 1: ultimate um Ben Doyle disciple and and and never never
Speaker 1: really achieved what people thought he was going to and um.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's like who you wind up with and
Speaker 1: and how it all it all happens is a fascinating subject.
Speaker 1: And it's sort of unique to golf, right because no
Speaker 1: one really talks about like who Lebron James Is high
Speaker 1: school coach was, you know, and in other sports, like
Speaker 1: you're this incredible physical talent and you just find a way,
Speaker 1: and there's there's people who help you or don't, but
Speaker 1: it seems like they're all the cream always rises another sports,
Speaker 1: but golf is is very unique in that way, like
Speaker 1: the people you meet on your journey seemed to have
Speaker 1: an outsized effect on on the athlete. Yeah, we're all
Speaker 1: so obsessed with the golf swing, you know, the mystery
Speaker 1: of it, the science of it, which again I mean,
Speaker 1: which is why the book The Golf Machine, I think
Speaker 1: is intrigued people. You know, I think that book was
Speaker 1: written in the late sixties because it at least promised,
Speaker 1: or at least promises um the reader, that you're gonna
Speaker 1: be able to understand the golf swing after you read
Speaker 1: this book. Now, I've read that book half a dozen
Speaker 1: times at least in my life. I've taken notes on it,
Speaker 1: I've broken it down, I've I've spent a lot of
Speaker 1: time trying to understand that book. And I and I
Speaker 1: still don't understand so so so so uh and I
Speaker 1: and I look, I I've been to a few teaching
Speaker 1: some seminars where huge proponents of that book stand up
Speaker 1: and and take issue with me on that book. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, look, the reason I find so much fault
Speaker 1: in that book, Uh, not to get too much into
Speaker 1: the weeds here, but because it gets the simplest thing wrong.
Speaker 1: So how can I how can I believe a book
Speaker 1: as complicated as that book when it gets the simplest
Speaker 1: thing wrong, which I believe it's very early on in
Speaker 1: that book, like Age twelve, it talks about how the
Speaker 1: head cannot move, that the golf swing must swing around
Speaker 1: a fixed point, and likens the golf swing to a
Speaker 1: machine in that regard. And you know, again this is
Speaker 1: where if you had YouTube when I was, you know,
Speaker 1: standing on the range and you know, teachers were telling
Speaker 1: me to keep my head still, I would have taken
Speaker 1: them through the top fifty p G eight Tour winners
Speaker 1: of all time and the top fifty LPGA winners of
Speaker 1: all time, and I would have pulled up all fifty
Speaker 1: of their swings and said, not one of these players
Speaker 1: keeps their head still, not one, not one, not even close.
Speaker 1: Like they all move it huge off the ball and
Speaker 1: up the ball, up off the ball, or off the
Speaker 1: ball and down. But they all move it in a
Speaker 1: big way, every single one of them. So why are
Speaker 1: you teaching that. Um, It's just it's just it's just
Speaker 1: not based in fact um and and and so that's
Speaker 1: you know, that's you know, without getting too much in
Speaker 1: the weeds, that's you know. And it's interesting that you
Speaker 1: talked about that, Alan, because I had and again I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna name names and throw this fella under the bus,
Speaker 1: but I had a very good junior player on my
Speaker 1: high school team. Uh. He has a lot to do
Speaker 1: with me even getting an integral He was a tremendous player.
Speaker 1: And his father said to him, and his father hardly
Speaker 1: had any money, but he scraped on enough money. He
Speaker 1: said to his son, I can I will leave it
Speaker 1: up to you. I'll send you to see Bob Toski
Speaker 1: or Ben Doyle. I'll spend all the money and you
Speaker 1: can go for an entire summer and work with either
Speaker 1: one of these. And and this this young kid, uh said,
Speaker 1: I'll go to Ben Doyle. And he was the number
Speaker 1: one player on our team. And he was borderline the
Speaker 1: number one player in the nation, uh, junior player. And
Speaker 1: he came back from there and and just you know,
Speaker 1: he just was never the player that he was before
Speaker 1: he left. And so you know, again I'm I'm not
Speaker 1: throwing Ben Doyle into the bus. He was trying to
Speaker 1: help students. He was trying to understand the golf swing. Um,
Speaker 1: but there's a danger in trying to impose a methodology
Speaker 1: on every single player that comes through your door. Generally speaking,
Speaker 1: teachers learned from athletes. Um, they learned from them. It's
Speaker 1: not the other way around, you know, Um, you know
Speaker 1: they they teachers generally don't innovate with an idea. It's
Speaker 1: when the movement is discovered. Like if we're looking at
Speaker 1: you know, Kyle Berkshire with his movement. Okay, so he
Speaker 1: wasn't taught that. He came to that empirically, nobody would
Speaker 1: teach what he does that that step step, step up,
Speaker 1: the goes right. Um. And so Bryson learned it from Kyle,
Speaker 1: and Boom transformed himself from never having the top ten
Speaker 1: in a major championship to finishing fourth and then winning
Speaker 1: the US Open, uh where Jeff Ogilvy won it at
Speaker 1: wingfoot And so you know, did he did did did
Speaker 1: Bryson learned that from a teacher or did he learn
Speaker 1: that from an athlete? So it's usually the genius that innovates,
Speaker 1: and then teachers try to understand it and then help
Speaker 1: others understand it and teaching. Uh. And there's a lot
Speaker 1: of great teaching out there, a lot uh. And I
Speaker 1: really have enjoyed teaching in the last five or six
Speaker 1: years listening to teachers, because I think instruction has gotten
Speaker 1: miles better. I think to be a really good teacher
Speaker 1: requires so much wisdom and and what comes to mind
Speaker 1: is something about and brand. Help me with the name
Speaker 1: if you remember. But the fourtune year old kid from
Speaker 1: China where he was fourteen at the time who made
Speaker 1: the cut of the Masters, want and long, thank you
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, had an awkward swing, but at
Speaker 1: fourteen it was good enough to make a cut in
Speaker 1: the Masters. And uh. So I said to Billy Harmon,
Speaker 1: you know, the next week ago, what would you do
Speaker 1: with this kid and build a harmor for those who
Speaker 1: don't know, is which's kid brother and the son of
Speaker 1: clude Hartman and uh And Billy said nothing. And I said, really,
Speaker 1: he's got a weird looking swing. I mean, I was
Speaker 1: aiding mon I was and Billy said, yeah, he's fourteen.
Speaker 1: He just made the cutting the masters. You know, let
Speaker 1: him figure it out. But I mean another guy would
Speaker 1: be like, oh, we need to see this, this and this.
Speaker 1: Like to to to Jeff's point, I'm gonna go a
Speaker 1: quick one and then a longer one. Have at Percy
Speaker 1: Boomers on learning golf? How would you? How would where
Speaker 1: would that be in your on your list? If anywhere?
Speaker 1: I have it, it's somewhere back here. I love that.
Speaker 1: I love it. You know, the turn in the barrel philosophy. Again,
Speaker 1: it's one of those philosophies that, uh it's it's beautiful,
Speaker 1: it's wonderful, but it's just doesn't work and it's not true.
Speaker 1: Uh you know, uh you know, uh, nobody turns into
Speaker 1: barrel and plays this game great. Everybody moves off of
Speaker 1: a golf ball. But but I love the book. I'll
Speaker 1: tell you a quick story about that. I was. I
Speaker 1: was once working and yeah, I don't want to throw
Speaker 1: the instructors under bus, but I was working with David
Speaker 1: leed Better. I'm not doing David led Better under the bus.
Speaker 1: When you're from Texas and you're a golf person, you
Speaker 1: gotta be really careful with that work bus in general
Speaker 1: compare point um. So i'm i'm i'm I'm working with
Speaker 1: David Leadbetter and UH. And one of David lead betters
Speaker 1: acolytes comes out and he says, you're not gonna believe this,
Speaker 1: and this will tell how long ago it was this
Speaker 1: facts that we just got from this very well known teacher.
Speaker 1: And David goes, oh, this is will be interesting, and
Speaker 1: he said, Brando, you gotta come in and read this
Speaker 1: facts with me. These are always entertaining. So going there
Speaker 1: and the facts reads something along the lines of, how
Speaker 1: dare you use the word transition without giving me credit?
Speaker 1: I coined the phrase of the club that space where
Speaker 1: the club's going into the backswing before you know, as
Speaker 1: it as it transitions from back swing to down swing.
Speaker 1: I coined that as the transition, and and you should
Speaker 1: give me credit every time you use it. And so
Speaker 1: David went over to Percy Boomer's book. UH pulled out
Speaker 1: and David Knew found the spot where Percy Boomer used
Speaker 1: the word trail position. UH. Put it face down on
Speaker 1: the facts. Close the facts set the facts that a letter.
Speaker 1: Percy Boomer coined the word and I'm sure somebody used
Speaker 1: it before Percy boomer, So every time you use it,
Speaker 1: you should give them that. And I left there and
Speaker 1: I thought, wow, that is how petty, uh instruction can be.
Speaker 1: I mean these were the other Fellow was a monster
Speaker 1: in the you know, monolith in the in the teaching industry. Um.
Speaker 1: But but anyway, that's a beautiful book. Uh. You know,
Speaker 1: I love it and I don't fault them. It's just like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's a wonderful theory. It's it's also it's
Speaker 1: another one of those theories like resist with your lower
Speaker 1: body so that you can build up tension and hit
Speaker 1: it farther and those those are wonderful theories. They're like
Speaker 1: I likened it to the geocentric model of the universe.
Speaker 1: It's a wonderful theory. It sounds great. Um, it's beautiful.
Speaker 1: It's just wrong. Uh. That's that's all there is to it. Branda.
Speaker 1: Where were you situate when Jeff won the US Opening
Speaker 1: two thousand and six on the wing foot course. Let's
Speaker 1: see where were we? I was? I was? You know that.
Speaker 1: The thing is is that I have to really work
Speaker 1: hard to watch the end of golf tournaments, if you
Speaker 1: can believe that, because normally we're setting somewhere where we
Speaker 1: can take it all in right, and then we have
Speaker 1: to get from there to our set, you know, within
Speaker 1: thirty minutes before we go on air. If we're coming
Speaker 1: on the air at six o'clock at five thirty, we
Speaker 1: gotta get there. And so in that last thirty minutes
Speaker 1: a lot of crazy stuff happens. Typically, but typically you
Speaker 1: get up there and they're like, oh, yeah, so and
Speaker 1: so made the putt and so and so I didn't
Speaker 1: make the putt, and then you get my notes set
Speaker 1: and then I get locked in. Well, in the last
Speaker 1: hour of that tournament, all hell breaks loose. You know,
Speaker 1: Jeff chips in from par at seventeen, gets the up
Speaker 1: and down at eighteen, and then everybody collapses. You know,
Speaker 1: I'll call him Montgomery and Burrick and Phil and uh
Speaker 1: and so you know, I remember getting up to the
Speaker 1: set uh and and I'm like what who he did what?
Speaker 1: And you know, and at that point, the US Open
Speaker 1: didn't have shot link um and so you know, trying
Speaker 1: to catch up and get ready to come on the air,
Speaker 1: and then you think, well, Phil is gonna win anyway,
Speaker 1: and then he gets there and then not all unfold.
Speaker 1: So you know, I was on the set trying to
Speaker 1: wrap my arms around it. Like the rest of the world.
Speaker 1: Phil was about to win three majors in a row,
Speaker 1: you know he had, right, he had just one? What
Speaker 1: did he won? He won? Uh so that's two thousand six.
Speaker 1: So had Phil won the two thousand five p g A,
Speaker 1: he won the two thousand six Masters. This was going
Speaker 1: to be his third major in a row, which, by
Speaker 1: the way, cracks me up because as soon as he loses,
Speaker 1: he switched his teachers because you know, he couldn't find
Speaker 1: the fairway or whatever. But meanwhile, damn near won three
Speaker 1: majors in a row and the and then Tiger goes
Speaker 1: on an epic run, you know, starting at hoy Lake.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's incredible how the whole thing flipped. If
Speaker 1: if Phil wins that the open at Wingfoot, he's three
Speaker 1: corters away to the Tigers lam, he goes to number
Speaker 1: one for the first time ever. He's gonna be a a
Speaker 1: Player of the Year for the first time, Like you
Speaker 1: could for the first time, you could say with a
Speaker 1: straight face that he's an equal to Tiger Woods. And
Speaker 1: and then one hole everything changed, and and Tigers around
Speaker 1: the afterburners, right, I mean, that was. You know, it
Speaker 1: was obviously a monumental moment for Jeff, but it was
Speaker 1: one of the more bizarre endings to a golf tournament.
Speaker 1: Great commentary by Johnny Miller. You know, I think his
Speaker 1: comments were, you know, he doesn't have to ride the
Speaker 1: white horse, something along those lines. You know, he doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be the hero here. Uh And and of course,
Speaker 1: you know everybody watching sports loves to be, you know,
Speaker 1: second guest, the athlete. Um. I've heard Phil give his
Speaker 1: take on that, something about he would have hit a four,
Speaker 1: would but he thought he was going to leave it
Speaker 1: too long a shot, and you know, he worked this
Speaker 1: whole way through it. But amazing thing to me is,
Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, he had hit two fairways that
Speaker 1: day standing on the teh and he had the dad
Speaker 1: gum lead in the US open Um. You know. Uh,
Speaker 1: So that was you know, that was quite the accomplishment
Speaker 1: from Phil, just to get it around that golf course
Speaker 1: from from the right. It was a bit like Sevy
Speaker 1: later in his career when he couldn't find a fairway,
Speaker 1: but just through guile and guts, uh managed to hang
Speaker 1: in there. Jeff, you've you've never talked about this with Phil.
Speaker 1: Have you like you've never wrapped out about that whole thing?
Speaker 1: Not really, it's a hot I mean, um, he was
Speaker 1: pretty good about it on the last on the gray
Speaker 1: on the presentation, and like he turned up the presentation,
Speaker 1: and I don't think Monty did. Um. Um, he was
Speaker 1: pretty good about it. He looked white, like he was
Speaker 1: pretty in shock. Um. And I actually at the time,
Speaker 1: well very soon after that, for about the next sort
Speaker 1: of two or three years, I leaving right next door
Speaker 1: to Bones, So we talked about it a few times. Um. Look,
Speaker 1: I didn't we didn't bring it up. We had a
Speaker 1: couple of little lighthearted cracks about it, me and Phil.
Speaker 1: I think I never wanted to bring up is pretty sensitive.
Speaker 1: I mean, um, like Brandle said, it was, nobody else
Speaker 1: could have been leading the US Open on the last
Speaker 1: hole hitting it the way he was hitting it. There's
Speaker 1: just no way, not around there, maybe not around anywhere.
Speaker 1: But um, it was just when you're sort of afterwards,
Speaker 1: you see what happened was like Wow, there was probably
Speaker 1: a sense of inevitability about it because of his whole
Speaker 1: U S open sort of thing. It was a bit
Speaker 1: of this amp sneed he was open history. But on
Speaker 1: the other hand, the whole week, it felt like it
Speaker 1: was his tournament. As Brandle said, he's won two majors
Speaker 1: in a row. Um Tiger missed the cut. I think
Speaker 1: for the first time in a major maybe um um yeah.
Speaker 1: As a pro m. I think Earl had died just
Speaker 1: after the Masters, maybe his father passed, so it was
Speaker 1: a tough period. He turned out without your practice, so
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody held it against him. But it
Speaker 1: was like, as you said, Phil's time for shine, and
Speaker 1: he was sort of it was his coronation, right, he
Speaker 1: was walking around New York. Of New York. The loved him.
Speaker 1: Um yeah. And I just this wasn't meant to be.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't I don't begrudge the driver. I
Speaker 1: think the addenth wingfoot is always a driver. Um. I
Speaker 1: don't understand the second shot. I've never understood why you
Speaker 1: wouldn't just pitch it out. And I had nine I
Speaker 1: drive and nine on him, and if he pitched it
Speaker 1: a hundred yards up the fairway, he would had eight
Speaker 1: yards and that's that's Phil's wheel had. I don't understand
Speaker 1: that second shot, not really the drive, but anyway, it
Speaker 1: worked out well for me. It was really it was
Speaker 1: so bizarre. Even the presentation there was no screen like
Speaker 1: they have these days, or there was just a leaderboard
Speaker 1: on one side of the one side of the eighteenth Green.
Speaker 1: I guess it's on the right hand side. So we
Speaker 1: went to presentation. The whole Green thought he'd made five.
Speaker 1: They never saw that. They thought his second shot went
Speaker 1: into the back banker, not his third shot. And so
Speaker 1: there's this whole one side of the thing saying, what
Speaker 1: are they all coming out for? Isn't there a playoff tomorrow?
Speaker 1: Because they didn't have a clue. It's only half the
Speaker 1: ad eighth Green spectators knew that it was over in
Speaker 1: the red carpet was coming out under the green stuff.
Speaker 1: So it was. It was a fascinating period. I mean,
Speaker 1: everybody's stories about it almost more fun than mine because
Speaker 1: there were so many different things that happened in the
Speaker 1: last hour. And I really only know, you know, from
Speaker 1: my perspective. You know, I was just trying to make
Speaker 1: power in the last few hours and see how it worked,
Speaker 1: you know. And I've watched it a few times. I
Speaker 1: haven't watched it too much, to be honest. I don't
Speaker 1: never really like watching my own Gulf tournaments back, I'd
Speaker 1: rather watch other people win tournaments. Finally enough, but um yeah,
Speaker 1: fascinating times interesting. Yeah, I mean it's I don't know
Speaker 1: what kind of adds to the film because in law
Speaker 1: a little bit done and it's like that sneat story.
Speaker 1: I mean, how did he not manage to win when
Speaker 1: he got so close so many times? He was arguably
Speaker 1: the best US Open player of my generation. Um, you
Speaker 1: always seemed to be in it, you know, I just
Speaker 1: couldn't get it over the line. Yeah, what a statement, right,
Speaker 1: I mean if I would have lost a lot of
Speaker 1: money on Phil finishing second, I've lost track that he
Speaker 1: as he finished second six times. I would have lost
Speaker 1: a lot of money on that. Now, I mean I
Speaker 1: would argue some of that has to do with bizarre circumstances.
Speaker 1: I would argue, you know, the graduated philosophy that the U.
Speaker 1: S g A adopted played into that. Um I would
Speaker 1: argue that the solid quirk goff ball had a lot
Speaker 1: to do with that, because even the straightest of hitters
Speaker 1: ended up in the rough more often, and that's where
Speaker 1: Phil lived. Um So there were there were things that
Speaker 1: that played into that, certainly, but just still the idea
Speaker 1: that that if you listed the top forty players of
Speaker 1: all time, Phil would be either be thirty nine or forty.
Speaker 1: In terms of accuracy, you know, in my book, I
Speaker 1: mean it's Sevy and Phil and and their neck and neck. Um,
Speaker 1: and I don't know who is the most most inaccurate.
Speaker 1: But and the fact that Phil would have could have
Speaker 1: easily won three or four US Opens is crazy to me.
Speaker 1: But that speaks to Phil's unbelievable talent and belief. You know,
Speaker 1: one of my favorite Phil Mickelson's stories is his friends.
Speaker 1: You would know these guys, Jeff. You know Rob MAGGINI, uh,
Speaker 1: Rob Mangini and of course Alan, you would have talked
Speaker 1: to Rob Mangini when here's a great source from my book. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I love Rob Mangini and Jim Strickland and their
Speaker 1: buds of mine. And uh Rob tells a story I
Speaker 1: might have even told this story to you, Alan, but
Speaker 1: tells a story about they had they had hired all
Speaker 1: these great instructors, Jeff. This fits perfect with what we
Speaker 1: were just talking about earlier. Um, they had hired all
Speaker 1: these great instructors to come in and work with the
Speaker 1: A s U team. I think it was Steve Lloyd,
Speaker 1: you know, you've got all these great instructors. Come in.
Speaker 1: We're gonna have the best instruction for this team. And
Speaker 1: they get there and everybody's there but Phil. And so
Speaker 1: Steve Lloyd says to Mangini, you know, go get Phil.
Speaker 1: I he's on the back of the range. Back there,
Speaker 1: go getting It's mandatory telling to get his ass up here.
Speaker 1: So Rob drives back there and he's like, hey, popping
Speaker 1: the cart. We gotta go. The guys are here, and
Speaker 1: he was like, I'm not going. He's like, there's not
Speaker 1: one thing those guys are gonna tell me that is
Speaker 1: gonna make me a better player. Not one thing nothing
Speaker 1: they're gonna tell me it's gonna make me better. And
Speaker 1: he was like, what are you talking about. These are
Speaker 1: the best teachers in the world. That flew all the
Speaker 1: way here. He's paying a no, not going to coach.
Speaker 1: Absolutely not a deal breaker. Nobody's messing with my golf swing.
Speaker 1: I didn't do that. I mean my job. I wasn't
Speaker 1: as good as Phil in college, but I wasn't that
Speaker 1: far off. I mean, you know I would have been
Speaker 1: in the top five. I think I got rated, you know,
Speaker 1: fourth best player in the country or something or um. So,
Speaker 1: I mean I was, but I didn't do that. I
Speaker 1: went and listen to him. Um and I think I
Speaker 1: think that that's that kind of belief is is as
Speaker 1: rare as the talent that Phil had. I would say, well,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry to break away from this thrilling podcast because Brann,
Speaker 1: she really is a riveting guest. But we have to
Speaker 1: pay a few bills. So we'd like to thank our sponsor,
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Speaker 1: As you surely know you know, Link Soul is a
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Speaker 1: to have some fun. We also have to pay the
Speaker 1: bills here at the fire Pit Collective. So back to
Speaker 1: ned a fourth. I mean, so Randle, as we're as
Speaker 1: we're sitting here having this this very pleasant chat, and
Speaker 1: you're you're clearly thoughtful and soft spoken and and um discreet,
Speaker 1: and you don't want to don't want hurt anyone's feelings
Speaker 1: when you're talking about these instructors. Um, I'm sure that
Speaker 1: some of the listeners are thinking, I thought I thought
Speaker 1: Brandle was this fire breathing dragon who's the most polarizing
Speaker 1: guy in the golf media. And I'm wondering, Um, how
Speaker 1: you know this seems I think for getting a glimpse
Speaker 1: of who you really are right now. But how as
Speaker 1: as your persona has gotten so big in your place
Speaker 1: in the game, and uh, how have you dealt with
Speaker 1: the blowback and the criticism and all that. Because it's
Speaker 1: something that that I deal with my professional life, Michael
Speaker 1: a little bit, but you're more on the on the
Speaker 1: front lines. It feels like, is it is it challenging
Speaker 1: for you? Is it something you enjoy, does it does
Speaker 1: inspire you to work harder? Like? How do you deal
Speaker 1: with all of them? Well, I tell you, in general,
Speaker 1: I'm a non confrontational person, which I think people would
Speaker 1: find bizarre, but I am. I I don't. I don't
Speaker 1: enjoy I enjoy getting along, I enjoy people. I love people.
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time, um with my friends,
Speaker 1: hanging out. My caddie used to always say that he
Speaker 1: could find me on the range because it would be
Speaker 1: where the largest group of people was. Because I enjoy
Speaker 1: a good laugh and I enjoy hanging out with people. Um.
Speaker 1: The nature of my job requires me to have an
Speaker 1: opinion on things. And and you know, I set in
Speaker 1: a spot where every two minutes someone turns to me
Speaker 1: and says, you know, why did that happen? And why
Speaker 1: did somebody win? Why did somebody lose? And I've always
Speaker 1: said that the world of analysis, I mean sports fans
Speaker 1: are very comfortable with what happened. You know, you know
Speaker 1: who won? This guy hit that many fairies like why
Speaker 1: did he win? Well, that guy made a twenty Jeff
Speaker 1: Jeff Overvie, he chipped in at seventeen and he he
Speaker 1: made this unbelievable part at eighteen. People are very comfortable
Speaker 1: with hearing that what makes people what pisces people off,
Speaker 1: as if you try to tell them why Jeff chipped
Speaker 1: in at seventeen, got up and down at eighteen, why
Speaker 1: Jim Fear came up short and com Montgomery came up
Speaker 1: short and Phil Nicholson mssed fairway and and those are
Speaker 1: hard things to divine out. They're not easy, and and
Speaker 1: they're always your opinion. But you know, as long as
Speaker 1: you're making your opinion, you should you should do your
Speaker 1: best to back it up in fact um. So I
Speaker 1: would just say that the hy tends to piss people off,
Speaker 1: but that's that's the world I live in. Why something happened,
Speaker 1: that's analysis to me. And it's not easy, you know.
Speaker 1: I I say all the time that if by the
Speaker 1: time I come on the air, everything that could possibly
Speaker 1: be said about the golf has been said. Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: we don't come until the golf is over, and so
Speaker 1: there's shows in the morning and the golf all day
Speaker 1: and then we come on. So you know, you sit
Speaker 1: there all day and you think, well, what hasn't been said?
Speaker 1: What's interesting to me? Uh? And how can I shed
Speaker 1: some light on it? And you know, you do a
Speaker 1: bit of digging um and and then you try to
Speaker 1: get it right. Uh. To your point about criticism, how
Speaker 1: do I handle it? I would say that criticism is important.
Speaker 1: I don't dismiss criticism. H. I think we can all
Speaker 1: learn from criticism. I think there's there's some truth, especially
Speaker 1: if it's well not to spend sleep, if it's coming
Speaker 1: from the right spot. Uh. You know, I don't look
Speaker 1: at Twitter for criticism. I look at colleagues and friends
Speaker 1: and uh. And I listened to tour players. Even if
Speaker 1: tour players if they get tested at me or they say,
Speaker 1: you know, I was wrong or you know or you know,
Speaker 1: you phrase that incorrectly, I listened to it. I think, Okay,
Speaker 1: where was I coming from when I said that? You know?
Speaker 1: And if a tour player directly confronts me, which happens
Speaker 1: a few times a year, I'll say, you know, was
Speaker 1: I wrong? Uh? And generally what happens, I'd say nine
Speaker 1: percent of the time they're like, well, I heard you
Speaker 1: said this. I said, well, I didn't I said this,
Speaker 1: and I said all these things before it, um and such.
Speaker 1: I said, I'll get you the tape if you want
Speaker 1: to see the tape. Ah, but it happens. You know golf,
Speaker 1: You know, being a broadcaster is not unlike being a golfer.
Speaker 1: You make mistakes, you make bogies. You know, you get
Speaker 1: things wrong. You know I have said things where I've
Speaker 1: upset people and I thought, wow, I never saw that coming,
Speaker 1: you know. I remember we had Roco mediate on. We
Speaker 1: were doing this piece on Jimmy Ballard, who I quite
Speaker 1: enjoyed Jimmy Ballard, and I I could, I could give
Speaker 1: you chapter in verse on why I think Jimmy Ballard
Speaker 1: was a marvelous teacher in spite of his you know,
Speaker 1: sort of almost revolutionary ideas about you know, rocking and blocking.
Speaker 1: And I always called it rocking and blocking wrongly, but
Speaker 1: that's I would refer to it that. I used to
Speaker 1: have a friend by the name of Dillard Pruett, and
Speaker 1: he would always set up and he would sort of
Speaker 1: slide and squat and then slide and squat and you know,
Speaker 1: like to tell you how straight he hit it. We
Speaker 1: were playing once in More early in the morning, and
Speaker 1: More had gone down the fairway and left this one strip. Okay, now,
Speaker 1: how wide is that? That's that's that's eight ft wide. Maybe. Uh.
Speaker 1: The other guy on our group, Fred was where said Dillard,
Speaker 1: I'll bet you a hard bucks you can't hit that strip.
Speaker 1: And uh and and Dillard back there, he back there,
Speaker 1: he line it up, line it up, and you had
Speaker 1: the one of the Wood brothers and were right down
Speaker 1: the middle and hit the damps drip. That's how straight
Speaker 1: Billard Prude hit it. And so I always thought of
Speaker 1: Dillard for its golf swing. Is you know, further evidence
Speaker 1: of Jimmy Ballard's theories. You know how something work. Would
Speaker 1: Jimmy Ballant hit it straight and you could point Curtis
Speaker 1: Strange work with Jimmy bout he was straight, and you
Speaker 1: could point big old guy Leonard Thompson didn't hit it far,
Speaker 1: but hit it damn straight. So anyway, we do this
Speaker 1: special on Jimmy Bower and in as we're going to break,
Speaker 1: I said, yeah, you know he was a rock and blocker.
Speaker 1: He taught rocking and blocking, which really isn't what he taught.
Speaker 1: He taught rocking and releasing. But I said rocking and
Speaker 1: blocking whatever. And it was a throwaway line going to break,
Speaker 1: and you know rock O Mediate came in the next day,
Speaker 1: just veins popping, pissed that I had referred to in
Speaker 1: a pejorative sense his teacher as a rock and blocker,
Speaker 1: and I and I and I thought, man, I apologize.
Speaker 1: I did not mean to do that. I've got a
Speaker 1: lot of great I got a lot of respect for
Speaker 1: Jimmy Bower what he does. Um. And so yeah, I
Speaker 1: take criticism to heart. I don't dismiss it. I listened
Speaker 1: to it. I sit down every single day trying to
Speaker 1: get it right. I sat down every single day trying
Speaker 1: to do research that uh, that I get excited about
Speaker 1: so I can share it with our viewers. Um. And
Speaker 1: And you know, it's not like I'm trying to be
Speaker 1: the tour players friends at all. I've I've I have
Speaker 1: tried to, and it's been hard for me because I
Speaker 1: really do enjoy people and I enjoy talking golf. But
Speaker 1: I've tried to stay distant from tour players, UM because
Speaker 1: I I want to be able to say nice things
Speaker 1: about tour players that I might not particularly like, and
Speaker 1: I want to be able to say critical things of
Speaker 1: tour players that I really like. I just don't want
Speaker 1: to be biased too. And we all suffer from our
Speaker 1: own biases. But I try to be as objective as
Speaker 1: I can be, and one of the ways to do that,
Speaker 1: for me at least, is to do my own homework. Um,
Speaker 1: I listened to them, for sure. I go in and
Speaker 1: read all their transcripts. When they talk to you, Allen
Speaker 1: or Michael or Jeff, I read their transcripts, and I
Speaker 1: try to read between the lines and do my job.
Speaker 1: The criticism that comes my way is just part of
Speaker 1: the job. But again I learned from it and I
Speaker 1: don't dismiss it. Well, before we let Brandon go the
Speaker 1: last chance to pick his brain, Michael or Jeff, What what? What?
Speaker 1: What are you cogitating on in there? Well, it would
Speaker 1: be hard to get it down to one because Brandon
Speaker 1: can go in so many different directions. But I wonder
Speaker 1: Brandon to get back to Sue what you know Jeff
Speaker 1: was talking about early on, and Alan was asking about
Speaker 1: early on. It. I know this will be hard to do.
Speaker 1: If you could distill it down to one thing of
Speaker 1: what you would like to do at sixty what you
Speaker 1: know now about sixty, I'm sure you can't be done.
Speaker 1: But to the Greek you can do it. Can you
Speaker 1: distill done one thing what you would like to do
Speaker 1: with your golf swing at this point that you hadn't
Speaker 1: done previously. Make as big a turn as I possibly
Speaker 1: can in both directions. Um. You know, there's there's all
Speaker 1: kinds of hurdles to that, and you know, uh, and
Speaker 1: I'm you know, I look at Tom Watson, um, and
Speaker 1: you know I was. I was lucky enough to qualify
Speaker 1: for the Senior Open another time at the World of them,
Speaker 1: I think the very next year, um so maybe two nineteen,
Speaker 1: a roll of them. And I've I've known Tom. Uh.
Speaker 1: We certainly weren't I wouldn't say friends, but we've always
Speaker 1: gotten along. We had mutual friends. And so I've known Tom,
Speaker 1: have been to dinner with him a few times. I've
Speaker 1: done some outies with Tom. And Tom was warming up
Speaker 1: beside me. We both share a love of horses and
Speaker 1: all that. So he was warming up beside me. We
Speaker 1: were the only two on the ranch, and and so
Speaker 1: we were just talking about you know, his I think
Speaker 1: we all know his warm up teap routine. He starts,
Speaker 1: he hits balls with a three earned or two earned,
Speaker 1: his first shot of the day, never a wedge. But
Speaker 1: I was watching him stretched and one of the things
Speaker 1: I've marveled about. Tom Is said, even at seventy years
Speaker 1: of age, his swing was just as long as it
Speaker 1: was when he was twenty nine. And so you know
Speaker 1: that big, beautiful movement where their hands are up here,
Speaker 1: a huge shoulder turn. You know that time and transition
Speaker 1: is gold. You know your swing gets shorter, you've got
Speaker 1: less time and transition, and you can't sequence things up
Speaker 1: very well. And and and I've argued this point a lot.
Speaker 1: You know, the guys that swing real long and have
Speaker 1: a real natural release, like Jeff Aligivi. As a matter
Speaker 1: of fact, Um, you know, Jeff, I would say, you
Speaker 1: hit the ball high, right. You hit the ball high,
Speaker 1: didn't you. I mean, you had a beautiful release. You're
Speaker 1: pretty high. I mean I just look at your golf
Speaker 1: swing and it looked like you hit it very high.
Speaker 1: And it seemed to me that people who hit it
Speaker 1: high were the best wedge players, the best scramblers, and
Speaker 1: the best putters. Uh. And I've argued for years the
Speaker 1: reason I think they're the best putters. And I'm thinking
Speaker 1: now of Ben Crenshaw comes to mind, or saving value
Speaker 1: Stairs comes to mind, or Tiger Woods comes to mind.
Speaker 1: Um or Jack Nicholas comes to mind, and all those
Speaker 1: players hit it high. And the reason I argue that
Speaker 1: hitting it high has dividends beyond just Ta Green is
Speaker 1: because if you're hitting high, your releases is generally speaking,
Speaker 1: it's not going to be a lot of forward shaffling.
Speaker 1: You're gonna be coming into the ball with a fairly
Speaker 1: neutral sort of attack angle. Of course, your hands are
Speaker 1: slightly ahead and releasing right, but you're but you're here.
Speaker 1: And I've always argued that the players that had a
Speaker 1: lot of forward shaff line and a lot of supernation
Speaker 1: on that left wrist, it creeps into your you're putting.
Speaker 1: It just creeps into it. Uh you know. Johnny Miller
Speaker 1: is a marvelous example. Um. It just has a way
Speaker 1: of creeping into it. Whereas the guys who hit a
Speaker 1: high they have this natural release with their putter, uh
Speaker 1: you know. And and and so I would say make
Speaker 1: as full as swing as you can in both directions
Speaker 1: because it pays dividends. You have all that time in
Speaker 1: transition to allow you to sequence up. It'll it will
Speaker 1: allow you to, at least in my view, to carry
Speaker 1: on being a good putter and a good wedge player.
Speaker 1: Um you know what, what what stops people from playing
Speaker 1: this game is they hurt, they can't hit it very far,
Speaker 1: they begin to get the yeps because you know it
Speaker 1: all kinds of grimlins in their head. Uh So the
Speaker 1: long swing is it pays dividends in my mind. It's
Speaker 1: it's a it's a real pleasure. Michael and Alan, uh
Speaker 1: and and Jeff. You know, I it's funny. I've spent
Speaker 1: as much time probably reading Jeff and and listening to
Speaker 1: Jeff as I have watching you play golf. But um,
Speaker 1: you know, I always look forward to what you have
Speaker 1: to say. And you've handled yourself a great class. And
Speaker 1: that's true of of of you guys as well, Michael
Speaker 1: and Allen. I really enjoy reading you all. Uh. I
Speaker 1: owe a huge debt to writers. H You know, it's
Speaker 1: one of the things that doesn't happen is often now,
Speaker 1: um is you know I used to just get up
Speaker 1: in the morning, get a coffee, and then get all
Speaker 1: the newspapers or periodicals and then read them. And as
Speaker 1: you read them, you you've learned from writers, and it
Speaker 1: it spurs you onto ideas. Uh And and now the
Speaker 1: whole world's taken a logging and uh, you know, it's
Speaker 1: harder and harder to find in depth, wonderfully written columns. Uh.
Speaker 1: So you guys are hard to work at that, and
Speaker 1: I am appreciative of it. Well, when I was an
Speaker 1: Internet sports illustrated, um I had I was. I dreamed
Speaker 1: of being a fact checker. That was a step up
Speaker 1: from being an intern, and eventually I got there. And
Speaker 1: one of the stories out of fact check was your
Speaker 1: Diary from Masters, which Gary Van Sickle was the ghostwriter
Speaker 1: on and um as as I'm sure you remember, Brandon,
Speaker 1: you played great at the start of that tournament, right
Speaker 1: and um and kind of you're nibbling around and that
Speaker 1: was I mean that was probably an eight page feature
Speaker 1: in the magazine, and um, I feel like that and
Speaker 1: then you and you and Van Sickle collaborated on a
Speaker 1: few different pieces, and um like that was kind of
Speaker 1: your your end, your your entry into the golf media,
Speaker 1: if you will. I mean you're still in you're playing days,
Speaker 1: but I feel like those stories kind of launched things
Speaker 1: a little bit. Yeah. Well, when I got on tour, uh,
Speaker 1: Gary reached out to me and asked me if I
Speaker 1: would write a once monthly column for Golf World and
Speaker 1: so in I started writing a column about you know,
Speaker 1: you know, being a rookie on tour and what it
Speaker 1: was like to be a rookie and so I and
Speaker 1: then I kept writing for Golf World, and then I
Speaker 1: would write pieces here and there from for Sports Illustrated.
Speaker 1: And I always wrote them. Um, I always have these around.
Speaker 1: I would always write them on the yellow leopads and
Speaker 1: uh and I would fact the story the Van Sickle
Speaker 1: and then you know he'd clean it up. Um. But yeah,
Speaker 1: the ninety nine Masters is what that was. But I did, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I did, you know, I did write I think
Speaker 1: the column. I still get a lot of people talking about.
Speaker 1: I wrote about all the free crap you get as
Speaker 1: a as a touring professional. You know. I can remember
Speaker 1: when I turned and I got paired with this fellow
Speaker 1: named David Sutherland. Do you you ever played with David
Speaker 1: Zello and Jeff Okay? So, yeah, Kevin brother. So he
Speaker 1: was he was he was a bit sloppy, you know. Uh,
Speaker 1: him would be out of his pants. He was un
Speaker 1: untied and messed up. So I got paired with them
Speaker 1: one year at the Hawaii the very first time of
Speaker 1: the year and he's walking, We're walking off the first
Speaker 1: scene and his shoes are a mess, hymns out of
Speaker 1: his pants. He's a mess. And I said, David, I said,
Speaker 1: you know, you can call foot joint and they will
Speaker 1: send you a dozen pair of foot joints. And uh,
Speaker 1: he goes get out of here. And I was like, no, no,
Speaker 1: you're you're on tour. They'll send you whatever. You want.
Speaker 1: To know, they won't. I'm like, yes, they will, they will.
Speaker 1: So I had written a column about, you know, like
Speaker 1: you would die for a free set of anything. When
Speaker 1: you were in amateur golfer they didn't give stuff away.
Speaker 1: Uh then they do now not then? You know, just
Speaker 1: you know, bought clubs, you bought balls, you about shoes.
Speaker 1: But I remember, you know, getting on tour, the three
Speaker 1: dozen golf balls and five gloves and any shoes you wanted,
Speaker 1: and all the hats you wanted and all the shirts
Speaker 1: you wanted. It's like, good Lord, every day is Christmas
Speaker 1: on the PGA Tour. I get to play the best
Speaker 1: golf course in the world and they're paying me for this.
Speaker 1: Are you kidding me? So anyway, I wrote a column
Speaker 1: about that, and I and somebody you know, all these
Speaker 1: people wrote in uh, because I said, you know, I
Speaker 1: have all these shoes and I don't wear them, and
Speaker 1: they were like, well, would you send me the shoes
Speaker 1: you're not wearing. So I literally sent out twenty pairs
Speaker 1: of shoes two people that were my size. So anyway, Uh,
Speaker 1: the original point I was making was gratitude writers, so
Speaker 1: uh and I do. I really do so. I I
Speaker 1: enjoy your alas. Uh. You alls worked very much. Um,
Speaker 1: so thank you for having me on. I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it op our past across at some point
Speaker 1: this year. Yes, thanks for having that was great. Thanks Jeff,
Speaker 1: Thanks Michael, Thanks Alan. Yeah. So now we have a tradition, Brandle,
Speaker 1: where you're gonna you're gonna e the podcast and we're
Speaker 1: gonna we're gonna critique you as if we were Brandle
Speaker 1: Shamblee sitting in the big chair and at Alive from
Speaker 1: so clicked a little red button there and then we're
Speaker 1: gonna we're gonna we're gonna talk about your performance here.
Speaker 1: But alright, alright, cheers, cheers, guys, take care that that
Speaker 1: was a good fun. Wow, he's good, good guest. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well done, Michael. I think we know it wasn't me,
Speaker 1: but someone might may have broken it along the way.
Speaker 1: But yeah, no, but that's why. You know, it's funny
Speaker 1: that I know I said on the podcast, But you know,
Speaker 1: he's obviously such a thoughtful guy. And um, you know,
Speaker 1: it's funny how he's become such a lightning rod. But
Speaker 1: I think it's because he's so good at his job.
Speaker 1: I mean, like he said, his job is to give
Speaker 1: opinions and he doesn't hold back, and that's that's a rarity.
Speaker 1: And as he said, it's it's bad. It's he's not
Speaker 1: just spouting off. I mean it's grounded in his research
Speaker 1: and and and people he's talked to and shot linked
Speaker 1: data and everything else. But when he when you believe something,
Speaker 1: he he's all in out. That's what makes him such
Speaker 1: a good analyst. Well that's the job, right, I mean, like,
Speaker 1: the job is to have an opinion, and he does
Speaker 1: it with research and um no, god, professional golfers, tour players,
Speaker 1: my peers don't generally take criticism very well. So um um,
Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean he shouldn't do it, you know. Um,
Speaker 1: it's interesting who doesn't tune in. I mean, I've never
Speaker 1: watched life from two be fair except for it the Majors,
Speaker 1: and then I watched the Majors and I think him
Speaker 1: and um no below, I've had a fantastic time going
Speaker 1: back and forward and to hear two sensible, intelligent people
Speaker 1: world research argue the same point from other from each
Speaker 1: side of the argument is fantastic viewing. You know, it's entertaining,
Speaker 1: you know. Now McGinley is just as good, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's been a great show. It's really
Speaker 1: added to the Master's week and he was open week
Speaker 1: and I mean before the coverage rent away and then
Speaker 1: we just had to kind of talk about it with
Speaker 1: our friends. But now we actually get more golf, you know. So, um,
Speaker 1: he's a great addition to the golf land, this guy.
Speaker 1: But it's not that because he cares so much. You know,
Speaker 1: he's a lawfa But I feel like, you know, for
Speaker 1: for you, Jeff, as as Brandal said, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of people would love to hire you as as an
Speaker 1: analyst at some point, but I'm not sure you would
Speaker 1: let it rip in the same way. You're You're you're
Speaker 1: so discreet and you seem to care so much that, um,
Speaker 1: you know, it is the job. But it's not It's
Speaker 1: not a job for everybody, right, Like, it takes a
Speaker 1: certain personality type as well. Well, I mean, I'm not gleateful,
Speaker 1: in my opinion, giving like some golf routerers and stuff,
Speaker 1: right he he's not gleateful lot And you feel like sometimes,
Speaker 1: I mean, Johnny was, Johnny loved it, and he Johnny
Speaker 1: loves sort of got out of the fence, and I
Speaker 1: thought Johnny was great entertainment. Um. Randall same, a little
Speaker 1: more hesitant, but he still guys because he believes what
Speaker 1: he's saying. You know, I think it's interesting. I don't know,
Speaker 1: I would probably sit on the fence more than I
Speaker 1: should for that role, you know, I kind of well,
Speaker 1: I mean I think you would. You would do, Jeff.
Speaker 1: I imagine you would do just as Randall did. You'd
Speaker 1: find your own way at it. I mean, it was
Speaker 1: amazing why I had never thought of it this way.
Speaker 1: But you know, al when you guess in the question
Speaker 1: about well he was talking about he's going on the
Speaker 1: air after everything's already happened, I never thought of his
Speaker 1: job that way before. Um, and of course, but he
Speaker 1: says something very original all the time. And if Jeff
Speaker 1: did it I think Jeff would talk about very much
Speaker 1: from his own perspective of what it's like to be
Speaker 1: a player at the highest possible levels of the game,
Speaker 1: which Randall didn't have at times he did, but not
Speaker 1: not to Jeff's degree. So, Jeff, you would bring the
Speaker 1: wrong thing to it, just like you know, Alan does
Speaker 1: this thing differently than I do my thing. But we
Speaker 1: do basically the same thing, but but but differently. So
Speaker 1: you know, let me keep John to hit the ball
Speaker 1: and we'll just do this every now and then. Yeah,
Speaker 1: although you know what I mean, I feel listen what
Speaker 1: Randalls saying. I feel that too. And by the time
Speaker 1: I sit down to right say a game story for
Speaker 1: the Masters, everyone's been tweeting about it exhaustively, and brand
Speaker 1: has been on TV talking about it like. That's the
Speaker 1: challenge for you and I, Michael, is what can we
Speaker 1: give people to read at bedtime that they have they
Speaker 1: haven't already heard or seen Like it used to be,
Speaker 1: you know, you'd have you take, you spend all night
Speaker 1: your stories do the next day it would come out
Speaker 1: in the magazine too or three days later, and you
Speaker 1: could some people would not have really tuned in, or
Speaker 1: they would have missed it or they hadn't seen the
Speaker 1: highlights or whatever, but now everyone knows everything instantly. I
Speaker 1: think our jobs, Um, I look at it the the exact
Speaker 1: same way the Brandle does, Like what can I give
Speaker 1: people they haven't already had because they've had a hell
Speaker 1: of a lot, even by eight pm on you know,
Speaker 1: Master Sunday or US Open Sunday. So I relate to
Speaker 1: what he's saying that that's that's the challenge that an
Speaker 1: ever crowded and faster media environment. It's making you better,
Speaker 1: I hope, well, I hope. So it definitely makes you
Speaker 1: think about things differently. You just can't write the obvious
Speaker 1: story because it's just it's two. It's it's two is done,
Speaker 1: that's picked over. Yeah, yep, I completely agree with that.
Speaker 1: You know, I said to my friend McDonald will sometimes
Speaker 1: stopped on Sunday night after after a major and I'll
Speaker 1: say I would say that, you know, one thing I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna do. I'm not going to write the TV
Speaker 1: show is the TV show was the TV show And
Speaker 1: I got to give you something that you're not going
Speaker 1: to get from the TV show. But just what one
Speaker 1: quick note about Randol and that this whole what our
Speaker 1: fifteen or so that we had together. It's the golf
Speaker 1: swing and the golfer and that stationary ball. There must
Speaker 1: be an absolute magic to it, because there's so much
Speaker 1: craziness going on in the golf game in professional golf
Speaker 1: right now, and the three of us are all very,
Speaker 1: very familiar with it, and there wasn't even a temptation
Speaker 1: really to go down that road because we're so enjoying
Speaker 1: talking about the challenges of the game that haven't really changed.
Speaker 1: But I would say haven't changed at all for four years,
Speaker 1: which is of course part of the greatness of the
Speaker 1: old Worse, which we talked about earlier and we'll probably
Speaker 1: always talk about. But I think it was neat for
Speaker 1: that hour twenty that we've been together that that drove
Speaker 1: the whole conversation. And that's because Brandle's starting point, like
Speaker 1: it is for for for the three of us, is
Speaker 1: love of golf. And you know, like I've heard from
Speaker 1: well just very great that you know, people say, no,
Speaker 1: you know, you should be so grateful Tiger you jous
Speaker 1: a Tiger. With all due respect to Tiger Woods, you know,
Speaker 1: I love golf. Who was writing golf before Tiger during
Speaker 1: Tiger and now after Tiger. Uh. But it's really the
Speaker 1: it's really the game that got us before the you know,
Speaker 1: the three of us in the four us of Brandle
Speaker 1: where there are very different backgrounds and interests and family
Speaker 1: histories and all the rest. It got us to this place.
Speaker 1: And that's incredibly neat. That's absolutely well. I think that's
Speaker 1: a that's a great ending point for this need of
Speaker 1: fourth Jeff, you have something, I say, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: that's okay. I think I think Black Marko hinted at um.
Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be great if there was fun and simple,
Speaker 1: sort of unifying theory behind golf and we could all
Speaker 1: just boke out there and just put it into place
Speaker 1: and hit it. But that's the point, right, It's like that.
Speaker 1: Did you watch that Stephen Hawking movie recently where his
Speaker 1: dream was this simple elegant equation that explained it all?
Speaker 1: You know, the theory is what we're all looking for,
Speaker 1: this simple elegant equation that explains this unified theory that
Speaker 1: explains everything. But we're never going to find it. That's
Speaker 1: the But that's why we play. I think at the core,
Speaker 1: the very very very cool thing is that we go
Speaker 1: and hit a golf ball and we make a move
Speaker 1: that we think is going to make the ball go
Speaker 1: one way and it goes the other way. For the
Speaker 1: rest of your life trying to work out why. I
Speaker 1: think you would hit that, and that's why the whole
Speaker 1: thing exists. I think you would hate that if there's
Speaker 1: one simple theory that made golf easy, because I think
Speaker 1: the quest is what inspires. You got a bet every day,
Speaker 1: so I don't think you actually appreciate that if if
Speaker 1: all of a sudden it got figured out and distilled,
Speaker 1: it's the it's the idea. It's the idea of trying
Speaker 1: to look for it. That's the joy. Right, Maybe it's there,
Speaker 1: you know. If you didn't think it was there, you
Speaker 1: wouldn't bother, you know. But maybe it's there. All right. Well,
Speaker 1: this has been another need of fourth Um. It's always
Speaker 1: always a pleasure to get together with two great minds
Speaker 1: of the game, plus Brandon this time. So Michael, thanks
Speaker 1: for making that happen. We will be back at it
Speaker 1: again with with more eclectic guests. UM, I'm going to
Speaker 1: sign off here for Michael Bamberger and Jeff Ogilvie. This
Speaker 1: is aland Schip Nuk. This is needed for, thank you
Speaker 1: for listening, and uh we'll do it again soon. Mm
Speaker 1: hm oh my god, it's a dangerous group here